Virginmedia Are Broadband Scammers [Archive]

raycable

11-08-2008, 11:53

Hi all just thought i would let everyone know my story! Three weeks ago decided to downgrade for 20mbit to what i was told by VM customer services would a 10mbit VM BB line. I thought the prices i was paying for VM-TV,Phone,BB was high and money is a little tight at the moment. So after downgrading i notice that my speed was 4mbit? and was being capped from the 12miday to 12midnight and not 4pm-9pm. Also folks and this is the main point i have found out that while VM says UNLIMITED BB you cant download unlimited at your BB speed they shunt you down to 990k or even less if your still using P2Papprx 14k DL 20k UL.

VM did all this without even telling me what they where doing Im still in the dark as to when my area will get the 10mbit free upgrade - liverpool have been told semptember but a friend of mine works for VM he asked and tech support said end of the year! I have been constantly lied to by VM CS, ill- mannered staff. I underastand that we need to employ internet capping but i dont see why i should be paying for something that says unlimited when infact it is not! The USA dont have this, VM should have say 500gb DL cap i could understand that but not the sly way theyre doing things now, and we inthe UK still pay top $ for typical ***** england country is just full of scams as there no real industry left here in this crap country. And there are no solid consumer laws to protect us from companies that do things like this.

Oftel are a joke when dealing with individual consumers, no nobody wants to know and its are own fault for letting these gits get away with it. If you want to leave VM without getting early end contract bill then tell VM CS that you have been mis-sold your package and bring up the point of BB packet shaping they wont like that. VM is seeking to throttle the net here inthe UK for its own services which you will pay alot of money for best way to hurt this company is to leave it as i have done sep 1st end contract going back to a constant 4mbit adsl2 for 12mths then onto 02 or BT 21century Network 2009 as for VM tv and phone they are dear and most of my content i watch through the net so im saving from a Ã‚Â£500/yr bill to Ã‚Â£170 and i get my old BT line back into the house for free.

PEOPLE TELL YOUR FRIEND FAMILY WHAT VIRGINMEDIA IS DOING YOU THINK YOUR GETTING A GOOD SERVICE YOUR NOT EXPENSIVE AND SLOW BB MY ARSE......................EX VM Customer - Liverpool

chickendippers

11-08-2008, 12:01

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html
and
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/existingcustomers/faster/schedule.html

WHISTLED

11-08-2008, 12:18

What an angry man

raycable

11-08-2008, 12:48

Hi im not angry at anyone in this forum but im angry at virginmedia and our country for letting this happen like iu said there are nolaws that protect you and me from companies doing this to you. Why should i get scammed like this and why do we in this country have the attitude of "oh i dont want to complain" sod that complain its your right i have already sent a letter to my local mp requesting where are tyhe laws to protect me the consumer...

nutellajunkie

11-08-2008, 13:50

fingers crossed your MP knows what you are on about then..

Rone

11-08-2008, 13:57

I dont think any of us like the stm, if they told you that you would be getting 10meg and did'nt, then yes, they misled you.
Either that or just by a fluke, you got someone who had no idea what what was really going on.

whydoIneedatech

11-08-2008, 13:57

Going back to BT then read this, as they are no different.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/07/bt_samknows_bandwidth_throttling/

grubbymitts

11-08-2008, 14:23

There's STM on Virgin? When did that happen?

Maggy

11-08-2008, 14:43

There's STM on Virgin? When did that happen?

Where have you been for the last 6 months?http://incognitas.ghotihosted.com/shock.jpg

grubbymitts

11-08-2008, 16:29

Where have I been? Somewhere losing the power of sarcasm, obviously. ;)

Hugh

11-08-2008, 16:30

Where have I been? Somewhere losing the power of sarcasm, obviously. ;)
You obviously need more iron(y) in your diet..... :D

Maggy

11-08-2008, 16:46

Where have I been? Somewhere losing the power of sarcasm, obviously. ;)

Then I suggest you wander through the forums especially the Virgin Media Broadband one in particular.I'm sure you will find the Abbreviation STM somewhere. ;) Several somewheres.

raycable

11-08-2008, 17:01

Yeah im getting a BT line for free from tiscali yes i know theyre capped but their time is 6pm-11pm and i can still download at the full 4mbit i can get onmy line not likethe capped 990k on VM fibre optic which by the way isnt fibre its a coax to your house and you share the fibre optic ubr.

I really wanted to go with 02 or be these are the best isp andi hope they stay that way 4mbit is enough for me and i would assure 8mbit is enough for most people. I just hope more of us leave VM never going back! Also folks read up on the NET NEAUTRALITY on youtube ref virgin you will get a better picture as to when they want to do with your BB

Hugh

11-08-2008, 22:49

Excuse me?

How can you download at the full 4Mb if they cap you between 6-11pm?

SMG

11-08-2008, 23:45

I agree Virgin do mislead customers. When I changed my package in, Feb / March this year, I was told I would have a 10 meg connection. Only after checking (4 meg) did I contact them to complain.

I was fobbed off with the usual "you must have misunderstood cos our operators are trained professionals etc".

However, as bad as their billing & customer services are, the service is quite consistent. For the money, its not bad. I have heard horrendous stories about ADSL. I am a heavy surfer / light downloader,

CountZer0

12-08-2008, 09:36

However, as bad as their billing & customer services are, the service is quite consistent. For the money, its not bad.

I think for the money the service should be bloody stellar! But it isn't.

chickendippers

12-08-2008, 10:42

I notice the OP has disabled reputation. Anyone smell a troll?

Sirius

12-08-2008, 13:14

I notice the OP has disabled reputation. Anyone smell a troll?

He went red in about an hour then turned the rep's off.

raycable

12-08-2008, 18:50

Kymmy

12-08-2008, 19:00

New thread merged with your old one as it's 99% the same

Toto

12-08-2008, 19:09

Hi all can someone please tell me if VM are blocking and P2P sites also I have a VM 20MBIT line i dl linux distro, free tv shows whatch demos etc. If im beong capped what will my dl ul speeds be on peak time and off peak times. I watch internet programmes and you can easily munch through 40gb/mth limit we are in the digital age hd content is 9-15gb!

Im all for FPU but wish virgin would say right you can DL say 400-600GB/mth and then thats yourt limit then your put on say a 2mbit dl speed or something like that. Rather that say its unlimited and its speed capped, Virgin please take note all your doing is killing your customer base!. For those of you and there are some i bet who DL 24/7 and run illegal dvd copying business well, you guys should be banned period. The point is virgin should be talking to its customers we and virgin should come up with a suitable figure that lets us use the internet. My current experience is that VM dont contact me when they make changes and screw things up Cmon VM make the internet usable dont kill it off.

I really can't understand the problem here, your all for FPU (sic) but then bleat over semantics?

It is not killing the customer base, it has actually improved my D/L speeds considerably in my area. My mate who lives in student land can't believe how much better his service has become since STM.

I've said this in the past, and I'm not afraid to say it again, I think STM overall does a pretty good job, and if it forces a few more pee takers off the network, then boo-bloody-hoo. :)

raycable

12-08-2008, 19:20

Yep but i still think that giving us 400-500gb then thats it is much better, also why do the usa no limits on the networks? and we do??

I still think they shouldve asked us first i have just been given a free upgrade to 20mbit to stay with them but whats the point of having this is i still cant DL my content. Again im in favour of a FUP but its has to be fair and at the moment its not.

I play games,xboxlive,linux etc the FPU should be 4-9pm thats it but oh no VM take the mike implementing a 27/7 FPU its not fair i dont have any figures i can work with to manage my access just go on what VM tells me?

Toto

12-08-2008, 19:31

I play games,xboxlive,linux etc the FPU should be 4-9pm thats it but oh no VM take the mike implementing a 27/7 FPU its not fair i dont have any figures i can work with to manage my access just go on what VM tells me?

How much bandwidth is your online gaming taking that is triggering STM all the time????

You've already been supplied a link to the STM limits, published (announced) by VM, so surely you can work it out?

dev

12-08-2008, 19:32

there are 27hours in a day? :o

also, got a link to these free tv shows and the free hd content that is 9-15gb?

Toto

12-08-2008, 19:49

Yep but i still think that giving us 400-500gb then thats it is much better

OK, so then, lets call 30 days a calender month, just for arguments sake. You're happy to have a monthly cap of 500Gb, that's about 16.6Gb per day for 30 days.....see where I am going with this?

The point is, if there was no STM, you could easily use up that cap in a few days on the 20Mb service, I really don't think you'd be happy then to be capped?

If you check the STM triggers for the 20Mb service, you will actually see its possible and very easy to have your 16.6Gb per day of data plus more should you need it. All it takes is a small amount of planning, perhaps some download management software, and Bobs you parents brother.

Also keep in mind that even if you trigger the limits, your online gaming will not suffer (you're downgraded to 5Mb), nor will streaming video you seem to like too.

I do understand why poeple don't like STM, but if we look at the real impact on our own service, certainly on the upper tier then it isn't all that bad.

I'm not so sure that the USA isn't capping or shapping, and I do know of one US ISP that is being taken to task over its current plan to introduce some surprisngly low limits on their network.

chickendippers

12-08-2008, 20:17

I'm pretty sure the 'unlimited' ADSL providers would have something to say if you were using 400-500Gb per month.

Kymmy

12-08-2008, 20:36

Yep, last three times I was on a UNLIMITED ADSL account I got throttled at 128Kb during 8am till 6pm for a whole month when I went past thier hidden 40Gb FUP limits :(

raycable

12-08-2008, 20:43

okay all i have dl today is a 700mb file thats it and my speed is 24kdl 17kul its beenthat way since 4pm-8:35pm+ (im thinking its going to go off at 9pm is that right and after that can i dl as much as i like?)

im going to have a read of the link but if you guys can tell what your experience is and what your doing to limit STM through management then i would appreciate your help.

I also think that im going to need a router that turns off the connection at the 4-9pm so i dont go over my dl limit and get capped

Thanks for your input

Yozzer

12-08-2008, 20:45

The first post in this thread by Raycable is actually correct in his major assertions, missed sadly by many of the contributers to this thread. The ability to complain via a proper process which should end up with customer satisfaction has been eroded, not just with VM, but with many other service providers. I have a rough justice type site, and get emails from all sorts of people about all sorts of problems, but the bottom line is always the same. The processes that should take you to a point of fair arbitration has been dismanteld, leaving people angry and frustrated. This includes other cable companies, not just VM, Gas and Electric suppliers, Legal services, Local Government Ombudsman, the list is endless. It enables companies and official bodies to now know that at the end of the day you have only two choices if you feel you have a valid complaint, walk away and try somewhere else, or eat humble pie and stay where you are, real action is rare unless it puts money in the coffers of those in high places.
Until we once again have proper avenues to persue complaints, with Obudsmen, our MP's, and the bodies that are supposed to monitor services, the situation will not get better. Anyone who has tried to use the higher level complaints processes outside of the big companies will know what I mean.
If you are happy, stay where you are, if you are not, check first you are not going from the frying pan into the fire, and if you think this post is waffle, just try phoning someone outside VM to complain if you feel you have been duped!

raycable

12-08-2008, 21:50

Thanks Yoz for the support i think there are many pro VM users here im shocked that there are all so happy! Would just like to say VM CS contacted mem today and asked why i was going I told it was due to very poor cs, vm lies and really sick of how i have been scammed as a internet user.

This chap was actually considerate and helpful in that he wanted specifics why i supplied. One instance when i contacted VM and got the "we record this call for training etc" blah blah but everytime i contacted VM techncial support they didnt hacve a clue as to where the call log was. Finally i recorded the telephone conversations with me and VM CS and support staff and when i told i was doing this so i had a record of the faults and query's to prove to them whats been said they cut me off! pronto.

I understand that as i didnt have there employee's permission then i was in breach of data protect! but where is VM request to me? and when i asked for transcriptions of the call they said we dont record all conversations which infact they do. Anyway back on speaking terms with them they have given me a free upgrade for 12mths to 20mbit due in part to all the hassle ive had with faults and outages etc "ALOT" fibre optic i think not.

So im going to do the following see if i can get a good service from them a second time round

1. No downloading 4-9pm just surf

2. Manage my internet better - any good utils out there what about wifi routers can this be done through my hardware

3. Monitor VM DL/UL outside of the 9-4pm not going to dl anything for a couple of days to see if this auto capping system is doing something it shouldnt be

VM is going to have to work hard to keep my custom 21 century digital network is out OCT 2009 in my area this will be open to 3rd party isp i.e O2,Be,SKY etc so the market is going to get tougher which means prices will fall as ISP compete. The uk BB market is almost at saturation so there little new ISP-BB business out there just wish the general public was a s informed as you lot here on the forum thanks...

Fatec

12-08-2008, 21:56

1. No downloading 4-9pm just surf

STM is 10am-3PM as well...

buggerlugs

14-08-2008, 01:17

I have been using this free software (http://www.paessler.com/prtg6) for a couple of weeks now to monitor all traffic on my router since i learned of VM capping bandwidth.

Its a pain to set up and is a bit flakey but i basically run it on my server 24/7 and it monitors VM limited zones.
when i reach 80% of the allowed cap it emails me, which i get on my main computer and i can then log into the server with remote desktop connection and halt my downloads and/or uploads til that time zone moves.

what I have also learned during this time is that VM dont give me 20mbit. All tests i conduct show it at between 15 and 17mbit with a 600k upload at best.

I've also seen my bandwidth drop down to 50% during the night for no apparent reason and then go back up in the morning.

when i have been capped it has been much more than shown on their charts - often to the point of 56k modem speeds and it gradulally builds up speed over several hours.

I dont belive they run a fair system as they describe and I will continue to suck as much bandwidth as possible - even if i dont want anything

Rewrew

14-08-2008, 12:14

I dont belive they run a fair system as they describe and I will continue to suck as much bandwidth as possible - even if i dont want anything

And that's a fair response to other subscribers is it?

buggerlugs

14-08-2008, 12:59

whats your point? Im using what i am paying for legally - in fact im not even using all of it as i stop at 80%

Maggy

14-08-2008, 13:15

Rewrew

14-08-2008, 13:33

whats your point? Im using what i am paying for legally - in fact im not even using all of it as i stop at 80%

I don't want to be involved in a flame war but I find the idea of consuming anything because you can, rather than because you have a need, is unhelpful to the rest of society. What would your opinion be of a neighbour who filled his swimming pool at such a rate that your water pressure became too low for your upstairs taps? To prevent such a problem the utility companies have fair usage policies that prevent you drawing water at too high a rate from the system. If you want more water then you need a business supply paid for at business rates. If you want your internet connection of business quality the answer is simple pay business rates for it but while you are on a domestic tariff consider the others that share your bandwidth and only consume what you genuinely need.

In other words "play nicely".

buggerlugs

14-08-2008, 13:34

ok here is where they dont give me 20mbit. Ive just tested on 4 sites and this is typical of any day/time

current speed - totally idle connection

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/08/13.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

Test from: http://www.broadband.co.uk/broadband-speed-test.jsp
Download speed : 13.6Mbps
Upload speed : 0.68Mbps

Test from: http://www.speedtest.d04.net/
1728 K/sec, 13.5 MBit

Test from the link on this forum:
Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:24:10 GMT

Test 1: 1024K took 568 ms = 1802.8 KB/sec, approx 14855 Kbps, 14.51 Mbps
Test 2: 1024K took 559 ms = 1831.8 KB/sec, approx 15094 Kbps, 14.74 Mbps
Test 3: 1024K took 553 ms = 1851.7 KB/sec, approx 15258 Kbps, 14.9 Mbps
Test 4: 2048K took 1156 ms = 1771.6 KB/sec, approx 14598 Kbps, 14.26 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 14951 Kbps, 14.6 Mbps

Here are 2 random image tests of my speed after being capped:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/08/14.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
and another
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/08/15.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

As for the speed drop during the night I cant actually provide proof of that as the software is currently only monitoring the 3 VM timezones and none of those are during the night - I have set up one monitor that works 24/7 now though

Sirius

14-08-2008, 13:35

I will continue to suck as much bandwidth as possible - even if i dont want anything

And it Numpty's like you that make them use STM :mad:

I am a heavy user, However i dont download for downloading's sake or to get at VM.

dev

14-08-2008, 13:36

wired or wireless?

buggerlugs

14-08-2008, 13:43

I don't want to be involved in a flame war but I find the idea of consuming anything because you can, rather than because you have a need, is unhelpful to the rest of society. What would your opinion be of a neighbour who filled his swimming pool at such a rate that your water pressure became too low for your upstairs taps? To prevent such a problem the utility companies have fair usage policies that prevent you drawing water at too high a rate from the system. If you want more water then you need a business supply paid for at business rates. If you want your internet connection of business quality the answer is simple pay business rates for it but while you are on a domestic tariff consider the others that share your bandwidth and only consume what you genuinely need.

In other words "play nicely".

Again I'm not sure of your point as you have answered your own question.

I have no responsibilty to you or any other network user. It is VM's draconian throttlling that is the answer for you.

I pay for 20mbit "unlimited use" because that is what i want to use.
VM choose to restrict my 20mbit use quite a lot "to help other networkwork users" - thats your consideration for other people, they have dealt with it.

What I am left with I choose to use as much as i can - that is after they have taken you into consideration. So its not even an issue for you is it.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

wired or wireless?

wired

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:42 ----------

And it Numpty's like you that make them use STM :mad:

I am a heavy user, However i dont download for downloading's sake or to get at VM.

Please dont revert to name calling.

You totally miss the point - if it wasnt for their STM i wouldnt need to watch my bandwidth 24/7 and feel that I'm being robbed in the first place.

dev

14-08-2008, 13:46

You totally miss the point - if it wasnt for their STM i wouldnt need to watch my bandwidth 24/7 and feel that I'm being robbed in the first place.

i'd say you're complaining you can't use all the bandwidth you "pay" for and the reason is because there are other people doing what you're doing and that is using their connection with no consideration for others

buggerlugs

14-08-2008, 13:55

i'd say you're complaining you can't use all the bandwidth you "pay" for and the reason is because there are other people doing what you're doing and that is using their connection with no consideration for others

Ive been paying Ã‚Â£25 pcm for a 10mbit connection for months and months and was only told 2 weeks ago they havent even been giving me 5mbit. Have all you people been using bandwidth ive been paying for and not getting?

I would also like to point out again as some people cant understand it - I am using my bandwidth legitimately and within VM restrictions. so why are you all whining and sending nasty messages via karma to me?

Should i (and everyone else) be restricted even further? Maybe customers should only be allowed 1 hour of bandwidth a week?

Rewrew

14-08-2008, 14:59

Again I'm not sure of your point as you have answered your own question.

So you are on a business tariff then? My mistake, I thought you were on XL which is a domestic rate. One difference between a domestic and a business tariff is the contention ratio. A domestic user is typically 50:1 while a business user is 10:1 or better. In other words you have to share your connection with a larger group.

If I understand your earlier postings you seem to be saying that you are downloading content simply because you can but you are justifying it by saying you are still within 80% of your limits. Where is the logic in that? Perhaps you don't realise that such selfish actions are likely backfire not only on yourself but also impact on more altruistic subscribers.

Don't get me wrong. I fully believe in getting what I have paid for and will shout vehemently when I feel I have been poorly treated by any company, large or small (don't get me started on British Gas!) but in this instance I don't see the injustice.

buggerlugs

14-08-2008, 16:05

Okay this is your 3rd post here (which seems a lot for someone whos opening line was "I don't want to be involved in a flame war but...") What is your point really? Injustice?

I've never said theres any injustice. I simply shared a link to some software that I was using to monitor bandwidth.
I went on to point out a few observations (low overall speed, extreme capped speeds etc) - I'm not crying they they are giving me a sub-standard service or their capping is far more extreme than they advertise. I've monitored the fact and I accept how they work and ive posted that here.

I summerised that I would therefore use what they give me after their capping and considerations for other network users to its maximum.

Sadly a load of VM STM fanbois who think its incredibly bad that I use the remaining dribble of my connection to its maximum have jumped on me and tried to rip me apart.

Ultimately lifes too short for such drama.

Kymmy

14-08-2008, 16:17

We've already had one person infracted for thier behaviour in this thread and if the posts carry on like this there will be more.

So please everyone take a step back, think about what you're typing and then rereead it before hitting the post button

peanut

14-08-2008, 16:19

Again I'm not sure of your point as you have answered your own question.

I have no responsibilty to you or any other network user. It is VM's draconian throttlling that is the answer for you.

I pay for 20mbit "unlimited use" because that is what i want to use.
VM choose to restrict my 20mbit use quite a lot "to help other networkwork users" - thats your consideration for other people, they have dealt with it.

What I am left with I choose to use as much as i can - that is after they have taken you into consideration. So its not even an issue for you is it.

You totally miss the point - if it wasnt for their STM i wouldnt need to watch my bandwidth 24/7 and feel that I'm being robbed in the first place.

:clap: Well said, I can't disagree with any of that myself.

Rone

14-08-2008, 17:14

Not a bad point at all. ;)

Zero Excuses

14-08-2008, 23:45

I have been capped around the clock recently. Yes -

I was getting 2 megs around the clock. I have been on the phone to them a few times where they told me I was capped.

OK, I have been using the broadband to view live streaming regularly but I never knew it would drop all the way down to 2 meg.

I was advised by tech support to not use it for a morning so you won't be in the top 5%. Seems like sound advice considering sometimes I just let it run but 2 megs? I was quite shocked...

Mad Ad

15-08-2008, 02:41

And it Numpty's like you that make them use STM :mad:

I am a heavy user, However i dont download for downloading's sake or to get at VM.

Its not his fault, its VM helping themselves to resell our peak time bandwidth 4 times rather than any need to help others.

If they had adequate infrastructure to let us all download when we liked they wouldnt need to 'ensure a better service' using awful mechanisms such as STM, however its themselves they are looking out for first, and then using the fact that peoples service will degrade if they resell it as blame for them doing it.

Anti customer propaganda to point the finger at anyone but themselves, thats all it is (and its working, sadly, because its got people like youself blaming him for downloading what he wants, rather than blaming VM 100%)

stairpotato

15-08-2008, 06:33

If they had adequate infrastructure to let us all download when we liked they wouldnt need to 'ensure a better service' using awful mechanisms such as STM

...totally agree and surely this is the point. Having read the OP's posts - he does make *some* valid points.

STM is entirely a problem of Virgin's own making. Not only is it entirely unnecessary, it's also badly implemented.

Virgin choose to advertise an unlimited service
Virgin choose the bandwidth bandings that they wish to retail - no one has forced the current tiering structure on them. They could, for example, have stayed with a 2,4,10 meg structure. By increasing the tiers - they increase demand - and the need for STM.
Virgin implement STM without any system in place for notifying the customer that they have exceeded the limits, thereby negating any behavioural change effects that the STM might have encouraged.
Virgin does not give customers access to any system that would allow them to monitor the bandwidth they have used.

Frankly I'm surprised that no consumer organisation has chosen to challenge Virgin through the courts on this. Frankly to have an arbitrary usage limit dictated by Virgin, without providing customers with a way of measuring their usage against the limit is so nonsensical I can't imagine it would ever stand up in court!

Sirius

15-08-2008, 10:14

Anti customer propaganda to point the finger at anyone but themselves, that's all it is (and its working, sadly, because its got people like yourself blaming him for downloading what he wants, rather than blaming VM 100%)

No i said that because he said this
and I will continue to suck as much bandwidth as possible - even if i don't want anything

That's why or had you conveniently missed that bit ?????

If you are going to have a go at least do your homework first

Let me make a point here. I am a heavy downloader and i don't like STM at all, What i hate more are those that download 24/7 because they can. It has been stated by buggerlugs that he will download as much as he can and even if he does not want it or needs he will do that.

Now that is just taking the **** and gives VM every reason they need to put STM on there network. If numpty's did not download everything just because they can and then admit they did not need to and are doing it just to make a point, Then how can we try to get VM to remove the STM, We cannot while numpty's do that.

VM are about to start 50 meg according to certain webforums, They have already said they are going to STM it, Wonder if they did that because there are those that download just to say they can ???????

peanut

15-08-2008, 10:31

snip....

The way I see it, is that he can do whatever he likes with his connection, regardless if we wants to waste his own time and effort downloading rubbish for the hell of it. I seriously don't think he would to be honest, but who's business is it anyway.

As for your point, you're still blaming the users / customers for VM's shortfalls. As you say you're a heavy downloader who doesn't like STM, do you now download outside the STM hours? If you do then you could also be partly responsible for the extra STM during the day and maybe the night if it comes to it (if it starts).

Sirius

15-08-2008, 10:40

The way I see it, is that he can do whatever he likes with his connection, regardless if we wants to waste his own time and effort downloading rubbish for the hell of it. I seriously don't think he would to be honest, but who's business is it anyway.

As for your point, you're still blaming the users / customers for VM's shortfalls. As you say you're a heavy downloader who doesn't like STM, do you now download outside the STM hours? If you do then you could also be partly responsible for the extra STM during the day and maybe the night if it comes to it (if it starts).

No i download when i need to. I changed my habits when VM started there STM. Before then i only downloaded overnight, I only download what i need and watch, I never download for the hell of it.

Kymmy

15-08-2008, 10:43

How long now has STM been about? It's nothing new and I'm sure that if some on here truly felt the way that they've conveyed in thier posts that they simple wouldn't still be subscribed to VM (there are always ways to get out of a contract) and would be on another forum whining away at how thier ADSL is rubbish and that they've been throttled by BT, Orange, Demon...etc.... for going over FUP limits in a month...

If you've got ADSL2 in your area then go for it, do mega downloads and prove to those companies that they should really bring in STM/FUP's as well...

Ignitionnet

15-08-2008, 10:49

If VM have a problem with people who consume extreme amounts of bandwidth even with STM they can always show them the door. I'm sure they know who said people are. It's VM's choice. If they choose to punish the many through STM in order to account for the actions of a few so that they can continue to advertise unlimited downloads that is their choice.

No customer or group of customers that is alledgedly so small is making VM do anything. Telewest have been operating STM for 3 years just previously on a very targetted group of heavy users, it was with the ntl:Telewest merger and the 20Mbit upgrade that STM became widely used because the capacity was not there to support it without the system in place.

You cannot blame a small subset of customers for the actions of a multi-billion pound company. VM chose the STM solution to the issue and continue to choose it rather than dealing with extreme users individually.

Kymmy - Be both don't care and don't monitor bandwidth usage at this time. I know of people doing 4 figures GB a month because they can and they are left alone. Be probably had a far higher average bandwidth usage per customer than VM and its' only with going mass market through O2 that it's coming down.

moaningmags

15-08-2008, 11:01

STM was first rolled out in May 2007. With 4pm - Midnight being monitored for upload and download and was revised and changed in December 2007.

Ignitionnet

15-08-2008, 11:25

STM was first rolled out in May 2007. With 4pm - Midnight being monitored for upload and download and was revised and changed in December 2007.

Nationwide STM was first rolled out 'officially' in May 2007. Telewest had been applying on a per-user basis to extremely heavy users since 2005 at peak times that I'm aware of.

moaningmags

15-08-2008, 11:50

Nationwide STM was first rolled out 'officially' in May 2007. Telewest had been applying on a per-user basis to extremely heavy users since 2005 at peak times that I'm aware of.

Telewest always had a fair usage policy but I'd never seen it applied until May 2007.
In 2005 I was a heavy downloader and never noticed restrictions.

But it is possible.

Ignitionnet

15-08-2008, 11:52

It was done in congested areas to relieve capacity issues. If you were in an area which didn't have capacity issues they wouldn't have bothered.

Beyond that I'm not sure how it was applied, however it's more than possible or even probable :)

moaningmags

15-08-2008, 11:54

I'm on an Uddingston ubr and there weren't any congestion issues until the NTL/Telewest merge. Probably why I never noticed any restrictions and also the 1st UBR to get 20meg in Scotland.

Hugh

15-08-2008, 12:07

I have an unmetered water supply.

Having read this thread, I think I will leave all my taps on 24x7 - after all, I pay for it. ;)

peanut

15-08-2008, 12:18

I have an unmetered water supply.

Having read this thread, I think I will leave all my taps on 24x7 - after all, I pay for it. ;)

Here comes the analogies. :rolleyes:

So if your water supplier told you that you can use as much as you like but you can't have a bath in during the day, you'd accept that then? Your analogy doesn't hold much water really does it.

But for wastage you could leave the taps on, that would be up to you, but you wouldn't would you. Do you go round telling people off when they use hoses or wash their cars?

Hugh

15-08-2008, 12:23

It wasn't an analogy - a poster on this thread has said he does this.

Sirius

15-08-2008, 12:31

It wasn't an analogy - a poster on this thread has said he does this.

Don't go bringing facts in to this thread you know it upsets those that omit them. :)

Here is the fact that is not in dispute

I don't believe they run a fair system as they describe and I will continue to suck as much bandwidth as possible - even if i dont want anything

That to me is just plain idiotic

Is there anyone here that does not see the problem that is caused by downloading just because you can and then not using that download.

Fatec

15-08-2008, 12:35

That to me is just plain idiotic

Yes and no, its people that have done that behind the reason why the STM limits will rise/change in the future, the more people download, the higher the STM threshold becomes.

Idiotic if it was truely unlimited though.

Exorcist74

15-08-2008, 15:23

Is there Actual proof that heavy downloaders are/were the main reason for STM, or is the reason, get more money for less resources the real truth.
ie pay for 20mb you get 5mb :) .

Ignitionnet

15-08-2008, 17:09

I'm more interested in how people are comparing a naturally limited resource, water, with a resource purely limited by investment, bandwidth :)

Much as I hate to bring inconvenient facts into a discussion like that water supply is naturally limited while bandwidth to a cable node is solely dependent on Virgin Media splitting nodes or sending multiple download streams to a node.

You can't compare bandwidth with water. It's hardly a 'fact'. You get more bandwidth with a couple of line cards, try doing that with water.

Virgin advertise their cable services as unlimited, water companies most certainly don't advertise as being unlimited nor do they suggest ways to use more water to make the most of your service. A ridiculous comparison. If Virgin's service is not unlmited and they cannot handle customers using it in that manner they should not advertise it as such, simple as that.

Call me an idiot by all means but downloading at full pelt for 20 minutes out of 5 hours hardly seems like abuse to me.

Kymmy

15-08-2008, 17:15

Water is limited by investment as long as the investment is in a desalinization plant ;)

A couple more line cards?? Fine if you have the cabling IN and OUT to utilize them

Ignitionnet

15-08-2008, 17:27

Water is limited by investment as long as the investment is in a desalinization plant ;)

A couple more line cards?? Fine if you have the cabling IN and OUT to utilize them

A couple of coax cables going into the FPM to supply additional downstreams. Oh the pain :)

Splitting nodes is a new fibre or some DWDM kit at node. Again hardly comparable to a desalination plant.

Kymmy

15-08-2008, 17:32

A couple of coax cables going into the FPM to supply additional downstreams. Oh the pain :)

Splitting nodes is a new fibre or some DWDM kit at node. Again hardly comparable to a desalination plant.

YAWN.....

A cable has two ends, one just needs connecting to thier own equipement, the other which costs the most connects to the nearest internet backbone (that's if that's got the spare bandwidth)...

Not as simple as installing a single piece of equipmtn.

As for desalinization plants well that was just an anti-analogy plant ;)

Ignitionnet

15-08-2008, 17:34

Totally wrong. Splitting a node is nothing at all to do with connecting to the internet backbone. You're aware of the 3 layers of a network, access, transport and core right? Internet access sits firmly at core, uBRs at access. No wires go between uBRs and the rest of the internet they go over gigabit ethernet to the transport network to end up on 10 gigabit links heading towards the internet.

Yawn all you want you're totally wrong. In this age of 10Gbit peerings if a 38Mbit/s downstream causes issues that's the least of a company's concerns. You've a fundamental lack of understanding of what a modern ISP network is about if you think that the largest cost of a network is connecting to the nearest internet backbone. The cost of uBR bandwidth is several factors higher than the few pounds per Mbit/s that VM will pay in transit.

Kymmy

15-08-2008, 17:51

At last a reasonable explanation and it only took one yawn...Well done ;)

In other words if someones got something to say then please explain it instead of leaving it half understood :p:

stairpotato

15-08-2008, 17:53

Water is limited by investment as long as the investment is in a desalinization plant ;)

This maybe true....

.....but my waterboard doesnt keep upping the speed that water exits my tap, yet reduce the total volume of water i'm allowed to have.....

....it also doesnt advertise my water as unlimited...

Kymmy

15-08-2008, 17:56

This maybe true....

.....but my waterboard doesnt keep upping the speed that water exits my tap, yet reduce the total volume of water i'm allowed to have.....

....it also doesnt advertise my water as unlimited...

Instead at time of low supply it totally cuts off the mains, gives you a water tank in the middle of the road which fills up the bottle at about one tenth of the flow of the mains.

Throttling taken to it's limits I'd say!!!

stairpotato

15-08-2008, 18:00

Instead at time of low supply it totally cuts off the mains, gives you a water tank in the middle of the road which fills up the bottle at about one tenth of the flow of the mains.

Throttling taken to it's limits I'd say!!!

Well when the internet starts running dry I will forgive Virgin for STM.

Until then - I'll agree with the OP that STM is a scam, designed to enable Virgin to continue to sell higher bandwidth rates than it could otherwise reliably supply.

Hugh

15-08-2008, 18:03

Well when the internet starts running dry I will forgive Virgin for STM.

Until then - I'll agree with the OP that STM is a scam, designed to enable Virgin to continue to sell higher bandwidth rates than it could otherwise reliably supply.

I think you will find that the internet is running dry, as BT are demonstrating linky (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/63/33637190-bt-now-caps-everyone.html) ;)

btw, I agree that ISPs shouldn't sell what they can't deliver, or that they should show the limits that are in force in a prominent way - but marketing doesn't work that way unfortunately; they (all ISPs) just highlight the benefits, not the "features".

dev

15-08-2008, 18:49

I think you will find that the internet is running dry, as BT are demonstrating linky (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/63/33637190-bt-now-caps-everyone.html) ;)

btw, I agree that ISPs shouldn't sell what they can't deliver, or that they should show the limits that are in force in a prominent way - but marketing doesn't work that way unfortunately; they (all ISPs) just highlight the benefits, not the "features".

not selling what they can't deliver would be a 1:1 contention ratio right? problem is, the cost for a 20mbit dedicated feed would be slightly more than the current price

Hugh

15-08-2008, 20:12

Which is why I put the caveat in, re limits. ;)

I work in IT/Comms - I know the business prices for dedicated lines.:D

Maggy

15-08-2008, 21:50

There's an echo in here.....:)

Hugh

15-08-2008, 21:57

Where?

Where?

;)

stairpotato

15-08-2008, 22:02

not selling what they can't deliver would be a 1:1 contention ratio right?

erm no.

virgin perhaps could reliably deliver a 10meg, 4meg, 2 meg service, but they clearly can't deliver 20,10,4 - or they wouldnt need stm.

Mad Ad

16-08-2008, 05:33

No i said that because he said this

That's why or had you conveniently missed that bit ?????

If you are going to have a go at least do your homework first

Let me make a point here. I am a heavy downloader and i don't like STM at all, What i hate more are those that download 24/7 because they can. It has been stated by buggerlugs that he will download as much as he can and even if he does not want it or needs he will do that.

Now that is just taking the **** and gives VM every reason they need to put STM on there network. If numpty's did not download everything just because they can and then admit they did not need to and are doing it just to make a point, Then how can we try to get VM to remove the STM, We cannot while numpty's do that.

VM are about to start 50 meg according to certain webforums, They have already said they are going to STM it, Wonder if they did that because there are those that download just to say they can ???????

No you are wrong, I didnt miss that, downloading rubbish he doesnt use is still downloading what he wants, it just doesn't fit in with your outlook so you'd rather suggest I missed it, so you can repeat what you already said.

And its a fair point, I just dont agree. The reason they put STM on was to resell our peak time bandwidth to 3 other people, without having to spend 1p on hardware capacity.

Its all about the peaktime numbers at the time of day thats been traditionally oversubscribed since the introduction of 0800 dialup. Its nothing new, just VM has chosen to do it in an anti customer way, keeping it quiet from all advertising and pointing the finger for its introduction at a subset of users, rather than themselves for choosing that route to increase the precious peaktime bandwidth.

Nothing to do with one user with a gripe. Let him carry on and put the blame to VM for creating that kind of attitude in someone in the first place.

Rep Rule:Members are not permitted to discuss reps received or given in threads, reputation is a private matter, not for public discussion.

Maggy

16-08-2008, 07:40

Ignitionnet

16-08-2008, 08:34

I think you will find that the internet is running dry, as BT are demonstrating linky (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/63/33637190-bt-now-caps-everyone.html) ;)

Nothing to do with the internet that's just down to the price BT Retail pay BT Wholesale for bandwidth on the BT Central Plus product. No shortage of bandwidth on the actual internet, just aggregating bandwidth from thousands of exchanges and presenting it to the internet isn't cheap :)

---------- Post added at 08:34 ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 ----------

not selling what they can't deliver would be a 1:1 contention ratio right? problem is, the cost for a 20mbit dedicated feed would be slightly more than the current price

There's a lot of difference between an actual 1:1 ratio and an apparent one. You just need to ensure that the pipes never saturate at peak times, how much they can be overbooked before this happens is arbitrary but certainly won't be a 1:1 ratio.

Rewrew

18-08-2008, 11:59

I think the point that I was trying to make has been lost, maybe because I didn't make it that well. There is a also tendency to assume that because I complained about one aspect of the OP's behaviour that I disagreed with all the points he was making.

That VM should deliver what they offer is not in dispute. Perhaps VM could be clearer what "unlimited" really means. Maybe their traffic management techniques are unsubtle. In the main most users get the service they expect and are not affected by traffic management. It is the heavy users that tend to complain on here. Again I do not have an issue with heavy users per se. If you like to download 5Gb Linux distributions day after day then you have that right (but I also feel that most heavy downloaders are sufficiently savvy to schedule such downloads at times that don't inconvenience others - indeed probably the same times that they are not actively using their PCs).

My concern was the unchallenged statement that it is reasonable to consume an item (bandwidth in this case) that is not wanted. How can it ever be right to deliberately consume an item in limited supply that you neither need or want simply for the sake of it? It will have an impact on the rest of the users of that item and there will be no benefit to the person consuming for the sake of it.

And in case "limited supply" is challenged I refer to the infrastructure of the net (at all scales) which is always going to be limited in capacity to some extent albeit that technology continues to increase the capacity and demand as time progresses.

SteevieNiteHeat

18-08-2008, 19:16

Actually the water analogy doesn't stand up if only for the fact that water is not a utility...it's an absolute necessity for life where as painful as it might appear we do not NEED the internet to maintain life and throttling it won't kill anyone.

:)
SNIP

Sorry to be pedantic and all that, but you are wrong, water IS a utility, think about when people say 'utility bills' which include gas, electricity AND water :)

:angel: sorry I don wanna get into the arguement, just wanted to point out something :angel:

iFrankie

18-08-2008, 19:20

I love virgin media :)

joglynne

18-08-2008, 19:22

......https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/08/26.gif

CountZer0

19-08-2008, 09:13

SNIP

Sorry to be pedantic and all that, but you are wrong, water IS a utility, think about when people say 'utility bills' which include gas, electricity AND water :)

:angel: sorry I don wanna get into the arguement, just wanted to point out something :angel:

You're right but the water company are not allowed to turn off your water or stop removing your sewage.

Hugh

19-08-2008, 11:20

You're right but the water company are not allowed to turn off your water or stop removing your sewage.
Unless you are on a business premises; from the Water Industry Act 1999, the following premises are exempt from disconnection -
"private dwelling houses, caravans, houseboats, houses in multiple occupation and sheltered accommodation (where these are someone's main home) and children's homes, residential care homes, prisons and detention centres, schools, premises used for children's daycare, institutions of further and higher education, hospitals, nursing homes, GPs' and dentists' surgeries (including surgeries set up as primary care pilot schemes) and premises occupied by the emergency services."

But the other utiilities are still allowed to disconnect you (electricity and gas).