wirless setup on 50mb router, slows down, unreliable

[jason4656]

I have just got my 50mb service, and ive done about 10 tests on different places on the hard wired connection, its solid between 48-50 all the time.

On wireless its crap, even the engineer couldnt help, he said we dont do wireless just install the line and the 50mb is fine, even his own laptop wasnt good.

Ive done a bit of research and i have an imac, and vaio both running 802.11n he tried different channels, turning off the tv, he even insisted the washing machine and plasma must be interfering...

anyone have some optimal settings I could try? or suggestions to get it faster on the wireless?

thanks

[Sephiroth]

....

anyone have some optimal settings I could try? or suggestions to get it faster on the wireless?

thanks
A dual channel 'n' router and using it on 5 MHz rather than 2.4 MHz. The VM supplied modem is bottom of the range.

[jason4656]

the only thing i can find relevant to that is the 20/40mhz(Auto) setting in the advanced router setup?

I presume as the router is hard wired to my pc downstairs, its doing its job carrying from the modem? so it would be the routers capability to transmit the wireless thats a problem?

would it be best to get an all in one? router modem? ? or is there something I Can change to help?

[roughbeast]

A dual channel 'n' router and using it on 5 MHz rather than 2.4 MHz. The VM supplied modem is bottom of the range.

Try this one, Netgear WNDR3700. Amazon do it for £120. Bit early for used ones to be up anywhere.

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=7564

I use one. It as GigE tech all round, 1000Mbs ether, 600Mhz processor, Dual band wireless inc. 5 Mhz, USB for external HDD and a media server. Way better than VM's bottom of the market stuff. Even the Fonera2n (http://www.fon.com/en/) with its open source upload download software isn't this good.


http://www.mybroadbandspeed.co.uk/results/12613841.png (http://www.mybroadbandspeed.co.uk)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/01/22.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[jason4656]

thanks guys i will check it out, is there anything i can do in the meantime to improve my current setup? or is it just bound to be unreliable and slow over wireless?

[roughbeast]

thanks guys i will check it out, is there anything i can do in the meantime to improve my current setup? or is it just bound to be unreliable and slow over wireless?

If you run XP try using TCPOptimiser (http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php) if you haven't already.

Oh yeah. Consider where your receiving computer is in relation to the wireless router. Try it close up and compare your speeds with where it normally is. Also if the computer is slow then everything will seem slow even with a 300Mbs wireless connection.

[jason4656]

they are both fast pcs, my mac which is upstairs runs alot faster than my windows 7 which is a new vaio, whether or not they are right next to the router or upstairs, it doesnt change, thats why I was asking about the settings

thanks

[Sephiroth]

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33650965-50mbit-wired-vs-wireless-netgear-vs.html

Have a read of this thread. It'll tell you that the subject is as broad as it is long as it is deep. All the gotchas are weedled out in that thread.

HTH

[roughbeast]

they are both fast pcs, my mac which is upstairs runs alot faster than my windows 7 which is a new vaio, whether or not they are right next to the router or upstairs, it doesnt change, thats why I was asking about the settings

thanks

I don't know Macs but Windows 7 doesn't need TCP optimisation. It does that automatically, so it aint that.

I can only think that maybe your router isn't set up right in wireless config. Is it definitely broadcasting at 300Mbs?

By the way, what download speed do you get on your wireless connection? Anything over 35Mb is good. 25Mb is typical. 10Mb would be poor.

[jason4656]

when i do a speedtest on the vaio, i get 3mb!! lol on the mac i get about 20mb but I havent tried downloading from any usenet or anything.

i tried downloading on my hard wired connection and it only managed a max of 25mb and that connection shows 50mb on speedtest

when you refer to speed its broadcasting at, do you mean the 802.11 protocol being n? its set to mixed but both the connections to it are running n

thanks

[Sephiroth]

when i do a speedtest on the vaio, i get 3mb!! lol on the mac i get about 20mb but I havent tried downloading from any usenet or anything.

i tried downloading on my hard wired connection and it only managed a max of 25mb and that connection shows 50mb on speedtest

when you refer to speed its broadcasting at, do you mean the 802.11 protocol being n? its set to mixed but both the connections to it are running n
thanks

Ah - then it could be picking up G from contending neighbours - even if you've changed your channels because their frequencies overlap. If you're gonna run N only, then it might be best to set the router and PCs to N only.

[jason4656]

ok will try that now thanks

[Sephiroth]

ok will try that now thanks

... and read the thread I posted if you can be bothered!

[jason4656]

dont know if its the time of night and I am only using speedtest so it could be unreliable now can manage 44mb on the mac and 31mb on the win 7pc all set to be on N, there are quite a few options for N though on the laptop hardware setup, mac just does it automatically

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:07 ----------

... and read the thread I posted if you can be bothered!

lol keep your wig on! ive been reading it as im talking and trying other things!

[roughbeast]

when i do a speedtest on the vaio, i get 3mb!! lol on the mac i get about 20mb but I havent tried downloading from any usenet or anything.

i tried downloading on my hard wired connection and it only managed a max of 25mb and that connection shows 50mb on speedtest

when you refer to speed its broadcasting at, do you mean the 802.11 protocol being n? its set to mixed but both the connections to it are running n

thanks

Speedtests are one thing. The rate at which files download is another. It's so dependent on the server and the route.

With wireless setting I was referring to setting options you may have. I have a WNDR3700. On the 2.4Mhz and 5Mhz channels I can opt for a wide range of security options, auto channel or a specific one and for 54Mb, 130Mb and 300Mb connection speed. I have gone for auto and 300Mbs. My n adaptor connects at 300Mbs, but I have only ever maxed on 40Mb download on a speed test. Usually it is nearer 30Mb.

My security I have set to WPA-PSK [TKIP] + WPA2-PSK [AES] - Allow clients using either WPA-PSK [TKIP] or WPA2-PSK [AES]
"To reach maximum wireless performance, the 11N clients must connect to this router using WPA2-PSK(with AES) . For clients connecting in WPA-PSK( with TKIP), the maximum wireless speed will be at 802.11g"

As you see there are a lot of options. You go for whatever your client mix requires.

[jason4656]

all the pcs are set to aes, but the router is set to be auto which is tkip/aes it says, transmission rest is set to best(auto)

[roughbeast]

all the pcs are set to aes, but the router is set to be auto which is tkip/aes it says, transmission rest is set to best(auto)


Sounds fine to me. Does it give you wireless speed options? If so set to max. eg. 300Mbs.


After this I run out of ideas.

If you do go for dual band with 5Mhz you will need an adaptor to accept it. You can get these same place as dual router.

---------- Post added at 01:40 ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 ----------

dont know if its the time of night and I am only using speedtest so it could be unreliable now can manage 44mb on the mac and 31mb on the win 7pc all set to be on N, there are quite a few options for N though on the laptop hardware setup, mac just does it automatically

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:07 ----------



lol keep your wig on! ive been reading it as im talking and trying other things!

lol@keep wig on :Peaceman: I would be happy with those stats. You may not find the expense of a dual wireless router worth the difference. I mostly have mine to serve my gigabyte set up. ie HD video streaming across the whole house + games and stuff.


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Good night and good luck

[Sephiroth]

dont know if its the time of night and I am only using speedtest so it could be unreliable now can manage 44mb on the mac and 31mb on the win 7pc all set to be on N, there are quite a few options for N though on the laptop hardware setup, mac just does it automatically
......

Then, of course, you are contending in your own house for wireless channel space! I'm not adequately au fait with the wireless buffering in the router to know whether contention occurs there. My maths / queing system "sense" tells me you'll have less contention if you set the N speed lower. I believe the benefit comes from being on the "rarer" 5 MHz bandwidth.

I don't think what I've said is utter bollox - but I'm not totally certain of myself here. It's just what I'd be trying (and no doubt will have to one day).

EDIT: http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~cclljj/teaching/09F-Data_Communication/IEEE802_11.ppt might be an interesting read on the topic. It's pre-802.11n but the issues are identical.

One of my lines of thought is that downloading is constrained to 50 mbps from all sources; this can be punted into the router (depending on model) at up to 1 Gbps. You've got your wireless N set to 300 Mbps - so there's potential for buffering at 1 Gbps input. Then the router punts that out at 300 Mbps (instantaneous). In the meantime, the other download is contending for the router's resurces and buffers and ultimately the wireless channel space. Something like that.
HTH.

[jason4656]

its all good info guys thank you, things I would probably end up trying myself, I certainly didnt think of the other router though, I would like to have faster wireless for file transfer accross my home network for streaming stuff also if possible.

[roughbeast]

its all good info guys thank you, things I would probably end up trying myself, I certainly didnt think of the other router though, I would like to have faster wireless for file transfer accross my home network for streaming stuff also if possible.

To enhance my HD streaming I spent £50 on running cat 5.0e ethernet to my network HDD and to my main mediaplayer TV. With the 1000Mbs link to my network HDD all my wireless machines receive really smooth HD vid from the router.

[Ignitionnet]

Data will never go from the cable modem to the router at 1Gbps. This would require the modem to buffer the 53Mbps stream for 19 seconds out of every 20 so that it can then throw it at the router at 1Gbps for 1 second which of course doesn't happen. It passes it to the router in a stream as it receives and demodulates it, which in the case of VM is no faster than 53Mbps. Network devices don't hold onto traffic so that they can burst transmit at far higher rates 20 seconds down the line.

If the wireless link is incapable of keeping up with the 53Mbps coming from WAN to LAN TCP congestion control will ensure that the flow never gets to 53Mbps or will alternately reduce to a manageable level as required if wireless conditions change - this can be observed by watching a TCP flow slow starting and watching it go to a zero length window if wireless conditions cause a stall in receipt to try ensure that the receive window doesn't overload or stay overloaded for too long and too many packets drop.

If using a protocol which has no congestion control of its' own you're SooL as the router will have no concept of this it'll have a small buffer in it and if that fills it just starts dropping traffic until the buffer is under control.

I have no idea why dropping the 802.11N bandwidth down would lower the contention, it would just give less bandwidth to be shared between the devices it wouldn't lower their contending for the bandwidth it would just mean less is usable and reduce WAN and LAN throughput accordingly though this is a non-issue as these devices are all 'visible' and would be scheduled accordingly.

The issues relating to contention on wireless networks relate to contention between different wireless networks at the RF level, not devices on the same network these are managed by their AP. This management is why one can have one device on a low wireless speed and another on a higher one, the AP changes the modulation of its' transmission / expected receive bursts depending on which device it is addressing at the time. By reducing the speed of the network artificially you are just hamstringing the devices that previously were on higher speeds.

The extended band for 802.11N is 5GHz btw, not 5MHz. Broadcasting at 5MHz tends to result in a visit from Ofcom ;)

Summary - never drop speeds on wireless kit intentionally unless there are compatibility issues between your wireless router and wireless dongle / card which are causing problems at 300Mbit, in that instance drop to mixed mode so that the problem devices can acquire at 54Mbps / 802.11G or get wireless dongles / cards which are properly compatible with the 802.11N standard.

[jason4656]

well i have just downloaded a test file of 10gb :) and it gave me 5.99mb/s solid on wireless on the mac so I would say thats about perfect? well pleased with that. Do people find they get capped on the 50mb? and at what point?

[Ignitionnet]

well i have just downloaded a test file of 10gb :) and it gave me 5.99mb/s solid on wireless on the mac so I would say thats about perfect? well pleased with that. Do people find they get capped on the 50mb? and at what point?

No sir, no capping at all.

Glad your wireless is rocking now. Mine even using the WNR has been fine throughout, drops a bit in some dead spots but solid full speed in most rooms.

[jason4656]

i have no doubt it will be up and down and this debate will go on for a long while while trying different things :) but for now, im happy :)

[Ignitionnet]

i have no doubt it will be up and down and this debate will go on for a long while while trying different things :) but for now, im happy :)

Good man. If it slows down again have a think about changing the Wifi channel.

[roughbeast]

Data will never go from the cable modem to the router at 1Gbps.

That is not why I have 1000Mbs ethernet. It is for internal network purposes only. eg HD Video streaming to more than one outlet at a time.

Good to see things are working better Jason.

I just noticed something weird with my Netgear n-adaptor laptop. Even though it is connected, through one ceiling only, at 300Mbs, it is currently only downloading at 6.0Mb

An identical lappy, in the same room as my WNDR3700 router, but with a 54Mb connection downloads at 30Mbs+.

Just when you think you have it all sorted something pops up. So now I have to test router to lappy transfer rate and packet loss to see what's up.

A nerds work is never done! :juggle:

[Sephiroth]

i have no doubt it will be up and down and this debate will go on for a long while while trying different things :) but for now, im happy :)

For the sake of others who follow with this issue, any chance you could set out the "as was" and "as is" settings? So that it's in one place.

Glad you're sorted. Thanks

[Ignitionnet]

That is not why I have 1000Mbs ethernet. It is for internal network purposes only. eg HD Video streaming to more than one outlet at a time.

Just as well really that what I mentioned was nothing to do with your network but was referring to Seph's comment about modems sending data to routers at 1Gbps. I appreciate that the fastest connection anyone posting about Virgin cable and its' supplied routers will have will be 53Mbps unless one of the blessed few in Ashford.

[roughbeast]

Just updated my Netgear N11 adaptor drivers. That did the trick. Back to 30Mbs+ on all my wireless machines.

[jason4656]

my vaio on windows 7 doesnt seem to want to compete with the imac and they are right next to each other, one will do 40mb and one will do 3mb the sony being slower cant work out why on them

[Sephiroth]

my vaio on windows 7 doesnt seem to want to compete with the imac and they are right next to each other, one will do 40mb and one will do 3mb the sony being slower cant work out why on them

What happens when they're working separately? Near 50 on each? And what is the configuration now so that we have it one place for looking at the new question?

[jason4656]

what configuration would you like to know?

i obviously dont run the tests at the same time? lol

here is on the vaio
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/01/13.png

and directly after it on the mac, sat next to each other in same room
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/01/14.png

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

btw changing to use the same servers ie bham coventry gives slightly different reading but not enough to make it worth noting

---------- Post added at 09:39 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

ok, in the settings on the vaio, i have enabled throughput enhancement in the settings, which is within the device manager properties of the wireless card, which seems to have made a big difference, am getting = speeds on them both now, there are alot of settings on the vaio hardware, but I dont know where they are on a mac

[Sephiroth]

OK - as you've got equal speeds on the two PCs we don't need to go into the settings. I think the final piece in the jigsaw is to run simultaneous speed tests to see how it all behaves. If you got downloads going simultaneously, you'd have a definitive outcome IMI.

A speed test preferably using http://www.virginmedia.com/testmyspeed/manual.php.

[jason4656]

ok downloading this file

http://gamefiles.virginmedia.com/blueyondergames/demos/eandb_demo.exe

both using the same setup firefox latest version and dta set to download on max segments which is how i always use it.

the mac goes straight to 5.4 mb/s and stays there solid

the sony goes to 600kb stays there, slowly creeps up to 3.37mb/s by half way through the 1gb file and thats the best it got

so there is a difference

thanks

[Sephiroth]

ok downloading this file

http://gamefiles.virginmedia.com/blueyondergames/demos/eandb_demo.exe

both using the same setup firefox latest version and dta set to download on max segments which is how i always use it.

the mac goes straight to 5.4 mb/s and stays there solid

the sony goes to 600kb stays there, slowly creeps up to 3.37mb/s by half way through the 1gb file and thats the best it got

so there is a difference

thanks

For accuracy, let's get the bps and BPS right.

Assuming they were running at the same time:

MAC = 5.4 MB/s
PC = 0.6 MB/s rising to 3.4 MB/s

I take it that the 3.4 MB/s occurred when the Mac had finished its download.

The 5.4 + 0.6 is exactl;y what a fully performing downstream would deliver.

So, do we need to look at the PC and it's wireless settings?

[jason4656]

yes those are correct, i ran them separately of course. I am presuming 50mb is available on 1 pc at a time, not both of course, so I wouldnt try to get simultaneous 50mb connections

The card in the vaio is intel 5100 AGN

There are 13 properties in the hardware settings each with a value

in relation to 802.11n there are

802.11n channel width for band 2.4 / value = auto / choice = 20mhz only or auto
802.11n channel width for band 5.2 / value = auto / choice = 20mhz only or auto
802.11n mode / value = enabled / choice = enabled or disabled

[Sephiroth]

I was trying to get you to run them simultaneously. But you say you ran them separately. Can you confirm what you actually did? Then we'll return to the Vaio question.

[jason4656]

downloaded on mac waited till finished then ran same test on other pc

[Sephiroth]

You've never told us the router you have. (Nonody'd asked!). Now need to know.

I would suggest doing the downloads simultaneously. I think also we've got quite a way to go to bottom this out.

When you've done the downloads with the laptops in the current position, can you swap them round and report. Even if the Vaio speed increases slightly, it'll speak to the effect of the PC that's nearest to the wireless router getting better service (because the signal is slightly stronger).

Then there's the 5100 AGN and its configuration. There's a lot of stuff about on this. Have a look at these two links and compare against your configuration. As we're focusing now on the Vaio, simultaneous tests won't be necessary for the next stages.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=338409&page=2
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=335716
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=441742 (for debate on bluetooth kept off)

Let us know.

[jason4656]

i have a dlink dir 615

this post is interesting
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=4362670&postcount=16