View Full Version : Virgin Media Equipment has Been Compromised
Hi
I have a statement by VIRGIN MEDIA to BT WHOLESALE that reads the following:
"We suspect all are artificially inflating traffic by compromising Virgin Media equipment"
This statement was submitted by Virgin Media to BT Wholesale to avoid paying for calls to certain numbers in July 2009
Virgin has also been submitting these claims over the last few years.
I have proof as I am in the industry.
They are then charging end users for these calls, So they are disputing them in the industry and then charging residential customers for these calls. I HAVE PROOF.
I Have been in the telecoms industry for 15 years. I am a MD for several telecoms companies.
Virgin are billing claiming in the industry that their equipment has been compromised. If this is true then every customer on Virgin Media needs to question their bill over the last 10 years.
Thats a bold first post m8. Welcome, by the way.
Thanks, jsut getting fed up with the response I get within the industry. Any proof or evidence I have it. Virgin Media are claiming on a monthly basis that their equipment has been compromised and so are getting out of paying other networks but they dont tell the end user this and so massive profits.
---------- Post added at 01:16 ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 ----------
But if their equipment is being compromised on a monthly basis then everybody on Virgin media needs to demand a review of their bill. All the residential customers bills must be incorrect. I have proof and documentation that has been submitted to BT Wholesale.
I will post a video tomorrow. this is all true. The reason Im posting this is Im fed up with running services and not getting paid for them because of Virgin media putting in AIT retention claims every month. The excuse is the same every month that their service is being compromised. BUT they wont tell then end user this.
A couple of things
1) Since when do companies claim or make disputes via Video? Surely it would be text documentation?
2) If you don't work for Virgin Media how do you know that the disputed calls are being charged to customers?
All will be explained in my videos.
let me just expalin some facts here.
I am the managing director of 3 Telecoms companies. We run Premium rate services.
We advertise these services accross a wide variety of print and online media.
Over the last 4 months we have not been paid for calls to our services from Virgin Media lines. In July alone we had olver 2000 pounds worth of calls made from Virgin Media lines. Virgin media keep putting in AIT retention notices every month.
Whats AIT?
AIT is Artificially Inflated Traffic.
In other words Virgin Media claim that the 2000 pounds was artificially inflated. the reason for this claim is as follows:
"we suspect all are artificially inflating traffic by compromising Virgin Media equipment"
That is the claim by Virgin Media and so they dont pay the bill.
But hang on a second, do they tell the end user that? NO
I have those numbers on my residential bill and I have called Virgin Media and they have denied any such statement. They have told me as a residential customer that this would never happen and Virgin media would never say this.
So, on the one hand they wont pay my telecoms company for the calls to my numbers but on the other hand they insist on me paying for them on my residential biil.
Im taking this to court through my company and also taking them to court as a residential customer.
I have proof and statements from Virgin saying that their system has been compromised in more than 15 towns
---------- Post added at 02:04 ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 ----------
I have a list of over 15 towns in whch they say "Virgin media equipment has been compromised"
In other words all you Virgin Media customers need to question your bills as Virgin media are making statements saying that all of your bills are incorrect.
darren.b
11-09-2009, 08:20
"Premium services."
Dialer software perhaps?
Any "MD" that posts on an open forum like this making accusations really needs to think about their position.
My point is that Virgin Media are not telling the end users ie residential customers that the network is being compromised they are still collecting the revenue which is fraudulant.
Paul - Thanks for the advice, Im posting here to hopefully get a response from somebody as im being ignored month in month out. Im only a small company but Virgin now owes us in the region of twenty thousand pounds.
arcamalpha2004
11-09-2009, 10:53
My point is that Virgin Media are not telling the end users ie residential customers that the network is being compromised they are still collecting the revenue which is fraudulant.
Paul - Thanks for the advice, Im posting here to hopefully get a response from somebody as im being ignored month in month out. Im only a small company but Virgin now owes us in the region of twenty thousand pounds.
If as you state VM owe your company thousands, go through the small claims court, it's reasonably inexpensive, informal, if VM are found against then they pay your costs and the court makes an order against VM.
The proof you have can also be shown to the judge at the time, showing it here may not get you the thousands you claim they owe your company.
If you want to approach VM about this officially we can put you in touch with the relevant people. But in the meantime I urge you to rethink making public accusations like this.
I am dubious about this. If you are in the industry and have proof, why not initiate Legal action? At the very least, report it to OFCOM.
If Virgin are doing this, it is fraud on a massive scale.
arcamalpha2004
11-09-2009, 11:18
I am dubious about this. If you are in the industry and have proof, why not initiate Legal action? At the very least, report it to OFCOM.
If Virgin are doing this, it is fraud on a massive scale.
It could be a wind up from a disgruntled Customer, but if it is as serious as the person states they should report to OFCOM aswell as go through the small claims court to recover their money.
I am sure the NOTW would love a leader like that!
Time will tell.
It could be a wind up from a disgruntled Customer, but if it is as serious as the person states they should report to OFCOM aswell as go through the small claims court to recover their money.
I am sure the NOTW would love a leader like that!
Time will tell.
If it's a wind up then it stops now - I will not allow people to use this forum for that sort of thing.
If it's genuine - and I'm keeping an open mind on this - then action needs to be taken to deal with it.
My offer to pass all this on to our high level contacts in VM stands, if it's genuine then it's possible those at the top might not be aware of it.
Adam - send me a PM if you want me to pass it on, all information will be treated in confidence.
It could be a wind up from a disgruntled Customer, but if it is as serious as the person states they should report to OFCOM aswell as go through the small claims court to recover their money.
I am sure the NOTW would love a leader like that!
Time will tell.
This is why I am dubious.. If the OP is in the industry (and I am not saying he is not, I don't know), then he should know (or at least be able to find out) the correct procedures to follow or who to complain to.
He certainly wouldn't open himself to potential legal action by stating on a public forum that a company is committing fraud on a massive scale.
Russ B I have sent you a private message. Please put me in contact with your contacts at Virgin Media.
Thanks
AntiSilence
11-09-2009, 14:05
All the residential customers bills must be incorrect.
Mine won't be, as I pay £9 a month for 200 mins of talk time to any phone, anywhere (including mobiles in other countries) so as such I don't get billed for the calls unless I go over the 200 mins, which I don't.
AndyCambs
11-09-2009, 21:15
Any "MD" that posts on an open forum like this making accusations really needs to think about their position.
and learn to spell
Im still waiting for these Virgin contacts.
It's the weekend Adam....
An update:
I've been informed by Virgin Media that their activity in this is completely legal and done to protect their business.
I'm not party to the actual discussion between them and Adam, I'm sure he'll post any further information about this should he feel inclined.
webcrawler2050
15-09-2009, 16:09
I personally think, this is a wind up, sounds like somebody is miffed with Virgin's National Service and is trying to "cause" issues. Can this be closed, as there is nothing official from Virgin on this subject. Unless somebody can confirm this please?
I don't see any reason to close this thread. I've had official confirmation from one of our high level contacts at VM that what they are doing is ethical and legal. If Adam or anybody else wanted to challenge that then there avenues they can persue.
I would expect if it is confirmed that any calls have been made due to tampering any affected customer who had been incorrectly billed would have the calls refunded to them
Hi
Update:
Ive spoken to a representative at Virgin Media and he tells me that the Compromising of equipment is most probably Mux hacks. This is an ongoing problem for them month in month out.
Ok
I am fighting the AIT retentions for my companies as Virgin is still collecting the revenue for these numbers whether there is a "Mux Hack" or not. I can proove that Virgin is collectiong these revenues as I have paid my bills that have these very numbers that Virgin is claiming to be called via compromised equipment. I ahve been told that as a customer I would have to individually contest calls to those numbers and then go through a complaints procedure to get some sort of compensation.
I called Virgin Media as a residential customer on 09/09/09 and was told that I would have to write a letter to an address in Swansea to contest my bill. I questioned the numbers tha Virgin themselves have said in a statement to the industry:
"We suspect all are artificially inflating traffic by compromising Virgin Media equipment"
That is their own statement to BT Wholesale in defence of not paying their bill.
BUT I have these numbers on my residential bill and I have paid my bill. Agian I am told to go through the official complaints procedure in writing. So if I dont (and some people wont bother or give up) then Virgin pockets the revenue 100% profit.
This cant be legal. Virgin collecting revenue on calls that it claims are a result of compromised equipment.
After my initial enquiry as a residential customer on 09/09/09 the only way foreward is to write a letter to the Swanse address and see what happens.
Today 15/09/09 I have spkent to a Virgin Media cheif executive about this, I was told again that each individual must complain individually about numbers they dont recognise on their bill.
Hang on, not 100% of these customers will complain or follow it up, again big big profits for Virgin who dont automatically credit the accounts in question over calls they claim are a result of compromised equipment.
later today approx 3.00pm my entire home residential Virgin Media account was suspended. Broadband, TV and phone all suspened. I called customer services to find out what had happened. They told me
"Your account has been suspended as you made a statement to us that you are reufusing to pay us"
I couldnt believe what I was hearing, so if you make a complaint or dispute thats what happens. Account suspended.
I called the chief exec again at Virgin, he looked into the account and came back to me his explanation was different he told me it was a result of my bank payment not going through and they needed payment. I asked him why customer services had told me differently to which he told me that they didnt read the account notes properly. I paid him for services he said I owed to Virgin Media and he said he would lift the suspension.
That payment included ONCE AGAIN a payment for numbers on my bill which Virgin media keep saying are a result of compromised equipment. So once again even the contact at Virgin Media whch was given here is also happy to take payment for calls that have been made to numbers via compromised equipment.
So Virgin are still collection thousands of pounds on calls that they are disputing in the trade.
This cant be legal. I have received no credit for these calls and I suspect hundreds of other customers havnt either.
The call I made to Virgin on 09/09/09 I have recorded and will put on youtube as evidence that Virgin deny any knowledge of equipment being compromised but then in the industry get out of paying their bills by saying it does go on.
This must be an OFCOM matter surely?
You will be breaking the law if you put a recorded call on YouTube, if you haven't gained the other party's permission (ie, you asked them at the beginning of the conversation was it all right for the call to be recorded).
Ofcom (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consumer/advice/faqs/prvfaq3.htm)
Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?
Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimpol/crimreduc/regulation/part1/part1chapter1.html) where RIPA is posted.
Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?
No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.
Hope this helps.
The call I made to Virgin on 09/09/09 I have recorded and will put on youtube as evidence that Virgin deny any knowledge of equipment being compromised but then in the industry get out of paying their bills by saying it does go on.
You probably know this anyway but if you do upload the recording to youtube be sure the agent's name and any identifying information is removed.
Do I need to ask permission? When I called Virgin Media they say at the begining "Calls my be recorded" So I recorded it.
You still need permission of that individual agent unless you remove any identifying information from the recording.
You still need permission of that individual agent unless you remove any identifying information from the recording.
Russ, are you sure about it being legal with the removal of the person's identifying info?
This must be an OFCOM matter surely?
Then why don't you speak to OFCOM then?
So, Adam B, have you raised with VM the issue about these numbers appearing on your bill that you have no recollection of making, and what are they going to do about it?
Just for the record, threatening to or actually withholding payment of any service places you in risk of credit default, which can result in other credit related services such as a credit card from being withdrawn, or having your agreement altered, such as increasing the monthly interest rate.
You can make yourself a cause célèbre if you wish, but it could hurt you in the long run.
Toto I have raised the issue of calls on my bill with VM and they told me that I have to write in. I mentioned their claims of the equipment being compromised but they say that they would never make such a claim and the claim isnt true. I will post the recordings later.
Toto I have raised the issue of calls on my bill with VM and they told me that I have to write in. I mentioned their claims of the equipment being compromised but they say that they would never make such a claim and the claim isnt true. I will post the recordings later.
Not interested in the recording, as most are speculative given that one agent within a company cannot speak for the organization it represents on things it knows nothing about - or has not been told about.
You also need to remember that this clause option may not be known in part or whole by every VM employee, particularly front line staff.
So, you've written to them by now, and they are looking into these billing charges - good.
moaningmags
15-09-2009, 17:47
If you're the MD of 3 telecoms companies why don't you know the rules and regulations surrounding telephone calls, what you can and can't do with them? Why don't you already know when it's time to call OFCOM?
I surely can't the only person wondering about this.
I certainly wouldn't go on a 3rd party forum that's not connected to VM in any way to complain about not getting paid for calls as part of my business?!
I also find the dual complaint about VM odd. They would seem to be mutually exclusive
If the calls have been made from the line then the calls are being claimed back incorrectly and then his business would need to take that up with the appropriate regulators
If however the calls haven't been made then the claimback is correct and then the refund of calls to his personal Virgin Media account is the issue which would need to be escalated within VM as per the standard process that customers have to make.
webcrawler2050
15-09-2009, 17:59
Toto I have raised the issue of calls on my bill with VM and they told me that I have to write in. I mentioned their claims of the equipment being compromised but they say that they would never make such a claim and the claim isnt true. I will post the recordings later.
Recordings mean nothing and can't be used unless you have told they person, you are recording the call at the very start of the phone call.
Barry Issell
16-09-2009, 00:26
Adam, PM me about this.
I've been watching this thread and had to make comment.
We had £250k's worth of July's revenue withheld on an 'AIT retention'. To be fair O8 are fighting it for us - but not holding our breath.
We had quite a lump in February as well, plus a whole number range barred from the network to add insult to injury.
Like yourself we've been in the business for quite a few years and this can certainly hurt - especially the smaller start-ups who are putting a load into advertisng etc..
Glad someone has had the balls to speak out about it - maybe a few more SP's will come out now and we can launch some sort of class action lawsuit after comparing notes ? :mad:
We have had approx 100+ numbers barred from Virgin Network. Loss of revenue lawsuit is a must I think.
---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 ----------
the thing is as I keep telling people here, The end users are still being billed and are paying for these numbers???
What a scam
---------- Post added at 02:27 ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 ----------
Barry we must talk
This is getting stranger by the minute - is it me, or am I seeing the same person speaking to himself?
Bottom line - any MD worth his salt would know how to deal with this properly and professionally - using the appropriate channels. Listing these so-called AIT's in this manner just smacks of attention seeking.
It would seem then that if VM are not paying revenues to the companies involved, that would suggest they have had complaints from their customers about said telephone numbers, and they have upheld those complaints
Perhaps Adam and Barry would be willing to be forthcoming as to what businesses they are running, as full disclosure may give some credibility to their claims.
Barry Issell
16-09-2009, 11:00
10/10 Toto.
Of course it's attention seeking ! If you're not in the game then you can't expect to understand how it works.
'Using the appropriate channels' - WTF ! - This is the Premium Rate industry we're talking about here !!
One of the points the OP has made is that VM has withheld ALL revenue on the basis that ALL calls made were AIT.
This is clearly bul***it as the OP made calls to his own Premium Rate numbers (as do we - it's called a line test) and not been paid out for them.
Another point, and Adam will back me up on this - VM always round up calls to a full minute - yet they only pay over the exact amount of seconds made to BT wholesale. Again this is going on with every single call made on their network - a seperate issue I know and maybe a topic for another thread but I thought it important to mention.
Adam, we've been down the route of OFCOM and they are only interested in protecting the consumer - this is internal within the industry and rests mainly on the shoulders of BT Wholesale to address.
The point is, VM are sitting on £millions of unpaid revenue and some would perceive (ourselves included) that in itself to be fraudulently obtained.
Mux hacks are way off the mark and we had that excuse from VM. Adam, you will not get anywhere with the 'Cheif Exec', if it is who I think it is. The real VM players don't want to talk - you hit a brick wall.
So how do VM explain an 09 being promoted solely on National Television with perfectly natural organic traffic as being legit - the answer ? - they don't. They stick an AIT claim into BTW and hope to get away with it. FACT.
If there were legit customer complaints then BT, Voda, o2 etc. would all be banging in an AIT retention on the same number range - they don't, only VM.
Speaks for itself really..
10/10 Toto.
Of course it's attention seeking ! If you're not in the game then you can't expect to understand how it works.
'Using the appropriate channels' - WTF ! - This is the Premium Rate industry we're talking about here !!
One of the points the OP has made is that VM has withheld ALL revenue on the basis that ALL calls made were AIT.
This is clearly bul***it as the OP made calls to his own Premium Rate numbers (as do we - it's called a line test) and not been paid out for them.
Another point, and Adam will back me up on this - VM always round up calls to a full minute - yet they only pay over the exact amount of seconds made to BT wholesale. Again this is going on with every single call made on their network - a seperate issue I know and maybe a topic for another thread but I thought it important to mention.
Adam, we've been down the route of OFCOM and they are only interested in protecting the consumer - this is internal within the industry and rests mainly on the shoulders of BT Wholesale to address.
The point is, VM are sitting on £millions of unpaid revenue and some would perceive (ourselves included) that in itself to be fraudulently obtained.
Mux hacks are way off the mark and we had that excuse from VM. Adam, you will not get anywhere with the 'Cheif Exec', if it is who I think it is. The real VM players don't want to talk - you hit a brick wall.
So how do VM explain an 09 being promoted solely on National Television with perfectly natural organic traffic as being legit - the answer ? - they don't. They stick an AIT claim into BTW and hope to get away with it. FACT.
If there were legit customer complaints then BT, Voda, o2 etc. would all be banging in an AIT retention on the same number range - they don't, only VM.
Speaks for itself really..
OK, points made that can't really be corroborated, but I don't have a problem with that, its not my issue because I don't use premium rate services.
So again, are you and Adam prepared to divulge what your "telecoms" business is, something that can be checked as legitimate?
Oh,sorry forgot this bit:
Another point, and Adam will back me up on this - VM always round up calls to a full minute - yet they only pay over the exact amount of seconds made to BT wholesale. Again this is going on with every single call made on their network - a seperate issue I know and maybe a topic for another thread but I thought it important to mention.
Do your respective premium rate services charge by the second, no rounding up to the nearest 30 seconds or minute?
Virgin have just put yet another AIT retention into BT Wholesale for August.
And yes, Virgin are still billing the customers for the calls.
This is mass fraud.
Virgin have just put yet another AIT retention into BT Wholesale for August.
And yes, Virgin are still billing the customers for the calls.
This is mass fraud.
Hi Adam, can you explain to us why Virgin are still billing their customers for your service when you state in post #41 that they have barred over a 100 of your premium numbers?
They have barred them now, they never used to be barred. Every month the submit an AIT retention claim they then barr access to those numbers.
The thing is I dont believe there is any hacking. Virgin are doing this to get out of paying us but then bill the customers. Massive profits for Virgin.
They have barred them now, they never used to be barred. Every month the submit an AIT retention claim they then barr access to those numbers.
The thing is I dont believe there is any hacking. Virgin are doing this to get out of paying us but then bill the customers. Massive profits for Virgin.
So from this point on, or when you noticed your numbers were barred, there will be no further charges to VM customers?
I dont know, Virgin will probably still bill customers.
I dont know, Virgin will probably still bill customers.
I doubt that.
So, what services are VM customers being denied since they started blocking your numbers?
I don't think it matters what sort of service Adam is providing. VM have stated their position so repeating the same points here over and over won't do any good. If someone feels they have a legal case then let them have their day in court.
I think 1000s of customers should have their day in court for being charged calls that Virgin state are being made via compromised equipment.
Of course I say again I dont believe any equipment has been compromised but Virgin keep making that statement month in month out to get out of paying their bills.
If and I say IF Virgin Media equipment was being compromised then each and every one of you Virgin customers needs to question your bill. Also as I say again If Virgin Media equipment is being compromised then why are customers still being billed for calls? I repeat I have been billed for calls that Virgin are claiming are a result of compromised equipment so here we go again, Virgin are collecting revenue from THOUSANDS of customers while making statement about THOSE VERY CALLS to the industry stating that they are calls made via compromised equipment. Its all a big scam.
An update, Ive managed to get an AIT retention by Virgin for June reversed. Virgin couldnt substaintiate their claims. Of course they couldnt.
Virgin are scamming the industry or the end user or both.
I have detailed information from the networks of all the calls made to my numbers. Im going to call all the customers and see if they paid the phone bill and ask them if they made the calls.
I have detailed information from the networks of all the calls made to my numbers. Im going to call all the customers and see if they paid the phone bill and ask them if they made the calls.
I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure that would break the Data Protection Act
Sorry, there are some elements of this discussion that are not ringing true here, but I'll not bring myself into a protracted argument and leave it at that.
Barry Issell
16-09-2009, 16:13
Adam, DO NOT CALL THE CUSTOMERS.
Are you looking at an EFO.? (will understand if you don't answer either way).
For the people who are wondering what an EFO is. It is an internal VM 'Extended Format Output' datafield that details Switch Code, Start Date of call, Start Time of Call, End Date of Call, End Time, Duration (in seconds !!), Originating Number, Terminating Number, Answer Detect (Y/N), Valid Staus, Valid Code, Billing Number, Divert Detect, Sequence Number, Input Filename and CDR Type.
If you are privy to this information (and not many outside VM are) then it should in theory be an open and shut 'no argument' case.
Certainly in our case (and possibly many many others) this is not the case at all.
VM just don't pay - stating 'AIT'.
Yes Adam, it would appear we are lookning at wholesale fraud here on the part of VM. :shocked:
LondonRoad
16-09-2009, 16:50
Die you know Barry Issell is an anagram of Barr sly lies.? ;)
Re Barry, forum members may find this of interest.
Saynoto0870.com (http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1249512983/0) thread
joglynne
16-09-2009, 19:34
Re Barry, forum members may find this of interest.
Saynoto0870.com (http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1249512983/0) thread
Thanks for the link foreverwar. That thread provides a very interesting read.
The simple solution is for all these money grabbing "services" to be banned!!
Mick Fisher
22-09-2009, 19:52
The simple solution is for all these money grabbing "services" to be banned!!
:clap:
You mean like this
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/17/us_premium_line_regulator_acts/
The premium rate phone regulator has moved to stamp out charges levied by operators for information provided elsewhere for free. It also objected to operators promoting premium-rate services on websites with the .org suffix.
deltanine
24-09-2009, 18:39
The simple solution is for all these money grabbing "services" to be banned!!
:clap:
I'll second that!
*Begin rant*
FFS!
All of a sudden the "pack mentality" closes in.
Internet forums really DO bring out the best in people, dont they?
How would you all feel if VM WERE shafting you all like he says?
Sounds as though theres a possibility he's right?
Who cares what business he's in? Who knows what it is...does it actually matter?
Is it relevant to this thread?
The Guy seems to be raising a fair point which might affect us all.
After reading this I'm asking VM to list my call charges individuallyon my bill.
*end of rant*
There, that feels beter. :)
Out to Gazjam
Finally somebody has got it!!!
I know you guys on here dont care wether I get paid for my premium rate calls or not. I know you guys may hate premium rate guys like myself but Im tryng to tell you Virgin media is screwing each and every customer EVERY month and I have PROOF.
Virgin Ive had enough. i still havnt been paid the thousands of pounds revenue you owe my company and I expect thousands if not millions you owe other companies.
Ive put massive pressure on every telco I can over this. BT Wholesale for one and Ive had enough. Im taking the lot of you to court for MASSIVE fraud against my company and each and every Virgin media customer.
Ive called Virgin media yet again over my personal home phone bill and guess what I HAVE TO PAY IT on the very numbers that Virgin wont pay revenue to network providers.
VIRGIN YOU SCAMMERS.
Im also in talks with the BBC and their Watchdog program.
Once again I know you dont care about the thousands Im owed butI think you might care when yourealise Virgin media are scamming you month in month out. I ahve evidence in the industry to PROVE this.
---------- Post added at 04:35 ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 ----------
Im going to post videos with evidence and a vlog following this story. Im sorry Virgin Ive had enough.
<snip>Im tryng to tell you Virgin media is screwing each and every customer EVERY month and I have PROOF.
<snip>
See, this is why comments like this are met with some incredulity. It has nothing to do with the so called forum "pack mentality" Gazjam
I do not use premium rate numbers, so where does your statement stand now? How are Virgin Media ripping me off?
zing_deleted
17-10-2009, 08:59
I see a lot of people jumping on this guys back thinking it is a wind up and disbelieving what he is saying when VM themselves have as good as admitted it to an independant party
An update:
I've been informed by Virgin Media that their activity in this is completely legal and done to protect their business.
I'm not party to the actual discussion between them and Adam, I'm sure he'll post any further information about this should he feel inclined.
That is an admittance. So Adam is telling the truth otherwise VM would have given a denial to Russ unless all you jumping on Adams back wish also to jump on Russ's and besmirch his character also
That is an admittance. So Adam is telling the truth otherwise VM would have given a denial to Russ unless all you jumping on Adams back wish also to jump on Russ's and besmirch his character also
Not necessarily. Virgin did not say to Russ what they had done, merely that what they had done was legal. We only know what Adam says they did, which could be quite different to what they did.
It's also worth noting that even if they were to admit to doing something wrong, it is unlikely that they would do so to a member of the team of a public forum, especially one that is not only not owned by Virgin, but is actually considered by some of the management to be a pain in the proverbial.
This is a great thread. I've got to tell all my friends! :group::hyper::hyper:
Then what will you do after you have rung both of them?
zing_deleted
18-10-2009, 19:28
Not necessarily. Virgin did not say to Russ what they had done, merely that what they had done was legal. We only know what Adam says they did, which could be quite different to what they did.
Oh come on VM are not a clean company
Russ said to Adam that he would pass information on. So if this happened the details went through Russ they then replied to Russ with what I see as an admittal of doing something along the lines of the accusation. If they were clean and innocent they would have replied with an outright denial
Oh come on VM are not a clean company
Please tell me where I said that. I said that they haven't said what they did, I also said that what they did may be different to what Adam says. They were the ones who said what they did was legal. I did not say that what they did was either legal or "clean".
Then what will you do after you have rung both of them?
I have 3. one more than you by the sounds of it :D
Oh come on VM are not a clean company
Russ said to Adam that he would pass information on. So if this happened the details went through Russ they then replied to Russ with what I see as an admittal of doing something along the lines of the accusation. If they were clean and innocent they would have replied with an outright denial
As far as I am aware, they did not pass details on to Russ about what they had done, merely that it was legal.
They certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to say anything that could be considered admission of doing anything wrong in a public forum. I am not discussing whether what they did was right or wrong as I don't know whether it was. I am merely pointing out that only Adam and Virgin know what was discussed, and we only have Adam's word to go on.
I have 3. one more than you by the sounds of it :D
As usual, your post is based on assumptions and lack of knowledge. ;)
zing_deleted
18-10-2009, 19:43
As far as I am aware, they did not pass details on to Russ about what they had done, merely that it was legal.
They certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to say anything that could be considered admission of doing anything wrong in a public forum. I am not discussing whether what they did was right or wrong as I don't know whether it was. I am merely pointing out that only Adam and Virgin know what was discussed, and we only have Adam's word to go on.
Didnt Russ pass on information then? as the offer was made near the start of this thread?
Oh come on VM are not a clean company
Russ said to Adam that he would pass information on. So if this happened the details went through Russ they then replied to Russ with what I see as an admittal of doing something along the lines of the accusation. If they were clean and innocent they would have replied with an outright denial
Seriously now, you need to stop reading things in to matters you have no knowledge of - such as what was discussed in my communication with them about this.
VM have told me that their involvement in this issue (ie their version of the story, not necessarily Adam's) is completely legal and above board.
Didnt Russ pass on information then? as the offer was made near the start of this thread?
No, Russ said
If you want to approach VM about this officially we can put you in touch with the relevant people. But in the meantime I urge you to rethink making public accusations like this.
Now, I don't know if VM did discuss details of this with Russ, but I suspect they wouldn't as we are an outside party. As such, they probably wouldn't risk telling us details in case of legal action.
VM have told me that their involvement in this issue (ie their version of the story, not necessarily Adam's) is completely legal and above board.
They obviously know about the thread?
what I don't get (be it legal in their eyes) is the taking of our money and not passing it on. to the normal person that will look like fraud.
they're billing you for calls, and then them very same calls they are disputing over and not paying the third party.
money floating around, it's not being disputed and given back as a result.
How do you know that if they have claimed any money back that they haven't refunded the customers? You are working off the OP statements that they haven't
How do you know that if they have claimed any money back that they haven't refunded the customers? You are working off the OP statements that they haven't
From what has been said, they don't pay the bill, and each individual must complain individually about numbers they dont recognise on their bill.
The conspiracy is that they stopped itemising the calls, making it much harder to dispute a call that may well have been caused through their compromised equipment.
That's what has been said by one person. Virgin have not specifically addressesed the allegations that the OP has made.
As for itemisation there has been no change on itemisation. You have always had to request full itemisation. In fact it used to cost £1 a month, it is now free
I have no idea whether the OP allegations are true or not (And if they are I would not defend Virgin in any way), but personally I find the very fact that rather than take it up with OFCOM or address it through the courts, the OP makes unsubstanciated allegations on a public forum a bit iffy.
moaningmags
18-10-2009, 21:09
I've always had full itemisation and have never had any premium rate call charges I didn't make, I do however have £30 in call charges to an 0845 number, being SAAS and over an hour on each call.
webcrawler2050
18-10-2009, 23:18
That's what has been said by one person. Virgin have not specifically addressesed the allegations that the OP has made.
As for itemisation there has been no change on itemisation. You have always had to request full itemisation. In fact it used to cost £1 a month, it is now free
I have no idea whether the OP allegations are true or not (And if they are I would not defend Virgin in any way), but personally I find the very fact that rather than take it up with OFCOM or address it through the courts, the OP makes unsubstanciated allegations on a public forum a bit iffy.
Which will all work against him in a court
arcamalpha2004
19-10-2009, 10:25
The complainant, or, complainants, because it is apparently more than one individual, can take this up through the legal system, seeing as now VM seem to have denied any wrong doing.
It is a pain free process which involves the paying of a court fee and a local District Judge will decide on the case.
It is very informal and can even be applied for online.
Just a question, if these accusations turned out to be true, what has happened to the money that has been charged to customers but part of which was not allegedly passed on to the complainants company?
We can only hope that it does end up in court so we find out, but it is no good the complainant only taking out their frustrations, warranted or not, on here, I do not think VM are going to back down on these boards when they feel they have done nothing wrong.
Another point, if the complainants are so concerned about the customer, get in touch with watchdog, they would love a story like this.
Also, if VM management think this Forum is a pain in the backside, why carry a VM logo ? are the Forum getting a fee for doing so?
Also, if VM management think this Forum is a pain in the backside, why carry a VM logo ? are the Forum getting a fee for doing so?
We most certainly do not get a fee for doing so. The logo is used purely to make the cable forums more easily identifiable. You'll notice we also carry Sky logos.
As for the the statement about being a pain in the backside, I have heard this from various staff members. Officially, they are co-operating. Unofficially a lot of managers consider us to be a bad thing.
zing_deleted
19-10-2009, 10:39
Seriously now, you need to stop reading things in to matters you have no knowledge of - such as what was discussed in my communication with them about this.
VM have told me that their involvement in this issue (ie their version of the story, not necessarily Adam's) is completely legal and above board.
so you know the truth and are obviously not prepared to divulge the information. Meaning only you and Adam know whats happened here and everyone else is reading things into matters we have no knowledge of
---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------
No, Russ said
Now, I don't know if VM did discuss details of this with Russ, but I suspect they wouldn't as we are an outside party. As such, they probably wouldn't risk telling us details in case of legal action.
Russ just said in the post above yours ;)
On the whole with all the secrets and everything else thats been going on with VM policy at this juncture I would tend to side on not trusting VM as far as I could throw them and seeing as they are a corperation and have big buildings its nowhere lol
By the way at what they said to Russ about not doing anything illegal there is a difference between Legal and Moral isnt there. There are lots of things I can legally do but they are not all gonna be Just
arcamalpha2004
19-10-2009, 11:05
We most certainly do not get a fee for doing so. The logo is used purely to make the cable forums more easily identifiable. You'll notice we also carry Sky logos.
As for the the statement about being a pain in the backside, I have heard this from various staff members. Officially, they are co-operating. Unofficially a lot of managers consider us to be a bad thing.
Stuart, I was not having a pop at anyone.
Why would the logo make this forum " more easily identifiable " ?
If I google " Cable Forum " the first result I get is this Forum.
But thanks for clarifying things, just that if I felt that someone thought that the service I give was a pain in the proverbial I would not give them free advertsing, be they VM or SKY.
By the way at what they said to Russ about not doing anything illegal there is a difference between Legal and Moral isnt there. There are lots of things I can legally do but they are not all gonna be Just
Very true. legal and moral, don't always go together.
especially when you're VM :)
Seriously, if this is true then someone needs to look into it. the OP says that he has had talks with the CEO and others, so they know what he's talking about, and are aware of what he's claiming. and I'm sure the mods have done some detective work on his IP.
I really shouldn't have to clarify this sort of thing as I have no agenda for or against VM. I'm not going to post the contents of the email as I have not been given permission from the person who sent it (there's no law involved but of courtesy I'd want to give permission if it was my email being discussed) but the gist was "what VM are going in this matter is legal and ethical". Whether what VM say they are doing is what Adam says they're doing is a different matter and the answer to which I just don't know.
Now feel free to make up your minds.
zing_deleted
19-10-2009, 11:46
I already have. We do not know the full truth but for VM imo to respond to you how they have instead of a stright denial leads me to believe something has gone on.
Gary L You have got it.
Virgin Media get out of paying their phone bills by saying that their equipment has been compromised.
They then bill their own end users for that same traffic.
Mass profits for Virgin
Mass FRAUD
Videos will come next Ive had it.
Adam B
Ok
Im not giving up on this. Virgin Media are liars.
Im posting regular videos to PROVE that Virgin Media bill customers for phone calls and then LIE about them and then dont pay network providers.
Virgin Media are a bunch of scammers.
Virgin pay the networks what you owe and stop scamming the end user.
---------- Post added at 02:28 ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 ----------
And stop scamming the networks
Welshchris
05-11-2009, 03:26
and where r the videos?
All videos posted over the next ferw days
---------- Post added at 04:05 ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 ----------
Part one introduction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYqsHPWL8z8
This is part one introduction to Virgin Scamming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYqsHPWL8z8
Some of those premium numbers are calls to explicit sex lines.
Did this really need another thread?
This is part one introduction to Virgin Scamming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYqsHPWL8z8
Something smells fishy about that. Who on earth has that many premium rate numbers on their bill without being sure whether or not they were actually called? The first thing I'd do is google the numbers and see if it came up with any company I'd be likely to call.
In any case Adam you've been going on about this for 2 months now - when's the court date?
LOL, he can't even remember calling those numbers, but he may have called them?????
Fishier than Bilingsgate market.
I just want my phone company to get paid by Virgin who owe us in the region of 10 grand.
My personal bill has like 10 pounds of calls on it, that AIT retention in the video is for £2000 I can show you the stats for those calls that have come straight off Virgins switch. The calls are all from different numbers from different towns.
My point once again is Virgin are witholding payments to networks claiming that their equipment has been compromised but when challenged by a residential customer who calls in and says he is unsure of those VERY same numbers Virgin tell the customer he MUST pay the bill.
So all of the 700 approx calls every month from different Virgin customers are paid by the customers but Virgin refuses to pay the networks and so boosts profits by 100 times. They are liars on one side or the other. They are keeping the total revenue 100% for themselves. They are liars and cheats. I estimate they could be doing this for millions a month.
Virgin pay your bills.
I just want my phone company to get paid by Virgin who owe us in the region of 10 grand.
My personal bill has like 10 pounds of calls on it, that AIT retention in the video is for £2000 I can show you the stats for those calls that have come straight off Virgins switch. The calls are all from different numbers from different towns.
My point once again is Virgin are witholding payments to networks claiming that their equipment has been compromised but when challenged by a residential customer who calls in and says he is unsure of those VERY same numbers Virgin tell the customer he MUST pay the bill.
So all of the 700 approx calls every month from different Virgin customers are paid by the customers but Virgin refuses to pay the networks and so boosts profits by 100 times. They are liars on one side or the other. They are keeping the total revenue 100% for themselves. They are liars and cheats. I estimate they could be doing this for millions a month.
Virgin pay your bills.
Adam, please pay attention.
For 2 months you've told us the same thing repeatedly and even posted a video clip which to be fair could be classed as questionable. I've got no intentions of telling you how to run your business but if it was me in your position I'd spend less time repeating the same thing over and over again on a web forum and invest more time in setting a court date aside for this to be sorted out once and for all.
LondonRoad
05-11-2009, 13:55
AdamB: Do you work for oxygen8 phone company or otherwise connected with them?
Adam, please pay attention.
For 2 months you've told us the same thing repeatedly and even posted a video clip which to be fair could be classed as questionable. I've got no intentions of telling you how to run your business but if it was me in your position I'd spend less time repeating the same thing over and over again on a web forum and invest more time in setting a court date aside for this to be sorted out once and for all.
After all, if the Court finds that Virgin are doing something illegal, they can take action against Virgin. We cannot do anything of the sort.
Adam, as with Russ, I would not tell you how to run your business but VM have assured us that whatever they are doing in legal. I cannot comment on whether it is or not, as I don't know for sure what they are doing and I am not a legal expert. We cannot force VM to take action, and by continually posting that they are doing something illegal, you are risking them initiating legal action against you.
I would recommend that you seek legal advice yourself, and see about getting a date in court.
devilincarnate
05-11-2009, 17:34
AdamB: Do you work for oxygen8 phone company or otherwise connected with them?
Just checked out one of the numbers on the bill on phonepayplus and this is what it came up with ( the numbers were shown at 3.51 on the video ) and they are all showing oxygen8 and this is the advice that they are giving :
PhonepayPlus has the following information about the premium rate number 09080824087.
•The number offers an Adult Content service. This is promoted through various sources including magazines, the internet and television and you use it with your telephone or mobile phone.
•This service costs £1.50 per minute (plus any phone network surcharges - check with your phone company for full details).
If you would like to find out more about this service you should contact the company listed below.
Oxygen8 Communications UK
12th Floor, Lyndon House
58-62 Hagley Road
Birmingham
B16 8PE
0808 206 0808
customerservices@oxygen8.com
I've watched the video and I think it's great :)
that letter disputing the call costs and the phone numbers listed is enough. they're on his bill so Virgin shouldn't be charging Adam or anyone for the numbers, when they say themselves they have been fraudulently made from their compromised equipment.
it's a bit like the police selling your stolen property and saying they never recovered it, whilst they're counting the proceeds out infront of you.
sorry mate, if it turns up we'll let you know :D
Im going to post some more videos of me calling Virgin Media as a residential customer and being told that I have to pay my bill and Virgin never said their equipment has been compromised.
I dont work at Oxygen8 I have a reseller account with them, I promote the services and get paid, well in this case not paid, for getting calls to the numbers.
I am going to have to edit the next videos because I uploaded one to Youtube and becaues it has Virgin Media hold music on it it was flagged for copyright issues! so Im going to have to edit out all of the On Hold bits with music in them or dub over something over the on hold parts.
Just think of all those Virgin Media customers who are paying bills that Virgin is disputing in the industry.
If youve a beef with them take it up with them. or at least keep it to one thread. boring or what?
Threads merged.
Please don't start multiple threads on the same topic.
I've watched the video and I think it's great :)
that letter disputing the call costs and the phone numbers listed is enough. they're on his bill so Virgin shouldn't be charging Adam or anyone for the numbers, when they say themselves they have been fraudulently made from their compromised equipment.
it's a bit like the police selling your stolen property and saying they never recovered it, whilst they're counting the proceeds out infront of you.
sorry mate, if it turns up we'll let you know :D
You may have watched the video, but I am not sure you have got the point.
This Adam person, since posting the video, has now claimed that:
I just want my phone company to get paid by Virgin who owe us in the region of 10 grand.So is this about his bills, or the cash he's loosing for his premium rate services or both.....this has never been made clear?
Now, according to the video Adam has claimed that VM are withholding money for the reason of artificial inflation of a premium rate service, or fraud, using a compromised equipment clause. Whether it is legal or not to use "compromised equipment clause" isn't the issue here. There is more to this than meets the eye, especially as his bill shows premium rate numbers on it he actually claims that he can't remember calling, or may have?
I wonder, does the company Adam runs or works for operate with any of those numbers on his bill? Their very clear to see, at least one of those numbers is owned by Opera Telecom, also known as Oxygen8 Communications UK.
Sorry, but I believe there is a lot more to this than Adam is letting on. I am not convinced he is totally innocent here, and that VM's reasons may be due to the artificial inflation of premium rate services are correct, hence non payment to BT.
Oh and for Adam I'd suggest black lining your VM account number off your bill next time you post a video of it. :)
He can claim Virgin are scamming thousands of people, and we only have his word for it, I'm not sure his word means that much based on his posts and that video.
Virgin Are still collecting revenue for these calls.
Ok
I will contact all of the customers who have called my services and they will tell you that they are paying the bills. Virgin is pocketing all of the money and then saying that their equipment is being compromised.
---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------
This also leaves Virgin open to charging whatever they want. Dont you guys get this? Im only a small company ane they have put in AIT retentions for 4 months solid on my company and 3 other companies that I know of. They just wont pay their bills.
But as a residential customer they deny any such statement. They say that they would NEVER say their equipment had been compromised. Why do they do that??
So imagine you have a dispute over numbers on your bill and you phone Virgin and tell thme this they will still tell you there is no issue with those numbers even though they are putting in AIT retentions on those VERY SAME SERVICES.
THAT IS MASS FRAUD
I estimate its millions a month
LondonRoad
05-11-2009, 21:12
Virgin Are still collecting revenue for these calls.
Ok
I will contact all of the customers who have called my services and they will tell you that they are paying the bills. Virgin is pocketing all of the money and then saying that their equipment is being compromised.
You are a reseller for them but all those premium number were on your bill. Is that correct?
Did you phone those numbers from your VM phone to try to get proof that you as a customer were being charged while you as a reseller were not being paid?
It did seem to be as you weren't being upfront. Throughout your video and most of you posts you are complaining from the customer perspective as if you haven't made the phone calls. Then it transpires that it is you as a business that isn't being paid for these calls. Is there a reason for that?
Apologies I've got it wrong.
Virgin Are still collecting revenue for these calls.
Ok
I will contact all of the customers who have called my services and they will tell you that they are paying the bills. Virgin is pocketing all of the money and then saying that their equipment is being compromised.
LOL
Haven't you already been advised that you may be breaking the law by calling customers back?
"Hey, Mr B, remember the ten times you called my premium rate service?
I can really see that working out. I think your case is weak, perhaps its time to stop the rhetoric and take VM to court if you think you have a case.
You are a reseller for them but all those premium number were on your bill. Is that correct?
Did you phone those numbers from your VM phone to try to get proof that you as a customer were being charged while you as a reseller were not being paid?
It did seem to be as you weren't being upfront. Throughout your video and most of you posts you are complaining from the customer perspective as if you haven't made the phone calls. Then it transpires that it is you as a business that isn't being paid for these calls. Is there a reason for that?
Apologies I've got it wrong.
I don't think you got it wrong, and if VM think they have anything to worry about in terms of a court case, they only need to look at that hilarious video on You Tube.
---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------
Virgin Are still collecting revenue for these calls.
Ok
I will contact all of the customers who have called my services and they will tell you that they are paying the bills. Virgin is pocketing all of the money and then saying that their equipment is being compromised.
---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------
This also leaves Virgin open to charging whatever they want. Dont you guys get this? Im only a small company ane they have put in AIT retentions for 4 months solid on my company and 3 other companies that I know of. They just wont pay their bills.
But as a residential customer they deny any such statement. They say that they would NEVER say their equipment had been compromised. Why do they do that??
So imagine you have a dispute over numbers on your bill and you phone Virgin and tell thme this they will still tell you there is no issue with those numbers even though they are putting in AIT retentions on those VERY SAME SERVICES.
THAT IS MASS FRAUD
I estimate its millions a month
Millions!!!!!
Oh for pities sake, your services are not that popular surely?
LondonRoad
05-11-2009, 21:25
I don't think you got it wrong, and if VM think they have anything to worry about in terms of a court case, they only need to look at that hilarious video on You Tube.
---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------
Millions!!!!!
Oh for pities sake, your services are not that popular surely?
If the people selling the service keep phoning it themselves then it could run into millions :D
There could also be a business opportunity for palm shavers too?
WestYorks
05-11-2009, 21:54
oh how I have laughed so much reading this thread, sounds like a broken record player over and over again!!!
The fact is if you have a problem then go to OFCOM or start legal proceedings against VM, whining on a forum & youtube doesn't work in favour for you one bit
Virgin Are still collecting revenue for these calls.
Ok
I will contact all of the customers who have called my services and they will tell you that they are paying the bills. Virgin is pocketing all of the money and then saying that their equipment is being compromised.
---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------
This also leaves Virgin open to charging whatever they want. Dont you guys get this? Im only a small company ane they have put in AIT retentions for 4 months solid on my company and 3 other companies that I know of. They just wont pay their bills.
But as a residential customer they deny any such statement. They say that they would NEVER say their equipment had been compromised. Why do they do that??
So imagine you have a dispute over numbers on your bill and you phone Virgin and tell thme this they will still tell you there is no issue with those numbers even though they are putting in AIT retentions on those VERY SAME SERVICES.
THAT IS MASS FRAUD
I estimate its millions a month
Adam, the fact you keep ignoring what I'm saying is making it look more and more as if you're hiding something in this to try to make VM look guilty of something.
Adam, the fact you keep ignoring what I'm saying is making it look more and more as if you're hiding something in this to try to make VM look guilty of something.
Not just what you've been saying Russ. :erm:
The thing that gets me in all of this is yeah, maybe VM are doing something wrong, but, by coming here acting like a disgruntled customer and going "I don't know if I've even called these numbers!" when they're YOUR numbers so ofc you know you have, and not disclosing you have a vested interest in this, you're taking what could be a legitimate complaint and making it lose all credibility.
Full disclosure on who you are and your vested interests in this is what is needed, not you trying to pass yourself off as some random customer with a bill full of misbilled calls that doesn't know anything about them.
Virgin Are still collecting revenue for these calls.
Ok
I will contact all of the customers who have called my services and they will tell you that they are paying the bills. Virgin is pocketing all of the money and then saying that their equipment is being compromised.
---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------
This also leaves Virgin open to charging whatever they want. Dont you guys get this? Im only a small company ane they have put in AIT retentions for 4 months solid on my company and 3 other companies that I know of. They just wont pay their bills.
But as a residential customer they deny any such statement. They say that they would NEVER say their equipment had been compromised. Why do they do that??
So imagine you have a dispute over numbers on your bill and you phone Virgin and tell thme this they will still tell you there is no issue with those numbers even though they are putting in AIT retentions on those VERY SAME SERVICES.
THAT IS MASS FRAUD
I estimate its millions a month
This problem you have is a Commercial issue you are running a business so I have no idea why this thread actually exists at all as this is Primarily a residential services forum and your argument is with the part of Virginmedia that supplies your commercial operation with the services that you then supply your own customers.
Everyone on here apart from you can call Virgins residential help lines for support, you cannot as you are a business therefore the is little reason for your continued rant against Virgin to continue on here.
You should look for and join a Commercial forum or do as you have stated on numerous occasions take Virgin to court.
Also you should refrain from posting silly comments in other threads that bear little or no relation to your issue as their issue will be a residential one not a commercial one.
Now now, whatever we think of someone's posts, we don't start telling them they shouldn't make them. :nono: Everyone's entitled to their say on here, so long as it's within the rules, and there is no rule against people with VM business problems.
Wild Oscar
08-11-2009, 11:38
I sympathise with the OP here .. it's hard enough running a small business these days without being given the run-around by a company who owe you a few grand and refusing to pay it!
.. and there may be a lot more of these small operators in the same boat .. who knows? .. it could all add up to a LOT of money which is earning interest for VM.
Surely, this thread has gotten to the point now where it should just be closed?
As has been said multiple times, the OP needs to contact their lawyers and make a claim, there is nothing that can come from this thread being here.
Surely, this thread has gotten to the point now where it should just be closed?
As has been said multiple times, the OP needs to contact their lawyers and make a claim, there is nothing that can come from this thread being here.
If the OP have something positive to say about any impending court case then maybe people would believe him, but as all he has done to date is try to gather support for his case in the most negative ways possible.
I rather think he knows he has no case for Virgin to answer and just comes on here to vent vitriol.
candy1567
08-11-2009, 20:57
Hi
am just an average cable customer who has read this long thread of repeated information.
from what i can make of it, as long as ur not makin these 09 premium calls to what i imagine is a call containing sexual content then u have nothing to worry about being overcharged for this.
also if u did need to do that and like hearing that sort of content from a call then the internet is a wierd and wonderful thing and its included in ur broadband package from virgin, u can visit these websites as much as u want even download the content if ur that way inclinded (subject to STM of course)!!!!!! lol
feel this thread is very long winded and needs to come to a conclusion, sooooooo the answer to all this is that all the 09 callers to these sort of calls check ur bills, and if ur not that way inclinded then u hav nothing to worry about.......lol
to adam.....u need to sort out which way u want to deal with this as ur not doin urself any favours acting like a schoolboy who has had his lollypop taken away, ur an adult and responsible for ur own actions, the only way u can resolve this is by making Virgin respond and u must do this through the legal system if u hav the evidence then its an open and shut case, but this is my OWN personal opinion that somthing is very fishy here and is not what it seems and u came on here to get ppl involved and gather information to support ur case. This is the only way to resolve this matter, but discussing this in this way on here really wont help u take this case to court, and how many customers are gonna admit to ringing these sexlines!!!!!!!
well thats my two penny worth,
candy1567
I sympathise with the OP here .. it's hard enough running a small business these days without being given the run-around by a company who owe you a few grand and refusing to pay it!
I'd have far more sympathy if the OP wasn't in one of the most dishonest businesses around, and if he hadn't shown himself to be entirely dishonest in his representation of the evidence.
His video of him as a seemingly normal customer with no idea what the calls are when he owns the numbers listed certainly does nothing to show the honesty and integrity with which I'm sure he conducts his business.
arcamalpha2004
09-11-2009, 09:27
I'd have far more sympathy if the OP wasn't in one of the most dishonest businesses around, and if he hadn't shown himself to be entirely dishonest in his representation of the evidence.
His video of him as a seemingly normal customer with no idea what the calls are when he owns the numbers listed certainly does nothing to show the honesty and integrity with which I'm sure he conducts his business.
The Don, Just a thought, you are entitled to view his business as you so wish, but surely, if it is " dishonest " or " sleezy " as some may feel, what are VM doing associating themselves with these businesses?
Just a thought ofcourse, if you want to start talking about morals.
Firstly I didn't say HIS business was dishonest (although I can see how it can be read as such), just that many in the same industry are, which means he has to tread carefully and make sure he doesn't come across as just another premium rate scam company, something he does himself no favours in doing by trying to pass himself off as just an ordinary consumer in his video. He may have a completely honest business, but because the premium rate number service is full of people that don't, he has to tread carefully to avoid being tarred with the same brush, which means full disclosure and not trying to pass himself off as a normal consumer with some odd numbers on his bill.
As for why they "associate" with them, because they have to?
Can you imagine a telephone provider where you COULDN'T dial any number you wanted? To not associate with them they'd have to ban all premium rate numbers from being dialed on their network, that's simply not going to happen.
The entire reason there are AIT requests in the first place are because people that run these numbers are renowned for fraudulently inflating traffic, be that by compromising equipment, or back in the days of dial up with their rogue dialers.
.. and there may be a lot more of these small operators in the same boat .. who knows? .. it could all add up to a LOT of money which is earning interest for VM.
That's why, if he thinks that VM is in the wrong, that he needs to get them to court rather than just complain on here.
I am not knocking this site, far from it, I wouldn't be on the site if I didn't think it worked well in it's aims (to give VM's customers help if they need it). However, the site does have it's limitations. We cannot force VM to co-operate if they don't want to.
They have claimed that what they are doing is legal when we referred the case. They did not tell us exactly what they are doing, As such, even assuming they are doing what the OP has claimed , then they certainly are not going to apologise for it, and if the OP carries on accusing them of fraud, they may start legal action against him.
Hi
Thanks for all of the advice, Ive removed the video on youtube for legal reasons. I am taking action and things have taken a positive move forward today.
I have some important meetings arranged over this issue including the BBC and OFCOM.
This is high level now and so this thread may now be closed unless you want the results posted here.
Thanks for all of the advice. This is a great forum.
Hi
Thanks for all of the advice, Ive removed the video on youtube for legal reasons. I am taking action and things have taken a positive move forward today.
I have some important meetings arranged over this issue including the BBC and OFCOM.
This is high level now and so this thread may now be closed unless you want the results posted here.
We'll leave it open :)
We'll leave it open :)
A new mod arrives on the scene:D
arcamalpha2004
10-11-2009, 04:41
Firstly I didn't say HIS business was dishonest (although I can see how it can be read as such), just that many in the same industry are, which means he has to tread carefully and make sure he doesn't come across as just another premium rate scam company, something he does himself no favours in doing by trying to pass himself off as just an ordinary consumer in his video. He may have a completely honest business, but because the premium rate number service is full of people that don't, he has to tread carefully to avoid being tarred with the same brush, which means full disclosure and not trying to pass himself off as a normal consumer with some odd numbers on his bill.
As for why they "associate" with them, because they have to?
Can you imagine a telephone provider where you COULDN'T dial any number you wanted? To not associate with them they'd have to ban all premium rate numbers from being dialed on their network, that's simply not going to happen.
The entire reason there are AIT requests in the first place are because people that run these numbers are renowned for fraudulently inflating traffic, be that by compromising equipment, or back in the days of dial up with their rogue dialers.
" I'd have far more sympathy if the OP wasn't in one of the most dishonest businesses around"
Your above quote can imo only be read to imply one thing Don, there is no " I can see how it can be read..."
And sorry to disagree, but VM like any company do not " Have to " associate themselves with such " Dishonest " companies as you called them.
Surely they cannot be that hard up for money.
If you can find anything that states that any company, be that VM or whoever " Have to " offer such services feel free to come back and I will retract.
I had an experience with VM a few years ago now where they attempted to bill me over £100 for calls that I know that I did not make, calls that were made apparently one after the other, it was rediculous, each call was for literally seconds, as if someone was calling the number then once they got through they were putting the phone down and redialling the number, one after the other, after the other, as I say this ammounted to over £100 worth of calls that we certainly did not make physically.
When I disputed the charges they were eventually, after having to pull nails, written off.
I am now with BT and oddly enough have not had such issues since.
I would never go back to VM for the telephone service even if I had to string two cans together to avoid them.
So sorry, they do not have to associate themselves with such companies, unless as I say you can prove that they do.
" I'd have far more sympathy if the OP wasn't in one of the most dishonest businesses around"
Your above quote can imo only be read to imply one thing Don, there is no " I can see how it can be read..."
And sorry to disagree, but VM like any company do not " Have to " associate themselves with such " Dishonest " companies as you called them.
Surely they cannot be that hard up for money.
If you can find anything that states that any company, be that VM or whoever " Have to " offer such services feel free to come back and I will retract.
I had an experience with VM a few years ago now where they attempted to bill me over £100 for calls that I know that I did not make, calls that were made apparently one after the other, it was rediculous, each call was for literally seconds, as if someone was calling the number then once they got through they were putting the phone down and redialling the number, one after the other, after the other, as I say this ammounted to over £100 worth of calls that we certainly did not make physically.
When I disputed the charges they were eventually, after having to pull nails, written off.
I am now with BT and oddly enough have not had such issues since.
I would never go back to VM for the telephone service even if I had to string two cans together to avoid them.
So sorry, they do not have to associate themselves with such companies, unless as I say you can prove that they do.
Businesses as in the premium call line business, although I probably should have said industry.
VM can't instantly tell which companies are dishonest, they have to at first carry calls to all numbers, then when a company shows itself as dishonest they issue AIT notices, and then block the numbers from being called from VM landlines. That alternative is what I said, they block ALL premium rate numbers unless a company can jump through hoops to show them they are honest. That's not an ideal situation at all.
If you have a way to instantly identify with services are dishonest immediately without them rogue billing customers so they can avoid dealing with them though I'd love to hear it?
Graham Hampton
16-11-2009, 15:34
Hi
I dont usually post on forums like this but I have read this particular thread with much interest and just had to post.
I dont know how phone companies work or the ins and out of legal battles but I just had to post as I have gone over my last few months Virgin Media bills and to my astonishment I have the number mentioned here on my bill back in July and August !!! I dont recall calling that number at all.
09080824087
Im going to call Virgin and see what they say. Ive been charged £21 for it in July and a further £16.84 in August. I also have a couple of other premium rate numbers on my bill as well. I didnt notice this until I read this thread. I have paid my bills by direct debit. Im going to call Virgin and find out whats going on.
What will happen is that the frontline agent will say the call is correct and chargeable, because they don't see anything else.
If you wish to dispute it you can and it will go for investigation.
Hi
I dont usually post on forums like this but I have read this particular thread with much interest and just had to post.
I dont know how phone companies work or the ins and out of legal battles but I just had to post as I have gone over my last few months Virgin Media bills and to my astonishment I have the number mentioned here on my bill back in July and August !!! I dont recall calling that number at all.
09080824087
Im going to call Virgin and see what they say. Ive been charged £21 for it in July and a further £16.84 in August.
Well they disputed the calls and didn't pass your money on. so they should still have it waiting for you to phone up and ask for it back :)
Graham Hampton
19-11-2009, 20:27
Well they disputed the calls and didn't pass your money on. so they should still have it waiting for you to phone up and ask for it back :)
It seems not the case. I have spent the last 2 days on the phone over this matter. I have been told that I made the calls and thats why I have to pay my bill. I mentioned that I had seen a forum which stated that Virgin media eqipment was hacked or "compromised" but I was just fobbed of and basically called a liar.
Virgin Media are plain rude and aggresive. Ive been warned that I must pay for all of my phone calls. I explained that I have already paid those months bills by direct debit but was calling about numbers on my bill that virgin are disputing but I was told that Virgin would never make a statement like that and no equipment has been compromised.
What is going on here then? Have Virgin paid their bills in the trade or not? And if they havnt why are they billing their customers for this? It makes no sense at all??? And why are they so rude when I ask this issue???
Ok Im still battling this out with Virgin. Ive sent in an official complaint letter to Virgin Media explaining that I want part of my phone bills for the last 8 years refunding as I am connected to equipment that has been compromised.
Virgin are still not paying their bills to BT Wholesale and they are still putting in the same excuse month in month out.
Oxygen8 had a meeting with BT wholesale over this and Virgin again said they would not pay as there was an investigation over this.
But the end users are still paying their phone bills as I have paid my home phone bill and Virgin keep telling me there is no issue and no equipment has been compromised and yet I have statements from Virgin saying that equipment is being compromised.
frazzeld
08-01-2010, 22:05
Ok Im still battling this out with Virgin. Ive sent in an official complaint letter to Virgin Media explaining that I want part of my phone bills for the last 8 years refunding as I am connected to equipment that has been compromised.
Virgin are still not paying their bills to BT Wholesale and they are still putting in the same excuse month in month out.
Oxygen8 had a meeting with BT wholesale over this and Virgin again said they would not pay as there was an investigation over this.
But the end users are still paying their phone bills as I have paid my home phone bill and Virgin keep telling me there is no issue and no equipment has been compromised and yet I have statements from Virgin saying that equipment is being compromised. But you have made the calls....so you should pay it!
Ok Im still battling this out with Virgin. Ive sent in an official complaint letter to Virgin Media explaining that I want part of my phone bills for the last 8 years refunding as I am connected to equipment that has been compromised.
Virgin are still not paying their bills to BT Wholesale and they are still putting in the same excuse month in month out.
Oxygen8 had a meeting with BT wholesale over this and Virgin again said they would not pay as there was an investigation over this.
But the end users are still paying their phone bills as I have paid my home phone bill and Virgin keep telling me there is no issue and no equipment has been compromised and yet I have statements from Virgin saying that equipment is being compromised.
OK, so are you (as you appear to be claiming in the quoted post) a VM customer who has been over charged, or are you (as you claim in your first posts in this thread) someone who operates a telecoms company who has not been paid due to VM lodging queries?
Also, have you started legal action against VM? If they are doing what you say they are, that could be considered fraud.
If you have started legal action (which would be justified if they are commiting fraud), then bear in mind you will not be allowed to discuss any aspect of the case in public..
Im waiting again for Virgin to get back to me as a residential customer to explain why I have to pay bills when Im connected to compromised equipment. And yes Im still waiting for thousands of pounds that are owed to my company that Virgin wont pay due to compromised equipment.
Virgin are commiting large scale fraud. Its not just with me its across loads of companies. i have taken this to board level with several companies.
I advise all to not pay their phone bills as Virgin media claim EVERY month that their equipment has been compromised. They dont pay their bills but still INSIST that their customers pay their bills for those very same numbers and services.
That is fraud on the part of Virgin Media.
---------- Post added at 01:47 ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 ----------
I just want a straight answer from Virgin Media.
has Virgin Media equipment been compromised? YES OR NO?
If yes then you need to refund me as a residential customer for every month that you claim your equipment has been compromised.
If no then you need to pay the companies that you owe hundreds of thousands of pounds for every month that you claim you equipment is being compromised.
Which is it to be Virgin?
CAN WE HAVE AN ANSWER PLEASE?
CAN WE HAVE AN ANSWER PLEASE?
That question isn't directed at this forum is it?
As has probably already been stated in the thread, Cable Forum has nothing to do with Virgin Media, it is independantly owned and run.
Some Virgin employees are members here, but what they post are their own thoughts and opinions, they are not official company spokespeople..
Im waiting again for Virgin to get back to me as a residential customer to explain why I have to pay bills when Im connected to compromised equipment. And yes Im still waiting for thousands of pounds that are owed to my company that Virgin wont pay due to compromised equipment.
Virgin are commiting large scale fraud. Its not just with me its across loads of companies. i have taken this to board level with several companies.
I advise all to not pay their phone bills as Virgin media claim EVERY month that their equipment has been compromised. They dont pay their bills but still INSIST that their customers pay their bills for those very same numbers and services.
That is fraud on the part of Virgin Media.
---------- Post added at 01:47 ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 ----------
I just want a straight answer from Virgin Media.
has Virgin Media equipment been compromised? YES OR NO?
If yes then you need to refund me as a residential customer for every month that you claim your equipment has been compromised.
If no then you need to pay the companies that you owe hundreds of thousands of pounds for every month that you claim you equipment is being compromised.
Which is it to be Virgin?
CAN WE HAVE AN ANSWER PLEASE?
You run a phone business which is having problems with Virgin and you want answers as a residential customer.??????:erm:
frazzeld
09-01-2010, 11:11
Targeting phone scams
Telephone scams come in many different forms and can leave victims thousands of pounds out of pocket.
To crackdown on this problem we restrict how we allocate telephone numbers in certain number ranges.
These ranges are 070 personal numbers, 0871/2/3 special service higher rate numbers and 09 premium rate numbers.
Restrictions
The restrictions mean Ofcom will not allocate any of these numbers to companies and individuals that we are assessing or we have found to have previously used telephone numbers to cause serious or repeated harm to consumers.
The names of these companies and individuals appear on one of two lists, which are published on this website.
We also strongly encourage all communication providers to take best use of numbers and consumer protection into account and to refer to these lists when assigning telephone numbers.
Lists
The first is the under assessment list. It includes the names of people and companies that we are assessing to see whether they’ve used phone numbers to cause serious or repeated harm to consumers.
We will not allocate 070, 0871/2/3 or 09 numbers to individuals and companies while they are on the under assessment list.
The second is the number refusal list.
We will not allocate 070, 0871/2/3 or 09 numbers to individuals and companies on this list as, following our assessment, we are satisfied that they have previously used telephone numbers in a way that has caused serious or repeated harm to consumers.
Is your real name Mr Yendle?
How much misery can this cause!
Phone Scam.jpg - 0.05MB (http://www.zshare.net/image/70984488d5fd571b/)
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5904/phonescam.jpg
Honestly, the O/P must really think we're a bunch of morons. I'd suggest not giving any further consideration to this particular thread.
So what about all the residential customers who have paid their phone bills that Virgin is then disputing in the industry. But if those residential customers dispute their bills Virgin wont refund them or hopes they go away. But Virgin doesnt pay BT wholesale for those callls and so pockets the revenue 100% massive increase in profits.
That cant be legal.
---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------
There isnt any phone scam here just Virgin committing the scam. They are billing customers for calls and then disputing those very same calls in the industry. They are refusing to pay their bills in the trade but forcing the customers to pay their bills for those very same calls. They are doing it month after month after month. They say their equipment has been compromised and so increase their profits by not paying their bills in the trade. They are with holding hundreds of thousands of pounds every month.
So what about all the residential customers who have paid their phone bills that Virgin is then disputing in the industry. But if those residential customers dispute their bills Virgin wont refund them or hopes they go away. But Virgin doesnt pay BT wholesale for those callls and so pockets the revenue 100% massive increase in profits.
That cant be legal.
---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------
There isnt any phone scam here just Virgin committing the scam. They are billing customers for calls and then disputing those very same calls in the industry. They are refusing to pay their bills in the trade but forcing the customers to pay their bills for those very same calls. They are doing it month after month after month. They say their equipment has been compromised and so increase their profits by not paying their bills in the trade. They are with holding hundreds of thousands of pounds every month.
You know Adam B, I'm going to say something that is often said here....
Saying something over and over and over.........and over again doesn't make it true.
Move on mate, you're not getting supported here.
CAN WE HAVE AN ANSWER PLEASE?
This forum is independent of VM. Even if it weren't, VM would be unlikely to say any more than they already have to us which was just a statement that what they are doing is legal.
I suggest that if you have proof that VM are committing fraud, you take them to court.
Ok toto I will post an update when I have one. We will see how Virgin handles my complaint to head office.
arcamalpha2004
09-01-2010, 20:21
Ok toto I will post an update when I have one. We will see how Virgin handles my complaint to head office.
Why contact the monkey?
I am sure Watchdog would love to look at your case.
Wild Oscar
09-01-2010, 21:14
So what about all the residential customers who have paid their phone bills that Virgin is then disputing in the industry.
.. but the residential customers have got what they have paid for , have they not?
You can't expect people not to pay their bills on your say so .. that's just daft!
Why contact the monkey?
I am sure Watchdog would love to look at your case.
No, they only deal with serious issues.
This person has made various comments in this posts which bring his real motives into question.
After all, if this happened (and I am venturing no opinion on whether it did or not) then VM have commited massive fraud, and if (as he claimed in the first few posts), the OP had proof, he should have taken it to court.
Do I think he has taken it to court? I don't know, but I suspect if he had he would not be allowed to discuss any aspect of the case here.
Cablefan
13-01-2010, 20:35
No, they only deal with serious issues.
This person has made various comments in this posts which bring his real motives into question.
I think that is matter of personal interpretation to be honest. I have just read this entire, and very interesting thread, and his allegations seem very consistent and straight forward.
If these allegations are true then they should most certainly be exposed. Good luck with this and I hope you have a resolution to your issue.
Do keep us updated.
Hey thanks for that Cablefan
A quick update:
As a residential customer:
I have done everything as a residential customer that Virgin told me to.
I telephoned them several times to ask about numbers on my bill (call recorded)
I have been told that there is no issue with the numbers I ask about even though Virgin are disputing those very same numbers in the trade.
I have been called a liar and told Virgin would never say their equipment has been compromised.
I have taken my complaint to head of cutomer complaints and written to that department expressing my concerns over the fact that Virgin Media repeatedly claim in the industry that their equipment is being compromised. I have asked for an explanation of this and asked for a refund on all my telephone bills over the last 8 years as I am connected to this compromised equipment.
Virgin telephoned me and told me that NO equipment has been compromised. I asked again and said "Has Virgin Media equipment been compromised yes or no" The reply was "NO" I was also told on the phone that it would be very difficult to prove that it had.
I then asked the head of complaints to put this in writing to me.
He has done that. I have a signed letter from Virgin informing me that my account has not been compromised.
Ok then Virgin are insistant that their equipment has not been compromised. I have it in writing and on the phone recorded.
As a business:
My company is still owed tens of thousands of pounds from Oxygen8 communications and verious others. I have again gone back to Oxygen8 and still cannot get paid. Why not? because Virgin claim that the calls are a result of compromised equipment and there is an investigation on going.
Virgin pay your bills to the industry you are hurting us and you are comitting fraud. If virgin media equipment is being compromised then you need to sort it out or stop billing customers for calls and pocketing the 100% revenue for yourself. Stop the lies. Pay what you owe to BT wholesale and stop these excuses. You cant have it both ways. Claiming that your equipment is being compromised in the trade but then telling end users that it is not.
OK Adam, you apparently have a letter from VM stating their position, what are you going to do now?
Can I assume you've set a court date?
moaningmags
18-02-2010, 22:42
You asked them to confirm NO equipment has been compromised, they've confirmed your account hasn't been compromised. How do the two tie together?
Ok I think this video explains the issue clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsKOtb4pm00
Ok I think this video explains the issue clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsKOtb4pm00
No Adam it does not explain the issue. I've asked you several times in this thread when you will be taking VM to court over these allegation and each time you have ignored me, dodged the question or wriggled out of answering.
Your persistant refusal to set a court date (or at least discuss it here) indicates to me VM have no case to answer and you are fully aware of this but are continuing this campaign due to your perceiving it to be unfair.
You have very little support in this thread and with good reason. If the evidence you say you have proves VM are acting illegally (and they have assured me they aren't) then there can be no legitimate reason why you have not set a court date to take action against them.
Should you actually do this then I'm sure a lot more people here will be behind you.
But as it stands it is looking increasingly suspicious as to way you seem unable or unwilling to take it further. Some people here have criticised you for running a premium rate telephone service - I won't do that as you're not doing anything illegal. Some might question the morality of a business like that but from what I can see your company is all above board.
But surely if any normal person had evidence that a large company like VM was 'scamming' its customers then I can see no reason why a court date wouldn't be set unless he or she wasn't telling us the full story.
No Adam it does not explain the issue. <snip> I can see no reason why a court date wouldn't be set unless he or she wasn't telling us the full story.
Which is what I have been saying all along.
:clap:
I think what has been happening is the companies using Virginmedia's services have installed their own equipment which is making phantom calls to earn more revenue and this has been spotted and the payments stopped for the calls in question.
If you do not want people to think that this is what is really happening then set a date in court and let the lawyers fight it out.
Also on that video you posted you show your phone bill with various phone numbers on, possibly friends or colleagues who I believe would be very angry at you posting them on a very public platform such as Youtube.
That is itself makes me wonder how a so called Telecommunications professional can actually still be in business if you are willing to post private numbers online.
Digital Fanatic
20-02-2010, 11:29
I think what has been happening is the companies using Virginmedia's services have installed their own equipment which is making phantom calls to earn more revenue and this has been spotted and the payments stopped for the calls in question.
If you do not want people to think that this is what is really happening then set a date in court and let the lawyers fight it out.
Also on that video you posted you show your phone bill with various phone numbers on, possibly friends or colleagues who I believe would be very angry at you posting them on a very public platform such as Youtube.
That is itself makes me wonder how a so called Telecommunications professional can actually still be in business if you are willing to post private numbers online.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
That is itself makes me wonder how a so called Telecommunications professional can actually still be in business if you are willing to post private numbers online.
Not just that, but as the numbers he's disputing are his own I'm pretty sure that he's well aware that he's called them. So by calling VM to dispute these numbers he's actually attempting to commit fraud. He knows he's called them, and yet he's still calling VM going "I might not have called them!" and trying to claim that because some equipment has been compromised it means he shouldn't have to pay for calls he KNOWS he's made.
I'd love to see this in court, because the only arguments he can make both involve incriminating himself in a crime. Either equipment has been compromised by him and he's artificially inflating traffic (including on his own account) hence VM are with holding revenue and he hasn't actually made those calls on his bill directly, in which case he's commiting mass fraud. Or, it hasn't been compromised, he HAS made the calls himself despite trying to tell VM he hasn't, so he's committing fraud by trying to get a refund on his bills by claiming he hasn't made them (even though in this case VM would also be, it doesn't mean it's ok for him to commit a crime in trying to bring it to light).
Adam, if you have evidence, go to court. I am sure there are a number of solicitors who would love the chance to bring down a company that is "scamming" thousands of people.
The video says exactly what you said here. It does not answer the two questions that I consider most important.
1) Have you reported this to the Police?
2) Why have you not taken them to court? After all, the way you explain it, VM owe you tens of thousands of pounds. People have launched legal action for a fraction of that.
Virgin claim they have acted legally in this. Bitching about it on forums and youtube will not chage their mind. Indeed, accusing them of fraud may attract action from them.
One thing that will change their mind. YOU going to court and the court agreeing they have committed fraud.
I will be taking Oxygen8 to the small claims court as they are the company I have a contract with. Taking Virgin media to court is a more complex matter as I do not have a contract with them as a business. However, I will take Virgin media to court as a residential customer through small claims and claim back 8 years worht of phone bills as I am connected to compromised equipment as I have the statement from Virgin media.
What you guys dont seem to realise is that Virgin is pocketing this revenue and keeping it for themselves. If equipment had been compromised why have myself and everybody else who called thos numbers not been refunded? That £2000 AIT that I showed has been pocketed by Virgin. They have kept the revenue and not passed it on. Like I say if equipment had been compromised then why still take the money from the end user??
The last AIT put in recently was for approx £500 I have the print out from Virgins own switch and yet again they claim comromised equipment but STILL have collected the revenue from the customers.
Why do you not realise that Virgin are stealing this revenue?
If equipment had been compromised why have myself and everybody else who called thos numbers not been refunded?
Because, quite simply, YOU CALLED THOSE NUMBERS.
You are billed by VM for calls that you make. How much those calls then cost VM is irrelevant to this. You make calls, you get billed, regardless if VM then have to pay a 3rd party for the call or not, you made the call and are billed in accordance with your contract with VM.
If VM then pay a 3rd party of not is irrelevant to if you are charged or not, and based solely on the contract VM has with that 3rd party. No doubt part of that contract states that VM can withhold revenue from anyone suspected of artificially inflating traffic. That would be a contract the 3rd party has agreed to, and as such VM can legally refuse to pay them, even for calls that were not due to traffic inflation as they can justify it as a penalty fee.
So basically, you don't have a leg to stand on.
I will be taking Oxygen8 to the small claims court as they are the company I have a contract with. Taking Virgin media to court is a more complex matter as I do not have a contract with them as a business. However, I will take Virgin media to court as a residential customer through small claims and claim back 8 years worht of phone bills as I am connected to compromised equipment as I have the statement from Virgin media.
If you win and I do say If all you would get refunded in all likelihood would be 12 months of charges.
But I also believe if you had a case that you would have been in court before now.
I also find it very hard to comprehend how a so called telecommunications company owner can do something so irresponsible and unprofessional as posting telephone numbers of people on the web, you have breached DPA for every single person in your video and OFCOM should be investigating you regards that breach.
I
What you guys dont seem to realise is that Virgin is pocketing this revenue and keeping it for themselves.
What you don't seem to realise is you started this thread back in september, it's now approaching the end of february and you STILL don't have a court date.
That to me sounds highly suspicious.
Adam B
Artificially Inflating Traffic, get used to that term sir, you're fooling nobody. Calling your own premium rate service number can be seen as such, and if memory serves is against regulations, but I could be wrong and am happy to be proved such.
You can argue that you "may or may not" have made those calls, you can even say you were testing your service from your Virgin Media landline, but at least credit this forums users with a little intelligence.
Also, can you take a company to small claims court for the loss of thousands of pounds as you claim?
Surely you have to go to big boys court for that?
Edit:
Did a bit of digging.
AIT – “artificially inflated traffic”. This occurs when someone may ring their own premium rate telephone service from their place of work or from a stolen or cloned mobile phone. British Telecom watch for such activity very closely and if it is found AIT has occured, British Telecom have the right to not pay you for revenue generated.
Now, the first video you posted clearly showed YOUR Virgin Media account number, and then showed a whole bunch of premium rate numbers. If the person at Virgin Media has reviewed that video, they would clearly see YOUR account number, and then those premium numbers which are clear to read.
Under TUFF (http://www.tuff.co.uk/home.asp) they can request to know who has been assigned those numbers.
I suspect they know much more about this than you claim they are stating, if I were you I'd go lick my wounds, and learn how to use a black felt tip marker on your bills if you are going to post them on Youtube.
Digital Fanatic
20-02-2010, 15:50
Indeed... this is really starting to sound like a smear campaign by the OP... if he's got a case, then sue, if not just let it go....
I am also very concerned about your DPA breach in posting those telephone numbers on Youtube. as Moldova says, I'm sure Ofcom will be interested in that... even if you ever had a case, you've probably blown it just by posting that video.
I wonder if anyone at VM has copied and saved those youtube clips 'just in case'.
Either way Adam, you're losing support fast here. Not sure if that bothers you however you're also losing credability by not taking any action over your allegations.
Just watched the video, the OP needs to learn some basic reading comprehension.
He somehow takes this: "We suspect all are artificially inflating traffic by compromising Virgin Media equipment" to mean that ALL calls to those numbers are the result of compromised equipment. That's one hell of a misrepresentation there, and one that makes his entire straw man collapse.
If I was VM I'd be filing suit against the OP for libel.
Digital Fanatic
20-02-2010, 16:19
The OP has also brought Richard Bransons name in to this... I'm sure his lawyers will also be interested in this video.
Why do you not realise that Virgin are stealing this revenue?
They may or may not be. You claim they are. They claim they are doing nothing illegal. I am not defending VM at all, but the fact that you claim to have all this evidence but are unwilling to test it in a court of law suggests that either you don't have as strong a case as you are claiming, or you are up to something and that was the reason they blocked the payments.
OK, so you contract is with Oxygen8. Fair enough. Why have you not taken them to court, and why have they not taken Virgin to court? You first reported this months ago, and if you are correct, you have been the victim of fraud for *years*. I've worked for companies that threaten legal action for non-payment of bills after 90 days.
Instead of doing the sensible thing and starting action to retrieve your lost money, you seem to be happy just to smear Virgin. That's a good way to end up on the recieving end of legal action.
Ok CCJ for Oxygen8 comming up. I will let you know how I get on.
By the way I only have say approx £20 of calls to those numbers in question on my bill. The rest of revenue is from hundreds of other peoples lines who have been calling the premium rate numbers. Hundreds of different landlines in different towns with different calling codes. How on earth is that AIT??
Have you even issued an AIT A2 to dispute the AIT in regards to these payments?
There's a very clear process involved with AIT notices, why aren't you following it rather than being on here complaining about VM charging you for calls you've made?
By the way I only have say approx £20 of calls to those numbers in question on my bill.
You freely admit to calling your own Premium Rate numbers from your own landline, you will have the floor wiped with yourself.
Then the is the issue of DPA regarding all those phone numbers that I or anyone else now have free access to thanks to your video.
The OP has also brought Richard Bransons name in to this... I'm sure his lawyers will also be interested in this video.
It was not long ago BA, Virgin airlines and some other air line company was under scrutiny to do with air price fixing so Branson would be use to this by now. For some reason Virgin got away with it the others had to pay out millions. In any case if Branson part owns Virgin and the complaint is about Virgin he will be brought into it.
Why don't Virgin just talk to the person and save the court fees.
Why don't Virgin just talk to the person and save the court fees.
Virgin have made their position clear - in an email to me they stated they're doing nothing illegal. If Adam is making accusations against them then he should approach them, VM are under no legal or moral obligation to approach him.
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