View Full Version : Rep deceived me into a new 12 month contract : what to do?
Hi,
I've been a long time customer of VM, orginally on the 3 for £30, but with the squabble over sky channels, I went down to just 2MB BB alone @ £10/month with ebill, with TV from Sky and phone from BT.
About 6 months ago, I was about to leave VM and go to an ADSL provider, mainly as I had purchased a notebook and ADSL providers offered me the same BB speed as I was getting with VM for less price with a free wireless router.
I got a call from retentions who offered me a free wireless router, and I stayed at £10 for the 2MB BB. Now my bill for 2MB BB has gone up to £18/month as my previous "deal" has ended. I decided to cancel as I had a number of cheaper options namely:
1) O2 8meg @7.50/month
2) Orange 2mb @ FREE with a mobile contract
3) TalkTalk 8meg + Phone line @14.99/month
I called up to be told that I would have to stay for 12 months from the date I received my "FREE" router @ £18/month (soon to be £20/month) or pay £40 pounds for the router. :(
I had not been informed by the guy from retentions at the time the FREE router was offered to me that I would be in a new contract or would have to pay money for the router if I left earlier. If he had informed me, I would have rather left VM and if I had stayed I would have bought a decent router for less than the £40 that virgin want for their WGR614v6.
I am really unhappy that this is the way I have been deceived by VM retention reps. What can I do?
chickendippers
03-04-2009, 19:20
FWIW I would instantly discredit Orange as they've just come bottom of uSwitch's Broadband Customer Satisfaction Awards (http://www.uswitch.com/broadband/customer-satisfaction/)
I had Orange...originaly when its was Freeserve...then it was Wanadoo...now its orange and it was never reliable on & off etc!
O2 has some great reviews.
There should be somthing that you have to sign before a new contract is added.
if they alter the contract, you have the right to cancle... they changed the price, you can cancle..
FWIW I would instantly discredit Orange as they've just come bottom of uSwitch's Broadband Customer Satisfaction Awards (http://www.uswitch.com/broadband/customer-satisfaction/)
I've done the research from when I was going to leave VM 6 months ago and know that Orange is not the best, I'd probably go with O2 and as I only live 500m from the exchange so am sure I would get a good speed as neighbours get great speeds with BT. I am a low user TBH, and don't need anything more that 2MB, I really don't need the 10MB upgrade that VM are going to give me and rather not pay the £20 when there are better cheaper alternatives.
But that is another issue. My main annoyance to put it mildly is with the VM rentention rep, and him deceiving me into another 12 months contract!:mad:
---------- Post added at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------
if they alter the contract, you have the right to cancle... they changed the price, you can cancle..
I can leave but have to pay for their router! If they had told me this, I wouldn't have stayed with VM, and if I had I'd have bought my own wireless router and a decent one, not the overheating, connection dropping tat that is the WGR614v6....
send router back to them, say your not using there service, the router isnt required.. they can try re-sell it, but i doubt it.. lol... an just buy one, my one i brought a good 3-4 yrs ago... cost me 75£ i talked 5£ off because it was my birthday... lol
send router back to them, say your not using there service, the router isnt required.. they can try re-sell it, but i doubt it.. lol... an just buy one, my one i brought a good 3-4 yrs ago... cost me 75£ i talked 5£ off because it was my birthday... lol
They won't allow me to return it, I asked them about that too...
frogstamper
04-04-2009, 01:42
Basically I believe your best bet is to keep plugging away at them, from what you have told us ie paying £10pm for 2mb BB you have obviously been decieved.
I'd tell them, in a calm respectful manner, that I have not got what I was promised ie a £10 monthly bill so therefore I want to cancel, that is of course unless you [VM] keep their intial side of the agreement.
It may take a few phone calls but in my opinion you have right on your side, good luck.;)
send a complaint via there web form your get a nice english chappy phone you :)
As you've got Sky TV, you might want to check out what Sky can offer.
Never had a speed/technical problem with orange, used to get 7.5Mb sync with about 6.8Mb speedtest all day every day.
BUT (and there's always a but) thier FUP is 40Gb a month and they do enforce it with 512/128 speed limits if you go over that figure.........
Never had a speed/technical problem with orange, used to get 7.5Mb sync with about 6.8Mb speedtest all day every day.
BUT (and there's always a but) thier FUP is 40Gb a month and they do enforce it with 512/128 speed limits if you go over that figure.........
But its free with a monthly contact no..?
Ignitionnet
04-04-2009, 14:07
Invent a fault then when you get an engineer round hold him ransom until they release you from the contract.
I think I'll put the voice recording of him giving me the free router on here, maybe someone will recognise the voice. To add insult to injury, he said he would give me a £10 discount to buy the USB Wifi dongle and then preceded to send me the USB dongle and charged me £20 for it! :mad:
As promised you can listen to the file by clicking on the file below. You will notice he does not mention anything about having to stay with Virgin for 12 months or anything of the sort or having to pay money back if I leave within 12 months! Why does Virgin not tackle these rogue retentions personnel?
This was recorded using my sony phone and will play with media player classic. The date and time stamp is 1 october 08, 15.25 hours.
http://www.mediafire.com/?4480tj4tnx3
moaningmags
19-04-2009, 19:22
09 or 08??
Why don't you change it to mp3 or wmv. A lot of people won't be botherd with an amr file.
moaningmags
19-04-2009, 19:33
Why don't you change it to mp3 or wmv. A lot of people won't be botherd with an amr file.
That's why I didn't listen.
Turkey Machine
19-04-2009, 19:42
That's why I didn't listen.
Go find VLC and put those worries away. ;)
moaningmags
19-04-2009, 19:56
I have VLC, it's my preferred choice of player. I just couldn't be bothered to download the file and a bit wary of doing so.
I've converted it into mp3 - it is attached below
NO NEED TO DOWNLOAD NOW [CLICK the pay button in the website] >
[Mod Edit (Rob M): Link Removed]
moaningmags
19-04-2009, 20:14
Seems to me the first half of the conversation is missing.
I've converted it into mp3 - it is attached below
First off i have just received a warning via my anti virus software about a suspicious file on that site Popped up as soon as i tried to down load. the ip links to http://siteadvisor.se/sites/193.33.61.224/postid/?p=1279010 May i suggest that the mods remove the link
[QUOTE=moaningmags;34778894]Seems to me the first half of the conversation is missing.
Sounds like it to me as well.
yeah, only a bit is missing as I was asleep and didn't know who was calling, he just confirmed my account name and details, I then asked him to wait for a few seconds to turn on the voice recording. so only my account info is missing and I got him to repeat what he was offering ...
yeah, only a bit is missing as I was asleep and didn't know who was calling, he just confirmed my account name and details, I then asked him to wait for a few seconds to turn on the voice recording. so only my account info is missing and I got him to repeat what he was offering ...
Did you
A Tell him you were recording the conversation
B Get his permission to upload the resulting recording to the Internet.
Raistlin
19-04-2009, 20:57
Whilst the files themselves seem ok, given that at least one person is getting warnings from the links I've removed them from the post above as a precaution.
In the past I've personally had issues with ZShare and MediaFire, although I think it's more likely the advertising that they permit (or the files than have been uploaded) than an issue with the site itself.
Whilst the files themselves seem ok, given that at least one person is getting warnings from the links I've removed them from the post above as a precaution.
In the past I've personally had issues with ZShare and MediaFire, although I think it's more likely the advertising that they permit (or the files than have been uploaded) than an issue with the site itself.
Thanks Rob i am now running tests on my system to make sure i was not infected because if i am i only have one person to blame :mad:
Did you
A Tell him you were recording the conversation
B Get his permission to upload the resulting recording to the Internet.
a) Calls are recorded by Virgin, therefore there is the reciprocal right for me to record calls..
b) If I could find this liar, I give him a punch in the nose, so no, I don't know who he is, but I have given the time and date information so maybe someone from virgin can track him down. This is the second time I have been lied to by a Virgin/Telewest rep. The fist time it was the guy that signed me up, he was offering me a really good deal, but it turned out be be lies which cost me £90.
Uploaded to another site
http://www.turboupload.com/rq5uawdvclaw/Virgin_wireless.mp3.html
---------- Post added at 21:09 ---------- Previous post was at 21:08 ----------
Thanks Rob i am now running tests on my system to make sure i was not infected because if i am i only have one person to blame :mad:
sorry mate, i just googled to upload the mp3 and used the first site that came up. Try ZoneAlarm and Firefox - work well for me!
a)
sorry mate, i just googled to upload the mp3 and used the first site that came up. Try ZoneAlarm and Firefox - work well for me!
As did my anti virus work for me. however i should be able to click on a link that a user has posted without running the risk of getting infected. Might i suggest you check your links in future with the same gusto as you are posting recording on people you have not had permission from to allow you to do so.
---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------
a) Calls are recorded by Virgin, therefore there is the reciprocal right for me to record calls..
However they do not then post those calls on the Internet against your wishes
Personally i don't think you have the legal right to be posting that call on the internet. Nowhere in that call do we hear you ask or tell the person on the other end that you are recording the call or that you are then going to upload that call to the internet.
a) Calls are recorded by Virgin, therefore there is the reciprocal right for me to record calls..
All calls are not recorded by Virginmedia and never have been as they would take up to much space.
Some calls are recorded for Quality and Training purposes and they are just that, the agent gets them played back to them by the Quality team and it is usually just 2 calls per month per agent, and after playback they are usually deleted.
broadbandking
19-04-2009, 23:22
Ain't seen a quality team for over a year, hardly any calls are recorded, if retentions send you a free router I do think it doesnt hold you down to a contract I can check for you plus you cheeky sod you wanted two wireless USB sticks for £10?
vm haven't a leg to stand on with that
there lieing just tell you are canceling and if they continue to bill you or faulsly claim that your in a 12 mouth contract or dare to damage your credit
that you will sue them in the county court
there wipe the floor with em at a county court
TheDaddy
20-04-2009, 06:27
Did you
A Tell him you were recording the conversation
B Get his permission to upload the resulting recording to the Internet.
You're right I believe you are legally obliged to inform the person that you're recording the call, it should be covered by RIPA, the Telecommunications part of the Data Protection Act and probably even the Human Rights Act
vm haven't a leg to stand on with that
there lieing just tell you are canceling and if they continue to bill you or faulsly claim that your in a 12 mouth contract or dare to damage your credit
that you will sue them in the county court
there wipe the floor with em at a county court
Most times you wont have to go to court, recordings stop proceedings rather than encourage them, rather than VM standing by their employee all the way to court they'll be able to hear for themselves any lies or non fulfillment of commitments.
cook1984
20-04-2009, 14:48
The best thing to do is tell them you are finishing, give them a months notice as required. Once the last Direct Debit has been taken, cancel it. If VM ask, return the router and modem to them. Remember to unplug the modem and do not use the internet connection after you have stopped paying for it.
You did not agree to a new 12 month contract. In order to agree to a contract, even a verbal one, you have to be told that one exists. Without any evidence of agreement to a verbal contract or any written contract, they cannot force you to stay with them.
Eventually they will probably send you a paper bill, with £5 added for non-direct debit payment. At that point call them and explain that you cancelled your broadband and no longer have it. Chances are they will just sort things out there and then, but if not you just have to be persistent. In the end, they can't force you to pay for something you did not agree to.
Don't waste more than one phone call on it, after that write them a letter explaining the situation. Every time you receive something, just send them the same letter with the current date on it. Eventually they will call you.
Thomas.Fisk
20-04-2009, 15:00
Just to establish; inside the UK only one side of a telephone call needs to know it's being recorded. Wiretapping is illegal, recording your own calls is perfectly fine.
I don't know about publishing the recording online, but to be on the safe side, I'd take it down. If the case were (Though incredibly unlikely) get to the small claims court, it would basically lay things to rest.
It's only legal if for personal use and not being put into public domain.
It's only legal if for personal use and not being put into public domain.
That's what i was thinking as well. Does that mean anyone linking to it are breaking the rules as well IE forums ?
TheDaddy
20-04-2009, 17:17
It's only legal if for personal use and not being put into public domain.
Dont think so
With regard to recording a telephone conversation, section 7.3 (quoted in full later) states that the Licensee shall make every reasonable effort to inform all parties before recording a call
http://www.seg.co.uk/telecomm/record.htm
All calls are not recorded by Virginmedia and never have been as they would take up to much space.
I didn't say VM record ALL calls, I said VM record calls. I am sure you guys can find out who this person is, after all he will have authorised my wireless router so should have notes on my account with his identity.
Ain't seen a quality team for over a year, hardly any calls are recorded, if retentions send you a free router I do think it doesnt hold you down to a contract I can check for you plus you cheeky sod you wanted two wireless USB sticks for £10?
No I just asked for ONE USB wifi stick for my desktop PC which I would otherwise not be able to use. Rep said he would knock 10 quid off, infact he charged me 20 quid and sent me the USB stick, so I got rammed doubly! I can send you my account number and name if you can sort this out, although I have just seen my online bill and the 40 quid has been added on it saying something like "BB retention correction".
vm haven't a leg to stand on with that
there lieing just tell you are canceling and if they continue to bill you or faulsly claim that your in a 12 mouth contract or dare to damage your credit
that you will sue them in the county court
there wipe the floor with em at a county court
I could give them a complete *******ing, but obviously don't want to go down that route, VM have solicitors on the payroll so won't mind putting one of them to use, I don't have the time, but if needed will give them a kick in the knackers if they don't get off my case.
You're right I believe you are legally obliged to inform the person that you're recording the call, it should be covered by RIPA, the Telecommunications part of the Data Protection Act and probably even the Human Rights Act
Forget his Human Rights and anything else! Is it not important that reps tell customers the truth? What about the rights of customers that have been decieved and lied to by reps from various companies not just VM so that they can their hands on some commission. Without this recording, I would have been shafted. VM would have said I agreed to a 12 month contract and I would have no defence whatsoever and this rep would have got away with it, with his retention commission.
Have you called in and requested that a complaint is raised against that agent as you have the time and date.
broadbandking
20-04-2009, 22:56
If retentions send you a router free they can't charge you for it out the blue but will check on the disconnection thing for you 2morrow when I am in.
Just to establish; inside the UK only one side of a telephone call needs to know it's being recorded. Wiretapping is illegal, recording your own calls is perfectly fine.
I don't know about publishing the recording online, but to be on the safe side, I'd take it down. If the case were (Though incredibly unlikely) get to the small claims court, it would basically lay things to rest.
I've asked the site to take it down, if/when they will, I don't know.
Have you called in and requested that a complaint is raised against that agent as you have the time and date.
I was hoping to stay with VM as although the service is pricey, it works, and I'm the sort that is happy not to tinker with things if they work. I told the person that I gave disconnection notice to that I dispute the charge of 40 pounds for my FREE router, but she didn't seem to want to listen to that and said she would be putting it on. I was planning on sorting it out after the disconnection ....
If retentions send you a router free they can't charge you for it out the blue but will check on the disconnection thing for you 2morrow when I am in.
thanks
I've asked the site to take it down, if/when they will, I don't know.
I was hoping to stay with VM as although the service is pricey, it works, and I'm the sort that is happy not to tinker with things if they work. I told the person that I gave disconnection notice to that I dispute the charge of 40 pounds for my FREE router, but she didn't seem to want to listen to that and said she would be putting it on. I was planning on sorting it out after the disconnection ....
thanks
Ring up tomorrow and put the complaint on the account not after any disconnection.
broadbandking
21-04-2009, 08:17
Just checked for you and if customer relations send you a free router and you cancel before 12 months is up then you will be charged for the router.
Sorry mate btw this is a process so most people you speak to will advise you of this, they can only add the charge if you have raised a disconnection request.
Stewie_Griffin
21-04-2009, 09:05
Might have this wrong but if it was a new 12month contract and you cancelled you would be charged the rest of the contract period too, not just the router. I do know for certain that if you receive a free router and leave within the first 12 months you will be charged for the equipment. Theres no way around that.
broadbandking
21-04-2009, 10:56
Its not a contract on the service just on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router
I spoke to CS today and got told that I have to pay the charge, he spoke to retentions too he claimed to confirm. I told him I'd like the complaint logged on the system. He looked at the past entries and apparently the person to whom I gave my disconnection notice has written in the notes that "I'd be happy to pay the £40 charge". I told him I would be happy to return the router, but no I can't do that either. You couldn't make this stuff up!
Might have this wrong but if it was a new 12month contract and you cancelled you would be charged the rest of the contract period too, not just the router. I do know for certain that if you receive a free router and leave within the first 12 months you will be charged for the equipment. Theres no way around that.
No, I have been out of a contract for 2 years, I could understand it if I was in a contract and I wanted to leave early but that is not the case. I was about to leave for ADSL land and for a cheaper offer than what I was payng VM. But I decided to stay as I didn't want to tinker about with my network and connection. I was offered the router FREE by retentions as an incentive to stay, but now 7 months on the price has shot up to £20/month for 2MB which I don't need. Unwittingly I have been deceived and now have to pay for the router unless I want to stay with virgin for 12 months from the date I received the router. The rep did not tell me at anytime that I would have to stay for a minimum of 12 months if I took the router. As I was out of contract for 2 years, I would have been better off going to O2, saving 2.50 a month, getting 8meg instead of 2meg, no STM, free wireless O2 router. Instead I trusted this VM lying rep :mad:
Just checked for you and if customer relations send you a free router and you cancel before 12 months is up then you will be charged for the router.
Sorry mate btw this is a process so most people you speak to will advise you of this, they can only add the charge if you have raised a disconnection request.
Thanks for looking into this. If this is the case, then the reps should inform customers of the terms and conditions of taking the equipment. As stated above, I was not informed, and to make the situation worse, my brother was about to leave VM also a few months after me, and he took up the wireless router offer from retentions too after I had done. So I have shafted him aswell as myself.:( This call was also recorded and this 2nd rep also did not tell us about the 12 months minimum term if he took the router or the £40 fee. This would mean that VM reps are systematically deceiving customers.
Its not a contract on the service just on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router
As above.....:mad: I'm going to go to court if needs be. £80 at stake now and the principler that you can't treat customers with such conniving, deceptive, low life behaviour.
cook1984
21-04-2009, 21:47
Just send the router back to them (anyone know the address for returns?)
The bottom line is that you never agreed to a new contract. You were never even told that there was one.
Just cancel your direct debits, send the equipment back and see what they do. It's easier than going to court or wasting time on the phone with them.
That is the worst thing to do. Never ever ever 'just cancel the D/D and see what they do' with ANY company you deal with
Virgin would continue to bill until the account disconnect due to non-payment, this would then be recorded on your credit file and Virgin would then take legal action to recover the outstanding amount
That is the worst thing to do. Never ever ever 'just cancel the D/D and see what they do' with ANY company you deal with
Indead but not for the reasons stated. What i would do in this suituation is cancil with the approapate 30 days notice reminding them you dont owe the £40 remind them of the recoding do this by post and phone (send letter by recorded delivery), let them take the £40 via the dd (assuming all attempts to get CS to write this off fail)
Then you have 3 options.
1) Make a claim under the DD garentee for an incorrect Direct Debit (you get the £40 back from the bank who then claim it back from VM).
At this stage VM may decide to continue to pursue you for the £40 balance. At this stage formally dispute the charge reminding VM you have a recoding of the call with no mention of a £40 charge, if they still claim you own this money VM will most likly then pass your file onto a collections agency who will threaten court, inform the collections agency of the disputed charge and the recoded call, at this stage they will either close the file OR take the case to the county court if it gets this far MAKE SURE YOU ATTEND (if you dont you WILL get a CCJ), enter your recoding as evidence (along with recordings of ALL calls upto this stage and all written communications (sent by recorded delivery)) 90% chance you win, get your £40 back plus expenses (10% chance you loose have to loose the £40 plus pay VM's costs)
2) As soon as they take the money file a claim with the small claims court (court fees of (i think £120) apply) 9 out of 10 times they dont show or offer to settle, you win by default (you get your £40 + court costs + expenses), get to send the baylifs into VM's office to collect cash and goods upto the judgement value (plus costs of collection) VERY SATASFYING.
IF they do show enter the recoding (and all other recordings) plus all written communications into evidence 9 out of 10 times you win (same as above applys), if you loose then the same applys to looseing in senario 1 (but costs are lower due to being small claims court)
3) let them take the £40 forget about it never use VM again.
IF it were me i would choose option 2 (in fact i have (not with VM) a few times in simmilar suituations) however you MUST remember with options 1 and 2 there IS a chance of loseing, and doing so comes with costs.
OF CAUSE exaust ALL possiable avenues BEFORE it comes to choosing between option 1,2 or 3
Citzens advise beuro and the office of fair traiding should bee your first contacts before finally agreeing to the cancillations (you could also try OFCOM but there generally usless when dealing with indivudual cases). CAB and OFT are the orginzations designed for these cases.
Just to add to this if you choose any of the above options I TAKE NO RESPONSIABILY FOR THE OUTCOME. there is always a chance of losing and you should take this into account in your desision making.
That seems completely overblown!
I would never recommend allowing a disputed amount to be taken and then claimed back - if you don't agree with a balance cancel the D/D before it is taken. Just don't expect a D/D cancellation alone to close the VM account
WokStation
22-04-2009, 13:59
I've not listened to the recording, but a couple of points...
If you didn't agree, they cannot enforce it.
If they claim you have agreed to the contract, ask them for proof. It is for them to prove that you did.
If they attempt to amend your credit file, add an adjustment and then take VM to small-claims to recoup any costs plus a little extra for harrassment.
Don't speak to the frontline guys, ask for a manager. Frontline guys rarely have much power. When you get through to the manager, make sure you explain that VM are trying to claim you are tied to a contract to which you never agreed, ask them for proof of this supposed agreement and make it clear that you'll take this to any regulator you need to in order to get it sorted - also that you won't bawk at taking them to small claims yourself.
Sending you the router is not proof of your agreeing to a contract. They need to provide either your signature on a contract, or a recording of you agreeing verbally. Anything else simply isn't proof.
It isn't a contract!!!
Its 'If you disconnect within 12 months of recieving a free wireless router you will be charged for £40 for the wireless router.'
If it was a new contract Early Disconnection Fees for the services themselves would also apply
WokStation
22-04-2009, 14:37
It isn't a contract!!!
Its 'If you disconnect within 12 months of recieving a free wireless router you will be charged for £40 for the wireless router.'
If it was a new contract Early Disconnection Fees for the services themselves would also apply
That is a binding agreement, thus a contract. If it's not a binding agreement, it cannot be enforced and the user doesn't have to be obligated by it.
So which is it? Contract, or meaningless waffle? It's one of them...
broadbandking
22-04-2009, 15:02
@Wokstation, front line guys have little power, how little you know about call centres, you have to remember us front line guys deal with customers day in and day out and intrusted to make the correct choice this is what our job is.
WokStation
22-04-2009, 15:08
@Workstation, front line guys have little power, how little you know about call centres, you have to remember us front line guys deal with customers day in and day out and intrusted to make the correct choice this is what our job is.
I used to work in one, so yeah, I do know that the frontliner's power is limited compared to that of the centre manager.
You cannot make many of the agreements that the manager can, simply because you don't have the power of that discretion.
PS, there's no R in my name. I'm a cooker, not a computer... :D
Just send the router back to them (anyone know the address for returns?)
The bottom line is that you never agreed to a new contract. You were never even told that there was one.
Just cancel your direct debits, send the equipment back and see what they do. It's easier than going to court or wasting time on the phone with them.
Won't let me send it back to them. VM probably buy these (WGR614 which are not very reliable routers) for around 10 quid, so they'll enjoy getting the 40 quid out of me!
Indead but not for the reasons stated. What i would do in this suituation is cancil with the approapate 30 days notice reminding them you dont owe the £40 remind them of the recoding do this by post and phone (send letter by recorded delivery), let them take the £40 via the dd (assuming all attempts to get CS to write this off fail)
Then you have 3 options.
1) Make a claim under the DD garentee for an incorrect Direct Debit (you get the £40 back from the bank who then claim it back from VM).
At this stage VM may decide to continue to pursue you for the £40 balance. At this stage formally dispute the charge reminding VM you have a recoding of the call with no mention of a £40 charge, if they still claim you own this money VM will most likly then pass your file onto a collections agency who will threaten court, inform the collections agency of the disputed charge and the recoded call, at this stage they will either close the file OR take the case to the county court if it gets this far MAKE SURE YOU ATTEND (if you dont you WILL get a CCJ), enter your recoding as evidence (along with recordings of ALL calls upto this stage and all written communications (sent by recorded delivery)) 90% chance you win, get your £40 back plus expenses (10% chance you loose have to loose the £40 plus pay VM's costs)
2) As soon as they take the money file a claim with the small claims court (court fees of (i think £120) apply) 9 out of 10 times they dont show or offer to settle, you win by default (you get your £40 + court costs + expenses), get to send the baylifs into VM's office to collect cash and goods upto the judgement value (plus costs of collection) VERY SATASFYING.
IF they do show enter the recoding (and all other recordings) plus all written communications into evidence 9 out of 10 times you win (same as above applys), if you loose then the same applys to looseing in senario 1 (but costs are lower due to being small claims court)
3) let them take the £40 forget about it never use VM again.
IF it were me i would choose option 2 (in fact i have (not with VM) a few times in simmilar suituations) however you MUST remember with options 1 and 2 there IS a chance of loseing, and doing so comes with costs.
OF CAUSE exaust ALL possiable avenues BEFORE it comes to choosing between option 1,2 or 3
Citzens advise beuro and the office of fair traiding should bee your first contacts before finally agreeing to the cancillations (you could also try OFCOM but there generally usless when dealing with indivudual cases). CAB and OFT are the orginzations designed for these cases.
Just to add to this if you choose any of the above options I TAKE NO RESPONSIABILY FOR THE OUTCOME. there is always a chance of losing and you should take this into account in your desision making.
Thanks for you detailed and excellent advice, option 2 is probably the one I will follow, my brother is going to be in the same position in a few months, think I'll wait until he disconnects and then do a joint action. His call recording is better than mine and starts pretty much from the start of the call.
I've not listened to the recording, but a couple of points...
If you didn't agree, they cannot enforce it.
If they claim you have agreed to the contract, ask them for proof. It is for them to prove that you did.
If they attempt to amend your credit file, add an adjustment and then take VM to small-claims to recoup any costs plus a little extra for harrassment.
Don't speak to the frontline guys, ask for a manager. Frontline guys rarely have much power. When you get through to the manager, make sure you explain that VM are trying to claim you are tied to a contract to which you never agreed, ask them for proof of this supposed agreement and make it clear that you'll take this to any regulator you need to in order to get it sorted - also that you won't bawk at taking them to small claims yourself.
Sending you the router is not proof of your agreeing to a contract. They need to provide either your signature on a contract, or a recording of you agreeing verbally. Anything else simply isn't proof.
Exactly as broadbandking stated "Its ......a contract on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router"
I have been forced into a contractual situation without agreeing to it or being informed as to the terms and conditions. Totally beyond the pale!
It isn't a contract!!!
Its 'If you disconnect within 12 months of recieving a free wireless router you will be charged for £40 for the wireless router.'
If it was a new contract Early Disconnection Fees for the services themselves would also apply
I find it disappointing that you have not at all condemned this devious kind of behaviour by VM reps, but instead use semantics to obfuscate things instead.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4966/341790.jpg
cook1984
23-04-2009, 00:22
That is the worst thing to do. Never ever ever 'just cancel the D/D and see what they do' with ANY company you deal with
Virgin would continue to bill until the account disconnect due to non-payment, this would then be recorded on your credit file and Virgin would then take legal action to recover the outstanding amount
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Outstanding bills with service providers do not go on your credit report. The only things that go on it are loans (including credit card debt, missed loan/card repayments etc). Utility bills are not recorded and so not affect your credit rating or ability to get service from other providers in any way.
As for taking legal action to recover the amount, they won't. To recover money they have to prove a debt exists. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to the debt (which you certainly did not, because even if you did sign a contract it was for services not any kind of loan or debt) then they can't take legal action to make you pay. It's as simple as that.
A direct debit is a payment controlled by you to a company for services provided. You have told that company you no longer want it's services and have fulfilled the agreed contract. You are free to cancel the direct debit. Virgin cannot take money from your account without your agreement, and clearly you have withdrawn your agreement.
I'm amazed at how little people know about this sort of thing.
Problem is cook, in most cases that is correct.
But with VM you pay for your services up front, so the month you dont pay you will receive services maybe for close a month then they will kick you in the nuts.
So in essence you have stolen from them, and small claim courts would accept that.
@ Everyone else, whenever you get into a contract with anyone always ALWAYS make sure your back is covered.
As said in another thread, have a get out clause, thusly if the service your paying for is bad then you can leave without repurcussions.
And as always a telephone contract is not worth a penny, if for some reason you have someway of recording calls you can for legal reasons but you have to explain to them that you are recording the call also or it becomes null and void.
When I just got a re-offer to come back to them, I asked them to send me out a paper contract (2 copies) with their signatures on it detailing whats involved I will sign both and send 1 copy back to them.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Outstanding bills with service providers do not go on your credit report. The only things that go on it are loans (including credit card debt, missed loan/card repayments etc). Utility bills are not recorded and so not affect your credit rating or ability to get service from other providers in any way.
Payments may not do but defaults certainly do - the calls that Virgin get from people with entries prove it (usually when applying for a mortgage)
Also
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/credit_check.html
We are entitled to carry out a credit check on you at any time. We may search the files of credit reference agencies which may keep a record of that search. Details of how you conduct your account may also be disclosed to such agencies.
As for taking legal action to recover the amount, they won't. To recover money they have to prove a debt exists. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to the debt (which you certainly did not, because even if you did sign a contract it was for services not any kind of loan or debt) then they can't take legal action to make you pay. It's as simple as that.
If Virgin send you a bill for services recieved and you don't pay it that is a debt and Virgin are quite within their rights to recover the money.
A direct debit is a payment controlled by you to a company for services provided. You have told that company you no longer want it's services and have fulfilled the agreed contract. You are free to cancel the direct debit. Virgin cannot take money from your account without your agreement, and clearly you have withdrawn your agreement.
Indeed but cancellation of Direct Debit does not indicate the cancellation of services.
So if you 'just' cancel the D/D you will still be billed for services until the account is disconnected due to non-payment
I'm amazed at how little people know about this sort of thing.
I'm amazed how many people thinking ignoring stuff works.
Fine cancel the D/D - but you HAVE to cancel the VM account as well otherwise you are just causing more trouble
Quote:
As for taking legal action to recover the amount, they won't. To recover money they have to prove a debt exists. If you didn't sign a contract agreeing to the debt (which you certainly did not, because even if you did sign a contract it was for services not any kind of loan or debt) then they can't take legal action to make you pay. It's as simple as that.
"If Virgin send you a bill for services recieved and you don't pay it that is a debt and Virgin are quite within their rights to recover the money."
I work in debit recovery - Sorry but creating a bill is not proof of order - I wish it was.
Virgin would have to show an signed order for the items billed. As to if they can in this case is a different matter.
A signed order? Does that means I don't have to pay for anything I order off the internet as I never sign for any of it
Zhadnost
23-04-2009, 13:30
Its not a contract on the service just on the router and if you disconnect then they will charge you for the equipment i.e the router
Err, so the service isn't on contract, they just sent him a free router with 12 months support? Where do I sign?
---------- Post added at 13:30 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------
As above.....:mad: I'm going to go to court if needs be. £80 at stake now and the principler that you can't treat customers with such conniving, deceptive, low life behaviour.
I didn't know it was bbk you spoke to.
cook1984
23-04-2009, 17:46
If Virgin send you a bill for services recieved and you don't pay it that is a debt and Virgin are quite within their rights to recover the money.
It's only a debt if you agreed to it being a debt. Clearly the op did not agree to it.
This is rather fundamental so I'll say it again: a debt can only exist if agreed by both parties. If one party questions it, the other has to prove the debt was agreed to, e.g. by producing a signed contract.
If you believe otherwise, then I'd like to inform you that you owe me £1,000,000. Pay up for I'm sending in the bailiffs.
Indeed but cancellation of Direct Debit does not indicate the cancellation of services.
Phone them and say you are cancelling your service. Do not ask to cancel it, tell them you are cancelling it. You are out of the agreed contract term, and did not agree to any further contracts or extensions. The burden of proof to show you agreed to another contract is on them, not you.
Err, so the service isn't on contract, they just sent him a free router with 12 months support? Where do I sign?
Yes, that's exactly what they did. They didn't ask him to agree to a new contract, they just agreed to send him a router.
The router remains their property and needs to be returned, although I think you could make a pretty good argument that it was sent to you as a gift. Normally if someone sends you something without first reaching agreement with you to pay for it or loan it, by law it is considered a gift. Many companies will read you the terms and conditions, or at least direct you to read them somewhere before loaning you things.
In the spirit of good will though I would obviously just send it back, I'm just making a point about how poor VM are with their management of contracts and agreements.
It's only a debt if you agreed to it being a debt. Clearly the op did not agree to it.
This is rather fundamental so I'll say it again: a debt can only exist if agreed by both parties. If one party questions it, the other has to prove the debt was agreed to, e.g. by producing a signed contract.
Virgin have services in the OP address - therefore the OP asked for services and agreed to pay for them. If he doesn't pay for them that debt is then an agreed debt.
Whether or not you pay them for the router is seperate dispute. But your advise to the OP was
Just cancel your direct debits, send the equipment back and see what they do. It's easier than going to court or wasting time on the phone with them.
So that would run up a debit for agreed services not paid for
If you believe otherwise, then I'd like to inform you that you owe me £1,000,000. Pay up for I'm sending in the bailiffs.
Go on then. But as I have never had any dealings with you - there is nothing of yours in my flat, nor have I paid anything to you in the past - you would have to prove I have even heard of you
A different situation to the OP - who has been recieving VM service, paying VM for services, and has VM equipment in their address
Phone them and say you are cancelling your service. Do not ask to cancel it, tell them you are cancelling it. You are out of the agreed contract term, and did not agree to any further contracts or extensions. The burden of proof to show you agreed to another contract is on them, not you.
Well I'm glad you get that you have to cancel the services with Virgin - that is not what you said earlier
cook1984
24-04-2009, 15:05
Virgin have services in the OP address - therefore the OP asked for services and agreed to pay for them. If he doesn't pay for them that debt is then an agreed debt.
So, if you call Virgin, or BT, or anyone providing a utility service and ask to be disconnected and close your account, they can just refuse and you have no choice but to continue paying them?
Once the initially agreed contract period is up, you can cancel at any time. The contract may require a reasonable period of notice, typically maximum one month. After that, unless they have a bit of paper signed by you saying otherwise, they cannot continue to bill you.
So that would run up a debit for agreed services not paid for
Only if he agreed to them. Please show me where he said he agreed to starting another year long contract.
Well I'm glad you get that you have to cancel the services with Virgin - that is not what you said earlier
That is what I said earlier. Go back and read it. The OP said he told them he was cancelling.
So, if you call Virgin, or BT, or anyone providing a utility service and ask to be disconnected and close your account, they can just refuse and you have no choice but to continue paying them?
No of course they can't refuse - I never said they could
Once the initially agreed contract period is up, you can cancel at any time. The contract may require a reasonable period of notice, typically maximum one month. After that, unless they have a bit of paper signed by you saying otherwise, they cannot continue to bill you.
And at the same time you would have to prove that you gave them notice to quit.
If you can then obviously any fees after the notice period would be waived.
You couldn't just say 'I quit at the end of my contract' and then stop paying without either telling them or being able to prove you told them
Only if he agreed to them. Please show me where he said he agreed to starting another year long contract.
He didn't - which is why he can quit without service EDFs.
That is what I said earlier. Go back and read it. The OP said he told them he was cancelling.
I did - and I quoted what you said - which was 'Just cancel your D/D and see what they do'
cook1984
24-04-2009, 23:24
And at the same time you would have to prove that you gave them notice to quit.
Registered post would be ideal, but even just fully itemised billing showing that you called them would be enough in practice. Okay, it doesn't prove you actually said you wanted to cancel to them, but since they don't record the calls they can't prove otherwise and any court would take your word for it on the balance of probabilities.
You couldn't just say 'I quit at the end of my contract' and then stop paying without either telling them or being able to prove you told them
Is that an echo I'm hearing?
He didn't - which is why he can quit without service EDFs.
So, you agree with me, you are just arguing to save face maybe?
I did - and I quoted what you said - which was 'Just cancel your D/D and see what they do'
Context, n.
1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.
Well, I posted the details of my case on here along with the evidence. I know I am right and many of the people on this forum feel the same in the light of the evidence and more. We have seen the reps here, like BenMcr probably of the same ilk as the rep that lied to me, have not said a word about the issue in the light of the evidence and instead used semantics to obfuscate the issue instead.
l'll probably have to go to the small claims court. Hopefully truth, justice and honesty will prevail and VM liars will get a kick in the knackers:mad:
I'll say again: VirginMedia reps lie - always record your calls
Success! VM will refund the cost of the router £40 as I WAS deceived. Will be getting a cheque soon! Promised by head office after sending an email to neil birkett along with the recording of the VM lying rep. If I did not have this recording I would have not had any success, so the rule if to ALWAYS record your calls with VirminMedia or any other CSA over the phone.
soulspawn
09-03-2010, 01:05
congrats, after a years you got your £40 back, i would of given up long before that just had it done with, when i was on the phone they were nice enough and got everything moved over from the previous owner in no time, i can only imagine that guy isn't working there and always double check with them what is happening. ask them to repeat the conditions!
Congrats...That’s a kick in the balls to all the VM reps. How many other people are tricked into the secret 12 month contract.
congrats, after a years you got your £40 back, i would of given up long before that just had it done with, when i was on the phone they were nice enough and got everything moved over from the previous owner in no time, i can only imagine that guy isn't working there and always double check with them what is happening. ask them to repeat the conditions!
I haveen't been fighting against them for a year! I left it for a bit, always knew I was in the right so knew I would get there in the end. I thought some of the VM reps on here would have sorted it, but they tried to muddy the waters instead and talked rubbish. I emailed VM a week or so ago to complain, got a snotty woman who told me she would not refund anything. Emailed Neil Birkett a few days later and it was sorted the next day! Better £40 in my pocket than VM's and a kick in the nads for deceiving customers.
The rule to learn from this is : VM reps lie - ALWAYS record you calls
I think I'll put the voice recording of him giving me the free router on here, maybe someone will recognise the voice. To add insult to injury, he said he would give me a £10 discount to buy the USB Wifi dongle and then preceded to send me the USB dongle and charged me £20 for it! :mad:
No, you won't..
speedfreak
09-03-2010, 20:17
The rule to learn from this is : VM reps lie - ALWAYS record you calls
Bit of a sweeping statement there :erm:
No, you won't..
That was posted 4th April 2009 ;)
No, you won't..
I would and I did!:D
I would and I did!:D
So.....where is it:erm::shrug:?
The rule to learn from this is : VM reps lie - ALWAYS record you calls
A nice sweeping statement, but more importantly did you inform the agent at any point that you were recording them as legally any recording is void otherwise regardless of the outcome.
speedfreak
09-03-2010, 21:48
A nice sweeping statement, but more importantly did you inform the agent at any point that you were recording them as legally any recording is void otherwise regardless of the outcome.
I thought you couldnt share it with a third party without prior consent from the other party :confused: but if Ive read it right the recording had been posted on here?
I thought you couldnt share it with a third party without prior consent from the other party :confused: but if Ive read it right the recording had been posted on here?
You can record whatever you want but you are supposed to ask for legal reasons to ensure that it is not classed as inadmissible as you could be leading the agent into certain comments.
I would personally have no qualms about being recorded as I have nothing to hide.:)
Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?
No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.
This is taken from HERE. (http://www.retellrecorders.co.uk/legal/home.htm)
Like I said before VM record calls, that also gives me the right to record my call with them. Also the rights of customers not to be deceived and lied to supersede the rights of lying reps IMO.
Also "The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use."
Also "The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use."
Own use meaning for you. Not to post on the internet or send to anyone else I would say that means.
Also, recording calls in future, laws aside, it's common courtesy and politeness to inform someone you are recording the call. Why not simply say from the off, "I'm recording this call is that ok?" You know then that you will get all the correct details etc. Shouldn't have to be that way I know, but with most companies/CSA's, that I would say is the only sure fire way of getting the correct information at first port of call. As if that person you speak to is a "bad egg" they sure as hell won't be on that call.
Glad you got your £40 back, £3.33 a month since started is that? :rolleyes: ;)
Like I said before VM record calls, that also gives me the right to record my call with them. Also the rights of customers not to be deceived and lied to supersede the rights of lying reps IMO.
Also "The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use."
No you make sweeping statements about people lying then want to post recorded calls illegally obtained without permissions online, own use means you cannot post them online or play them to a 3rd party regardless of who they are.
You call people liars but you want to break the law, a classic case of pot calling the kettle black.
Get a life.
The rep lied to him as im sure they do every call as they did when I changed my package nobody mentioned another 12 month. He is only one person doing the recording but VM are prob doing it to every call they take I know which one I think is the worst. I see a lot of VM staff complaining about the call, maybe it’s embarrassing and are trying to cover the fact they tell lies :)
Naughty VM staff
The rep lied to him as im sure they do every call as they did when I changed my package nobody mentioned another 12 month. He is only one person doing the recording but VM are prob doing it to every call they take I know which one I think is the worst. I see a lot of VM staff complaining about the call, maybe it’s embarrassing and are trying to cover the fact they tell lies :)
Naughty VM staff
If you speak to me and say that you are recording the call I will just say go ahead as I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with people thinking they can use a recorded call against an agent which they failed to inform them about.
To do so is breaking the law as it cannot be played to a 3rd party.
Please be aware though that a 3rd party would mean someone other than VM or the OP.. The caller did not break any laws by giving the recording to anyone acting on behalf of VM or anyone acting on behalf of himself (i.e.. a solicitor) or if so ordered by a court..
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