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View Full Version : Cisco All in one modem/router in the pipeline for 100mb rollout ?


sniper007
10-07-2010, 23:07
Had an interesting chat to an engineer today. Nice bloke. He was saying that the rollout to 100mb should be starting (not sure if he meant my area) around October ish, and that Virgin want to try to do away with 10 and 20mb speeds. I think he meant it would basically be 50/100/200 but don't want to read into that wrongly.
Anyway....main thing I found interesting when I asked about the future of 100mb+ speeds requiring gigabit ethernet ports on the provided routers, was that he said they may be using Cisco all in one cable modems. i.e. Rather than a modem AND a router on the side, they would build it all in one housing/box finally and have giga wan and internal ports.
I have seen (briefly) some posts on the forum from what I gather may be staff members, that are hinting as to trialing this type of equipment right now. Anyone care to comment?

Cheers

jtaylor06
10-07-2010, 23:12
Makes more sense tbf rather than buying both :)

broadbandking
11-07-2010, 00:35
I remember someone saying its coming soon a all in one hub/router but I haven't heard anything as of yet, would be nice to just have one piece of kit instead of a modem and a router.

BenMcr
11-07-2010, 01:02
Had an interesting chat to an engineer today. Nice bloke. He was saying that the rollout to 100mb should be starting (not sure if he meant my area) around October ish, and that Virgin want to try to do away with 10 and 20mb speeds.

I think he meant it would basically be 50/100/200 but don't want to read into that wrongly
Virgin have already announced that 100Mbit will be coming before the end of the year

However I can guarantee that 10/20Mbit will be around for a while yet

Anyway....main thing I found interesting when I asked about the future of 100mb+ speeds requiring gigabit ethernet ports on the provided routers, was that he said they may be using Cisco all in one cable modems. i.e. Rather than a modem AND a router on the side, they would build it all in one housing/box finally and have giga wan and internal ports.As there are quite a few solutions available for cable gateways these days it would be silly if Virgin weren't looking at them.

slowcoach
11-07-2010, 02:23
I remember someone saying its coming soon a all in one hub/router but I haven't heard anything as of yet, would be nice to just have one piece of kit instead of a modem and a router.
So long as the inbuilt router is not the usual Virgin supplied POS. :erm:

kwikbreaks
11-07-2010, 09:48
So long as the inbuilt router is not the usual Virgin supplied POS. :erm:You could always treat it like a modem I suppose and feed a port into your own router. I don't have a gigaabit router (I just feed the router carrying the BB into a gigabit switch) so I'd need a gigabit router if I upgraded and the all-in-one would fit the bill.

General Maximus
11-07-2010, 09:51
sweeeeeeeeeeet, hopefully we'll all end up with Linksys modems/routers then, my favourite

sniper007
11-07-2010, 10:16
Yeah, it seems a bit silly in this day and age that some of us have to run a Modem, Wireless Router AND Gigabit switch to get a network how we want it, when we could have one box do all three properly using less heat, power and space.

jb66
11-07-2010, 11:24
I've got a netgear all in one router for 20meg. They 100% will not be moving all users to 50meg as that would mean a mass modem swap that would cost a fortune. There are plans for an all in one 50/100 meg router that will be released when 100meg comes out.

Halcyon
11-07-2010, 12:12
As long as it doesnt have wireless built in. I don't like wireless.

Graham M
11-07-2010, 12:19
As long as it doesnt have wireless built in. I don't like wireless.

... So turn it off?

jb66
11-07-2010, 12:25
As long as it doesnt have wireless built in. I don't like wireless.



Wouldn't be all in one then would it?

dave.m
12-07-2010, 17:35
The only Linksys(Cisco) routers to have Gigabit ports are the 320N and 610N.

Both are very nice routers to base a combined router/cable modem on.

* Any less than 4 ports and I'd have to use an external switch.

The big plus for me (and I mean big) would be the possibility to load custom firmware (Tomato or DD-WRT) if the Virgin router/modem uses the same cpu etc.

Dave

kwikbreaks
12-07-2010, 17:51
I seriously doubt that DD-WRT would be able to drive the inbuilt cable modem.

Sirius
12-07-2010, 17:54
How long will it be before we see the first


i will disconnect unless they give me one of these for free !!! posts :)

Ignitionnet
12-07-2010, 18:07
How long it will be before we see the first"i will disconnect unless they give me one of these for free !!!" posts

I'll reconnect if they give me one of these for free.

dave.m
12-07-2010, 18:10
I seriously doubt that DD-WRT would be able to drive the inbuilt cable modem.

Would it have to ? How do custom firmwares work with inbuilt adsl routers ?

Maybe it's just a pipedream :)

Dave

Ignitionnet
12-07-2010, 18:24
Would it have to ? How do custom firmwares work with inbuilt adsl routers ?

Maybe it's just a pipedream :)

Dave

The DD-WRT guys or whomever write code for the ADSL section of the router or use existing code supplied by vendors.

There is no such code, as far as I'm aware, for cable modem/routers.

More to the point Virgin wouldn't allow it and the device would necessarily be resistant to customers trying to upload firmware to them as this would be no different from modifying your existing cable modem - a big no-no.

Sorry guys, these boxes will likely only take firmware from the cable side. The only alternative is that they have two separate firmwares, one for cable and one for the router side and these are not linked. I can say with some confidence none of the combined units that are around at the moment behave like this.

Don't hold your breath is probably best.

RedDragon
12-07-2010, 18:34
The first cable modem/wireless routers are with trial customers now and should be released soon. To begin with they will be 20 meg only but with in built N wireless router.

weesteev
12-07-2010, 19:06
The combined modem/router is a Netgear VMDG280 custom combination gateway. Its a Docsis 2.0 modem and a Wireless N router in one with 4 10/100 Ethernet ports. It also has a power switch on the back! Here's a picture compared to the 50Mb modem...



I have been using it for about a week now, its very good! Easy to setup and configure, maybe not quite as powerful as the Dlink 655 but I dont think this model is aimed at the top end of the market. There will be a different model out for the 50Mb+ service later in the year and it looks pretty sweet!

Also, the firmware on the kit is a combined firmware for both modem and router, both devices can be accessed from the same admin panel, so no flashing!

whizzard
12-07-2010, 22:42
Using one of these myself, performance on throughput and wireless thus far seems about par with existing solutions officially supplied, but just "all in one" a la home hub, and obviously being VM comissioned its got custom firmware and they can control the flow of updates. Currently in internal trial and customer pilot at moment but i expect they will be to mass market by end of August/September time.

The combined modem/router is a Netgear VMDG280 custom combination gateway. Its a Docsis 2.0 modem and a Wireless N router in one with 4 10/100 Ethernet ports. It also has a power switch on the back! Here's a picture compared to the 50Mb modem...


I have been using it for about a week now, its very good! Easy to setup and configure, maybe not quite as powerful as the Dlink 655 but I dont think this model is aimed at the top end of the market. There will be a different model out for the 50Mb+ service later in the year and it looks pretty sweet!

Also, the firmware on the kit is a combined firmware for both modem and router, both devices can be accessed from the same admin panel, so no flashing!

RainmakerRaw
13-07-2010, 17:09
Personally I'm none too keen on this idea. At least with a separate modem you're free to have your own custom router. Having a VM controlled combined unit, with VM firmware, means you can't play round too much. Hopefully the option remains to have it act as a modem only, bridging itself on to a separate router.

A few quids worth of spare parts builds a hella powerful router and server, way better than anything you can buy in a shop. :D

BenMcr
13-07-2010, 22:30
Hopefully the option remains to have it act as a modem only, bridging itself on to a separate router. As far as I know, yup

KingDaveRa
13-07-2010, 22:41
Wonder if it runs IOS. That'd be nice. I somehow doubt it though.

RainmakerRaw
13-07-2010, 22:43
As far as I know, yup

Fingers crossed. :) I'd hate to make my brilliant little home made Linux DHCP NAT router/firewall/server redundant for a horrid little underpowered plastic box. :o:

Ignitionnet
14-07-2010, 12:08
Wonder if it runs IOS. That'd be nice. I somehow doubt it though.

No it doesn't and no it wouldn't, that would be hell letting people with no idea what they're doing loose on something running IOS. It's a plug and play home gateway, not a geek's plaything and will have a pretty GUI, perhaps a locked down CLI, that's about all :)

kwikbreaks
14-07-2010, 15:11
For most home users this is going to make a tidier setup but the 10/100 switch probably means that anybody with a halfway decent network is only going to us it to bridge the internet connection through to their current router or switch.
That's certainly the only use I could make of one and with a locked down simplistic firmware I'd likely keep my current router too so rather than save power it would probably cost me more.

BenMcr
14-07-2010, 15:40
For most home users this is going to make a tidier setup but the 10/100 switch probably means that anybody with a halfway decent network is only going to us it to bridge the internet connection through to their current router or switch.
That's certainly the only use I could make of one and with a locked down simplistic firmware I'd likely keep my current router too so rather than save power it would probably cost me more.
Remember the one in the picture is only for the lower tiers of service. There is going to be a seperate for the higher speed services and I'll bet that will be Gigabit ethernet - same as the current 50Mbit+ modem is

kwikbreaks
14-07-2010, 15:54
I'm on 20Mbps and I doubt they'll be dishing them out to existing customers anyway.

whizzard
14-07-2010, 16:16
Remember the one in the picture is only for the lower tiers of service. There is going to be a seperate for the higher speed services and I'll bet that will be Gigabit ethernet - same as the current 50Mbit+ modem is

Documentation for this 20mb one states it has Gigabit Lan ports.

Peter_
14-07-2010, 16:21
Documentation for this 20mb one states it has Gigabit Lan ports.
The are 2 lots of documentation and one states Gigabit ports and the other states 10/100 ports and as it is only rated for up to 20Mb I would go with the second set of numbers.;)

whizzard
14-07-2010, 16:25
The are 2 lots of documentation and one states Gigabit ports and the other states 10/100 ports and as it is only rated for up to 20Mb I would go with the second set of numbers.;)

My thoughts exactly. Overall thus far I have mixed impressions about it to be honest. Will be interesting to see what the feedback and responses are when it gets a full rollout.

BenMcr
14-07-2010, 21:04
Now confirmed as 10/100 on this one and Gigabit on the 50Mbit+ one ;)

weesteev
14-07-2010, 22:14
Confirmed as 10/100 by this user :) Gigabit would be pointless as its only going to offer speeds on the legacy Docsis platform.

The 50Mb combined modem/router looks VERY cool, cant wait to try it!

kwikbreaks
14-07-2010, 23:27
Confirmed as 10/100 by this user :) Gigabit would be pointless as its only going to offer speeds on the legacy Docsis platform.You obviously don't have a gigabit home network then. If you did the thing that would be pointless is the combined router/modem.

Doono
15-07-2010, 09:25
Anyone able to confirm you can use these as standalone modems? I personally am a little annoyed this is being shoved down our throats, especially since the previously supplied routers were all craptacular, I expect this to be no different.

TAZMANUK
15-07-2010, 11:28
how did you get onto trailing this device

Peter_
15-07-2010, 11:44
how did you get onto trailing this device
Already done and dusted, the is no way to get onto the trial as it is already running.

Ignitionnet
15-07-2010, 11:46
Ignoring how 'cool' it looks, etc, so long as it's stable, has decent wireless strength and isn't a pain to set up with those minor customisations like port forwarding it works for me.

For the curious the DOCSIS 3 home gateway for 50M services and up will, of course, have Gigabit Ethernet ports, would be rather pointless for 100M if it didn't :)

weesteev
15-07-2010, 12:34
Ignoring how 'cool' it looks, etc, so long as it's stable, has decent wireless strength and isn't a pain to set up with those minor customisations like port forwarding it works for me.

For the curious the DOCSIS 3 home gateway for 50M services and up will, of course, have Gigabit Ethernet ports, would be rather pointless for 100M if it didn't :)

Correct, the Docsis 3 gateway will have gigabit ethernet, this version by Netgear doesnt.

I have found that the wireless signal on this gateway is superior to both my dlink 655 running at full strength and also the Dlink 615 running DD WRT at a higher transmission rate. I get exactly 1 bar more strength in all locations in the home (where theres less than 5 bars). That was definately surprising.

:D

Anyone able to confirm you can use these as standalone modems? I personally am a little annoyed this is being shoved down our throats, especially since the previously supplied routers were all craptacular, I expect this to be no different.

As far as im aware your not forced to use this as its a chargeable extra. The standard standalone modem and router are the free optiosn but the combined device will carry a fee of some sort. Also, this router is quite decent considering its ISP supplied, currently connecting 12 devices to it and it seems to be holding up pretty well so far, even at peak times!

RyanB
15-07-2010, 13:16
Perhaps it might be way to junk all the clones off the network too... i am all for it... :)

BenMcr
15-07-2010, 16:38
As far as im aware your not forced to use this as its a chargeable extra. The standard standalone modem and router are the free optiosn but the combined device will carry a fee of some sort. Also, this router is quite decent considering its ISP supplied, currently connecting 12 devices to it and it seems to be holding up pretty well so far, even at peak times!Once it's launched the gateway will be the only device installed for customer with 20Mbit and below. Existing customers will have an option to either buy it or get it included if they upgrade to XL (further terms will apply). IF a fault develops with either sets of kit you will get a like for like swap.

Once the Docsis 3 gateway launches then that will also be the only kit installed for 50/100Mbit

weesteev
15-07-2010, 16:56
Once it's launched the gateway will be the only device installed for customer with 20Mbit and below. Existing customers will have an option to either buy it or get it included if they upgrade to XL (further terms will apply). IF a fault develops with either sets of kit you will get a like for like swap.

Once the Docsis 3 gateway launches then that will also be the only kit installed for 50/100Mbit

Good stuff Ben! Thats good to know.

BenMcr
15-07-2010, 17:46
Just to clarify when I said 'buy' earlier I meant 'pay a fee for it', as with everything else it will remain property of Virgin Media ;)

Horizon
15-07-2010, 17:52
Always like how these things have an "activation fee" which, just by pure coincidence, is the price of the equipment, yet the customer never owns it... But it is good news that finally there will be a combined modem/router available for cable. That'll be a couple of less wires to deal with.

I wonder how much the "activation fee" will be for tivo, £200-£300...

sniper007
15-07-2010, 21:02
Some good discussion in here. The pic someone said they posted above seems to have dissappeared though? How much do you guys think it will cost for someone on 50mb to "upgrade" to the newer style router. Surely if 50mb gets replaced with 100mb then they would send them out for free to customers on 50mb as it would be a requirment to get full 100mb speeds?

Peter_
15-07-2010, 21:06
Some good discussion in here. The pic someone said they posted above seems to have dissappeared though? How much do you guys think it will cost for someone on 50mb to "upgrade" to the newer style router. Surely if 50mb gets replaced with 100mb then they would send them out for free to customers on 50mb as it would be a requirment to get full 100mb speeds?
Why would they upgrade people for free when they can make money out of them instead by charging for the upgrade, if you want the upgrade you would without doubt be expected to pay for it.

sniper007
15-07-2010, 21:09
Sorry perhaps I did not make it very clear in my post. Let me explain. Say I am on 50mb, then they "upgrade" 50mb to 100mb aka they roll out 100mb and 50mb "becomes" 100mb. What if some people with 50mb kit (i.e. existing 50mb supplied routers such as the dlink and netgear variants) cannot achieve 100mb speeds. I mean are these routers capable of 100mb throughput. I know for a fact my linksys router at home is just abotu stretched to its max doing 50mb on the WAN port. Hope this makes sense.

Peter_
15-07-2010, 21:17
Sorry perhaps I did not make it very clear in my post. Let me explain. Say I am on 50mb, then they "upgrade" 50mb to 100mb aka they roll out 100mb and 50mb "becomes" 100mb. What if some people with 50mb kit (i.e. existing 50mb supplied routers such as the dlink and netgear variants) cannot achieve 100mb speeds. I mean are these routers capable of 100mb throughput. I know for a fact my linksys router at home is just abotu stretched to its max doing 50mb on the WAN port. Hope this makes sense.
It is unlikely as they know that upgrade would cost them to much money, remember that it is a business and they want to make a profit not give money away.

As 50Mb and 100Mb are both on the same tier it is more likely for 50Mb to stay as a standalone product which would mean that customers wanting to go onto the next tier would have to pay for the upgrade.

jtaylor06
15-07-2010, 21:35
Probably something like
50, 100*, 200*?

*Once released

Peter_
15-07-2010, 21:42
Probably something like
50, 100*, 200*?

*Once released
What is wrong with 10, 20, 50, 100 etc which would be similar to UPC (http://www.upc.nl/internet/) in Holland as this would suit many customers, plus upgrading all lower tiers to 50Mb would be unlikely again down to cost as everyone would need new kit.

broadbandking
15-07-2010, 22:47
The next free speed upgrade would be 10mb-20mb, as the higher tiers require a new modem, too much of a swap out program how many millions of modem would need posting.

Ignitionnet
15-07-2010, 22:54
What is wrong with 10, 20, 50, 100 etc which would be similar to UPC (http://www.upc.nl/internet/) in Holland as this would suit many customers, plus upgrading all lower tiers to 50Mb would be unlikely again down to cost as everyone would need new kit.

There won't be any upgrades beyond the upstream ratio uplift for a little while.

However do expect older equipment to be phased out as DOCSIS 3 kit drops in price.

broadbandking
16-07-2010, 08:18
Upgrades beyond 20mb is going to be a rather big project as all the speeds above 20mb will need a new modem.

sniper007
16-07-2010, 09:31
But if they upgrade 10mb to 20mb, then what happens to people on 20mb? Are you saying that people on 10mb and 20mb will just merge and the price will be made the same? Also, a lot of people have moved to 50mb on the basis that they expect to be treated as a top tier customer and will always be on the fastest speeds. Additionally people chose 50mb because the 20mb service is so poor at peak times and has big contention, not to mention the fact that 50mb has no throttling. If they introduced 100mb as a seperate tier to 50mb, would 50mb then be throttled? If they do that then I can see a lot of 50mb customers being upset.

Peter_
16-07-2010, 09:46
As in my post above I would expect 10Mb to stay as a base tier so do not expect an upgrade to 20Mb in the near future.

kwikbreaks
16-07-2010, 09:49
What is wrong with 10, 20, 50, 100 etc So are you expecting to see an XXXXL package sometime then? They'll run out of room for the Xs if we ever get to gigabit :)

sniper007
16-07-2010, 09:56
This is confusing. So say it does become 10, 20, 50, 100 I can't see how anyone would pay more to go from 50 to 100. What possible need is there when 50 is fast enough? The only reason to go 50 over 20 is due to lack of throttling and less contention. I can't see it being profitable for them at all.

Peter_
16-07-2010, 10:02
This is confusing. So say it does become 10, 20, 50, 100 I can't see how anyone would pay more to go from 50 to 100. What possible need is there when 50 is fast enough? The only reason to go 50 over 20 is due to lack of throttling and less contention. I can't see it being profitable for them at all.
People will always upgrade to a new faster tier as it is one upmanship and the company know this will happen.

As 100Mb requires new kit it will involve a fee to upgrade.

Ignitionnet
16-07-2010, 10:14
This is confusing. So say it does become 10, 20, 50, 100 I can't see how anyone would pay more to go from 50 to 100. What possible need is there when 50 is fast enough? The only reason to go 50 over 20 is due to lack of throttling and less contention. I can't see it being profitable for them at all.

Same reason as they started offering the 50. They need extra capacity to deal with increased customer demand for bandwidth (not so much peak bandwidth but many customers consistently using a couple of Mbit/s for reasonably long periods for streaming or whatever) so if deploying extra bandwidth why not win some headlines with the press by deploying a faster peak speed service as well?

BlueWave9780
16-07-2010, 16:00
People will always upgrade to a new faster tier as it is one upmanship and the company know this will happen.

As 100Mb requires new kit it will involve a fee to upgrade.

So I already pay nearly £30pm (not including having to have a VM phone line to get it at that price) for XXL Broadband, and when 100mbit comes out there will be a another more expensive tier introduced and a fee to upgrade on top of that?

Does that also mean XXXL or whatever crap they'll call it will become the only unthrottled package?


This is confusing. So say it does become 10, 20, 50, 100 I can't see how anyone would pay more to go from 50 to 100. What possible need is there when 50 is fast enough? The only reason to go 50 over 20 is due to lack of throttling and less contention. I can't see it being profitable for them at all.

I really don't understand that argument. The reason to get it is because it's faster. People want things faster. It's as simple as that.

broadbandking
16-07-2010, 16:58
Who said 50Mb would get throttled, with introduction of cview I can see shaping coming for all services.

RainmakerRaw
16-07-2010, 17:29
Who said 50Mb would get throttled, with introduction of cview I can see shaping coming for all services.

But with DOCSIS 3 is there really any need for it? That was half the sales pitch of the new network; no more congestion and issues with STM. If they do indeed introduce shaping I'll be back to ADSL2+/FTTC like a greased whippet. :td:

kwikbreaks
16-07-2010, 18:40
If they do indeed introduce shaping I'll be back to ADSL2+/FTTC like a greased whippet. :td:Do you honestly believe that would be better?

Peter_
16-07-2010, 18:53
If they do indeed introduce shaping I'll be back to ADSL2+/FTTC like a greased whippet. :td:
I rather doubt they would be able to ever offer 100Mb on any ADSL service.;)

RainmakerRaw
16-07-2010, 19:40
Do you honestly believe that would be better?

My BT line syncs at 22.5Mbps on ADSL2+ with UK Online or Be*. I used to download >1TB a month every month with no complaints. Compared to a crippled, shaped, STMd service with a high headline speed but no real use-ability? Yep, definitely I believe it'd be better.

I rather doubt they would be able to ever offer 100Mb on any ADSL service.;)

I'd rather have a truly unlimited 22 meg connection than a crippled 100 meg connection. I should add that I'm over the moon with my cable connection at the moment. I get 6.32MB/sec downstream and 200KB/sec upstream almost 24/7 (I get a hiccup at 5am for some reason, and upstream can be a little congested in the day time). I haven't anything to moan about, and am happy to pay more to keep it that way - my only point is that VM have a potentially decent thing on their hands here and I hope to hell they don't ruin it.

What's the point in pushing for ever faster headline speeds if you won't allow you customers to use it? The whole fanfare over DOCSIS 3 was that it wasn't subject to the usual congestion that can dog the lower tiers, yet now they're farming out AUP letters for simple bandwidth usage - and not very much of it judging by reports so far. Hopefully they'll remain sensible, in which case I'll be happy to pay for 100Mbps, 200Mbps and beyond. :)

Peter_
16-07-2010, 21:57
Compared to a crippled, shaped, STMd service with a high headline speed but no real use-ability? Y

What's the point in pushing for ever faster headline speeds if you won't allow you customers to use it? . :)
Who says that shaping is going to happen it is just supposition and remember the present traffic management policy has been in place since May 2009 and 50Mb therefore remains unshaped.

RainmakerRaw
16-07-2010, 22:58
Who says that shaping is going to happen it is just supposition and remember the present traffic management policy has been in place since May 2009 and 50Mb therefore remains unshaped.

I was responding to this post:

Who said 50Mb would get throttled, with introduction of cview I can see shaping coming for all services.

As you rightly point out the 50 meg is currently restriction free (unless you count the AUP letters for people downloading mediocre amounts in a month). I've no issues at present *touch wood :D*, I was simply saying I hope to heaven and back that VM leave well enough alone. I'd be delighted to upgrade to 100Mbps and beyond when the opportunity presents and would be a VM customer for life if they would simply continue to refrain from meddling where it's not necessitated. :)

Peter_
16-07-2010, 23:05
I was responding to this post:



As you rightly point out the 50 meg is currently restriction free (unless you count the AUP letters for people downloading mediocre amounts in a month). I've no issues at present *touch wood :D*, I was simply saying I hope to heaven and back that VM leave well enough alone. I'd be delighted to upgrade to 100Mbps and beyond when the opportunity presents and would be a VM customer for life if they would simply continue to refrain from meddling where it's not necessitated. :)
I have seen that post and feel that traffic shaping would be a wrong route to go down if you want customers to buy into the higher speeds, they will want this to be a money spinner and for that reason alone I rather doubt that the tiers above 20Mb will be shaped.

This is what I think personally by the way as they are in business to make money and to shape would potentially lose them a lot of revenue.

RainmakerRaw
16-07-2010, 23:14
Here's hoping. Sending letters to folks for using a measly (comparatively) 300GB in a month isn't going to make many customers dive into paid 100Mbps upgrades either, though. Didn't stop VM sending them out. :(

Peter_
16-07-2010, 23:16
Here's hoping. Sending letters to folks for using a measly (comparatively) 300GB in a month isn't going to make many customers dive into paid 100Mbps upgrades either, though. Didn't stop VM sending them out. :(
But that is not traffic shaping just a request to download outside of those hours.

RainmakerRaw
16-07-2010, 23:23
But that is not traffic shaping just a request to download outside of those hours.

Quite. But VM has to understand that shouting loudly on the sales pitch about their "fantastic truly unlimited fibre optic broadband network", before telling folks "psst... only if you use it when most people are asleep"... Well, it doesn't tend to make customers happy.

Given the low percentage of VM customers on the DOCSIS 3 platform, and it's "super brilliant" nature ;) I'm just confused as to how VM can moan when people actually do decide to use it. "Please pay ~£38 a month for the best broadband in the land. Only suitable for vampires and nighshift workers. Terms and conditions apply". :D

Please don't take me out of context. As I said I'm happy with my service (except my upstream seems to hit a brick wall at 90 KB/sec today after the modem firmware upgrade - new thread to follow), and I'm not being purposefully pedantic. I just hope the new products fulfil their true potential and are something I'd want to spend my money on. :)

Peter_
16-07-2010, 23:25
Please don't take me out of context. As I said I'm happy with my service (except my upstream seems to hit a brick wall at 90 KB/sec today after the modem firmware upgrade - new thread to follow), and I'm not being purposefully pedantic. I just hope the new products fulfil their true potential and are something I'd want to spend my money on. :)
We will find out when they roll out the new tier at the end of the year and probably well into next year.;)

broadbandking
17-07-2010, 00:39
Whilst shaping would **** some customers off, most won't know as certain applications would be given priority i.e streaming,gaming,VOIP and wouldn't affect most customer.

As for ADSL and BT Fibre, you are aware they send out letters too, plus BT use shaping on there fibre network.

RainmakerRaw
17-07-2010, 00:43
Sky and UK Online have a truly unlimited service; as I said I regularly pulled 500GB to 1TB a month without issue for over two years before I moved over to cable. Be never bothered about it either in the four months I was with them. :)

Hopefully this is all pie in the sky anyway, and VM continue to provide a great unshaped, STM free flagship product. I don't mind paying good money, provided the service is free of silly restrictions. I'm one of the (admittedly probably rare) people who'd happily pay £60 a month for a decent connection provided it was just that - decent.

Ignitionnet
17-07-2010, 11:01
Here's hoping. Sending letters to folks for using a measly (comparatively) 300GB in a month isn't going to make many customers dive into paid 100Mbps upgrades either, though. Didn't stop VM sending them out. :(

300GB isn't comparatively measly. It's well beyond the usage of virtually everyone who isn't running a business, helping themselves to other people's IP for free or has the population of a small hamlet running on one connection.

Would you perhaps be in favour of PAYG services, paying for inclusive usage then per GB afterwards, unshaped of course?

For comparison Comcast in the US both charge more than Virgin and have a 250GB FUP on their services after which time they may contact people over their usage.

dgcarter
17-07-2010, 19:41
I rather doubt they would be able to ever offer 100Mb on any ADSL service.;)

Not so long ago, BT were saying that 48k was the most anyone would ever be able to get out of copper.

Peter_
17-07-2010, 19:52
Not so long ago, BT were saying that 48k was the most anyone would ever be able to get out of copper.
If you think that over BT cables are capable of carrying 100Mb then that is worrying.:D

Ignitionnet
17-07-2010, 21:45
If you think that over BT cables are capable of carrying 100Mb then that is worrying.:D

Perfectly possible with 2 pair bonded VDSL 2 - most drop cables are 2 pairs so once cabinet has fibre it just needs configuration and appropriate CPE :)

Peter_
17-07-2010, 22:54
Perfectly possible with 2 pair bonded VDSL 2 - most drop cables are 2 pairs so once cabinet has fibre it just needs configuration and appropriate CPE :)
I rather doubt in practice that it would work as very likely the copper cables would be corroded to such an extent making it unworkable, and I rather doubt that BT could cover the cost of replacing all that cable.

As you know corroded copper cabling does not conduct signals very well, so as it may be possible in theory due to the existing cable network it would be very unlikely and would probably get nowhere near the advertised speed as per usual.

This system would also require 2 dedicated phone lines and as per usual over copper it is dependent on the distance from the exchange with regards to the actual speed, so if you also wanted a telephone line you would need 3 lines to the property.

So once again cable wins as the is still only the need for a single cable and the speed will not degrade over distance and would still be the cheaper option.

Ignitionnet
17-07-2010, 23:42
Actually it'll work just fine for many - needs fibre to the cabinet so distance from the exchange not an issue, effect of copper degredation minimal as the corrosion issues are largely a problem on cable joints, nearly all of which are eliminated by FTTC.

Wouldn't require two cables, as I mentioned most of the drop cables BT deliver to homes are two pair, so that single drop would be quite acceptable.

Cost wise you must know more than me about the plans for VM and BT, I just mentioned that it was possible no idea if it'll be a commercial product or the price premium BT would charge however it would be unlikely to be a full second line rental when it came to it, no need for one and the actual rental of the second line for FTTC isn't much, less than a fiver a month for the FTTC component.

VDSL 2 does not require a dedicated line, it co-exists just fine with telephony on the same copper pair, voice sits on a far lower frequency than the VDSL.

Cable wins for top speed yes, however a bonded VDSL solution wins on quality. At the distance I am from the cabinet my line could do 100Mbps or more downstream and 20Mbps+ upstream on one pair. If I were allowed that it would be an uncontended 100Mbps to the cabinet, which would then go on uncontended fibre to the exchange, where it would cross to the provider's network on an uncontended link, and then mix with traffic from other subscribers, contending for the first time, on a 10Gigabit Ethernet fibre link.

On cable I get a 100Mbps share of 200Mbps and would be immediately sharing this with perhaps 2 - 400 others before I've even gotten out of my neighbourhood. Congestion is far more likely on cable where you're contending from the second the data hits your modem than DSL where it is a dedicated link back to a fat pipe at the exchange, assuming you pick your provider appropriately.

BTW I never actually said that cable or VDSL won, I just said 100Mbps was quite possible ;)

Peter_
18-07-2010, 07:59
Actually it'll work just fine for many - needs fibre to the cabinet so distance from the exchange not an issue, effect of copper degredation minimal as the corrosion issues are largely a problem on cable joints, nearly all of which are eliminated by FTTC.

Wouldn't require two cables, as I mentioned most of the drop cables BT deliver to homes are two pair, so that single drop would be quite acceptable.

Cost wise you must know more than me about the plans for VM and BT, I just mentioned that it was possible no idea if it'll be a commercial product or the price premium BT would charge however it would be unlikely to be a full second line rental when it came to it, no need for one and the actual rental of the second line for FTTC isn't much, less than a fiver a month for the FTTC component.

VDSL 2 does not require a dedicated line, it co-exists just fine with telephony on the same copper pair, voice sits on a far lower frequency than the VDSL.

Cable wins for top speed yes, however a bonded VDSL solution wins on quality. At the distance I am from the cabinet my line could do 100Mbps or more downstream and 20Mbps+ upstream on one pair. If I were allowed that it would be an uncontended 100Mbps to the cabinet, which would then go on uncontended fibre to the exchange, where it would cross to the provider's network on an uncontended link, and then mix with traffic from other subscribers, contending for the first time, on a 10Gigabit Ethernet fibre link.

On cable I get a 100Mbps share of 200Mbps and would be immediately sharing this with perhaps 2 - 400 others before I've even gotten out of my neighbourhood. Congestion is far more likely on cable where you're contending from the second the data hits your modem than DSL where it is a dedicated link back to a fat pipe at the exchange, assuming you pick your provider appropriately.

BTW I never actually said that cable or VDSL won, I just said 100Mbps was quite possible ;)
I did look up and read the various article on this and found it interesting reading but all the articles said that you need two phone lines for it to work.

The winning was over a single connection fitted instead of 2 phone lines or more.

But as BT are looking at their own fibre network this is unlikely to see the light of day here.

Ignitionnet
18-07-2010, 09:38
I did look up and read the various article on this and found it interesting reading but all the articles said that you need two phone lines for it to work.

The winning was over a single connection fitted instead of 2 phone lines or more.

But as BT are looking at their own fibre network this is unlikely to see the light of day here.

The Fibre to the Cabinet network BT are deploying right now uses this technology, with the exception of the pair bonding which they haven't done yet. It's an option for the future however, as I mentioned, and is doable with configuration changes at cabinet and a new CPE.

I would be happy with an uncapped port though. Mmm 100 / 20 or more.

Anyway I win - BT's copper can, in some situations, do 100M. So there :p:

Peter_
18-07-2010, 10:00
Anyway I win - BT's copper can, in some situations, do 100M. So there :p:
I was on about the costs involved not speed, not that I really care as I have not had a BT line for 15/16 years and have intention of ever going back.

But back on track we are still waiting for a rollout date of the new combined kit for the non DOCSIS 3 platform.

Ignitionnet
18-07-2010, 10:30
I was on about the costs involved not speed, not that I really care as I have not had a BT line for 15/16 years and have intention of ever going back.

But back on track we are still waiting for a rollout date of the new combined kit for the non DOCSIS 3 platform.

Best say what you mean in that case ;)

If you think that over BT cables are capable of carrying 100Mb then that is worrying.:D

My DSL is more reliable than my cable ever was and the 4 DSL services from 3 different operators I've taken have been more stable than any of my 4 cable installs - YMMV of course :)

Peter_
18-07-2010, 15:10
My DSL is more reliable than my cable ever was and the 4 DSL services from 3 different operators I've taken have been more stable than any of my 4 cable installs - YMMV of course :)
Where I live the cable network is very stable and have only been affected by an outage once about 6 weeks ago in my whole time as a customer, so cannot complain.;)

broadbandking
19-07-2010, 12:11
My area's quite stable around 3 outages, only 1 that lasted 24hrs, rest anywhere between 2-5hrs, so not that bad at all.

andypandy2406
21-07-2010, 15:05
Just got my cable router yesterday, I am doing the pilot trial it is a NETGEAR VMDG280 unit with N class wifi and 4 wired outputs and one cable wire input, it has password and SSID on the side of it, was very easy to set up as it has the one click security button however you cant change the SSID or password as there is no litrature to say how to do this the usual 192.168.1.1 ect dont seem to work and there is nothing to give you a clue online helpwise, rang up and enquired and got a guy in india who never heard of the modem router combi so i gave up, anyone with the ip address to set it and change the routers SSID name and password to one i want.Also the router has very low WIFI output it hardly works upstairs where as the old belkin n worked well

BenMcr
21-07-2010, 15:53
Have you tried www.routerlogin.net which is usually the default page for Netgears. Admin details should also be on the side of the router.

Although the SSID and WPA should be unique to each router, so there is less of a need to immediately change it

whizzard
21-07-2010, 17:54
Just got my cable router yesterday, I am doing the pilot trial it is a NETGEAR VMDG280 unit with N class wifi and 4 wired outputs and one cable wire input, it has password and SSID on the side of it, was very easy to set up as it has the one click security button however you cant change the SSID or password as there is no litrature to say how to do this the usual 192.168.1.1 ect dont seem to work and there is nothing to give you a clue online helpwise, rang up and enquired and got a guy in india who never heard of the modem router combi so i gave up, anyone with the ip address to set it and change the routers SSID name and password to one i want.Also the router has very low WIFI output it hardly works upstairs where as the old belkin n worked well

Most Netgear routers have an ip of 192.168.0.1 or 192.168.1.1 with the username normally being admin the the password either being password or changeme by default. If you look on the labelling you should find all the info you need anyway.

jb66
21-07-2010, 22:06
192.168.100.1 worked for me

sniper007
22-07-2010, 13:38
Just got my cable router yesterday, I am doing the pilot trial it is a NETGEAR VMDG280 unit with N class wifi and 4 wired outputs and one cable wire input, it has password and SSID on the side of it, was very easy to set up as it has the one click security button however you cant change the SSID or password as there is no litrature to say how to do this the usual 192.168.1.1 ect dont seem to work and there is nothing to give you a clue online helpwise, rang up and enquired and got a guy in india who never heard of the modem router combi so i gave up, anyone with the ip address to set it and change the routers SSID name and password to one i want.Also the router has very low WIFI output it hardly works upstairs where as the old belkin n worked well


Can you post some screenshots of the firmware and what options there are in there?

Peter_
22-07-2010, 13:46
Can you post some screenshots of the firmware and what options there are in there?
The firmware will be locked down in the new gateway.

BenMcr
22-07-2010, 14:00
The firmware will be locked down in the new gateway.It still allows you to change the SSID and WPA key

Peter_
22-07-2010, 14:01
It still allows you to change the SSID and WPA key
That is different to the firmware.

Phil7C
08-08-2010, 20:53
I got the VMDG280 when I signed-up to Virgin a fortnight ago but wasn't told that it was a trial so I take it they're sending them out as standard now.

Anyone else find the wifi performance shockingly bad? I'm 12 yards away (pretty direct line of sight) and I struggle with a low signal. If anyone stands near the router then the signal nearly dies completely.

Have I got a dodgy sample or am I not alone. FYI, I've an old ADSL router (Belkin, also type-N) which is absolutely fine...

jb66
08-08-2010, 21:09
I changed to channel 11 and it improved but not as good as d link

Veco
11-08-2010, 10:42
i went round to self install my friends 10Meg service yesterday, she got given the VMDG280. Nothing was mentioned about a trial. they also threw in the DIR-615 which seemed a little pointless to me, but oh well, i have a spare router to hack about with now.

BenMcr
11-08-2010, 11:50
The Hubs are standard kit for all new broadband installs for 10/20Mbit

chienmort
13-08-2010, 18:48
Just oout of interest, what is the contention ratio for 20mB and does it vary by region?

|Kippa|
14-08-2010, 14:38
I got the new cable modem with the 50mbit connection. When I upgrade to 100mbit will I have to get this new modem router all in one installed. Personally I'd rather just stick with the current cable modem and be upgraded remotely without the need for technician to visit if possible.

BenMcr
14-08-2010, 16:54
At this stage there haven't been any details released as to what kit will be needed for 100Mbit

The modem is capable of doing 100Mbit though

smcaul
28-08-2010, 20:09
I have to say that if I had to give up the modem to change from 50 to 100 then I would stay put - I am happy to have my modem and then a Draytek Vigor which has far more settings for my home network then any of the cheap consumer junk that will be supplied!!!

General Maximus
28-08-2010, 20:13
i agree dude, I have no probs getting a new modem but i want to be able to choose my own router. I don't want to be forced to use some cheap combo crap. Tbh, considering 100mbit is going to be a connection for the elite they should give the pc enthusiasts the choice. It isnt as if they need to provide some simple plug n play usb stuff for noobs on the bottom tier.

Peter_
28-08-2010, 20:39
i agree dude, I have no probs getting a new modem but i want to be able to choose my own router. I don't want to be forced to use some cheap combo crap. Tbh, considering 100mbit is going to be a connection for the elite they should give the pc enthusiasts the choice. It isnt as if they need to provide some simple plug n play usb stuff for noobs on the bottom tier.
You can disable the wireless radio on the lower tier hub and the 100Mb hub will have a similar option so you can continue to use your own routers without any issue, the only real difference being is that you can connect 3 extra devices to the hub unlike any of the present modems.

I think that you are under a misconception with regards people who sign up for 50Mb, as not everyone is a computer expert or get 50Mb because they can download to their hearts content, some just get it because they can and it is faster than their friends .;)

smcaul
28-08-2010, 21:05
yeah, but can you turn of the NAT on them? can you turn off all the junk that they have them? how much of a problem will they cause for a proper router such as the Draytek? I have quite a few rules and port forwards set up, and a standard router would not have anywhere near the capabilities of the higher end models!!!

BenMcr
28-08-2010, 21:09
You can't turn the full router off as far as I'm aware, however you can connect your own router to it, assign it a static IP and put it into the DMZ. Should achieve basically the same thing

General Maximus
28-08-2010, 22:04
edit: was feeling better until I read Ben's post :(

BenMcr
28-08-2010, 23:48
Well that's the situation with the D2 Hub. Still awating final technical details for the D3 one

General Maximus
28-08-2010, 23:52
use your divine powers dude and get it sorted for us

Peter_
29-08-2010, 09:45
use your divine powers dude and get it sorted for us
The will be no details listed until prior to the very first part of the 100Mb rollout.;)

whizzard
30-08-2010, 16:08
The will be no details listed until prior to the very first part of the 100Mb rollout.;)

Probably not even then - end of the day the current AMBIT 50mb modem is capable enough for the 100mb testing. What's the point of referring to CPE by their internal names anyway?

virginruinedntl
30-08-2010, 18:03
Is there any updated ETA for the faster upload speeds for the XL broadband as i believe its supposed to come in Q3 which is over in 1 month to the day?

Peter_
30-08-2010, 18:13
Probably not even then - end of the day the current AMBIT 50mb modem is capable enough for the 100mb testing. What's the point of referring to CPE by their internal names anyway?
Not quite sure what you mean.

BenMcr
30-08-2010, 18:23
Not quite sure what you mean.
I think he means me saying 'D2/D3'

I of course meant 'Hub' and 'SuperHub' ;)

Peter_
30-08-2010, 18:25
I think he means me saying 'D2/D3'

I of course meant 'Hub' and 'SuperHub' ;)
I just know the standard hub as VMD280.:D

whizzard
30-08-2010, 18:40
Is there any updated ETA for the faster upload speeds for the XL broadband as i believe its supposed to come in Q3 which is over in 1 month to the day?

Like most VM network changes, this will be done gradually, dont believe there is any rollout planned until the end of the year now, with full cross network coverage being achieved until early in 2011.

And yes ben and Masque, I meant the D references. Means nothing to anyone other than that those "in the know", most people will just call it the VM Hub, here's hoping they change the upcoming one's name as "Super" just reminds of the early 90s and every Nintendo game having Super affixed to it.. lol

pip08456
30-08-2010, 18:49
Is there any updated ETA for the faster upload speeds for the XL broadband as i believe its supposed to come in Q3 which is over in 1 month to the day?

Unless of course one is referring to the financial year in which case Q3 will begin in one month.