View Full Version : It's Official...VM are the fastest!
Pogo stick
06-10-2008, 20:53
Rather than tag this to the end of one of the "VM are sooo slow" threads, I thought this was significant enough to deserve its own thread.
According to Broadband.co.uk, VM have now overtaken Be and O2 as being consistently the fastest Broadband provider across all the speedtests performed by them, across every period of day or night.
link:
http://www.sourcewire.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=42178
With the 4-10Mb upgrade now completed, 50Mb about to start rolling out, along with the 2-4Mb upgrade commencing in 2009 it looks like clear blue water may be opening up in the battle for service differentiation.
Now they just need to get analogue TV turned off so they can roll out channel bonding to increase upload speeds and there won't be anybody who can catch them.
About time too!
Coggy trots off for some popcorn...back soon.;)
Yea, they are the fastest, for around 20 Minutes.
xspeedyx
06-10-2008, 20:57
Could too see but a few points, since when is there a upgrade from 2-4mb plus channel bonding on upstream may not be true as its has been said the modem for 50Mb dont support channel bonding on the upstream and cant be upgraded via firmware so you need to do some research before you post
Rather than tag this to the end of one of the "VM are sooo slow" threads, I thought this was significant enough to deserve its own thread.
According to Broadband.co.uk, VM have now overtaken Be and O2 as being consistently the fastest Broadband provider across all the speedtests performed by them, across every period of day or night.
link:
http://www.sourcewire.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=42178
With the 4-10Mb upgrade now completed, 50Mb about to start rolling out, along with the 2-4Mb upgrade commencing in 2009 it looks like clear blue water may be opening up in the battle for service differentiation.
Now they just need to get analogue TV turned off so they can roll out channel bonding to increase upload speeds and there won't be anybody who can catch them.
About time too!
I'd take that with a pinch of salt.. I am on Be, and the speed test on the site mentioned in that article measured my speed at 8Mbps. I average between 14 and 18 on other sites, and can download from Giganews at 18 to 20 Mbps..
Well of course they will be the fastest once fully developed,its been designed specifically for faster speeds. Also non-cable internet from virgin/ntl-telewest business on some BTexchanges runs down a LLU
network,most of them being shared with Cable and Wireless's LLU network which supplies pipex-Bulldog customers offering good speeds.
Pogo stick
06-10-2008, 21:28
Didn't take long for the doomsayers did it...?
Could too see but a few points, since when is there a upgrade from 2-4mb plus channel bonding on upstream may not be true as its has been said the modem for 50Mb dont support channel bonding on the upstream and cant be upgraded via firmware so you need to do some research before you post
Don't need to do much research, Darthlinux, as I work for VM and know these to be facts. How about we revisit this conversation in Q3/Q4 of 2009?
Stuart, there are bound to be individual differences, as there will be on every ISPs network, but the point is, when compared across thousands of speed tests a day (and there are likely to be many more tests by VM customers than most others), VMs speed is found to be fastest on average.
Don't know about you but if I were looking for a fast Broadband provider I wouldn't deliberately exclude the provider shown to be fastest on average.
Has the a modem been officially picked? Or are Virgin Media still mulling about which one to get?
Stuart, there are bound to be individual differences, as there will be on every ISPs network, but the point is, when compared across thousands of speed tests a day (and there are likely to be many more tests by VM customers than most others), VMs speed is found to be fastest on average.
Don't know about you but if I were looking for a fast Broadband provider I wouldn't deliberately exclude the provider shown to be fastest on average.
Actually, I was questioning the accuracy of the speed tester, based upon the fact that it under reported my speed by well over half. And I am not basing that on the advertised speed. I am basing that on the speed I actually get.
Web based speedtesters are notoriously inaccurate (look at the variety of results from Speedtest.net for proof) and can be affected by many factors.
Those results are meaningless because they are not broken down into tier levels. The average speed depends on what percentage of subscribers are on the 2,10 or 20Mbps tiers. If that speed test shows 10Mbps download, then that is excellent for a 10Mbps tier, but pretty miserable for a 20Mbps tier.
A more meaninful test would be to show what pecentage of the advertised speed you are achieving.
Stuart, there are bound to be individual differences, as there will be on every ISPs network, but the point is, when compared across thousands of speed tests a day (and there are likely to be many more tests by VM customers than most others), VMs speed is found to be fastest on average.
The result is meaningless. As noted above, we don't know how many are on which tariff. Virgin do have more high bandwidth subscribers than any other ISP (BT included, as BT don't go higher than 8 meg), Virgin are also the only ISP who are able (in theory) to offer speeds higher than 8 meg to around half the country.
The amount of 20 meg subscribers who are getting even half the speed they pay for will skew the results in Virgin's favour. A much fairer test would include average speeds for each tier, so we can judge for ourselves just how how likely we are to get the service we would pay an ISP for.
I am not setting out to criticise Virgin. Far from it. I have a V+ and apart from the excessive reboots needed, and a few niggles, I am perfectly happy with it. I was also a broadband customer for years, and was generally happy with that service.
Certainly not fastest here.
20 meg connection that's normally less than 2 meg and is thrashed daily by Ukonlines 8 meg connection.
Ignitionnet
07-10-2008, 21:27
One website, that I might add I've never heard of much less used having used broadband since 2000, does not anything 'official' make.
Their speedtest sucks by the way.
broadband.co.uk
Download speed : 6.53Mbps
Upload speed : 0.68Mbps
http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/
Download Speed: 13756 kbps (1719.5 KB/sec ) Upload Speed: 732 kbps (91.5 KB/sec )
Working for VM means nothing, care to give your job title Pogo, so that we can at least assess if you're likely to be able to confirm anything you say with any sort of clarity?
Unless you're pretty senior or working actively on the projects in question there's no way you'll know what's going on with them.
Incidentally I'm not interested in revisiting discussions on bonded upstreams on the 50Mbit product in Q3/4 2009, that it's being released with 1.5Mbit is enough of a slap to be honest. That's way below what's achievable without bonded upstreams, however as your collegue Broadbandbug mentioned the VM cable network can't handle offering higher speeds without bonding as it's not in good enough condition.
Maybe the people holding the purse strings also believed the hype about fibre optic broadband and forgot the copper needed upgrading.
EDIT...
Now they just need to get analogue TV turned off so they can roll out channel bonding to increase upload speeds and there won't be anybody who can catch them.
Out of interest what does switching off analogue TV, which is, obviously downstream, have to do with opening up bandwidth upstream, beyond elimination of CPD and replacement with intermodulatory products? CPD shouldn't really be a major issue on a properly maintained network anyway? Switching off analogue won't increase availability of upstream bandwidth, those areas with poor networks still stuck at 30MHz subsplits will remain so, it will possibly allow higher order modulation which is not relevant to bonding.
whydoIneedatech
07-10-2008, 21:41
Didn't take long for the doomsayers did it...?
Don't need to do much research, Darthlinux, as I work for VM and know these to be facts. How about we revisit this conversation in Q3/Q4 of 2009?
Stuart, there are bound to be individual differences, as there will be on every ISPs network, but the point is, when compared across thousands of speed tests a day (and there are likely to be many more tests by VM customers than most others), VMs speed is found to be fastest on average.
Don't know about you but if I were looking for a fast Broadband provider I wouldn't deliberately exclude the provider shown to be fastest on average.
You work for Virgin in what capacity Tech Support , Customer Services or whatever, you can give us an idea of why you think you have knowledge of these things you posted.
Plus 10mb on a Staff Package is rather unusual or are you from an associated company.;)
In response to the doomsayers.
Like I said Cable Broadband is still technically under construction and i'm sorry but you'll just have to wait a little longer, try asking for 20MB speed from BT,Tiscali,Sky or Orange, you won't get any faster 3MB!!!
However, what Virgin Media need to focus on is City of Westminster in London, most of this area is business orientated and businesses need fast internet! NTL Telewest Business could offer superfast broadband, but is being neglected, I'm aware that offering Digital TV is a problem in this area, but Cable Broadband isn't and the towns and streets which would benefit would be:
Mayfair
Paddington
Marylebolne
Lisson Grove
Oxford Street
Charing Cross
Victoria (Westminster part)
Trafalgar Square
Strand
Soho
Piccadilly
Harley Street
Cleveland Street(Camden side is covered by ex-Telewest)
Regent Street
Wardour Street
Wimpole Street
Marble Arch
New/Bond Street
Covent Garden
Baker Street
St Johns Wood
Edgware Road
Sussex Gardens
Queensway
Maida Vale
Warwick Avenue
Queens Park
I'm also aware that Dolphin Square is completely upgraded and all 3 services are available there.
In response to the doomsayers.
Like I said Cable Broadband is still technically under construction and i'm sorry but you'll just have to wait a little longer, try asking for 20MB speed from BT,Tiscali,Sky or Orange, you won't get any faster 3MB!!!
That is rubbish.
I have a really REALLY poor BT line which has characteristics of a 6km line (is in fact just over 3km but an inconvenient West Coast Mainline causes no end of problems) and can get a minimum on 4.2Mb sync speed.
My wonderful fibre optic 10Mb broadband from VM however is currently peaking at 3Mb due to the oversubscription of my UBR which was reported in September 2007 and STILL hasn't been upgraded..
What was that you were saying about VM leading the way....?
Bri
smee init
09-10-2008, 20:19
Hi guys, I have to stick up for VM because I have a 20Mb line and my connection speed has never gone below 18Mb and upload is always dead on 768Kb all the time and when ever I am on xbox playing COD4 I am always made the host even when more of players are American and to be honest I have only ever had a problem with VM services when I have a power cut so for this I take my hat off to them.
xspeedyx
09-10-2008, 20:31
I dont doubt people have a great service from Virgin Media I just want my fast cable connection back
smee init
09-10-2008, 20:33
I dont doubt people have a great service from Virgin Media I just want my fast cable connection back
Then you will have to ask them nicely lol
xspeedyx
09-10-2008, 23:57
I have done for over a year but got some peeps working on the case for me
Ignitionnet
10-10-2008, 11:20
In response to the doomsayers.
Like I said Cable Broadband is still technically under construction and i'm sorry but you'll just have to wait a little longer, try asking for 20MB speed from BT,Tiscali,Sky or Orange, you won't get any faster 3MB!!!
Pants must have been imagining things when getting 20 / 2.5Mbit over DSL.
I'm also aware that Dolphin Square is completely upgraded and all 3 services are available there.
Downgraded you mean surely, they had 100Mbit point to point fibre to the home there before it was replaced with standard cable.
I'm interested in your assertion that supplying broadband is doable while digital TV is not in some areas also, could you explain the rationale behind this?
weesteev
10-10-2008, 16:06
After reading these posts i thought I would throw in my own 2p ;)
The upstream launch with Broadband Size XXL of only 1.5Mb is nothing to do with core capactiy but more to do with the "pre cert" headend gear. The initial trial of upstream channel binding was done with Arris CMTS equipment which is silver cdertified DOCSIS 3 and allows upstream channel bonding. I believe 4.5Mbps upload was tested at this phase by bonding three channels together.
The equipment that has passed standard is the Cisco 10k series uBR chassis, both Docsis and Eurodocsis standards are being trialled currently and wil no doubt be franchise specific upon completion.
The modem that is being supplied will be the rather sexy lookig Ambit VMNG 300 Docsis 3 modem. It is very different to current modems and is a matte polished finish to bring it inline with more modern equipment (think playstation 3).
And as for the initial post comments, the news that Virgin is the fastest doesnt come as a surprise but please bear the following factors in mind...
Virgins total speed is calculated on all three broadband tiers (2mb, 10mb and 20mb). Considering that 2.4million of its customers use 2Mb, thats quite an impressive result to have!
Faster speeds have inherent problems for all networks, how many non PC enthusiasts have high speed broadband from "legacy" cable days and may not have the PC (or modem) to support such a fast speed.
The speed tests dont take how the testers connect to the internet, the avergae wireless user will be "G" based, severley restricting most speed test results.
So overall, speed test sites are rubbish! They will never give you an varying result of your speed! If you want to judge your speed then use a newsgroup server and download large files to judge your true speed.
Discuss ?
...Virgins total speed is calculated on all three broadband tiers (2mb, 10mb and 20mb). Considering that 2.4million of its customers use 2Mb, thats quite an impressive result to have!...
2.4 million out of a total of ???
Unless we know the total number of subscribers, it's a bit hard to judge.
Also, I would guess that the subscribers on the higher tiers are more likely to use speed tests to see if they are getting their mony's worth. Subscibers on the 2Mbps tier are probably not as interested in downloading large amounts as those on the 10 or 20Mbps tiers, so wouldn't be interested in checking their speeds.
Ignitionnet
10-10-2008, 17:40
The upstream launch with Broadband Size XXL of only 1.5Mb is nothing to do with core capactiy but more to do with the "pre cert" headend gear. The initial trial of upstream channel binding was done with Arris CMTS equipment which is silver cdertified DOCSIS 3 and allows upstream channel bonding. I believe 4.5Mbps upload was tested at this phase by bonding three channels together.
As I remember 5 or 6Mbit was tested. It's also no excuse, having seen 5 and 8Mbit offered on unbonded upstreams.
In any case as was mentioned here apparently VM are only using a single upstream for the 10k initially due to being somewhat spectrally challenged in areas so bonding is a non-issue.
The equipment that has passed standard is the Cisco 10k series uBR chassis, both Docsis and Eurodocsis standards are being trialled currently and wil no doubt be franchise specific upon completion.
It'll all be EuroDOCSIS. Virtually all modems on 20Mbit will be dual-mode so would be a waste of bandwidth to run with DOCSIS. Modems that aren't EuroDOCSIS just won't end up on the 10k.
The modem that is being supplied will be the rather sexy lookig Ambit VMNG 300 Docsis 3 modem. It is very different to current modems and is a matte polished finish to bring it inline with more modern equipment (think playstation 3).
So long as it works that's all good, though not sure about calling it the 'VMNG', PR even on the modem, bleh.
Virgins total speed is calculated on all three broadband tiers (2mb, 10mb and 20mb). Considering that 2.4million of its customers use 2Mb, thats quite an impressive result to have!
Without knowing the breakdown of customers using the speedtests it's impossible to say how impressive or otherwise that is. Going by another website quoted by VM in the past the average speed on 20Mbit is just over 6Mbit.
Faster speeds have inherent problems for all networks, how many non PC enthusiasts have high speed broadband from "legacy" cable days and may not have the PC (or modem) to support such a fast speed.
They should have modems that run just fine for speeds, and a speedtest really doesn't stress any PC to run, a hard drive that can't write at 2.4MB/s is in real strife. This will also affect all operators equally.
The speed tests dont take how the testers connect to the internet, the avergae wireless user will be "G" based, severley restricting most speed test results.
As will this :)
So overall, speed test sites are rubbish! They will never give you an varying result of your speed! If you want to judge your speed then use a newsgroup server and download large files to judge your true speed.
Discuss ?
Newsgroups will give an even worse result on an old PC due to the stress of having to decode the stuff coming down. Wireless restricts newsgroups equally.
The only way to really test is to connect directly to a modem with a shiny new PC and have a dedicated link.
I am not really that surprised that VM might score well in a speedtest, however one would question whether it's something to be proud of when you're the only ISP in the country that doesn't have distance limitations on the service they can provide, and are only on average delivering your top tier of customer 36% of their line rate, about 1% higher than your copper based competition. Hyping yourself and your fibre optic broadband to death and being matched and in some cases beaten by the DSL crowd isn't good.
I wonder how much higher the speed test results would have been without STM in place ;)
theres quite a lot of posturing goin on.......goes to get popcorn
Seems VirginMedia are pushing the Speedtest sites to tidy up their act
VirginMedia and Speedtests (http://www.chetnet.co.uk/portal/forum/showthread.php?t=8887)
Ignitionnet
11-10-2008, 20:50
Maybe VM should get their own speed tester online if they don't think the current ones are adequate. I note they cite speedtest data in their advertisements.
I have achieved accurate speed tests on 100Mbit via thinkbroadband and bbmax.
Seems VirginMedia are pushing the Speedtest sites to tidy up their act
VirginMedia and Speedtests (http://www.chetnet.co.uk/portal/forum/showthread.php?t=8887)
Virgin recommend customers to use http://gamefiles.blueyonder.co.uk/ for speedtests. and even then you don't get half decent speeds sometimes. and that's on their own network!
them saying speedtest sites are making their speeds seem slow, is just a load of crap and they know it.
they're saying that they don't reflect the true speed of a 50Mb connection. they haven't even got a 50Mb connection available yet to even moan about. and the 20Mb they have got available has already been proved to be a lot slower than 20Mb anyway. unbelievable that they're trying to put the reason for this on speedtest sites. it really is.
they should set up their own speedtest instead of moaning about others. then we can all see the true results of a congested network that has STM.
they should set up their own speedtest instead of moaning about others. then we can all see the true results of a congested network that has STM.
Yes, and if the results are positive you'll shout foul I'll wager.
Look, even the testing sites know there are limitations to these tests, they openly admit it.
Many on here, myself included have regularly advised that these small packet test sites give anecdotal results at best, but don't take my word for it.
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkkFZEFpFkRzxYVcDK.html
Virgin Media (http://quadplay.at/ispr?LID=21) has informed us that the operator intends to launch an interesting new monthly broadband speed test programme, which will measure the accuracy of major speedtest sites with its forthcoming 50Mbps service.
The reasoning behind this is certainly sound because many consumers may not realise that Virgin's service is capable of going faster than the testers own server. ISPreview's own tester points out that accuracy above 8Mbps will diminish because the web server simply wouldn't be able to keep up.
Yes, and if the results are positive you'll shout foul I'll wager.
The results wouldn't be positive so there's not a chance of me crying foul.
I am going to suggest that they set up their own speedtest, and would recommend that they advertise it as being there. I can only hope they don't say it's a bad idea.
The results wouldn't be positive so there's not a chance of me crying foul.
I am going to suggest that they set up their own speedtest, and would recommend that they advertise it as being there. I can only hope they don't say it's a bad idea.
Could be interesting if they do provide their own testing.
Has to be 24hrs a day. not just from 1am till 10am because that wouldn't be fair.
Ignitionnet
12-10-2008, 10:27
Something that would be useful, I think, would be for VM to get the speedtest app from http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest but the Java version, and run it locally.
They could easily firewall it off so that only VM customers may use it, and it would present results to the DSLR servers in an easy to read and historical format, along with area information so that people could see where these tests are coming from.
The problem when an ISP is testing its' own service and presenting results to the public is, my humble opinion, it's too easy to be cynical about it. Using a 'neutral' speed testing application with publically readable results removes some of this doubt from people's minds.
In response to the doomsayers.
Like I said Cable Broadband is still technically under construction and i'm sorry but you'll just have to wait a little longer, try asking for 20MB speed from BT,Tiscali,Sky or Orange, you won't get any faster 3MB!!!
However, what Virgin Media need to focus on is City of Westminster in London, most of this area is business orientated and businesses need fast internet! NTL Telewest Business could offer superfast broadband, but is being neglected, I'm aware that offering Digital TV is a problem in this area, but Cable Broadband isn't and the towns and streets which would benefit would be:
Mayfair
Paddington
Marylebolne
Lisson Grove
Oxford Street
Charing Cross
Victoria (Westminster part)
Trafalgar Square
Strand
Soho
Piccadilly
Harley Street
Cleveland Street(Camden side is covered by ex-Telewest)
Regent Street
Wardour Street
Wimpole Street
Marble Arch
New/Bond Street
Covent Garden
Baker Street
St Johns Wood
Edgware Road
Sussex Gardens
Queensway
Maida Vale
Warwick Avenue
Queens Park
I'm also aware that Dolphin Square is completely upgraded and all 3 services are available there.
of course your forgetting that BT actually own the Westminster franchise and lease it to NTL/VM ,so NTL are rather limited in what they can do with it, it seems.
im not sure about the old BT network out in Milton Keynes though ,did BT sell that and it ended up in NTL/VMs hands!
does stating these known facts make one a so called "doomsayer" ?
"Cable Broadband is still technically under construction" were did you get that from?, its been constructed for a very long time now, unless you ment to say being upgraded, in which case sure, IF they put a good % of your payed subscription money into the upgrade pot, they can get some good upgrades, will they though, or more likely palm it off for their executive bonuses as they have done year on year so far....
---------- Post added at 08:03 ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 ----------
After reading these posts i thought I would throw in my own 2p ;)
The upstream launch with Broadband Size XXL of only 1.5Mb is nothing to do with core capactiy but more to do with the "pre cert" headend gear. The initial trial of upstream channel binding was done with Arris CMTS equipment which is silver cdertified DOCSIS 3 and allows upstream channel bonding. I believe 4.5Mbps upload was tested at this phase by bonding three channels together.
The equipment that has passed standard is the Cisco 10k series uBR chassis, both Docsis and Eurodocsis standards are being trialled currently and wil no doubt be franchise specific upon completion.
The modem that is being supplied will be the rather sexy lookig Ambit VMNG 300 Docsis 3 modem. It is very different to current modems and is a matte polished finish to bring it inline with more modern equipment (think playstation 3).
And as for the initial post comments, the news that Virgin is the fastest doesnt come as a surprise but please bear the following factors in mind...
Virgins total speed is calculated on all three broadband tiers (2mb, 10mb and 20mb). Considering that 2.4million of its customers use 2Mb, thats quite an impressive result to have!
Faster speeds have inherent problems for all networks, how many non PC enthusiasts have high speed broadband from "legacy" cable days and may not have the PC (or modem) to support such a fast speed.
The speed tests dont take how the testers connect to the internet, the avergae wireless user will be "G" based, severley restricting most speed test results.
So overall, speed test sites are rubbish! They will never give you an varying result of your speed! If you want to judge your speed then use a newsgroup server and download large files to judge your true speed.
Discuss ?
weesteev, your points about the current VM DS2.0B/DS3 network upgrades are interesting in that all the kit you mention is still "pre cert" in that if you define "pre cert" as anything thats not got a current "gold/Full" cert...
as of todays date, all the cisco Cable Modem Termination Systems cards are only currently Bronze certified.
and that Ambit VMNG 300 Docsis 3 CPE Cable modem isnt even listed on the latest official certfied list never mind got a mear Bronze cert ,although all the other Ambits that are DS3 cert are using the Bronze certified chipset so it reasonable to assume that to if it really exists is also the same bronze cert or at least capable of that bare minimum spec.
http://www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?blog_sectionid=419&doc_id=153456&site=cdn
http://www.cablemodem.com/downloads/Certified_Products.pdf
so from the tech POV, weres the data and errata sheets on this Ambit VMNG 300 Docsis 3 CPE Cable modem so we can determine its chipset and related long term expandability, a flashy plastic case means nothing if the PCB/kit inside it doesnt have all the hardware options required for the long term use and sevices saleability.
does this as you put it "rather sexy lookig Ambit VMNG 300 Docsis 3 modem" even have an internal 1gigbit router 4 port switch, ? , now that would be something well werth having on all the new DS3 kit for the end users to make good use of for the long term and cheap to include as standard too, and makes very good sense from a cable companys POV thats forcing its customers to rent all their kit if they want the service
the PS3 can be software upgraded and its super fast CPU and co-processors can be used for future services, the same cant be said for any of the DS3 chipsets and their underpowered SOC CPU's other than that one single Casa Systems FPGA based chipset that also the only fully certified to gold standard for some time.
Bronze = 4x4 4 downsteams bonded, no upstream bonding,Multicast to the CPE,IPv4/6.
silver = 4x4 4 downstream bonded, 4 upstream bonded,extended security+.
gold = 4x4 all the above plus all the other related requirement to the DS3 full spec
there is also a 8x4 DS3 chipset that will have bronze cert soon.
---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 ----------
the closest Amibit come to something reasonable for the long term is this U10C026.
BUT DONT mistake it as anything near real Docsis3 certified kit
http://www.ambitbroadband.com/na/index.php/products/product-detail/channel-bonded-modem/
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/10/48.jpg
Features
High performance MIPS4350 processor
Scalable clock rates to 300 MHz
DOCSIS 2.0+ channel bonded MAC with QoS and BPI+
Three advanced QAMLink® 1024QAM downstream demodulators
256QAM advanced TDMA and SCDMA upstream modulator
"the modems support future interoperability with full DOCSIS 3.0 CMTS and cable modems when they become available."
interoperability does not DS3 certified make.....
"a maximum 144Mbps downstream and up to 30Mbps upstream throughput"
and remember, the real DS3 downstream is peged at 40Mbit Per Channel so this unit could only EVER reach 120Mbit Max at best with the wind behind it with its DS2.0B/pre DS3 3 channels capability.
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