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lianfear
08-04-2009, 11:41
I play World of Warcraft and people using Virginmedia have had major issues today with disconnects (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8638434272&sid=1)

I ran a pathping and it shows a problem at the interface between virginmedia and telia. Any ideas what is going?

Tracing route to 80-239-149-108.customer.teliacarrier.com [80.239.149.108]

over a maximum of 30 hops:

3 pete-cam-1a-ge92.network.virginmedia.net [80.3.130.1]

4 pete-t3core-1a-ge-011-0.network.virginmedia.net [195.182.179.221]

5 nth-bb-a-so-200-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.43.162.245]

6 pop-bb-b-as4-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.64.18]

7 pop-bb-a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.172.14]

8 195.50.91.69

9 ae-12-51.car2.London1.Level3.net [4.69.139.67]

10 telia-level3-ge.London1.Level3.net [4.68.111.182]

11 ldn-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.249.77]

12 prs-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.254.209]

13 ffm-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.251.211]

14 ffm-b4-link.telia.net [80.91.249.237]

15 * * *

Computing statistics for 375 seconds...

Source to Here This Node/Link

Hop RTT Lost/Sent = Pct Lost/Sent = Pct Address

4 12ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% pete-t3core1a-ge011-0.network.virginmedia.net [195.182.179.221] 0/ 100 = 0% |

5 17ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% nth-bbaso00-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.43.162.245]

0/ 100 = 0% |

6 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% pop-bbb-as4-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.64.18]

0/ 100 = 0% |

7 19ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% pop-bb-a-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.172.14]

0/ 100 = 0% |

8 23ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 195.50.91.69

0/ 100 = 0% |

9 35ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-12-51.car2.London1.Level3.net [4.69.139.67]

7/ 100 = 7% |

10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 93/ 100 = 93% telia-level3-ge.London1.Level3.net [4.68.111.182]

0/ 100 = 0% |

11 27ms 9/ 100 = 9% 2/ 100 = 2% ldn-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.249.77]

0/ 100 = 0% |

12 31ms 8/ 100 = 8% 1/ 100 = 1% prs-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.254.209]

0/ 100 = 0% |

13 41ms 7/ 100 = 7% 0/ 100 = 0% ffm-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.251.211]

0/ 100 = 0% |

14 47ms 7/ 100 = 7% 0/ 100 = 0% ffm-b4-link.telia.net [80.91.249.237]

93/ 100 = 93% |

15 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 121421900318 [0.0.0.0]



Trace complete.

dev
08-04-2009, 11:53
looks to me to be between 2 level3 routers which would probably be out of VM's control

philipp
08-04-2009, 11:54
Yes virgin to telia seems broken. My adsl is fine though with it!

Peter_
08-04-2009, 12:03
This is a known issue and if you Google telia and world of warcraft issues you will find many articles on the internet regards Telia and the is also this Cableforum thread http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33610339-the-great-world-warcraft-problem-virgin.html

philipp
08-04-2009, 12:14
No Moldova. Its a new issue. The link between telia and virgin is broken. Was fine last night. even telia dns's doesnt resolve.

By the way its not level 3.. Its between virgin and telia. Who to blame who knows!

Peter_
08-04-2009, 12:18
No Moldova. Its a new issue. The link between telia and virgin is broken. Was fine last night. even telia dns's doesnt resolve.
The has been many ongoing issues with Telia and they have been working on this for a long time as occasionally we get call from WOW players and we have to refer them to Telia or advise them to try and re route through different servers.

This may be a new issue now but the have been issues for over 2 years as that Cableforum link shows.

Stuart
08-04-2009, 12:21
No Moldova. Its a new issue. The link between telia and virgin is broken. Was fine last night. even telia dns's doesnt resolve.

By the way its not level 3.. Its between virgin and telia. Who to blame who knows!


It's between Virgin and Telia, but who is running the link between Virgin and Telia? Level 3.. So therefore it probably is their problem.

Peter_
08-04-2009, 12:23
It's between Virgin and Telia, but who is running the link between Virgin and Telia? Level 3.. So therefore it probably is their problem.
As far as we have been told it is on Telias end and they are working on a fix for it.

philipp
08-04-2009, 12:27
It's between Virgin and Telia, but who is running the link between Virgin and Telia? Level 3.. So therefore it probably is their problem.

actually no... the route for world of warcraft goes through level 3 but trace www.telia.se, for example, (if u get it to resolve use opendns.) You will find no level 3 in the traceroute :)

Stuart
08-04-2009, 12:45
actually no... the route for world of warcraft goes through level 3 but trace www.telia.se, for example, (if u get it to resolve use opendns.) You will find no level 3 in the traceroute :)

Look at the traceroutes he posted..


10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 93/ 100 = 93% telia-level3-ge.London1.Level3.net [4.68.111.182]


telia-level3-ge.London1.Level3.net is registering 100% packet loss. Traceroutes to Telia's website are irrelevant as they may or may not go via the same route. They almost certainly won't if they are hosted in a different country.

philipp
08-04-2009, 13:19
Stuart, you didnt understand what I was saying.. Its not just world of warcraft... Its generally everything to do with telia outside this country is broken :)

Peter_
08-04-2009, 13:22
Stuart, you didnt understand what I was saying.. Its not just world of warcraft... Its generally everything to do with telia outside this country is broken :)
It is a Swedish domain so you may have to email them for any information.

Ignitionnet
08-04-2009, 13:24
Level 3 shouldn't be involved in the link at all:

Telia Peering Matrix:

import: from AS5089 action pref=50; accept AS-NTLI
export: to AS5089 announce ANY

VM Peering Matrix:

import: from AS1299 action pref=100; accept AS-TELIANET AND NOT {0.0.0.0/0}
export: to AS1299 announce AS-NTLI

Something interesting going on.

lianfear
08-04-2009, 14:40
Seems some debate as to what is going on then. VM blame Telia, Blizzard and Telia blame VM, probably a bit of both.

peteh
08-04-2009, 15:00
I'd think more of the side that put their hands up and said something was wrong than the one chucking blame at the other

The issue you have is everybody checking the technical forums on the wow-europe site is being told they need to take this up with their internet provider...

Considering the number of players that actually use the forum is small in proportion to the actual size of the userbase, thats a suprising amount of uk based players on VM complaining in there

I've played for some time, theres a long history of problems for UK based players and Telia, particularly those of us connecting through vm/ntl and the like

Hope its just another of those Telia things, if the stance of denial on the part of VM turns out that they were actually incorrect and threw the blame elsewhere to take heat off them will be v disapointed

I'd accept a fault with the service if it were acknowledged by someone and I knew it was being looked into, as a long standing customer of both services being misled/pointed in other directions disgusts me

Ignitionnet
08-04-2009, 15:51
I have checked - Telia are not receiving routes from Virgin Media, it looks as though Virgin are routing traffic to Telia via Level3. Virgin have been having some backbone issues, there were some yesterday and day before too.

In any event:


Sorry for the delay, we're having some technical issues today so have been
unable to reply sooner. This issue has been raised and our network
engineers are working on this now, the reference for this issue is
F000941486, we're sorry for the inconvenience caused.


-- Kind Regards ********* Virgin Media Technical Support

SOSAGES
08-04-2009, 17:36
i have to wait before getting on my cape and waving my wand :(

Ignitionnet
09-04-2009, 00:53
There are 2 issues here.

1) Virgin Media are either having some peering issues causing other peers to depeer them, peering is broken, or have peering capacity issues and are traffic engineering to use transit, in this case Level3.
2) The Level 3 route to Telia that's being used is congested. It's probably not appreciating the entire VM WoW userbase being pushed through that link along with whatever else was there before.

I've spoken with another couple of ISPs, both of whom report that issues with their VM peering were so bad that they have actually taken it down and are paying to route traffic to VM - to keep their customers happy.

So VM will no doubt blame Telia and whomever else however while the issues are a problem between Telia and Level 3 the root cause is that the peering that Telia and VM are supposed to have either isn't working or was taken down and if Telia did take it down they are far from alone.

VM need to slap the IP people and get them to sort out the transit and peering properly, having other ISPs depeer an over 3 million customer ISP over peering problems is silly.

EDIT: The peering is now back in place:

8 149 ms 11 ms 18 ms telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.
185.74]
9 97 ms 99 ms 14 ms ldn-b2-link.telia.net [213.248.100.97]
10 15 ms 9 ms 11 ms ldn-bb2-link.telia.net [80.91.250.229]
11 20 ms 27 ms 21 ms prs-bb2-pos6-0-0.telia.net [213.248.65.114]

2 ldn-bb2-pos7-0-0.telia.net (213.248.65.113) 7.729 ms 7.752 ms ldn-bb1-link.telia.net (80.91.254.208) 7.686 ms
3 ldn-b2-link.telia.net (80.91.250.226) 7.727 ms 7.755 ms 7.690 ms
4 * * *
5 bre-bb-b-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.185.73) [AS 5089] 10.138 ms 10.124 ms 10.579 ms
6 bre-bb-a-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net (213.105.174.225) [AS 5089] 10.360 ms 10.275 ms 10.329 ms
MPLS Label=361664 CoS=0 TTL=1 S=1

Kymmy
09-04-2009, 09:38
I've removed the names from the quote in post #16 as the newsgroups are semi-private to VM customers only

Ignitionnet
09-04-2009, 11:01
I've removed the names from the quote in post #16 as the newsgroups are semi-private to VM customers only

The names of the tech support agents are not real names they are pseudonyms which is why I paste them all the time. :)

Peter_
09-04-2009, 11:25
The names of the tech support agents are not real names they are pseudonyms which is why I paste them all the time. :)
Are they names that you actually make up when you post Newsgroup replies, because when agents answer KANA email queries they have to use their real names as it is part of the system sign on process and is then used as the signature on the bottom of the email reply.

Ignitionnet
09-04-2009, 13:29
Are they names that you actually make up when you post Newsgroup replies, because when agents answer KANA email queries they have to use their real names as it is part of the system sign on process and is then used as the signature on the bottom of the email reply.

AFAIK They are just whatever they decide to add to their signatures, I've seen one tech support guy accidentally use anothers' signature so it's not related to any kind of secure login.

moaningmags
09-04-2009, 15:11
The names of the tech support agents are not real names they are pseudonyms which is why I paste them all the time. :)

Not all of them are pseudonyms.

Kymmy
09-04-2009, 15:54
Either way we ask people not to publish names without express permission.. As this matter is off-topic and concerning a moderator decision can we please get back on topic :)

Toto
09-04-2009, 17:47
The has been many ongoing issues with Telia and they have been working on this for a long time as occasionally we get call from WOW players and we have to refer them to Telia or advise them to try and re route through different servers.

This may be a new issue now but the have been issues for over 2 years as that Cableforum link shows.

Curious?

How would one advise a VM customer to tr-route through a different server, sounds like a fob-off to me

Peter_
09-04-2009, 17:50
Curious?

How would one advise a VM customer to tr-route through a different server, sounds like a fob-off to me
Once it is outside the Virgin network then it is between you and that 3rd party service provider which in this case is Telia, it is not being fobbed off but passing the onus to them.

Milambar
09-04-2009, 17:51
It is a fob-off. Its a "get off my phone" kind of fob off. Short of editing your own routing table (and, lets face it, how many casual players know how to use the route command), its impossible to alter your routing. Only an ISP can.

No, I disagree. My contract is with Virgin Media, not Telia. That means in my opinion, the onus is on Virgin Media to ensure that my connection is routed to its destination as efficiently as possible. Virgin Media in turn has peering agreements with other providers, to ensure this happens. If Telia depeers virgin media, or vice-versa, thats VM's problem, not mine.

Toto
09-04-2009, 17:54
Once it is outside the Virgin network then it is between you and that 3rd party service provider which in this case is Telia, it is not being fobbed off but passing the onus to them.

No, you stated that the customer should try and re-route through another server, when you and I, and most WOW players know that it isn't possible unless they have an alternative Internet connection they can fall back on.

Perhaps your choice of words in that post was not the best? But telling the customer to try and re-route is very misleading.

Peter_
09-04-2009, 17:59
No, you stated that the customer should try and re-route through another server, when you and I, and most WOW players know that it isn't possible unless they have an alternative Internet connection they can fall back on.

Perhaps your choice of words in that post was not the best? But telling the customer to try and re-route is very misleading.
All I know is that the has been long term routing issues with Telia and that once it is outside the Virgin network then it is no longer a Virgin issue.

Is the no way that WOW can be rerouted via another server by using another link, I do not play WOW so just asking.

Toto
09-04-2009, 18:03
All I know is that the has been long term routing issues with Telia and that once it is outside the Virgin network then it is no longer a Virgin issue.

Is the no way that WOW can be rerouted via another server by using another link, I do not play WOW so just asking.

No, and there is the problem, not understanding how WOW works means that poor advice can be given, causing further frustration to the customer.

I agree, once outside the VM network, there's little that can be done, and in my opinion that is where the conversation should end.

That said, I have just connected to WOW without any problems, and the usual low latency I get on my VM connection.

Milambar
09-04-2009, 18:03
Absolutly none.

And yes it is a virgin media issue. If the route is having problems, then virgin media should alter their routing tables, to eliminate the bad link.

Consumer law, the contract is with the seller, not manufactuerer. If goods go faulty, its up to the seller to make good any repairs, or replace the goods.

I would assume the same applies to a faulty internet connection. As VM are the seller, its up to the VM to ensure its either fixed, or replaced. That would mean VM negotiating with telia (not the customer), or altering the routing tables to eliminate telia until its fixed.

Toto
09-04-2009, 18:12
Absolutly none.

And yes it is a virgin media issue. If the route is having problems, then virgin media should alter their routing tables, to eliminate the bad link.

Consumer law, the contract is with the seller, not manufactuerer. If goods go faulty, its up to the seller to make good any repairs, or replace the goods.

I would assume the same applies to a faulty internet connection. As VM are the seller, its up to the VM to ensure its either fixed, or replaced. That would mean VM negotiating with telia (not the customer), or altering the routing tables to eliminate telia until its fixed.

Consumer Law?

How is Virgin's routing the full issue here when I have never had a problem connecting to WOW in over.............oh I don't know since the launch of the Burning Crusade expansion? That was roughly two years ago?

Milambar
09-04-2009, 18:19
Simple, if a route through Telia is broken, you can't phone telia and say "please rerote me", you won't even get past their secretary. They don't deal with end-users. Only the people who buy the peering off them. Which is Virgin Media in this case.

Therefore VM shouldn't "wash their hands" of the issue, but either get Telia to fix it, I'd assume they have an SLA contract with them of some sort, or if they can't fix it within a reasonable timeframe, then VM should alter their routing. Thats the point I was trying to make.

Peter_
09-04-2009, 18:19
Is Telia the first link from the Virgin network if not then nothing to do with Virgin.

Milambar
09-04-2009, 18:24
The problem might not be, but the solution is, since the users can't exactly call up a tier 1 provider and ask for it to be fixed. The solution would be for an ISP to call them, or at least route them out of the equation till its fixed.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Toto
09-04-2009, 18:29
Is Telia the first link from the Virgin network if not then nothing to do with Virgin.

Uhmm...on my connection right now it appears to be.

3.162.109]
6 15 ms 15 ms 19 ms bre-bb-a-so-100-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.25
3.185.197]
7 22 ms 17 ms 15 ms bre-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
174.226]
8 15 ms 15 ms 16 ms telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.
185.74]
9 15 ms 16 ms 16 ms ldn-b2-link.telia.net [213.248.100.97]
10 19 ms 16 ms 21 ms ldn-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.250.225]
11 21 ms 25 ms 24 ms prs-bb1-link.telia.net [213.248.64.9]
12 34 ms 33 ms 35 ms ffm-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.252.230]
13 32 ms 31 ms 31 ms ffm-b4-link.telia.net [80.91.249.237]
14 * * * Request timed out.

---------- Post added at 17:29 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------

The problem might not be, but the solution is, since the users can't exactly call up a tier 1 provider and ask for it to be fixed. The solution would be for an ISP to call them, or at least route them out of the equation till its fixed.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

You're right, but if VM are having issues with Telia that they can't resolve their end, then it becomes Blizzards problem, and as you pay £9 per month to Blizzard, they should compensate if their backbone provider can't sort the problem out within the agreed SLA.

Peter_
09-04-2009, 18:37
Uhmm...on my connection right now it appears to be.

3.162.109]
6 15 ms 15 ms 19 ms bre-bb-a-so-100-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.25
3.185.197]
7 22 ms 17 ms 15 ms bre-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
174.226]
8 15 ms 15 ms 16 ms telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.
185.74]
9 15 ms 16 ms 16 ms ldn-b2-link.telia.net [213.248.100.97]
10 19 ms 16 ms 21 ms ldn-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.250.225]
11 21 ms 25 ms 24 ms prs-bb1-link.telia.net [213.248.64.9]
12 34 ms 33 ms 35 ms ffm-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.252.230]
13 32 ms 31 ms 31 ms ffm-b4-link.telia.net [80.91.249.237]
14 * * * Request timed out.

---------- Post added at 17:29 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------



You're right, but if VM are having issues with Telia that they can't resolve their end, then it becomes Blizzards problem, and as you pay £9 per month to Blizzard, they should compensate if their backbone provider can't sort the problem out within the agreed SLA.
Give them a call then and good luck.:)

Toto
09-04-2009, 18:41
Give them a call then and good luck.:)

Don't need to, my connection is fine....the final time outs are the servers themselves which don't respond to the pings.

I would only contact VM if I knew the problem is their end, which in my case isn't.

Peter_
09-04-2009, 18:43
Don't need to, my connection is fine....the final time outs are the servers themselves which don't respond to the pings.

I would only contact VM if I knew the problem is their end, which in my case isn't.
I see yours times out after more hops.

Toto
09-04-2009, 19:30
I see yours times out after more hops.
Nah, thats normal.....I'm getting about 45ms latency with an FPS capped at 60 fps :)

Ignitionnet
09-04-2009, 22:22
Is Telia the first link from the Virgin network if not then nothing to do with Virgin.

The issue was actually, for some reason Virgin weren't using the peering they have with Telia but were instead using Level3 transit and were saturating a link between Level3 and Telia.

As soon as the peering was back up the problem went away. A number of ISPs have dropped their peering with VM in the past couple of months due to issues with VM's network and VM moving traffic around in weird and wonderful ways.

ntl were never the greatest with transit and peering, now they are in charge of the combined network's peering that appears to carry on.