View Full Version : The existence of God
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 21:21
I'm not a deeply religious person, but I read a good story and wondered how others would take it. Forgive my ignorance if this is a well known story, but I'd not heard it before:
A man went to a barbershop to have his haircut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they
eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."
"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out
in the street to realize that, God doesn't exist. Tell me; if God exists,
would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?
If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a
loving God who would allow all of these things."
The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left
the shop.
Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long,
stringy, dirty hair and untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The
customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and he said to the
barber:
"You know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a
barber. And I just worked on you!"
"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like
that man outside."
"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to
me."
"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for
help.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."
I can see the point of the man who had his beard cut, but does this story not miss the point that the barber is only a man. whereas God is seen as omnipresent / omnipotent?
Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?
/runs away to paint the bedroom
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 21:25
lol
........I'm gonna sit this one out :angel::D
(sorry Bender, I just don't have the energy for another one of these):)
:D
Seriously, I am off upstairs with a paint brush right now. I'm happy to come back and have a go at this later though. In the meantime I can see the usual suspects circling, so I'll leave you all to it for now ... :wavey:
zing_deleted
18-03-2009, 21:26
you would need to go right back to the beginning when god gave man free will
Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?
Been :banghead: answered :banghead: countless :banghead: times :banghead: on :banghead: CF :banghead: in :banghead: the :banghead: past!!
Raistlin
18-03-2009, 21:28
You've kind of answered your own question.....
.....if God existed he wouldn't allow anybody to start any more threads on Cable Forum about Religion :D :D
OMG !! :D
(Well someone had to say it :dozey: )
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 21:32
You've kind of answered your own question.....
.....if God existed he wouldn't allow anybody to start any more threads on Cable Forum about Religion :D :D
ha! I see... I take it this one is a bone of contention here? I am aware there are some very religious people who post here, and not being religious myself (though I believe there is something greater than ourselves out there somewhere), I just wanted to see how faith defends such predicaments. in a way, there is logic on both sides of the fence here.
downquark1
18-03-2009, 21:38
The story would suggest that the religious are free from disease and suffering. Is this true?
I suffer these types of threads a lot so I'd say the answer might be no....
mischievious
18-03-2009, 21:44
:D
Seriously, I am off upstairs with a paint brush right now. I'm happy to come back and have a go at this later though. In the meantime I can see the usual suspects circling, so I'll leave you all to it for now ... :wavey:
wisdom appears in many guises :D
The story would suggest that the religious are free from disease and suffering. Is this true?
I think it shows people find what they want to see in the story ;)
What's the old joke? - show a plumber a problem, and it will be a plumbing problem.
Likewise, I believe that most people will find in that "story" something that reinforces their existing viewpoint (imho). :angel:
ha! I see... I take it this one is a bone of contention here? I am aware there are some very religious people who post here, and not being religious myself (though I believe there is something greater than ourselves out there somewhere), I just wanted to see how faith defends such predicaments. in a way, there is logic on both sides of the fence here.
You have been a member here since 2003 and NOW you ask this question...:erm:
mischievious
18-03-2009, 21:46
You have been a member here since 2003 and NOW you ask this question...:erm:
It was mentioned that he hadn't heard this story before, why not?
ha! I see... I take it this one is a bone of contention here? I am aware there are some very religious people who post here, and not being religious myself (though I believe there is something greater than ourselves out there somewhere), I just wanted to see how faith defends such predicaments. in a way, there is logic on both sides of the fence here.
Faith has never depended on logic, or having to defend itself against straw-man loaded questions (again, imho). ;)
It was mentioned that he hadn't heard this story before, why not?
Why don't you read what I posted..and what I quoted?:rolleyes:
downquark1
18-03-2009, 21:50
I think it shows people find what they want to see in the story ;)
What's the old joke? - show a plumber a problem, and it will be a plumbing problem.
Likewise, I believe that most people will find in that "story" something that reinforces their existing viewpoint (imho). :angel:
I'm sure that's true but the only opinion it has formed for me is that the story is flawed. And that couldn't have been my opinion before since I didn't know the story.
And I normally enjoy parables, Jesus brand or any other.
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 21:52
You have been a member here since 2003 and NOW you ask this question...:erm:
well, not really being religious, I tend to stay away from the religious threads, as I don;t really have anything to offer them.
---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------
Faith has never depended on logic, or having to defend itself against straw-man loaded questions (again, imho). ;)
that is a very good point.
mischievious
18-03-2009, 21:53
Why don't you read what I posted..and what I quoted?:rolleyes:
I did, you asked why bring it up now.... considering he has only just read this story it would be impossible to bring this up before he had read it..... :rolleyes:
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 21:55
I suffer these types of threads a lot so I'd say the answer might be no....
you need not suffer this one if you don't want to, although any input regarding the topic is appreciated.
I did, you asked why bring it up now.... considering he has only just read this story it would be impossible to bring this up before he had read it..... :rolleyes:
I was referring to the fact he seems to think it's a new bone of contention when in fact it's the same damned question that is repeatedly addressed in EVERY religious thread we have ever had on CF..which as he has been a member for the last 5 years he should be aware exactly what he is asking..
Now are you clear as to WHAT I MEANT?:rolleyes:
you need not suffer this one if you don't want to, although any input regarding the topic is appreciated.
Being an admin means I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing which threads to look at.
Re: input.
I'm not going to give any for 2 reasons: firstly as I said earlier, the answers to the questions you ask have been answered hundreds of time in the past. Secondly no-one is ever satisfied with their question because another will always follow. And another and another etc and a lot of questions are not there to be answered, they will be thinly disguised digs aimed to mock.
If you want a clue, first of all research the fallacies and misconceptions in that story you've posted and also in the subsequent questions. Start at www.allaboutgod.com
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 22:03
with all due respect maggy, if you don't want to be involved in the posting and have nothing constructive to add to the debate, might I suggest you focus your efforts on another thread. there's no need to shout at me though other members.
with all due respect maggy, if you don't want to be involved in the posting and have nothing constructive to add to the debate, might I suggest you focus your efforts on another thread. there's no need to shout at me though other members.
Ah but unlike you I'm not sitting on the fence..and I'm wondering if you really are that naive and truly asking because you have suddenly had an Epiphany or because you just want to wind up the usual suspects?I'm questioning your motives..as is my right.
mischievious
18-03-2009, 22:09
I was referring to the fact he seems to think it's a new bone of contention when in fact it's the same damned question that is repeatedly addressed in EVERY religious thread we have ever had on CF..which as he has been a member for the last 5 years he should be aware exactly what he is asking..
Now are you clear as to WHAT I MEANT?:rolleyes:
So why not actually say that rather than expect a level of clairvoyance I do not possess, bones nor contention were posted in the original thread :rolleyes:
Ultimately I agree any arguement regarding religion tends to result in a no win for anyone. Does this mean that the topic should not be discussed?
I would compare to parliament, in the past 250 years or so, many debates have been had and the same ones countless times....
No one is forced to post, unless a moderating decision is required of course.
So why not actually say that rather than expect a level of clairvoyance I do not possess, bones nor contention were posted in the original thread :rolleyes:
Ultimately I agree any arguement regarding religion tends to result in a no win for anyone. Does this mean that the topic should not be discussed?
I would compare to parliament, in the past 250 years or so, many debates have been had and the same ones countless times....
No one is forced to post, unless a moderating decision is required of course.
With all due respect my original question was not aimed at you...And why should those of faith have to continually have to answer the same damned question? Which so often as Russ says descend into the sly digs and abusive comments about their beliefs.I'm nt saying that you or Bender WILL do this but you can be ceratin that there are those on CF who will inevitably do so.
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 22:17
Ah but unlike you I'm not sitting on the fence..and I'm wondering if you really are that naive and truly asking because you have suddenly had an Epiphany or because you just want to wind up the usual suspects?I'm questioning your motives..as is my right.
I would have thought my motives were clear in my original post, as I did quite clearly label them. now that you have your answer, you need not continue with your rather obnoxious manner. again, if you have nothing further to contribute that will be constructive, I see no reason for you to post. kindly either say your part that is relevent to the topic, or just read. there is no need to start throwing your weight around. this story actually caught my attention and did actually make me think. i was merely wondering what others thought... as is my right.
I would have thought my motives were clear in my original post, as I did quite clearly label them. now that you have your answer, you need not continue with your rather obnoxious manner. again, if you have nothing further to contribute that will be constructive, I see no reason for you to post. kindly either say your part that is relevent to the topic, or just read. there is no need to start throwing your weight around. this story actually caught my attention and did actually make me think. i was merely wondering what others thought... as is my right.
I've every right to give my opinions in this or any other thread..as forcefully as I care to provided I'm not rude or abusive...
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 22:22
With all due respect my original question was not aimed at you...
and what original question was that? please ask me and I will endevour to answer you.
---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------
I've every right to give my opinions in this or any other thread..as forcefully as I care to provided I'm not rude or abusive...
shame that doesn't appear to apply to everyone at times, in my personal opinion. how come my right to ask about religion seems to be a major issue that is fought off and stubbed out? where are my rights here? I just want to hear what others have to say about this particular story and the questions it poses. but I suppose now the thread will just get closed, because someone doesn't like the questions being asked.
please can we get back on topic.
please can we get back on topic.
Was going to say the same thing.
If you want those questions answered, you'll find what you're looking for, and more, here (http://www.allaboutgod.com/popular-culture.htm).
....snipetty snip snip...
please can we get back on topic.
Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod! ;)
(posting in bold..... :D)
and what original question was that? please ask me and I will endevour to answer you.
---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:19 ----------
shame that doesn't appear to apply to everyone at times, in my personal opinion. how come my right to ask about religion seems to be a major issue that is fought off and stubbed out? where are my rights here? I just want to hear what others have to say about this particular story and the questions it poses. but I suppose now the thread will just get closed, because someone doesn't like the questions being asked.
please can we get back on topic.
Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?
Carry on..Just remember that Russ and Chris have been asked this type of question many times before and in every format possible which I'm perfectly sure you are are aware of as a long time member of this site.
It might be nice if the usual suspects could forbear from sidewise sniping at them because they are people of faith and just accept them as they are...
And I will cease to get fired up on their behalf...;)
rogerdraig
18-03-2009, 22:32
ha! I see... I take it this one is a bone of contention here? I am aware there are some very religious people who post here, and not being religious myself (though I believe there is something greater than ourselves out there somewhere), I just wanted to see how faith defends such predicaments. in a way, there is logic on both sides of the fence here.
hmm well it depends on whether you have a bit of time on your hands ;) ow i answer
but short version
some one challenged god right to rule and another couldnt keep to a simple rule
that started the problems we have
then some one challenged no one would follow god if they had free will
now this could be answered in two ways
1 being all powerful he could get rid of all those questioning his will
or
2 he could see if those given free will would follow him
the later from what my religion teaches was the choice
later
some person said the only reason some follow you is because you look after them
this led to another of those choices leave things as they were or see if those with free will would follow no mater what
so the challenge was accepted man was left to follow god if he wished with no help
while mankind was allowed to try and govern themselves until the end of this test and make thier own choices over who to follow
those who don't believe in a god will say if there was a god there would be no suffering but then there would be no free will
who would choose to suffer while everything was provided by god ?
nothing is foreordained the choices are ours god doesnt call people life just happens based on our choices good or bad for the time being
just to point out before the committed scientist go for me ( got my tin hat already ;) )
my religion accepts the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years old that dinosaurs existed that it took more than 6 literal days to make the earth and what is now in it ;)
and i am all for natural selection !
i am just running by the main points that my religion believes in as a answer to why pain and suffering still exist :)
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 22:39
Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod! ;)
(posting in bold..... :D)
is bold another rule only applicable to some now? :rolleyes:
mischievious
18-03-2009, 22:40
Hey, everybody - Bender is now a mod! ;)
(posting in bold..... :D)
pre-emptive strike I'd say :)
For myself I have family whom are deeply religious and can only explain in terms that escape me.... You either have faith or you don't and you can't feign faith.
I believe that generally you are either brought up to believe or a life changing event encourages a spark of belief which grows into something bigger like the love for a friend.
Maybe I'll never understand but for myself and others like myself I'd like to.
The best understanding that I can come to is to liken the faith that a religious person has to the faith a child might have that their mum will pick them up from pre-school every day.
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 22:49
@ rogermevans
sorry, i mean:
@ rogermevans
thank you. at least someone has the decency and integrity to post something that actually tries to explain rather than exterminate. as I say, I am not a religious person to the extent that I follow a church or 'God' as such. please forgive my ignorance, it is not intentional. what you say is very interesting, and indeed answers and puts forward more questions.
I would read that as saying, to an extent, that those who chose to follow God would not be sufferers of disease and famine (and other such nasties), yet obviosuly we know they do. if these people choose to follow God, why are they not exempt from these things?
and I agree life does just happen. we make our own paths, but do they all end in the same outcomes? (and I'm not talking about being 6 feet under!)
also, when does this test end? what is the sign that says the test is over?
---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------
The best understanding that I can come to is to liken the faith that a religious person has to the faith a child might have that their mum will pick them up from pre-school every day.
"mother is the word for 'God' on the lips and hearts of all children" ~the crow (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109506/)
I can see the point of the man who had his beard cut, but does this story not miss the point that the barber is only a man. whereas God is seen as omnipresent / omnipotent?
The painting's done. :) Now, let me see if I can address a couple of the points here.
First thing to say about this is that the story is offered as a simple illustration of a single point, rather than as a complete exploration of the entirety of Christian theology. It's like a parable, the sort of story Jesus used to use to illustrate his sermons. The key to understanding these sorts of things is not to try to load symbolic meaning onto elements of the story that weren't intended to carry it, but are simply there to make the story possible.
You're right, if the barber was God he would have had a different perspective. But that's not necessary for the story to function. The simple point of the story is to say that suffering in the world is due to humankind's unwillingness for it to be dealt with according to God's expertise, even though that expertise is available.
The tramp in this story is more akin to the race as a whole, rather than any individual person. While there are people in the world who don't submit to God, there will always be those who seek to aggrandise themselves at the expense of others, and hence there will always be suffering.
Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?
Your first statement assumes that conceptually, there can only be a God if he (she/it if you like) acts the way you think he should. Your second statement accepts as a given the Christian beliefs about God's loving and forgiving nature whilst at the same time ignoring the Christian beliefs about his just nature. If you indulge in pick'n'mix theology you're bound to end up with some strange flavour combinations. ;)
How am I doing so far?
idi banashapan
18-03-2009, 23:17
you're doing well - thought provoking and well explained. I think it's becoming clear that my questions are simply down to my own naivety in regards to religion. you're quite right that pick'n'mix does lead to a hash of flavours. perhaps religion is something that should not be taken in a literal sense.
I just find it difficult to understand how faith drives people. I've heard people say "if i follow God and there isn't one at the end of it, I've not really lost anything. If i follow God and there is one, I gain everything.", but I'm not so sure. religion (how should I say this?) 'encourages' people to live their lives in a certain way - according to certain rules. social morals are built around these rules and those who go against them could end up in jail. for example, were society not to frown upon hurting another physically who had done harm to either yourself or family member / friend, I'm sure there would be a lot more injured people out there!
So this makes me wonder if religion was really a way of dressing up a set of rules and then placing the onus on the individual with the fear that if they did not follow these rules, God would not accept them. something which we obviously cannot prove either way. As our scientific understanding of the world progresses, we have far fewer 'miracles' as we know how things work a lot better. this onbviously leads society to lose it's faith in religion as those things the churches used to make people believe are explained away one by one.
so where does this leave society and the church. is there actually a benefit from devoting or not? and why do so many people stll believe God exists when we now have answers to so many 'miracles'?
On the flip side, would you agree that faith has been lost due to our advancement as a race and could it eventually decline to a point that religion is merely a cult establishment? what effect would this have on the way we govern ourselves in respect to laws and morals?
mischievious
18-03-2009, 23:21
The painting's done. :)
......
How am I doing so far?
First hows the painting look, this time of night and not so good light you might find bits you've missed tomorrow in daylight :D
As to the other bit very well, comes accross like you have patiently (avoiding bold) explained this countless times and will do countless more times ;)
You paint the concept of god in a very human like manner, e.g. with many qualities, one of which is forgiveness but there are many other facets.
why is God presented with human like qualities....
Though I find this interesting and as a logical, rational and physical being the simplest solution seems to be a religious person has faith that god exists (In whatever form) whilst a non believer should simply claim faith that a god does not exist. It is all a mad accident of atoms and molecules over countless years. Then we just have to accept each other.
For those on the fence, I believe that most religious circles subscribe to the idea that it is never too late to find god, if that is on your deathbed then so be it.
rogerdraig
18-03-2009, 23:32
@ rogermevans
sorry, i mean:
@ rogermevans
thank you. at least someone has the decency and integrity to post something that actually tries to explain rather than exterminate. as I say, I am not a religious person to the extent that I follow a church or 'God' as such. please forgive my ignorance, it is not intentional. what you say is very interesting, and indeed answers and puts forward more questions.
I would read that as saying, to an extent, that those who chose to follow God would not be sufferers of disease and famine (and other such nasties), yet obviosuly we know they do. if these people choose to follow God, why are they not exempt from these things?
and I agree life does just happen. we make our own paths, but do they all end in the same outcomes? (and I'm not talking about being 6 feet under!)
also, when does this test end? what is the sign that says the test is over?
---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------
"mother is the word for 'God' on the lips and hearts of all children" ~the crow (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109506/)
the end of the test is at an appointed time that know one but god knows for the same reason of the no extra help in that if a time was know those who believed but didn't want to follow the rules set down for believers could do as they wished until just before the appointed time then jump back into the fold just in time ( hardly fair ;) lol )
though the period it would come in is foretold at mathew 24 though many would say that the signs there could be put as have happened many times in the past we beive that they are being fulfilled now but that doesnt mean its in going to happen soon ;)
as to those following god not suffering we don't see it that way though we would say that our way may lead to a happier life even now , we do not claim that it is because god is helping us other than by the instructions we follow ,or making things easier for us now other than we tend to try to avoid situations that could cause us problems but that is still our choice not intervention from above
quote
Ecclesiastes 9:11
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all.
unquote
I just find it difficult to understand how faith drives people. I've heard people say "if i follow God and there isn't one at the end of it, I've not really lost anything. If i follow God and there is one, I gain everything.", but I'm not so sure.
Nor am I, on that basis. What you're describing there isn't really faith, it's fire insurance. The Christian life is one of commitment, discipleship, submission, worship and relationship. You can't have any of those things to any meaninful degree if all you're doing is hedging against the possibility of an afterlife.
religion (how should I say this?) 'encourages' people to live their lives in a certain way - according to certain rules. social morals are built around these rules and those who go against them could end up in jail. for example, were society not to frown upon hurting another physically who had done harm to either yourself or family member / friend, I'm sure there would be a lot more injured people out there! Quite true. God, through both Moses in the Old Testament and through Jesus in the New, has made clear the rules he expects his people to live by, for the best interests of all. But that's not the full extent of what he has said; it's only part of it.
So this makes me wonder if religion was really a way of dressing up a set of rules and then placing the onus on the individual with the fear that if they did not follow these rules, God would not accept them. something which we obviously cannot prove either way.It's a tempting conclusion, but one that doesn't stack up because of all the inconvenient things the Bible has to say about the servant nature a true leader is supposed to have. Any self-respecting despot, who wanted a religion created for him to help him control the masses, would have had the priests put to the sword and then employed others to come up with better rules that didn't require quite so much selfless living and personal sacrifice. Actually, that happened, throughout Bible history. And yet, somehow, we still have the Bible, in all its inconvenient glory.
As our scientific understanding of the world progresses, we have far fewer 'miracles' as we know how things work a lot better. this onbviously leads society to lose it's faith in religion as those things the churches used to make people believe are explained away one by one.I think it depends on what you define as a miracle. The Bible never calls the stars or the seasons, or the sun coming up in the morning, a miracle, although its writers acknowledged they were mysteries of God that they didn't understand.
But medical science even today would have a hard time explaining any of the healings or raisings-from-the-dead that are attributed to Jesus.
so where does this leave society and the church. is there actually a benefit from devoting or not? and why do so many people stll believe God exists when we now have answers to so many 'miracles'?Well, you can buy a Haynes manual for your car, but if it stirs anything in you (other than a desire to take your car to bits), it's surely more likely to be appreciation for the work of the designer of the car, rather than an insistence that the designer doesn't exist.
On the flip side, would you agree that faith has been lost due to our advancement as a race and could it eventually decline to a point that religion is merely a cult establishment? what effect would this have on the way we govern ourselves in respect to laws and morals?No - faith is very much a part of life in the USA, for example, despite the material wealth and the lead that country has in many advanced areas of research and manufacture. On a world scale, faith is very much a current issue. Atheism, or various kinds of agnostcism, are very prevalent in 21st century UK, but we are more of an exception than the rule in this. It's easy for people engaging in this sort of debate to lose sight of that.
First hows the painting look, this time of night and not so good light you might find bits you've missed tomorrow in daylight :D
Don't worry, it's just a basecoat for a porous wall. There's two layers of wallpaper and more paint to come yet. :(
As to the other bit very well, comes accross like you have patiently (avoiding bold) explained this countless times and will do countless more times ;)Thank you ... you're right, I have, and I certainly will ...
You paint the concept of god in a very human like manner, e.g. with many qualities, one of which is forgiveness but there are many other facets.
why is God presented with human like qualities.... It makes him easier to get to grips with, I suppose. That's not the whole picture of course. If you want that you'll have to come to church and listen to me going at it from the pulpit for a great many weeks. :D
Though I find this interesting and as a logical, rational and physical being the simplest solution seems to be a religious person has faith that god exists (In whatever form) whilst a non believer should simply claim faith that a god does not exist. It is all a mad accident of atoms and molecules over countless years. Then we just have to accept each other.Such was the thesis being explored in Contact, although Carl Sagan was himself an avowed agnostic of the fence-sitting kind. :D
For those on the fence, I believe that most religious circles subscribe to the idea that it is never too late to find god, if that is on your deathbed then so be it.Christianity certainly holds to this idea.
No - faith is very much a part of life in the USA, for example, despite the material wealth and the lead that country has in many advanced areas of research and manufacture. On a world scale, faith is very much a current issue. Atheism, or various kinds of agnosticism, are very prevalent in 21st century UK, but we are more of an exception than the rule in this. It's easy for people engaging in this sort of debate to lose sight of that.
Just picking up on this point: I'd say that that the situation in the UK is pretty much the norm for the Western world (with the US being a bit of an exception). It would be stretching the truth to say that the UK is an exception in the Western world.
Essentially all questions like this are a waste of time, as you can never prove or disprove the existance of God by a logic puzzle due to the very nature of religion.
Religion is based on faith, and faith exists without proof, the second you try to bring logic into a debate on religion you lose because religion exists outside of the realms of logic. It's not logical, it doesn't make scientific sense, and cannot be shown to be the way, this is why religions are faiths and not sciences.
To say that people suffer therefore there is no God misses the point, if people who didn't follow a God suffered, whilst those that did didn't, that would be proof of the existence of God, and therefore the faith would be removed. Religion cannot exist without faith, faith is the very essence of religion, it's not something you know, but something you feel.
You can attribute the suffering of people as tests of faith, maybe not for you as an individual, but for humanity as a whole, you may live a sin free life, and you may still suffer, how you react to the fact that that happens could be how God judges you. Even though everything has gone against you, and everything seems to be falling apart, do you still turn to God? Or do you dismiss him from your life?
Now, I'm an atheist, and quite set in my beliefs, I don't believe in God, and think religion was first developed as a way to control the unruley masses, the fear of God does wonders for keeping a society in check. But I'm not going to try to debate the existence of God on the basis of logic and reason, because I know that religion doesn't have either of these things, and it doesn't need to.
All boils down to....
Was the earth and human life created by an intelligent designer, or big bang theory and evolution.
Choice is ours to make, free will and all that.
The way to find out is to study both sides and make your own mind up!
I personally like that story!
---------- Post added at 07:10 ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 ----------
With all due respect my original question was not aimed at you...And why should those of faith have to continually have to answer the same damned question? Which so often as Russ says descend into the sly digs and abusive comments about their beliefs.I'm nt saying that you or Bender WILL do this but you can be ceratin that there are those on CF who will inevitably do so.
With respect, there are new members coming on the site daily, some will like the chance to share in a topic such as this, or just to read other peoples view pionts. I know for the more seasoned folk on here it may become boring. Or if you have seen a thred go into a downward spiral and then hard to moderate, it must be tough. I for one love to see other peoples view points on religion, even if I've heard them all before!!;)
Not a dig at anyone here at all by the way!
These type of topics I realise come up on forums and exchanges may get heated at times, but anyone with a true belief in God will not take offence, and see through the wind up merchants sly digs and abusive comments, and would focus on the folks comments who are properly involved in the topic!
...And why should those of faith have to continually have to answer the same damned question? ....
Because religious belief is a powerful influence in society?
To use an analogy: Don't you agree that we should continually question a drug company about a medicine that has been available for decades? Or are you happy to accept the "authoritative answer", and not insist on examining the long-term safety data?
.... But I'm not going to try to debate the existence of God on the basis of logic and reason, because I know that religion doesn't have either of these things, and it doesn't need to.
Well, logic sets us apart from the other animals. It's the best tool we have to differentiate between fact and fiction.
To use an analogy: Without logic we would still think the sun revolved around a flat earth.
The painting's done. :) Now, let me see if I can address a couple of the points here.
First thing to say about this is that the story is offered as a simple illustration of a single point, rather than as a complete exploration of the entirety of Christian theology. It's like a parable, the sort of story Jesus used to use to illustrate his sermons. The key to understanding these sorts of things is not to try to load symbolic meaning onto elements of the story that weren't intended to carry it, but are simply there to make the story possible.
You're right, if the barber was God he would have had a different perspective. But that's not necessary for the story to function. The simple point of the story is to say that suffering in the world is due to humankind's unwillingness for it to be dealt with according to God's expertise, even though that expertise is available.
The tramp in this story is more akin to the race as a whole, rather than any individual person. While there are people in the world who don't submit to God, there will always be those who seek to aggrandise themselves at the expense of others, and hence there will always be suffering.
Your first statement assumes that conceptually, there can only be a God if he (she/it if you like) acts the way you think he should. Your second statement accepts as a given the Christian beliefs about God's loving and forgiving nature whilst at the same time ignoring the Christian beliefs about his just nature. If you indulge in pick'n'mix theology you're bound to end up with some strange flavour combinations. ;)
How am I doing so far?
Very very well!!
Saaf_laandon_mo
19-03-2009, 08:44
You've kind of answered your own question.....
.....if God existed he wouldn't allow anybody to start any more threads on Cable Forum about Religion :D :D
Or it could be the devil at work.
Or it could be the devil at work.
That's a bit harsh on the OP......;)
Well, logic sets us apart from the other animals. It's the best tool we have to differentiate between fact and fiction.
To use an analogy: Without logic we would still think the sun revolved around a flat earth.
Just because you can't solve something logically it doesn't mean it's wrong.
To use an analogy: Logic would say that a particle will act the same way if it's observed as if it isn't. Yet the double slit experiment shows us that particles act differently when something is watching them, unobserved they act as waves, and observed they act as particles. In fact the entire quantum world, where all possible outcomes of an event exist in superposition, defies logic. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not, we know it does.
To cast something aside because it's not logical is short sighted.
Logic cannot be applied to everything, religion is one of the many things that defies logic because it has to. Any deity worth it's salt will ensure that their religion is as illogical as possible, because they don't want it to be proven because they want followers of faith. There's nothing special about following something that has been proven.
downquark1
19-03-2009, 12:01
Just because you can't solve something logically it doesn't mean it's wrong.
To use an analogy: Logic would say that a particle will act the same way if it's observed as if it isn't. Yet the double slit experiment shows us that particles act differently when something is watching them, unobserved they act as waves, and observed they act as particles. In fact the entire quantum world, where all possible outcomes of an event exist in superposition, defies logic. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not, we know it does.
To cast something aside because it's not logical is short sighted.
Logic cannot be applied to everything, religion is one of the many things that defies logic because it has to. Any deity worth it's salt will ensure that their religion is as illogical as possible, because they don't want it to be proven because they want followers of faith. There's nothing special about following something that has been proven.
Sorry for being so impersonal as to reply with a link, but he explains it better than I can: http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/03/mr_spock_is_not_logical_book_d.php
tweetypie/8
19-03-2009, 12:35
I'm not a deeply religious person, but I read a good story and wondered how others would take it. Forgive my ignorance if this is a well known story, but I'd not heard it before:
A man went to a barbershop to have his haircut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they
eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."
"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out
in the street to realize that, God doesn't exist. Tell me; if God exists,
would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?
If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a
loving God who would allow all of these things."
The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left
the shop.
Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long,
stringy, dirty hair and untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The
customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and he said to the
barber:
"You know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a
barber. And I just worked on you!"
"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like
that man outside."
"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to
me."
"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for
help.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."
I can see the point of the man who had his beard cut, but does this story not miss the point that the barber is only a man. whereas God is seen as omnipresent / omnipotent?
Surely if there was a God, then the barber's point would hold true? why is there pain and suffering? And if God is seen as all-forgiving and loving, why is there a need for Hell? Would everyone not be accepted into God's Heaven if they are loved and forgiven by him?
many years ago i watched jess yates on songs of praise,he was discussing faith with two people a christian woman and a atheist man,on the conclusion of the debate the atheist asked the woman what she would do if after a lifetime acknowledging that there is a god and upon dying finding that there is no god,she replied nothing,she then put it to the man who was denying god and upon dying finding out that there is a god what would he do ? he couldnt answer the question.me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.
me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.
Why does there?
This is what I don't get, you'll see most religious people saying the same, yet there's no reason why there has to be, and when pushed most just say something along the lines of "this can't be all there is".
downquark1
19-03-2009, 12:51
many years ago i watched jess yates on songs of praise,he was discussing faith with two people a christian woman and a atheist man,on the conclusion of the debate the atheist asked the woman what she would do if after a lifetime acknowledging that there is a god and upon dying finding that there is no god,she replied nothing,she then put it to the man who was denying god and upon dying finding out that there is a god what would he do ? he couldnt answer the question.me personally i beleive in god as there has to be something better after a life on this earth.
Is the question no god or no afterlife?
If there was no afterlife you would not "find" it not there.
Why does there?
This is what I don't get, you'll see most religious people saying the same, yet there's no reason why there has to be, and when pushed most just say something along the lines of "this can't be all there is".
That will be people with no real bible knowledge then!!!:)
It's so much easier if you don't believe in God. :P
papa smurf
19-03-2009, 16:39
It's so much easier if you don't believe in God. :P
cant agree .
if you don't believe in god you have to look harder for the answers ,and you also have to make the best of the life you have instead of waiting for the mythical afterlife, the easy answer is its Gods will ,well that's my ten peneth ;)
cant agree .
if you don't believe in god you have to look harder for the answers ,and you also have to make the best of the life you have instead of waiting for the mythical afterlife, the easy answer is its Gods will ,well that's my ten peneth ;)
Well, I don't believe there's a God, and my life is going great.
papa smurf
19-03-2009, 16:44
Well, I don't believe there's a God, and my life is going great.
thats great. i dont believe either and lifes what you make it imo
wow two posts from atheists that should stir up the other side .
That will be people with no real bible knowledge then!!!:)
Bible knowledge doesn't answer why there HAS TO BE more to existence than just life on this planet, it just suggests that there is.
It's perfectly possible for existence to start with birth and end at death. Saying that there has to be something more is just a way of saying that you don't want this to be all there is because it'd ultimately mean life is meaningless.
idi banashapan
19-03-2009, 19:26
Nor am I, on that basis. What you're describing there isn't really faith, it's fire insurance.
Ha! I like that idea, and it appears very true. never thought of it like that!
But medical science even today would have a hard time explaining any of the healings or raisings-from-the-dead that are attributed to Jesus.
hmmm, possibly. but if we look into things such as 'wakes' when people die... this ritual came about from times a-past, when plates and tankards were forged from pewter. the crudely made mead and and acidic foods (such as tomatoes, etc) would react to the alloy casuing poison to the consumer. this sometimes left them so unconscious with such low metabolic functions that it was very hard to tell they were alive. it became apparent to the people that sometimesthey were burying alive persons, known only by exhuming coffins with scratch marks on the inside. when it was realised what was going on, people would hold a wake (quite literally waiting for them to wake up) whereby family / friends would gather around the layed out body with food and drink and sit with the body to see if they woke up. this also lead to 'saved by the bell' and it became common practice to feed a pull into coffins tied around a dead persons wrist with a bell up top so that if they woke up, the bell would chime. this also required someone to stay in the graveyard at night incase a bell went off and thus we have 'the graveyard shift' in reference to working nights.
who is to say something similar did not happen to Jesus?
No - faith is very much a part of life in the USA, for example, despite the material wealth and the lead that country has in many advanced areas of research and manufacture. On a world scale, faith is very much a current issue.
as a religious person, do you think that global faith in God would be shattered if science revealed we were not alone in the universe?
Atheism, or various kinds of agnostcism, are very prevalent in 21st century UK, but we are more of an exception than the rule in this. It's easy for people engaging in this sort of debate to lose sight of that.
why do you think this is? what is different about us to, say, the USA? why is religion so institutionalised over there?
Thank you for your time, Chris. I apologise if you are tired of answering questions like these, but then I suppose if it's something close to your heart, you'll never tire of talking about it. I'm in no way trying to poo-poo God, religion or faith, nor am I trying to make believers question their own views. Religion is just one of those things I find difficult to grasp because I tend to be a very logical thinker, whereby a+b=c - religion falls outside of that and is souly based on a faith, which totally ignores logic and comes only from within.
---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------
God no aliens yes
care to expand on that?
---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------
Very very well!!
agreed
---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------
That's a bit harsh on the OP......;)
hey... I saw that! :dozey:
mischievious
19-03-2009, 20:40
as a religious person, do you think that global faith in God would be shattered if science revealed we were not alone in the universe?
I don't think that requires a religious person to answer, christianity has seen many changes over the years from its inception that I suspect that it would simply evolve to accomodate such an event. It may even be hailed as a new chapter in the Bible. Just because something is based upon faith does not logically mean that it is inflexible. The rules of logic dictate the if you start with a false premise (I read "that" post it near took my head off thanks for that one) e.g. in this case that a person of faith is unable to change or mould their faith to fit in with new evidence. You will certainly end up with a logically false conclusion though it will have still been logical.
For example it has been argued that religion is not based upon logic or even reason and therefore you cannot assess it as such. This standpoint however is talking about the impossibility of assessing "Faith" not the events, evidence e.g. the Bible, historic evidence which all contribute to such a belief. These things can be assesed within a logical framework.
My only gripe with religion is why in the purest sense of the word does each religion claim ownership of the one true god, I am open here as I may be wrong???. Since God is indefinable and only attributed certain "human" characteristics in order to get to grips with the concept it is possible that God is all of them and that they are all right!
---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------
I was just checking a couple of Bible timelines, from 6th day of creation nothing till 3999BC that is one hell of a day off :D
http://www.abiblestudy.com/part1.html
Though this one suggests creation etc. happened in 4004 BC
http://www.wordsight.org/btl/000_btl-fp.htm
We know that's not true and I believe is generally accepted as such.
tweetypie/8
19-03-2009, 22:49
Is the question no god or no afterlife?
If there was no afterlife you would not "find" it not there.
there are plenty of people a heck of a lot better educated than me and a lot better off than me who beleive in god and the hereafter,me personally i put it down to faith and i have no problems with it,i am by no means a holy joe but i do beleive in prayer and faith and where i come from i firmly beleive that faith kept my family safe during the troubles,every man / woman are entitled to their own beleifs and i have no time for people ramming religion down peoples throats live and let live.
mischievious
19-03-2009, 23:31
i have no time for people ramming religion down peoples throats live and let live.
Like the people who knock at the door :mad:
They ruined my breakfast once, I was making a lovely fried breakfast... Not wanting to be rude I tried diplomacy... conculsion was black breakfast.
If there was a God.....
If there was a God that phrase wouldn't exist. :)
i have no time for people ramming religion down peoples throats live and let live.
And I have no time for people who ram atheism down people's throats.
mischievious
19-03-2009, 23:37
And I have no time for people who ram atheism down people's throats.
Though I have never heard of an atheist going door to door?
I didn't say they did. Tweetiepie didn't mention anything about knocking on doors. But you only have to read any discussion forum about religion to find the atheist queuing up to tell everyone how we're all deluded, that there's "no God" etc.
And I have no time for people who ram atheism down people's throats.
It's fun to watch them as they pass each other on your drive as the one's going and the other one's coming though :)
mischievious
19-03-2009, 23:48
If there was a God.....
If there was a God that phrase wouldn't exist. :)
Unless you agree with the idea that God is letting the whole freedom thing run its course as a test to see which of us will remain faithful?
Seems an odd test though if that is what it is.... Maybe God will accept us all in the end seeing as he gave us free will, logic, rational though and reasoning as gifts. Seems a little spiteful that he should grant such gifts and then punish us for not believing having given us a very tenuous grasp of the facts.
I believe since we have been granted such "gifts" we are meant to use them. I admit I sit on the fence, however I also have "faith" that since we are obviously meant to use these qualities they are not sins if a god should exist, I also have faith that no matter what, unless I am evil of purpose that I shall be admitted into heaven should it exist despite any belief that I hold during life.
---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:46 ----------
I didn't say they did. Tweetiepie didn't mention anything about knocking on doors. But you only have to read any discussion forum about religion to find the atheist queuing up to tell everyone how we're all deluded, that there's "no God" etc.
Russ I was not taking issue, perhaps we both made flipant comments. I do not wish a war of words but an exchange of views. Though many believe that no resolution can be made it does not mean that we cannot respect each others opinion.
Russ I was not taking issue, perhaps we both made flipant comments. I do not wish a war of words but an exchange of views. Though many believe that no resolution can be made it does not mean that we cannot respect each others opinion.
That's all very well in theory but in practise it's a little different. Many atheists feel totally justified in telling the world that there's no God (it's their view, they're entitled to it) but if someone with faith proclaims their belief in God then suddenly they're "ramming it down people's throats" etc.
Not that there's supposed to be a competition but atheists get away with far more than people of faith when it comes to professing their beliefs.
Unless you agree with the idea that God is letting the whole freedom thing run its course as a test to see which of us will remain faithful?
Seems an odd test though if that is what it is.... Maybe God will accept us all in the end seeing as he gave us free will, logic, rational though and reasoning as gifts. Seems a little spiteful that he should grant such gifts and then punish us for not believing having given us a very tenuous grasp of the facts.
Well if he don't let me in, I can always quote the Bible and the bit about forgiving and forgetting to him :)
mischievious
19-03-2009, 23:57
Well if he don't let me in, I can always quote the Bible and the bit about forgiving and forgetting to him :)
LOL but I think you also missed the bit about the wrath of god
LOL but I think you also missed the bit about the wrath of god
Is that when we see some action from him? I'm all for that one :)
mischievious
20-03-2009, 00:05
That's all very well in theory but in practise it's a little different. Many atheists feel totally justified in telling the world that there's no God (it's their view, they're entitled to it) but if someone with faith proclaims their belief in God then suddenly they're "ramming it down people's throats" etc.
Not that there's supposed to be a competition but atheists get away with far more than people of faith when it comes to professing their beliefs.
I see your point, I have not any experience as I am not religeous per se nor witness of this, must've been on other threads before this one.
If however as has been mentioned atheists have a harder time because of the lack of any belief system except lack of belief then you could possibly find comform in a moral high ground?
If not then why not simply trade it all for a knowing smile, a wink, benelovence, faith, belief etc. for they are in your eyes wrong, you have god, you will in the end return to god. You have nothing to fear.... What does an atheist have? You'll have eternal glory, what is that compare to 70 or so years of life in this mortal coil?
Surely that is worth more than anything anyone can throw at you?
After 7 years it gets tough....
Actually very quickly it became tough, hearing the same worn-out arguments from the same people over and over again. Sadly these threads always end up the same way. If I was a regular forum member then I probably wouldn't care. But they are a nightmare to admin.
mischievious
20-03-2009, 00:16
Is that when we see some action from him? I'm all for that one :)
I think you need to wait till the end for the creature with the red hot poker!!
Seriously! It isn't a red hot poker it is "eternal damnation" no parole, no good behaviour etc. In many modern interpretations which the modern Christian faiths seems to sign up to, rather than the older "your soul will burn forever" kind of way. There is a softer message though potentially harsher reality, Hell is being removed from the word of God, I have read a bit but may be wrong here?. This of course is if this is all true but only people of faith believe it is so.
However I have noticed that though Christians will agree to disagree on what they call "small issues" on the big ones like Jesus dying to redeem mankind this they are all solid on. Hell seesm to come under the small issues categories so it is more fluid in what it is.
Theology and Philosophy fabulous!
I think you need to wait till the end for the creature with the red hot poker!!
We got more chance of Aliens with ray guns and fairies at the bottom of our gardens I think.
mischievious
20-03-2009, 00:44
After 7 years it gets tough....
Actually very quickly it became tough, hearing the same worn-out arguments from the same people over and over again. Sadly these threads always end up the same way. If I was a regular forum member then I probably wouldn't care. But they are a nightmare to admin.
Surely they can only end in such a way if you and other like yourself give way to the forces of logic and reason?
I myself love a logical debate and it has a place. Faith also has a place. They are both incompatible concepts and cannot cancel out the other. For many logic is thet way forward simply because it is provable.
For myself, though I do not have a religion as other might, I do believe that life is splendorous and warrants more questions. The questions should not cease, the ridicule of other opinions should.
It seems that the battle always boils over to the point where both sides conclude that the other should simply "shut the f*** up!!!!!!!!" but the reality usually is that both are being equally ridiculous.
For me at least that is the greatest advantage of sitting on the fence, I can see both sides and see accept and understand to a point both sides. I am the least emotional, most rational and most logical creature in this "thing".
What if this is what was really intended? What if God (if there is one) really intended for us to move forward and use the tools "they" provided us with as a means to move in another direction. What if the Bible was a tool and has served it purpose? Maybe it was never meant to be clung to like a life raft... The nearest person is 2000 or so years old, the world is moving on. Maybe the fence sitter isn't really a fence sitter after all, maybe that is our purpose???? I could write much more but I think that is enough for today, my head is buzzing with ideas
---------- Post added at 00:44 ---------- Previous post was at 00:35 ----------
We got more chance of Aliens with ray guns and fairies at the bottom of our gardens I think.
Since neither can be proven "just yet", your stance is just as tenous as god.
Whilst I hold the belief that it is unlikely that we are alone in the universe, it does not cancel out any belief of a God...... Unless your definition of the word God in much tighter than I ever thought possible.
I also stuggle with the idea that if powers beyond our comprehension are at play why it should be a single entity???? Since we cannot prove 1 entity.
Besides, why should or even would God be alone? I didn't say lonely... simply a-lone as in "a" "lone" entity
:)
The term "ramming", when used about people sharing their beliefs about God, is a very wrong one to use.
It is also a word that has just been picked up by the masses and now is used when anyone speaks about God, but in most cases, so not true!
Most folk who do the work of speaking about God to others are respectful, and would be listeners of the other peoples opinions /view points if a discussion about God was entered into.
...To cast something aside because it's not logical is short sighted.....
To accept something that cannot be tested by logic is foolish - or do you expect everyone to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
To accept something that cannot be tested by logic is foolish - or do you expect everyone to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I love my family, even when they upset me and cause me pain - where's the logic in that.
Emotion is not logical, but it exists. :)
LondonRoad
20-03-2009, 09:11
To accept something that cannot be tested by logic is foolish - or do you expect everyone to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
To dismiss everything because of the limitations of our logical minds is foolish. :rolleyes:
papa smurf
20-03-2009, 09:15
To dismiss everything because of the limitations of our logical minds is foolish. :rolleyes:
is that just another way of saying there is no evidence of a GOD ?;)
LondonRoad
20-03-2009, 09:25
is that just another way of saying there is no evidence of a GOD ?;)
I know there's a god. ;) There is no evidence to the contrary.
mischievious
20-03-2009, 09:56
To accept something that cannot be tested by logic is foolish - or do you expect everyone to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If you are to weild the sword of logic as the sword of truth, you should at least make a "logical statement". God and Fairies are not logically the same under any rules of logic.
papa smurf
20-03-2009, 10:01
we seem to arrived at the
To accept something that cannot be tested by logic is foolish - or do you expect everyone to believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
No, it's faith. You may think that having faith is foolish, but many others do not. Do you not have faith in anything?
I don't believe in God, but I'm not going to turn a theological debate into a logical one, because that's just building a straw man as no one believes that religion is at all logical.
Since neither can be proven "just yet", your stance is just as tenous as god.
It's really not.
We know that life can exist, we know that we're not at the limit of our scientific abilities, so therefore it's a logical conclusion to say that a civilisation could existed before us, has evolved further than us, and is more scientifically advanced than us, based on the fact that there are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe, and each of them has any number of solar systems, and any number of planets. The law of averages logically states that at least one of them will be home to advanced life, and if they've managed to avoid the numerous extinction events that we've had on this planet (remembering humans only started out 200,000 years ago in a universe billions of years old) then it's not a stretch to say they might have ray guns. Just think where we'll be in just another 1,000 years.
If you are to weild the sword of logic as the sword of truth, you should at least make a "logical statement". God and Fairies are not logically the same under any rules of logic.
They are the same when one calls them a figment of ones imagination. other than that, what is the likely logical statement under the rules of logic that make one so much different to the other? :)
God may not exist. therefore he is and was as real as the fairies are to some. only difference being is that God was written about more than the fairies were.
mischievious
20-03-2009, 10:17
It's really not.
We know that life can exist, we know that we're not at the limit of our scientific abilities, so therefore it's a logical conclusion to say that a civilisation could existed before us, has evolved further than us, and is more scientifically advanced than us, based on the fact that there are over 100 billion galaxies in the universe, and each of them has any number of solar systems, and any number of planets. The law of averages logically states that at least one of them will be home to advanced life, and if they've managed to avoid the numerous extinction events that we've had on this planet (remembering humans only started out 200,000 years ago in a universe billions of years old) then it's not a stretch to say they might have ray guns. Just think where we'll be in just another 1,000 years.
It is not "logical", it is reasonable to consider the possibility of life on other planets. I am open to this possibility, however since it cannot currently be proven either way and nor is there any logical foundation for such a claim it is also reasonable to consider that we may indeed be the first sentient and possibly most advanced race in the known universe (ignoring the possibility/complexity of multiverses/parallel universes). There "logically" has to be a first in any set of given events.
To argue the point of alien life forms more advanced to ourselves must in the current climate be attributed to a "faith" of sorts. Therefore this would discount the possibility of logic and you yourself have said are incompatible.
---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------
They are the same when one calls them a figment of ones imagination. other than that, what is the likely logical statement under the rules of logic that make one so much different to the other? :)
God may not exist. therefore he is and was as real as the fairies are to some. only difference being is that God was written about more than the fairies were.
In order for the statement to be logical fairies would have to share the same traits as god. Fairies are attributed generally to be magical beings, no religion has ever attributed such qualities to god, miraculous maybe. Also God is an omnipresence which Fairies are not. Point being I could go on all day citing the differences but 1+1 = 2 not 1+2=2.
It is not "logical", it is reasonable to consider the possibility of life on other planets. I am open to this possibility, however since it cannot currently be proven either way and nor is there any logical foundation for such a claim it is also reasonable to consider that we may indeed be the first sentient and possibly most advanced race in the known universe (ignoring the possibility/complexity of multiverses/parallel universes). There "logically" has to be a first in any set of given events.
To argue the point of alien life forms more advanced to ourselves must in the current climate be attributed to a "faith" of sorts. Therefore this would discount the possibility of logic and you yourself have said are incompatible.
How isn't it logical? It's based on inference, which is at the very heart of logic.
You cannot say for sure that there is other life forms, advanced or otherwise, however you can logically deduce that there very well may be.
You cannot do the same for God, therefore your point that saying that it's just as tenuous to say there is more chance that aliens exist than God does is clearly wrong.
The point that we don't know for sure doesn't make it faith based statement to talk about the possibility. Faith would be stating that you believe that there are ray gun wielding aliens in the universe. That has no evidence, and would be a statement of faith. However saying that there's more chance of ray gun wielding aliens than there is of God isn't faith based, it's based on inference. It doesn't say they are there, but that based on what we know, there could be.
mischievious
20-03-2009, 13:57
How isn't it logical? It's based on inference,
Inference based upon what premise?
That it is likely that there are Alien life forms superior to us which may weild ray guns?
I think it is outside of this particular debate but you cannot prove the inference nor measure it at this time. Since you cannot do either you are left with philosophical logic?
As I said previously you can logically prove something based upon a false premise, it doesn't make the out come true or right.
In order to be convinced you'll have to walk though the logical argument starting from your premise and ending with your logical conclusion.
downquark1
20-03-2009, 14:54
In order for the statement to be logical fairies would have to share the same traits as god. Fairies are attributed generally to be magical beings, no religion has ever attributed such qualities to god, miraculous maybe. Also God is an omnipresence which Fairies are not. Point being I could go on all day citing the differences but 1+1 = 2 not 1+2=2. What is the difference between magic and miracles?
---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------
In order to be convinced you'll have to walk though the logical argument starting from your premise and ending with your logical conclusion.
Premise: life exists on earth
Premise: There exist other planets like earth
postulate: No unique occurrence happened to begin life on earth
Conclusion: It is likely life exists on other planets.
Of course this is not a proof because it rests on the postulate being true.
It also (imho) depends on the second premise being true, and the definition of "life" - does all life have to be earth-like?
NASA (http://planetquest.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/overview_index.cfm)
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 15:21
What is the difference between magic and miracles?
magic is basically an illusion. a miracle is unexplainable.
Premise: life exists on earth
Premise: There exist other planets like earth
postulate: No unique occurrence happened to begin life on earth
Conclusion: It is likely life exists on other planets.
Of course this is not a proof because it rests on the postulate being true.
then is this not just a theory rather than a truth? you can't commit to one nor the other as we don't have any facts other than life does exist on earth.
the 'assumption' that other life exists at this time relies on your belief, or faith. much the same as those who believe in God and those who don't. neither know for sure.
downquark1
20-03-2009, 15:30
magic is basically an illusion. a miracle is unexplainable. Not in the context I was referencing. The context was that fairies exist and are magic.
then is this not just a theory rather than a truth? you can't commit to one nor the other as we don't have any facts other than life does exist on earth.
the 'assumption' that other life exists at this time relies on your belief, or faith. much the same as those who believe in God and those who don't. neither know for sure.
I have not committed to anything. I gave a logical argument for the existence of other life based on limited information.
then is this not just a theory rather than a truth?/Head explodes.
You know some people only consider their own existence to be truth and everything else a theory.
then is this not just a theory rather than a truth? you can't commit to one nor the other as we don't have any facts other than life does exist on earth.
the 'assumption' that other life exists at this time relies on your belief, or faith. much the same as those who believe in God and those who don't. neither know for sure.I believe in strict scientific parlance it's not even a theory, it's a hypothesis.
Incidentally, to answer a question someone asked earlier, the Bible doesn't say God hasn't created life elsewhere. Some Christians have inferred that and made a doctrine out of it (much the same as heliocentric creation, or flat earth creation, are not in the Bible but were nevertheless made points of dogma that gave the Pope a real headache when they were shown to be false).
I can't see my faith being dented if it is discovered.
That's all very well in theory but in practise it's a little different. Many atheists feel totally justified in telling the world that there's no God (it's their view, they're entitled to it) but if someone with faith proclaims their belief in God then suddenly they're "ramming it down people's throats" etc.
Not that there's supposed to be a competition but atheists get away with far more than people of faith when it comes to professing their beliefs.
Don't they just..and the other more easy going atheists are getting sick of it as we get lumped in with them..
I'm wondering if we can use the term fundamentalist atheist to describe the former? Don't know what my kind of atheist could be termed though...:D
Don't they just..and the other more easy going atheists are getting sick of it as we get lumped in with them..
I'm wondering if we can use the term fundamentalist atheist to describe the former? Don't know what my kind of atheist could be termed though...:D
Read my post about "ramming" Maggie!!!!
I like NOT to class anyone with any tag, what ever their belief, that is just rude and just not needed!:)
mischievious
20-03-2009, 19:25
I gave a logical argument for the existence of other life based on limited information.
I was a reasonable example and an attempt at a logical one but the logic didn't work. You failed to resolve a logical truth from it becasue you had set it up with dirty data.
You could have gone down the road of:
There is life on Earth
Bacteria has been discovered on Mars (Hence Life)
Therefore the is life on other planets.
I only take issue with the "logical likelyhood" of ray gun weilding aliens. The example by TheDon given previously was a myriad of stepping stones in logic which was reasonable but not logical per se. The initial premise led from one maybe statement to another much like chinese whispers.
I agree that it is likely that sentient existence exists on one or more planets in the universe.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-450467/Found-20-light-years-away-New-Earth.html
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 19:33
Don't they just..and the other more easy going atheists are getting sick of it as we get lumped in with them..
I'm wondering if we can use the term fundamentalist atheist to describe the former? Don't know what my kind of atheist could be termed though...:D
you forgot to mention those of us who class ourselves as agnostic in one form or another!
Love the definition of an apathetic Agnostic -
"the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic"
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 19:41
Love the definition of an apathetic Agnostic -
"the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic"
spot on - perhaps some people are looking for something to sway them one way or the other?
you forgot to mention those of us who class ourselves as agnostic in one form or another!
Sitting on the fence again...;)
mischievious
20-03-2009, 19:57
Personally fence sitting seems best in this regard.
It is so far the only logical answer, until a new entity is entered into the debate which is able to resolve the situation.
Since no logical Truth can be achieved from Religion nor Atheism the only logical conclusion is Agnostisism. I suspect that this comes under intuitive logic :p:
Do or do not - there is no try......
Raistlin
20-03-2009, 20:25
There is no spoon.
downquark1
20-03-2009, 20:28
I was a reasonable example and an attempt at a logical one but the logic didn't work. You failed to resolve a logical truth from it becasue you had set it up with dirty data.
You could have gone down the road of:
There is life on Earth
Bacteria has been discovered on Mars (Hence Life)
Therefore the is life on other planets.
I only take issue with the "logical likelyhood" of ray gun weilding aliens. The example by TheDon given previously was a myriad of stepping stones in logic which was reasonable but not logical per se. The initial premise led from one maybe statement to another much like chinese whispers.
I agree that it is likely that sentient existence exists on one or more planets in the universe.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-450467/Found-20-light-years-away-New-Earth.html
I was not attempting to attain a final truth, note the words "likely". Being a staunch empiricist I would demand observational verification at which point the logical argument becomes rather moot.
Since no logical Truth can be achieved from Religion nor Atheism the only logical conclusion is Agnostisism. I suspect that this comes under intuitive logic Ah the old hard atheist trick.
Well this is mainly an issue of semantics, but theism and atheism tend be statements of belief while gnosticism and agnosticism are statements of knowledge. So they are not mutually exclusive.
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 20:30
Sitting on the fence again...;)
in contrast to a situation whereby there is a lot of interesting 'evidence' pointing in both directions, this topic has NO conclusive evidence in either direction.
how can one possibly make an informed decision on the truth of the matter when the matter is based on a faith to either follow or not to? faith, as already mentioned in this thread, does not follow the laws of logic - which requires an element of proven knowledge in order to come to a conclusion.
I do believe there is something far greater than ourselves that exists as a force or being in the universe. but with regards to what it's influence on us is in a physical sense, the form it takes or the powers it possesses, I really don't know. I think it would be naive to think that this planet is the only one to harbour the force of life. as we already know, microbes have been found on Mars. but we simply do not know if we are the most advanced form of life in our universe. likewise, we don't know if Earth holds essentially the most primative life.
so tell me, do you believe Maggy, or do you not? and more to the point, what are you basing that decision on? I would be very surprised if you can answer that without refering to terms such as 'belief', 'faith', 'feel' or 'think' as none of these are based on logic when the context is an internal emotion, which is essentially the driving force behind whether you follow God or not whole-heartedly. unless of course, you are agnostic... in which case, logic holds a higher presidence in you decision making.
Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.
Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?
You can only make an informed decision on, is God real or not, by looking into it for your self, and not by a few(?) posts on a forum topic!
downquark1
20-03-2009, 20:39
Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.
Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?
Given any number of premises it is perfectly logical. Your premises seems to be that the 2 lives are higher than that of the child, who decided that each life is equally valued?
Logic does not give you an ultimate goal it only gives you a means. This is why spock is not "logical"
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 20:42
Ah, logic - the reason why two or more people will run into a burning building to save a child.
Oh, sorry - no it isn't, is it?
humans are driven by basic instinct, like many animals. one of these instincts that we possess is to preserve and continue own gene line. this is a very strong instinct. second is to ensure the young grow strong in the clan in order that it may continue to flourish and aid and protect the elders.
yes. logic is the reason.
---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------
You can only make an informed decision on, is God real or not, by looking into it for your self, and not by a few(?) posts on a forum topic!
an informed decision is no necessarily one based on the truth though. which ever side you look into, the conclusions found will be based on the authors opinion, not on hard, physical evidence. this is why it is called 'faith'.
I'd like to know how some find God when the odds are against them. When things go really tits up they believe or find something out of nowhere. If logic applied there then they'd go the other way even more.
Ok the odds seems to be stacked against myself, it's these times where I find the terms 'it's God will or it's a test' totally condescending.
Too impossible to figure out, maybe that's the trouble I don't know.
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 20:50
logic and faith are at opposite ends of the scale. they will never likely meet. this is why I'm finding this fascinating.
Which authors opinion Bender?
---------- Post added at 21:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------
I'd like to know how some find God when the odds are against them. When things go really tits up they believe or find something out of nowhere. If logic applied there then they'd go the other way even more.
Ok the odds seems to be stacked against myself, it's these times where I find the terms 'it's God will or it's a test' totally condescending.
Too impossible to figure out, maybe that's the trouble I don't know.
Yes, thats does appear to happen!
Paul Gascoigne being the latest celeb to of found God!
Was God ever lost?;)
I think its just when things happen in folks lives, they start to think a bit more deeply about "whats it all about, why are we here, is this all there is" and such like stuff.
downquark1
20-03-2009, 21:14
To expand my point, this is why Voltaire said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
A lot of religious fundamentalists are being perfectly logically given their premises (i.e. what they believe).
mischievious
20-03-2009, 21:18
I was not attempting to attain a final truth, note the words "likely". Being a staunch empiricist I would demand observational verification at which point the logical argument becomes rather moot.
As an empiricist I applaud you. In fact we are arguing the same point from different angles in regard to life (not the ray gun wielding ones though), intuistic logic would allow your statement to be true if the example given were better. Logic is simply a tool not the only tool we have, but a good one to derive truth from certain statements.
Ah the old hard atheist trick.
Sorry you'll need to clarify that statement, How or why would an atheist use that argument to support atheism??? It only supports agnosticism...
Well this is mainly an issue of semantics, but theism and atheism tend be statements of belief while gnosticism and agnosticism are statements of knowledge. So they are not mutually exclusive.
Again, how is agnosticism a statement of knowledge? From where I am is a lack of knowledge not the other way around.
Given any number of premises it is perfectly logical. Your premises seems to be that the 2 lives are higher than that of the child, who decided that each life is equally valued?
Logic does not give you an ultimate goal it only gives you a means. This is why spock is not "logical"
I think you misunderstand, his point did not involve logic in the statement. He has no premise, it was an observation to highlight the lack of logic in such a situation.
I don't believe the intention was to engage in a logical debate.
For the record this is fabulous, from the start it was assumed that it would degenerate into a mob fest, however this is probably the most "grown up" discussion I have had the privilige to be involved in. :)
downquark1
20-03-2009, 21:22
Sorry you'll need to clarify that statement, How or why would an atheist use that argument to support atheism??? It only supports agnosticism...
Gnosticism = I know
Agnosticism = I don't know
Theism = I believe
Atheism = I don't believe
Using the Plato definitions of knowledge and belief you can "not know" something but "believe it" or "not know" something and "disbelief it".
Of course that then raises the question of when you can say you know, but that's another discussion.
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 21:27
Which authors opinion Bender?
the author who speaks to you in voice or print regarding the existance of God. it was not meant as a specific, but a covering generalisation. basically, anyone who puts down their word or voices their opinion should be considered the author of that which is said or scribed! :)
---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:23 ----------
Gnosticism = I know
Agnosticism = I don't know
Theism = I believe
Atheism = I don't believe
Using the Plato definitions of knowledge and belief you can not know something but believe it or not know something and disbelief it.
Of course that then raises the question of when you can say you know, but that's another discussion.
hmm, not so - agnostic theism is a recognised form of agnosticism. google it.
check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) for a starter
downquark1
20-03-2009, 21:32
hmm, not so - agnostic theism is a recognised form of agnosticism. google it.
check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) for a starter
I know, I never said otherwise. I know someone who describes himself as such
idi banashapan
20-03-2009, 22:39
So what was this in aid of then?....
Gnosticism = I know
Agnosticism = I don't know
Theism = I believe
Atheism = I don't believe
Using the Plato definitions of knowledge and belief you can "not know" something but "believe it" or "not know" something and "disbelief it".
EDIT - my bad - I read your original post wrong regarding Platos definitions! sorry.
humans are driven by basic instinct, like many animals. one of these instincts that we possess is to preserve and continue own gene line. this is a very strong instinct. second is to ensure the young grow strong in the clan in order that it may continue to flourish and aid and protect the elders.
yes. logic is the reason.
snippety snip snip
.
You appear (imho) to be confusing deductive and inductive reasoning. ;)
Surely it is more logical for two productive adults, who contribute more to society than a child and can produce more children, to survive, rather than a single child (btw, people tend not to live in "clans" anymore) - you often hear in the news of total strangers going into buildings to save people they don't know. Example1 (http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/News/Passer-By-Saves-3-Cincinnati-Children-from-Fire/46$53997) Example2 (http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/News/Three-Arkansas-Children-Home-Alone-Saved-From-Fire-Moms-Arrested/46$39968)
What a lot of verbose tripe, it was every three months that someone would ask a seemingly innocent question and set all this off again.
In my opinion this Christian bating should be banned as it causes a lot of upset to people such as my self who do believe, but as I well know there is no way on earth that you can shake or disprove my belief.
Now go along and get a life. Peace be with you :angel:
But its only baiting if you rise to it surely?
A defence of ones own personal beliefs should always be allowed to happen, as should views fron the non believers side, I have not personally taken offence at any of the type in the posts at all.
Havent seen anyone been thrown to the lions ........YET!! ;):)
idi banashapan
21-03-2009, 14:58
What a lot of verbose tripe, it was every three months that someone would ask a seemingly innocent question and set all this off again.
In my opinion this Christian bating should be banned as it causes a lot of upset to people such as my self who do believe, but as I well know there is no way on earth that you can shake or disprove my belief.
you've made it quite obvious that you have not read the entire thread by posting that. if you had, you would have read my comments in post 68 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34757207-post64.html) with regards to the fact I am in no way trying to upset anyones belief, nor poo-poo God, nor convert anyone to think differently.
The very first post should have explained the reason I started the thread, but perhaps you saw the title, then posted an immediate defensive comment. No one should feel the need to defend themselves here as I am posing absolutely no threat at all. as I say, if you read the thread front to back, you will discover my motives.
everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. it makes no odds to me what they believe. I was trying to better my understanding of why people choose to believe what they do and to try and find some reasoning behind it. Personally, I am a logical thinker. logic and faith are at opposite ends of the scale, which makes this all very intruiging to me. I would class myself as an 'agnostic theist', so I am in no position to rubbish peoples beliefs. it also, in a way, contradicts my own thinking that I think logically, yet would like to believe in something that cannot be explained.
please try not to make a war out of peace here.
Now go along and get a life.
that's not very christian, is it?
But its only baiting if you rise to it surely?
A defence of ones own personal beliefs should always be allowed to happen, as should views fron the non believers side, I have not personally taken offence at any of the type in the posts at all.
Havent seen anyone been thrown to the lions ........YET!! ;):)
It's early days yet...;)
dilli-theclaw
21-03-2009, 15:28
I think I'd have to draw the line at throwing people to the lions.
MMMmmm - ok I'd have to draw the line at throwing /some/ people to the lions.
...In my opinion this Christian bating should be banned as it causes a lot of upset to people such as my self who do believe, ...
1. It isn't only Christians who believe in God.
2. Why do you get upset? Don't you see it as an opportunity to share your faith with others?
---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:42 ----------
No, it's faith. ....
This is an interesting point. For example, a Christian might argue that Jesus was a real person, and had "supernatural" powers (such as raising the dead). He might point to the Bible as his source of evidence. Not an ideal source, but you have to bear in mind the events happened more than two centuries ago.
In this example, the Christian is arguing that the theory for the existence of God is based on evidence - not faith.
I find it much harder to argue against this type of reasoning (based on some evidence) than a belief based on blind faith (e.g. fairies at the bottom of my garden).
idi banashapan
21-03-2009, 16:03
Not an ideal source, but you have to bear in mind the events happened more than two centuries ago.
or two millenia! ;)
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 16:20
i notice as these god threads progress the words get bigger [and the sentences more complex ]
but the evidence is still not forthcoming ;)
i notice as these god threads progress the words get bigger [and the sentences more complex ]
but the evidence is still not forthcoming ;)
Ah right you mean the evidence that we keep telling you does not exist?
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 17:40
Ah right you mean the evidence that we keep telling you does not exist?
i see GOD EXISTS because you have no evidence of said existence, clear as mud :tu:
i see GOD EXISTS because you have no evidence of said existence, clear as mud :tu:
:banghead:
In the words of Pontius Pilot, "I wash my hands of this man".
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 18:14
:banghead:
In the words of Pontius Pilot, "I wash my hands of this man".
in a muddy stream probably .
If you don't understand it now, after it's been explained possibly hundreds of time, you'll never get it. Of course if you don't want to understand it (as I suspect) then this will go on forever.
If you don't understand it now, after it's been explained possibly hundreds of time, you'll never get it. Of course if you don't want to understand it (as I suspect) then this will go on forever.
That will work. telling somebody that they don't understand because they don't want to understand :)
That will work. telling somebody that they don't understand because they don't want to understand :)
erm, no - Russ have previously many times explained his views; I think (imho) that he is stating perhaps those views are not being read, and if they are not, they will not be understood.
erm, no - Russ have previously many times explained his views; I think (imho) that he is stating perhaps those views are not being read, and if they are not, they will not be understood.
QFT
:clap:
erm, no - Russ have previously many times explained his views; I think (imho) that he is stating perhaps those views are not being read, and if they are not, they will not be understood.
I can't remember what his views were now. I'm mostly interested in my own :)
idi banashapan
22-03-2009, 18:39
you'd think though, that if people were sick of these threads, they just wouldn't bother posting to them. so why do they?
I can't remember what his views were now. I'm mostly interested in my own :)
No - really?
---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:40 ----------
you'd think though, that if people were sick of these threads, they just wouldn't bother posting to them. so why do they?
God moves in mysterious ways (much like me after a few tinctures) :D
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 18:43
If you don't understand it now, after it's been explained possibly hundreds of time, you'll never get it. Of course if you don't want to understand it (as I suspect) then this will go on forever.
the old - dammant quod non intelligunt- chestnut ;)
you'd think though, that if people were sick of these threads, they just wouldn't bother posting to them. so why do they?
To tell you that you're wrong and they're right :)
To tell you that you're wrong and they're right :)
And, imho, that sums up your attitude in one small sentence, Gary. ;)
The belief in a deity and its associated religion has lead to more death, misery and suffering than any other virtually anything else on the planet.
And, imho, that sums up your attitude in one small sentence, Gary. ;)
Well just goes to show what ignorance is then :)
I take it you agree with my suggestion to Bender?
idi banashapan
22-03-2009, 19:11
The belief in a deity and its associated religion has lead to more death, misery and suffering than any other virtually anything else on the planet.
for all things said for and against religion, this comment I do think holds a lot of truth.
for all things said for and against religion, this comment I do think holds a lot of truth.
Possiblly it maybe but can I point out that history is littered with people of faith who stood up against inhumanity,torture,racism,genocide,war,hatred and there are those who have used their faith to achieve a balancing out against man's cruelty to others to feed,clothe,succour the victims of that cruelty...
Possiblly it maybe but can I point out that history is littered with people of faith who stood up against inhumanity,torture,racism,genocide,war,hatred and there are those who have used their faith to achieve a balancing out against man's cruelty to others to feed,clothe,succour the victims of that cruelty...
Good point.
You wouldn't see that from a belief in fairies would you :)
idi banashapan
22-03-2009, 20:04
Possiblly it maybe but can I point out that history is littered with people of faith who stood up against inhumanity,torture,racism,genocide,war,hatred and there are those who have used their faith to achieve a balancing out against man's cruelty to others to feed,clothe,succour the victims of that cruelty...
absolutely, but the commet still holds a lot of truth.
Well just goes to show what ignorance is then :)
I take it you agree with my suggestion to Bender?
You show it very well..... ;)
You can take whatever you want, wherever you want, Gary - but you should not presume to know what others agree with.
Read the bible, judge for yourselves, keep an open mind, never be swayed like I once was by other peoples view points.
Make an informed decision for yourself........but only if that is what you wish to do.
Until that day, leave each to their own to get on with believing in God.
Read the bible, judge for yourselves, keep an open mind, never be swayed like I once was by other peoples view points.
Make an informed decision for yourself........but only if that is what you wish to do.
Until that day, leave each to their own to get on with believing in God.
Not to be rude Lucy, but how would reading a bible help you judge?
The bible and God are both the same thing really. only one is far fetched more than the other to some.
It's like your big sister that likes fairies telling you to read a book about fairies. does she expect you to now become a believer just because you liked the ending?
The belief in a deity and its associated religion has lead to more death, misery and suffering than any other virtually anything else on the planet.
A very true statment, as many so called believers in God do in fact go to war against their fellow man, and persecute one another in the name of their own religion, even amongst the Christians.
It happened centuries ago, and does to this very day, the evidence is around for us all to see.
This does in fact go against what the bible preaches.
---------- Post added at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------
Not to be rude Lucy, but how would reading a bible help you judge?
The bible and God are both the same thing really. only one is far fetched more than the other to some.
Thats not rude at all Gary.
The bible is Gods word, in written form!
If you believe that of course!!!
It was once far fetched to me, I was bought up by non believers, that is what I was taught by them, there was no God.
Adult hood, and a whats it all about attitude made me ask questions to myself, and I started reading The Bible.
It confused the heck out of me, especialy the old stuff!! Down right scary infact!
Searched deeper, went to the history books, checked stuff out for myself, and my mind started wondering more, did God create or are we from Monkeys!!!!
The evidence in The Bible, and the history books was enough for me, and then of course it does go in to deeper things as well..........so short story is, from one fetched up by atheists, I am one of those through my own investigation, became to believe in creation by a inteligent designer!!!
I love monkeys though!!;):)
The belief in a deity and its associated religion has lead to more death, misery and suffering than any other virtually anything else on the planet.
That's very true Elsie, and very sad as well. Mind you, the invention of the motor car and the fact that almost every adult in the western world now owns one causes more death misery and suffering in Western countries than anything else - including war, for the time being at least.
Nevertheless, I trust you would agree that the remedy for this is for people to use their cars responsibly, within the law, as they were intended to be used, rather than to declare cars to be somehow wrong and to be avoided?
Thats not rude at all Gary.
The bible is Gods word, in written form!
If you believe that of course!!!
No :)
It was once far fetched to me, I was bought up by non believers, that is what I was taught by them, there was no God.
I went to Sunday school for a couple of years. so I was the opposite really. my parents never had a view, and still don't I suppose. I made up my own mind from an early age really.
Searched deeper, went to the history books, checked stuff out for myself, and my mind started wondering more, did God create or are we from Monkeys!!!!
The evidence in The Bible, and the history books was enough for me, and then of course it does go in to deeper things as well..........so short story is, from one fetched up by atheists, I am one of those through my own investigation, became to believe in creation by a inteligent designer!!!
When you say evidence. what was written/told to you in the Bible and books. made you a believer?
I suppose it has to be that for everyone. be they a believer or non believer. apart from the spoken word such as in Sunday school.
I love monkeys though!!;):)
I love pussy
cats. :)
TheDaddy
22-03-2009, 21:00
A very true statment, as many so called believers in God do in fact go to war against their fellow man, and persecute one another in the name of their own religion, even amongst the Christians.
It happened centuries ago, and does to this very day, the evidence is around for us all to see.
How many times have people gone to war over religion? Very rarely, greedy, power hungry rulers have used religion for their own ends to rabble rouse for sure but for things like gold, land and protection of their own interests rather than a belief in God, when you scratch the surface even things like the crusades and the Spanish inquisition prove Elsie's statement to be untrue in the main, that's not to say awful things haven't happened in the name of religion, just to say they aren't at all common as people think.
rogerdraig
22-03-2009, 21:48
i notice as these god threads progress the words get bigger [and the sentences more complex ]
but the evidence is still not forthcoming ;)
what evidence do you want exactly ?
what evidence do you want exactly ?
Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.
The belief in a deity and its associated religion has lead to more death, misery and suffering than any other virtually anything else on the planet.
I thought malaria was the biggest killer of people (at the moment, anyway). Mind you, there are some pretty nasty nematode worms eager to take the trophy. Aided by malnutrition and hunger, of course.
Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.
Richard is back on the forum........;)
Richard is back on the forum........;)
Who's Richard?
No :)
I went to Sunday school for a couple of years. so I was the opposite really. my parents never had a view, and still don't I suppose. I made up my own mind from an early age really.
When you say evidence. what was written/told to you in the Bible and books. made you a believer?
I suppose it has to be that for everyone. be they a believer or non believer. apart from the spoken word such as in Sunday school.
I love pussy
cats. :)
You naughty man!
Breaking up the I love pussy cats ....on to 2 seperate lines!!:)
Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.
The Bible suggests that a lot of people couldn't bring themselves to believe even though they did see miracles. I can't see why it would be any different today.
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 22:12
what evidence do you want exactly ?
something based on facts/evidence -and please do show the working out
dna would be nice
personal appearance
even a single atom of GOD
the parting of the river Humber
what i dont want is more stories /its faith so its true /read this book it explains every thing
i like facts backed up by evidence/data , but i know there not on offer ,believing something is true does not make it true ,well not in my corner of the world ,and please dont do a story about motor cars ;)
Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.
Searching the archives as I type for suitable footage for you Gary!;)
Who's Richard?
You are (imho) :D
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 22:18
Searching the archives as I type for suitable footage for you Gary!;)
why did no one else think of that
mischievious
22-03-2009, 22:19
Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.
Define a miracle you would believe in?
To clarify the smallest kind of miracle, do you not attribute "life" the term miraculous and if not what?
You naughty man!
Breaking up the I love pussy cats ....on to 2 seperate lines!!:)
Well I like them both ;)
why did no one else think of that
Coz you not as intelligent as this blonde woman, thats why!!!;):)
The Bible suggests that a lot of people couldn't bring themselves to believe even though they did see miracles. I can't see why it would be any different today.
Apart from the Bible possibly not being true. we're more advanced today than then. and would be able to make a quick decision as to whether the miracle being performed is sufficient enough as proof?
You have to see it as when you say to me The Bible suggests.. to me it's like you saying to me My Dad says..
doesn't mean it's true to me just because it is to you.
TheDaddy
22-03-2009, 22:23
something based on facts/evidence -and please do show the working out
dna would be nice
personal appearance
even a single atom of GOD
the parting of the river Humber
what i dont want is more stories /its faith so its true /read this book it explains every thing
i like facts backed up by evidence/data , but i know there not on offer ,believing something is true does not make it true ,well not in my corner of the world ,and please dont do a story about motor cars ;)
They don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter, their faith works for them, no one is trying to convert anyone here so if anything the onus is on 'you' to prove God doesn't exist imo
Searching the archives as I type for suitable footage for you Gary!;)
You should have said you did requests. I've got a couple :)
---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------
Define a miracle you would believe in?
To clarify the smallest kind of miracle, do you not attribute "life" the term miraculous and if not what?
I honestly wouldn't define life as a miracle. is a seed growing into a tree a miracle?
I think a miracle would have to be some kind of really good magic that is just not possible to do. not cards though I hate card tricks.
mischievious
22-03-2009, 22:33
I wondered previously at Maggy and Russ comments concerning Atheists have it easy.
Now I see why but the reason as far as I can tell is because people of faith allow atheists to take the armchair approach. The Atheists here have a solid I don't believe you approach to whatever a person of faith offers. What do Atheists offer apart from I don't believe?
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 22:34
They don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter, their faith works for them, no one is trying to convert anyone here so if anything the onus is on 'you' to prove God doesn't exist imo
imo the thread title is
The existence of God---not the none existence of .... so i think you've got the proof thing the wrong way around ,and if something does not exist how can i produce evidence of its non existence such evidence would not exist.
mischievious
22-03-2009, 22:39
I honestly wouldn't define life as a miracle. is a seed growing into a tree a miracle?
I think a miracle would have to be some kind of really good magic that is just not possible to do. not cards though I hate card tricks.
For all scientists posturing though it is still not possible to define the spark of life. We can mutate and replicate through playing with the raw ingredients, we cannot currently create the conditions from scratch ourselves. Why it this rejectable as really good magic.
I have never seen a seed play cards, though I have seen a seedy deck :D
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 22:43
For all scientists posturing though it is still not possible to define the spark of life. We can mutate and replicate through playing with the raw ingredients, we cannot currently create the conditions from scratch ourselves. Why it this rejectable as really good magic.
I have never seen a seed play cards, though I have seen a seedy deck :D
I seen a peanut stand, heard a rubber band
I seen a needle that winked its eye
But I be done seen 'bout ev'rything
When I see a elephant fly
mischievious
22-03-2009, 22:47
imo the thread title is
The existence of God---not the none existence of .... so i think you've got the proof thing the wrong way around ,and if something does not exist how can i produce evidence of its non existence such evidence would not exist.
Get out clause central, papa smurf getting off ;)
A discussion concerning the existence of god would also include the non existence. The discussion title suggests that existence has not been established and therefore in order to discuss, persons from all angles would be required. The thread was not entitled "Persons o faith willing to be abused over their belief this way" either. Proof of anything was not required by the thread title.
---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:45 ----------
I seen a peanut stand, heard a rubber band
I seen a needle that winked its eye
But I be done seen 'bout ev'rything
When I see a elephant fly
That was a disney film not a documentary ;)
imo the thread title is
The existence of God---not the none existence of .... so i think you've got the proof thing the wrong way around ,and if something does not exist how can i produce evidence of its non existence such evidence would not exist.
You could always pray to a rock and then pray to God. see which one answers :)
If the rock answers I want to use it as the miracle.
mischievious
22-03-2009, 22:53
You could always pray to a rock and then pray to God. see which one answers :)
I think you simplify too much, I don't believe that the concept of GOD is an answering service....
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 22:55
You could always pray to a rock and then pray to God. see which one answers :)
If the rock answers I want to use it as the miracle.
but if God answers you get a rubber room
I think you simplify too much, I don't believe that the concept of GOD is an answering service....
Isn't it said that he answers all prayers?
mischievious
22-03-2009, 23:02
but if God answers you get a rubber room
LOL! So you don't speak to a doctor you speak to a priest/vicar etc. though would he/she believe you?
papa smurf
22-03-2009, 23:03
Isn't it said that he answers all prayers?
i think the saying is hears all ... not answers all , it would be a funny old world if 90% of its people where claiming to be having a rapport with God
mischievious
22-03-2009, 23:09
Isn't it said that he answers all prayers?
It might do, I'm not an expert but even if it did does it give any expectation of time or how the answer will come?
The answer could be in the form an action e.g.
There was a man called him Jim, who lived near a river. Jim was a very religious man.
One day, the river rose over the banks and flooded the town, and Jim was forced to climb onto his porch roof. While sitting there, a man in a boat comes along and tells Jim to get in the boat with him. Jim says "No, that's ok. God will take care of me." So, the man in the boat drives off.
The water rises, so Jim climbs onto his roof. At that time, another boat comes along and the person in that one tells Jim to get in. Jim replies, "No, that's ok. God will take care of me." The person in the boat then leaves.
The water rises even more, and Jim climbs on his chimney. Then a helicopter comes and lowers a ladder. The woman in the helicopter tells Jim to climb up the ladder and get in. Jim tells her "That's ok." The woman says "Are you sure?" Jim says, "Yeah, I'm sure God will take care of me.
Finally, the water rises too high and Jim drowns. Jim gets up to Heaven and is face-to-face with God. Jim says to God "You told me you would take care of me!
What happened?"
God replied "Well, I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What else did you want?"
i think the saying is hears all ... not answers all
Isn't the hear my prayers just the song?
Found the get out clause in the contract.
God does not promise to hear the prayer of the unbelieving person. So, here is the first thing to ask yourself: “Am I a believer?”
Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.”
Proverbs 15:29 “The LORD is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous.”
it would be a funny old world if 90% of its people where claiming to be having a rapport with God
It would be a bit crazy.
absolutely, but the commet still holds a lot of truth.
Possibly but how many times has religion been made the scapegoat for bad behaviour when in reality it's been man's greed that instigates wars..indeed those so called crusades that were to reclaim the holy land(which we never owned in the first place) were nothing more than an excuse to exploit the situation to extract anything of value in any way possible including hostage taking for monetary gain...
LondonRoad
22-03-2009, 23:22
Possibly but how many times has religion been made the scapegoat for bad behaviour when in reality it's been man's greed that instigates wars..indeed those so called crusades that were to reclaim the holy land(which we never owned in the first place) were nothing more than an excuse to exploit the situation to extract anything of value in any way possible including hostage taking for monetary gain...
Too right. It's often misconstrued that the vast majority of human lives lost (in war) is due to wars in the name of religion.
The truth is warmongers of any religion usually have their own agenda which is conveniently fought under the religious flag.
mischievious
22-03-2009, 23:23
Possibly but how many times has religion been made the scapegoat for bad behaviour when in reality it's been man's greed that instigates wars..indeed those so called crusades that were to reclaim the holy land(which we never owned in the first place) were nothing more than an excuse to exploit the situation to extract anything of value in any way possible including hostage taking for monetary gain...
Maggy what is it with you and Bender? You seem to like each other very much :D
LOL at the joke.
What joke Gary.......that was real!!!!
I laughed too!:)
rogerdraig
22-03-2009, 23:27
Is photos or CCTV footage asking for too much?
Or a plain old fashioned miracle.
but then there wouldnt be a fair choice would there
do you want to follow the god giving you and demonstrating his all powerfulness
or
follow the devil off into destruction
the choice as Christians see it from the bible is harder will you follow on a promise of a good life later a life now that has rules and obligations with no reward other than that you feel happy that you are doing good
or
follow the world and do as you feel you want to not worrying what others want etc
the original post seemed to me to be asking or stating that there would be no pain and suffering if god existed i posted my points on that back a few pages
as to proof i could go into great detail on prophecies we see as being fulfilled and even the state the world is now in today see ( mathew 24 )
but even these to some take faith to believe that the bible was written by god ( or by the direction of god to be more precise )
LondonRoad
22-03-2009, 23:28
What joke Gary.......that was real!!!!
I laughed too!:)
So did I. In a nostalgic sort of way;)
First heard David Copperfield ( comic from 3 of a kind - not magician ) tell it over 30 years ago.
It's still a few years younger than most of my jokes though. :)
What joke Gary.......that was real!!!!
I laughed too!:)
The one about the 2 boats and an helicopter.
it didn't quote properly.
:nutter: :)
Maggy what is it with you and Bender? You seem to like each other very much :D
And you seem to like sitting in his pocket...;)
I wondered previously at Maggy and Russ comments concerning Atheists have it easy.
Now I see why but the reason as far as I can tell is because people of faith allow atheists to take the armchair approach. The Atheists here have a solid I don't believe you approach to whatever a person of faith offers. What do Atheists offer apart from I don't believe?
That is an atheists right Mischevious, they dont have to believe or offer up any evidence against.
It is possibly easier for them, as they do not have to speak up for what us believers see as Bible truth, when ones pesonal belief in God is challenged, or maybe a better word is, questioned.
So did I. In a nostalgic sort of way;)
First heard David Copperfield ( comic from 3 of a kind - not magician ) tell it over 30 years ago.
It's still a few years younger than most of my jokes though. :)
Somebody really did go to heaven and speak to God?
The one about the 2 boats and an helicopter.
it didn't quote properly.
:nutter: :)
Whos a nutter???
Name calling now are we??
Help, this Christian is being persecuted!! :D:angel:;)
Apart from the Bible possibly not being true. we're more advanced today than then. and would be able to make a quick decision as to whether the miracle being performed is sufficient enough as proof?
You have to see it as when you say to me The Bible suggests.. to me it's like you saying to me My Dad says..
doesn't mean it's true to me just because it is to you.
Far be it from me to get into a circular argument. I don't expect you to believe in the Bible. But I do, so I take it seriously when it tells me that plenty of people witnessed miracles and yet failed to believe in Jesus as a result. NB by 'believe in' I don't mean 'accept the existence of', I mean believe his teaching, trust him, follow him, etc.
I wouldn't attempt to persuade you with miracles because I don't believe it would make a difference to you. Even if a miraculous event caused you to concede the point that God might exist, or even go so far as to accept that he does exist, accepting that God exists doesn't get you anywhere. Unashamed Bible quotation: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
God isn't looking for people to concede an intellectual point. He's looking for people who will get into relationship with him, trust him, obey him and worship him.
mischievious
22-03-2009, 23:42
And you seem to like sitting in his pocket...;)
Nope sorry you're wrong there, I have my own thoughts on things.
Whos a nutter???
Name calling now are we??
Don't say that. you'll get me arrested :)
Help, this Christian is being persecuted!! :D:angel:;)
Who's nicked the devil smilie from the list?
Forum posts are never going to be a way to get people to understand about if God exists or not.
They get people who want to think about it more deeply, thinking more deeply!
Others will just think, what a load of typists going over board with their thoughts on religion.
I would repeat, if any one really wants to know more, do it by personally looking into it all, and check things out for yourself.
Or just wait till I knock on your door!!!!
:);)
Far be it from me to get into a circular argument. I don't expect you to believe in the Bible. But I do, so I take it seriously when it tells me that plenty of people witnessed miracles and yet failed to believe in Jesus as a result. NB by 'believe in' I don't mean 'accept the existence of', I mean believe his teaching, trust him, follow him, etc.
It's all about belief.
I wouldn't attempt to persuade you with miracles because I don't believe it would make a difference to you. Even if a miraculous event caused you to concede the point that God might exist, or even go so far as to accept that he does exist, accepting that God exists doesn't get you anywhere. Unashamed Bible quotation: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
They would have to be new miracles. not the ones from the Bible.
God isn't looking for people to concede an intellectual point. He's looking for people who will get into relationship with him, trust him, obey him and worship him.
He has them kind of people now.
---------- Post added at 23:55 ---------- Previous post was at 23:54 ----------
Or just wait till I knock on your door!!!!
:);)
I need converting :D
It's all about belief.
You're absolutely right. And you can't borrow someone else's belief. Everyone who has a relationship with God has their own, personal to them. But belief and faith are not blind or unproven. If I choose to take a ride on a zip wire, it's because I believe it is well made enough to take my weight. But once I put my trust in the equpment, that trust is tested and proven. It's not dissimilar with God. He's not a theoretical entity; to those who have believed and trusted in him he has shown himself to be close at hand and very real.
They would have to be new miracles. not the ones from the Bible. Yes, I assumed that's what you meant.
He has them kind of people now.
And yet he still wants you. ;)
You sure do Gary!
One day, maybe!
Goodnight all, God bless, sweet dreams, my bed is calling me.
And yet he still wants you. ;)
Tell him to join the queue :)
---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------
You sure do Gary!
One day, maybe!
Goodnight all, God bless, sweet dreams, my bed is calling me.
I swear I heard someone calling my name too :)
That is an atheists right Mischevious, they dont have to believe or offer up any evidence against.
It is possibly easier for them, as they do not have to speak up for what us believers see as Bible truth, when ones pesonal belief in God is challenged, or maybe a better word is, questioned.
Easier?Hmmm! I dunno about that..could be that it's harder to explain everything scientifically when there is as yet no scientific proof for every circumstance whereas those of faith can simply say I believe in spite of there being no proof of what they believe.
Hope that makes sense..I really should be in bed...;)
TheDaddy
23-03-2009, 05:57
Possibly but how many times has religion been made the scapegoat for bad behaviour when in reality it's been man's greed that instigates wars..indeed those so called crusades that were to reclaim the holy land(which we never owned in the first place) were nothing more than an excuse to exploit the situation to extract anything of value in any way possible including hostage taking for monetary gain...
The crusades cause was due to the expansionist Seljuk Turks threatening Byzantine Constantinople, nothing at all to do with religion, however what happened later like the Jerusalem massacre, the Children's crusade and Peter the Hermit's crusade were sadly caused by religious zeal alone.
The crusades cause was due to the expansionist Seljuk Turks threatening Byzantine Constantinople, nothing at all to do with religion, however what happened later like the Jerusalem massacre, the Children's crusade and Peter the Hermit's crusade were sadly caused by religious zeal alone.
Actually I rather think the Children's Crusade was a cruel financial venture on the part of some wily slavers...Indeed there is some doubt as to the truth of these incidents..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade
Also I doubt that every member of any of the crusading armies were there purely for converting Muslims..they were there for what profit they could make..especially in opening up trade routes...
Sad how the pacifist religion of Christ got twisted by later generations into an 'army of God' when Jesus's emphasis was on the 10 commandments, especially that of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.:(
TheDaddy
23-03-2009, 13:32
Actually I rather think the Children's Crusade was a cruel financial venture on the part of some wily slavers...Indeed there is some doubt as to the truth of these incidents..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade
Also I doubt that every member of any of the crusading armies were there purely for converting Muslims..they were there for what profit they could make..especially in opening up trade routes...
Sad how the pacifist religion of Christ got twisted by later generations into an 'army of God' when Jesus's emphasis was on the 10 commandments, especially that of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.:(
I actually meant the parents thinking it was a good idea letting their children go in the first place!
I actually meant the parents thinking it was a good idea letting their children go in the first place!
Well it's apparently a misunderstanding over the word used to describe children in the original crusade..it may not have meant children but the poor that wandered nomadically through Europe at the time...So no parental permission needed...:)
TheDaddy
23-03-2009, 14:40
Well it's apparently a misunderstanding over the word used to describe children in the original crusade..it may not have meant children but the poor that wandered nomadically through Europe at the time...So no parental permission needed...:)
I think you are confusing that with Peter the Hermit because there is historical record that:
Towards the end of June the children massed at Vendôme. Awed contemporaries spoke of thirty thousand, not one over twelve years of age. There were certainly several thousand of them, collected from all parts of the country, some of them simple peasants, whose parents in many cases had willingly let them go on their great mission. But there were also boys of noble birth who had slipped away from home to join Stephen and his following of "minor prophets" as the chroniclers called them. There were also girls amongst them, a few young priests, and a few older pilgrims, some drawn by piety, others, perhaps, from pity, and others, certainly, to share in the gifts that were showered upon them all. The bands came crowding into the town, each with a leader carrying a copy of the Oriflamme, which Stephen took as the device of the Crusade. The town could not contain them all, and they encamped in the fields outside.
I think you are confusing that with Peter the Hermit because there is historical record that:
Towards the end of June the children massed at Vendôme. Awed contemporaries spoke of thirty thousand, not one over twelve years of age. There were certainly several thousand of them, collected from all parts of the country, some of them simple peasants, whose parents in many cases had willingly let them go on their great mission. But there were also boys of noble birth who had slipped away from home to join Stephen and his following of "minor prophets" as the chroniclers called them. There were also girls amongst them, a few young priests, and a few older pilgrims, some drawn by piety, others, perhaps, from pity, and others, certainly, to share in the gifts that were showered upon them all. The bands came crowding into the town, each with a leader carrying a copy of the Oriflamme, which Stephen took as the device of the Crusade. The town could not contain them all, and they encamped in the fields outside.
I'm not..there is a firm suggestion that the Children's Crusade is a medieval 'legend' according to modern historians.
Sad isn't it how they keep debunking one's favourite historical events.:(
TheDaddy
23-03-2009, 14:58
I'm not..there is a firm suggestion that the Children's Crusade is a medieval 'legend' according to modern historians.
Sad isn't it how they keep debunking one's favourite historical events.:(
Possible suggestion perhaps, to many people documented it at the time for it to be legend, embellished perhaps, made up unlikely imo.
And yes I have always been a fan, the Pied Piper tale was what first caught my interest in it.
Possible suggestion perhaps, to many people documented it at the time for it to be legend, embellished perhaps, made up unlikely imo.
And yes I have always been a fan, the Pied Piper tale was what first caught my interest in it.
Don't forget the 'media' of the time was rather limited.It was all word of mouth and you know how a story can change if that's the only way it gets passed on.It's not like everyone could read.;)
LondonRoad
25-03-2009, 08:36
Is the BBC news magazine scanning CF for article ideas?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7955846.stm
Is the BBC news magazine scanning CF for article ideas?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7955846.stm
Interesting find..and thank you for dragging us back on topic..;)
kingbuxton
28-03-2009, 01:54
I try not to think about it, I don't believe, and haven't for many years. But then, I am not convinced with evolution. I also find it hard to grasp the concept of it all starts with a "Big Bang" OK, so what was floating around before that? Now, nothing can come from nothing, everything needs a start, and that start always has a preceding element........and on and on and on and on.....infinity, holy crap it's 3am!
I will say this, if some "Being" does exist, then I hope I get 2 mins to see him, would love to ask about the sick joke mankind is, I really want to hear the punchline.
They say God moves in mysterious ways! He certainly does. He seems to be Moonwalking all over us at the moment.
Seeing some of the stuff going on (and that has gone on, cheers www) do you really respect a God that allows that to happen? Especially, based on the fact that there can be only one, when he allows it to be done in the name of a false God, whichever that may be, although I don't believe in any of them...............and hence it's just a nice planet contaminated with a failed species!
frogstamper
28-03-2009, 03:09
Oohh poo I've only just found this thread, I trust everybody has had a good time with this old acorn? even Chris and Russ I expect.:)
Oh well I'll just catch the next thread on religion, I'm sure it won't be too long, maybe a nice one to get our teeth into would be....woo-wooo "Creationism".:)
They say God moves in mysterious ways! He certainly does. He seems to be Moonwalking all over us at the moment.
Seeing some of the stuff going on (and that has gone on, cheers www) do you really respect a God that allows that to happen? Especially, based on the fact that there can be only one, when he allows it to be done in the name of a false God, whichever that may be, although I don't believe in any of them...............and hence it's just a nice planet contaminated with a failed species!
He made us, and won't help us. he leaves us to kill and to make each other suffer. it's all happening at the moment and we are all content because we know that after we have gone through the suffering stages and eventually die. we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.
He made us, and won't help us. he leaves us to kill and to make each other suffer. it's all happening at the moment and we are all content because we know that after we have gone through the suffering stages and eventually die. we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.
There are entry requirements, you know.......;)
There are entry requirements, you know.......;)
What. only people that he's left to suffer and die are allowed in? :)
kingbuxton
28-03-2009, 11:13
we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.
It's a nice thought.
It's a nice thought.
It's something to look forward to. like a meaning in life. a sort of a goal at the end.
What. only people that he's left to suffer and die are allowed in? :)
a) how do you know it's a he?
b) we all die, so not really narrowing it down much, are you, G old boy?
b) apparently no derriere-pits, so behavioural modification may be indicated.....;)
Oohh poo I've only just found this thread, I trust everybody has had a good time with this old acorn? even Chris and Russ I expect.:)
Oh well I'll just catch the next thread on religion, I'm sure it won't be too long, maybe a nice one to get our teeth into would be....woo-wooo "Creationism".:)
For once the usual suspects have been a little more respectful with their opinions and thus far this thread has been better than the average CF religion threads.Well done.;)
a) how do you know it's a he?
I can call it it if you want?
b) we all die, so not really narrowing it down much, are you, G old boy?
Some of us die naturally. some of us are tortured, and left to suffer agonising pain before we die. that's the part I'm narrowing down.
b) apparently no derriere-pits, so behavioural modification may be indicated.....;)
:confused: :)
LondonRoad
28-03-2009, 12:09
;)For once the usual suspects have been a little more respectful with their opinions and thus far this thread has been better than the average CF religion threads.Well done.;)
You're tempting faith, I mean fate. ;)
;)
You're tempting faith, I mean fate. ;)
Then I'll come back and make my opinions and wishes clear..again.;)
For those who need an interpretation
http://www.biblegateway.com/
For those who need an interpretation
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Thanks. I've mislaid my Bible :)
LondonRoad
28-03-2009, 21:49
I thought I'd wandered into the national lottery results there. ;)
frogstamper
28-03-2009, 21:52
Aahh!! Brighton 3 Woking 1 :)
LondonRoad
28-03-2009, 21:57
Aahh!! Brighton 3 Woking 1 :)
I believe in God. I don't believe Brighton could score 3 goals...... unless there is a higher force at work. ;)
kingbuxton
28-03-2009, 22:01
For once the usual suspects have been a little more respectful with their opinions
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view. As long as you say "I don't believe" but have respect for someone that does, and I do, it takes some doing to have faith, especially in todays climate, then there is no reason it should end up with a "My dad can beat up your dad" type discussion.
LondonRoad
28-03-2009, 22:10
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view. As long as you say "I don't believe" but have respect for someone that does, and I do, it takes some doing to have faith, especially in todays climate, then there is no reason it should end up with a "My dad can beat up your dad" type discussion.
I agree. You should never try to convert anybody who strongly believes one way or the other. It's not like an argument about who is going to win the league, or who will be elected, or best film at the Oscars. We'll find things like that out eventually whereas we've a while to wait for the day of reckoning..... I hope.
kingbuxton
28-03-2009, 22:23
we've a while to wait for the day of reckoning..... I hope
See, that is the funny thing. I don't believe, but I still hope it is real. Maybe it's me, I dunno, but to be passing the Pearl Gates on a conveyor to Hell will be kinda amusing in a "S**t" (Do it in a Dr Evil voice) sorta way, Ned Flanders made real pointing and laughing at me and Blasphemous Rumours blasting away in the background.
TheDaddy
29-03-2009, 06:44
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view. As long as you say "I don't believe" but have respect for someone that does, and I do, it takes some doing to have faith, especially in todays climate, then there is no reason it should end up with a "My dad can beat up your dad" type discussion.
Hmm in all the religious threads I have seen and participated in during my time here I have never seen anyone try and convert another member, what usually happens is some one posts a seemingly innocent question or article, receives answers which are then questioned by other members and then some dunce wades in with a line like 'it's all fairy tales init' the thread then degenerates and eventually gets closed.
Whilst I agree that people with strong beliefs either way wont be swayed they imo generally aren't the problem here.
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view.
That has NEVER happened on here. Nobody has ever tried to convert a non-believer to Christianity on CF.
kingbuxton
29-03-2009, 15:29
Well that's what always seems to happen on the ones I have seen prev. You're wrong, no you are, no you are.............it wasn't specific to this place.
That has NEVER happened on here. Nobody has ever tried to convert a non-believer to Christianity on CF.
I was propositioned by one once :)
I don't think he is trying to say that it's full on conversion to christianity. it's always been just differences of opinion given as far as I see.
I'm on one of the 'sides' that KB refers to (he's pretty specific about that) and I've never tried to convert anyone.
kingbuxton
29-03-2009, 17:00
I'm on one of the 'sides' that KB refers to (he's pretty specific about that)
Did I? It was supposed to be a generalisation, I have no idea who the "Usual Suspects" are, if that is you, then I appologise, it was an accident on my part, it wasn't aimed at anyone, let alone anyone on here.
---------- Post added at 16:00 ---------- Previous post was at 15:57 ----------
they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist
I also meant it in both directions, just in case that wasn't clear, it's not me bashing believers.
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