View Full Version : Strong Dogmatic View points!
We all have our own view points, opinions, what ever you wish to call them.
Some of us however never ever seem to accept others opinions, and feel always that they are wrong and we are right!
Personally I was once one of those, but with a little bit of age and experience, of course I now know I have been wrong on the odd occassion!;)
Forums seem to be a good place to express your opinion on a wide variety of subjects, with out usually coming under attack.
My question is, does a little bit of falling out on forums, (or should I type, a heated debate with the odd personality clash ) add to a forum or detract from it?
definately adds to it
lets face it "heated debate"is how parliament works that's how laws are past and who know's maybe forums like this one will one day play a part in government decisions after all it's a good way to gauge public opinion
If an mp want's to pass a law he simply posts the idea on a forum and monitors the responses
AbyssUnderground
04-03-2009, 19:01
From my experience on my own forum, it can do both add and detract. Add in the way that it brings people in to see what the commotion is about, and detract in the way that mature people will see the problems and not want to be associated with it, and simply leave either temporally or permanently depending on the person.
zing_deleted
04-03-2009, 19:04
It has in the last 12 months totally spoiled it for me
downquark1
04-03-2009, 19:07
Depends on the nature of the forum. If cable forum was purely a tech support forum or any single interest forum I would say it detracts from it, but you need places to discuss personal ideas and it is enriching to do so.
zing_deleted
04-03-2009, 19:08
Under equal terms it would be fine but there is inequality on this forum
AbyssUnderground
04-03-2009, 19:14
Under equal terms it would be fine but there is inequality on this forum
I have to agree, and its not just the members, its also the moderators as well who degrade forums with their "i'm more powerful than you, and you WILL do what I say" attitude over something petty, and over arguing with a moderator in general whether topic related or at the person as being a moderator themselves...
However, moderators need to do their job and in most cases I don't argue any moderator decision. Its still a put down though.
As long as it doesn't turn into a personal slanging match, a bit of heated discussion is a good thing. We can't all have the same ideals and thoughts, so those who are definately "in the wrong" might be persuaded to "see the light".... or not, as the case might be with some characters.....
Raistlin
04-03-2009, 20:10
I think you're all wrong, so there :D
papa smurf
04-03-2009, 20:25
most on this forum can have a good argument with each other ,then just move on from it as if nothing has happened, and nothing has really its just a debate,the religious threads and threads about immigrants tend to be the most fiery ,but its just opinions no one gets hurt .;)
Under equal terms it would be fine but there is inequality on this forum
Hey! You aren't exactly a shrinking violet either.You stick to your opinions just as much as anyone and can be just as dogmatic zingy...:p:
Personally I'm getting fed up with the same old arguments that just end up back where they started......I'm getting to a point where I'm trying not to get involved..but it's damned hard sometimes.:(
I'll apologise in advance (and in hindsight) if my having strong opinions has upset anyone..
Except those I really want to upset.:batty:
zing_deleted
04-03-2009, 20:33
I do not have the power to forcably silence anyone opposed to me though
I do not have the power to forcably silence anyone opposed to me though
Neither do I..I have to give my fellow mods some very good reasons and I seldom win the argu errr discussions about it...
idi banashapan
04-03-2009, 21:02
not sure if this thread is irony or intentional, but here is a great place to post that. there are certainly a few here who will simply will not accept others' views, even when the reasoning for the view is given in the simplest terms.
I, for one, discovered recently that I can't be on the fence about anything. apparently, I HAVE to believe one thing or another!.... :)
some just like to argue with you. simple as that. they take a disliking to you and try to linch you every time you post something...
...in my personal experience, anyway!!!
zing_deleted
04-03-2009, 21:12
Neither do I..I have to give my fellow mods some very good reasons and I seldom win the argu errr discussions about it...
you know exactly what I mean maggy
not sure if this thread is irony or intentional, but here is a great place to post that. there are certainly a few here who will simply will not accept others' views, even when the reasoning for the view is given in the simplest terms.
I, for one, discovered recently that I can't be on the fence about anything. apparently, I HAVE to believe one thing or another!.... :)
some just like to argue with you. simple as that. they take a disliking to you and try to linch you every time you post something...
...in my personal experience, anyway!!!
Posted only to raise a debate!
I am on another forum, where it seems to be the norm to argue and abuse each others view points, and never to debate them in a civilised manner!
Hence me being a new member on here, and looking for something a bit better, of a more adult way, and not kids verbally trying to get one over one another in the play ground!
This site seems to a bit more on the techno side for me maybe, so any pointers in another direction will be gratefully recieved!
Lucy.
Posted only to raise a debate!
I am on another forum, where it seems to be the norm to argue and abuse each others view points, and never to debate them in a civilised manner!
Hence me being a new member on here, and looking for something a bit better, of a more adult way, and not kids verbally trying to get one over one another in the play ground!
This site seems to a bit more on the techno side for me maybe, so any pointers in another direction will be gratefully recieved!
Lucy.
To be honest I reckon you are going to get this sort of behaviour anywhere you go online..:(
Raistlin
04-03-2009, 21:19
This site seems to a bit more on the techno side for me maybe, so any pointers in another direction will be gratefully recieved!
Lucy.
I think it's the more structured nature of this forum that makes it somewhere where people are not so open to abuse as they are in other forums. I know it appears heavily technical in places, and I think that's partially due to the nature of the issues that many of our primary target audience experience.
The lifestyle areas of the forum are great places to hang out, and quite often are the source of some (very) heated/interesting debates - there's no reason at all why someone shouldn't spend their entire time here posting in/reading only those less technical areas.
There have been accusations in the past that the rules/moderation here are too strict. There are other forums that I've frequented in the past where this discussion would have been shut down the very minute that any criticism (be it direct or implied) of the staff was raised. I've also visited forums where I've stayed no longer than a couple of days, and only posted onces, such was the overtly hostile and abusive nature of many of the Members and discussions there.
I'm not suggesting that CF is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a damn site better and a much nicer place to frequent than the majority of the other forums I'm a Member of.
idi banashapan
04-03-2009, 21:22
Posted only to raise a debate!
I am on another forum, where it seems to be the norm to argue and abuse each others view points, and never to debate them in a civilised manner!
Hence me being a new member on here, and looking for something a bit better, of a more adult way, and not kids verbally trying to get one over one another in the play ground!
This site seems to a bit more on the techno side for me maybe, so any pointers in another direction will be gratefully recieved!
Lucy.
some people just don't like being wrong or having someone think differently to themselves and really can't handle it. what's even funnier is when those people get beaten down with a logically-minded argumentative adversary! some of them HATE that!! lol
mischievious
04-03-2009, 21:37
I suspect the root problem is not the forums per se but the members attitudes. In my experience no matter what you discuss in real life or in a forum cannot always be agreed upon even in the face of overwhelming evidence. The discussion will start out amiable and each side of the debate will use its knowledge and evidence against the other until one side is clearly either stronger or simply more resourceful than the other. One side then being backed into a corner will either concede and as some put "see the light" (though what they do privately.....) OR simply don the "la la la I'm not listening headset" but still continue to post. The circular argument that is often cited is ofter due to this behaviour. In the face of evidence and outside resources, it is amazing how much illogical argument can have weight purely because others in the discussion support the original view.
As a society we hold a lot of stake in how much our words and actions mean to those around us even to strangers on the Internet. To lose face for many in a forum seems almost shameful....
Personally if you can beat me down I am willing to accept it, I believe that is what makes me a stronger and better human being, the ability to learn from my mistakes. That way I can use your own argument against you next time :D
I suspect the root problem is not the forums per se but the members attitudes. In my experience no matter what you discuss in real life or in a forum cannot always be agreed upon even in the face of overwhelming evidence. The discussion will start out amiable and each side of the debate will use its knowledge and evidence against the other until one side is clearly either stronger or simply more resourceful than the other. One side then being backed into a corner will either concede and as some put "see the light" (though what they do privately.....) OR simply don the "la la la I'm not listening headset" but still continue to post. The circular argument that is often cited is ofter due to this behaviour. In the face of evidence and outside resources, it is amazing how much illogical argument can have weight purely because others in the discussion support the original view.
As a society we hold a lot of stake in how much our words and actions mean to those around us even to strangers on the Internet. To lose face for many in a forum seems almost shameful....
Personally if you can beat me down I am willing to accept it, I believe that is what makes me a stronger and better human being, the ability to learn from my mistakes. That way I can use your own argument against you next time :D
Agreed - the older I get, and the more I learn, the more I realise that I have to learn.
idi banashapan
04-03-2009, 21:44
i can see this thread will actually have more irony posts in it than the titanic, or an irony type fence
Raistlin
04-03-2009, 21:45
i can see this thread will actually have more irony in it than the titanic
.....and it'll probably go down just as quickly :D
idi banashapan
04-03-2009, 21:47
lol
On that note -
What do you get if you cross an apple with a nun?
A computer that won't go down on you!
On that note -
What do you get if you cross an apple with a nun?
A computer that won't go down on you!
NO YOU DON'T :mad: :upyours:
:on-topic: There's nothing wrong with strong viewpoints. It's the dogmatic ones that are problematic.
idi banashapan
04-03-2009, 23:03
There's nothing wrong with strong viewpoints. It's the dogmatic ones that are problematic.
what really gets me though, is those who have such a 'strong viewpoint', they begin to believe it is the truth and fact of the matter. everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course - but this does not mean that everyone else should have that same view, not does it mean that those with another view are fools.
another thing that I don't understand is when someone just doesn't read what you say, or if they only read the first one or two sentances without reading the whole post. they then start quoting you and taking it all out of context, or start arguing with you when you have already said in the post you are being quoted from that this isn't necessarily your view.
then there are those (often the same ones), who seem to feel that if you bring a view or belief to the table in order to open up the debate, that think it is YOUR view and will not accept anything other, even when you say it in plain English what you feel and explain it numerous times in many different ways.
there are more things that get me, but there's a starter for 10.
what really gets me though, is those who have such a 'strong viewpoint', they begin to believe it is the truth and fact of the matter. everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course - but this does not mean that everyone else should have that same view, not does it mean that those with another view are fools.
I'd class that as dogmatic, rather than just strong.
then there are those (often the same ones), who seem to feel that if you bring a view or belief to the table in order to open up the debate, that think it is YOUR view and will not accept anything other, even when you say it in plain English what you feel and explain it numerous times in many different ways.
I can't say this has happened to me, but I think I know what you're referring to ;)
what really gets me though, is those who have such a 'strong viewpoint', they begin to believe it is the truth and fact of the matter. everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course - but this does not mean that everyone else should have that same view, not does it mean that those with another view are fools.
another thing that I don't understand is when someone just doesn't read what you say, or if they only read the first one or two sentances without reading the whole post. they then start quoting you and taking it all out of context, or start arguing with you when you have already said in the post you are being quoted from that this isn't necessarily your view.
then there are those (often the same ones), who seem to feel that if you bring a view or belief to the table in order to open up the debate, that think it is YOUR view and will not accept anything other, even when you say it in plain English what you feel and explain it numerous times in many different ways.
there are more things that get me, but there's a starter for 10.
There nothing more guaranteed to polarise opinion than a fence sitter..Both sides will hate you.;)
idi banashapan
04-03-2009, 23:31
There nothing more guaranteed to polarise opinion than a fence sitter..Both sides will hate you.;)
it's just a shame some people are so narrow minded.
but again, once they are presented with a logical argument from which they cannot wriggle free from (because suddenly they see that what they are saying is actually logically flawed), they start getting personal, disappear or just refuse to acknowledge what you are saying outright and continue to rant at you. it's crazy. still, it must mean that every day is an adventure for them, battling their way past logic all day, every day must be very tiring.
it's just a shame some people are so narrow minded.
but again, once they are presented with a logical argument from which they cannot wriggle free from (because suddenly they see that what they are saying is actually logically flawed), they start getting personal, disappear or just refuse to acknowledge what you are saying outright and continue to rant at you. it's crazy. still, it must mean that every day is an adventure for them, battling their way past logic all day, every day must be very tiring.
To be honest I get bored of logic chopping pretty quickly..Having to do it on a daily basis with teenagers is very wearing and it soon loses it's charm..:erm:
The dogmatic ones that are problematic......I liked that, very much!
............... .................... ....................
We all have our right to our own opinions of course, it is the way we put then over to others on forums that sometimes becomes a problem.
I personally like it when something has been reasoned well, and my own opinon has then been changed with sound reasoning and fact, that has been put over in a debate form on a forum,
Sometimes it can be quite refreshing to realise you are wrong!
Not that it happens to me that much of course!;);)
zing_deleted
05-03-2009, 09:46
Being dogmatic does not in itself make you wrong. Being a biggot does not make you wrong. I will fight my corner until someone has given me enough evidence (or I find myself) to prove that my view is incorrect. imo there is nothing wrong in standing by what you think is correct others are bound to disagree but they could be wrong also. Quite often you find opposing sides just as bad as each other but only one side tends to get blamed for bad behaviour. As I said I will stand up for my view until either I prove im correct im proven wrong or im threatened with an infraction to shut me up ;)
Raistlin
05-03-2009, 09:49
I think that quite often it's not people's views that get them into trouble so much as the way that they choose to express them, the fact that they just don't know when to shut up, or that they can't seem to find a way to express them in an adult manner without feeling the need to get sly little digs in at the expense of other Members.
To be honest I get bored of logic chopping pretty quickly..Having to do it on a daily basis with teenagers is very wearing and it soon loses it's charm..:erm:
And yet you volunteered for team duties here ... :disturbd:
it's just a shame some people are so narrow minded.
but again, once they are presented with a logical argument from which they cannot wriggle free from (because suddenly they see that what they are saying is actually logically flawed), they start getting personal, disappear or just refuse to acknowledge what you are saying outright and continue to rant at you. it's crazy. still, it must mean that every day is an adventure for them, battling their way past logic all day, every day must be very tiring.
Logical argument is one of the things I most love about this place and one of the reasons I really miss Graham. I frequently disagreed with his views but sparring with him taught me a lot about constructing a logical argument.
Raistlin
05-03-2009, 10:07
I think that in forums generally (he says, trying to move away from an increasingly rapdily opening chasm and get things back on track before anybody is given an excuse to get all excited about anything - little hint there for everybody ;) ) you are always going to get a few people that just will not walk away from an argument.
I use the word argument rather than discussion here, because by the time you reach the point where a discussion becomes that heated that you need to consider walking away there's really no other word for it.
I'll quite happy state my case, and fight my corner, to a point. You have to realise though that occasionally you're going to be discussing things with someone that (for whatever reason) just will not listen to reason, just will not even conceed any other point of view than their own, and will not allow themselves to be flexible/moveable in any way. At that point the whole point of the discussion ends, because all that happens is that you find yourself repeating the same points over and over and over and over and over.....
What you need to ask yourself at that point is this: is it really worth it?
Some people seem to think that they need to 'win' every single discussion, and that blinds them to the fact that they're either a) banging their head against someone that's not interested in any point of view other than their own, or b) being baited by someone who's only interest is to create tension and disagreement and then watch the trouble escalate.
I just can't be bothered. Once I've said my piece and then realised that I'm wasting my time I'll walk away. There's little point in wasting my time on either of the above categories of people, because frankly my time's a lot more valuable than that.
There are some people (generally speaking, on many forums, and pointing the finger at nobody in particular) that do themselves no favours by the way that they act. I understand that they want to get their point across, and I understand that they don't want to be seen to back down/lose face, and I understand that they're prepared to stand up and argue for what they believe - but they need to understand that sometimes discretion really is the better part of valour, and learn when to just walk away.
zing_deleted
05-03-2009, 10:10
I admit a charector flaw in me is if I believe I am correct and I have someone telling me I am not correct why should I back down when the other person refuses to? There is a saying thats very true indeed and that is " the more crap you take the more crap you get" edited it slightly as to not hit the filter
I admit I am a bigot when I think I am right I will not change my view until someone proves me wrong. When I prove myself wrong or someone else proves me wrong I put my hands up and say I am wrong and my view will change not until
Raistlin
05-03-2009, 10:16
why should I back down when the other person refuses to?
.....because (generally speaking) sometimes it's less important to be right then it is to be better than the next person. If you stop arguing you're not admitting defeat, or that you were wrong, you're just stopping arguing..... simples ;)
zing_deleted
05-03-2009, 10:35
then the other person should stop and want to be better than me ;)
Raistlin
05-03-2009, 10:39
then the other person should stop and want to be better than me ;)
Ah, but perhaps the other people don't care about who's better, perhaps they're only interested in causing trouble/arguments, perhaps they're even more stubborn than you are :D
zing_deleted
05-03-2009, 10:41
You have seen a who I argue with aint ya lol lol
I just want to say thanks for all the responses, the funny and the serious ones.
It seems to me that it takes all sort of folk to make a forum, if we were all the same and thought the same, how boring a place like this would be. In reflection, I think I quite like the odd thread that has a bit of spice in it.
That was my first thread on here, so the number of responses was great. I am now thinking of a topic for my second one..............
zing_deleted
05-03-2009, 10:49
TBH it would not bother me if this place was just a tech support forum as thats what I do mostly anyway. The fact there is lifestyle and current affairs means all the things thats the old adage says gets discussed(never discuss religion and politics) because by the nature there is always apposing sides that will never agree. Throw in with that news that shows how crap life and people can be and you have a lot of emotive issues all under one roof
That was my first thread on here, so the number of responses was great. I am now thinking of a topic for my second one..............
If you want to see some really dogmatic postings, make your next title "What do you really think of Muslims, Immigrants and Religion" :spin:
....but seriously....for the sake of us poor admins...please don't :disturbd:
zing_deleted
05-03-2009, 10:53
I would love an open forum where I could honestly post my views on those subjects. I know places exist but they are racist and I am not going to or want to be involved with those
If you want to see some really dogmatic postings, make your next title "What do you really think of Muslims, Immigrants and Religion" :spi
....but seriously....for the sake of us poor admins...please don't :disturbd:
Thanks for that Russ, will do!:)
Thanks for that Russ, will do!:)
I stress the final 2 words of my post....
If you want to see some really dogmatic postings, make your next title "What do you really think of Muslims, Immigrants and Religion" :spin:
Nah, what she really wants to ask if "What do you really think of Muslims, Immigrants, Religion, the TV Licence and speed limits/fines?"
Oh lordy....I'm going on holiday, I'll be back in a month :Sprint:
LondonRoad
05-03-2009, 12:26
Nah, what she really wants to ask if "What do you really think of Muslims, Immigrants, Religion, the TV Licence and speed limits/fines?"
:D
you forgot STM, paedophiles, Jade G, etc
:)
I love this forum, The poster you're having a heated, erm, debate with in one thread, can be the same individual giving you invaluable advice on the problem you're having with your PC, TV or pet hamster. :)
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