Virgin looking at implementing 15% VAT rate (was VM say no to 15% VAT)

[telfordcable]

I had rang up to find out if my broadband price of £26 a month for 12 months deal last june 2008 will be reduce in 1st of December, and guess what, they refuse it and say the price of XL for £26 a month for 12 months is already in an agreement deal between yourself and VM company. The VAT remain at 17.5% under the deal that you had first signed up.

But, VM say the new VAT of 15% will be available from 1st of DEcember but only for new customers who sign up on the 1st of December not before.

That's is WRONGFUL. It against the LAW to cut VAT for everyones.

[bob_a_builder]

um - interesting one

Any tax experts / accountants around ?

[King Of Fools]

You will pay the new VAT rate but the ex-VAT price will be adjusted to make the end price stay £26.

[Graham M]

That's is WRONGFUL. It against the LAW to cut VAT for everyones.


Pardon?

[Kymmy]

Hey, good thought..

That means my payment will be a quid cheaper next month :)

[bmxbandit]

Unless the contract was for a price exclusive of VAT, then I don't see how the price will change? Your contract is for £26/month.

[Kymmy]

Unless the contract was for a price exclusive of VAT, then I don't see how the price will change? Your contract is for £26/month.

Exactly, my contract is ex-vat ;) But I am on a business account

[BenMcr]

The OP spoke to an idiot.

Virgin WILL pass on the reduction to all customers as soon as they can

[chrisjones]

Good to know VM actively employ 'idiots'. :-P

[Noggo]

The deal you signed up for was £22.13 + £3.87 (17.5% VAT) = £ 26.00
After the 1st December you should be £ 22.13 + £3.32 (15% VAT) = £ 25.45

What you're described is VM putting the initial non-VAT price up to compensate to get to the £ 26/month price, £ 22.61 + £ 3.39 (15% VAT) = £ 26.00
Which I think would be wrong, because it saves Joe public nowt.

---------- Post added at 14:20 ---------- Previous post was at 14:16 ----------

woohoo they are reducing VAT properly.

What’s you going to spend your 55p on :)

lol I've just worked out my saving and it's only 40p, oh well, every little helps!

[MovedGoalPosts]

Prices to the consumer are supposed to be displayed / charged as the total amount they must pay. Whilst a lot of places, to make themselves look cheaper, actually quote prices as "exclusive or plus VAT", that is incorrect and is only suited to business users. It may well be that a bill is presented to a consumer that shows the VAT breakdown on the amount paid, but, as far as the consumer is concerned it's the final price that is the sole concern.

It may seem to go against the grain, and it's not in the spirit of labour's tax cuts, but since VAT should be transparent to the user, if a company just wishes to adjust it's own internal breakdown, that is allowed.

[telfordcable]

i going to use 55p a month on my energy bill. That's would make a sense. 13 months of VAT at 15% until January 1st 2011 and then I bet Labour will put it up to 20% VAT.

[internetfred]

Virgin WILL pass on the reduction to all customers as soon as they can

I think by law they have too

[Noggo]

Yes by law they will have to charge VAT at 15%. But what it doesn't do, is stop them from putting the non-VAT price up if they wanted to.

[zaax]

If VM charge 17.5% VAT that 17.5% must be paid to HMGOV otherwise it's fraud.

[Stuart]

I had rang up to find out if my broadband price of £26 a month for 12 months deal last june 2008 will be reduce in 1st of December, and guess what, they refuse it and say the price of XL for £26 a month for 12 months is already in an agreement deal between yourself and VM company. The VAT remain at 17.5% under the deal that you had first signed up.

But, VM say the new VAT of 15% will be available from 1st of DEcember but only for new customers who sign up on the 1st of December not before.

That's is WRONGFUL. It against the LAW to cut VAT for everyones.

It's also incorrect. According to one of our contacts:


A Virgin Media spokesperson said: "While implementing these changes across our large customer base is a significant logistical challenge, we intend to ensure the Government's rate cut is passed on to our customers as quickly and simply as possible."


So, yes, they have every intention of passing the savings on, but cannot do so at the moment.

[v0id]

I think the thread title needs to be changed then ;)

[Stuart]

Done.

[King Of Fools]

So, yes, they have every intention of passing the savings on, but cannot do so at the moment.
So does that mean that from 1st December Virgin will adjust the ex-VAT prices upwards such that the inclusive price is unchanged and at some point in the future they will lower their prices points?

[Stuart]

So does that mean that from 1st December Virgin will adjust the ex-VAT prices upwards such that the inclusive price is unchanged and at some point in the future they will lower their prices points?

You know as much as I do.

[MovedGoalPosts]

I'd imagine that VM will be in the same boat as many companies and a bit caught out by this change which wasn't forecast. OK so VAT is a tax rate that can be changed. Billing systems though will need to be reprogrammed. That may not be something that can be done at a drop of a hat. Given too that many bills for systems such as VM's are raised in advance, there are going to be a lot of sleepless nights amongst some IT people to sort it all out.

[Milambar]

If a billing system needs to be reprogrammed to account for a tax rate change, which should be a VARIABLE (meaning its value can be varied), then they need a new billing package. It should be just a matter of an authorised executive updating the tax rate from a control pannel somewhere in the system.

As for passing it back to us, I can't see that happening. they will just put the ex-vat prices up and pocket the difference.

Still, they could prove me wrong on this, and I hope they do. Money IS that tight that a 2.5% change in tax does make a difference over the course of a year. A very minor one, true, but still a difference.

[Stuart]

If a billing system needs to be reprogrammed to account for a tax rate change, which should be a VARIABLE (meaning its value can be varied), then they need a new billing package. It should be just a matter of an authorised executive updating the tax rate from a control pannel somewhere in the system.



Ok. Think about this. Virgin have multiple billing systems. They also have to send out 3 million bills a month, so, to prevent the possibility of wrong or duplicate bills going out, they have to wait so that they are between print runs. This has to be co-ordinated nationally, and also across Scotland and Wales.

Finally, they may need to work out a way of backdating the VAT decrease in case the bill is issued after the deadline.

I don't know if that is the actual procedure they will follow, but you can bet that whatever procedure it is (and there *will* be a procedure), it'll be a lot more complicated than just changing one setting.

One other thing: I work in IT, and while I only deal with a few thousand users, I know from experience that if you introduce any change to a system with a lot of users/customers (and the VM billing system has thousands of users and millions of customers), you test every concievable aspect of the change on a test system first before rolling it out to the live system, no matter how simple the change. If you don't, you could make a mistake that would bankrupt the company.

You wouldn't normally notice this when VAT goes up, because the government normally allows time for changes to occur to systems.

[BenMcr]

Ok. Think about this. Virgin have multiple billing systems.
They have two ;) One for the fixed services and one for Virgin Mobile

---------- Post added at 18:08 ---------- Previous post was at 18:06 ----------

It is likely there will credits for anyone that has a billing period that spans the 1st December and the prices will then be amended for the next avaliable bill

Sort of the same they do for the price changes

[AndyCambs]

Having said that - Virgin always quote the prices as inclusive - 3 for £30, not 3 for £29.45 (or whatever...)

[BenMcr]

Thats the thing though. the 3 for £30 is with 17.5% VAT inclusive. So it would HAVE to be 3 for £28.46 with 15% VAT inclusive

[Turkey Machine]

I half-expect Virgin Media (along with most other greedy service providers) to merely adjust the core rate + VAT to what it was before the VAT cut, as oppose to simply cutting the VAT on a bill by 2.5%.

[Stephen]

They have two ;) One for the fixed services and one for Virgin Mobile
Wrong, lol. Don't forget the business billing systems ;):angel:

[Wicked_and_Crazy]

i believe your bill states 17.5% VAT for phone calls and for the rest of the bill it says "inclusive of VAT at the appropriate rate" so all VM have to do is change the billing for phone calls

[BenMcr]

Wrong, lol. Don't forget the business billing systems ;):angel:
Wouldn't those be ex-VAT anyway? :confused:

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

i believe your bill states 17.5% VAT for phone calls and for the rest of the bill it says "inclusive of VAT at the appropriate rate" so all VM have to do is change the billing for phone calls
No they don't. They have to change everything

I have a figure of £100 ex VAT. If then include VAT at the appropriate rate when it was/will be 17.5% then I would be charged £117.50

If the VAT is included at the 15% rate I would be charged £115

[Wicked_and_Crazy]

Wouldn't those be ex-VAT anyway? :confused:

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------


No they don't. They have to change everything

I have a figure of £100 ex VAT. If then include VAT at the appropriate rate when it was/will be 17.5% then I would be charged £117.50

If the VAT is included at the 15% rate I would be charged £115


why?? there is no law that says the VAT cut has to be passed on to the consumer.

If your paying £25 incl VAT (inclusive of VAT at the appropriate rate, as the bill says) for your broadband there is no reason why VM have to change anything other than the amount they pay in tax.

[BenMcr]

It's not them paying the tax it is you! And yes I'm pretty sure there ARE laws to make Virgin (and every other company) use the reduced VAT rate.

The only way a company would not pass it on is if they then increased their ex-VAT price to compensate

[LSainsbury]

I know this thread is discussing VM services but I wonder if this will also apply to Sky services?

[MovedGoalPosts]

The same principle applies to all companies. They will charge VAT at the prevailing rate at the time of invoicing. But there is nothing to stop companies raising their base charge so the end price payable by the consumer isn't altered.

Bear in mind too that given the pay in advance nature of many Virgin Media services, VAT will already have ben charged at the current 17.5% rate for the month in hand. Only at the next invoicing date would the lower rate apply.

We already have a statement from VM that they will be passing the cut on http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34682765-post16.html

However where someone like Virgin Media had nicely rounded, inclusive of VAT charges such as the 3 for £30 deals, it's quite likely that new rounded inclusive of VAT packages will be setup in the future, at least for marketing purposes.

[King Of Fools]

Also for things like phone calls where the price is currently 3p per minute inclusive of 17.5% VAT. Virgin are not going to change the price per minute to 2.936p per minute - no company in their sane mind would price at that point. They will just increase the ex-VAT price from 2.553p to 2.609p.

[Noggo]

Also for things like phone calls where the price is currently 3p per minute inclusive of 17.5% VAT. Virgin are not going to change the price per minute to 2.936p per minute - no company in their sane mind would price at that point. They will just increase the ex-VAT price from 2.553p to 2.609p.

Yes they can increase the ex-VAT price, but it isn't exactly what the government had intended the reduction in VAT for.

[CrowmanUK]

The missus works as an auditor at a large wholesalers, theyre having a nightmare as they have to change all the tickets on their products in a week, it takes the missus 2 months to complete an audit of non food items.
The whole vat thing will be a complete balls up if you ask me, I cant see any company taking 2.5% off all their stuff, how will they make it £9.99 then and not seem like it costs a tenner, as has been posted before all that will happen is they'll increase the preVAT price so their selling prices remain the same, call me cynical but I can see 13 months of no difference in prices followed by more no difference in prices. Thanks again Mr Budget Maker!

[Gary L]

Reading through some of the posts where people are saying that they will increase the pre-VAT prices to compensate. if they did that then they would have to inform us customers that there's price increases on everything. and that will be just as bad as any other price increase when they happen.

I know it's only about 50p in some cases but all them 50p's make millions of pounds, and when someone is expecting to save money they don't expect to be suddenly told that there is yet another price increase.

[moiraf100]

Couldn't they just take 2.5% off the total bill?
I can't see them changing the whole billing system as the VAT will be going back up in January 2010.

[Kymmy]

Would be nice but as a lot of items are reduced VAT or VAT exempt it wouldn;t work everywhere that sells mixed items

[moiraf100]

I meant Virgin taking 2.5% off. Or aren't all their services vatable?
Shops would be difficult I understand that.

[Chrysalis]

Yes they can increase the ex-VAT price, but it isn't exactly what the government had intended the reduction in VAT for.

personally I think it was a stealth way to boost profits and was intended for companies to maintain the same retail price and getting a short term boost from reduced vat.

As far as VM are concerned they sell a product to you with a including vat price, if the including vat price does not change the contract isnt broken.

So far on various forums I have seen consumers making a fuss why? how much do you save on a 2.1% saving on your bill.

[Kymmy]

Ahh, sorry just the discussion went backwards/forwards for a bit :)

[Chrysalis]

Reading through some of the posts where people are saying that they will increase the pre-VAT prices to compensate. if they did that then they would have to inform us customers that there's price increases on everything. and that will be just as bad as any other price increase when they happen.

I know it's only about 50p in some cases but all them 50p's make millions of pounds, and when someone is expecting to save money they don't expect to be suddenly told that there is yet another price increase.

no it wouldnt be a price increase. The price you pay is inclusive of VAT, not exclusive with VAT added on. Thats a big difference.

[Stephen]

I don't think they will actually take off 2.5% as all the sites I have seen, like amazon and currys that have already actioned the reduction in VAT have it as a 2.13% discount.

[Gary L]

no it wouldnt be a price increase. The price you pay is inclusive of VAT, not exclusive with VAT added on. Thats a big difference.

But if you asked them for a breakdown of the prices with the now 15% vat, the price would have to be reduced to account for the 15% now.
and the price before VAT would show as being increased to make it still the same figure.

Even if that is not what would happen, people will still feel that they should have a reduction.

[Zhadnost]

I don't think they will actually take off 2.5% as all the sites I have seen, like amazon and currys that have already actioned the reduction in VAT have it as a 2.13% discount.

That's because that's how much the discount would be as a fraction of the final price.

|1 - 115/117.5| = 0.021276596 .....

[Chrysalis]

yes its nearer 2.1% because the vat is applied on top of 100% so 117.5%.

[dgardner]

I think VM would have to reduce the overall price rather than upping the ex vat price as this reduction is only for a couple of years then VAT will increase to 18% so they will end up losing a lot of money

[darkbeing]

If VM charge 17.5% VAT that 17.5% must be paid to HMGOV otherwise it's fraud.

Nobody is disputing that, but what people are saying is that
If for example your services cost £117.50 which includes the 17.5% vat

then when vat drops to 15% all VM will do is to charge 15% vat but put up the price that the vat applies to and that will make the service cost 117.50
but with the savings that the gvt introduced going to VM

[King Of Fools]

Just got my December bill and VAT was charged at the correct rate of 15% but none of the inc-VAT charges had decreased. So that settles it the ex-VAT prices have been put up!

[Wicked_and_Crazy]

So, yes, they have every intention of passing the savings on, but cannot do so at the moment.

So they have a brand new billing system that can't handle VAT rate changes simply!!! That was well designed!

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Just got my December bill and VAT was charged at the correct rate of 15% but none of the inc-VAT charges had decreased. So that settles it the ex-VAT prices have been put up!

Theres a shock, could have predicted that ;)

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34683095-post29.html

[BenMcr]

So they have a brand new billing system that can't handle VAT rate changes simply!!! That was well designed!
It's not that simple though, because I bet if they were to just change the VAT rate it wouldn't just affect the charges but the discounts as well.

Theres a shock, could have predicted that ;)

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34683095-post29.html
Yes you took a cheap shot at Virgin whilst ignoring what they have told their customers

http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/vat-changes.php

...all other services on your bill will continue to be charged at 17.5%. Don’t worry though, we’ll keep track of your bills and credit back the difference (from 1st December onwards) as soon as we can.

[skin_2]

I'm still being charged £25 a month for size L broadband, if the VAT reduction had been implemented without increasing the net price then I should be paying £24.46. However, this is what they say on their website:

On services where VAT applies, we’ll calculate the cost using the 17.5% VAT rate and we will then credit back the difference in the following month’s bill. So you’ll never be out of pocket. The credit will be in the ‘Refunds and Adjustments’ section of your bill and will be called ‘VAT credit’.

The first VAT credit will appear on your January 2009 bill for charges incurred in December.

The trick here is that they hang onto the VAT difference for a month which will be a lot of money for them. The legality of doing this is highly questionable - after all, who would buy something from a shop for £100 including VAT at 17.5% (£85.11 net), then go back a month later for a refund of £2.12? Ofcom should be investigating this.

[BenMcr]

The legality of doing this is highly questionable - after all, who would buy something from a shop for £100 including VAT at 17.5% (£85.11 net), then go back a month later for a refund of £2.12? Ofcom should be investigating this.
Have you complained to OFCOM about this? What have they said? Be sure to get them to investigate Sky and BT along with Virgin as both of those companies did not make the VAT change straight away.

The legality of it is the government dropped a VAT cut on business with no advance warning. Virgin changed the cost of the calls immediately, but the other prices were more complicated.

[Digital Fanatic]

Have you complained to OFCOM about this? What have they said? Be sure to get them to investigate Sky and BT along with Virgin as both of those companies did not make the VAT change straight away.

The legality of it is the government dropped a VAT cut on business with no advance warning. Virgin changed the cost of the calls immediately, but the other prices were more complicated.

Ben, as usual some people are out with their pitch forks wanting to hunt down and kill Virgin Media for the slightest possibility of a "rip off" :rolleyes:

Virgin Media were up-front and honest and made a statement straight away on how they will be dealing with the new VAT rate cut.

As you say Ben, this was dropped on businesses and VM are trying to do their best and be fair with customers!

Everyone lighten up! jeez! :D

:xmas:

[skin_2]

I work in finance in a large organisation and we were able to alter our VAT rate for both accounts payable and accounts receivable by the required date.
Business invoices have to show the net amount and also the amount of VAT.
When paying invoices it's all done on the net amount and the accounting software adds VAT.

I'm sure that Virgin Media is charging its business customers the correct VAT rate and they will certainly be paying their suppliers at 15% VAT also.


As you say Ben, this was dropped on businesses and VM are trying to do their best and be fair with customers!


Well, let's see what happens when the rate of VAT is increased again then.

Incidentally, I've recently had a bill from BT that shows the correct rate of VAT. I'm not a customer of Sky.

[BenMcr]

I work in finance in a large organisation and we were able to alter our VAT rate for both accounts payable and accounts receivable by the required date.
Business invoices have to show the net amount and also the amount of VAT.
When paying invoices it's all done on the net amount and the accounting software adds VAT.
Well good for your company. But just because your company could, doesn't meant every company can

I'm sure that Virgin Media is charging its business customers the correct VAT rate and they will certainly be paying their suppliers at 15% VAT also.
So what if they have. That is a completely seperate part of the business with a seperate charging structure.

Well, let's see what happens when the rate of VAT is increased again then.
See you in a year then, but remember all companies will have had 13 months to prepare for the increase, rather than a week they got for the decrease

Incidentally, I've recently had a bill from BT that shows the correct rate of VAT. I'm not a customer of Sky.
What about all those BT customers who got billed in November then? They have just had a 3 month bill with VAT @ 17.5 and aren't going to get it back for 3 months!. Thats much more interest than 1 month! I hope OFCOM investigate them 3 times as much!

By the way, what did OFCOM say when you reported Virgin Media to them?

[cook1984]

I think VM would have to reduce the overall price rather than upping the ex vat price as this reduction is only for a couple of years then VAT will increase to 18% so they will end up losing a lot of money

Please stop reading the Daily Mail. VAT will go back to 17.5% after one year. It has already been confirmed.

The idea is to ease the tax burden for the next year. Well done VM for screwing everyone.

[BenMcr]

Well done VM for screwing everyone.
Please tell me how Virgin done that? They are passing the VAT cut onto customers as quick as they are able.

Sky, on the other hand, have refused to cut the cost of their Broadband and Talk packages by 2.5%, so are going to be pocketing the VAT saving

[AndyCambs]

At the end of the day - the 2.5% reduction in sales tax isn't exactly going to revitalise the High Street sales - there are already reductions of upto 50% in sales, so an extra 2.5% is peanuts.
Whilst cook1984 points out it will be reverting back to 17.5% in a year - it doesn't mean that the govt won't be taking its pound of flesh from somewhere. Somewhere, sometime, we are going to have to pay for this.
The only benefits really are to companies who receive a rebate back from HMRC for their VAT - and not the individual members of the public.
The only thing this VAT cut has managed to do is cause additional work and cost for retailers and other companies in having to adjust their charging methods to cope with it. As BenMcr says - no notice given, and bascially an ill-thought out policy. It's a bit like trying to put out Buncefield fire with a garden hose really.

[Chrysalis]

the fact people seeing cuompanies that dont pass on a measly 2.5% cut as screwing them just shows high tight and greedy people are today, everyone is out for themselves.

[SMHarman]

Couldn't they just take 2.5% off the total bill?
I can't see them changing the whole billing system as the VAT will be going back up in January 2010.But it is not 2.5% of the bill it is 2.5/117.5 of the bill. Also they need to pass on the VAT element to HMRC and that has to tie to the VAT computation on their computers systems.
Every billing system in the world is designed to deal with sales tax and designed to deal with mid period changes in rates (after all you can change package you subscribe to mid month).
The confusion is more likely to be that usually one product has one rate and another another rate.
For a supplier of widgits you can change your product master database on the VAT change date, or more likely change the VAT rate field for standard rate and when a new widgit is sold it will be sold with 15% vat.
For a continuous supply like VM you might concivebly need new products 30quid telly pre increase and post increase and write some kind of process to migrage people from one package to the otehr over night, this could have repercussions such as resetting contract end dates so would not be an easy solution to implement.
Or, most likely the billing system can do this as it is conceivable that VAT would go up in the future and a cut should work the same but they just need to test it.
It has to be easier than the VAT change put through in NYC on clothing such that a clothing bill totalling under $100 has 0 sales tax but above that has the standard 7% sales tax. At least they had time to write that change.

[skin_2]

What about all those BT customers who got billed in November then? They have just had a 3 month bill with VAT @ 17.5 and aren't going to get it back for 3 months!. Thats much more interest than 1 month! I hope OFCOM investigate them 3 times as much!
By the way, what did OFCOM say when you reported Virgin Media to them?

I'm told by our VAT experts that the VAT reduction was implemented on invoices dated on or after 1 December, so November bills would have VAT at 17.5%. BT (and others) may be able to argue that even if part of the bill (such as line rental) relates to a period after 1 December then the VAT rate should still be 17.5%. After 1 December companies must charge VAT at 15%. There's nothing to stop them putting up the net price of course so that the gross remains the same, but this is rather against the spirit of the legislation to make prices cheaper if only by a small amount. This is easier to see with bills from companies such as BT where the bill shows a net amount and the amount of VAT. My VM bill just says 'includes VAT the appropriate rate(s)'. It's this lack of transparency that fuels suspicion.

The actual amount of money for individual customers is trivial and it's not as though anyone is paying more. What concerns me is the total price charged remains the same, therefore the net goes up. Now, after the 13 months of the lower rate, will some companies be charging the same increased net and then applying the new rate of VAT to that, while blaming the increase on increased VAT. It's a tempting way to increase the price by stealth - and would also benefit the government as they would get more VAT.

You may care to ask the finance people at VM what accounting package they use, but I can't imagine one that wouldn't allow for varying rates of VAT.
I should think the problem would be with changing everyone's bills in time, but I should have thought they could sort that in a couple of months or so.

OFCOM point out that questions of VAT are a matter for HM Revenue and Customs rather than for them.

[BenMcr]

My VM bill just says 'includes VAT the appropriate rate(s)'. It's this lack of transparency that fuels suspicion.
And Virgin said the day the VAT cut was announced it would pass on the saving to their customers (including a backdate credit). Pretty transparent to me.

What concerns me is the total price charged remains the same, therefore the net goes up.Which company is doing that?

I should think the problem would be with changing everyone's bills in time, but I should have thought they could sort that in a couple of months or so.It will all be changed for January, and everyone will have a credit for December on the January bill as well

The problem Virgin have, which most other companies don't, are the different billing period across the business (due to historical billing system)

For instance, in some areas a bill dated the 15th of November may cover the 15th November - 14th December.

In other areas a bill dated the 15th of November may cover 5 December - 4th January 2009

and other variations.

Because of this, working out the best way to do a VAT cut across the entire system for alll customers correctly in one go is not simple,

[Richardr]

Sky, on the other hand, have refused to cut the cost of their Broadband and Talk packages by 2.5%, so are going to be pocketing the VAT savingWhy bring irrelevant attacks on Sky into it? The two services you mention are not subject to the standard rate of VAT in the UK, so are unaffected by the change in rate (they are billed via a Luxembourg company).

Re your earlier BT attack - isn't the tax point the date of the invoice - so a November invoice at the old rate will not lead to any refund?

[BenMcr]

Why bring irrelevant attacks on Sky into it?
Why attack Virgin in the first place for something they aren't going to do? This whole thread is basically people posting 'Virgin aren't going to be passing the VAT cut on' or 'Virgin are hanging on to the interest because they are evil'

The two services you mention are not subject to the standard rate of VAT in the UK, so are unaffected by the change in rate (they are billed via a Luxembourg company).
Ok I didn't see that bit. But elsewhere (http://mysky.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyhelpcentre/gettingstarted?title=HC+-+Latest+News+-+Latest+News+article&articleId=2428910) they have said 'Other products and services have already been discounted to below cost price and therefore will not be reduced further'

Re your earlier BT attack - isn't the tax point the date of the invoice - so a November invoice at the old rate will not lead to any refund?
Yet both Virgin and Sky will be backdating to the 1st of December

---------- Post added at 10:45 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Personally I think every company should pass the VAT saving on for all products that attract the full 17.5% rate, however how that is achieved is up to them.