View Full Version : New STM could be coming your way
broadbandking
10-02-2009, 19:23
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/trafficTrial.html
At the moment only preston has been annouced as a STM trial area.
They are looking at releasing everyone who is STM 'd @ 11pm so affectivly you can be STM'd for 7hrs from what I gather.
Weekday and weekend will have different limits.
To me I dont like this so much for not been limited on bandwidth.
So whats your views?
flashpaul
10-02-2009, 19:36
7 hours !
5 hours was bad enough but 7 is excessive
why don't they just have done with it and manage for 24 hours !
---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------
I missed the bit at the weekends where you are managed for 10 hours !
Whats the point of having something you cant use at the weekend for 10 hours !
It sorta means that it's a bit better, Weekday wise you could download as much as you want till 4PM and then get capped if you download more after 4.
However, weekend wise nobody will be happy as its the whole day and it's really not alot before you get stm'd.
Although the throttle period is now longer, it though can be shorter as no matter when you trip STM it will turn off at 23:00
Hello !
Oh how I love living in Preston..:rolleyes:
The weekend STM is a little harsh, 3Gb from morning till 9PM, no linux ISO's on the weekend !
Why is Preston only ever a trial area for the rubbish stuff..? Original STM, New STM limits.. 50Mb...? Not a sniff !
Bri
broadbandking
10-02-2009, 20:05
Thats the only postive thing but again these are trials so they can change at anytime
brundles
10-02-2009, 20:11
Oh goody - another attempt to make me pay more for the same amount I use my broadband for at the moment.
This changing of hours isn't about bandwidth usage (wasn't DOCSIS 3 supposed to help that?) but about encouraging people to upgrade based on what they download rather than how fast they can.
djmagnifique
10-02-2009, 20:22
Weekend download thresholds are actually 2 1/2 to 3 times more than during the week (average 600mb/hour during week, 750mb/hour at weekends on 20Mb connection)
All i'll do if I want to download something big during the stm times is start the download, wait a few minutes for it to settle down then see what the time remaining on it is, stop the download then start it later on so if i do get stm'd it won't be for very long.
AbyssUnderground
10-02-2009, 20:26
Why the hell will Ofcom not make it against the rules to advertise Unlimited when there are throttling such as Virgin Media's rules put in place? This is quite frankly getting [insert 7 extreme profanities here] stupid!!! :mad::mad::mad:
I pay for 10Mbps, I expect to get it when I need it, not when Virgin want to give me it. If virgin can't supply the speeds you pay for 24/7, they shouldn't bloody offer them!!! :mad::mad::mad:
I'd be much happier with a monthly cap than STM at this moment in time thats for damn sure! I am sick of re-arranging my downloading habits so Virgin can cut back their costs! I'm sorry but if this goes ahead Virgin can say a very firm goodbye to a 6+ year loyal customer!!! :mad::mad::mad:
Why the hell will Ofcom not make it against the rules to advertise Unlimited when there are throttling such as Virgin Media's rules put in place? This is quite frankly getting [insert 7 extreme profanities here] stupid!!! :mad::mad::mad:
I pay for 10Mbps, I expect to get it when I need it, not when Virgin want to give me it. If virgin can't supply the speeds you pay for 24/7, they shouldn't bloody offer them!!! :mad::mad::mad:
I'd be much happier with a monthly cap than STM at this moment in time thats for damn sure! I am sick of re-arranging my downloading habits so Virgin can cut back their costs! I'm sorry but if this goes ahead Virgin can say a very firm goodbye to a 6+ year loyal customer!!! :mad::mad::mad:
It will go ahead...only thing that may change is the throttling times (anything from 10-12 hours is on the cards atm for weekends)
Oh and you need a better server, your speedtest is not very good...500KB/s from a 100Mbit connection...
AbyssUnderground
10-02-2009, 20:30
It will go ahead...only thing that may change is the throttling times (anything from 10-12 hours is on the cards atm for weekends)
Oh and you need a better server, your speedtest is not very good...500KB/s from a 100Mbit connection...
Or perhaps its a local congestion issue, since I can pull my full 10Mbps at the moment. There isn't a capacity issue, see the provided graph.
Or perhaps its a local congestion issue, since I can pull my full 10Mbps at the moment. There isn't a capacity issue, see the provided graph.
Tested on FTTH connection as well as dedi, both give out poor speeds.
As does ADSL2.
Doubt all have congestion issues :p:
AbyssUnderground
10-02-2009, 20:35
Tested on FTTH connection as well as dedi, both give out poor speeds.
As does ADSL2.
Doubt all have congestion issues :p:
I'll check for any datacenter issues but lets not discuss this here. This thread is to be angry with virgin not my server ;)
EDIT: Seems like 2x10Gbps of their AMSIX pipes are down, that could explain it. They're running on half capacity now.
*sloman*
10-02-2009, 20:36
Well i'm a VIP Virgin customer and pay something like £80 pm month. If this goes live bye bye Virgin!
I would rather have 7mb ADSL from Be* than 20mb stm during all the times i most use my PC.
Why should i have to leave the PC/Laptop on all night!
Its like buying a Bugatti Veyron and Bugatti saying we are going to limit it to 60mph!!!!!
The words i want to use i cant on here, but VM you are a bunch of (You insert the words)
Do this and you will lose most of your premium customers! Us fools who pay for 10-20MB.
This has put me off 50MB now as i'm sure there will now be a limit on this 'Mother of Broadband'. Cough: My ass!
AbyssUnderground
10-02-2009, 20:39
:clap: :clap:
I am too far from the exchange to get a decent Be* speed but they'd still be my first choice than this crappy throttled stuff.
Oh well, I never go to bed before 1am so I'll just kick off downloads before I hit the sack.
Gotta admit I am getting really peeved at paying for a 20mb line and then they tell me I can't use it. Wonder what would happen if they started saying to people they can pay for Sky Sports but only watch 70% of a match?
*sloman*
10-02-2009, 20:56
:clap: :clap:
I am too far from the exchange to get a decent Be* speed but they'd still be my first choice than this crappy throttled stuff.
Same here they offer 24mb but as i'm about 2km away i can only get 7-8mb.
With there double bonding trials i maybe able to get 12-13mb and a decent upload too!!!!
VM you are fools bring out QoS block all P2P programs at these times (Not Usenet though!).
You will also get a high five from the dreaded BPI too!
sniper007
10-02-2009, 21:24
Same here they offer 24mb but as i'm about 2km away i can only get 7-8mb.
With there double bonding trials i maybe able to get 12-13mb and a decent upload too!!!!
VM you are fools bring out QoS block all P2P programs at these times (Not Usenet though!).
You will also get a high five from the dreaded BPI too!
Interesting, I live 2.1km from my exchange and Ive done a couple of checks with sam knows and bt site, and both say max I can get is 4.5mbps. Did you get similar predictions and then were actually able to get more? Or did you get predicted 7mbps from the start?
broadbandking
10-02-2009, 21:25
I am stuck with VM so too anyone who has a chance I say go for it
Interesting, I live 2.1km from my exchange and Ive done a couple of checks with sam knows and bt site, and both say max I can get is 4.5mbps. Did you get similar predictions and then were actually able to get more? Or did you get predicted 7mbps from the start?
Is that an ADSL or ADSL2 exchange?
*sloman*
10-02-2009, 21:33
Mine is ADSL2+. ADSL only about 3.5-4.5mb
No i have been with Be* before
But back to the point i hope VM scrap this trial and go for Qos
sniper007
10-02-2009, 21:34
Is that an ADSL or ADSL2 exchange?
It's ADSL2 enabled.
*sloman*
10-02-2009, 21:43
It's ADSL2 enabled.
I dont think BT's site will show ADSL2+ speeds until 21CN is complete.
Go to Be* site https://www.bethere.co.uk/
this is what my phone number says
We've estimated that your maximum download speed is 7 meg .This is based on information BT gave us about your BT line. Actual download speeds depend on different things, like the distance between your telephone exchange and your home, or the quality of your BT line. We'll work with what's there and always give you the fastest speed we can, depending on your chosen package. Even then, your broadband speed might vary from time to time.
But i could get 10mb with a few tweaks but line was not very stable!
My cute ikkle little exchange doesn't get it's grown up 21CN until approx Q2 2011 :(:(:(
*sloman*
10-02-2009, 21:56
My cute ikkle little exchange doesn't get it's grown up 21CN until approx Q2 2011 :(:(:(
Well Derby was set for November 2008 but then some pikeys stole some of BT's 21CN equipment and the date was pushed back a few weeks later to March 2009.
2011 is not that bad i know some people on 1mb and have no date set and no VM access.
AppleSauce
10-02-2009, 22:02
Don't know what to make of this, I am happy the Daytime STM is gone but at the same time the Saturday-Sunday STM worries me.
IMO 1250mb for 2MB users between 11:00 and 21:00 on a weekend is obscene!
Stabhappy
10-02-2009, 22:04
I will gladly take this new STM over the one we currently have. In the end, it means that when we get STM'd at 20:30 we won't have to wait till 1:30 am so can ultimately push much more bandwidth. That and the fact there's no daytime management on weekdays.
The STM should be much more versatile though - only dipping users into STM if they have downloaded a set amount (much like now) and their is a problem with contention on the UBR (utilization at perhaps, 80-90%). This makes much more sense and ultimately means that virgin use their setups more efficiently.
Our Traffic Management policy makes sure our service is fair for everybody, by occasionally moderating speeds for the top 5% of customers who are downloading and/or uploading an unusually large amount of dataCan someone explain the above quote to me as I'm a little confused, does it mean for example -
there are 1 million users in total, 5% download upto 50GB, 60% download upto 30GB, remaining 35% of users download upto 10GB.
Do the top 5% get stm'd only or once they are managed they are no longer the top 5% so the next 5% get stm'd and so on, which in effect stm'd everyone over the threshold
*sloman*
10-02-2009, 22:13
Can someone explain the above quote to me as I'm a little confused, does it mean for example -
there are 1 million users in total, 5% download upto 50GB, 60% download upto 30GB, remaining 35% of users download upto 10GB.
Do the top 5% get stm'd only or once they are managed they are no longer the top 5% so the next 5% get stm'd and so on, which in effect stm'd everyone over the threshold
Bingo!
Only Top 5% my ass, i think you have it bang on! more than 5% of 20mb customers download more than 3Gb.
We are paying for 20mb for 30-40mins between 4pm-9pm the caps kicks in and we are on 5mb for 5hrs
Turkey Machine
10-02-2009, 23:01
Having read this thread and checked out the new STM limits, it appears those on 10Mbit get royally screwed at peak times. The claim that STM only affects the top 5% of users is utter bulls**t IMO and should be rescinded immediately before I put a complaint in to Ofcom, as it plainly doesn't from what I keep reading on the newsgroups and Cable Forum. So as a shared connection (10Mbit) in my flat between 5 machines, we'll probably hit the STM limits most days; it certainly feels that way during peak times.
The upload STM limit on 10Mbit is particularly bad; just on basic calculations and maxing the upload, you'll hit STM in just over 3 hours (700MB).
20Mbit customers get more than double the STM limit on download and upload. Seems they want everyone off 10Mbit and on 20Mbit and 50Mbit.
Frankly, it's a good job I kept my 2Mbit modem and it still works.
more like 20-25 mins if you can flat line (task manager) the download on 20mb
3gb sucks really if it was 5gb at least you could download an dvd size file and not get caped
with the Throttling its so much as you can still download more then 100gb in one day (think it was like 150GB or 200gb not worked it out for some time due to the morning limits now in place) if you do that on an bt line they likely cut you off as most are 40gb per month limits, on the so called unlimited ones is most likely around 100gb before they mite email you or letter
caps did not really affect me once they moved it to 9pm cut off as thats the time i norm started my downloads or started using me internet (on 50mb now so caps are not an problem yet apart from some random i am hoping "errors" when my broadband drops to 2.5mb/s have to reset my MAC adress to fix it)
ignoring the currant STM now the new STM could pose to be problem more so for the week end but haveing the cut off at 23:00 is good so at least now you know your going to get full speed at 11pm not 2am if you hit the throttler before just before 9pm
nice to see that VM are still screwing there customers like in the old days of NTL
brundles
10-02-2009, 23:37
nice to see that VM are still screwing there customers like in the old days of NTL
Erm - they are NTL - just wearing VM badge...
Erm - they are NTL - just wearing VM badge...
If thats the case they are East Coast Cable wearing a VM badge. The last two being shysters.
How can they promote 50M when they drop you to 2.5M when only 1/2 a movie has been down loaded - 2.5M is not even broadband
:mad:
brundles
11-02-2009, 00:14
I believe the Ofcom definition of broadband (although I'd have to dig to be sure) is that only 512kbps is necessary to be classed as broadband.
Doesn't change that VM are (IMO) throttling to "encourage" people to upgrade for downloaded capacity rather than immediately bandwidth. TBH I think it's the only way the BB industry can go but I just wish that someone would be more open about it.
How can they promote 50M when they drop you to 2.5M when only 1/2 a movie has been down loaded - 2.5M is not even broadband
:mad:
i agree 2.5 is not broadband my self keep telling my customers for £4 thay can get 10mb, 2mb sucks when your at customers houses fixing pcs
its most likely an error really as you cant just change your MAC address to get around the STM on 20mb bb or lower service as the limiter still apply (i think it does as i have never tryed to change my mac address to get an new ip to get around the download limiter on 20MB or lower service as it should be working off your host name that VM gives you as that is static)
Welshchris
11-02-2009, 00:31
of BE were here id switch
of BE were here id switch
i had to read that 3-4 times as i could not read (edit it and put if not of, i am bit tried to work it out at first :) )
max BE could offer is 48mb if thay do that package that offers 2xbond ADSL2 lines working at 24mb each (like that will happen), thing is you be paying alot more then what VM charges for phone and 50MB bb
i had to read that 3-4 times as i could not read (edit it and put if not of)
max BE could offer is 48mb if thay do that package that offers 2xbond ADSL2 lines working at 24mb each (like that will happen), thing is you be paying alot more then what VM charges for phone and 50MB bb
Yea but at least you know you wont be capped to hell and back.
You pay for what you get, unless your with virginmedia of course.
Stabhappy
11-02-2009, 01:08
2.5mb? They're either trying out some ludicrous application throttling or you're doing it wrong. Do you get 2.5mb flat with 1 connection? what is each thread limited to (if any?)
Also, Fatec, I understand that where you live you're getting a silly good deal on a FTTH connection, but here in good old Britain we've got two choices. Cable, or phone lines. Phone lines, no matter how much they can prolongue it, will eventually not suffice for high speed connections. Granted we're getting shafted on cable, but it's better than a kick in the b***s.
thats 20 connections to an news server SSL i was at the pc when i watched it drop dead on 9pm from just under 6MB/s to 230KB/s (other room was streaming) that was in task manager as well as newsbin and server app that newsbin connects to showed 2 I/O server socket errors and hung an 3rd connection (2-3 of the connections then would randomly hang and make parts of the download appear as missing until i retry them) re setting the modem does not fix it only changeing the mac address does
i go home now before i cant drive home (this laptop is giveing me tunnel vision :) )
i have an other topic for this just not sure if any one els has had these problems with speeds dropping i been with cable for +5 years aprt from the billing system in the past with C&W or NTL i had no problems with NTL (ok 1 dead modem and one reconnecting one both was replaced with self install option) or Virgin
graf_von_anonym
11-02-2009, 02:07
From my lofty vantage point in Castell Anonym I can say that (in my admittedly limited experience) I have not yet seen more than about 3% of subscribers on any given CMTS traffic managed on any given day. I would say that my lofty vantage point is entirely unscientific, however, and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
The whole 'limit' thing is a marketing nonsense. When Virgin describe themselves as 'unlimited' what they mean is that there isn't an entirely arbitrary* download limit, but a bandwidth restriction. $BANDWIDTH x $TIME will always give you a maximum theoretical downloadable amount, Virgin just modify those values from time to time.
The business of running to OFCOM is, to my mind, just continued escalation from "I am going to cancel unless..." and "I want to talk to a manager". It's a product of frustration, because processes and procedures have not perhaps been clearly explained or understood. In the grand scheme of things I'd be overjoyed if I the thing that concerned me most was that sometimes my broadband were slower than at other times.
*I mean, yes, it is arbitrary in that it's a fixed amount less than the theoretical maximum, but it's probably been worked out with all manner of cunning. Ultimately I blame the conflation of bandwidth and speed.
So basically the only thing they have changed is how long STM lasts when it kicks in, changing it from 5 hours to 7 hours yes?
So basically the only thing they have changed is how long STM lasts when it kicks in, changing it from 5 hours to 7 hours yes?
And also the fact that STM stops dead at 11pm (instead of continuing for the rest of the time until 1am latest)
This is sort of better for me, as in our house there's 3 laptops, a PC and a 360. So he weekday timing is better, I'm not liking the weekend one though... I can't even change from VM either, I live too far away from the exchange to get a decent speed. According to SamKnows, I'd get about 2Mb on a BT line...
AbyssUnderground
11-02-2009, 12:58
The business of running to OFCOM is, to my mind, just continued escalation from "I am going to cancel unless..." and "I want to talk to a manager". It's a product of frustration, because processes and procedures have not perhaps been clearly explained or understood. In the grand scheme of things I'd be overjoyed if I the thing that concerned me most was that sometimes my broadband were slower than at other times.
But Ofcom have the power to stop this, so why don't they? It would stop the amount of pathetic calls they keep getting from every man and his dog about being throttled.
In my eyes, no company should be allowed to call their service "unlimited" if they artificially change or throttle the speed to that lower than you are paying for, for ANY amount of time.
Ofcom can do it, so why don't they? I don't understand. If I was someone at Ofcom who could make this decision I would have done it a long time ago.
But Ofcom have the power to stop this, so why don't they? It would stop the amount of pathetic calls they keep getting from every man and his dog about being throttled.
In my eyes, no company should be allowed to call their service "unlimited" if they artificially change or throttle the speed to that lower than you are paying for, for ANY amount of time.
Ofcom can do it, so why don't they? I don't understand. If I was someone at Ofcom who could make this decision I would have done it a long time ago.
I agree completely with these sentiments. I tried taking it up with the Advertising Standards Agency. Didn't do me any good though. :(
Ed.
Does STM apply for the 50Meg phatpipe?
AbyssUnderground
11-02-2009, 13:50
Does STM apply for the 50Meg phatpipe?
Not at the moment, but it is set to apparently. Yet another point defeating change...
Not at the moment, but it is set to apparently. Yet another point defeating change...
Shame, if there was no STM I would upgrade in a second. We don't get much choice of suppliers where I live in Cambridge, all the phone exchanges are carbon dated and set to upgraded until 2012....
So that only leaves the greenbox brigade ....:td:
From my lofty vantage point in Castell Anonym I can say that (in my admittedly limited experience) I have not yet seen more than about 3% of subscribers on any given CMTS traffic managed on any given day. I would say that my lofty vantage point is entirely unscientific, however, and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Surely this is because people are aware of STM and modifying their downloads accordingly?
The only true way to know what %age would be affected, would be to tell everyone STM was no longer in force and then monitor how many would have been stm'd.
graf_von_anonym
11-02-2009, 15:38
In my eyes, no company should be allowed to call their service "unlimited" if they artificially change or throttle the speed to that lower than you are paying for, for ANY amount of time.
That's part of the problem - what you're paying for is an 'up to' connection, with Terms & Conditions attached. No ISP* has enough capacity to give every user their theoretical maximum simultaneously: it's a product of contention, subscription numbers, the burst model of download, and so on and so forth. There's no minimum either. At the moment there's no SLA on Virgin's broadband offering, other than "you will have a connection". If you want guarantees this is the wrong industry. Too many variables.
Ofcom can do it, so why don't they?
Well, OFCOM have it within their theoretical power, but not within their actual power. Enforcing minimum service levels would cripple most broadband providers (see note from above), and BT and Virgin would be ruined. I mean, average broadband speed in the UK is, what, 3.6Mb (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/features/brspeeds), multiply that by the 15 million odd subscribers and you're looking of backbone requirements of, er, 54Tb. Which is faster than the world record (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/03-28-2007/0004554820&EDATE=) and about 1500 times faster than the current biggest pipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OC-768#OC-768_.2F_STM-256x) in deployment.
Given the choice between maintaining the status quo or some combination of; drastically reducing headline speeds across the board, requiring ISPs to increase their capacity by several orders of magnitude, admitting that all internet speed advertising is effectively meaningless; they'll go with the former.
Though the ASA did slap Virgin for the most recent campaign, so it's not all doom and gloom.
---------- Post added at 15:38 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------
Surely this is because people are aware of STM and modifying their downloads accordingly?
Yes, and, indeed, no.
The research also revealed that, while 91% of consumers said that speed was an important consideration when signing up with their current broadband provider, 28% of them were unaware of the headline speed package they purchased.
Caveat lector and all, but lots of people remain unaware of STM despite the fact it's been on the VM network for well over a year. You've also got to remember that (according to the bumpf) traffic management for that small number improves speeds for the majority.
The only true way to know what %age would be affected, would be to tell everyone STM was no longer in force and then monitor how many would have been stm'd.
That's unlikely to happen, as that action in and of itself would probably constitute a violation of terms and conditions. It's certainly possible to examine traffic usage according to time of day, so you could see if heavier downloaders were avoiding peak times, but that action is to everyone's benefit; it's like keeping lorries off the road during rush hour.
* There's probably an exception somewhere. I'm generalising wildly here.
AbyssUnderground
11-02-2009, 16:52
I'm not talking about enforcing minimum levels, I'm talking about banning the advertisement of "unlimited" when its being artificially limited to a much slower speed than the one you're advertised to get "upto". That in itself is false advertising because they say "upto 10Mbps" for example, but when you get STM'ed its no longer possible to get "upto 10Mbps" because they're deliberately artificially limiting it to prevent it otherwise!
I will not rest this case until Ofcom or Virgin do something about it, or BT do something about the crappy wiring in my area and allow me to switch to Be* or O2. Even if Virgin could offer 10Mbps to every person, how many of those will actually use it 24/7 week after week? I can bet virtually none.
No ISP or even any datacenter has the ability to provide 1:1 to every single customer. Its all about capacity and controlled overselling. Virgin oversell their bandwidth to stupid levels, where as other ISP's such as O2 and Be* stop when it starts to affect their customers "peak demand".
For example if you have a 100Mbps line, and you sell it to 100 people as a 10Mbps line, but 90 of those people use it just for the odd e-mail and ebay, and the other 10 use it fairly harshly, thats controlled overselling. Its rare to see the bandwidth drop for those higher use users if they all use it at once (which in itself is probably a rarity). Thats how O2 and Be* operate.
However if you have a 100Mbps line, and you sell it to 100 people as a 10Mbps line, but just 60 of those people use it for e-mail and ebay, you're selling 10Mbps to 40 people on a 100Mbps line, who are going to use it quite heavily and rarely get anywhere near the 10Mbps they're paying for. Thats how virgin appear to work, and it just doesn't work, hence the need for STM to drop that baseline 10Mbps to 2.5Mbps so everyone can essentially max out their broadband to its "new maximum speed" without affecting anyone.
I hope the maths was right there... I'm not very well so it might not be...
Wigan
Blackpool
Also now under the new STM trial.
Impz2002
11-02-2009, 17:34
That's part of the problem - what you're paying for is an 'up to' connection, with Terms & Conditions attached. No ISP* has enough capacity to give every user their theoretical maximum simultaneously: it's a product of contention, subscription numbers, the burst model of download, and so on and so forth. There's no minimum either. At the moment there's no SLA on Virgin's broadband offering, other than "you will have a connection". If you want guarantees this is the wrong industry. Too many variables.
Bravo ! someone who talks perfect sense !
broadbandking
11-02-2009, 17:52
The only way they get away with the unlimited term is because there is no set limit that Virgin give that you can download i.e 20Gb and then you cant use your net anymore or charged any extra i.e per gb
---------- Post added at 17:52 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------
Wigan
Blackpool
Also now under the new STM trial.
Normal areas for trials then
It would not be as bad if VM reduced your BB cost during times you are throttled.
IE split the 20mb charge into cost per day at full speed, if you happen to be throttled have a lower rate for those minutes used.
Your total is mailed to you with your BB bill breakdown, when you hit 1 free day VM give you a refund off your bill.
Will never happen I know but I would feel a LOT better if it did. I hate paying for something just so a speed benchmark says i have it...and if I use it to much i lose it.
mmmmm...Why oh why can't VM (if they MUST have STM) apply it in a fairway, ie based on say a monthly download limit. Lots of ordinary users, who certainly are not in the top 5% of downloaders, occasionally download an ISO and get STM'd, but come nowhere near the STM limit when aggregated over a week/month/quarter.
They really like taking sledge hammers to crack a nut, no finesse, just crude (possibly easiest to implement) methods of implementation which annoys so many PAYING CUSTOMERS.
KingDaveRa
11-02-2009, 18:58
Those limits are far too low IMHO. It's a shame Virgin are selling what is a pretty good service, but making it brain dead in the process. I can only assume VM's network is a LOT more expensive to run than say Be's, and they save on bandwidth costs to balance it out.
Of course, I bet they'd rather do this, than raise prices.
I remember the days of telewest, when they threatened you with letters or phone calls if you were downloading constantly but there were no STM's as far as I am aware. Maybe the there wern't as many customers with telewest then as there is with Virgin Media now but it shows that virgin have taken on new customers without network upgrades. Finally they decide to deploy docsis3 but then why then roll out a new STM policy for 10 and 20mbit when 20mbit was meant to be going on docsis3 leaving space for docsis2 and up to 10mbit customers? seems to me like their calculations even with docsis 3 can't cope with the current customer base. Or maybe their backbones can't cope? who knows?
*sloman*
11-02-2009, 19:15
AbyssUnderground I'm with you on the unlimited status!!
How can it be unlimited when our speeds are limited for 5hr/7hr/10hrs this prevents us downloading the maximum data possible if we were not limited.
Anyone know how to put in a complaint to Ofcom, I know how on BBC watchdog!
I have posted this issue on VM's Newsgroup virginmedia.discussion.broadband under the title of 'New STM could be coming your way'
CREDIT to: broadbandking
Most people are agreeing with us, and saying the same thing. Have a look
AbyssUnderground
11-02-2009, 19:23
AbyssUnderground I'm with you on the unlimited status!!
Thank you! You're one of few people who seem to understand where I am going with my argument.
In my eyes, if Virgin can't supply the speed they advertise up to on a fairly regular basis, they shouldn't offering it.
To the person who said moving to docsis3 should have solved it, it has solved the local problems, but Virgin just don't have the backbone to cope with the demand, and again this is where STM comes into play to balance things out. I heard somewhere that they had a 40Gbps backbone? Not sure if thats the right figure but when you split that between a few million broadband customers, its not a lot in the end. 0.04Mbps if you split it between 1million customers all attempting to max out at once. Obviously that would never happen but it shows how little at 40Gbps goes. I refer you to my recent post on sensible overselling...
If anyone should want to send this into watchdog or Ofcom on a serious and professional basis I'll be with you all the way and you will have my full support.
I actually spoke to my Dad about changing our cable broadband to ADSL because I'd rather have a decent 7Mbps from Be* than a crappy 2.5Mbps-10Mbps from Virgin. We already have a BT phone line, so in the end it would cost less too.
Anyone know how to put in a complaint to Ofcom, I know how on BBC watchdog!
Annoyingly you can't, they no longer accept consumer complaints in regard to broadband (at least, not online).
You can fill in a form on their website but you won't recieve a personal response it's merely to measure "trends" apparently.
They seem to have abdicated their regulatory powers to the third party dispute system outlined in their "Broadband Code of Practice", rather convenient eh.
broadbandking
11-02-2009, 19:36
The way Virgin get away with this as they have the cable monopoly, as the way cable is designed is for very high speeds at the moment as the ADSL connections are lot more limited.
So Virgi see it as you are gonna get a low speed from a ADSL provider so if you want a higher speed you have to use Virgin and they can throttle it and people will continue to use them because 1. they dont know about STM 2. they rarely use the internet to hit the limits 3. the ADSL speed is sooooo crap they might aswell stick with VM.
Virgin Know all the above point which allows them to do this and get away with it.
There is no way in hell this is to help customers it is just to save Virgin Media money, I could deal with STM if they had set limits that was enough for todays demand i/e between 4-9pm for 20Mb users should have a limit of 8Gb, which isnt alot these days and the stm should only be between 4-9pm, I must admit I would rather no STM but if I had to the above example I could live with.
The main fact is Virgin wil keep doing this as long as the other companies pose no threat, which at the moment they don't.
unnamed1975
11-02-2009, 19:37
why doesnt every one lower there speed to 2mb for a few months and see what happens it might do nothing or again it mite with every one not needing higher speeds only to get capped
broadbandking
11-02-2009, 19:37
Thank you! You're one of few people who seem to understand where I am going with my argument.
In my eyes, if Virgin can't supply the speed they advertise up to on a fairly regular basis, they shouldn't offering it.
To the person who said moving to docsis3 should have solved it, it has solved the local problems, but Virgin just don't have the backbone to cope with the demand, and again this is where STM comes into play to balance things out. I heard somewhere that they had a 40Gbps backbone? Not sure if thats the right figure but when you split that between a few million broadband customers, its not a lot in the end. 0.04Mbps if you split it between 1million customers all attempting to max out at once. Obviously that would never happen but it shows how little at 40Gbps goes. I refer you to my recent post on sensible overselling...
If anyone should want to send this into watchdog or Ofcom on a serious and professional basis I'll be with you all the way and you will have my full support.
I actually spoke to my Dad about changing our cable broadband to ADSL because I'd rather have a decent 7Mbps from Be* than a crappy 2.5Mbps-10Mbps from Virgin. We already have a BT phone line, so in the end it would cost less too.
You are correct they have a 40Gbps backbone
*sloman*
11-02-2009, 19:38
Well i have just submitted my complaint to Watchdog. As AbyssUnderground said if any one wants to make a professional complaint to Ofcom, please put my name down too.
broadbandking: I agree 8Gb limit is more healthy
PS if watchdog does contact me, would there be any problems directing them to this site to read other comments?
Comparing them side by side:
1. Penalty period increased from 5 hours (no termination) to 7 hours with termination at 23:00
- Effect: better if STM'd after 18:00 (in the 16:00-21:00 weekday period), worse if STM'd before
2. Daytime (10:00-15:00) period dropped (unless they just forgot to put that in) - BUT
2a. Weekend period extended to 11:00-21:00 with quota a little less than the previous 2 periods combined
Effect: Weekday before 16:00 - fill yer boots!
Weekend: If you made much use of the 10:00-15:00 slot or the free 15:00-16:00 slot, negative, but if you were mostly an afternoon - early evening user, positive.
3. Upstream - Weekday penalty time as above.
Weekend, time period increased to 10:00-20:00 so both time period and quota are doubled.
Weekends, a bonus if you didn't use the free time before 15:00, a negative if you did.
Upstream restrictions will mostly be an issue for uploading, P2P (and P2P assisted things like some video/radio players), and for video/Voip traffic.
nomadking
11-02-2009, 22:10
Is the demand such a big problem that they have to take such a blanket approach? If STM only applied in circumstances when & where it was actually required, I think people would have less of a problem with it.
I'm on 'M' service(2Mb) at the moment, if I upgrade to 'L'(it looks like it would only cost me an extra £2/month) and end up on 10Mb, even when affected by STM I can still download at min speed of 2.5Mb which is a slightly bigger impact than a 2Mb non STM affected service. So if 2Mb is a problem, why isn't a minimum of 2.5Mb also a problem, never mind if I upgraded to 'XL' with a minimum speed of 5Mb.
RubberyDuck
11-02-2009, 22:13
why doesnt every one lower there speed to 2mb for a few months and see what happens it might do nothing or again it mite with every one not needing higher speeds only to get capped
The only way to get through to VM is with money. The only way to truly achieve this would be to cancel all the services you have with VM.
The problem with us in Britain is we don't stick together. We all like to talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Until the other 99.9% of the population is willing to do anything about it, it ain't going to change.
Seriously people, how quick do you think things would change, if everyone phoned VM tomorrow and cancelled the services they have, and I mean cancel not taking any offer that retensions throw at you.
Though this would clearly work, it is never going to happen, we are all like sheep. Besides who could do without their Broadband, TV Package or Phone line, not many I'm sure, me included.
nutellajunkie
11-02-2009, 22:25
true unlimited internet.. dial-up!
Ignitionnet
11-02-2009, 22:29
true unlimited internet.. dial-up!
Or http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/broadband/pricesandoptions/max
Or http://www.bethere.co.uk or http://broadband.o2.co.uk/home/index.jsp
The 20Mbit connection is an unlimited up to 5Mbit/192kbit service which bursts to up to 20Mbit / 768kbit.
Stabhappy
11-02-2009, 22:31
Better to be able to pull 20mb/s most of the time and 5mb/s a little of the time(not often) than 2.5-5mb 100% of the time!
The 20Mbit connection is an unlimited up to 5Mbit/192kbit service which bursts to up to 20Mbit / 768kbit.
Lol, This actually explains it more. Maybe ofcom can use this against virgin media for false advertisments? Advertising bursting as the actual connection speed?
Turkey Machine
11-02-2009, 22:59
I have had an interesting back and forth with technical support in the newsgroups that ended up in virginmedia.feedback after originally being in virginmedia.support.broadband.cable. I have the connection shared in my flat because we all need it for our course and access to course materials. I chose 10Mbit because 2Mbit was a bit slow for 5 people, and ordinarily, it shouldn't feel that slow.
Imagine my surprise when I asked how many times we've been STM'd in the past month and a half. 14 times last month (January 2009) and so far this month, 5 times! That works out around 1 in 2 days STM'd. I now know why the connection slows to a crawl most evenings.
The kicker is, when I compared the STM limits across the 3 tiers (2Mbit, 10Mbit and 20Mbit), 10Mbit was worst off. During peak times 10Mbit gets a lower-than-half limit than 20Mbit, and barely twice as much as 2Mbit.
I'd ask what the hell Virgin think they're playing at, if I thought it'd get a response. Sadly, I doubt it will. :(
Ignitionnet
11-02-2009, 23:08
Ah that was you was it? Evil leechers degrading performance for everyone else in your area, no consideration, etc, etc, etc.
I think this is the wrong ISP for 5 people to share to be honest. If the 5 of you do anything more than fart in the general direction of your modem on 10Mbit you'll get STM'd.
I note they said that there's no congestion issue in your area, it does beg the question of why you're being throttled at all if there's no bandwidth issue, doesn't it?
Turkey Machine
11-02-2009, 23:47
Ah that was you was it? Evil leechers degrading performance for everyone else in your area, no consideration, etc, etc, etc.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were being a little sarcy, yesno? :angel: I think you were following the wrong thread; no other bugger complained AFAIK.
I think this is the wrong ISP for 5 people to share to be honest. If the 5 of you do anything more than fart in the general direction of your modem on 10Mbit you'll get STM'd.
That makes me feel loads better: last bloody time I break wind when I'm surfing the net! :p:
I note they said that there's no congestion issue in your area, it does beg the question of why you're being throttled at all if there's no bandwidth issue, doesn't it?
Consider that the entire bloody street has students, sits right on a tram line, and to my knowledge, the halls Virgin / ntl / whatever-cable-company-preceded-them-in-my-area so kindly wired up are done individually by flat (some lucky gits have a separate point in the rooms), it's a miracle there aren't more issues.
It basically comes down to the download limits that are artificially set lower than is realistic. If it was doubled, I'd be most happy (same for the upload).
watzizname
11-02-2009, 23:52
I remember the days of telewest, when they threatened you with letters or phone calls if you were downloading constantly but there were no STM's as far as I am aware. Maybe the there wern't as many customers with telewest then as there is with Virgin Media now but it shows that virgin have taken on new customers without network upgrades. Finally they decide to deploy docsis3 but then why then roll out a new STM policy for 10 and 20mbit when 20mbit was meant to be going on docsis3 leaving space for docsis2 and up to 10mbit customers? seems to me like their calculations even with docsis 3 can't cope with the current customer base. Or maybe their backbones can't cope? who knows?
I do remember reading there was a 70% increase in Vermin Media broadband subscriptions last year?
Thats a hell of a lot of new victims locked into 12 month contracts, more importantly its a very sizable wad of additional revenue, revenue they should have been using to facilitate such expansionism.
Personally, i think they're an incompetant bunch of liars, better suited to selling knock-off tat at the local carboot :dozey:
Ignitionnet
12-02-2009, 12:48
This new STM is just not environmentally friendly, I have proof!
http://i11.tinypic.com/6akm2kh.jpg
This new STM is just not environmentally friendly, I have proof!
http://i11.tinypic.com/6akm2kh.jpg
I knew if i gave you that link you'd use it on here :D
Ignitionnet
12-02-2009, 12:55
I knew if i gave you that link you'd use it on here :D
One of the many places young man, one of the many! :angel:
KingDaveRa
13-02-2009, 12:27
I've just been doing some reading, and come to a conclusion.
Virgin are stuck.
From my understanding of how the network is laid out, the CTMS for me would probably be in Watford... so it's probably covering quite a large area. That's not a problem, but the network is going to be rather loaded. There's a fixed number of frequencies to shove my data into, and as they're shared, they're filling up rapidly. Surely the only way for Virgin to get around it is to split down the network into smaller chunks, and install more CTMSes at the regional headend. That would probably require splitting out some of the main fibres running to Watford, and running even more. Plus all the extra infrastructure needed to connect everything up. Do that across all the headends, and it'll cost a fortune.
So rather than investing - like every other ISP - they're squeezing for all their worth, and basically milking what they have. They probably have no money to invest in networks, and nobody will give them money to invest, so rather they're taking a short-term view of headline-grabbing speeds, and pulling in customers. That explains the minimum 1-year contract, because they know full-well people will probably want to flee when they realise it isn't what they expected; plenty of ADSL ISPs with decent networks have very short contracts because they CAN deliver the product. Just as I left Be, they announced a massive network investment.
Trouble is the VM network is a hodge-podge of networks, and just has not scaled. It was all designed for analogue, and not only that, it was designed to be a small, local network, serving the area it served, with the services it had. I wouldn't mind betting there's a group of core network techs trying to make the best of a bad thing. I'd love to hear their view on it, but I bet they would soon find themselves staring at a P45 if they did.
It's a crying shame, because VM probably have the capability to make the network something really great, but probably no money to do it.
That's my view, anyway :)
AbyssUnderground
13-02-2009, 13:13
KingDaveRa
I'm with you 100%. Virgin seems full of boffins who think speed is the answer, when in matter of fact stability and providing the speed reliably is more important. As you say Virgin just want a big e-penis to show off rather than being the provider people actually like.
At the moment I am happy with Virgins 10Mbps, I can deal with the lousy STM, and I do work my downloads around it, however if it becomes even more restricting then whats the point in even advertising it as 10Mbps? You might as well do what I've put in my services list, 2.5Mbps with bursts of 10Mbps. Thats what its going to become, and I won't let Ofcom or Virgin stand there and let it.
Welshchris
13-02-2009, 13:16
AbyssUnderground I'm with you on the unlimited status!!
How can it be unlimited when our speeds are limited for 5hr/7hr/10hrs this prevents us downloading the maximum data possible if we were not limited.
Anyone know how to put in a complaint to Ofcom, I know how on BBC watchdog!
I have posted this issue on VM's Newsgroup virginmedia.discussion.broadband under the title of 'New STM could be coming your way'
CREDIT to: broadbandking
Most people are agreeing with us, and saying the same thing. Have a look
OFTEL are the people u need to complain to not OFCOM and im with u on this all the way.
---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------
as soon as BE internet becomes available in swansea i will be switching to them. Im less than 1/2 a mile from the exchange and the Line into the flat and exchange supports LLU and ADSL 2 so i should be able to get their upto 24mb.
AbyssUnderground
13-02-2009, 13:17
AbyssUnderground I'm with you on the unlimited status!!
How can it be unlimited when our speeds are limited for 5hr/7hr/10hrs this prevents us downloading the maximum data possible if we were not limited.
Anyone know how to put in a complaint to Ofcom, I know how on BBC watchdog!
I have posted this issue on VM's Newsgroup virginmedia.discussion.broadband under the title of 'New STM could be coming your way'
CREDIT to: broadbandking
Most people are agreeing with us, and saying the same thing. Have a look
Another comment on this, how can Virgin advertise it as 10Mbps Unlimited since when STM kicks in its 2.5Mbps Unlimited? Thats 100% false advertising. It should be 10Mbps for xGB then 2.5Mbps Unlimited. Am I right?
chamelion
13-02-2009, 14:32
KingDaveRa
At the moment I am happy with Virgins 10Mbps, I can deal with the lousy STM, and I do work my downloads around it, however if it becomes even more restricting then whats the point in even advertising it as 10Mbps? You might as well do what I've put in my services list, 2.5Mbps with bursts of 10Mbps. Thats what its going to become, and I won't let Ofcom or Virgin stand there and let it.
i have to say, i read posts non stop about people b**ching about STM and bad speeds. they have a very public STM policy, you just need to know how to work the system rather than sit there and whine.
i have all my torrent apps to schedule speeds and downloads, i'm uneffected 99% of the times. i download bulk overnight, schedule stuff, make full use of the 3pm-4pm window where ther'es no STM. it's easy really, you don't hear me whining about it non stop.
btw, the check the bandwidth graph in your signature, that's me burning up your line :)
broadbandking
13-02-2009, 14:41
Another comment on this, how can Virgin advertise it as 10Mbps Unlimited since when STM kicks in its 2.5Mbps Unlimited? Thats 100% false advertising. It should be 10Mbps for xGB then 2.5Mbps Unlimited. Am I right?
As much as I agree with you mate this isn't going to change things because Virgin will just say you don't have a cap each which if you go over you are cut off or charge which to them means you can download as such as you want just at a slower speed than what your paying for thus UNLIMITED very clever for Virgin Media and other ISP's as they can throttle your bandwidth but as long as they don't have a monthly cap they can be called UNLIMITED, if only the UK government made the ruling like in USA where Comcast was ordered to allow P2P traffic not be singled out and throttled
---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:36 ----------
i have to say, i read posts non stop about people b**ching about STM and bad speeds. they have a very public STM policy, you just need to know how to work the system rather than sit there and whine.
i have all my torrent apps to schedule speeds and downloads, i'm uneffected 99% of the times. i download bulk overnight, schedule stuff, make full use of the 3pm-4pm window where ther'es no STM. it's easy really, you don't hear me whining about it non stop.
btw, the check the bandwidth graph in your signature, that's me burning up your line :)
Fair enough but what about the families that all want to use the connection but then they hit the limit because of legal things i/e i player,YouTube,xbox demos it all adds up, I myself don't really get affected by STM well not at the moment as I am on 50Mb , but I can see why people are annoyed, but if VM stm doesn't bother you then that's fine enjoy your connection just don't critise other people beause they would like the speed they pay for
AbyssUnderground
13-02-2009, 14:44
i have to say, i read posts non stop about people b**ching about STM and bad speeds. they have a very public STM policy, you just need to know how to work the system rather than sit there and whine.
i have all my torrent apps to schedule speeds and downloads, i'm uneffected 99% of the times. i download bulk overnight, schedule stuff, make full use of the 3pm-4pm window where ther'es no STM. it's easy really, you don't hear me whining about it non stop.
btw, the check the bandwidth graph in your signature, that's me burning up your line :)
I know how to manage my bandwidth just fine, but why should I have to? Thats my point. I always do my downloads after 9pm/overnight if I don't feel like being STM'ed. I whine about it because I can and it makes me feel better, you don't have to care! :p:
At least you proved my server can put out 100Mbps anyway... Most people say "its crap" when in fact its their lack of intelligence and using a proper FTP client that makes the speed suffer ;)
KingDaveRa
13-02-2009, 15:27
Virgin make a big noise about how you can download x number of MP3s or x number of videos and other fun things, which you most definitely can, but they don't actually want you doing it!
At the moment, it really doesn't affect me, but there's four of us using this connection for an all manner of things, and I think we could run into those sort of caps pretty quickly.
The subtext of the STM is 'here's a super fast pipe... just use it sparingly'.
I suppose for most folk, that's probably fine - hey, it's fine for me, as I'm very bursty in terms of traffic. It just flies in the face of using the internet for distribution of more and more things. I buy a lot of software online, and those downloads can be large, not to mention work things I sometimes do, and can end up downloading big files.
Just a shame VM keep on about their fibre optic intertubes, and these super speeds. Shame you can't hammer the crap out of them!
watzizname
13-02-2009, 15:39
i have to say, i read posts non stop about people b**ching about STM and bad speeds. they have a very public STM policy, you just need to know how to work the system rather than sit there and whine.
i have all my torrent apps to schedule speeds and downloads, i'm uneffected 99% of the times. i download bulk overnight, schedule stuff, make full use of the 3pm-4pm window where ther'es no STM. it's easy really, you don't hear me whining about it non stop.
btw, the check the bandwidth graph in your signature, that's me burning up your line :)
Well i have to say, i've read plenty of posts with people bitching about people bitching.
What you have to remember is VM don't have a VERY public STM policy at all, i know of at least 3 people in the real world that have signed up to what they were told, was an UNLIMITED service, and had never heard of STM, untill they phoned up to find out what was wrong with their connections.
I too download most of my stuff over night, but not everyone is happy to leave their machine on while in bed asleep, or lack the technical know how to queue stuff up ready for when they're at work earning the money needed to pay for the damned service.
And if you're of the mind that folk ought to be venting their anger at VM directly, rather than doing so on a board like this, you've obviously never had to deal with this company, on that level..
Anyway, glad to hear you've got a great service 99% of the time, here's hoping it'll remain that way for you, but should that 1% ever rear it's ugly head and become too much, it should be nice to know you have at least got this place to whine about it ;)
And yet we all go back to our 50, 20, 10Mb service and take it up the ass.
Who cares? us? they can and will do what they like, unless the masses of current people paying for it, left it and went to someone else.
Only then would they sit up and listen. Fact is, they must have enough new people coming in the door each month so keep ******** on us.
rickmiles
13-02-2009, 19:31
Hi there everyone!
This my first post and I have really been impressed with the amount of information that is on this forum!
I initially found the forum via Google.. anyways... about this STM stuff.
I upgraded from 2meg to 10meg a couple of days ago - Only cost me an extra £3 on top of my current £17 because I complained about being treated unfairly over new customers...
Anyways I was downloading some torrents last night and couldn't understand for the life of me why I was getting such **** speeds. Initially I thought it was due to my cable modem not downloading the new config file.. then I thought it was me who might not have reset it... puzzling! I spotted info about this new STM stuff and my mouth dropped wide open. For starters I live in Wigan and I'm almost 99% certain its in place already!
I was reading a few previous pages and people have mentioned it being capped until 11pm.. Well I was online until around 1am this morning and I still had a cap of around 270kbs (Around 2.2Mb) which would seem correct in relation to the 75% reduction in bandwidth on the 10meg line. Can anyone else confirm that the cap GETS removed at 11pm or does it continue until the 5/7/9Hours or whatever has elapsed....
Many Regards
Rick
Only then would they sit up and listen. Fact is, they must have enough new people coming in the door each month so keep ******** on us.
Out of all the people i have computer/internet related dealings with i`m lucky if one in ten knows what speed BB package their actually on,let alone what the actual speeds should be on that package.
Many of those have the largest package available with whatever ISP their with(bar the VM 50Mb..atm) but that`s either because they were sold more than they needed by unscrupulous reps or they just wanted the best/fastest available in the first place.
The point i`m making is that practically none would know just how little they were actually getting and as long as that`s the case the ISP`s will always get away with it.
Our ignorance is their bliss unfortunately.
*sloman*
18-02-2009, 15:47
more areas added:
Preston
Wigan
Blackpool
Aldershot
Acton
Other areas TBA
broadbandking
18-02-2009, 17:09
Why dont they just be done with it and roll it out now as its not going to change unless they limit it even more.
STM isn't too bad, you just have to plan your downloads if you are doing a big one. I remember old 56k modem days when BT used to disconnect you every 2 hours, forcing you to redial and reconnect making large downloads very hard if you did not have a downloads manager.
Things are far from perfect, but they could be a hell of a lot worse. The thing that miffs me off is that Virgin Media have a bad record of not informing the end user when they make changes. I usually hear of changes here in Cable Forum long before I get any press release to say what the changes are.
cook1984
18-02-2009, 23:35
I think another complaint to the ASA is in order, and maybe one to OFCOM too.
VM have no intention of providing the services they advertise. The ASA only let them off the "unlimited" claim because they were convinced (by the industry association, FFS) that STM was just "reasonable" network management.
Now VM are clearly just reducing service levels to the point where it is virtually impossible for anyone to use them to the advertised extent. STM is applied during peek times, i.e. the times when most people want to use their connections. The times when they pay to use their connections. Most people work during the day and sleep at night, so claiming you can have "unlimited 20 meg" at these times is clearly a con.
They should advertise the service as 5 meg with off peek 20 meg.
If/when this comes in I will be making the usual call to retentions to reduce my bill accordingly.
broadbandking
18-02-2009, 23:53
I think another complaint to the ASA is in order, and maybe one to OFCOM too.
VM have no intention of providing the services they advertise. The ASA only let them off the "unlimited" claim because they were convinced (by the industry association, FFS) that STM was just "reasonable" network management.
Now VM are clearly just reducing service levels to the point where it is virtually impossible for anyone to use them to the advertised extent. STM is applied during peek times, i.e. the times when most people want to use their connections. The times when they pay to use their connections. Most people work during the day and sleep at night, so claiming you can have "unlimited 20 meg" at these times is clearly a con.
They should advertise the service as 5 meg with off peek 20 meg.
If/when this comes in I will be making the usual call to retentions to reduce my bill accordingly.
And you will be told its in the T&C'S so like it or disc
Milambar
19-02-2009, 04:19
And you will be told its in the T&C'S so like it or disc
Except, for most people, you can't actually disc, because they have you locked into a contract. A contract that was taken out before they changed the STM rules, and the same contract lets them give it you up the ass without any come-backs.
Not that I want to disc, because even though BT have now enabled my local exchange for ADSL, I live so far away, all they can offer me is 256kbit ADSL. I just want VM to stop trying to shaft us all with ever more hostile STM levels.
cook1984
19-02-2009, 23:50
And you will be told its in the T&C'S so like it or disc
T&C's have nothing to do with it. They do not provide the service they advertise. Their advertising is misleading.
I have another complaint ready to fire off to the ASA the moment they bring in STM on 50 meg if they don't also take the claim about being able to download HD movies in under and hour at the same time.
Also, they don't even bother to email you when the T&Cs or STM changes. Ideally they should, according to the voluntary code, email you every time you are STM'ed (i.e. every day, sometimes twice). Conservatively that last one would generate hundreds of thousands of emails a day.
watzizname
20-02-2009, 05:46
T&C's have nothing to do with it. They do not provide the service they advertise. Their advertising is misleading.
I have another complaint ready to fire off to the ASA the moment they bring in STM on 50 meg if they don't also take the claim about being able to download HD movies in under and hour at the same time.
Also, they don't even bother to email you when the T&Cs or STM changes. Ideally they should, according to the voluntary code, email you every time you are STM'ed (i.e. every day, sometimes twice). Conservatively that last one would generate hundreds of thousands of emails a day.
Almost gives the impression Virgin:angel:Media dont want that information in the public domain, can't imagine why..
Of course it's possible they were just aware, that someone might try to colate such information, and who knows, maybe prove a figure other than 5%
Can't think of any other reasons why customers would be denied access to such useful information.
As for the weekends additional limits on the amount i can upload..
It boggles the mind that they're again restricting my upstream, it was already a joke, now it's seriously becoming an embarrassment.
*sloman*
20-02-2009, 09:28
Reading on the VM news groups this is not a trail now and will be rolled out throughout the network.
Check VM's .feedback group!
Can anyone else confirm that the cap GETS removed at 11pm or does it continue until the 5/7/9Hours or whatever has elapsed....
Only on the new STM trial (Preston and a few other small areas) does the cap get removed at 11pm...for all other areas who are on the current STM rules the cap will continue for 5 hours from the activation time (so if you activate STM just before 9pm it'll continue until just before 2am)
broadbandking
20-02-2009, 10:16
Reading on the VM news groups this is not a trail now and will be rolled out throughout the network.
Check VM's .feedback group!
Can you post a quote from the newsgroup
*sloman*
20-02-2009, 10:22
Can you post a quote from the newsgroup
I will when i am at home dude, i am at work.
The Title has "STM" in it and Broadbandings & VM tech support has posted in it.
If not i will post about 5pm when i get home.
Its VM tech support who say it too!!!
nutellajunkie
20-02-2009, 10:26
I knew some virgins lie, but they take the biscuit!
I would hate it if they opened a pharmacy, need I say more?
"Over the coming months, we'll be conducting a trial on the way we manage our network in certain parts of the country. During these months, we'll be making a few changes to our Traffic Management policy, to help us figure out how to improve the quality of service we provide to our customers."
b0llox.
I hope VM are the next victims of the credit crunch.
I'm safe as I'm already stm all day anyway due to an overloading UBR which isn't been fixed any day soon.
*sloman*
20-02-2009, 20:18
Can you post a quote from the newsgroup
Ok here it is the post is called 'STM and more VM lies?' in virginmedia.feedback
Hi Tosh,
It is being rolled out throughout the network (currently in Preston, Wigan
and Blackpool). Other areas to follow shortly.
Keep checking the following page for further areas:-
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/trafficTrial.html
--
Kind Regards
Lee Grant
Virgin Media Technical Support
http://status2.virginmedia.com/
Please bottom-post when responding to aid viewing for all readers, thank
you.
------------------and-----------------------
> The fact that you said it's being rolled out throughout the
> network....hardly a trial then is it?
>
> Every other trial has been localised, are you now saying it is national?
> Also, if it is a 'national' trial:
>
> a. why hasn't it been trialled nationally from day 1?
>
> b. how do we know when it is no longer is a trial (used to be no longer a
> trial when it was 'rolled out throughout the network')?
>
> Cheers
>
> Kol
>
> ...
Hi Kol,
A trial can be any size, the fact the trial is expanding to other areas of
the network does not make it any less of a trial.
> a. why hasn't it been trialled nationally from day 1?
We wanted to initially assess the impact on a small scale.
> b. how do we know when it is no longer is a trial (used to be no longer a
> trial when it was 'rolled out throughout the network')?
As mentioned previously please check the follow page for updates on the
trial:-
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/trafficTrial.html
--
Kind Regards
Lee Grant
Virgin Media Technical Support
http://status2.virginmedia.com/
Please bottom-post when responding to aid viewing for all readers, thank
you.
Milambar
20-02-2009, 20:56
Acton has just been added to that page as a trial area.
TBH, the way they keep adding areas smells more like a sequential rollout rather than a trial. I think they are trying to roll it out, under the guise of "trial".
graf_von_anonym
20-02-2009, 23:09
I hope VM are the next victims of the credit crunch.
Yes, I do too. I think the very best thing is that millions of people lose their internet connection and thousands of people lose their jobs. I am absolutely certain that Virgin Media failing as a business is the best thing that could happen. I especially think that as the Internet is so trivial an element of modernising the British economy that the Government would be overjoyed to have millions of people disconnected, and as such would not provide guarantees or taxpayer money to keep the business afloat. I'm even more certain that changing the management or partly nationalising the company would solve all the logistic and capacity issues instantaneously. I mean, that kind of intervention had such positive effects with simple things like the railways and the banks that I cannot imagine there being any difficulties whatsoever with such a project. I'm also sure that the fact that Virgin Media are listed on an American stock exchange though they trade in the UK makes two countries eager for it to fail as a business.
I mean, that would be the very best thing, wouldn't it? Better even than Christmas.
cook1984
20-02-2009, 23:34
The stupid thing is that VM are "upgrading" people with faster connections, but at the same time downgrading them with more and more STM.
Clearly, they just want the headline numbers without actually having to provide the service.
brundles
21-02-2009, 08:27
The stupid thing is that VM are "upgrading" people with faster connections, but at the same time downgrading them with more and more STM.
Clearly, they just want the headline numbers without actually having to provide the service.
What they want is pay-per-usage rather than unlimited. They know there is a big chunk of people on 10meg happy with the speed but running it heavily and are trying to "encourage" them to upgrade to 20meg.
IMO, those limits have never been about capacity limitations but more about trying to sell unnecessary upgrades.
yorkshireborn
21-02-2009, 08:57
if 50% of customers downgraded to the speed they get capped they would soon scrap STM
at the end of the day all virgin are trying to do is get back maximum profit for the least outlay.
*sloman*
21-02-2009, 10:33
if 50% of customers downgraded to the speed they get capped they would soon scrap STM
at the end of the day all virgin are trying to do is get back maximum profit for the least outlay.
Or ring up and kick of like i did, now have 20mb for £20 per month
cook1984
21-02-2009, 19:29
They are fighting against the incoming tide. As services like iPlayer get more popular, the average user is using more and more bandwidth, and most of it at peek times.
brundles
22-02-2009, 13:41
They are fighting against the incoming tide. As services like iPlayer get more popular, the average user is using more and more bandwidth, and most of it at peek times.
Hence my earlier post. They know people don't need anything faster than they have now but just that people are using it more at the same time and actually using the capacity they're paying for rather than what VM want them to use.
Jonathan90
22-02-2009, 14:23
Secretley what they have done is already configured it and flipping switches in different towns and city's lol thats whats really going on.
jailhouse
22-02-2009, 20:30
I have just posted in another section and then come across this.
Here is what i have experienced over the past few weeks.
I work 10pm until around 6/8 am, and i do not use my PC until around 4pm,and then for no other use than surfing the net, updating the software, browsing youtube and talking to mates around the world via web cam, but for a while now i can hardly get above 4Mb.
Having called VM i have been told the following:
I have a virus - I use Kaspersky AV Suite and it has picked nothing up, and to back it up i have done online scans using ousecall from McAfee.
I have malware - Spybot S&D has found nothing, Ad Aware neither, and i use CCleaner to clean my machine.
I am downloading lots of items from the internet - Other than the updates for the software on my PCs' I don't.
I think VM are carrying out mass STM measures from a certain time, no matter how much of your usage you have used.
jh
graf_von_anonym
22-02-2009, 21:49
I think VM are carrying out mass STM measures from a certain time, no matter how much of your usage you have used.
I think what's more likely is that your UBR is oversubscribed, and that at peak times the 4Mb figure is all that's available. So it's not that you are being traffic managed, but that your connection is slow. The same effect, but very different causes.
Though in fairness you could be saturating your upload or running two firewalls or downloading from sites with limited bandwidth or sitting behind a misconfigured router or a few other things. Regarding your virus concern, I remind you that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but you can check your netstat logs and see how many connections are being opened.
That said, it could be the Packet/Application/Routing-Analysis Network Operation Inhibiting Apparatus.
JamieA119
01-04-2009, 13:13
Have these new trials started yet?
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