Upload speeds

[Greyze]

Hey all.

I got a question on upload speeds.

I'm currently on the 2MB package from VM, and my max upload speed is 15KB. Im quite peeved sinse for Fibre Optic.. VM should forc out a bit more than that :S

Anyway, im wondering what the other VM packages give. I know they dont give much of an increase, but im curious on what it is exactly. Im sure I read somewhere the 20MB package gives out upto 90KB upload speeds?

And one more thing... Is there any way to get VM to give out more uploading speed? do I have to pay extra? use a special service or something?

I do alot of uploading and now recently hosting online games, with the new CoD 5 game, to play certain modes (unpopular ones) you need to host urself, I can handle 1-2 people on the server.. but more is too much, and even with 1-2, they get roughly 70-100ping

[Noggo]

`L' will give you upstream speed 512Kb/s (64KB/s)
and
`XL' will give you upstream speed 768Kb/s (90KB/s)

If your hosting you'll need an upload speed of about 10KB/s per player connected, depending on what in-game network settings are use. If you what XL the standard price is £ 37 / month no it's own (£36 with ebilling). But I would ring Virgin up to see if you can get a good monthly price which would tie you into a 12 month contract and may also involve you taking out the phone line (£30 install for phone, I think).

I've no idea whether or not you can pay extra for some more upload speed to be added. If not, your only option to increase your upload over 90KB/s would be to move to ADSL2+ if it's available on your BT exchange. Look here: http://www.samknows.com/broadband/checker2.php

you should get a list like this:
Congratulations, you are in a broadband enabled area.
The following services are available in your location:

BT Wholesale ADSL
BT Wholesale ADSL Max
BT Wholesale WBC (21CN)
BT Wholesale SDSL
AOL LLU
O2 / Be LLU
Bulldog LLU
TalkTalk (CPW) LLU
Sky Broadband / Easynet LLU
Tiscali LLU
Tiscali TV (via Tiscali LLU)
Orange LLU (Formerly Wanadoo)
Virgin Media (Cable)
Please select the options on the left for more information about broadband availability at your location


To check to see what line speed you should get, look here:
http://www.adslchecker.bt.com/pls/adsl/ADSLChecker.postcode


If you are going to go down the route of getting ADSL. I would choose, if available www.bethere.co.uk, upload either 1.3Mb/s (166KB/s) or 2.5Mb/s (320 KB/s) with pro if your line will allow it. Owned by O2 now and use same equipment, but O2 doesn't have fastpath option which you'll need for gaming (forum webby: http://www.beforum.co.uk)

Laters and hf

Noggo

[General Maximus]

The reason why I have always had the fastest connection around is because although the increased download speed is nice, it is the upload speed i wanted. Apart from doing a lot of gaming i download a lot through torrents as well. When i was on 10mbit a couple of years ago i could download stuff reasonably fast but it felt like it took forever to upload it all again. I wanted 20mbit just to reduce my upload times which is why I am going to get 50mbit when I can. If you have got the dosh 768k up (20mbit package) is good for gaming. I have been playing a lot of Left 4 Dead (4 person shooter) since it came out in November and it is great being able to host your own games off your connection.

If you are a serious uploader/gamer 20mbit is the connection to have. Everyone will say 768k up (and 1.75mbit on the 50mbit package) is no where near enough and we always want more, but we have to use what we have got and at the moment it is the best we can get.

Be careful if you if you have a look at another isp like Be. Just because you have got a phone line doesnt mean that you can have their 24*2.5. Whack your post code into samknows (link in post above) to tell you what you can get. If you want a super fast connection with a better upload speed i think it has to be LLU enabled (or something like that). I would happily leave VM and go to another isp which provides a reduced download speed and an increased upload speed but at the moment I can't because of the exchange i am connected to. The fastest downstream speed i can receive atm is 3.5mbit and that makes VM the lesser of 2 evils :)

[Greyze]

Thanks alot for the info guys.

I must say its redicilous, for supposedly great internet.. the upload speeds VM gives us is very poor :S

If I was on 20Mbit.. Id gladly sacrifice half of that for more upload speed.

Edit: Awesome Forum too by the way!

[General Maximus]

I completely agree, I would rather have 10x3 than 20x.768 and as for the 50mbit, instead of 50x1.75 i would love to have 20x5

[cablestrider]

yep, one more person here totally agrees with you guys. VM offer a superb service but it lacks bad with these upload speeds. We're on the 10mb connection and that gives me about 1.2mb/sec download (great!) and only about 60kb/sec upload. (okay, better than when we had with BT/Zen ISP as that was 30kb/sec!)

I upload a lot of content to my Mac/gaming site (no flames please :P ) and I'd love to have something better than what I have. Trouble is, I'd hate to leave VM as we love the socks of 'em! Tv/Phone/Net/it's great!

Hoping they change and update their upstream SOON !

[Kymmy]

One of the reasons (as well as the sticky IP) I'm on a business connection..10Mb/700Kb The ratios a lot better though they tried to get me to upgrade to 20Mb with an upload of 1Mb..might have done apart from the lack of Sticky IP's on 20Mb atm until they migrate to the docsis 2/3 network..

But yes even at the business end the upload is pathetic, but then that's how they justify selling high capacity leased lines ...

[Graham M]

Also isn't upload bandwidth more expensive?

[Kymmy]

Also isn't upload bandwidth more expensive?

I don;t know about more expensive, but it would come at a cost to download speeds... and as in this country we seem to have a fascination with faster and faster download I don't think VM would be happy doing that..

[Ignitionnet]

Also isn't upload bandwidth more expensive?

Not really, since DOCSIS 2.

With MC28 line cards the bandwidth isn't far off symettrical, and can potentially be upload biased so long as the local networks are up to it.

[General Maximus]

with the advent of docsis 3 then do you think we might see a change in VM's approach t oconnections and they might start offering ones with better ratios because they can handle it now? Maybe that is why they are happy to bump the upload from 1.75 to 2.5mbit on 50mbit.

[Andrewcrawford23]

with the advent of docsis 3 then do you think we might see a change in VM's approach t oconnections and they might start offering ones with better ratios because they can handle it now? Maybe that is why they are happy to bump the upload from 1.75 to 2.5mbit on 50mbit.

Doubt it, they have only ever sold for download not the upload, the amount of users they seeing wanting the higher uploads are small, dnt get me wrong i lvoe the 50mb to have at least 5mb but i dnt see it happening anytime soon, plus they need ot roll out upload bonding i think

[AppleSauce]

I bet most people want higher upload speeds just for torrents, imo if you want to be able to upload at high speeds go buy/rent a server for a month and do it right.

[Andrewcrawford23]

I bet most people want higher upload speeds just for torrents, imo if you want to be able to upload at high speeds go buy/rent a server for a month and do it right.

Acutally i want higher upload speeds for uploading to webserver and vpn traffic with my family since i host the network

[Rik]

Is there any truth in the age old excuse of "Its due to the nature of how Cable works" ;)

Would that wash once upgraded to the Docsis 3 network for instance? becuase the upload is still pretty dire on 50Mb.

[Andrewcrawford23]

Is there any truth in the age old excuse of "Its due to the nature of how Cable works" ;)

Would that wash once upgraded to the Docsis 3 network for instance? becuase the upload is still pretty dire on 50Mb.

techincal yes, the head end aint got symictically bandwidth ie download 160 upload 120 but with tha tabout of bandwidth available there shouldnt be problem with giving more uplaod speeds but a si said befor ei doubt they will they see it as a niche market as towho wans it

[AppleSauce]

Acutally i want higher upload speeds for uploading to webserver and vpn traffic with my family since i host the network

I said most.

[Ignitionnet]

Is there any truth in the age old excuse of "Its due to the nature of how Cable works" ;)

Would that wash once upgraded to the Docsis 3 network for instance? becuase the upload is still pretty dire on 50Mb.

Not since DOCSIS 2 there hasn't been any truth behind that excuse really.

An average VM area runs 4 x 3.2MHz wide upstreams at 8.8Mbit usable bandwidth per upstream, next to 38Mbit of downstream, yes that's nearly symmetrical at 35.2Mbit upstream and 38Mbit downstream.

Then we mush about with things a bit, using DOCSIS 2 we can increase the bandwidth per upstream by 50% - so that 8.8Mbit becomes 13.2Mbit usable per upstream, making the upstream higher than downstream.

Then we take those 4 upstreams and make them into 2 upstreams, but wider, to improve statistical contention, so we have 2 x 26.4Mbit upstreams feeding a 38Mbit downstream.

Too long didn't read answer - no, so long as the network is properly maintained how cable works isn't an excuse at all ;)

---------- Post added at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was at 23:01 ----------

techincal yes, the head end aint got symictically bandwidth ie download 160 upload 120 but with tha tabout of bandwidth available there shouldnt be problem with giving more uplaod speeds but a si said befor ei doubt they will they see it as a niche market as towho wans it

That's not entirely accurate info, bonding 4 standard DOCSIS downstreams gives 152Mbit of downstream bandwidth, however VM are using EuroDOCSIS giviing about 204Mbit downstream bandwidth on a 4 tuner modem such as the Ambit that they are supplying. There's about 105Mbit of upstream available bonding 4 upstreams together, however this 2:1 ratio is obviously far better than the 34:1 that the 50Mbit offers.

If they stretch the capability of the network and ensure that the areas perform, and analogue switchoff will help a great deal with this, then the potential is there for a much higher level of upstream.

UPC are presently delivering 60/6 and 120/10 over EuroDOCSIS 3 without using bonded upstreams. They are squeezing every drop of upstream bandwidth they can get out of their network, from 8.8Mbit 3.2MHz 16QAM upstream right through to 6.4MHz 64QAM 25.2Mbit upstreams.

[Andrewcrawford23]

Not since DOCSIS 2 there hasn't been any truth behind that excuse really.

An average VM area runs 4 x 3.2MHz wide upstreams at 8.8Mbit usable bandwidth per upstream, next to 38Mbit of downstream, yes that's nearly symmetrical at 35.2Mbit upstream and 38Mbit downstream.

Then we mush about with things a bit, using DOCSIS 2 we can increase the bandwidth per upstream by 50% - so that 8.8Mbit becomes 13.2Mbit usable per upstream, making the upstream higher than downstream.

Then we take those 4 upstreams and make them into 2 upstreams, but wider, to improve statistical contention, so we have 2 x 26.4Mbit upstreams feeding a 38Mbit downstream.

Too long didn't read answer - no, so long as the network is properly maintained how cable works isn't an excuse at all ;)

---------- Post added at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was at 23:01 ----------



That's not entirely accurate info, bonding 4 standard DOCSIS downstreams gives 152Mbit of downstream bandwidth, however VM are using EuroDOCSIS giviing about 204Mbit downstream bandwidth on a 4 tuner modem such as the Ambit that they are supplying. There's about 105Mbit of upstream available bonding 4 upstreams together, however this 2:1 ratio is obviously far better than the 34:1 that the 50Mbit offers.

If they stretch the capability of the network and ensure that the areas perform, and analogue switchoff will help a great deal with this, then the potential is there for a much higher level of upstream.

UPC are presently delivering 60/6 and 120/10 over EuroDOCSIS 3 without using bonded upstreams. They are squeezing every drop of upstream bandwidth they can get out of their network, from 8.8Mbit 3.2MHz 16QAM upstream right through to 6.4MHz 64QAM 25.2Mbit upstreams.

I know it can be done but as i said since it aint synmettical they can still get away witht eh excuse its cable, but they could easily offer higher upload just now they jsut dnt want to

[AbyssUnderground]

I don't get why. People do want higher upload, and are prepared to pay for it. Why won't they offer it?!

Wouldn't it make sense to have say an "upload plus" addon? Pay £10/month more for extra upload or something like that? It would be for people who did want it, and those who know why they need it.

Anyone who could suggest this to the people at VM here? If so, please do. They'd make a fair bit of money out of it...

I'd be happy enough to pay £10/month more for 2Mbps more upload or something like that...

[Stabhappy]

£10 for something they can offer for free? It's because of people willing to spend so much that the 50mb package (nothing new in other countries) is over 50 pounds.

[AbyssUnderground]

You're right but apparently it costs them too much to offer it so they won't... But if we pay for it they can't refuse, right?

[cabsandy]

VM dont do channel bonding by the way and wont for a while. One more point-because of the lack of UCB, then you can have all the upstream bandwidth you want, in terms of channels (8 x 3.2 x 16QAM=64Mb/sec usable bandwidth)but the modem can only use 1 of those upstream channels. So that's 8-9Mb/secs for each channel.Now, if your have 200 modems on that channel, and give everybody 2Mb/sec up, 4 users on that channel saturate the channel. You can load balance, yes, but only to a certain extent.

So VM are very careful in how they allocate the upstream bandwidth as to not oversubscribe the channels. They don't do it to p*ss people off, trust me ;)

[RubberyDuck]

Docsis/EuroDocis 2 and 3 can support around 27Mbit upload per channel, whereas v1 can only handle around 9Mbit.

My point being, when the L and XL tiers are moved over to the new docsis 3 connection (albeit on docsis 2), they can effectively increase the upload speed 3 fold.

I don't believe they are not going to do this for the L and XL tiers, but the XXL (50Mbit) tier could quite easily be increased to well over 2Mbit by doing the maths.

[General Maximus]

just because they can doesnt mean they will. They only seem to do stuff when they have to and that is it. They would have kept 50mbit at 1.5mbit up if they could get away with it but they knew 1.5mbit upload cannot sustain 50mbit down which is why they had to bump it up to 1.75mbit up.

[Ignitionnet]

VM dont do channel bonding by the way and wont for a while. One more point-because of the lack of UCB, then you can have all the upstream bandwidth you want, in terms of channels (8 x 3.2 x 16QAM=64Mb/sec usable bandwidth)but the modem can only use 1 of those upstream channels. So that's 8-9Mb/secs for each channel.Now, if your have 200 modems on that channel, and give everybody 2Mb/sec up, 4 users on that channel saturate the channel. You can load balance, yes, but only to a certain extent.

So VM are very careful in how they allocate the upstream bandwidth as to not oversubscribe the channels. They don't do it to p*ss people off, trust me ;)

Totally trust you :)

How about using 3.2MHz 64QAM, or even 6.4MHz 64QAM channels? Certainly the US where for obvious reasons the subsplits on the networks tend to be lower, they appear to tend to have larger upstreams, right up to 10Mbit on their 50Mbit product unbonded. Standard tiers have 1 and 2Mbit.

Also I'm thinking that on that example of 200 modems per channel you gave if it's a single DOCSIS half of an MC28 then there's going to be 800 modems on the downstream, which will likely be only 38Mbit so 2 x XL customers or 4 x L customers out of the 800 will saturate that downstream but it doesn't stop VM from selling XL and L.

In any case would keep you busy for a while cleaning up the nework to support ATDMA :angel: