I'm on XL [20mb] & getting 2mb UP?

[zag]

What's going on? Getting 2mb up atm....?
Not complaining ;)
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/01/17.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[Ignitionnet]

Yes - they are trialling 20/2 and 10/1 in addition to 50/5 and 50/10.

The upgrades are, 100%, going to be for everyone when they happen.

Enjoy!

[Peter_]

I love the way they forget to tell the staff about these trials and you have to read about them on a forum.:p::p::p:

[bopdude]

I love the way they forget to tell the staff about these trials and you have to read about them on a forum.:p::p::p:

It's great, ain't it ;)

=/ goes to do a speedtest :D

[Ignitionnet]

I love the way they forget to tell the staff about these trials and you have to read about them on a forum.:p::p::p:

These trials aren't really relevant to 1st / 2nd line technical support so no need to mention it to you guys really. Trials team will be monitoring the modems on the trials and will back the changes out if there are problems :)

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 ----------

It's great, ain't it ;)

=/ goes to do a speedtest :D

Dream on I'm afraid, still a very narrow scope to the trials at present, Huddersfield and Coventry.

[Peter_]

These trials aren't really relevant to 1st / 2nd line technical support so no need to mention it to you guys really. Trials team will be monitoring the modems on the trials and will back the changes out if there are problems :)

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 ----------



Dream on I'm afraid, still a very narrow scope to the trials at present, Huddersfield and Coventry.
It just looks odd when a customer rings in and no one has any idea what they are on about.:D

[Ignitionnet]

It just looks odd when a customer rings in and no one has any idea what they are on about.:D

On the other hand it's not really anything to do with supporting the customer bar a fault which trials should pick up on from their own monitoring..

If they are calling in because their service is faster than usual they probably need to consider finding a hobby or better yet a pet as they obviously struggle to find company with their own species :)

[Sephiroth]

On the other hand it's not really anything to do with supporting the customer bar a fault which trials should pick up on from their own monitoring..

If they are calling in because their service is faster than usual they probably need to consider finding a hobby or better yet a pet as they obviously struggle to find company with their own species :)
For once, I think you're wrong.

First and second line support should be given service bulletins to advise where trials are happening, the scope of those trials and any notes associated with servicing support questions. That's plain old good practice which would be byond VM and it's renowned quality director who publicly said a year ago that VM's "fundamentally broken" processes would be fixed by the whiz-bank Six-Sigma quality system!

[Ignitionnet]

The scope of current and upcoming trials is company confidential and technical support most certainly cannot be trusted to keep this to themselves, it'd be on The Register before the end of the day. They are necessarily told what they need to be told to perform their job and no more.

It's also none of the customers' business if trials are running unless they've agreed to sign NDAs for the same confidentiality reasons.

If a customer is part of a trial they are flagged as such and their issues can be directed to the trial team. As I also said the trial team monitor their triallists and will roll back loss of service.

Being totally open with staff about upcoming events may work in a small company or even a larger one where everyone is of a certain grade but for somewhere like Virgin which will have a number of employees who couldn't care less about keeping information to themselves it's not feasible.

You may think I'm wrong all you want ;) but regrettably that is how mass market ISPs have to roll. Tell technical support and you know beyond any shadow of a doubt you just told the whole world what you're up to.

Good practise is fine though it's not such good practise when you're giving the competition an open door into what your plans are for the next several months so that they can pre-empt you. What you suggest is an ideal but not even close to realistic.

[Sephiroth]

The scope of current and upcoming trials is company confidential and technical support most certainly cannot be trusted to keep this to themselves, it'd be on The Register before the end of the day. They are necessarily told what they need to be told to perform their job and no more.

It's also none of the customers' business if trials are running unless they've agreed to sign NDAs for the same confidentiality reasons.

If a customer is part of a trial they are flagged as such and their issues can be directed to the trial team. As I also said the trial team monitor their triallists and will roll back loss of service.

Being totally open with staff about upcoming events may work in a small company or even a larger one where everyone is of a certain grade but for somewhere like Virgin which will have a number of employees who couldn't care less about keeping information to themselves it's not feasible.

You may think I'm wrong all you want ;) but regrettably that is how mass market ISPs have to roll. Tell technical support and you know beyond any shadow of a doubt you just told the whole world what you're up to.

Good practise is fine though it's not such good practise when you're giving the competition an open door into what your plans are for the next several months so that they can pre-empt you. What you suggest is an ideal but not even close to realistic.

Utter tripe! Good practice is necessary. It's nonsense to go on about confidentiality because the forums tell all the stories anyway.

[Ignitionnet]

Utter tripe! Good practice is necessary. It's nonsense to go on about confidentiality because the forums tell all the stories anyway.

Whatever Seph. Try working for a large ISP and you may get some grasp of this issue. Forums tell a story of what is being done at the moment, 'good practise' as you want it would give away what is being done months in advance, how, where and why.

Please get through your head this is a large consumer ISP not some small enterprise grade business where one can control everything and have a high degree of confidence in the ability to keep things confidential. Even my own employer does not announce that much to its' staff too far in advance, that's why we have a trials team, to look after trials. I am not officially privvy to what they do because it's none of my business. If a customer contacts us with an issue on a trial I pass it to the trials team.

Sorry to bring the real world into pontification over 'process'. Commercially confidential upcoming products and trials are need to know, and 1st line tech support doesn't, simples.

[Kymmy]

Do I have to start banging heads together???

My own opinion is that if there is any chance that a customer on 20/2 or 10/1 will be ringing cs or ts then they should be informed, if not then the customer should be informed of the trial and given a specific support number..

[Ignitionnet]

Do I have to start banging heads together???

My own opinion is that if there is any chance that a customer on 20/2 or 10/1 will be ringing cs or ts then they should be informed, if not then the customer should be informed of the trial and given a specific support number..

There have never been complaints in the past on this issue, I am not sure why it would suddenly kick off now.

Customers who have been migrated to DOCSIS 2 upstreams will be having their nodes especially monitored by the trials teams, and will likely also be on ASM / Advanced Spectrum Management ensuring that they drop to DOCSIS 1 profiles to avoid problems in case of issues with the nodes.

Customers were not informed and tech support were not informed when nodes were migrated to 256QAM, tech support were not informed when downstream uplifts were trialled using these 256QAM nodes, tech support were not informed when 16QAM upstream reconfiguration happened so I am unsure of the value in confusing tech support, as you just know they'll start looking for issues that aren't there, and confusing customers even ignoring the confidentiality issues.

The trial is on such a small area there's really no point. When it starts going live tech support will be told.

In every industry trials are rarely communicated fully through the operational infrastructure unless that infrastructure is very small. Until trials become a larger market it's unnecessary and can cause far more issues with the 99.5% who aren't on the trial than it might resolve with the 0.5% who are.

[Kymmy]

Nobody is complaining, I'm certainly not, but how can VM expect to perform a trial without getting proper feedback, as I said at very least I would have expected the trialists to have been informed and given a point of contact ;)

[Ignitionnet]

Nobody is complaining, I'm certainly not, but how can VM expect to perform a trial without getting proper feedback, as I said at very least I would have expected the trialists to have been informed and given a point of contact ;)

The trial isn't there for customer feedback, it's there to get feedback on network performance 'in the field' along with how it copes with the extra load from uplifting the customers. Customer feedback is derived from closed trials where customers have agreed an NDA such as the ongoing trials in and around Ashford.

You'll note that a fair few triallists were on the Samknows performance trial so feedback would have been obtained from there on those guys.

The 'nobody is complaining' bit referred to that, as far as we're aware, there was no mass of calls into tech support from people complaining that their services had speeded up on trials or that they were having major issues after being upgraded on a trial.

[Kymmy]

Yeah but surely network performance is relevant all the way to the user ;)

Now what I need to know is am I as a business customer likely to be left behind again by a jump in residential services?? :(

[Ignitionnet]

Yeah but surely network performance is relevant all the way to the user ;)

Now what I need to know is am I as a business customer likely to be left behind again by a jump in residential services?? :(

Not really, it's to establish network load, and network performance is monitored in the case of the upstream uplifts by the various stats that can be derived from the cable modem itself and the Virgin equipment it connects to. Things like SNRs, burst error rates, transmission power, etc, etc can all be polled at the modem and router. Relying on reports from the customer brings their equipment into the equation along with a reliance on their observations rather than facts and can muddy the waters somewhat.

No idea re: business customers.

[Sephiroth]

Not really, it's to establish network load, and network performance is monitored in the case of the upstream uplifts by the various stats that can be derived from the cable modem itself and the Virgin equipment it connects to. Things like SNRs, burst error rates, transmission power, etc, etc can all be polled at the modem and router. Relying on reports from the customer brings their equipment into the equation along with a reliance on their observations rather than facts and can muddy the waters somewhat.

....

There you have it. Sod the customer's perception and long live non-transparency.

You're from the support side, I'm from the customer side (in this case).

[pip08456]

There you have it. Sod the customer's perception and long live non-transparency.

You're from the support side, I'm from the customer side (in this case).

And never the twain shall meet!

[Ignitionnet]

There you have it. Sod the customer's perception and long live non-transparency.

You're from the support side, I'm from the customer side (in this case).

I'm from the 'been there, done that' side. Ever dealt with things like this or indeed worked for a large consumer ISP in operations or development? This is not an enterprise environment where each customer is paying huge amounts of money and demands individual attention.

Engaging every customer brings little value but involves a lot of extra time. This is a network trial, not a customer trial, it just requires the involvement of customers to work properly.

And again, apart from the tiny % of customers who are nerds, customers simply don't care. They just go 'Ooooh shiny' and carry on using their connections to up/download their porn, send and receive their email and browse their web pages.

Virgin Media is a high volume, mass market, low attention service. If customers want more attention and information than they might get from Virgin Media, Talk Talk, BT, Sky, etc, they have other options. It should of course be noted that these other options tend to be considerably more expensive.

Customer perception is not a part of these trials. Where it is required customers have the Samknows kit or have been directly engaged. It's purely about the networks.

[broadbandking]

So tell me as VM skipped DOCSIS 2.0, have the areas of the trials been upgrade so this is possible, as I understood it, VM was going to wait for DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding on the upstreams to upgrade the upload speeds.

[roughbeast]

The scope of current and upcoming trials is company confidential and technical support most certainly cannot be trusted to keep this to themselves, .......

If a customer is part of a trial they are flagged as such and their issues can be directed to the trial team.

I can't be trusted to keep my mouth shut either. So what happens to confidentiality now? Perhaps nobody checks in here, or any other forum, sussing out the opposition.

Also I haven't been flagged that I am on a trial, yet here I am on 5Mb upload.

http://www.mybroadbandspeed.co.uk/results/12780501.png (http://www.mybroadbandspeed.co.uk)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/01/16.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

Sorry to keep on posting speed test results, but I feel so superior.pimp:

[Ignitionnet]

I can't be trusted to keep my mouth shut either. So what happens to confidentiality now? Perhaps nobody checks in here, or any other forum, sussing out the opposition.

Also I haven't been flagged that I am on a trial, yet here I am on 5Mb upload.

As I said the interesting bit isn't what has happened, but when things will. To ensure 'total transparency' technical support need to be aware of stuff before it happens.

I would imagine it will be very clear you are on a trial, you have a Samknows bit of kit getting 'perception' information, and you are on a non-standard tier. With the exception perhaps of the outsourced centre that probably struggle with logging into their thin clients in the morning it's very obvious you're on a trial :)

---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 13:28 ----------

So tell me as VM skipped DOCSIS 2.0, have the areas of the trials been upgrade so this is possible, as I understood it, VM was going to wait for DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding on the upstreams to upgrade the upload speeds.

No.

Some areas will run the DOCSIS 2 channels ok, some will need a little work, some will need a lot.

Even bonding VM will still need to upgrade some areas to make enough space and add enough laser capacity to cope with the channels - they will be bonding DOCSIS 2 channels.

Note that there's only a single upstream channel on the overlay network per area right now, not a lot to bond. In a lot of Ex-Telewest areas with their comprehensive network upgrade programmes that space for that single upstream channel had to be taken from the old network...

[Sephiroth]

....
Note that there's only a single upstream channel on the overlay network per area right now, not a lot to bond. In a lot of Ex-Telewest areas with their comprehensive network upgrade programmes that space for that single upstream channel had to be taken from the old network...
What do you define as an area in this case?

[Ignitionnet]

What do you define as an area in this case?

Fibre optic nodal area.

My own is old school Telewest and has the following upstreams:

18.8MHz - DOCSIS 1 - QPSK / 3.2MHz
22.0MHz - DOCSIS 1 - QPSK - 3.2MHz
25.8MHz - DOCSIS 1 - QPSK - 3.2MHz
28.8MHz - DOCSIS 1.1 - 16QAM - 3.2MHz

The 28.8 used to belong to the DOCSIS 1 network.

[roughbeast]

As I said the interesting bit isn't what has happened, but when things will. To ensure 'total transparency' technical support need to be aware of stuff before it happens.

I would imagine it will be very clear you are on a trial, you have a Samknows bit of kit getting 'perception' information, and you are on a non-standard tier. With the exception perhaps of the outsourced centre that probably struggle with logging into their thin clients in the morning it's very obvious you're on a trial :)

Interesting. At no point has anyone official said that I am on a 5mb trial linked to SamKnows

[Ignitionnet]

You aren't, you just happened to be in an upstream trial area and on the Samknows performance trial at the same time.

Samknows kit is collecting 'customer perception' while the 5Mbit trial is collecting network data.

It will be noted you're on the performance monitoring trial.

[broadbandking]

Its a seperate trial but they might have linked the trials together.

[roughbeast]

It will be noted you're on the performance monitoring trial.

.............but why wasn't I told? A non-nerdy user may not have noticed. Not that I care. Except, of course, when they withdraw me from the speed trial without notice!

I mustn't be so cynical or pessimistic. I could be on 10Mb before I know it.

[Ignitionnet]

.............but why wasn't I told? A non-nerdy user may not have noticed. Not that I care. Except, of course, when they withdraw me from the speed trial without notice!

I mustn't be so cynical or pessimistic. I could be on 10Mb before I know it.

Did you not receive a Samknows box, or do I have you confused with someone else? I remember you posting about being selected for the Samknows trial I'm sure.

You weren't told because they want to see how the network performs with normal usage and how it copes with things. They did not want to start having people thinking that the trial is a service upgrade and complaining when they don't get their max trial speed or when it is withdrawn.

The other issue is that some people may avail themselves of the upgrade news by caning their upload 24x7 - not really a realistic representation of normal usage which is what they are interested in mostly.

If your modem copes ok, which it evidently does, and the network copes ok, which it also evidently does, mission accomplished. Now they just keep an eye on how capacity requirements are. They'll have some data on this from smaller trials but need more 'en masse' info.

[roughbeast]

Did you not receive a Samknows box, or do I have you confused with someone else? I remember you posting about being selected for the Samknows trial I'm sure.

You weren't told because they want to see how the network performs with normal usage and how it copes with things. They did not want to start having people thinking that the trial is a service upgrade and complaining when they don't get their max trial speed or when it is withdrawn.

The other issue is that some people may avail themselves of the upgrade news by caning their upload 24x7 - not really a realistic representation of normal usage which is what they are interested in mostly.

If your modem copes ok, which it evidently does, and the network copes ok, which it also evidently does, mission accomplished. Now they just keep an eye on how capacity requirements are. They'll have some data on this from smaller trials but need more 'en masse' info.

Trying not to confuse the trials which you are saying are unconnected.

I know about SamKnows because I have the kit. Crappy as it is, only 1 port in and 2 out and only 100Mbs.

I didn't know about the 5Mb trial I was on. You are saying that is deliberate so I wouldn't cane my equipment? That's a laugh I've been downloading sh..loads of torrents just so I can gawp at it all zoom up again.

[Ignitionnet]

Trying not to confuse the trials which you are saying are unconnected.

I know about SamKnows because I have the kit. Crappy as it is, only 1 port in and 2 out and only 100Mbs.

I didn't know about the 5Mb trial I was on. You are saying that is deliberate so I wouldn't cane my equipment? That's a laugh I've been downloading sh..loads of torrents just so I can gawp at it all zoom up again.

Isn't much of a trial of how it would work in operation capacity wise if people change their usage patterns because of it is all :)

Nothing wrong with doing just that though, I probably would as well to be honest ;)

Anyway that's about all I have to say and I hope it makes sense, even if people disagree.

[pip08456]

Isn't much of a trial of how it would work in operation capacity wise if people change their usage patterns because of it is all :)

.

Now you've lost me. Surely in operation capacity wise ppl will use the extra U/L capacity otherwise what's the point in having it?

[Sephiroth]

Now you've lost me. Surely in operation capacity wise ppl will use the extra U/L capacity otherwise what's the point in having it?

Methinks the guru is viewing this through a different set of lenses from most of the rest of us. From his perspective he's right. And this is one of the big clashes between VM and the customer. At certain touch points it's "sod the customer". And this is one of them apparently.

[Ignitionnet]

Now you've lost me. Surely in operation capacity wise ppl will use the extra U/L capacity otherwise what's the point in having it?

Using it as per normal and going 'Wow upload upgrade must download a load of torrents so I can watch them seed' are two very different things. Planning capacity to those criteria mean once (if in the case of beast ;)) the novelty fades there's a load of unused and expensive capacity there doing nothing.

Remember, in an ideal world VM would throw capacity enough for all of us to cane our connections at once onto the network, sadly they'd go bankrupt fairly rapidly if they did so have to balance that pretty minimal amount we pay each month against our capacity requirements.

As an aside to this you'll note some areas haven't received capacity upgrades, in some areas there simply isn't ever enough capacity for them, as soon as it's provisioned it gets used, so they draw a line in the sand and let it stay congested.

This isn't a Virgin specific thing, it applies to cable companies throughout the world.

[pip08456]

Using it as per normal and going 'Wow upload upgrade must download a load of torrents so I can watch them seed' are two very different things.



My download habits would not change as my D/L speed will still be the same but my upload would. That is just natural so I cannot agree with you here.

[Sephiroth]

....

Remember, in an ideal world VM would throw capacity enough for all of us to cane our connections at once onto the network, sadly they'd go bankrupt fairly rapidly if they did so have to balance that pretty minimal amount we pay each month against our capacity requirements.

As an aside to this you'll note some areas haven't received capacity upgrades, in some areas there simply isn't ever enough capacity for them, as soon as it's provisioned it gets used, so they draw a line in the sand and let it stay congested.

This isn't a Virgin specific thing, it applies to cable companies throughout the world.

Again, there's the problem. Never mind the rest of the world (with potentially different consumer laws), what VM mustn't do is to take extra business in an area that is allowed to stay congested (except on the parts that are not congested).

That's almost the nub of this thread when you get down to it.

[Ignitionnet]

My download habits would not change as my D/L speed will still be the same but my upload would. That is just natural so I cannot agree with you here.

It's not 'natural' it's just how you use your service. Others will download more as their download speed increases as they have no interest in uploading or do anything that uses it. To each their own.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------

Again, there's the problem. Never mind the rest of the world (with potentially different consumer laws), what VM mustn't do is to take extra business in an area that is allowed to stay congested (except on the parts that are not congested).

That's almost the nub of this thread when you get down to it.

Well the nub of the thread was 20Mbps and 2Mbps upstream trials but it soon diversified regrettably into an excuse to have a moan at VM about something that has quite simply never been an issue previously.

FYI - All previous tier uplifts on Telewest, yes right since their deployment of 1Mbps services 7 years ago, and Virgin Media since merger were trialled in this manner and Moldova's comment was a light hearted and quite wistful one, he's well used to this and he knows that it really isn't a major problem to the business or its' customers, with the exception of yourself who appears to look for any excuse to comment on:

plain old good practice which would be byond VM and it's renowned quality director

Oddly no-one seemed fussed by the 5Mbps upstream trial roughbeast found himself on or the Hudderfield 5 and 10Mbps rollouts, only this trial and some bandwagon jumping that kicked off the whine-line :shrug:

[broadbandking]

:clap:

[roughbeast]

Oddly no-one seemed fussed by the 5Mbps upstream trial roughbeast found himself on or the Hudderfield 5 and 10Mbps rollouts, only this trial and some bandwagon jumping that kicked off the whine-line :shrug:

There isn't much else to say on this thread now, in its original or high jacked guise, so let's move on.

Let's face it we all like to stick our oar in or have a bit of combative banter. Isn't that one of the reasons we post here?

[Ignitionnet]

There isn't much else to say on this thread now, in its original or high jacked guise, so let's move on.

Let's face it we all like to stick our oar in or have a bit of combative banter. Isn't that one of the reasons we post here?

Shush, and stop messing up the trials with your usage!! :p:

Thanks for proving my point though, most people wouldn't have realised they were upgraded, you did and changed your usage patterns which makes the load testing unrealistic.

Won't matter in the grand scheme, of course, but if it were repeated in all trials it would make a bit of a mess of things.

[gobbledigook]

any ideas which areas are having the trials? will all customers in that area be upgraded? and is it worth me rebooting my router to get a new conf ?

I would love some more upstream! 2meg would be perfect, then i would be able to stream my video collection from outside my lan :D

[Ignitionnet]

any ideas which areas are having the trials? will all customers in that area be upgraded? and is it worth me rebooting my router to get a new conf ?

Huddersfield and Coventry so far. No they aren't. No it isn't it'd be automatic if it happened :)

[roughbeast]

Shush, and stop messing up the trials with your usage!! :p:

Thanks for proving my point though, most people wouldn't have realised they were upgraded, you did and changed your usage patterns which makes the load testing unrealistic.

Won't matter in the grand scheme, of course, but if it were repeated in all trials it would make a bit of a mess of things.

Actually I'm already getting over it. Novelty has worn off. Nevertheless being on 5Mb and 10Mb upload is the torrent addicts dream. Let's face it, what else, apart from gaming, are folk going to use that sort of upload for unless they are in business? Illegal file sharing becomes less hazardous. Quickly download and quickly upload to the minimum 1.1 share ratio. Less chance of detection.

I just know you are going to tell me I'm wrong. :bump:


Gaming with 5Mb up is a blast. I play Wolfenstien Enemy Territory. My ping is lower than anybody else's. Lag is a thing of the past and action is so smooth.

[Ignitionnet]

Nah you've got it pretty much spot on apart from that the 5Mbit is nothing to do with your ping being lower, would be the same at 5Mbit or 500kbit ;)

Don't forget people working from home and doing video conferencing as a demand driver for higher upstreams though, would make my working from home days more productive.

[ileikcaek]

It's good news they are trialling faster uploads but still 2Mb upload on a 20Mb connection is poor in world standards. I've seen packages in other countries on the lines of 15/5. or 25/25 or 50/20.

I feel 20Mb should at least have 10Mb upload, but that's my opinion.

[broadbandking]

It's good news they are trialling faster uploads but still 2Mb upload on a 20Mb connection is poor in world standards. I've seen packages in other countries on the lines of 15/5. or 25/25 or 50/20.

I feel 20Mb should at least have 10Mb upload, but that's my opinion.

Really? Why should VM give you a 10Mb upload on 20Mb when they charge you peanuts for it?

[Ignitionnet]

It's good news they are trialling faster uploads but still 2Mb upload on a 20Mb connection is poor in world standards. I've seen packages in other countries on the lines of 15/5. or 25/25 or 50/20.

I feel 20Mb should at least have 10Mb upload, but that's my opinion.

Those are on networks that are fibre all the way. The 10/1, 20/2, 50/5 are pretty comparable to other operators on cable networks.

I pushed for a 10:1 ratio. Anything better is a bonus.

[pabscars]

Those are on networks that are fibre all the way. The 10/1, 20/2, 50/5 are pretty comparable to other operators on cable networks.

I pushed for a 10:1 ratio. Anything better is a bonus.

Why is the ratio important, sorry if this is stupid question but I dont understand why we cant have 1:1 ratio's

[Ignitionnet]

Why is the ratio important, sorry if this is stupid question but I dont understand why we cant have 1:1 ratio's

Simple explanation cable isn't built symmetrically, was originally made for cable TV with the upstream as an 'afterthought'.

Have a read of this (http://onewayinternet.blogspot.com/2008/09/this-is-technical-science-bit.html).

Even shiny new networks only offer at best 20:3 unless you're psycho Japanese guys who are spending loads of money and rebuilding everything. Full symmetry is feasible eventually, but not right now and no point in holding back progress.

[pabscars]

Thanks for the link, it takes a bit of digesting but I read it all :)

However what I meant to ask was from a stability/reliability point of view, if you have a low upload compared to download speed, does this effect download performance as well, if so at what point (ratio wise) does it become a problem.

Once the upload upgrade is rolled out, what is the likelihood of upload saturation causing issues.

[Blackened]

@ Broadbandings - thanks for the info. Interesting read. :tu:

Aside from torrents/file uploads and gaming, are there any other advantages of this upload speed increase for the general user? Quicker handshakes etc?
Or is it kind of given it's generally as quick as it could be?
I once read browsing speed (in terms of pulling down data) can't get *much* quicker with a faster connection as the servers can only reply so fast, but would a faster up speed initiate a *much* quicker handshake, say?
I say this from a VM user who has serious problems on occasion with connecting to (only) certain sites.
Probably way off, but curious anyway. :)

[Ignitionnet]

However what I meant to ask was from a stability/reliability point of view, if you have a low upload compared to download speed, does this effect download performance as well, if so at what point (ratio wise) does it become a problem.

It depends at what point it becomes an issue. Depends on what you are using to download, the settings on each side, if a few things in cable networks that reduce need to acknowledge packets are on, etc.

Once the upload upgrade is rolled out, what is the likelihood of upload saturation causing issues.

Given it's causing issues now without the upgrades how long is a piece of string?

Depending on how it's implemented it can certainly increase likelihood of issues, if they do it properly it'll remedy many of the existing issues.

[zag]

Wow just checked back after the initial post.... what a read :-) ta guys.....
Still liking my 20/2 & will be gutted if it goes.......

[janipewter]

Anyone have any idea on the rollout schedule for this upgrade? Will it be this year? I'd be happy to have 20/2 instead of paying £50 to upgrade to 50meg...20Mbit down is fine for me I just wanted the faster upload.

[Ignitionnet]

Absolutely no idea at all Jani, as mentioned previously VM are showing a seriously lack of enthusiasm about this project and while stuff might be happening behind the scenes a whole lot of nothing is happening visibly.

A serious dose of JFDI is needed really.

[janipewter]

Sigh. I take it they'll have some ridiculous traffic management on the upload too once it gets upgraded. This is a **** take.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/02/49.png

[zag]

WTF - thought I'd try again to see if I was still getting it & I'm getting 4Mb/s up now :-)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/02/28.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:30 ----------

had to confirm that was not a speedtest FU so i uploaded 20mb to my ftp server:
Command: STOR Ulead VideoStudio9 Full_Patch1_5in1.exe
Response: 150 Accepted data connection
Response: 226-File successfully transferred
Response: 226 40.951 seconds (measured here), 474.67 Kbytes per second
Status: File transfer successful


---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:33 ----------

:-)

[janipewter]

I hate my life

[broadbandking]

Fair play not bad at all Zag, can you post your modem config so we can see the config file value please.

[zag]

No probs mate.....

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/02/25.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/02/26.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

Network Access : AllowedMaximum Downstream Data Rate : 20480000Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 4096000Maximum Upstream Channel Burst : 8160Maximum Number of CPEs : 1Modem Capability : Concatenation Enabled, Fragametation Enabled, PHS Enabled
Cable Modem : Euro-DOCSIS 1.0/1.1/2.0 CompliantMAC Address : 00:14:a4:****Serial Number : 0014A4C3****Boot Code Version : 3.1.6dSoftware Version : 2.94.1015Hardware Version : 1.19
Downstream Lock : LockedDownstream Channel Id : 61Downstream Frequency : 307000000 HzDownstream Modulation : QAM256Downstream Symbol Rate : 6952 Ksym/secDownstream Interleave Depth : taps12Increment17Downstream Receive Power Level : -7.9 dBmVDownstream SNR : 42.5 dB
Upstream Lock : LockedUpstream Channel ID : 1Upstream Frequency : 45800000 HzUpstream Modulation : QPSKUpstream Symbol Rate : 5120 Ksym/secUpstream transmit Power Level : 50.7 dBmVUpstream Mini-Slot Size : 4
Req
Init Maint
Per Maint
Adv Short
Adv Long
Adv UGS
(1)
(3)
(4)
(9)
(10)
(11)


Modulation TypeQPSK QPSK QPSK 16QAM 16QAM 16QAM Differential EncodingOff Off Off Off Off Off Preamble Length36384384646464Preamble Value Offset39666396396396FEC Error Correction (T)055499FEC Codeword Information Bytes (k)16343476232232Scrambler Seed338338338338338338Maximum Burst Size0007027Guard Time Size224848222222Last Codeword LengthFixed Fixed Fixed Short Short Short Scrambler on/offOn On On On On On


Couple more speed tests too i like.... :-)

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

pmsl - was formatted nice before posting :dunce:
You can read all the info anyway.....

Whats next - 6mb ????? lol :D

[pip08456]

Wrong page Zag
This is the one wanted.

Cable Modem Operation Configuration
Network Access : Allowed
Maximum Downstream Data Rate : 20480000
Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 768000
Maximum Upstream Channel Burst : 3044
Maximum Number of CPEs : 1
Modem Capability : Concatenation Enabled, Fragametation Enabled, PHS Enabled

[zag]

its there - at the top.....

---------- Post added at 23:03 ---------- Previous post was at 23:03 ----------

just under the speed test pics:
Network Access : AllowedMaximum Downstream Data Rate : 20480000Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 4096000Maximum Upstream Channel Burst : 8160Maximum Number of CPEs : 1Modem Capability : Concatenation Enabled, Fragametation Enabled, PHS Enabled

[broadbandking]

its there - at the top.....

---------- Post added at 23:03 ---------- Previous post was at 23:03 ----------

just under the speed test pics:
Network Access : AllowedMaximum Downstream Data Rate : 20480000Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 4096000Maximum Upstream Channel Burst : 8160Maximum Number of CPEs : 1Modem Capability : Concatenation Enabled, Fragametation Enabled, PHS Enabled

Wow a 4Mb upload not bad at all

[pip08456]

its there - at the top.....

---------- Post added at 23:03 ---------- Previous post was at 23:03 ----------

just under the speed test pics:
Network Access : AllowedMaximum Downstream Data Rate : 20480000Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 4096000Maximum Upstream Channel Burst : 8160Maximum Number of CPEs : 1Modem Capability : Concatenation Enabled, Fragametation Enabled, PHS Enabled

Sorry Zag, missed it due to the format.

All I can say is You lucky ********:D

[Ignitionnet]

Wow a 4Mb upload not bad at all

I'll start showing interest when they start rolling it out rather than just pushing random numbers at modems in trial areas. They've trialled far higher than this ;)

[broadbandking]

I'll start showing interest when they start rolling it out rather than just pushing random numbers at modems in trial areas. They've trialled far higher than this ;)

I know that but on a 20Mb connection 4Mb upload is nice, better than 1Mb which I heard was the actual upgraded speed once rolled out.

[The PIT]

I love the way they forget to tell the staff about these trials and you have to read about them on a forum.:p::p::p:

Nothing like being a mushroom kept in the dark and fed on !"£$

[Ignitionnet]

I know that but on a 20Mb connection 4Mb upload is nice, better than 1Mb which I heard was the actual upgraded speed once rolled out.

Just urinating in the wind for test purposes. With the current stuff they are trialling there's no way on God's Green Earth they would even dream of trying to upgrade 20M to 4M up.

[calmpitbull]

I can totally understand why this was kept secret. That way the situation can be monitored under normal usage conditions. Nobody is going to call tech support saying there internet connection is too fast.

[broadbandking]

I can totally understand why this was kept secret. That way the situation can be monitored under normal usage conditions. Nobody is going to call tech support saying there internet connection is too fast.

You would be suprised mate.

[Impz2002]

i would imagine the percentage of normal users who actual know or understand the speed of their upstream connection is so minute that these trials will go un-noticed by most everyday customers. You have to look very far into the small print to even see the upstream values to the different tiers in the product descriptions. Telling people they were part of an "upstream uplift trial" would confuse most people.

Bring on the upstream increases though, i sure as hell could use it !

Impz

[zag]

Doesnt that slightly defeat the point though? I mean I uh hurm... torrent a little but based my upload on what I "thought" it was.... Now I know I have more up potential I have changed things.... Point is that the VM of normal users will not use more up speed so having it there has made no difference. Other than backend tests I can't really see what this has given VM as there will have been little if no increase in upstream data at all - so what was the point????

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

I was agreeing with you Impz.... on 2nd read that wasn't really apparent... appologies lol
:-)

[ileikcaek]

Just urinating in the wind for test purposes. With the current stuff they are trialling there's no way on God's Green Earth they would even dream of trying to upgrade 20M to 4M up.

What makes you say that? 20 down 4 up seems pretty fair for the price paid. ;)

[Ignitionnet]

What makes you say that? 20 down 4 up seems pretty fair for the price paid. ;)

The channels they are trialling this stuff on can only manage about 18Mbit, and about 13Mbit before they start showing jitter. Not going to get many 10Mbps up 50Mbps customers and 4Mbps up 20Mbps customers out of each one of those without some quite hardcore protocol shaping or other limiting. :)

Purely my opinion the prices we pay are bugger all btw, similar tiers in the USA, with similar upload speeds to those mentioned above, are double the cost or more.

20/4 is fine so long as they charge a reasonable increment on top of the standard price. Perhaps raising 20M to 20/2 with 20/4 as an extra cost option would be good.

In any event I doubt it'll happen, they are just I think trying different ratios out - they tried 10:1 and now 5:1.

[ileikcaek]

The channels they are trialling this stuff on can only manage about 18Mbit, and about 13Mbit before they start showing jitter. Not going to get many 10Mbps up 50Mbps customers and 4Mbps up 20Mbps customers out of each one of those without some quite hardcore protocol shaping or other limiting. :)

Purely my opinion the prices we pay are bugger all btw, similar tiers in the USA, with similar upload speeds to those mentioned above, are double the cost or more.

20/4 is fine so long as they charge a reasonable increment on top of the standard price. Perhaps raising 20M to 20/2 with 20/4 as an extra cost option would be good.

In any event I doubt it'll happen, they are just I think trying different ratios out - they tried 10:1 and now 5:1.

That seems fair enough! :)

[pip08456]

That seems fair enough! :)

Not really. They are doing limited trials, not informing the users and only the very small percentage savvy enough to realise use the extra which is no help at all if they roll it out.

Then again perhaps you are commenting on the 20/2 or 20/4 at extra cost which would be fair enough provided they could supply it constantly.

[jb66]

I wish I had 2mb upload :(

[|Kippa|]

When are the upgrades likely to start? Soon? Middle of the year, or later near the end of the year?

[pip08456]

When are the upgrades likely to start? Soon? Middle of the year, or later near the end of the year?

Nobody says they are. Virgin have never given any weight to upload speeds.

[zag]

Do they make the changes by writing the config to the cable modem? or is it set further back on the network?

If option a, then can I block the modem from being updated again ;)

I work in IT so I'm pretty sure this is not possible and the speed / ratio is set elsewhere and the modem just reports it - more just wishful thinking :td:

worth an ask tho........ :D

[pip08456]

If I am correct. The modem receives a config file which tells it the speed it is to connect at. No you can't block it.

[Peter_]

Do they make the changes by writing the config to the cable modem? or is it set further back on the network?

If option a, then can I block the modem from being updated again ;)

I work in IT so I'm pretty sure this is not possible and the speed / ratio is set elsewhere and the modem just reports it - more just wishful thinking :td:

worth an ask tho........ :D
You cannot block it as you get the config as part of the start up process upon reboot and even if you decided not to reboot the modem we can force reboot the modem remotely at any time.:)

If you did try to access the modem software you would be in breach of the Terms and Conditions.:erm:

[Ignitionnet]

Do they make the changes by writing the config to the cable modem? or is it set further back on the network?

If option a, then can I block the modem from being updated again ;)

I work in IT so I'm pretty sure this is not possible and the speed / ratio is set elsewhere and the modem just reports it - more just wishful thinking :td:

Bits of both depending what equipment you connect to. On the newer equipment, which you are connected to right now, speed is policed at the equipment you connect to and displayed on the modem which receives a configuration file and commands to add a service flow. The configuration file's bandwidth settings are not essential it could be totally policed by the VM kit.

On the older equipment downstream is policed by the equipment, upstream by the modem but the parameters for both can come from the config file - IE without the appropriate security it was possible to ram a config file into a modem and the network would allow the modem to operate at that speed. This is largely gone now.

You are on the newer kit so I'm sorry to say when you get a speed change there is nothing you can do to avoid it :)

[zag]

:mad: Back to .768 :td::td::td:

Oh well was good whilst it lasted ;)

[|Kippa|]

A few have now mentioned that the trials have finished for them. Maybe they might be ready to start rolling out nationally soon if the trials have finished in general.

[Ignitionnet]

A few have now mentioned that the trials have finished for them. Maybe they might be ready to start rolling out nationally soon if the trials have finished in general.

No idea but it won't be a national roll out at once either way. They may have done these trials and roll it at the same time as the 100M, starting near the end of the year. Depends on how the trials went and how much work they need to do to make it happen I guess.

Most likely course of events according to the rumour mill was (subject to change)

10M/1M
20M/2M
50M/5M
100M/10M

Rumours though of upstream upgrades being chargeable options or their being a combination of an upgrade with more available as an extra.

Only a few people know how this is panning out for sure and sadly I don't know any of them :)

[ileikcaek]

Charging for it as an upgrade would be immoral to say the least.

[|Kippa|]

If they wanted more money for 5mbit on a 50mbit I would be rather miffed. Personally I would want 5mbit as a free upgrade for 50bmit. But saying that, I wouldn't mind paying slightly more 10mbit upload rate on 50mbit but not too much extra.

[Ignitionnet]

Charging for it as an upgrade would be immoral to say the least.

Wouldn't be a compulsory extra charge would be an option.

---------- Post added at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

If they wanted more money for 5mbit on a 50mbit I would be rather miffed. Personally I would want 5mbit as a free upgrade for 50bmit. But saying that, I wouldn't mind paying slightly more 10mbit upload rate on 50mbit but not too much extra.

So you want more bandwidth but don't want to pay for it and expect it to be free?

We weren't promised any kind of free upgrade at any point, it being chargeable wouldn't be in any way misleading.

[|Kippa|]

If it were chargeable and if were quite a bit more I'd at least expect 10mbit if the cost was significantly higher. I don't mind paying a reasonable extra ammount for a faster upload rate, so long as it is reasonable.

[Ignitionnet]

If it were chargeable and if were quite a bit more I'd at least expect 10mbit if the cost was significantly higher. I don't mind paying a reasonable extra ammount for a faster upload rate, so long as it is reasonable.

A tripling in speed isn't reasonable?

We're probably talking around a fiver a month for upgrade from 1.75 - 5Mbit. Given the low point it's starting from it's not too bad and worth it if it stops P2P kiddies smashing the network up seeding themselves stupid and Virgin throttling people to try and stop it.

[|Kippa|]

I would say that £5 a month extra for 5mbit is reasonable. One thing that would bother me though is if they put heavy restrictions on it. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that I would hammer the 5mbit 24/7, I would just like to upload to my website server at 5mbit then suddenly get shaped down to 0.5mbit or something like that.

I don't mind some form of restrictions if they do bring out 5mbit I just hope they are not too draconian.

[Ignitionnet]

I would say that £5 a month extra for 5mbit is reasonable. One thing that would bother me though is if they put heavy restrictions on it. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that I would hammer the 5mbit 24/7, I would just like to upload to my website server at 5mbit then suddenly get shaped down to 0.5mbit or something like that.

I don't mind some form of restrictions if they do bring out 5mbit I just hope they are not too draconian.

Charging extra for it would hopefully reduce the likelihood of restrictions and would deter some people :)

[kendo1]

ooo sometime in this last week my 20mb upload has gone up to about 2mb. In Coventry BTW. Thinking about upgrading to 50mb, not sure now though

[jrhnewark]

I'm all for them charging extra for better upstream. 90% of customers wouldn't show much interest as they're probably not aware that connections are asymetrical, but that leaves quite a large proportion who like to chuck bits of data upstream and realise how slow that can be.

I'd be very happy if they'd let me have 10Mbps down with 1Mbps up and then an extra, say, fiver for 2Mbps.

(I should also add that I'm not a P2P monkey any more - used to be, but I haven't got time any more! What I do have is a web and mail server at home and it'd be nice to grab files from home a little more speedily, and also have a fair broadband speed for surfing while connected to my VPN.)