View Full Version : OMG look how far behind the UK is!
*sloman*
01-04-2009, 20:10
Stats taken from speedtest.net
OMG you have Lithuania, Romania, Latvia & Bulgaria and more less developed countries than the UK with a higher average BB speed!!
40th place on download and 48th on upload!
Top Countries by Download Speed
* 1.17.83 Mb/s Korea, Republic of
* 2.16.07 Mb/s Japan
* 3.11.55 Mb/s Sweden
* 4.11.28 Mb/s Lithuania
* 5.10.33 Mb/s Romania
* 6.10.11 Mb/s Latvia
* 7.9.39 Mb/s Bulgaria
* 8.8.97 Mb/s Netherlands
* 9.7.59 Mb/s Germany
* 10.7.39 Mb/s Russian Federation
* 11.7.26 Mb/s Moldova, Republic of
* 12.7.23 Mb/s Slovakia
* 13.7.15 Mb/s Switzerland
* 14.7.04 Mb/s Finland
* 40.4.62 Mb/s United Kingdom
Top Countries by Upload Speed
* 1.8.08 Mb/s Lithuania
* 2.7.49 Mb/s Japan
* 3.4.43 Mb/s Bulgaria
* 4.4.32 Mb/s Romania
* 5.4.28 Mb/s Russian Federation
* 6.4.10 Mb/s Sweden
* 7.3.86 Mb/s Slovenia
* 8.3.86 Mb/s Latvia
* 9.3.35 Mb/s Moldova, Republic of
* 10.3.32 Mb/s Andorra
* 11.2.95 Mb/s Korea, Republic of
* 12.2.79 Mb/s Asia/Pacific Region
* 13.2.77 Mb/s Hong Kong
* 14.2.72 Mb/s Netherlands
* 48.0.65 Mb/s United Kingdom
---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------
Argh sorry posted this in the wrong Area could a MOD/ADMIN please move this post!
Ignitionnet
01-04-2009, 20:13
And this surprises you why exactly dude? ;)
I'm just waiting on the mass of excuses that will no doubt be incoming. Their testers are rigged, our results are somehow wrong, the UK for some reason doesn't use the Internet like everyone else, etc, etc.
*sloman*
01-04-2009, 20:15
i knew we were bad but i thought we would at least be in the top 20 for download.
I expected the upload to be dismal
Ignitionnet
01-04-2009, 20:33
Have a read of the Akamai report for Q4 2008, that's full of more great news too.
Anyone got any info on costs in these countries?:erm:
DrStrange
01-04-2009, 20:59
OP, You do know the rule that if the joke is played after 12 noon on April Fools Day, you are the April Fool instead :o:
Ignitionnet
01-04-2009, 21:11
Anyone got any info on costs in these countries?:erm:
100Mbit both ways in Japan is less than 30 quid a month or so, Korea less than 25, Hong Kong similar.
10Mbit both ways in Hong Kong less than a tenner.
100Mbit in France is 30 quid a month including TV service.
Netherlands 2M/512k is 14 quid, 25M/2.5M is 30 quid, including phone service.
Romania - 20M/2M over cable is 13 quid a month.
Sweden - 100M both ways and phone service 27 quid a month.
You get the idea.
My friend gets this for about £20 a month (100mb/100mb connection)
Download Failed (1) (http://www.uoforums.com/members/gnomy-albums-gnomys-picture933-speed.jpg)
I'm seriously considering moving there, given how cheap housing is and how beautiful parts of sweden are, it is awful tempting (60k for a 5 bedroom, 2 bathroom detached place for example, with 100mb/100mb available)
keyholder
01-04-2009, 21:23
Even if these countries are Less developed, which most are not, Especially Lithuania Id sooner live there..
As another price comparison..
A bullet proof door there + fixtures , fitted and to be pro fitted = a grand total of £340. In uk that wud cost into the thousands.
a House approx £7k . Uk wise Add a few zero's & more.
Says Alot for uk. Id say its the uk is under developed & over charged, no wonder this country and companys have been and still are going to the sewers rapidly.
---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------
100Mbit both ways in Japan is less than 30 quid a month or so, Korea less than 25, Hong Kong similar.
10Mbit both ways in Hong Kong less than a tenner.
100Mbit in France is 30 quid a month including TV service.
Netherlands 2M/512k is 14 quid, 25M/2.5M is 30 quid, including phone service.
Romania - 20M/2M over cable is 13 quid a month.
Sweden - 100M both ways and phone service 27 quid a month.
You get the idea.
Nice comparison. I want to cry now :( :(
100Mbit both ways in Japan is less than 30 quid a month or so, Korea less than 25, Hong Kong similar.
10Mbit both ways in Hong Kong less than a tenner.
100Mbit in France is 30 quid a month including TV service.
Netherlands 2M/512k is 14 quid, 25M/2.5M is 30 quid, including phone service.
Romania - 20M/2M over cable is 13 quid a month.
Sweden - 100M both ways and phone service 27 quid a month.
You get the idea.
Thanks..:)
Ignitionnet
01-04-2009, 21:33
A couple of places, Switzerland being notable, are more expensive than here. You're looking at 40GBP/month for 25/2.5 there.
cook1984
01-04-2009, 22:08
Your info on Japan is out of date. I just got back from there.
1000/1000 (yes, gigabit) fibre connection for ~£35/month, truly unlimited, and free access to the a nationwide wifi network for when you are out and about for the first year.
100/100 is available for about £20/month.
Actually using 100/100 is a totally new experience. Not only do things upload and download incredibly fast, but heavy use does not affect latency - i.e. your ping times in games stay low.
There are other benefits too, like the fact that now most routers give maximum throughput numbers and are designed to handle at least 100Mb/sec traffic and 1000+ connections. Most of the rubbish we still get like Linksys and Belkin can't come close to 100Mb/sec throughput, and typically maxes out at around 50-100 connections.
Retrovertigo
01-04-2009, 23:01
So what happened in those countries that couldn't happen here? Just BT being cheapskates when it came to infrastructure? And for people saying that contention ratios need to be higher than expected to cover the cost of running VM effectively, and hence whey we don't all get 20meg non-stop, how do those countries listed afford to offer services way beyond ours?
Ignitionnet
01-04-2009, 23:11
Hi,
Wasn't really a concise survey I was just bimbling through and took some numbers from a particular ISP.
I'm interested that gigabit is available widely, I wasn't even aware of its' existence. How did you find congestion there and international connectivity, I remember you mentioning it was considerably better than I remember it being previously?
Which ISP(s) do gig? A quick look around a couple shows (just) 100M?
---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------
So what happened in those countries that couldn't happen here? Just BT being cheapskates when it came to infrastructure? And for people saying that contention ratios need to be higher than expected to cover the cost of running VM effectively, and hence whey we don't all get 20meg non-stop, how do those countries listed afford to offer services way beyond ours?
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/the-broadband-gap-why-do-they-have-more-fiber/
Part of it is Government related:
Sweden has built one of the fastest and most widely deployed broadband networks in Europe because its government granted tax breaks for infrastructure investments, directly subsidized rural deployment, and, perhaps most significantly, required state-owned municipal utilities to create local backbone networks, reducing the cost for the local telephone company to provide service.
Japan let telecommunications companies write down about one-third of their investment in broadband the first year, rather than the usual policy, which requires them to spread the deductions over 22 years. The Japanese government also subsidized low-cost loans for broadband construction and paid for part of the wiring of rural areas.
In many countries, especially in Asia, government assistance has gone hand in hand with an expectation that private companies will accept lower profit margins in order to assist in achieving the national broadband goals.
“The South Korean government expects its private companies to drive the investment in broadband infrastructure with government support in the form of loans and tax subsidies as their incentive,”
The UK taxes every single strand of lit fibre rather than promoting deployment of it. In addition BT have been told they can charge what they like for access to their 'next generation' FTTC network.
Lastly, competition has been an issue also. Local towns / cities building their own infrastructure spurs investment from larger companies (note in The Netherlands, Amsterdam begins a fibre deployment, the cable company UPC release a 120Mbit/10Mbit product) as well as one company 'taking the plunge' and offering next generation level services causing others to increase investment to compete.
Here BT do as little as possible to get by and VM do as little as possible to keep that bit ahead of BT and neither of them have any interest in making any serious investment which is especially bad from the BT point of view as they have a special deal meaning they pay a fraction of the 'fibre tax' that everyone else pays.
Without wanting to look further, wher does the OP get the figures ? are they averaged out per rota, have the other countries higher tiers than us, I find 4.6 down and .6 up hard to believe, it's never been that bad around these parts.
Without wanting to look further, wher does the OP get the figures ? are they averaged out per rota, have the other countries higher tiers than us, I find 4.6 down and .6 up hard to believe, it's never been that bad around these parts.
Very first line of post #1:
Stats taken from speedtest.net
This page (http://www.speedtest.net/global.php) by the looks of it.
I suspect the data are are just an average of performed tests though, so they reflect the tiers available rather than performance.
Very first line of post #1:
This page (http://www.speedtest.net/global.php) by the looks of it.
I suspect the data are are just an average of performed tests though, so they reflect the tiers available rather than performance.
Speed test.net :dozey:
And an average of performed tests, again, what tiers, how many different in each country etc
I think this is just BS, yeah, we might need dragging up a notch or two, we're getting there, but there's no way I'm believing that :erm:
Lol at these posts ... the grass is always greener on the other side.
How many of the countries with better download speeds than the UK have better health, education, police and welfare systems than we do?
Our survey says .... Du-dur!
There are far bigger and important things to think about than the speed of your internet connection so stop whining!
There are far bigger and important things to think about than the speed of your internet connection so stop whining!
There are, but they are in other threads so stop whining in this one and go save the world in another :erm: :dozey:
Lol at these posts ... the grass is always greener on the other side.
How many of the countries with better download speeds than the UK have better health, education, police and welfare systems than we do?
Out if the top 15? Six...
* 1.17.83 Mb/s Korea, Republic of
* 2.16.07 Mb/s Japan
* 3.11.55 Mb/s Sweden
* 4.11.28 Mb/s Lithuania
* 5.10.33 Mb/s Romania
* 6.10.11 Mb/s Latvia
* 7.9.39 Mb/s Bulgaria
* 8.8.97 Mb/s Netherlands
* 9.7.59 Mb/s Germany
* 10.7.39 Mb/s Russian Federation
* 11.7.26 Mb/s Moldova, Republic of
* 12.7.23 Mb/s Slovakia
* 13.7.15 Mb/s Switzerland
* 14.7.04 Mb/s Finland
But that's all a bit off-topic :)
Out if the top 15? Six...
But that's all a bit off-topic :)
Thank you Mr diplomatic :D
There are, but they are in other threads so stop whining in this one and go save the world in another :erm: :dozey:
I think I like your answer better :)
I think I like your answer better :)
I'm blushing here :D
DocDutch
02-04-2009, 00:23
it sounds harsh but it is true...the UK doesnt invest enough in broadband technology and the gov isnt helping things either. But then saying that broadbandlings has a good point that in some of the countries the cities themself are putting in fibre to the door instead of waiting for ISP's to do it. I know as a fact that in Holland in quite a few cities and even some villages the council took it up on themself to lay fibre all the way.
And I think this list sums it up pretty well in average speeds, even if all the people that have 24mb ADSL or say 50MB Cable would go on speedtest even then it the uk wouldnt go up that much.
Do you really think President Brown & Sir RB will take these facts & figures to heart, maybe even DO SOMETHING about it ? Somehow I don't think so, Mr "we will not be held to ransom" President Brown in particular!
---------- Post added at 01:33 ---------- Previous post was at 00:54 ----------
Ok, so that was a mite political, sorry. I have been on 20Mb for about 12 months now & have seen download speeds of 1.1Mb twice!! My normal speeds are around 10 to 50k. Various speed tests show around 19.5/0.7 wots going on? Any ideas welcome.
Ignitionnet
02-04-2009, 10:56
Speed test.net :dozey:
And an average of performed tests, again, what tiers, how many different in each country etc
I think this is just BS, yeah, we might need dragging up a notch or two, we're getting there, but there's no way I'm believing that :erm:
Ah there's what I was talking about.
Speedtest.net is mysteriously biased against and doesn't work properly in the UK then, while everywhere else in the world is fine, ya? ;)
Remember not everyone is on 20Mbit VM cable, a lot are using slower cable and DSL, and also the official average broadband speed in the UK, download wise, is less than 4Mbit according to Ofcom, do bear that in mind.
---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 ----------
Do you really think President Brown & Sir RB will take these facts & figures to heart, maybe even DO SOMETHING about it ? Somehow I don't think so, Mr "we will not be held to ransom" President Brown in particular!
See my earlier post, that ignorant gimboid Brown is too busy taxing broadband to pay it anything more than lip service. All the government care about is that you have enough bandwidth to read the incomprehensible rubbish that is the UK's government gateway.
---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------
Come on you lot have a good moan about UK broadband, I speak regularly with people who monitor this stuff for a living, I love it.
Remember guys, the UK is one of the richer countries in the world, one of the more densely populated, and London is the 7th richest country in the world by personal earnings and 3rd most expensive to reside in. Demographically we should kick the hindmost of most of Europe.
Go on, have a good complain about the fact that 'poorer' countries are doing it so much better, while we are busy spending money totally unproductively on bailouts and actually taxing fibre deployments.
---------- Post added at 10:56 ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 ----------
I know as a fact that in Holland in quite a few cities and even some villages the council took it up on themself to lay fibre all the way.
The Holland model is really the ideal. A company puts fibre down and that's all they do, they put bits of glass to people's homes and then connect them up with service providers directly. People pay ISPs, ISPs pay them rental for the fibre and the interconnects and can put whatever they want to down them. No combining, no splitting, 1 home, 1 or more fibres right to the central office.
Also of note is that the Dutch telephone company, KPN, is involved in the fibre deployment alongside a company they acquired an interest in, Reggefiber.
Bummer here is that even BT's FTTH product ensures that BT retain control of the product.
Remember guys, the UK is one of the richer countries in the world, one of the more densely populated, and London is the 7th richest country in the world by personal earnings and 3rd most expensive to reside in. Demographically we should kick the hindmost of most of Europe.
Yes, our cities are densely populated, especially London. People moaning about their lack of broadband speed ougt to consider how much it would cost to dig up streets to lay the fibre optics they crave for their personal pr0n access ... and then not expect to pay anything like near it's true value.
On a list of government priorities, super fast internet access isn't, and shouldn't be, anywhere near the top of their lists. Internet access for all should be but not the speeds some seem to be craving for. If you want a car to do 190mph, buy a Ferrari.
*sloman*
02-04-2009, 20:18
you say that now but did you predict the video revolution (Youtube,BBC Iplayer etc...) 10years ago when a 56kb was more than enough for browsing web pages?
But i understand what you mean there are more important things but a plan needs to be put in place for this
No one could have predicted exactly what was going to happen with the internet 10 years ago! If I could have done, I'd own an island and be hosting world leaders for lunch!
A majority of those that complain about internet speeds use entertainment as the driving force saying that's why we need faster net access. It's like a car, I'd like a nice flash, fast BMW but I don't need one. The car I have now does the job.
I'm sure the early pioneers of radio dreamed of FM / DAB, the first movie theatres never dreamed sound talkies would take off and John Logie Baird didn't even know what Plasma / LCD was!
I know we live in a "MUST HAVE IT NOW" society but sometimes you have to wait.
DocDutch
02-04-2009, 21:57
Yes, our cities are densely populated, especially London. People moaning about their lack of broadband speed ougt to consider how much it would cost to dig up streets to lay the fibre optics they crave for their personal pr0n access ... and then not expect to pay anything like near it's true value.
On a list of government priorities, super fast internet access isn't, and shouldn't be, anywhere near the top of their lists. Internet access for all should be but not the speeds some seem to be craving for. If you want a car to do 190mph, buy a Ferrari.
Good point Elsie with regards to internet for all but can you say why the UK is lacking with development with Wimax which some countries are rolling out so that even the farm thats 5 miles away from any exchange can have internet access other then via satelite?
Maybe WiMax is something to consider but it's not the superfast, mega download speed, always on, cable connected network the moaners demand.
I don't know peoples ages but I'd be willing to bet a high number of those that complain about broadband speeds weren't even born when the CD was invented and, like the internet itself, are relatively young.
As the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day!
Very valid points there Elsie.
Looking at our broadband speeds in the UK at the moment, i like to say Virgin are doing the right thing and pushing higher speeds, not just to be best, but also to encourage higher use of a higher bandwidth service.
As said previously, Youtube and streaming media also cloud applications & storage (which virgin are utilizing soon with V Stuff) are all going to use higher and higher bandwidth, as digital camera's get better - pictures become higher quality, as HD video cameras become the norm - HD streaming will also. So i believe it shouldn't just be virgin investing in this, it should be the government and BT and other telecoms companies.
The UK is far behind considering we are one of the richest countries, considering the taxes we pay to our government, we should see some significant investment in next gen telecoms. Even the likes of mobile companies who are now offering unlimited data services are making significant improvements to support the future of mobile broadband.
There are plenty of rich people here, some of them should get together and make a difference in places like London, it could surely make them a packet.
Ignitionnet
02-04-2009, 22:31
So Elsie, care to explain why others can apparently do this and the UK can't?
Did you know that in Sweden some people don't go to see their nurse for a basic checkup, they do it via broadband and cameras. If the nurse sees something concerning they can conference in a doctor.
I complain about broadband speeds and attitudes in the UK and have used the internet for 15 years. I remember vinyl quite clearly along with magnetic cassettes. Thankfully some other countries don't have your attitude else we'd all still be using ISDN, after all it loads web pages and can do nice block-o-vision streaming. It'll even do I-Player... so long as you're prepared to wait a while for it to buffer.
Rome wasn't built in a day, but it was built - far more than can be said for the UK and true next generation infrastructure, virtually every service in the UK wouldn't even be considered broadband according to the US broadband stimulus package.
Here's another saying as we're dealing with them:
“You see things; and you say, ‘Why?’ But I dream things that never were; and I say, ‘Why not?’".
---------- Post added at 22:31 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------
Looking at our broadband speeds in the UK at the moment, i like to say Virgin are doing the right thing and pushing higher speeds, not just to be best, but also to encourage higher use of a higher bandwidth service.
50Mbit for Virgin is a schlong showing exercise, nothing more. It has a poor upload speed, is being rushed like crazy to be rolled out, and will be throttled shortly.
Virgin don't like to encourage use of their service at all, which is why they throttle them if you use them too much ;)
Virgin have no interest in 'Broadband Britain' beyond doing what they need to do to get the headlines, which is why their 50Mbit product has that 50Mbit download speed, the headline grabbing figure, and totally ignores the upstream speed that would make it a viable product. Its' only real use at the moment is as a newsgroup leeching device and that'll be taken away when they throttle it in the next 6 months.
As said previously, Youtube and streaming media also cloud applications & storage (which virgin are utilizing soon with V Stuff) are all going to use higher and higher bandwidth, as digital camera's get better - pictures become higher quality, as HD video cameras become the norm - HD streaming will also.
Cloud apps are crippled by the VM upstream speeds, storage certainly, and sharing of content via You Tube and photo sharing services becomes a non-trivial exercise. Even on the absolute highest upstream tier you are looking at 3 minutes to upload a high quality raw photograph. That's a single high quality uncompressed picture. Use your HD video camera to record some goodness for the family at say 5Mbps. Then watch as your 20 minutes of footage takes upwards of an hour to upload to V Stuff or wherever, during which time your connection is largely crippled due to upstream saturation.
Appreciate what you're saying but wholeheartedly disagree that Virgin either give two hoots about the quality of services in the UK or are contributing to improve them, in Virgin's perfect world we'd all still be on 512k and might as well be when it comes to sharing content - 50Mbit is over 100 times the download speed of the 512k service, and only 14 times the upload, 20Mbit 40 times higher download, just 6 times the upload.
Other countries get local or national government funding to pay for this - would we accept higher taxes (income or council)?
Zhadnost
02-04-2009, 23:40
Weirdly enough I would, but only if the money spent could be spent in a way whereby the product remained in taxpayers hands. Which would unfortunately never happen in the current political climate.
Callumpy
02-04-2009, 23:48
My friend gets this for about £20 a month (100mb/100mb connection)
http://www.uoforums.com/members/gnomy-albums-gnomys-picture933-speed.jpg (http://www.uoforums.com/members/gnomy-albums-gnomys-picture933-speed.jpg)
Wow. I wants that
Ignitionnet
03-04-2009, 10:08
Other countries get local or national government funding to pay for this - would we accept higher taxes (income or council)?
No they don't, you don't need to actually give them money. You can let companies write off the investment faster to improve their books, you can stop bloody taxing them for deploying fibre, you can offer them tax incentives on the investment which would cost nothing as you wouldn't get any tax if it weren't built anyway.
“The South Korean government expects its private companies to drive the investment in broadband infrastructure with government support in the form of loans and tax subsidies as their incentive,”
Loans and tax subsidies - don't cost UK PLC anything and no need for additional taxation.
Japan let telecommunications companies write down about one-third of their investment in broadband the first year, rather than the usual policy, which requires them to spread the deductions over 22 years. The Japanese government also subsidized low-cost loans for broadband construction and paid for part of the wiring of rural areas.
Only rural areas required direct funding, which they will anyway in the UK sooner or later, the rest was purely loans, tax breaks, and accounting accomodations.
Given the hundreds of billions in loan guarantees and tens of billions in direct funding that the government has been handing out some loan guarantees and tax breaks for companies to invest in infrastructure is hardly a major thing that'll pump our taxes up, especially as BT get tax breaks anyway by default.
In no small part we are hamstrung by the idea that if someone does FTTP/O in Central London for 500GBP per premises passed they should automatically be rolling it out in the backside of nowhere at 5000GBP per premises passed as it's all unfair, digital divide, etc, etc.
Government subsidy is certainly directly required to server some areas, however at least 20% of the UK is commercially viable for FTTP without even any government intervention, well beyond not taxing the fibre of course.
its like where a 3rd world country.. the only reason where so crap is that ISP's dont put no money into the technology
Speedtest results are hardly an indication of real speed, most people use it to diagnose problems etc.
The UK is however still far behind many other nations as only 8% of users have access to 5Mb or higher, compared to 20% worldwide. Although BT's FTTx will up the UK into the top 20, prehaps a little late mind.
source: here (http://www.broadbandgenie.co.uk/broadband-news/average-worldwide-broadband-speed-estimated) and here (http://www.broadbandgenie.co.uk/broadband-news/top-20-super-fast-fibre-optic-broadband-countries-revealed)
cook1984
03-04-2009, 21:31
Yes, our cities are densely populated, especially London. People moaning about their lack of broadband speed ougt to consider how much it would cost to dig up streets to lay the fibre optics they crave for their personal pr0n access ... and then not expect to pay anything like near it's true value.
Wrong. We have these things called pipes, which you can run cable down. Companies don't lay cable, they lay a pipe and put cable in it. That protects the cable and allows them to add more later on.
Also, VM already have fibre to the street level, they would just have to extend it to the house in the same way they lay their current copper cable.
You don't even have to lay cable underground - in Japan they often just attach the fibre to telephone poles.
A majority of those that complain about internet speeds use entertainment as the driving force saying that's why we need faster net access. It's like a car, I'd like a nice flash, fast BMW but I don't need one. The car I have now does the job.
Wrong. We do need faster access. Our economy has changed from one based on manufacturing to one based on services. The internet delivers those services.
It's similar to how we need motorways, not just because driving fast is fun but because they are vital infrastructure.
Even to suggest that entertainment isn't important is clearly silly. It's a huge part of our economy.
Other governments have realised this. That is why Japan and Korea are investing so much in their networks - they know it is the future. Consider how now we want HDTV, virtually all of the technology comes from Japanese (Sony, Panasonic, Philips, NEC etc) or Korean (Samsung etc) manufacturers. Look at mobile phones - we got iMode last year, 9 years after it launched in Japan and who do you think supplied the technology, owns the patents etc? If we want to be a player in the 21st century, we need the infrastructure to support the innovation that will get us there.
I know we live in a "MUST HAVE IT NOW" society but sometimes you have to wait.
Maybe that's why we can't even lay a flat road surface, and when we eventually do it won't be using British technology to do it. All aboard the failboat HMS Britannia.
Wrong. We have these things called pipes, which you can run cable down. Companies don't lay cable, they lay a pipe and put cable in it. That protects the cable and allows them to add more later on.
Also, VM already have fibre to the street level, they would just have to extend it to the house in the same way they lay their current copper cable.
You don't even have to lay cable underground - in Japan they often just attach the fibre to telephone poles.
Wrong. We do need faster access. Our economy has changed from one based on manufacturing to one based on services. The internet delivers those services.
It's similar to how we need motorways, not just because driving fast is fun but because they are vital infrastructure.
Even to suggest that entertainment isn't important is clearly silly. It's a huge part of our economy.
Other governments have realised this. That is why Japan and Korea are investing so much in their networks - they know it is the future. Consider how now we want HDTV, virtually all of the technology comes from Japanese (Sony, Panasonic, Philips, NEC etc) or Korean (Samsung etc) manufacturers. Look at mobile phones - we got iMode last year, 9 years after it launched in Japan and who do you think supplied the technology, owns the patents etc? If we want to be a player in the 21st century, we need the infrastructure to support the innovation that will get us there.
Maybe that's why we can't even lay a flat road surface, and when we eventually do it won't be using British technology to do it. All aboard the failboat HMS Britannia.
agree with you totally
virtually all of the technology comes from Japanese (Sony, Panasonic, Philips, NEC etc) or Korean (Samsung etc) manufacturers.
wrong. Philips are Dutch, rather than Japanese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips
We don't NEED super fast connections all over the country to our homes, especially not using entertainment as the main thrust of the argument. Now that is silly. What we need is a solid infrastructure that allows a majority of the population to have say a 5mb connection. We certainly do NOT all need screaming fast lines. If people want to pay a premium then they can. You want to go faster? You pay for it.
I wouldn't have liked to have lived in my village when NTL were digging up all the roads to put in pipes / cables whatever. It must have been a nightmare and cost a fortune but I'm lucky they did. To do the same all over the country just so people can get HD TV or be able file-share / get pR0n quicker would be financial suicide.
Who cares if the Japanese / Koreans are first? They always have been with tech! And the comment "Consider how now we want HDTV" - no use to me! My Mrs won't let me swap the damn reliable Sony 32in CRT for a HD ready one as we don't NEED one. I might want to watch HD content but until the Sony breaks I'll stay on standard defintion. Just because kiddies jump on the latest mobile / HD / TV / i-Pod (Yuk) / Blu-Ray bandwagon, doesn't mean that the rest of the population does the same. Most of us are still using CRT's so HD is not an option anyway! Besides, after years of building this DVD collection, I ain't falling for that one and buying everything again on Blu Ray etc.
Faster internet links, at least the ones the moaners are after, are a fantasy. The country, Government and ISP's have got bigger things to think about chucking money into faster net connections.
it seems people cant grasp the fact its nothing as trivial as trying to force people to upgrade their old tv's, or moaners, or whatever fantasy you might attribute to this massive (world) IP infrastructure focused move .....
it is about the UK Govt backing this...infact placing all their UK PLC bets on it for a while now.
http://www.revaluingconstruction.scpm.salford.ac.uk/content/view/76/
"....
UK government to encourage innovation in the service economy
The Government is taking a fresh look at the changing global services industry and how it can support innovation by British businesses, in a new report published today, 27th August 2008.
The Government will work with other organisations including the Technology Strategy Board and British Standards Institute to improve the capacity of businesses to innovate across a range of industries covering retail, construction, logistics, internet services and environmental services.
Business Minister Shriti Vadera said: ”The service economy is now worth £1 trillion to the economy. The UK is a world leader in many areas of the services sector such as design engineering, architecture and environmental consultancy. We want to secure the UK’s position as a global hub for innovative services by building on our business support programmes, developing a skilled workforce and ensuring our communications infrastructure is improving service delivery.”
Innovation Minister Ian Pearson said: ”The Innovation White Paper we published in March set out a number of practical measures to make the UK the best place in the world to run an innovative business, public service or third-sector organisation. We are helping to create the conditions for innovation to .....
"
"....
Notes to editors
The ‘Supporting Innovation in Services’ report is available at http://www.berr.gov.uk/sectors/innovationinservices/index.html (http://www.berr.gov.uk/sectors/innovationinservices/index.html)
The supporting industry research, commissioned by NESTA, is available at www.nesta.org.uk/understanding-innovation/ (http://www.nesta.org.uk/understanding-innovation/)
The ‘Supporting Innovation in Services’ report is the result of a joint initiative announced in summer 2007 by Alistair Darling, then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, and Jonathan Kestenbaum Chief Executive Officer of NESTA, that their organisations would work in partnership to look at how Government might stimulate and support innovation in the services sectors.
The £1 trillion value on the service sector is a provisional estimate for 2007 provided by ONS to Eurostat, and excludes the Financial Services Intermediation Services (FISIM) adjustment.
The report is based on a consultation of business in five sectors of the economy to develop a better understanding of what is driving innovation in service sectors, how innovation is developed and managed by leading businesses, the barriers to innovation and the role Government might play in improving the UK environment for innovation in services.
The ‘Supporting Innovation in Services’ report focuses on business innovation on services. It complements the recent Public Services Industries Review, a review by Dr DeAnne Julius, published by BERR in July 2008, which considered private and third sector delivery of public services and considered addressed innovation in the context of the public sector. www.berr.gov.uk/files/file46965.pdf (http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file46965.pdf)
The White Paper “Innovation Nation”, published by DIUS in March 2008, may be viewed at www.dius.gov.uk/publications/innovation-nation.html (http://www.dius.gov.uk/publications/innovation-nation.html)
NESTA has partnered BERR on the Innovation in Services project. NESTA is the largest single UK endowment devoted exclusively to supporting talent, innovation and creativity in the UK. Its mission is to transform the UK's capacity for innovation. It invests in early stage companies, inform innovation policy and encourage a culture which supports innovation. www.nesta.org.uk/ (http://www.nesta.org.uk/) ..."
the few moaners:.....
http://www.myfinances.co.uk/news/household-bills/household/broadband-prices/half-broadband-users-dissatisfied-$1283271.htm
"
Half broadband users dissatisfied
Friday, 27 Mar 2009 09:07
Despite lower monthly costs and an increased range of options, 42 per cent of broadband customers are not satisfied with the service they receive.
Broadband bills have dropped five per cent over the last 12 months but some 6.3 million people are still unsatisfied with their service the 2009 Broadband Customer Satisfaction Report by uSwitch.com (http://www.myfinances.co.uk/news/household-bills/household/broadband-prices/www.uSwitch.com)has found.
...
"
"http://www.macworld.co.uk/digitallifestyle/news/index.cfm?newsid=24718&pagtype=allchandate
The UK government (http://www.direct.gob.uk/) has unveiled a bold plan to help the country move out of recession as part of a wide ranging ‘Digital Britain’ report (PDF (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/29_01_09digital_britain_interimreport.pdf)).
The full report compiled by Lord Carter for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport (http://www.culture.gov.uk/) is due in the summer but interim findings were released today.
http://media.macworld.co.uk/cmsdata/news/24718/DigitalBritain200.jpg
The 22 recommendations in the interim report examined both broadcasting and the UK's digital infrastructure.
....
Secretary of state Andy Burnham told the Commons that broadband would become a necessary public service, similar using the telephone or postal service. ...."
one things perfectly clear, all the Govt departments heads are all behind this massive push even if they dont understand the tech or the real benefits of overbuilding for the long term future, rather than the next quarters spread sheets returns.
they didnt use the good finantial years to mandate managed structured municipal generic conduit, to be placed inside each and every single road works,gas works,electric and so on ...,so building a public owned conduit that could be surface filled, built up, and rented out over time for any 3rd party or council to fill with fibre,cable,and advanced wireless/Wimax nodes etc, so they have a very long way to go now to catch up for the long term growth OC....
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/03/18/235314/recession-broadband-will-save-the-uk-economy.htm
"...
Recession: broadband will save the UK economy
Author: Cliff Saran (http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/03/18/authors/articleauthor.aspx?liArticleID=235314) Posted: 15:49 18 Mar 2009 Topics: Network Infrastructure (http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/03/18/Home/RefinedSearch.aspx?cat=IT%2fNetworking%2fNetwork+I nfrastructure&key=Network+Infrastructure&ct=NewsAndBlogs&sort=Relevance&ft=0)
Ofcom chief executive Ed Richards Ofcom, believes telecommunications will play a fundamental role in the UK's recovery from the recession.
Speaking at the London School of Economics, he said the political mainstream considers telecoms infrastructure to be critical to the 21st century economy.
"This is a topic no longer the preserve of physicists, engineers and economists. I would argue that no self respecting political leader can avoid having the digital economy as part of their plan for the future," he said.
Richards said UK and EU telecoms companies in Europe had been toughened up by several years of competition, which could given them an advantage compared to the rest of the world. "This is an advantage for both the telecoms industry as a whole, and almost the entire economy." ...
"
one final point, theres a reason the whole worlds infrastructure is moving to the digital wired and wireless IP and away from antiquated analogue systems, theres going to be no real choice as the airwaves get sold off and used up, analogue just cant cope with the dataflows in eather wired or wireless today, never mind the near future, and Ip is by far the cheaper world option as its been proven in the world internet field as a good compromise of cost V complexity.....
Ignitionnet
04-04-2009, 13:10
Ed Richards is, purely my opinion, an industry shill who blows sunshine up our backsides but does very little to actually progress things within the UK. The most significant developments in UK broadband access are coming from Brussels, not Ofcom.
Ofcom are the agency who told BT that they can charge as they see fit for access to their obsoleted already 'next generation' infrastructure.
Ofcom witter on about how broadband will save the world and are doing nothing to actually progress it. The UK government witter on about broadband while taxing every kilometre of fibre that's lit in the UK.
Neither Richards nor the UK government understand what they are dealing with and neither want to make the tough decisions to actually force things to progress properly. Thanks to Richards' and Ofcom's policies the UK has hundreds of ISPs offering mediocrity but fundamentally only 50% of the UK actually has infrastructure level competition and that is between a cosy duopoly who despite their loud PR noises both spend the bare minimums to give the appearance that they have any interest in serious competition with one another.
That Richards has the nerve to compare the UK to other EU and Far East countries and describe us as having any advantages is laughable. Both Ofcom and the Government make all the right noises but neither is doing anything to push broadband along, and while he is spouting his political nonsense and giving BT / VM a free ride other countries are building or have built those fibre optic networks that BT say we don't need and that he says the Government shouldn't get involved in.
Yes I dislike Richards, he's a telecomms industry slut and chief executive of a toothless regulator who are a waste of tax payer's money with regards to next generation broadband. If he actually had some testicles he would be pushing the government to drop the fibre tax and offer the incentives to companies in order to push the digital economy forwards.
Sadly Richards' idea of the digital economy is that so long as you can download at 'up to' 2Mbps (no upload requirement of course) and access government web pages it's all good.
If you want to see how Richards', Ofcom's and the government's digital economy vision has left us behind, despite BT being 'toughened up by several years of competition' here's a web page a guy made when he was getting his second fibre line installed to his home, a dedicated link for the websites he hosts.
http://www.dannychoo.com/adp/eng/1653/Japan+Optic+Fiber+Internet.html
EDIT: Yes it's being strung over poles, however the Amsterdam FTTO deployment is not and is surprising the world with how relatively cheaply it is being deployed thanks to intelligent use of existing ducting and intelligent deployment of new ducting to minimalise costs. Of course here in the UK we don't do minimalising of costs, money grabbing company employs money grabbing contractor who employ money grabbing sub-contractor who do a poor, overbudget and very belated job. Not much choice as when you actually ask them to be something like efficient they panic and go bankrupt as they've no idea how to actually do their jobs without double and triple dipping into the employer's pocket.
Costs wise that guy is getting that 'up to' 100Mbit for less than 7 quid a month for a year. Businesses can get an assured 1Gbps for less than 270GBP a month, which won't get you symmetrical 2Mbps in the UK.
Meanwhile here in the UK where our politicians and the politician who pretends to be the chief exec of the regulator tell us how vital the 'digital economy' is what's the best you can get unless you live in one of a few tower blocks? 50 down, 1.5 up. Try hosting anything apart from a Gopher server on that.
We want to be able to charge as we please for Fibre To The Cabinet access, yep that technology that several countries didn't bother with and those that did for the most part deployed years ago, and to control the levels of service ISPs can deliver through it else we won't build. You can have fibre to homes when we feel like it, tough luck that various other places are building or have built it, this is Britain.
Yes sir Mr BT sir! So long as we have hundreds of ISPs reselling the same rubbish and can portray ourselves as competitive still it's all good!
The correct answer is, of course, to split BT Openreach who actually do the building from the rest of BT, give them appropriate incentives to build such as a regulated return and an accelerated rates of write offs on old investments plus permission to replace copper totally once fibre is deployed, then to have them build an FTTO dark fibre network where it's commercially wise so that operators can deploy any service neutrally.
Follow that up with FTTC where FTTO isn't viable and encourage local regions to club together and use Openreach and/or other companies to deploy their own community networks.
This can be cheapened somewhat by requiring Virgin Media and any other operators to allow regulated access to ducting where fibre construction is happening and of course stop taxing ducting and fibre.
Thing is this isn't politically expedient so Ofcom won't touch it. Rather pointless regulator really when politics is more important than the things they are supposed to regulate.
Rant over and apologies but Ed Richards winds me up, he waffled like a maniac when I asked him a couple of questions and is a total waste of space on this issue who appears more interested in PR for UK PLC than actually getting anything done. We appear to have a now sadly ongoing culture in the UK of failing and going into denial about it with this just being yet another example. We look down on socialist Europe for using public funds while having tax rates nudging theirs and look across to the US model knowing we can't follow it because our companies either can't or won't spend the money having neither the vision nor the appetite for risk so sit in between accomplishing nothing.
cook1984
04-04-2009, 18:31
wrong. Philips are Dutch, rather than Japanese.
Apologies, I meant to say Pioneer.
---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------
We don't NEED super fast connections all over the country to our homes, especially not using entertainment as the main thrust of the argument. Now that is silly. What we need is a solid infrastructure that allows a majority of the population to have say a 5mb connection. We certainly do NOT all need screaming fast lines. If people want to pay a premium then they can. You want to go faster? You pay for it.
Remember how when Sky first started there were not many channels? Once Sky become more popular and cable TV came in as well, more appeared. Freeview helped even more find a market for themselves.
If you only aim for 5mb, you can't really expect services like internet TV to take off. 5mb wouldn't provide a very good quality stream, and certainly not two at a time.
Also, you have to remember that fibre optic broadband (real fibre, not the copper VM network) is a totally different level of service. An entire household can easily use it, and one person watching a HD video stream or downloading something won't stop someone else using VOIP or gaming.
This sort of thing is happening, right now, and we are missing out. My friend was showing me how she can record things on her PVR at home and then watching them on her mobile phone on the train journey to work streaming over the internet. She can get HD movies on demand too.
I wouldn't have liked to have lived in my village when NTL were digging up all the roads to put in pipes / cables whatever. It must have been a nightmare and cost a fortune but I'm lucky they did. To do the same all over the country just so people can get HD TV or be able file-share / get pR0n quicker would be financial suicide.
Interestingly enough one of the main reasons people used to get cable was for the porn. Sounds like a pretty solid business model to be.
Actually, it wasn't that bad when the dug the roads up. Well, not the roads exactly, the pavements in fact. They also replaced all broken paving slabs they lifted too, so my road actually got a bit nicer. Now the pipes are there there would be no need to do it again.
Also, in Bournmouth they are laying a fibre network in the sewers. It's been done elsewhere too.
Laying a fibre network would be a brilliant idea. Fibre is going to be the medium of choice for at least the next 50 years, if not longer. The real problem is the uncertain regulatory structure and the danger that if someone did it VM would quickly replace their copper network with fibre too, since for them it would only involve changing the line from the cabinet to the home.
My Mrs won't let me swap the damn reliable Sony 32in CRT for a HD ready one as we don't NEED one.
I honestly think this is the reason that Brits are miserable. Quality of life means nothing, it's all about hoarding and saving every penny, making do and moaning a lot.
Some of us enjoy the little pleasures in life. HDTV, a nice hifi, a car that is more than just a box for moving one's self from A to B. Then again, just look at cars - automatic transmissions are extra where as in most developed countries they are standard.
Every building over two stories in Japan has a lift. They don't all need lifts, people could climb the stairs, but they have them anyway. Every building has air conditioning too. It's about quality of life.
I might want to watch HD content but until the Sony breaks I'll stay on standard defintion.
And when it does eventually break, and you need a 32" plus TV for your living room and find that even the cheaper sets are "HD ready", I expect you will buy it and plug it into your old coat-hanger, then moan when they switch off analogue and then moan some more about how you don't want HD anyway and never use the "red button" and what happened to teletext and why did they ever decimalise money and oh we had nothing back then but we where happy...
[quote[Just because kiddies jump on the latest mobile / HD / TV / i-Pod (Yuk) / Blu-Ray bandwagon, doesn't mean that the rest of the population does the same.[/quote]
One thing that always strikes me about Japan is how everyone, young and old, has a mobile phone. For some reason older people here seem to be afraid of new technology, and unable to grasp it's potential benefits.
It's a shame we are a bunch of Luddites.
idontpirate
05-04-2009, 12:02
1) The UK isn't behind were just scammers. Alot of people in the uk can't afford a really high speed internet connection. Infact, most houses in the UK have 2meg because they dont need or cant afford it.
2) You do realise that people from other countries may be running tests from hosted machines in datacenters. So the results ARE inaccurate.
3) A 20meg connection in another country would cost about £10 with no limits or strings attached. Whereas virgin give you 20meg for £30 a month (AND OH WAIT, the smallprint reads £35 a month after that).
4) The uk is less populated than other countries. Look at us compared to the size of germany or other countries.
Ignitionnet
05-04-2009, 12:35
1) The UK isn't behind were just scammers. Alot of people in the uk can't afford a really high speed internet connection. Infact, most houses in the UK have 2meg because they dont need or cant afford it.
Fair enough. Refer to your own point 3.
2) You do realise that people from other countries may be running tests from hosted machines in datacenters. So the results ARE inaccurate.
You do realise that that probably happens here every bit as much as well, so it all evens out. The rest of the world is not mysteriously scamming speed test results to make us look bad.
3) A 20meg connection in another country would cost about £10 with no limits or strings attached. Whereas virgin give you 20meg for £30 a month (AND OH WAIT, the smallprint reads £35 a month after that).
Depends on the country really. Our cost of living is ridiculous and our internet access overly expensive due to the VM / BT duopoly over infrastructure. It should be remembered that internet access costs should be proportional to purchasing power parity.
4) The uk is less populated than other countries. Look at us compared to the size of germany or other countries.
Erm it's nothing to do with total population or land mass, quite the opposite actually. It's about population density and the UK is far more densely populated than Germany, France or indeed any other country in Europe apart from Belgium or The Netherlands.
In fact England is more densely populated than Japan and London is the most populous city in Europe which rather blows away that standard excuse trotted out whenever UK broadband is commented on.
uk connections are amazing compared to cyprus im on 2mbit adsl and we have up to 10mbit on cable which is not available here. id be very happy with uk internet atm 50mbit :O i would never need or want faster
Ignitionnet
05-04-2009, 20:41
uk connections are amazing compared to cyprus im on 2mbit adsl and we have up to 10mbit on cable which is not available here. id be very happy with uk internet atm 50mbit :O i would never need or want faster
You aren't a stop off point for nearly half the trans-atlantic fibre connections and don't have the 3rd busiest internet exchange in the world though.
cook1984
05-04-2009, 20:48
Depends on the country really. Our cost of living is ridiculous and our internet access overly expensive due to the VM / BT duopoly over infrastructure. It should be remembered that internet access costs should be proportional to purchasing power parity.
I don't think it's quite as simple as that. There has been a bit of a "race to the bottom" price war lately, but the problem is that the field is totally uneven.
VM are basically the only people who can offer high speed broadband. Okay, ADSL2 gets it to a lucky few but for more people 10 meg is the best they will ever see on it, and for plain ADSL it's 3mb average. Plus, if you use BT's lines, you are forced to pay what they demand, making competitive pricing impossible.
Our phone network is old. Many other countries upgraded theirs, which is why in Japan and many European countries you can get up to 50mb on ADSL2.
That's why I keep saying that the government needs to push open access fibre. It's the only way we will ever move forwards at the speed we need to.
Otherwise it will just be a case of waiting for BT to lay their fibre, which will take decades to reach the whole country and create a massive digital divide. The inevitable silly pricing will prevent it's true potential being reached at first anyway.
well with a population of less then a million...no :).. but whats that got to do with the sweet uk internet speeds that virgin offer?
Ignitionnet
05-04-2009, 21:09
well with a population of less then a million...no :).. but whats that got to do with the sweet uk internet speeds that virgin offer?
There's nothing sweet about them really, and it has rather a lot to do with it.
You guys probably have quite poor connectivity to the rest of the world which makes providing service quite expensive, we don't - it's less than a fiver a Mbit/sec/month.
Add to that relative wealth, demographics, economy, etc.
Which part of Nicosia are you in? Seems to be quite a large difference between the Greek and Turkish bits too.
well the north wich is the invaded north everything re routs through turkey because the north is under occupation by turks so they rely 100% on turkey for everything telephone internet..etc
I am in the south (greek)side in a village but i have 2mbits and people in larger populated areas can have 10mbit down and 1mbit up with cable @ 99 euro a month or i could get 4mbit for 35 euro a month is the best i could get and other adsl isps have 8mbit but very expenssive i think 95 euro near there per month...
24mbit/50mbit cant be bad. people are exited over 2mbit connections here...^^ id be very happy with uk connections, even though adsl in uk for me was very bad, but virgin media was sweet a whole summer of 20mbit cable :D
i would say English isent behind but isent at the front there with swedish 100mbit and whatever connections fast connections they have with a matching upload with fibre. it could be worse for uk but its not at all bad.
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/DOC-30-In-Japan-60-for-160Mbps-101740
"DOC 3.0 In Japan: $60 for 160Mbps
CEO says service only cost them $20 per home passed...
11:09AM Monday Apr 06 2009 by Karl Bode (http://www.dslreports.com/useremail/u/141383)
Saul Hansell at the New York Times talks with (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/the-cost-to-offer-the-worlds-fastest-broadband-20-per-home/) Michael Fries, the CEO of Liberty Global, whose subsidiary J:Com we mentioned last week (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/101612) was one of the first to offer 160Mbps DOCSIS 3.0 -- and bonded upstream speeds. Fries says the upgrade to DOC 3.0 was about $20 per home passed..."
"Users pay about 6,000 yen ($60) per month for the 160Mbps tier in Japan, while in the Netherlands the company charges 80 euros ($107) for 120 Mbps and 60 euros ($81) for 60 Mbps.
Fries argues that fear is why some carriers (like Time Warner Cable (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Time-Warner-Cable-Expands-Metered-Billing-101655)) have been slow to upgrade, despite the relatively inexpensive cost per home passed:..."
In what he's calling "the single biggest infrastructure decision" in the country's history," Australia Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's announced an A$43 billion (US $30.6 billion) project to create a nationwide high speed broadband network. The goal's to get 90 percent of homes and business up to 100Mbps speeds with fiber optic connection, with a less impressive 12Mbps wireless / satellite for the rest. Up to 49 percent of the funds will be from the private sector; the government will initially invest A$4.7b, while A$20b will come from a national infrastructure fund and the sale of bonds. The venture's expected to take seven to eight years, and Rudd said the government intends to sell off its stake after five years. Sure, it's not 1Gbps by 2012, but hey, they might end up beating us at the "nationwide broadband" game.
*sloman*
07-04-2009, 11:38
I would pay £40-50pm for non-STM 20MB
I would pay £40-50pm for non-STM 20MB
On top of TV and phone? I wouldn't no stm would mean more slow down in peak times?
Ignitionnet
07-04-2009, 12:23
Yes the Australian stuff is funny. Another of our competitors putting hands into pockets to push things along as Richards and Carter don't want the government here to do. It'd be a productive use of tax payer's money you see and we really really want to be the USA junior, capitalism all the way, which is funny as even they are spending tax payer money on broadband and as we know no British company has the desire to spend the required.
cook1984
09-04-2009, 00:34
When motorways first opened, people moaned about the cost and how no-one wanted to drive that fast anyway. At the time most family cars struggled to do 50mph anyway. Most freight was taken by rail.
Now our economy could not do without them. Between commercial vehicles and people commuting or just travelling for business, they are a vital part of our infrastructure.
Broadband is no different.
just having come from gatwick airport to a hotel in cambridge this virgin media connection is like heaven compared to my home connection
Guys, don't give up - push for fiber, forget the "broadband"...an be happy that you live in UK...
http://www.pon.bg/
59.90 BGN (27 GBP) for D:100Mbps / U:40Mbps no traffic cap. It's just that the government in Bulgaria is corrupt, the healthcare sucks, the road potwholes are huge etc.
1) The UK isn't behind were just scammers. Alot of people in the uk can't afford a really high speed internet connection. Infact, most houses in the UK have 2meg because they dont need or cant afford it.
2) You do realise that people from other countries may be running tests from hosted machines in datacenters. So the results ARE inaccurate.
3) A 20meg connection in another country would cost about £10 with no limits or strings attached. Whereas virgin give you 20meg for £30 a month (AND OH WAIT, the smallprint reads £35 a month after that).
4) The uk is less populated than other countries. Look at us compared to the size of germany or other countries.
That is definately right! Not everyone needs it,however, Virgin Media could rollout 100MB and 200MB in particular areas such as Business districts. These areas should include:
Camden
Islington&Hackney
Harringey
Enfield
Brent
Canary Wharf
Westminster
Lambeth
Southwark
Hammersmith&Fulham
Harrow
Hillingdon
Ealing
Hounslow
Watford
Barnet
St Albans
Hemel Hempstead
Greater Manchester
Northern and Central Glasgow
central Edinburgh
Motherwell
Livingstone
Newcastle
Leeds
Liverpool
Cardiff
Bristol
Exeter
Belfast City
Portsmouth
Bournemouth
Birmingham
Leicester
Tamworth
Burton-on-trent
Preston
Trowbridge
Newbury
Slough
Norwich
Brighton
Crawley
Those areas contain a high number of businesses which will benefit from superfast and High speed broadband of 20MB or more.
A broadcasting and media group based in the Borough of Westminster could not communicate with its contacts in Central Europe because BT's internet only goes to 6MB. Virgin Media also leases some parts of the ex-BT Cable TV network in the westminster area, NTL launched Cable Broadband in 2004 to some parts of this area, I suppose Virgin and BT could share that and provide the borough with better broadband, I wonder what the maximum speed is for broadband on the Ex-BT cable franchises.
The main speed which most people get is 2MB, as thats what ADSL providers can only offer on most lines, other reasons for this is because most people cant afford higher speeds.
Hutchison 3G is the most advanced mobile internet provider in the UK and under its 3G coverage which covers 90% of the UK, speeds are quite high, however with 2.5G coverage,your looking at 200K or less.
Hutchison Whampoa's intentions were to become leaders of 3G services such as Mobile internet and Video Calling and this is currently the case, therefore, this could result in the goverment giving them pressure about internet speeds,as they are market leaders in the 3G market, they could be required to open up there network. That way, the other networks can integrate with it and provide 99% 3G coverage.
There was talk in merging Hutchison 3G's network with T-Mobile 3G,however,this may not work successfully as Hutchison are already working with Orange as a national roaming partner.
419, perhaps you keep missing the ever gowing Wimax Mobile Internet news to date?,
Mobile WiMax is by far the better long term option than any 2.5G/3G coverage, WiMax is the only real consumer high Mbit/s rated last mile for always on, long reach, wireless net in the UK, take a look at whats available off the shelf right now in the US.
http://www.dailywireless.org/2009/04/08/eye-fis-4-gb-card-shipping/
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/04/2.jpg?v=0
http://www.clear.com/clear_spot.php
"
Clear Spot™
Clear Spot creates a fully portable, secure Wi-Fi network from your activated Clear USB modem anywhere within the Clear WiMAX coverage area. Share your connection with up to 8 Wi-Fi enabled devices. Never search for a hotspot again, take it with you wherever you go...."
and keep in mind we already have one company doing the old fixed Wimax in the west Manchester area, soon enough if the new mobile Wimax companies can get a look in, and actually afford to buy up some of the freed analogue feqs before the Mobile Phones companies do, then perhaps we might start seeing some real innovative options open up.
hell, even VM could start their own Wimax/Wifi 11N program and become rent boys like SKY ;) , and rent some Wimax spectrum off someone.....!, perhaps even renting off Sky if they do indeed buy some freq in the great and good UK "Analogue sell off" coming to a UK regulator near you soon.
VM then simply string up some of the BelAir100SX (http://www.belairnetworks.com/products/index.cfm/intProductID/17), the industry’s first dual mode WiMAX/WiFi wireless node optimized for deployment on existing cable infrastructure. http://www.dailywireless.org/2009/04/02/cablevision-1-million-served-wifi/
http://www.belairnetworks.com/images/products/BelAir100s%20small.jpg
and simply plug these into their existing FTTC, both inside and at the farest edges of their current Fibre cable coverage etc.
its not clear if they have DS3 4x4/8x4 CM modems in there yet , i dont think they do, as i cant find anything DS3 certified as yet, but a new DS3 8x4 bonding model shouldnt be so hard to do soon enough.
then build on that and the potential new markets of things like the The Samsung Mondi (http://www.samsungusanews.com/2009/03/samsung-mobile-launches-first-wimax-enabled-mobile-internet-device/) supports WiMAX
http://www.dailywireless.org/2009/04/03/new-samsung-phones-at-ctia/
and OC the new http://www.dailywireless.org/2009/04/06/iphone-80211n/
http://www.dailywireless.org/2009/04/06/cable-broadband-bad/
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/04/3.jpg?v=0
http://www.cedmagazine.com/uploadedImages/Ced/0508-DOCSIS-Fig1.gif
a simple 8x4 DS3 should be able to cover quite a few average users per deployed BelAir100SX (http://www.belairnetworks.com/products/index.cfm/intProductID/17), with a new DS3 modem inside and more than cover the VM costs compaired to installing wired infrastructure to new area's , then VM only put in the bulk of real FTTC/H after that area's been proven to have a demand for real BB instance, or they simply move the Wimax kit to another area and try it again.....
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/04/4.jpg?v=0
but alas we are talking about VM here, so they wont do it to be innovative and try the New markets no matter what Neil says....
nicolodeon
12-04-2009, 14:00
I'm bothered with the lack of lateral thinking in these forums, its pretty easy tbh..... You've got a toilet right? With most of the internet being poo anyways, then why not run cable down the sewers? Uses existing infrastructure, couple of dirty ROVs and internet in your bog! rofl... cmon, A Telecom company wanted to wire the UK HV Grid (400kv) with fibre wrapped around the cables..... mmmm went bust...... why?? Remember the squariel? Was actually better technology than existing satellite at the time, smaller footprint dish...... I could go on to name a few and more, but I was aware of the ADSL iPlate at least 6 years ago....
At the end of the day, who's gonna tamper with a cabinet if its in a poo pipe...? rofl
As seen in postings here, there is less political will to complete large infrastructure investments in this country... There is a constraint for a reason... go figure.... rofl...
I honestly think this is the reason that Brits are miserable. Quality of life means nothing, it's all about hoarding and saving every penny, making do and moaning a lot.
And when it does eventually break, and you need a 32" plus TV for your living room and find that even the cheaper sets are "HD ready", I expect you will buy it and plug it into your old coat-hanger, then moan when they switch off analogue and then moan some more about how you don't want HD anyway and never use the "red button" and what happened to teletext and why did they ever decimalise money and oh we had nothing back then but we where happy...
It's a shame we are a bunch of Luddites.
Maybe one day when you're all grown up and you've managed to cut the umbilical cord from Mommys apron strings you'lll realise that life in the real world is somewhat different.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/04/47.jpg
Having a mortgage, 3 kids, food, utility, council tax and other bills take their toll. Then factor into the mix the very real threat of redundancy and then where should our priorities lie? A new HD TV just so I can keep with everyone else or shall we bank that money in case it keeps the roof over our head for an extra month if I lose my job?
Ignitionnet
12-04-2009, 16:15
Guys, don't give up - push for fiber, forget the "broadband"...an be happy that you live in UK...
http://www.pon.bg/
59.90 BGN (27 GBP) for D:100Mbps / U:40Mbps no traffic cap. It's just that the government in Bulgaria is corrupt, the healthcare sucks, the road potwholes are huge etc.
Which makes it all the more embarrassing that they have that service and we don't to be honest. If this corrupt, unhealthy state with such a poor quality of life can manage this is it not disconcerting that it hasn't happened in the UK?
Mick Fisher
12-04-2009, 16:40
Which makes it all the more embarrassing that they have that service and we don't to be honest. If this corrupt, unhealthy state with such a poor quality of life can manage this is it not disconcerting that it hasn't happened in the UK?
Oooops! Thought you were speaking of the UK there for a bit. :D
Ignitionnet
12-04-2009, 18:13
This might be interesting: http://www.edges-grid.eu:8080/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=29093&folderId=32559&name=DLFE-1201.pdf
Part of the process is a fibre deployment: http://fibertomyalmerehome.blogspot.com/
http://buziaulane.blogspot.com/2009_03_04_archive.html
telfordcable
12-04-2009, 21:22
It funny cos I went to this college: http://www.tcat.ac.uk/access/index.php and use their internet while I was studies ECDL and were shocked myself that the speed of download is 67Mbps and upload is 45Mbps ! That's pretty fast in uk and fastest than Virgin current 50Mbps.
That's because it's on JANET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET)
The University I work at has multiple 1GB links in/out.
telfordcable
12-04-2009, 21:33
oh it not fair (only for school and college) it appear that our uk government spend our taxes toward their network higher speed. And the government doesn't care about the residential homes for the future fibre optic broadband in whole nationwide of uk and never will do.
cook1984
13-04-2009, 00:14
Having a mortgage, 3 kids, food, utility, council tax and other bills take their toll. Then factor into the mix the very real threat of redundancy and then where should our priorities lie? A new HD TV just so I can keep with everyone else or shall we bank that money in case it keeps the roof over our head for an extra month if I lose my job?
*sigh* This is exactly what is wrong with this country.
Why do you insist on being miserable, seeing life as a joyless grind where every penny has to be scrimped and saved? Does quality of life mean nothing to you?
The worst thing is that you are wrong, but still live your meagre life based on those falsehoods. If you do loose your job, the benefits cover the mortgage and council tax, so you won't be out on the street. If you are struggling that much, you took on too much and basically failed at life. On top of all that, I'm not a teenager, not by a long way, so even your insult was based on a false assumption.
Presumably you are the type of person who never goes on holiday, never buys anything unless it is essential or the old one is broken, never goes to the cinema, never eats out, sews up the holes in his socks and always buys supermarket own-brand 9p a tin baked beans. Your life must be a living nightmare.
Unfortunately, you are hardly alone, which is probably why we are so far behind other developed countries in terms of quality of life and general happiness.
Presumably you are the type of person who never goes on holiday, never buys anything unless it is essential or the old one is broken, never goes to the cinema, never eats out, sews up the holes in his socks and always buys supermarket own-brand 9p a tin baked beans. Your life must be a living nightmare.
ROFL!
3 holidays to Florida in the past 6 years (during school holidays so not cheap)
Weeks away in Wales on the inbetween years like this one
Family trips to Berlin, Prague, Paris, Hannover, London, Bristol and Belfast
2 cars, oldest of which is a 04 plate
Too many PC's / consoles to mention
But you're right about not eating out much, why should we after spending the best part of £20k on knocking our kitchen and dining room into one large kitchen / diner? No point in spending all that and NOT using it!
Oh ... and I only owe the £180 I spent on the credit card that I spent last month buying a netbook.
We're far from living in a nightmare, we live within our means which means we don't have to buy the latest gadgets just to keep up with da yoot of 2day.
Ignitionnet
13-04-2009, 10:48
I am completely lost Elsie. You discuss how frivolous cook was being and how it's more important to get food on the table, etc, etc then go on and discuss the above, a bucketload of discretionary spending, so I've no idea what your point is?
Can you clarify this for me as you seem to be exactly the sort of people he was not talking about, who don't mind at all spending the money for a higher quality of life? You seem to have thoroughly contradicted yourself with that first doom / gloom Victor Meldrew post then the above even going as far as discussing not buying the latest gadgets then mentioning the netbook you bought last month?
cook1984
13-04-2009, 21:02
I think Elsie has been caught out by his own trolling. Does this mean I win the internet?
*sloman*
13-04-2009, 21:12
The internet is yours my friend... now can you please sort out my UBR pic below!
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/04/41.jpg
Your tubes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes) look full.
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=175199&site=cdn&f_src=lightreading_sitedefault
"...
CableLabs snuck the certification results onto its Website on April 10 -- the Friday before Easter.
Within Wave 65, Cisco Systems Inc. (http://www.lightreading.com/complink_redirect.asp?vl_id=1131) (Nasdaq: CSCO (http://www.lightreading.com/quote.asp?Account=lightreading&Page=QUOTE&Ticker=CSCO)), Thomson (http://www.lightreading.com/complink_redirect.asp?vl_id=5593) (NYSE: TMS (http://www.lightreading.com/quote.asp?Account=lightreading&Page=QUOTE&Ticker=TMS); Euronext Paris: 18453), and Ubee Interactive (http://www.lightreading.com/complink_redirect.asp?vl_id=12052) (formerly Ambit Broadband) represent the first certifications for products using Broadcom's BCM3380, a modem chipset that can bond eight downstream channels and produce speeds of 320 Mbit/s. (See Broadcom Bonds Eight With Docsis 3.0 (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=170420&site=cdn), Broadcom: Sub-$50 Docsis 3.0 Modem in Sight (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=170448&site=cdn), and Ambit Renamed Ubee Interactive (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=172992&site=cdn).) ...
Before January, Broadcom had been relying on chips that could bond three downstream cable channels and couldn't bond upstream channels. (See Betting on Broadcom (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=148657&site=cdn)and Broadcom Shrugs Off Docsis 3.0 (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=159807&site=cdn).) These didn't count as Docsis 3.0, because the CableLabs specifications call for modems to bond at least four upstream and downstream channels.
That gave an opening to TI, which had a 4x4 chipset called Puma 5. (See TI Ships 1M Docsis 3.0 Chips (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=174697&site=cdn).) ..."
hmm Ambit rebranded to Ubee Interactive (http://www.lightreading.com/complink_redirect.asp?vl_id=12052) ,i wonder why!
does the current Virgin Media DS3 Ambit/Broadcom DS3 SOC use these Broadcom BCM3380 8x4 ?, i dont think so, are VM doing things on the cheap again ;) just like the Masses of Mpeg2 only STBs when the worlds OEM's were already selling cheap AVC+Mpeg2 DVB-C STB's, the VM bean counters win again in the short term .....
Casa Systems C2200 CMTS ** 58 Full
Casa Systems C3200 CMTS 58 Full
Casa Systems C10200 64 Full
Cisco uBR10012 56 Bronze
Motorola BSR64000 58 Bronze
as a reminder to readers, Bronze Certification means download channel Bonding ONLY, NO upstream Bonding, as you NEED upstream Bonding certification at both the CPE (your CM sat on your desk) end and the CMTS head ends for it to work.
Ignitionnet
15-04-2009, 09:48
Thought I'd mention, Ed Richards and Ofcom fellate themselves telling us how competitive the UK is while ignoring that it's basically BT with VM in about half the country.
VM also happily tell us about how they are constantly upgrading people, etc, etc.
UPC in The Netherlands do actually face competition, both from telco and fibre being deployed and it's pushed them to do the following upgrades, which happened 12/09/08, 1st Quarter 2009, and a further one to be complete by this summer, so all these within a year:
Speeds presented as Downstream/Upstream, please don't be confused, yes they have 512kbps upstream on the lightest 2M product :p:
UPC Internet Starter 384 Kbps / 128 Kbps->1 Mbps / 256 Kbps->2 Mbps / 256 Kbps->2 Mbps / 512 Kbps
UPC Internet Easy 1,5 Mbps / 256 Kbps->3 Mbps / 512 Kbps->6 Mbps / 1 Mbps->10 Mbps / 1 Mbps
UPC Internet Light 3 Mbps / 1 Mbps->8 Mbps / 1 Mbps->10 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps->16 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps
UPC Internet Power 6 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps->8 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps->10 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps->16 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps
Chello Classic - 12 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps->15 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps ->20 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps
The rumour mill also is ticking over that they will be doing upgrades of top tier customers to DOCSIS 3 products:
10 Mbps Internet 10 Mbps / 1,5 Mbps --> 30 Mbps / 3 Mbps (rumour)
16 Mbps Internet 16 Mbps / 2,0 Mbps --> 60 Mbps / 6 Mbps (rumour)
24 Mbps Internet 24 Mbps / 2,5 Mbps->25 Mbps / 2,5 Mbps -->120 Mbps / 10 Mbps (rumour)[/code]
These tiers are all uncapped, no STM, no shaping.
Seems they're not so good at updating the website, some of the tiers there are wrong, also some of these are 'old' tiers that have been obsoleted but still run. They haven't had a VM-type 'config crunch' so still run with some legacy tiers.
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