View Full Version : Neighbours VM connection
General Angel
15-10-2008, 23:34
Forget it lol, i will find out next week
Admin edit (Chris) : Oh, no you don't.
Original post:
I realise this is illegal and slightly immoral but i quickly connected to my neighbours unsecure wireless connection because i knew they had VM and i wanted to see if they had good speeds.
The speedtest from speedtest.net (unreliable at times) showed that they had 1500kbps download and 488kbps upload, the upload to me suggests that they are on the 10 meg package but was wondering if the 1.5 meg was a result of a congested UBR or because the unsecure router was at 2 bars signal and was set to 802.11b mode rather then G.
Congested UBR or was it the wireless signal causing bad results?
Have you changed the admin password yet? :D
General Angel
15-10-2008, 23:46
Have you changed the admin password yet? :D
Im not that mean ;)
I realise this is illegal and slightly immoral but i quickly connected to my neighbours unsecure wireless connection because i knew they had VM and i wanted to see if they had good speeds.
The speedtest from speedtest.net (unreliable at times) showed that they had 1500kbps download and 488kbps upload, the upload to me suggests that they are on the 10 meg package but was wondering if the 1.5 meg was a result of a congested UBR or because the unsecure router was at 2 bars signal and was set to 802.11b mode rather then G.
what do you think congested UBR or was it the wireless signal causing bad results?
Seeing as you have no idea what your neighbours were doing with their connection at the time you hacked it, your speedtest results really don't prove anything.
Seeing as you have no idea what your neighbours were doing with their connection at the time you hacked it, your speedtest results really don't prove anything.
Technically he didn't hack it. it was already open.
Technically he didn't hack it. it was already open.
Theft of an unlocked vehicle is still theft. ;)
Theft of an unlocked vehicle is still theft. ;)
Maybe, but you didn't have to break the locks :D
It's still an offence under the communications act 2003
but we were talking about if it was hacked into or not :)
Did the neighbour remove the security, or didn't it have any in the first place?
General Angel
16-10-2008, 20:48
but we were talking about if it was hacked into or not :)
Did the neighbour remove the security, or didn't it have any in the first place?
It had no security, i told him yesterday (before i went on it) that it was unsecure and that he should hide the SSID, its not on my wireless list now so i think he sorted it
It had no security, i told him yesterday (before i went on it) that it was unsecure and that he should hide the SSID, its not on my wireless list now so i think he sorted it
Some peoples set up can automatically connect to open WiFi that are in range anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of people that connect to open ones without realising it, or even knowing it's illegal.
Virgin should be educating their customers on securing WiFi more. might help with over subscribed UBRs a bit :D
mrmistoffelees
16-10-2008, 20:54
Some peoples set up can automatically connect to open WiFi that are in range anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of people that connect to open ones without realising it, or even knowing it's illegal.
Virgin should be educating their customers on securing WiFi more. might help with over subscribed UBRs a bit :D
Does a car dealer tell you how to avoid an accident whilst driving once you have purchased a car ?
General Angel
16-10-2008, 20:54
Some peoples set up can automatically connect to open WiFi that are in range anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of people that connect to open ones without realising it, or even knowing it's illegal.
Virgin should be educating their customers on securing WiFi more. might help with over subscribed UBRs a bit :D
There is an option i think that connects you to the next prefferable connection, i made sure this morning that it was unticked so it wont happen again
Does a car dealer tell you how to avoid an accident whilst driving once you have purchased a car ?
He probably would have to if he owned all the roads you drove the car you purchased off him on.
---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:58 ----------
There is an option i think that connects you to the next prefferable connection, i made sure this morning that it was unticked so it wont happen again
Good lad :)
educate the clueless :)
mrmistoffelees
16-10-2008, 21:01
He probably would have to if he owned all the roads you drove the car you purchased off him on.
But he doesnt does he ? Just as VM only own a sliproad onto the motorway
I agree with you that there is a need for education with regards to things such as WiFi security BUT It's a personal responsibility not one for Virgin Media to be dealing with.
But he doesnt does he ? Just as VM only own a sliproad onto the motorway
They do? I'm trying to think of a slow motorway :)
I agree with you that there is a need for education with regards to things such as WiFi security BUT It's a personal responsibility not one for Virgin Media to be dealing with.
But was the router issued with security installed, or was it wide open anyway? I'm not blaming anyone really, I just think it's their network and they could try and protect it better.
the way you say BUT It's a personal responsibility not one for Virgin Media to be dealing with sounds wrong. don't you think?
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 22:20
They do? I'm trying to think of a slow motorway :)
But was the router issued with security installed, or was it wide open anyway? I'm not blaming anyone really, I just think it's their network and they could try and protect it better.
the way you say sounds wrong. don't you think?
If its your router then it is up to you to secure it with a password not the supplier.
If its your router then it is up to you to secure it with a password not the supplier.
Supplier being say Motorola or the ISP?
Wrong kind of attitude if the ISP's were saying that.
Wicked_and_Crazy
16-10-2008, 22:32
Does a car dealer tell you how to avoid an accident whilst driving once you have purchased a car ?
Are you allowed to drive without instruction? its not a fair comparison
xspeedyx
16-10-2008, 22:33
Its true customers need to take it on themselves, ISP supplies equipment and also provide support if a customer cant be bothered to ring TSC then tahts there fault not vm the support is there people just choose to be lazy and not use it
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 22:34
Supplier being say Motorola or the ISP?
Wrong kind of attitude if the ISP's were saying that.
You buy a router then when you get it home and you run the set up it asks you to put in a password, you do not get a guy from PC World or Netgear or any other supplier to come to your house and say hello sir can I put a password in for you.
All routers leave the factory with a generic router name and password, usually admin and password and if you do not change it then thats up to you.
Even if we help set up a router over the phone it is up to the customer to choose the name of their network and the password as it is their private network.
You buy a router then when you get it home and you run the set up it asks you to put in a password, you do not get a guy from PC World or Netgear or any other supplier to come to your house and say hello sir can I put a password in for you.
Now come on. how have we managed to climb this far up the exaggeration tree? :D
All routers leave the factory with a generic router name and password, usually admin and password and if you do not change it then thats up to you.
Even if we help set up a router over the phone it is up to the customer to choose the name of their network and the password as it is their private network.
Which in turn is connected to their network.
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 23:05
Now come on. how have we managed to climb this far up the exaggeration tree? :D
Which in turn is connected to their network.
Well who is responsible for securing a wireless network, remembering that the ISP's responsibility ends at the modem.;)
General Angel
16-10-2008, 23:09
Well who is responsible for securing a wireless network, remembering that the ISP's responsibility ends at the modem.;)
When i told my neighour that his router was broadcasting as an unsecure network he had no idea, he didnt even know what an SSID was
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 23:14
When i told my neighour that his router was broadcasting as an unsecure network he had no idea, he didnt even know what an SSID was
Every set up disk takes you to the name your network and password screen, some people just click next because they are in a hurry to go wireless and are unaware of how vulnerable that leaves their broadband connection, but securing their network is still down to them no one else.
General Angel
16-10-2008, 23:19
Every set up disk takes you to the name your network and password screen, some people just click next because they are in a hurry to go wireless and are unaware of how vulnerable that leaves their broadband connection, but securing their network is still down to them no one else.
Im aware of that, i wasnt stating otherwise i just didnt have a reasonable quote to post from so i used yours.
Well who is responsible for securing a wireless network, remembering that the ISP's responsibility ends at the modem.;)
What effects are there of an open WiFi connection?
and if they can be a substantial effect, is that to the customer or the network?
if 100% of all users removed the security and made it an open network, would the ISP allow it?
We're focusing too much on responsibility, when it originally started as being educated :)
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 23:23
Im aware of that, i wasnt stating otherwise i just didnt have a reasonable quote to post from so i used yours.
Glad to see that you helped out your neighbour by letting him know about being unsecured, because some people would have just taken advantage and used their network.
General Angel
16-10-2008, 23:29
What effects are there of an open WiFi connection?
and if they can be a substantial effect, is that to the customer or the network?
if 100% of all users removed the security and made it an open network, would the ISP allow it?
We're focusing too much on responsibility, when it originally started as being educated :)
You are making a lot of sense, its really not that hard to secure a wireless connection if you use the disk or are tech savvy, so perhaps its the ignorance of the customers thats to blame
---------- Post added at 23:29 ---------- Previous post was at 23:24 ----------
Glad to see that you helped out your neighbour by letting him know about being unsecured, because some people would have just taken advantage and used their network.
I used it once last night after telling him it wasnt secure, he gave me permission to run a speedtest so im not sure if thats illegal or not ( i thought it was)
But looking today his router isnt broadcasting so it must be sorted
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 23:36
You are making a lot of sense, its really not that hard to secure a wireless connection if you use the disk or are tech savvy, so perhaps its the ignorance of the customers thats to blame
---------- Post added at 23:29 ---------- Previous post was at 23:24 ----------
I used it once last night after telling him it wasnt secure, he gave me permission to run a speedtest so im not sure if thats illegal or not ( i thought it was)
But looking today his router isnt broadcasting so it must be sorted
If its not broadcasting then it is probably switched off as it would still show as a secured network otherwise, he may need some help going secure.
You had his permission to download a speed test so that was not illegal.
General Angel
16-10-2008, 23:38
If its not broadcasting then it is probably switched off as it would still show as a secured network otherwise, he may need some help going secure.
i wrote down how to secure his connection along with hiding the SSID, so either the SSID is hidden and it is secured or its how you said and he still needs help, i will check tommorrow to see if its all ok
Im glad that having permission isnt illegal and immoral because i was starting to think it was phew!
You are making a lot of sense, its really not that hard to secure a wireless connection if you use the disk or are tech savvy, so perhaps its the ignorance of the customers thats to blame
Some people are more interested in changing the network name to something silly like Aston Villa, or their own name so they can remind themselves of who they are at a later date :)
General Angel
16-10-2008, 23:42
Some people are more interested in changing the network name to something silly like Aston Villa, or their own name so they can remind themselves of who they are at a later date :)
lol, not only would the network be unsecured but it would also have a rubbish name :)
mrmistoffelees
17-10-2008, 05:37
Are you allowed to drive without instruction? its not a fair comparison
And who gives you the instruction ? Certainly not the person you are buying the car from.
it's completely fair !
mrmistoffelees
17-10-2008, 07:46
Are you allowed to drive without instruction? its not a fair comparison
And who gives you the instruction ? Certainly not the person you are buying the car from.
To put it another way if you bought a car from a vauxhall dealer you wouldnt expect a volkswagon dealer to fix it for you would you ? Just because they happen to sell things with four wheels and and engine etc.
Or a further way of looking at it.
I know very little about car mechanics however if my car went wrong I might do one of two things
a) Read up on the problem and if I thought I could solve it do it myself
b) Pay someone who knows what they are doing to make sure the car is roadworthy]
VM's responsibility is their network from their gateway to every customers modem. What the customer attaches to it or does with it is their issue (providing of course it's legal)
Pretty fair comparison I think ;)
Virgin should be educating their customers on securing WiFi more
turned into
if you bought a car from a vauxhall dealer you wouldnt expect a volkswagon dealer to fix it for you would you ? Just because they happen to sell things with four wheels and and engine etc.
VM's responsibility is their network from their gateway to every customers modem. What the customer attaches to it or does with it is their issue
I just thought that it would help if Virgin took more interest in how their customers secured their WiFi so as not to let non customers have a detrimental effect on the virgin network. but from the car comparisns they shouldn't have to. :rolleyes: :)
Some peoples set up can automatically connect to open WiFi that are in range anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of people that connect to open ones without realising it, or even knowing it's illegal...
Yep. This happened to my sister earlier this year. She got her first ever computer (laptop) for Christmas. To get her going on the internet I set up a dial-up connection for her round my house.
The first time she used it at her own house she plugged the modem into the phone line & started I.E. While she was using it, she phoned me on her mobile to tell me how quickly it connected & how fast eveything was loading (windows updates, AVG updates etc.). Out of curiousity, I told her to look at her network connections. Sure enough she had connected to a wireless network.
She insisted that nothing appeared on screen to indicate that she was about to use a wireless connection, or to give her the choice as to what connection to use. It was all automatic.
Luckily the SSID was actually the Christian names of her elderly neighbours who live opposite her. I told her to let them know, as anyone within range could use it. Her neighbours didn't have a clue about how to secure their connection. They said it was set up by their nephew for them. They did say that they didn't mind her using it.
It is still unsecured today!
Mine is unsecured, but then for anyone else to be close enough to use it they'd have to be sitting in the lane outside our front window, in a car with a laptop ... :D
mrmistoffelees
17-10-2008, 12:27
turned into
I just thought that it would help if Virgin took more interest in how their customers secured their WiFi so as not to let non customers have a detrimental effect on the virgin network. but from the car comparisns they shouldn't have to. :rolleyes: :)
You know precisely the point im making so how about you either do one of the following
a) Argue your case
b) Accept the fact you're wrong.
No need for the :rolleyes: at all
You know precisely the point im making so how about you either do one of the following
a) Argue your case
I have been arguing my case, people just come back with some story about cars and garages.
b) Accept the fact you're wrong.
I accept the fact that I am wrong that I thought it would be a good idea that Virgin encouraged their customers to keep their routers secure, it wouldn't help take the strain off the network resulting in better speeds for all.
No need for the :rolleyes: at all
How about these ones?
:Yikes:
---------- Post added at 13:11 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------
The first time she used it at her own house she plugged the modem into the phone line & started I.E. While she was using it, she phoned me on her mobile to tell me how quickly it connected & how fast eveything was loading (windows updates, AVG updates etc.). Out of curiousity, I told her to look at her network connections. Sure enough she had connected to a wireless network.
That's why I don't think it's as illegal as we might think it is. it might be illegal if you were to use brute force to obtain the connection, but when it's wide open and your PC connects to it automatically. I can't see a prosecution there.
---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:11 ----------
Mine is unsecured, but then for anyone else to be close enough to use it they'd have to be sitting in the lane outside our front window, in a car with a laptop ... :D
Is that a Police safe house? how come you're allowed an internet connection then? :D
joglynne
17-10-2008, 13:21
Probably a very silly question. I can understand in Chris's case where he is isolated enough for it not to matter but why would anyone actually want an unsecured connection in a domestic situation?
Probably a very silly question. I can understand in Chris's case where he is isolated enough for it not to matter but why would anyone actually want an unsecured connection in a domestic situation?
Could be anything as simple as no problems with it not connecting properly with security. or having numerous WiFi gadgets like myself, where you just let them connect without having to set them all up.
joglynne
17-10-2008, 13:45
Could be anything as simple as no problems with it not connecting properly with security. or having numerous WiFi gadgets like myself, where you just let them connect without having to set them all up.
I was just wondering why routers weren't sold with the security built in so that connections would be secure by default with an option to disable or tweak if necessary.
I was just wondering why routers weren't sold with the security built in so that connections would be secure by default with an option to disable or tweak if necessary.
Some older computers can't handle the current recommended WPA security and so have to use WEP, which is suitable for keeping out casual bandwidth thieves but not terribly difficult to get past for anyone who knows what they're doing.
Other people may deliberately wish to make their internet freely available - e.g. a coffee shop that wants to encourage customers to linger, and buy more coffee.
Seeing as routers are sold and installed in all sorts of different environments with different security needs, it would always inconvenience a group of customers for any kind of security to be on by default. And even if it didn't inconvenience anyone, and security was on by default, it would have to be supplied with a default user name and password - which puts you right back to square one.
Despite our isolated location, I did have security in place initially, but we had several friends visiting over a period of months, some of whom brought laptops with them, and we found we had persistent problems getting them connected to the Belkin router with non-Belkin wireless cards in their computers. So we switched it off at that point and haven't bothered to change it since. It's very convenient, anyone who comes and needs to get any work done (or babysitters who turn up with their laptop and wish to spend the evening browsing Cliff Richard fan forums, step forwards mother-in-law), can do so without any hassle at all.
General Angel
17-10-2008, 15:36
Some older computers can't handle the current recommended WPA security and so have to use WEP, which is suitable for keeping out casual bandwidth thieves but not terribly difficult to get past for anyone who knows what they're doing.
Other people may deliberately wish to make their internet freely available - e.g. a coffee shop that wants to encourage customers to linger, and buy more coffee.
Seeing as routers are sold and installed in all sorts of different environments with different security needs, it would always inconvenience a group of customers for any kind of security to be on by default. And even if it didn't inconvenience anyone, and security was on by default, it would have to be supplied with a default user name and password - which puts you right back to square one.
Despite our isolated location, I did have security in place initially, but we had several friends visiting over a period of months, some of whom brought laptops with them, and we found we had persistent problems getting them connected to the Belkin router with non-Belkin wireless cards in their computers. So we switched it off at that point and haven't bothered to change it since. It's very convenient, anyone who comes and needs to get any work done (or babysitters who turn up with their laptop and wish to spend the evening browsing Cliff Richard fan forums, step forwards mother-in-law), can do so without any hassle at all.
Is it possible to have lower throughput with a secured connection? I heard somewhere that it did, but its not worth the risk IMO
Yes, secured connections can reduce your data throughput. Not so as you would notice for a lot of applications. I don't know the exact figures. Gamerz tend to advise a wired connection for online gaming, but I don't know whether this is a criticism of wireless per se or if it's based on the assumption that your wireless network is encrypted.
General Angel
17-10-2008, 16:05
Yes, secured connections can reduce your data throughput. Not so as you would notice for a lot of applications. I don't know the exact figures. Gamerz tend to advise a wired connection for online gaming, but I don't know whether this is a criticism of wireless per se or if it's based on the assumption that your wireless network is encrypted.
I have to play on wired because if i use wireless as soon as the microwave is being used BAM! my connection dies.
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