Will 50mbit become traffic managaged when 100mbit comes out?

[|Kippa|]

Will 50mbit become traffic managaged when 100mbit comes out like the lower tiers?

[jb66]

Dunno, wil the 100mbit be traffic shaped when the 200mbit comes out?

[kwikbreaks]

If a company changes the T&C of a product it gives current customers the legal right to cancel the contract without penalty so if they do and you don't like that then you would be free to move on. Where to may be a little problematic of course...

[Peter_]

If a company changes the T&C of a product it gives current customers the legal right to cancel the contract without penalty so if they do and you don't like that then you would be free to move on. Where to may be a little problematic of course...
They can invoke Traffic Management or the Acceptable Use Policy on all tiers anytime that they want as the Terms and Conditions already have in place rules that govern this, so if they decided to traffic manage 50Mb tomorrow you would not have the legal right to cancel your contract.

[PeteLockwood]

it already is the AUP they send letters to people who actually use the service they pay for however the aup is loosely termed and if you wanted to cancel there aint a whole lot they can do

[PeteLockwood]

AUP yes but VM advertise the 50Mbps product as free of traffic management so either you are wrong or the VM adverts are - which is it?



vm, i have recieved 2 letters (different occasions) saying i have downloaded too much and when i rang on both occasions they said the SAME thing, you downloaded a lot, 30 gb, but are too retarded to know in what timeframe (or they just spout *****) so yeah, vm lie... clearly..

ps, it is NOT traffic management as such, but they are asking me to NOT download in peak times

[Peter_]

it already is the AUP they send letters to people who actually use the service they pay for however the aup is loosely termed and if you wanted to cancel there aint a whole lot they can do
But you will still be liable for the Early Disconnection Charges if still in contract so a lot they can do.

[PeteLockwood]

no, not at all, it is too loosely termed to be enforced, early disconnection maybe but on the ground of changing the goal posts so to speak ? as time goes by

[Peter_]

no, not at all, it is too loosely termed to be enforced, early disconnection maybe but on the ground of changing the goal posts so to speak ? as time goes by
It is already in the Terms and Conditions about them being able to change when required plus it is also covered by the Acceptable Use policy.

[PeteLockwood]

yes but like i said the aup is loosely termed all it says realy is "if you donwload too much..." what is too much ? 300 KB 300MB 300GB ?

[Peter_]

yes but like i said the aup is loosely termed all it says realy is "if you donwload too much..." what is too much ? 300 KB 300MB 300GB ?
You cannot use Traffic management though as a reason for breach of contract as it is covered by the Terms and Conditions which we all agree to as customers.

[zing_deleted]

poorly worded terms and conditions and loosely termed FUP could be classed as unfair business practices. The whole VM pricing and business structure is confusing to say the least and could if court proceedings were ever initiated could be a breach of business law I believe.

I personally have never signed a contract with VM, I have never ticked an electronic signature with VM either however I have been tied into a contract without ever actually being told. Now they would in court have to prove I agreed verbally and without that proof there can not be a contract can there?

[ethan103]

vm, i have recieved 2 letters (different occasions) saying i have downloaded too much and when i rang on both occasions they said the SAME thing, you downloaded a lot, 30 gb, but are too retarded to know in what timeframe (or they just spout *****) so yeah, vm lie... clearly..

ps, it is NOT traffic management as such, but they are asking me to NOT download in peak times


30GB??

What the hell do you download???

[Peter_]

poorly worded terms and conditions and loosely termed FUP could be classed as unfair business practices. The whole VM pricing and business structure is confusing to say the least and could if court proceedings were ever initiated could be a breach of business law I believe.

I personally have never signed a contract with VM, I have never ticked an electronic signature with VM either however I have been tied into a contract without ever actually being told. Now they would in court have to prove I agreed verbally and without that proof there can not be a contract can there?
By paying you actually agree the Terms and Conditions as you have accepted the contract by doing so.;)

[General Maximus]

so let this be a lesson, by giving VM your money you are actually agreeing to let them screw you over whenever they want.

Back to the main question though, I cant see 50mbit being traffic managed as there will be no need for it. They said that only something like 9% of customers were on 20mbit (before 50 came out), then 5% were on 50mbit which is on docsis 3 so I am going to go for 1% on 100mbit. There won't be any need to traffic manage because so few customers will be using docsis 3. I know the 20mbit peeps are on it with us as well but I think they are using the docsis 3 hardware but running docsis 2 (or however it works). So I can't see a problem.

[pigpen]

30GB??

What the hell do you download???

That's nothing. My record is somewhere around the 500GB mark but even that's small fry compared to some.

Of course, that's the reason why I'm on 50 meg in the first place.

[pip08456]

Correct!!!

[AbyssUnderground]

That's nothing. My record is somewhere around the 500GB mark but even that's small fry compared to some.

Of course, that's the reason why I'm on 50 meg in the first place.

That's nothing either. I did 850GB one month, and consistently did over 500GB for about 6 months on the trot. No letter. Go figure.

[AdamD]

According to my router...

August 2010 (Incoming: 361383 MB / Outgoing: 27221 MB)

I must confess to being shocked at that figure heh.

[PeteLockwood]

my router says, August 2010 (Incoming: 209083 MB / Outgoing: 6483 MB)

hardly the end of the world, i do believe it will be traffic managed as they will want to give people a reason to upgrade (not just higher speed)

[Sirius]

You cannot use Traffic management though as a reason for breach of contract as it is covered by the Terms and Conditions which we all agree to as customers.

But they are not allowed to invoke a rule if they do not give the rules that you must obey.

How can they send you a letter and bang on about you having exceed there secret limit when they do not give the limit for fear of then not being able to say they are unlimited ??????.


In other words imagine being fined for speeding on a road that they refuse to tell you the speed limit on :mad:

[Peter_]

But they are not allowed to invoke a rule if they do not give the rules that you must obey.

How can they send you a letter and bang on about you having exceed there secret limit when they do not give the limit for fear of then not being able to say they are unlimited ??????.


In other words imagine being fined for speeding on a road that they refuse to tell you the speed limit on :mad:
You know that they have it all covered by the Terms and Conditions and the Acceptable Use Policy that we all agree to simply by becoming customers and paying the bill each month.

I do not make the rules or enforce them either, it is your ISP.

[Sirius]

You know that they have it all covered by the Terms and Conditions and the Acceptable Use Policy that we all agree to simply by becoming customers and paying the bill each month.

I do not make the rules or enforce them either, it is your ISP.

Well i will not be even considering those rules unless they tell me what they are. How can they send me a letter and then tell me on the phone that i must lower my usage if i don't know what the sodding amount is that they want me not to exceed. Trust me my answer would be sod off in short jerky movement until you give me the amount and i would only except that in writing.

No judge would allow that rule to stand up in court.

You know that they have it all covered by the Terms and Conditions and the Acceptable Use Policy that we all agree to simply by becoming customers and paying the bill each month.

I do not make the rules or enforce them either, it is your ISP.

So can you show me the limit that would make me exceed those terms and conditions and what limit would make them enforce the AUP, Because without that simple bit of information they can not enforce there secret limits in front of a judge, Why because he would need to know what they are as well ???


I understand that there must be rules set on usage, But if you are going to set limits then they need to be clearly stated in the terms and conditions and in the AUP.

[Peter_]

Well i will not be even considering those rules unless they tell me what they are. How can they send me a letter and then tell me on the phone that i must lower my usage if i don't know what the sodding amount is that they want me not to exceed. Trust me my answer would be sod off in short jerky movement until you give me the amount and i would only except that in writing.

No judge would allow that rule to stand up in court.
As with all agreements we are expected to read them and when they are used against us we cannot then stand up when questioned and say "Oh I did not know that was there" as by either signing or paying we have agreed to them.



So can you show me the limit that would make me exceed those terms and conditions and what limit would make them enforce the AUP, Because without that simple bit of information they can not enforce there secret limits in front of a judge, Why because he would need to know what they are as well ???


Now to get back on the actual topic which is about them possibly traffic managing 50Mb once 100Mb comes in, the would be plenty of notice if this were to happen which would be covered by the Terms and Conditions of your contract, so we would all know the exact amounts of data that you could download and the time limits involved.

So very much a catch 22 situation anyway.

I realise that this is not what people want toi hear but someone has to be Devils Advocate.

[Sirius]

As with all agreements we are expected to read them and when they are used against us we cannot then stand up when questioned and say "Oh I did not know that was there" as by either signing or paying we have agreed to them.



Ok then whats the limit that i have agreed to so i know at which point i need to stop my downloads ?????

[jb66]

Cant you just download overnight rather than 24/7? I download bluerays myself but tend to do it when i go to bed as im on 20mb and get shaped.

Maybe there isnt a set limit as every UBR is diffrent. There is no point sending out a letter to customer who is on a UBR with 10% utilisation. But with ones who are on a higher utilisation are having an effect on other users.

Sirius, its a shame you edited your post, it did make me chuckle. Virgin wouldnt take you to court, they would disconnect you. They are a private business and can choose who they dont want as a customer.

[Peter_]

Ok then whats the limit that i have agreed to so i know at which point i need to stop my downloads ?????
We have as much information as you do regards the limits for receiving a AUP letter on 50Mb, no one tells us and we can end up taking a call from someone who has received one and I have no information to give them.

But this is not the subject of this thread.

[PeteLockwood]

what limit did i break when i recieved a letter telling me to not use my internet connection between 9 and 9 ?

[techguy]

... if they decided to traffic manage 50Mb tomorrow you would not have the legal right to cancel your contract.

Well, let's just look at that statement and debunk a few inaccuracies ... You CAN cancel when Virgin do something like that. It's covered under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (and a remedy of which is incorporated into most good consumer contracts including Virgin's On-cable and Off-cable contract).

Section H, Condition 2g; "..you will have the right to cancel the affected services or end these agreements if the changes are significant, as described in paragraph J5."



Section J, Condition 5c ; If,
Virgin Media Ltd, Virgin Media Entertainment and/or Virgin Media Payments make significant changes to the terms and conditions of these agreements (including the other legal stuff ),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving Virgin Media Ltd and/or Virgin Media Entertainment (as applicable) at least 30 days' notice in writing. If you cancel any services in these circumstances, any increased charges [if applicable] will not apply to those services during the 30-day notice period and paragraph J3 will not apply if you cancel before the end of the minimum period. If you do not give such notice of cancellation within 30 days of any increase in charges or changes to the services or this agreement being notified to you or, if later, receipt of your first bill following such increase in charges, Virgin Media, Virgin Media Entertainment (if applicable) and Virgin Media Payments will assume that you have accepted the increase in charges and/or the changes to the services and these agreements and you will no longer be able to cancel your services under this paragraph.


Source (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html#h)

[kwikbreaks]

I'm glad that you agree with the first sentence in my post which unfortunately seems to have started a row....
If a company changes the T&C of a product it gives current customers the legal right to cancel the contract without penalty...

The second bit though is really rather more important...
so if they do and you don't like that then you would be free to move on. Where to may be a little problematic of course...
if customers don't like the new limits just who will they switch to? Every ISP has an AUP (which usually covers illegal activities such as spamming etc.) and most have a FUP to cover excessive downloads. The only ISP I'm aware of that hasn't enforced their FUP is Be/O2 LLU and I don't see them being over popular with people on 50Mbps.

On 20Mbps the traffic management allows over 10GB per day during peak times without even being throttled so presumably any 50Mbps throttling would be more generous.

[Peter_]

Well, let's just look at that statement and debunk a few inaccuracies ... You CAN cancel when Virgin do something like that. It's covered under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (and a remedy of which is incorporated into most good consumer contracts including Virgin's On-cable and Off-cable contract).
Source (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html#h)
I have a much better idea why don't you try it and see how you get on and see if Virgin Media's corporate lawyers have actually got it wrong, do you think that a bunch of people just sat in a room a put ideas in a hat and whatever they picked out they went with those ideas.

I am always amazed how soapbox lawyers appear out of the woodwork with statements about the contract you have agreed to be unenforceable in the eyes of the law without resorting to googling "Facts" that have no bearing on your agreement.

All I can say is prove it can be done or face up to fact that the real lawyers actually know their jobs and can tie you up in knots.

Also I think that you will find that OFCOM have no issues at all with Virgin Media's Terms and Conditions or Acceptable Use Policy even if you do.

The last update of the Traffic Management rules were on the 12th May 2009 ( Oh by the way that was 10 years after 1999 if you were unsure )and OFCOM had no issue then, and if the is any future in the rules nor will they have an issue then as it follows their rule.

I do wish that people would read a bit more about this kind of thing before actually posting.

[General Maximus]

take a chill pill guys :Peaceman:

[Peter_]

take a chill pill guys :Peaceman:
No problem mate I just find it amusing that someone can try and use a 1999 regulation against the Terms and Conditions that will have been set out by Corporate Business lawyers who will know how to word documents and interpret regulations as laid down by OFCOM and the Government to ensure that they are as watertight as possible.;)

[Sirius]

No problem mate I just find it amusing that someone can try and use a 1999 regulation against the Terms and Conditions that will have been set out by Corporate Business lawyers who will know how to word documents and interpret regulations as laid down by OFCOM and the Government to ensure that they are as watertight as possible.;)

My last bit on this subject.

Masque

Are you happy that your Broadband could be disconnected because you have passed a limit that they will not tell that you have reached or passed.

Then even when you have the letter and you phone in to confirm this they still will not tell you what amount you did to meet that limit but instead continue to tell you that you have downloaded more than you are allowed by there secret limit.

That cannot be right.

[Peter_]

My last bit on this subject.

Masque

Are you happy that your Broadband could be disconnected because you have passed a limit that they will not tell that you have reached or passed.

Then even when you have the letter and you phone in to confirm this they still will not tell you what amount you did to meet that limit but instead continue to tell you that you have downloaded more than you are allowed by there secret limit.

That cannot be right.
Of course not who would honestly be happy with that happening, anyone that did say that they would be happy in that situation in my eyes would be seriously in need of some help.

All I am being here is Devil's Advocate with regards to the Terms and Conditions that we have all agreed to by paying for our services.

Of course not everybody believes that they can enforce the Terms and Conditions, and if that were the case they would be the first company unable to do so.

[zantarous]

I have a much better idea why don't you try it and see how you get on and see if Virgin Media's corporate lawyers have actually got it wrong, do you think that a bunch of people just sat in a room a put ideas in a hat and whatever they picked out they went with those ideas.


Actually that is exactly what happens, most companies put in ridiculous clauses into their T&Cs, all are just meaningless mumbo jumbo until challenged in court.

Imean I can sign a contract that to borrow money from a lender and they can put a T&C in there that if I don't pay they cab break my legs, but in reality they can't actually do that.

Additionally I signed my contract in 1997 I have never since received a new contract or new set of T&Cs, they didn't even have broadband back then. Usually T&Cs are given low priority until a dispute arises, most of these can easily be settled but when it goes to court some of these unfair ones, like writing to someone and telling them that they have gone over a secret limit, may be very hard to enforce.

[Peter_]

Actually that is exactly what happens, most companies put in ridiculous clauses into their T&Cs, all are just meaningless mumbo jumbo until challenged in court.
I
mean I can sign a contract that to borrow money from a lender and they can put a T&C in there that if I don't pay they cab break my legs, but in reality they can't actually do that.
As I said above try challenging it.:)

[kwikbreaks]

I've no idea what VM would or wouldn't do but O2 have allowed countless transgressors of their FUP on the Access product leave without penalty.

I read somewhere that a number of ISPs (and I think VM was included) had agreed to a maximum of £9 pcm remaining cancellation charge being introduced soon.

I personally cancelled a BT calls package recently that had 9 months to run without penalty when they moved the free calls hours (I already had an inkling I'd be leaving altogether).

In addition many will be out of minimum term and the average remaining term is only going to be 6 months. Risking the ire of 50Mbps customers who took the package on the understanding that there was no traffic management is something that VM would need to consider very carefully before doing that regardless of their legal ability to do so. The inevitable bad publicity alone would cost them new customers.

[techguy]

I have a much better idea why don't you try it and see how you get on and see if Virgin Media's corporate lawyers have actually got it wrong, do you think that a bunch of people just sat in a room a put ideas in a hat and whatever they picked out they went with those ideas.

I am always amazed how soapbox lawyers appear out of the woodwork with statements about the contract you have agreed to be unenforceable in the eyes of the law without resorting to googling "Facts" that have no bearing on your agreement.

All I can say is prove it can be done or face up to fact that the real lawyers actually know their jobs and can tie you up in knots.

Also I think that you will find that OFCOM have no issues at all with Virgin Media's Terms and Conditions or Acceptable Use Policy even if you do.

The last update of the Traffic Management rules were on the 12th May 2009 ( Oh by the way that was 10 years after 1999 if you were unsure )and OFCOM had no issue then, and if the is any future in the rules nor will they have an issue then as it follows their rule.

I do wish that people would read a bit more about this kind of thing before actually posting.

Funny that, I don't recall mentioning OFCOM. But maybe I wasn't clear on one aspect....

The law may go back to 1999 but it's still in force - shortened to UTCCR (Unfair Terms Consumer Contracts Regulation). It's been used countless times by savvy consumers keen to break out of contracts when changes are made to conditions or product. In fact, Orange had to publicly cancel an impending change to their agreements, when their customer churn began to be affected. Many of those were on 24 month contracts. In fact, you can easily worm out of contracts when an impending change has been notified to you. You then have a grace period in which to leave (normally 28 days under the statutory powers) if you do not agree to the change to your terms and conditions .. but only if the changes constitute a 'material' change to your enjoyment of the product or service.

I hope that is useful.

Oh and it's not just the UTCCR that protects you. Virgin Media's own contract protects you too. Please re-read the quotes I posted or check the full Virgin contract out by following the link. It seems their legal beagles have done their homework after all!

[General Maximus]

at the end of the day guys we can argue the point all we want. We all know VM are in the wrong but if you feel that strongly about it and genuinely believe you can win, then stand up and fight them if and when they change something that you don't like. I cant see them introducing stm on 50mbit but if they do, then go for it and kick their ass.

[PeteLockwood]

i will continue to download what I want when I want and i will continue to pay my bills IF they tell me they are chargeing my / terminating my contract i will say ok but u get **** ALL OFF ME :)

[Peter_]

Funny that, I don't recall mentioning OFCOM. But maybe I wasn't clear on one aspect....

The law may go back to 1999 but it's still in force - shortened to UTCCR (Unfair Terms Consumer Contracts Regulation). It's been used countless times by savvy consumers keen to break out of contracts when changes are made to conditions or product. In fact, Orange had to publicly cancel an impending change to their agreements, when their customer churn began to be affected. Many of those were on 24 month contracts. In fact, you can easily worm out of contracts when an impending change has been notified to you. You then have a grace period in which to leave (normally 28 days under the statutory powers) if you do not agree to the change to your terms and conditions .. but only if the changes constitute a 'material' change to your enjoyment of the product or service.

I hope that is useful.

Oh and it's not just the UTCCR that protects you. Virgin Media's own contract protects you too. Please re-read the quotes I posted or check the full Virgin contract out by following the link. It seems their legal beagles have done their homework after all!
As I have said I am just being Devil's Advocate here but I do know that Virgin Media are pretty good on the legal side.

[PeteLockwood]

As I have said I am just being Devil's Advocate here but I do know that Virgin Media are pretty good on the legal side.

clearly they are NO good as advice or whatever given to employees, is errrr useless ?

[Peter_]

clearly they are NO good as advice or whatever given to employees, is errrr useless ?
Such as any examples?

[PeteLockwood]

this thread ? the fact being your "flexible" terms and conditions are ultimately, utterly unenforcable you can cut off the "top 1%" or whatever crap it is you spout (as a company not you personally) but without set limits (seem to be made up on a per person basis) your terms are too loose to be enforcable perhaps? and ultimately mean as much as a guarantee on a stolen phone ?

[pip08456]

Such as any examples?

I think he's referring to the fact that even employees on the front line don't know what the limits are.:D

[BenMcr]

the fact being your "flexible" terms and conditions are ultimately, utterly unenforcableWhat fact? Unless it gets to court and someone wins, then it's an opinion

[PeteLockwood]

no, it is a FACT the terms are loose as there is no set limit!

[broadbandking]

End of the day Virgin have only asked you to move your downloading habits to a less busier time, what wrong with that, if some one was downloading loads and it was causing your connection to be slow, then you would be the first person too complain, VM don't need limits they will just see your downloading alot and ask you too cut it down or do it out of peak hours.

Most people are only downloading warez, I am sure your cam rips and other stuff can wait.

As for the 50Mb tier been STM'd, I don't think it will be as I can see ISP's moving towards application shaping, which is more user friendly.

[PeteLockwood]

i pay good money for my service i intend to use it when I want NOT when virgin want me too ? what if my working life conflicts with there unofficial policy of download after 9 ?

[Peter_]

I think he's referring to the fact that even employees on the front line don't know what the limits are.:D
The Acceptable Use Policy has nothing to do with us but we are all aware of the Traffic Management limits.

[broadbandking]

i pay good money for my service i intend to use it when I want NOT when virgin want me too ? what if my working life conflicts with there unofficial policy of download after 9 ?

So tell me PeteL, what is it you download daily and amounts to soo many gigs of data?

[PeteLockwood]

i do not actually use it that great i would say around 50gb a week but that is not the point

[broadbandking]

i do not actually use it that great i would say around 50gb a week but that is not the point

Yes it is, VM aren't imposing hard limits, they are simply saying you seem to be downloading a lot please move your downloading to less busy times, 50Gb a week is it all legal stuff your downloading or you getting your TV shows and films fix.

[Peter_]

Remember guys that this thread is about the possibility of 50Mb being traffic managed once 100Mb is rolled out and not about your present download amounts.

I rather doubt that 50Mb will be traffic managed due to it being on the DOCSIS 3 platform.

[PeteLockwood]

xbox 360 gaming skyplayer cyanogen nightlys (android phone updates) general internet browsing and of course usenet every now and again, hardly the end of the world, is it ?

[broadbandking]

Remember guys that this thread is about the possibility of 50Mb being traffic manged once 100Mb is rolled out and not about your present download amounts.

I rather doubt that 50Mb will be traffic managed due to it being on the DOCSIS 3 platform.

I can see that the traffic management system will changed to appilication shaping as overall it would be fairer, ooo Masque you sound like a Mod then, have you through about applying lol, don't asnwer that as its not allowed.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:07 ----------

xbox 360 gaming skyplayer cyanogen nightlys (android phone updates) general internet browsing and of course usenet every now and again, hardly the end of the world, is it ?

No it isn't the end of the world, its just if your UBR is overloaded, due to your on a share connection VM are just trying to ensure people get a good level of service, and people hammering connection should move to less busy times, plus I doubt 50Gb a week for what you've just listed.

[Peter_]

I can see that the traffic management system will change to appilication shaping as overall it would be fairer, ooo Masque you sound like a Mod then, have you through about applying lol, don't asnwer that as its not allowed.
It is just that this thread keeps getting people banging on about how much they have downloaded rather than the real question about traffic management.

Come on guys if it happened what would you do about it, would you complain or just go up a tier.

[broadbandking]

Wouldn't bother me really as I doubt me playing Call of duty online would put me over the limits, plus with the amount of downloading I do I would be well under the limits, I download are 1gb a week and that's it really.

[TonyHoyle]

If it happened - given that the main reason I'm on 50mb is because it doesn't have any - I'd raise a stink until it was either removed or I left. Good connectivity is something I rely on (and pay for.. twice, given that virgin is just used as a tunnel to my real ISP).

[pip08456]

The Acceptable Use Policy has nothing to do with us but we are all aware of the Traffic Management limits.

Which is exactly what I said. There are no traffic management limits on 50Mb and to be sent a letter asking you to change your unacceptable downloading habits to a different time is invoking the AUP.

When someone ringing in asks what AUP is you don't have the info to tell them.

It doesn't effect me but I can see where some may be coming from.

[kwikbreaks]

> I'd raise a stink until it was either removed or I left.

but where would you go?

[Peter_]

> I'd raise a stink until it was either removed or I left.

but where would you go?
Some think BT Infinity if you believe all the hype.;)

[kwikbreaks]

Yeah right...

As I said in the thread about that the other day - the only possible use I'd have for BT Infinity is as a negotiating point if trying to squeeze something extra from VM.

If those considering it as an option because VM are complaining about their downloading habits care to look back in the forum I posted a link the other day to a BT document which was proudly announcing that they'd increased their data cap from 100GB to 300GB (per month that is not daily :) )

[Peter_]

Yeah right...

As I said in the thread about that the other day - the only possible use I'd have for BT Infinity is as a negotiating point if trying to squeeze something extra from VM.


Could be worthwhile if it is released in your area.:)

[kwikbreaks]

No date set so far as I know and I'm pretty sure retentions would know that too so I won't be embarrassing myself anytime soon.

[Zapp79]

Come on guys if it happened what would you do about it, would you complain or just go up a tier.

You asked, so I answer....

I would be on the phone to complain, demanding that I receive the level of service that I am contracted to (ie: one without any limits). If that means I need to get lifted to 100mb then, as far as I am concerned, whatever. If it means that I stay on 50mb with restored 'unlimited' capacity, great.

If I get no joy, I will take my £780/year elsewhere.

For those within a 'lock-in' period (doesn't affect me - been with VM/NTL for 11 years) they can walk without restriction. As stated by others, the UTCCRs are valid and apply to this scenario.

By daring to claim anything like 'unlimited' on their products, VM would also fall foul of the Misrepresentation Act, 1967. This would also apply to those scenarios stated earlier, where there are unwritten / unknown threshold values defining Acceptable Use. By default, any such threshold value is a limit and the service cannot be called 'unlimited'.

All that guff earlier in this thread about 'try it in court, see how you get on' is just that, guff. The onus would be on VM to try to take action in court to enforce the contract that they perceive to be valid. The consumer just needs to give notice and cancel their Direct Debit.

Now, go on VM, if you are so confident of your T's & C's, take it to court and see how long it is before you are thrown out or hit with a nice counter-claim. :rolleyes:

Buy anyway - isn't this all somewhat hypothetical? I wasn't aware that there are any definite costs / plans for 100mb yet, let alone service changes to the 50mb product when the new top speed is released?? Has it even been confirmed that 50mb customers definitely won't be migrated to 100mb by default? (As has always been the case, all old tiers migrate in turn).

[BenMcr]

Has it even been confirmed that 50mb customers definitely won't be migrated to 100mb by default? (As has always been the case, all old tiers migrate in turn).
50Mbit customers definately won't be upgraded by default. 100Mbit will be seperate tier, just as 50Mbit was/is

[Zapp79]

new tier = new price bracket ABOVE 50mb?

or new tier taking the 50mb price bracket?

[BenMcr]

new tier = new price bracket ABOVE 50mb?

or new tier taking the 50mb price bracket?Pricing details haven't been announced yet.

Though personally with the amount of upgrade work Virgin are having to do to support it, I'm pretty sure it will be more expensive than 50Mbit currently is

[Zapp79]

A bit off topic, I know, but there can't be much headroom on the current 50mb price, surely?! Continual improvement to network capacity is the nature of the business - VM can't reasonably complain about that, and shouldn't be surprised by it either!

10mb/20mb are starting to age as products go, just as 512k, 1mb, 2mb etc did before. The 10mb service, heavily traffic managed and at £12.50, is now pretty poor value compared to some of the ADSL competition.

I would have thought it made more sense to drop 10mb next spring, offer 20mb as the basic, then 50mb and 100mb the new top tier with a 200mb 'super-tier' blowing the socks off the competition in late 2011/2012.

There is currently about £8 between each tier, so, logically a new tier above 50mb would be priced at £36. Fair enough, I think folk would pay a small charge for new hardware to support the faster speed - but not sure many would adopt if the monthly payment rose significantly. I don't think I would unless upload speeds were dramatically increased.

I guess we will see in the fullness of time.

[jb66]

You asked, so I answer....

I would be on the phone to complain, demanding that I receive the level of service that I am contracted to (ie: one without any limits). If that means I need to get lifted to 100mb then, as far as I am concerned, whatever. If it means that I stay on 50mb with restored 'unlimited' capacity, great.

If I get no joy, I will take my £780/year elsewhere.

For those within a 'lock-in' period (doesn't affect me - been with VM/NTL for 11 years) they can walk without restriction. As stated by others, the UTCCRs are valid and apply to this scenario.

By daring to claim anything like 'unlimited' on their products, VM would also fall foul of the Misrepresentation Act, 1967. This would also apply to those scenarios stated earlier, where there are unwritten / unknown threshold values defining Acceptable Use. By default, any such threshold value is a limit and the service cannot be called 'unlimited'.

All that guff earlier in this thread about 'try it in court, see how you get on' is just that, guff. The onus would be on VM to try to take action in court to enforce the contract that they perceive to be valid. The consumer just needs to give notice and cancel their Direct Debit.

Now, go on VM, if you are so confident of your T's & C's, take it to court and see how long it is before you are thrown out or hit with a nice counter-claim. :rolleyes:

Buy anyway - isn't this all somewhat hypothetical? I wasn't aware that there are any definite costs / plans for 100mb yet, let alone service changes to the 50mb product when the new top speed is released?? Has it even been confirmed that 50mb customers definitely won't be migrated to 100mb by default? (As has always been the case, all old tiers migrate in turn).

Where will you go? You have no other comparable options. Also I don't know how much per gig it costs virgin but out of that £700+ might not be that much money to virgin after they give you your own ubr lol

[Zapp79]

Everything to my door is VM apparatus, so whatever it costs them, it will be least it could be.

Besides, I don't use that much capacity at all, so my revenue per gb for VM would be rather high, I suspect.

TBH if VM or any other firm treated me badly I would look to leave out of principle. Why put up with poor service? You pay the bill = you are the boss.

There are plenty of options for me - what do you mean that there are 'no comparable options'?? VM ain't the only horse in town.

[pip08456]

Yeah right...

As I said in the thread about that the other day - the only possible use I'd have for BT Infinity is as a negotiating point if trying to squeeze something extra from VM.

)

I used that to get free install of 50Mb back in early this year!

[broadbandking]

I don't understand where people are saying VM have set limits, they don't they see just your usage pattern and see your effecting other customers and ask you move your downloading habits too off peak, that's all.

[pip08456]

I don't understand where people are saying VM have set limits, they don't they see just your usage pattern and see your effecting other customers and ask you move your downloading habits too off peak, that's all.

I can see where you are coming from but I blame all ISP's for the problem.

People now want "What they pay for"

For so long they have been sold "up to" and not getting it (not VM's fault) and it has brought with it a whole new mindset.

i.e.) I pay VM for 50Mb I wnat 50MB

I pay BT for 20Mb I want 20MB etc, etc.

IMHO the ISP's are to blame due to the marketing they were allowed to get away with with the "up to" rather than being totally honest with their customers.

The boot is now on the other foot and customers expect to get what is pushed at them.

"I pay for 50Mb, I want it! I pay for 20Mb "I want it"

You cannot blame the customer for being misled all these years. How ISP's are going to resolve this remains to be seen, but they have caused the problem in the first place.

[jb66]

Everything to my door is VM apparatus, so whatever it costs them, it will be least it could be.

Besides, I don't use that much capacity at all, so my revenue per gb for VM would be rather high, I suspect.

TBH if VM or any other firm treated me badly I would look to leave out of principle. Why put up with poor service? You pay the bill = you are the boss.

There are plenty of options for me - what do you mean that there are 'no comparable options'?? VM ain't the only horse in town.


Try and get 50meg somewhere else then lol

[PeteLockwood]

I can see where you are coming from but I blame all ISP's for the problem.

People now want "What they pay for"

For so long they have been sold "up to" and not getting it (not VM's fault) and it has brought with it a whole new mindset.

i.e.) I pay VM for 50Mb I wnat 50MB

I pay BT for 20Mb I want 20MB etc, etc.

IMHO the ISP's are to blame due to the marketing they were allowed to get away with with the "up to" rather than being totally honest with their customers.

The boot is now on the other foot and customers expect to get what is pushed at them.

"I pay for 50Mb, I want it! I pay for 20Mb "I want it"

You cannot blame the customer for being misled all these years. How ISP's are going to resolve this remains to be seen, but they have caused the problem in the first place.

i concur. good post

[Zapp79]

Try and get 50meg somewhere else then lol

Who said anything about 50mb being a necessity?

All I need is a stable, reasonably fast connection with a decent (unlimited) capacity allowance. I dare say that is all the majority of VM subscribers actually 'need'.

Sure, 50mb is nice to have though. :cool:

[jb66]

Who said anything about 50mb being a necessity?

All I need is a stable, reasonably fast connection with a decent (unlimited) capacity allowance. I dare say that is all the majority of VM subscribers actually 'need'.

Sure, 50mb is nice to have though. :cool:

You did

"There are plenty of options for me - what do you mean that there are 'no comparable options'?? VM ain't the only horse in town."

you cant compare 8mb ADSL with 50mb

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

and even if it did get traffic managed 25% of 50meg is still faster than ADSL

[Zapp79]

Despite it being pretty obvious what I meant, I will rephrase it - VM isn't the only horse (broadband provider) in town. Albeit, it is the only 50mb provider.

I didn't suggest I could get 50mb elsewhere and I didn't say that I must have 50mb broadband either, and you are welcome to read my post again earlier in the thread to confirm that.

And I am also not comparing 8mb ADSL with 50mb FTTC.

What does this have to do with potential traffic management on the 50mb service anyway?

[jb66]

Traffic managed = lowering of speed

My point is even if you did get traffic managed you'd still get a superior connection to adsl (the other horse in town)

[broadbandking]

Traffic management won't work on 50Mb as they have to traffic manage all the lower tier so if you even cut it by 75% that still 12.5Mb, and if VM have to stm 10Mb then it won't seem right, I can only hope if VM have to shape its appilication shaping as this fairer.

[Sirius]

Traffic managed = lowering of speed

My point is even if you did get traffic managed you'd still get a superior connection to adsl (the other horse in town)


I would not call adsl a horse, More a overweight 3 legged donkey :)

[Peter_]

I would not call adsl a horse, More a overweight 3 legged donkey :)
I could not resist.

Download Failed (1)

[pip08456]

i could not resist.

Download Failed (1)

nice :d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[broadbandking]

I could not resist.

http://www.strathcona.bc.ca/uploaded_images/donkey-776593.jpg

Poor donkey

[General Maximus]

I can only hope if VM have to shape its appilication shaping as this fairer.

So me downloading 50gb of games off Steam is going to help everyone out with the network traffic rather than me downloading 1gb on torrents or newsgroups?

[broadbandking]

But your only one person, the people who come home at 4 and fire up torrents and newsgroups and run them full whack are having a negative impact on the network, which leaves us gamers with less bandwidth for a decent game.

Plus I doubt many people sit there every single night downloading 50gb worth off games off steam.

[General Maximus]

I know, and I love fps gaming more than anyone else but the point I am making is that traffic shaping isnt going to help network performance at all because you are restrictiing a handful of applications/protocols and not stopping people from downloading anything else. If they are going to do anything I would to be stm'd then at least it is a restriction which is equally applied to everyone for total traffic volume regardless of what you download. They can't say it is bad for everyone to download 10gb of torrent in an evening but it is ok to download 10gb of stuff from elsewhere.

[TommyTomTom]

Try and get 50meg somewhere else then lol

What about these (http://www.fibreband.co.uk/broadband/) guys?

[ethan103]

That's nothing either. I did 850GB one month, and consistently did over 500GB for about 6 months on the trot. No letter. Go figure.


I'm on 50 Mb and i know i dont do more than 5 GB a month :P


I wouldnt know what to download :shocked:

---------- Post added at 15:31 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------

What about these (http://www.fibreband.co.uk/broadband/) guys?


I want it!!!

Bring it to Manchester!!!

[chamelion]

What about these (http://www.fibreband.co.uk/broadband/) guys?



quite limited availability... althouhg i'd sign up in a heartbeat here in london.

[Sirius]

What about these (http://www.fibreband.co.uk/broadband/) guys?

Problem with them is they have the smallest area of all the Isp at this moment in time.

I agree they are building but it is going to be a good few years before they finish the areas they have never mind move on to new ones.

[General Maximus]

i think this is great news, VM will have a decent rival and they will be forced to focus on quality of service in order to maintain their customer base rather than just spouting hype abut being the fastest BB provider in the UK

[jb66]

What about these (http://www.fibreband.co.uk/broadband/) guys?

Not in my area, also a bit pricey

[Peter_]

i think this is great news, VM will have a decent rival and they will be forced to focus on quality of service in order to maintain their customer base rather than just spouting hype abut being the fastest BB provider in the UK
You would have to move to enjoy that.;)

[AdamD]

£50 for 100mb down, 10mb up? I'd pay it.

[colin25]

Agreed. It is the upload that attracts me.

I know, they say size isn't everything. But strange that the woman who say that always have someone they are happy with (and that knowing smile). :)