View Full Version : Pathetic excuse.
Andy Antilles at tech support says they are not telling anyone who requests if they are STMd and when it started anymore, with the lame excuse of them checking puts an unnecesary load on their servers.
What they really mean is you might be STMd because of too much load on the UBR you are on, and you now have no way of complaining about it.
Wrong again Gary. The command used to query the uBR to give you the start and end time of STM puts load on the uBR.
Go download netlimiter or some other such tool.
Wrong again Gary. The command used to query the uBR to give you the start and end time of STM puts load on the uBR.
That's their excuse too.
That's their excuse too.
where is your evidence it doesnt put any load on a ubr?
As with Andy Antilles, I also work for VM.
We are right, you however, are guessing.
As with Andy Antilles, I also work for VM.
We are right, you however, are guessing.
If I were to call tech support will they still say that they can't tell me why I have been STMd when I don't think I should be?
There is on average about 5 to 8 requests in any 24hr period where someone will be asking if they are STMd, and want to confirm whether it is that or a fault.
Using this excuse now means that nobody will be told now.
You seem to be confusing "reason" with "excuse" (imho).
Not like you not to give VM the benefit of the doubt. ;)
You seem to be confusing "reason" with "excuse" (imho).
Not like you not to give VM the benefit of the doubt. ;)
Andy says newsgroups are only usually used for either downloading of illegal content, XXX content or arguing between other newsgroups users and boosting peoples ego.
which one you into? :)
If I were to call tech support will they still say that they can't tell me why I have been STMd when I don't think I should be?
There is on average about 5 to 8 requests in any 24hr period where someone will be asking if they are STMd, and want to confirm whether it is that or a fault.
Using this excuse now means that nobody will be told now.
Correct Gary, tech support would not be able to tell you, first line do not have uBR access.
So those bright buttons that use newsgroups can't/won't download an application that will monitor their usage. Which in turn they can use as hard evidence to show they/you are being STM'd unfairly? Laughable.
And again........ Not an excuse.
Whats your beef with VM Gary, come on?
Correct Gary, tech support would not be able to tell you, first line do not have uBR access.
So those bright buttons that use newsgroups can't/won't download a application that will monitor their usage. Which in turn they can use as hard evidence to show they/you are being STM'd unfairly? Laughable.
And again........ Not an excuse.
Whats your beef with VM Gary, come on?
So what you're saying is that upto 8 requests a day for this information is too much. and it's the customers responsibility to challenge being unfairly STMd without the help and evidence provided from the technical support of their own ISP. if they want to challenge it they have to provide their own evidence.
You should have at least something to start your claim with.
I see this day in and day out Gary, only to prove that the user has downloaded/uploaded their limit and hit STM.
You should have atleast something to start your claim with.
I see this day in and day out Gary, only to prove that the user has downloaded/uploaded their limit and hit STM.
Well I see it day in day out where the user hasn't downloaded/uploaded their limit, and is even discovering a fault as a result of checking with tech support.
It has been acknowledged before that STM has been activated on users accounts as a result of a fault with the system.
This will now be swept under the carpet along with the forthcoming results of the fault investigation.
Evidence of these claims made by others, day in and day out. If you please...
Evidence of these claims made by others, day in and day out. If you please...
Here you go mate, you'll find some in all the following places.
Do you think you'll get them to change their mind about not checking for the customer?
virginmedia.support.broadband.cable
virginmedia.feedback
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/
I just see links to forums, not threads with evidence.
none of those forums have any evidence in the first page of topics, try again.
I just see links to forums, not threads with evidence.
The top 2 are Virgin internal news groups.
Any chance of supporting evidence to back up your claim?
---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------
none of those forums have any evidence in the first page of topics, try again.
Yes, try the next button, or the button with number 2 or 3.
Jonathan90
14-09-2008, 16:13
no offence gary l but install bw meter or some other monitor tool if you do get capped/stm and the monitor says different then you got evidence simple as without evidence this thread is pointless
I'm in the groups now, I see 2 requests for STM time. No evidence of the trigger being incorrect.
One guy even asks
Why cant the system auto email out the fact you have been STM rather than post here?
--
Kevin R
Reply address works
DU meter for the win.. :D
Yes, try the next button, or the button with number 2 or 3.
but you said 'day in day out' so if it happens daily, surely 2 or 3 days worth of topics on a couple of forums would be plenty? or is it not happening at all? :p:
no offence gary l but install bw meter or some other monitor tool if you do get capped/stm and the monitor says different then you got evidence simple as without evidence this thread is pointless
Hope this helps explain my posting more clearly.
could you tell me what time I was STM'd please.
We are unable to perform this check anymore as it has been requested that we
do not place unnecessary load on the servers. We may be able to advise of
this again in the future once new systems are in place to combat the server
loads. Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
Your kidding right?, sending a very small data request may use about 3 to 5k, you could send hundreds and cause very little load on the
servers, someone pulling your leg.
You've gota be joking ??
Alex Brown keeps insisting STM works as "described on the tin" and
there are "no capacity issues" yet now VM are insisting that yet
another "important feature" cannot be verified as working correctly or
not due the extra load your few requests per day put on the servers".
Yet ever more users are being added to open tickets where there are
STM issues being outside the published hours, will these be swept
under the carpet like so many other service issues which affect paying
customers ??
This leaves paying customers totally unable to tell if any speed
issues are due to triggering STM or any other connection issues.
Highly suspect move....
it would not be unreasonable to suggest this moves only intent is to make it
un-nessasarly difficult for people to check for incorrect STM.
Something we all know is happening far too much and often with no
resolution.
very very poor move indeed.
---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:20 ----------
I'm in the groups now, I see 2 requests for STM time. No evidence of the trigger being incorrect.
Are you aware of STM being incorrect on certain UBRs at anytime whilst an employee of VM?
---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------
but you said 'day in day out'
So did Gary_the_Troll :)
So did r00t :)
Thats right Gary, I see claims, not evidence.
Show me/us the evidence.
xspeedyx
14-09-2008, 16:29
Gary L bashes thread YAY seriously Gary your a typical customer that doesnt listen unless its something that you want to hear, just download DU meter.
Gary L bashes thread YAY seriously Gary your a typical customer that doesnt listen unless its something that you want to hear, just download DU meter.
I already have DU meter. I will download it again if it makes the thread go back on topic.
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 16:41
Wrong again Gary. The command used to query the uBR to give you the start and end time of STM puts load on the uBR.
Go download netlimiter or some other such tool.
Is there not enough CPU spare on the uBRs to cope with this command being run here and there?
I'm sure that plenty of CPU would be freed up on them by turning STM off :)
Virgin can't just do it 'here and there'.
Just as they can't just answer bill queries 'here and there'
They either have to offer the service to all customers or to none of them
cook1984
14-09-2008, 16:51
The command used to query the uBR to give you the start and end time of STM puts load on the uBR.
That really is a pathetic excuse. The amount of load generated by one query is tiny and lasts for a fraction of a second. In fact most network hardware supports constant monitoring by SNMP anyway. Either they bought the lamest UBRs in the world EVAR or their are just making a pathetic excuse.
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 16:53
I'm in the groups now, I see 2 requests for STM time. No evidence of the trigger being incorrect.
One guy even asks
DU meter for the win.. :D
VM's OSS team not being idle bstards and giving us a web interface so that we can see how much we've used for the win.. :D
Then there's the issue of multiple people using say the VM supplied router. Not sure why they should have to start messing with MRTG / PRTG because VM are too cheap to ensure their network has adequate capacity :angel:
Actually that's probably a bad idea if the CMTSes alledgedly can't even handle the load of a couple of queries, heaven knows what having to report utilisation stats per modem would do to them.
Shambolic, and while you might find your pithy comment funny I don't. It typifies the attitude of some of VM to customers, from pretty senior management down.
That really is a pathetic excuse. The amount of load generated by one query is tiny and lasts for a fraction of a second. In fact most network hardware supports constant monitoring by SNMP anyway. Either they bought the lamest UBRs in the world EVAR or their are just making a pathetic excuse.
As with Gary. Show us your proof.
/me un-subscribes from thread until someone posts something more than just thin air.
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 16:55
That really is a pathetic excuse. The amount of load generated by one query is tiny and lasts for a fraction of a second. In fact most network hardware supports constant monitoring by SNMP anyway. Either they bought the lamest UBRs in the world EVAR or their are just making a pathetic excuse.
Or they haven't upgraded the CPUs on the kit and it's struggling both with all the extra customers they've been packing on each one thanks to the capacity they've saved with STM, and thanks to having to run STM. ;)
---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------
As with Gary. Show us your proof.
/me un-subscribes from thread until someone posts something more than just thin air.
As with your constant requests for proof, show me a show proc cpu history output from one of these alledgedly under strain uBRs. :angel: You're the one who said they couldn't be queried as it puts stress on them.
Evidently you have none either, beyond rote repeating of what you were told.
Or maybe the people that design uBRs think that will be used to route internet traffic rather than to be queried directly and constantly, and build appropriately?
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 16:59
Or maybe the people that design uBRs think that will be used to route internet traffic rather than to be queried directly and constantly, and build appropriately?
Or they design and build them to be used to cleanly route appropriate amounts of internet traffic, rather than overloaded through being made to monitor and control the traffic of thousands of customers. ;)
If the uBRs are using the recommended hardware for their loading and whatever monitoring VM are using, and they are queried regularly in many other ways, it shouldn't be an issue.
It's either a lame excuse sent down from on high to stop the techs querying for whatever reason, maybe while certain managers carry out their latest trial to 'improve' our service, or there's some kit that's badly underspec.
As with Gary. Show us your proof.
/me un-subscribes from thread until someone posts something more than just thin air.
Show us your proof then. show us the proof that it puts a strain on the network in the few seconds it takes to make the query, and then we'll know that we are not being fobbed off with what the title of the thread says. a pathetic excuse.
---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------
As with your constant requests for proof, show me a show proc cpu history output from one of these alledgedly under strain uBRs. :angel: You're the one who said they couldn't be queried as it puts stress on them.
Evidently you have none either, beyond rote repeating of what you were told.
He hasn't answered any of my questions put to him either. I think he's expecting me to let him do all the invisible facts and figures, and just believe them :D
---------- Post added at 17:17 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------
Evidence of these claims made by others, day in and day out. If you please...
Here's a fresh one. it's only 30 mins old.
posted in the virginmedia.support.broadband.cable group.
Yet again for the squillionth time i have been STM'd before i have really
downloaded anything. Noticed i've downloaded the huge total of 32meg but it
most probably kicked in at 4pm like it has done on the other (i think) 10
occasions - all on a sunday. Can someone PLEASE do something about it
instead of the usual "we'll pass it on". And can you please switch STM off
on my connection as you and i know it has been done incorrectly.
Jonathan90
14-09-2008, 17:50
don't think he is allowed to post that kind of stuff gary but i am kind of getting it simple command can put load on the server and btw i am all up for auto email if being stm'd lol not gonna happen but would cut down the random calls saying have i been stm'ed
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 17:52
I would actually like to see comprehensive usage stats by the day, month and for each STM applicable period along with notice of if / when and for how long STM'd.
Not too much to ask from an ISP of VM's size imho.
don't think he is allowed to post that kind of stuff gary but i am kind of getting it simple command can put load on the server and btw i am all up for auto email if being stm'd lol not gonna happen but would cut down the random calls saying have i been stm'ed
I know it's not possible for him to post that kind of stuff. that's why he can say what he says without having to back it up. he just wants everyone to back up their counter claim, and if they don't then what he says is right :)
Is there not enough CPU spare on the uBRs to cope with this command being run here and there?
I'm sure that plenty of CPU would be freed up on them by turning STM off :)
There is and checking to see if someone is STM'd using very very very very little resources so wont really add to load.
Jonathan90
14-09-2008, 18:03
on another point i think less tech savvy users don't no the difference between stm and over subscription and also this is a Sunday were most people are on the net. thats why i think they think they have been capped wrongly
don't think he is allowed to post that kind of stuff gary but i am kind of getting it simple command can put load on the server and btw i am all up for auto email if being stm'd lol not gonna happen but would cut down the random calls saying have i been stm'ed
After working on network hardware for VM for quite a few years to say the least, it will barely put any load on at all.
Only reason not to do it is if the UBR is already over subscribed/utilized, which some (well..alot these days) are...
If the uBRs are using the recommended hardware for their loading and whatever monitoring VM are using, and they are queried regularly in many other ways, it shouldn't be an issue.
It's either a lame excuse sent down from on high to stop the techs querying for whatever reason, maybe while certain managers carry out their latest trial to 'improve' our service, or there's some kit that's badly underspec.
That is a very good point you have made there. they have to be monitored and queried very regulary, so 8 or so queries for the benefit of the customer shouldn't be a problem, but it is a problem becuse it's the customer who wants the information and not themselves.
Jonathan90
14-09-2008, 18:09
sorry trax came out wrong
"but i am kind of getting it can a simple command put load on the ubr imo i don't think so"
dam man rushing thngs don't help lol backwards and forwards between forums doesn't help either.
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 18:23
If the kit isn't going to be placed under excess duress by these queries being run we can only assume that people are playing games with the STM again and don't want people finding out that they've been STM'd as part of one of these trials.
I really don't understand why they'd not want people to know though, considering STM improves our service. :confused:
Wrong again Gary. The command used to query the uBR to give you the start and end time of STM puts load on the uBR.
Go download netlimiter or some other such tool.
Now I've lost all credibility in you.
The command doesn't put any load on the UBR as it's not the UBR that's queried, instead it's the authentication server.
you surely should know the difference between the two, and you could have told me all this in the first place :rolleyes:
I'm more convinced now that this is all being made up as we go along :confused:
Is these the same authentication servers that are being asked thousands of times a day, Hello, cable modem here. how are you, can I have an IP please?
Jonathan90
14-09-2008, 18:39
Gary L that does make sense tbh did r00t get busted lol.
edit
actually quick google search isn't it the dhcp server which give the ip out after being verified through Some sort then getting the config file through t ftp or am i completely wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Broadband_Router
A typical CMTS allows a subscriber's computer to obtain an IP address (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_address) by forwarding DHCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Host_Configuration_Protocol) requests to the relevant servers. This DHCP server returns, for the most part, what looks like a typical response including an assigned IP address for the computer, gateway/router addresses to use, DNS servers, etc.
The CMTS may also implement some basic filtering to protect against unauthorized users and various attacks. Traffic shaping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_shaping) is sometimes performed to prioritize application traffic, perhaps based upon subscribed plan or download usage. However, the function of traffic shaping is more likely done by a Policy Traffic Switch. A CMTS may also act as a bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_bridge) or router (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Router)
Gary L that does make sense tbh did r00t get busted lol.
edit
actually quick google search isn't it the dhcp server which give the ip out after being verified through Some sort then getting the config file through t ftp or am i completely wrong?
I don't know, but we're not going to be asking r00t :D
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 19:27
1) Cable modem searches downstream frequencies, the Hamster in the modem twiddles the tuning knob until he hears Radio DOCSIS.
2) Modem listens to the parameters of the channel so that the Hamster can observe good manners in knowing when to speak on the phone in and what number to call.
3) Hamster speaks, uBR listens and tells Hamster how loudly to speak, and when so that Hamster can win the phone in prize of getting online.
4) Hamster, feeling somewhat lacking in identity, requests an IP address. uBR proxies this request and forwards it to DHCP servers, configured on it as cable helper addresses.
5) Once Hamster has an IP it requests a config file from the TFTP server specified in the DHCP offer it received earlier.
6) Once Hamster has a config file to tell it how and when, and how much it can talk it asks for the time.
7) Once Hamster has the time it begins its' jibba jabba.
When a router or PC is connected to the cable modem it asks for an IP address, the modem forwards this request to the uBR which forwards it to DHCP servers configured as IP Helpers, and then forwards the response.
When the uBR needs to work out which modem has what devices attached to it it can either ARP for them or ask the DHCP server depending on how it's been configured.
---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------
Wrong again Gary. The command used to query the uBR to give you the start and end time of STM puts load on the uBR.
Go download netlimiter or some other such tool.
Wrong r00t it's not the uBRs that are under load it's the ACS authorisation server.
So purely a case of VM needing to upgrade their internal AAA setup.
Had we been given this information straight away instead of you giving out incorrect info along with your helpful netlimiter suggestion it would've saved a 4 page thread, fun though it was. It's still pretty appauling that VM have to limit the amount of commands people can use managing their kit, laughable infact, but it's not a CMTS loading issue.
*Note to self don't listen to r00t.
can someone tell me what all these abbreviations stand for as im thick lol cheers
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 19:34
ACS Access Control Server
AAA Authentication, Authorisation, and Accounting
CMTS Cable Modem Termination System
xspeedyx
14-09-2008, 20:24
Ok Virgin wont tell you they cant or wont who cares if your service is shocking you need complain instead of crying that tech support wont tell you something it aint gonna help never has and never will, if Gary has a issue you need to write to head office log faults all that stuff and you can even pm a mod here and see if something can be done.
*Waits for darthy to get bashed*
Ok Virgin wont tell you they cant or wont who cares
*Waits for darthy to get bashed*
Not really a bashing, but a comment. Most people will care of the above because in this case it might be the cause of a fault - which is something you would think someone in the faults department might need to check.
In instances such as these, a fault with STM being wrongly applied is a possibility that ought to be eliminated by a support call as and when appropriate. Denying support staff from querying the system inhibits their ability to investigate and diagnose someone calling with the 'constantly STM'ed' saga.
The only circumstance under not allowing support staff to query the STM system is when the STM system is 100% infallable. Can anybody give a concrete statement as to if this condition does or does not exist?
whydoIneedatech
14-09-2008, 21:29
The only tool we have that can see if someone is being traffic managed does not tell us when it actually started, and I have never been asked the question as yet "I am I being traffic managed" but I know that day will come and I will endeavour to get them a genuine answer to their query.:)
Florence
14-09-2008, 22:05
I still can't understand why VM cannot give the customer a webpage they can sign into to view their usage. I never knew how much I was using in a month I was struggling with speeds and yes was hit by the 4 hour slow speeds a few times even though I am not a heavy user.
Have to say it is much easier now on ADSL I actua get the speeds my router can give in peak times I am not seeing any slowdown. If I use over my limits I pay per gig so my speed is never restricted.
Two screenshots of my usage to show what is their to help you stay inside your allowence.
I still can't understand why VM cannot give the customer a webpage they can sign into to view their usage. I never knew how much I was using in a month I was struggling with speeds and yes was hit by the 4 hour slow speeds a few times even though I am not a heavy user.
Have to say it is much easier now on ADSL I actua get the speeds my router can give in peak times I am not seeing any slowdown. If I use over my limits I pay per gig so my speed is never restricted.
Two screenshots of my usage to show what is their to help you stay inside your allowence.
14.09.2008 36.73 GB 0.83 GB 37.56 GB
13.09.2008 7.33 GB 0.18 GB 7.51 GB
12.09.2008 10.58 GB 0.29 GB 10.87 GB
11.09.2008 5.71 GB 0.17 GB 5.88 GB
10.09.2008 1.30 GB 0.05 GB 1.35 GB
09.09.2008 0.20 GB 0.08 GB 0.28 GB
08.09.2008 0.39 GB 0.05 GB 0.44 GB
07.09.2008 9.47 GB 0.28 GB 9.75 GB
06.09.2008 4.08 GB 0.19 GB 4.27 GB
last 24 hours as screen shot below
So yes i can tell instantly if i have been ripped off by STM
I still can't understand why VM cannot give the customer a webpage they can sign into to view their usage. I never knew how much I was using in a month I was struggling with speeds and yes was hit by the 4 hour slow speeds a few times even though I am not a heavy user.
Have to say it is much easier now on ADSL I actua get the speeds my router can give in peak times I am not seeing any slowdown. If I use over my limits I pay per gig so my speed is never restricted.
Two screenshots of my usage to show what is their to help you stay inside your allowence.
Going on last quarter's results, this would require VM to implement and manage 3,500,000+ web-pages, being constantly updated.
Going on last quarter's results, this would require VM to implement and manage 3,500,000+ web-pages, being constantly updated.
Somehow i think thats more than acuiss will ever have to deal with. They only deal with a small userbase.
Ignitionnet
14-09-2008, 22:45
Going on last quarter's results, this would require VM to implement and manage 3,500,000+ web-pages, being constantly updated.
No it wouldn't, it would require them to implement a single dynamic page to pull usage data from a back end database.
The way you've put it makes it sound like they would be individually updating every page which is of course ridiculous.
One web page, one interface to a database which holds usage data pulled from each CMTS. It's not unreasonable and if other cable companies can do it you'd imagine Virgin can. Number of customers is no excuse at all. Once the code is in place, the database prepped and all broadband customers are of course already on a database, and the front end HTML etc built there's very little need for any human intervention at all.
---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------
Somehow i think thats more than acuiss will ever have to deal with. They only deal with a small userbase.
Which made the stats more expensive for them. Whether they had 500 or 500,000 customers most of the costs would have been similar, apart from storage which is nothing anyway. They split the costs of the implementation between less customers so more expense per customer.
---------- Post added at 22:45 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------
last 24 hours as screen shot below
So yes i can tell instantly if i have been ripped off by STM
You've used more in the past day than I have in the previous 4 months :p:
That's cool but some people can't set such things up as they don't have the wherewithall, more to the point why should they? They purchase 'unlimited' broadband they shouldn't be having to go out of their way to ensure they don't hit the limits on it and get throttled.
The least Virgin could do it give us some way of monitoring our usage, though this debate has been going on for years and it's always been a case of 'download netmeter'. Netmeter should ask VM for sponsorship.
To borrow a quote from the newsgroups:
I appreciate it's not going to be high on the list of priorities, it being something that doesn't immediately make money and will purely bring convenience for customers, but it's worth a look I hope, and won't along with increased uploads go in the 'customers don't want or need' pile on AB's desk.
Florence
15-09-2008, 00:21
Going on last quarter's results, this would require VM to implement and manage 3,500,000+ web-pages, being constantly updated.
They are auto run by scripts direct from BT centrals all ADSL providers have them all come direct from BT centrals.
To implement any form on limitations the ISP should supply a way for the customer to check..
Not everyone can use wht you have infact I tried to use MRTG but the modem has the function required disabled making it fail to monitor..
---------- Post added at 00:21 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------
Somehow i think thats more than acuiss will ever have to deal with. They only deal with a small userbase.
Who is acuiss?
Somehow I feel you didn't read everything but just a selection of things in the Aquiss customer control panel even allows me to monitor the faults and see what BT engineers have put in as they test, to see which central pipe I am on and if it is near capacity so I can drop ppp and change to another less busy pipe. My profile which is the speed BT have said my router, equipment and line can handle plus more I can even check how often i dropped the internet. All the scripts cost money and take up some server space but all to help me have a better service plus know what I have used...
The best part I dont have to download anything or find webspace to store the information on. It was an eye opener after 8 years of being in the dark with NTL and VM..
They are auto run by scripts direct from BT centrals all ADSL providers have them all come direct from BT centrals.
To implement any form on limitations the ISP should supply a way for the customer to check..
Not everyone can use wht you have infact I tried to use MRTG but the modem has the function required disabled making it fail to monitor..
---------- Post added at 00:21 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------
Who is acuiss?
.
My god are you now that petty that you pull someone for an "a" instead of a "A"
I ask you this. When you waffled on about you ability to check your usage who did you say provided that facility ?????
CrowmanUK
15-09-2008, 08:40
Sirius, you may have the information to show if VM was ripping you off but if you did get STM'd without actually hitting it and presented them with the information I dont think they'd do anything about it, the attitude I had when I was with them was that if your connection was stm'd then it was correct regardless of what evidence you had.
Florence
15-09-2008, 11:39
My god are you now that petty that you pull someone for an "a" instead of a "A"
I ask you this. When you waffled on about you ability to check your usage who did you say provided that facility ?????
The name is on the screenshots, my signature has the name, just recently I get the impression if certain people post in any thread on here they seem to come under some form of attack. I have the last few times in manners to try to devalue the posts.
Yet i follow the rules, I was only trying to express that if an ISP wishes to follow the limitations route they should provide a method of checking the usage. It is possible if they wanted to do it but they want to limit yet not alow customer access to proof of usage which I fee is wrong. VM have many that don't have the knowledge to set up things like you have so end up just trusting VM. With recent events that is/may not be the best way.
Sirius, you may have the information to show if VM was ripping you off but if you did get STM'd without actually hitting it and presented them with the information I dont think they'd do anything about it, the attitude I had when I was with them was that if your connection was stm'd then it was correct regardless of what evidence you had.
I fully agree
xspeedyx
15-09-2008, 14:47
Not really as if you proof and make a high level complaint you would get further, people are saying I cant check if I have hit the limit, Sirus shows you how to and also there are plenty of bandwidth mointors out there and before you say customer dont know how to use these things, what makes you think they could use there email to check these
Not really as if you proof and make a high level complaint you would get further, people are saying I cant check if I have hit the limit, Sirus shows you how to and also there are plenty of bandwidth mointors out there and before you say customer dont know how to use these things, what makes you think they could use there email to check these
How does a customer make a high level complaint with VM?How long before ordinary avenues have failed to deliver a result does it take for a complaint to be taken further?And who normally can take it further on the customer's behalf?
Milambar
15-09-2008, 15:33
Uh, I hate to say ask this, but when are you going to realise that you aren't actually meant to USE your VM broadband, its only provided so that you may legally say "Hey, I'm with Virgin Media for my broadband!", for the sheer "Pose power"..
Ok, and now I have made that rather poor witticism..
I note the techs here saying that we should download DU meter, how long has DU meter existed for a games console now? Oh wait, it doesn't. OK. How long has it existed for Linux? (Yes, I know Linux has its own suite of monitoring tools, but they named DU Meter specifically)..
I have a proposition... Not directly linked to STM, but indirectly linked, I guess.
Why not turn network usage monitoring via SNMP on the cable modems, like it used to be, a long time ago. Yes, it really did, back in the time of the Ambit100's and 120's. There used to be a tool you could download, that after a bit of faffing around, would query your cable modem for all kinds of stats, including network usage. Until VM sent a new firmware to the modems, disabling the SNMP capabilities.
Why not restore that functionality?
xspeedyx
15-09-2008, 15:50
As I remember ambit's where NTL modem what about ex telewest customers?.
Plus VM support windows not linux thats why they suggest using DU Meter, plus you dont have to pose with your crap VM connection you know
---------- Post added at 15:50 ---------- Previous post was at 15:47 ----------
How does a customer make a high level complaint with VM?How long before ordinary avenues have failed to deliver a result does it take for a complaint to be taken further?And who normally can take it further on the customer's behalf?
What ared the ASA and OFCOM here for, if people want to make a complaint I am sure if they try hard enough they can take it as far as they like people are just lazy these days and just complain to there mates and think it will get sirted no if somethings wrong sort it until your happy follow it up and kick ass on the way if you have to.
Milambar
15-09-2008, 16:11
Actually, Darth, to be fair, it has to be said that in the 8 years Ive been an C&W/NTL/VM customer, I have only had to phone technical support 4 times, and use the newsgroup support once, and that each time, the problem has been rectified quickly and efficiently.
Although when mom died in 2005, there were problems as I had to get the service moved from her name into mine, and was without internet for almost 3 months, as first they set up a direct debit on HER account in MY name, etc. All kinds of stupid mistakes like that, but thats Customer Services, not Technical Support... In the end, it was sorted out when someone who worked for VM, on another forum (chetnet), emailed me, and took control of the issues...
Therefore, I don't think the service itself is crap, on the contary, I find it stable, and suits my needs adequately, although others obviously dont agree with me. However their customer relations policies do appear to be designed to drive loyal customers away, however, those are issues for other forums.
With regards to your comments about ambits and ex-telewest. I have to admit I know nothing about the ex-Telewest systems, but since the SNMP was working on the actual customers CM, and not the UBR, why could that not be reimplemented?
What ared the ASA and OFCOM here for, if people want to make a complaint I am sure if they try hard enough they can take it as far as they like people are just lazy these days and just complain to there mates and think it will get sirted no if somethings wrong sort it until your happy follow it up and kick ass on the way if you have to.
I think you took my query the wrong way..I really must remember to include smileys at all times...I wasn't attacking I was wondering how patient people need to be before trying to escalate an issue like this...and how much proof they need?:erm:
xspeedyx
15-09-2008, 16:29
Actually, Darth, to be fair, it has to be said that in the 8 years Ive been an C&W/NTL/VM customer, I have only had to phone technical support 4 times, and use the newsgroup support once, and that each time, the problem has been rectified quickly and efficiently.
Although when mom died in 2005, there were problems as I had to get the service moved from her name into mine, and was without internet for almost 3 months, as first they set up a direct debit on HER account in MY name, etc. All kinds of stupid mistakes like that, but thats Customer Services, not Technical Support... In the end, it was sorted out when someone who worked for VM, on another forum (chetnet), emailed me, and took control of the issues...
Therefore, I don't think the service itself is crap, on the contary, I find it stable, and suits my needs adequately, although others obviously dont agree with me. However their customer relations policies do appear to be designed to drive loyal customers away, however, those are issues for other forums.
With regards to your comments about ambits and ex-telewest. I have to admit I know nothing about the ex-Telewest systems, but since the SNMP was working on the actual customers CM, and not the UBR, why could that not be reimplemented?
Dont get me wrong Usage status would be great but there is 3rd party software which can do this, people just have to be bothered to sort it themselves as Virgin havent done this and from what I can see wont
---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------
I think you took my query the wrong way..I really must remember to include smileys at all times...I wasn't attacking I was wondering how patient people need to be before trying to escalate an issue like this...and how much proof they need?:erm:
sorry didnt meant to come across like I was attacking your post
CrowmanUK
15-09-2008, 17:01
Sorry Darth but after having had to deal with customer/tech support and getting nowhere I gave up and got in touch with the ISPA, I had departments telling me I'd got in touch with the wrong dept and handing me all over the place but I never actually got to talk to somebody who could help, I asked if I could speak to a manager only to be told that no, I couldnt speak to one but they could phone me back, that never happened and why should somebody have to phone the ISPA for something as simple as this.
I had bandwidth software running on my pc and when I told them that there was no way I should have been stm'd I got asked if I ever turn off the dsl modem because the modem logs might have been in error. So even if you do have proof that you've been wrongly stm'd you'll either get shoved from one incorrect dept to another and never get to speak to somebody who can/will sort it out.
The tech guy even said, it says in the logs you're stm'd and theres nothing we can do about it.
It's depressing to be honest, for you cable guys by the time you're finished on the phone sorting it out the 5 hour limits probably gone off.
Ignitionnet
15-09-2008, 17:09
The DSL never had a definite STM they just STM'd you if you were in the top 5% of users unfortunately. Be that 100GB/month or 1GB/month if you're in that top 5% on Virgin.net you get nailed :(
CrowmanUK
15-09-2008, 17:35
Thats why I made sure I only browsed the web/played games during peak times, any downloading I did was outside those hours but trying to argue your case just runs up the phone bill so I gave up.
The DSL never had a definite STM they just STM'd you if you were in the top 5% of users unfortunately. Be that 100GB/month or 1GB/month if you're in that top 5% on Virgin.net you get nailed :(
I can say with some certainty that the STM on Virgin.net always works out some way north of 30GB/month - or at least it has been in every month I've indulged in heavy downloading. I've never had my line 'managed'. I suspect that the top 5% of Virgin.net users are probably *very* heavy downloaders indeed.
CrowmanUK
15-09-2008, 17:46
One guy at Tech support said that if you download around 5gig a week you would fall into the top 5% and get STM'd, that week I'd downloaded just over 7gig, and all of it in the morning, well outside stm time. I was not a happy chappy :(
blaupunkt
15-09-2008, 19:40
going on some of the replys here am i to understand that you will now be traffic managed if you download and go over your cap at any time of the day ? i was under the impression that you could download as much as you wanted between the hours of mightnight and 4pm in the afternoon was it, if you went over your limit (depending what line you have) you would then be traffic managed for aprox 4 hours..
going on some of the replys here am i to understand that you will now be traffic managed if you download and go over your cap at any time of the day ? i was under the impression that you could download as much as you wanted between the hours of mightnight and 4pm in the afternoon was it, if you went over your limit (depending what line you have) you would then be traffic managed for aprox 4 hours..
Daytime STM was added a few months ago.
The new hours are (note im only doing the limits for 20Mbit)
10AM-3PM 6GB Download
4PM-9PM 3GB Download
And it's 5 hours down to 5Mbit
blaupunkt
15-09-2008, 20:24
ok thanks, best not download to many xbox360 demos then when i get in from work :S lucky i only use the PS3 for bluray.
SteevieNiteHeat
16-09-2008, 01:58
Dont get me wrong Usage status would be great but there is 3rd party software which can do this, people just have to be bothered to sort it themselves as Virgin havent done this and from what I can see wont
BUT what about the homes with multiple users, what, the account hodler has to access x amount of PC's and add up all the figures?
And then as somebody said, gaming consoles that these "monitoring tools" cannot be installed on...
Also while I am on the subject, I have more than 1 PC in my home, and a central sever which backs up computers at different times of the day & night over the network, so the information that gets backed up also counts on these "monitoring tools" - DU meter & Netmeter and the like, so how accurate would these tools be? not very at all!
just trying to add more as I agree that virgin SHOULD supply something to show how much you have used!
xspeedyx
16-09-2008, 09:41
Which I agree they should but a router can do this a Sirus pointed out and if you have a network you can use a router to do this netmeter and likes of this are only really good if you have one pc more than one pc or gaming console then a router can do this, as your more likely to have a router if using more than on pc/console
SteevieNiteHeat
16-09-2008, 11:04
Which I agree they should but a router can do this a Sirus pointed out and if you have a network you can use a router to do this netmeter and likes of this are only really good if you have one pc more than one pc or gaming console then a router can do this, as your more likely to have a router if using more than on pc/console
IF every router could do it (and I know mine cannot) and people transfer files between PC's by network, how do you think them files are transfered??? yep you got it, it goes through the router, so your point STILL is not valid, as say I transfer a 3GB file from one PC to another, that 3GB WILL show up as data, one computer will be uploading the data, while the target computer will be downloading it from the uploading computer, you think that internal network bandwidth (pc-to-pc) is not counted??
This is why my DU Meter shows my monthly usage around 300GB just on 1 computer alone, without the others around the house!!!
Ignitionnet
16-09-2008, 11:05
IF every router could do it (and I know mine cannot) and people transfer files between PC's by network, how do you think them files are transfered??? yep you got it, it goes through the router, so your point STILL is not valid, as say I transfer a 3GB file from one PC to another, that 3GB WILL show up as data, one computer will be uploading the data, while the target computer will be downloading it from the uploading computer, you think that internal network bandwidth (pc-to-pc) is not counted??
This is why my DU Meter shows my monthly usage around 300GB just on 1 computer alone, without the others around the house!!!
You need to monitor the WAN port on the router, not the LAN port. That way only traffic that goes onto your internet link will be counted.
xspeedyx
16-09-2008, 12:13
I knew mr broadband would help with the my post lol
You need to monitor the WAN port on the router, not the LAN port. That way only traffic that goes onto your internet link will be counted.
Abit of a ****take having to do all that though.
Glad i dont have to put up with issues like that :p:
SteevieNiteHeat
16-09-2008, 12:30
You need to monitor the WAN port on the router, not the LAN port. That way only traffic that goes onto your internet link will be counted.
But STILL, some if not most routers do not support this, so then what can we use??
It is down to virgin to provide measures so we can check this information!
With the phone package, they dont charge people for calls WITHOUT showing the important information so we the customers can check, such as date, time, number called, duration and cost of each call etc, and yes we even have the choice for FULL itemised billing, so if they can apply this to the phone package, they can easily apply it to broadband! But like has been said somewhere above, they are now saying they cannot as their STM model is a joke and a lot of people have been hit with STM without even using their connections, yes there is a fault with it, and this is virgin's way of denying all liability for problems with THEIR STM model! Its the typical VM BS of lying & even having the cheek to blame US the customers that put the phat bonuses in their pockets for sitting on their useless (often fat) backsides as they cook up even more ways to screw its PAYING loyal customers over yet again!
Point prooved, enough said! This will be my final word on the matter as nothing anyone can say will make me change my mind!
Ignitionnet
16-09-2008, 12:36
Abit of a ****take having to do all that though.
Glad i dont have to put up with issues like that :p:
Quite agree.
xspeedyx
16-09-2008, 12:46
But STILL, some if not most routers do not support this, so then what can we use??
It is down to virgin to provide measures so we can check this information!
With the phone package, they dont charge people for calls WITHOUT showing the important information so we the customers can check, such as date, time, number called, duration and cost of each call etc, and yes we even have the choice for FULL itemised billing, so if they can apply this to the phone package, they can easily apply it to broadband! But like has been said somewhere above, they are now saying they cannot as their STM model is a joke and a lot of people have been hit with STM without even using their connections, yes there is a fault with it, and this is virgin's way of denying all liability for problems with THEIR STM model! Its the typical VM BS of lying & even having the cheek to blame US the customers that put the phat bonuses in their pockets for sitting on their useless (often fat) backsides as they cook up even more ways to screw its PAYING loyal customers over yet again!
Point prooved, enough said! This will be my final word on the matter as nothing anyone can say will make me change my mind!
and now think of your happy place and breath
SteevieNiteHeat
16-09-2008, 12:48
and now think of your happy place and breath
do not patronise me, I have my oppinions and you have yours!
Not everyone has a router that can do what yours can!
and now think of your happy place and breath
Ok *rolls a joint*...ok i'm going to a pretty place where the flowers grow, i'll be back later :p:
xspeedyx
16-09-2008, 12:55
do not patronise me, I have my oppinions and you have yours!
Not everyone has a router that can do what yours can!
I see someone needs a hug and a happy pill, come on dude I was playing around, trax pass the joint to stev.
Sorry mods will get back on topic now
Kaychsea
16-09-2008, 13:42
But STILL, some if not most routers do not support this, so then what can we use??
It is down to virgin to provide measures so we can check this information!
With the phone package, they dont charge people for calls WITHOUT showing the important information so we the customers can check, such as date, time, number called, duration and cost of each call etc, and yes we even have the choice for FULL itemised billing, so if they can apply this to the phone package, they can easily apply it to broadband! But like has been said somewhere above, they are now saying they cannot as their STM model is a joke and a lot of people have been hit with STM without even using their connections, yes there is a fault with it, and this is virgin's way of denying all liability for problems with THEIR STM model! Its the typical VM BS of lying & even having the cheek to blame US the customers that put the phat bonuses in their pockets for sitting on their useless (often fat) backsides as they cook up even more ways to screw its PAYING loyal customers over yet again!
Point prooved, enough said! This will be my final word on the matter as nothing anyone can say will make me change my mind!
So you would be happy to pay for a version of itemised billing on your internet traffic? Or has VM stopped charging for that on the phone bill? Or do you expect that for nowt?
xspeedyx
16-09-2008, 13:59
Most likely for nowt like all customers expect
IF every router could do it (and I know mine cannot) and people transfer files between PC's by network, how do you think them files are transfered??? yep you got it, it goes through the router,!
Wrong you set it to monitor the WAN port only
watzizname
16-09-2008, 17:15
So if we the customers had access to such information, wouldn't that mean it'd finaly be possible (at last) to establish the true percentage of customers falling foul of stm on a daily basis?
Coincidence?? hmmm..
SteevieNiteHeat
16-09-2008, 18:57
So if we the customers had access to such information, wouldn't that mean it'd finaly be possible (at last) to establish the true percentage of customers falling foul of stm on a daily basis?
Coincidence?? hmmm..
Yes exactly my point :) :)
Florence
17-09-2008, 12:59
It suits VM to STM more than they should it saves them money, to supply the customer a way to see what is being used is one way the customer could prove they shouldn't be SMT'd. Will dig around but almost sure OFCOM did say if limitations were in place customers had to have the ability to see their usage supplied by the ISP.. But it was a long tinme ago I was in this discussion so will need to dig about. Mind one waay to perhaps make this happen would be if large numbers of VM customers complained to OFCOM about being SMT'd without the ISP allowing them access to usage and their own downloaded software said you hadn't used enough to be smt'd.
xspeedyx
17-09-2008, 13:01
VM can just say routers and 3rd party software can tell you how much you have used
Kaychsea
17-09-2008, 15:32
Yes exactly my point :) :)
You didn't answer my question I see.
VM can just say routers and 3rd party software can tell you how much you have used
So you keep regurgitating. However, in the context of Florence's post that response is too far off the mark. If the statment she made was correct about the ISP having to supply usage data, then the line of "go get the data yourself" frankly is not good enough.
CrowmanUK
17-09-2008, 19:44
The big problem is if your 3rd party software said you shouldnt be stm'd and you were and rang up virgin to complain they'd just turn around and tell you that your monitoring software must be in error. If they did show usage rates on a web interface there would be no uncertainty and we could put the old "stm'd out of hours" to bed once and for all. While we dont have access to the figures that VM are holding we can't argue a case that you have been wrongfully stm'd.
Kaychsea
18-09-2008, 11:23
The trouble with some people insisting that VM should provide usage data for comparison rather than getting it themselves is a bit daft. Do we really think the the people asking for it will actually believe VM if it doesn't say what they want? Then they will be back at the point of having to get the information themselves to prove VM wrong anyway.
However as it's a lot easier to just say "that isn't right" without being able to prove it, I shan't hold my breath.
it's one thing to say you've not hit the STM limits but its another thing to *proove* you're STMd. Getting under 5mb on a 20mb connection is not proof.
Ignitionnet
18-09-2008, 14:18
Almost exactly 5Mbit downstream and 192kbit upstream is usually pretty unequivocal though.
Getting under 5mb on a 20mb connection is not proof.
TBH when downloading from Giganews hitting 20Mbps for 20mins of so then all of a sudden a drop to a constant 5Mbps is more than enough proof imo. ;)
cook1984
24-09-2008, 20:15
The bottom line is that VM is all mouth and no trousers. They want to offer high speeds so they can get the big numbers on their adverts, but don't actually want to provide it.
Jonathan90
24-09-2008, 20:49
comcast have something in progress there working a web monitor for there 250gb cap a month which virgin should be also working on then there is no argument
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