View Full Version : Disconnection for abuse
Thunderballs
07-08-2008, 23:47
I have been a customer with Telewest/Virgin for over 10 years.
Until today I had their VIP package of V+ on full pacage wit SKY Sports and Movies, Unlimited Landline Calls and 20mg Service.
In July I got a letter from their Internet Security Team in Newport.
"We are writing to let you know that we've noticed emails being sent from your internet connection that can be deemed offensive.
Sending offensive emails is not allowed under the terms and conditions of your contract. It's important that these emails stop - otherwise we may have to suspend or cancel your Internet Service.
If you have any questions, just leave us a voicemail message on 01633 710 142 - If you leave your name and number we'll give you a call back, within one working day.
Yours sincerely,
[EDIT:Name removed]
Virgin Media"
Attached was a traceroute for an email one line which include the mispelt "F" word and asshole.
The email originated in a hotmail account and was sent to an gmail account - so it hadnt been sent from my virgin email address and indeed the hotmail account wasnt mine/in my name.
On receipt I had complained to customer services but was directed to the number of the voicemail given in the letter.
10 or so days later my intenet connection failed and after the usual rigmarole of checking it was nothing to do with a problem my side - rang tech support.
To cut a long story short, after many calls over a period of hours and reroutes to different departments it was ascertained a suspension had been placed on my account by th "Internet Security Team" and I was told to call their voicemail and leave a message.
I hit the roof !
They cut off my service so I can't work for an afternoon and then after hours of conversations trying to get them to work out why they have cut off my service I am told to ring a voiccemail.
I have to say I am well aware of customers that have been sent similar letters for downloading "copyrighted" materials but having the msnoop on emails alledgedly being sent from an internet connection and playing Mary Whitehouse was a new one on me - nevermind blaming me as the guy that paid their bill.
Eventually with some considerable digging I got the name of a [EDIT: Name removed]who undoubtedly needs some customer service training becasue he was furious i had made so much noise that I had gotten through to his department circumventing the voicemail by insisting customer services, technical support and "Customer Retention" variusly got me through to a real live person not a voicemail.
After a fraut conversation it was assertained that they were indeed kicking off about the mispelt F word in this email sent from a hotmail account to a third party organisation and the word asshole.
The only justification he had for sending me the letter and subsequently cutting me off was that someone had reported the email as offensive and he tried to have me believe it was his professional obligation to warn me as the account holder becasue I was contravening the T+Cs.
There was no suggestion that this email was part of a spam/hate/bullying campaign etc it was a one off.
During the conversation he said they had sent me another letter, which I had honestly not seen and this was to do with an offensive message left on the voicemail given in the letter and it was a combination of the above email and the message that was why my account was suspended.
He couldnt play me the voicemail but he did say that "[EDIT:Name Removed] was grossely offended by it" and I again reinterated I wanted my Internet service reinstating. At no time did I swear at him or loose my temper but by God after 3 plus hours of this i might well have done.
The conversation ended wit him demanding I made an apology for leaving the message and a commitment that I would not use their service to send potentially offensive emails (t oanyone) neither of which "offenses" I had personally "committed". When i pojt blank refused he saifd hed review the "case" in the morning and go from there. I was boiling.
After I put down the call - I di go and look at some of my "junk mail" and indeed found an unopened letter from virgin.
This letter was the one [EDIT:Name Removed] had been referring to. It read
"due to the highly offensive message that was left by yourself on our voice mail "can you please tell [EDIT:Name Removed]to go F""K himself" following our communication with you, we now require a full apology and retraction from you.
If we do not receive it we will suspend your Internet account without notice. We may then disconnect you if the apology is not forthcoming. In addition to the written apology we require a written commitment from you that you will in future abide by our Terms and Conditions.
You have 7 days to send the communication by email/fax or in writin. If we receive any more offensive messages from you, or if you abuse any other parties via our services we will remove all services from you.
If you then switch services to another provider and continue t oabuse that service we will also arrange for those services to be suspended &/or disconnected.
Yours sincerely
[EDIT:Name removed]
Virgin Media"
Needless to say I wasnt reconnected the next morning and although my name wasnt on this apparent voicemail or the email the guy who spoke to me "recognised my voice " funny becasue it was the first time id spoken to him and again demanded an apology or I was going to remain suspended.
My acount is now suspended - no BBand still, phone cut off , TV down to a minimum and several hours of more conversations have resulted in me being told the only course of action I have is call the voicemail !
I have taken the other one - Im off.
Edited to remove staff names.Please remember to edit any further communications that you post here.
<snip>
Needless to say I wasnt reconnected the next morning and although my name wasnt on this apparent voicemail or the email the guy who spoke to me "recognised my voice " funny becasue it was the first time id spoken to him and again demanded an apology or I was going to remain suspended.
My acount is now suspended - no BBand still, phone cut off , TV down to a minimum and several hours of more conversations have resulted in me being told the only course of action I have is call the voicemail !
I have taken the other one - Im off.
I
LOL, you do know that voicemails can be kept right?
So, following a letter sent to you about abuse of the VM service, they received a voicemail advising the sender of the letter to Eff Off, and you are surprised you were suspended:shocked:. OK, you can claim it isn't you by all means, but who opened your letter and decided it would be funny to place your account in further jeapordy by impersinating you in a voicemail? C'mon sir, do you think people are really that niaive.
You seem to assume that because the email that was sent from your account wasn't a Virgin email address that it couldn't have come from you? You need to understand how IP tagging in email headers works.
WHISTLED
08-08-2008, 00:09
Im with Toto - Doent take a great deal of reading between the lines does it!?
account wasnt mine/in my name.
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 02:53
I appreciate the reading betqween the lines and there is not much to be said other than the email wasnt from me and it was sent to a third party nothing to do with Virgin - i know it was sent from my connection but what has that got to do with Virgin ? The fact of the matter is that an individual complaind to Virgin - they cut me off. It is like your postman knocking on your door and saying i opened a letter sent from this house and it includes some naughty words in it - if you the house owner dont stop we wont deliver any of your mail. They were not able to play the voicemail back to me and told me it didnt include my name. But this issue aside - I and they were left in the ridiculous position of suspending my Internet service until I as the account holder made an apology for the "abuse" in the email sent from my connection to a third party and the voicemail message that had apparently been left on their voicemail that didnt include my name, whilst continuing to pay them over a hundred pounds a month for the TV and Phone Service and the suspended Internet.
LOL, you do know that voicemails can be kept right?
So, following a letter sent to you about abuse of the VM service, they received a voicemail advising the sender of the letter to Eff Off, and you are surprised you were suspended:shocked:. OK, you can claim it isn't you by all means, but who opened your letter and decided it would be funny to place your account in further jeapordy by impersinating you in a voicemail? C'mon sir, do you think people are really that niaive.
You seem to assume that because the email that was sent from your account wasn't a Virgin email address that it couldn't have come from you? You need to understand how IP tagging in email headers works.
I agree with you.
grubbymitts
08-08-2008, 07:32
Who else calls BS on the whole thing? Good trolling Thunderballs, but really, regardless of terms and conditions, VM aren't going to start disconnecting people for swearing in emails either from their own servers or sent from Hotmail to a third party. Well done. I suggest 4chan/b/ for your next /i/
I appreciate the reading betqween the lines and there is not much to be said other than the email wasnt from me and it was sent to a third party nothing to do with Virgin - i know it was sent from my connection but what has that got to do with Virgin ? The fact of the matter is that an individual complaind to Virgin - they cut me off. It is like your postman knocking on your door and saying i opened a letter sent from this house and it includes some naughty words in it - if you the house owner dont stop we wont deliver any of your mail. They were not able to play the voicemail back to me and told me it didnt include my name. But this issue aside - I and they were left in the ridiculous position of suspending my Internet service until I as the account holder made an apology for the "abuse" in the email sent from my connection to a third party and the voicemail message that had apparently been left on their voicemail that didnt include my name, whilst continuing to pay them over a hundred pounds a month for the TV and Phone Service and the suspended Internet.
Hmmmm, the letter about the email implies that if you didn't stop sending those kinds of emails, your account would be suspended or cancelled, simply that.
If nothing further happened in terms of those kinds of emails being sent, then your account would remain untouched, or at least that's what you could imply from the first letter. However, this "ridiculous position" you claim that you and VM were in seems to be wholly down to you. An offensive email was sent, you were warned, then somebody other than you as you claim followed up the offensive email with an offensive voicemail message BEFORE your account was suspended. I wonder what any normal person handling those chain of events would think?
It appears you had an opportunity to rectify the situation by apologising and go away and lick your wounds for a while. I only hope the other option you took was worth it. Good luck with your new service provider.
spiderplant
08-08-2008, 08:53
i know it was sent from my connection but what has that got to do with Virgin ?
You, as the account holder, are responsible for what is sent on your service, regardless of who sent it. This is from the Terms & Conditions you agreed to when you took the service:
D Using our services
1. You are responsible for the way the services are used. You must not use the services to do any of the following acts or allow anyone else to use the services to do such acts:
1. Send a message or communication that is offensive, abusive, defamatory (damages someone's reputation), obscene, menacing or illegal;
<snip>
If we believe that you are using the services in any of these ways, we are entitled to reduce, suspend and/or terminate any or all of the services without giving you notice.
ps. Why is this in the TV section?
Graham M
08-08-2008, 09:07
Good point *moved*
I appreciate the reading betqween the lines and there is not much to be said other than the email wasnt from me and it was sent to a third party nothing to do with Virgin - i know it was sent from my connection but what has that got to do with Virgin ? The fact of the matter is that an individual complaind to Virgin - they cut me off. It is like your postman knocking on your door and saying i opened a letter sent from this house and it includes some naughty words in it - if you the house owner dont stop we wont deliver any of your mail. They were not able to play the voicemail back to me and told me it didnt include my name. But this issue aside - I and they were left in the ridiculous position of suspending my Internet service until I as the account holder made an apology for the "abuse" in the email sent from my connection to a third party and the voicemail message that had apparently been left on their voicemail that didnt include my name, whilst continuing to pay them over a hundred pounds a month for the TV and Phone Service and the suspended Internet.
You *are* held reponsible (both by Virgin, and the Authorities if any legal action is involved) for anything sent from your connection. This is one reason why it is important to secure any wireless networks you may have.
Oh, and I am fairly certain it is actually an offence to send offensive mail.
Lol. Interesting to say the least.
MovedGoalPosts
08-08-2008, 12:33
Whenever I've phoned Virgin Media with an account or service related issue, I've been asked to verify that I am who I am by confirming my account password. I assume that you have kept your password secure?
Saaf_laandon_mo
08-08-2008, 12:36
So if I log onto hotmail using my virgin broadband connection and write an offensive email, littered with swear words, I could have my broadband cut off? Is that right? I'm asking because I'm curious, not because I send offensive mails.
MovedGoalPosts
08-08-2008, 12:44
So if I log onto hotmail using my virgin broadband connection and write an offensive email, littered with swear words, I could have my broadband cut off? Is that right? I'm asking because I'm curious, not because I send offensive mails.
Yes, if the recipient complains, and hotmail are logging the IP used to connect and in turn a complaint is then made to Virgin Media.
Well done to virginmedia, other ISP's don't give two hoots who abuses their AUP. Even if it wasn't you why didn't you offer to find out who it was and to have a word with them?
Well done to virginmedia, other ISP's don't give two hoots who abuses their AUP. Even if it wasn't you why didn't you offer to find out who it was and to have a word with them?
It's about time the mobile phone companies starting doing this as well to stop bullying via text etc....
So if I log onto hotmail using my virgin broadband connection and write an offensive email, littered with swear words, I could have my broadband cut off? Is that right? I'm asking because I'm curious, not because I send offensive mails.
cough, cough - Honest, officer.... ;)
Yes, if the recipient complains, and hotmail are logging the IP used to connect and in turn a complaint is then made to Virgin Media.
They do:
X-ORIGINATING-IP, in the bottom of the email header.
Hmm i can smell a rat here ;) or a fish, something fishy is going on ;)
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 18:33
Whatever the point is this email was 6 words long. The email address of the recipient was a department/organisation not an individual. There was no catalougue of emails that could be taken as a campaign against someone (or at least they are not showing them to me and they surely would have if they were going to send one and this was the basis of their "case") and if that was the case they should be involving the police or at least advising the third party to do so.
Morover UK libel law which presumably is at least part of the reasoning behind Virgin thinking this type of thing is any of their busines is fairly clear.
.
You can't easily Libel/Defame someone or an organisation whose reputation is damaged. Harrassment laws are not easily applied to one incident (email) http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html and http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/defamation-in-cyberspace.html .
It seems whoever received it complained - Virgin looked it up and then without actually bothering to contact me as the account holder, sent me a letter judging it to be abuse. Without talking to the sender how would Virgin know if the complainant had a case.
Whatever your stance on this they should at the very least have "investigated" it by contacting me as the Virgin account holder before finding their own customers guilty for an email presumably they have absolutely no idea was about/concerned or the contect in which it was sent. Law aside Virgin obviously maintain the right to terminate a contract
If you are one of these people that hear the word "abuse" and imagine the worse you have to acknowledge that it is a much maligned term. The widest definitions include thisngs like "if it is offensive to the recipient" etc and on that definition anything any of us say or do can be taken as abuse - or dare I say it anything Virgin transmit into millions of homes on TV could be too. Abuse has to be taken in context and you would expoect an ISP would understand that and at the very least seek clarification as to the context from both parties before attempting to come to a decison<p>
The situation has today got worse becasue today I received a letter dated a day before the postmark and dated the day my Internet Service was disconnected
It makes no reference to the conversations I had with the Internet Security Team manager/supervisor which happened at the end of the day this letter is dated. The person I spoke to did not mention this letter in conversations with me and it has been sent by the person I spoke to yesterday that told me "he knew it was me on the voicemail" even though no name was left and he wouldnt play it back to me and wouldnt answer any questions as to why he thought it was appropriate to make allegations against me becasue I was the account holder. He made no mention of the letter either - that is signed by him - which if it was written when it says it was you would have expected him to do
Basically the letter covers their backsides to ignore all the concerns I raised with them when i actually got to speak to them to try and find out what the issue was about.<p>
The letter says
"We wrote to you on the 24th July 2008 to let you know that offensive emails had been sent from your internet connection (note its emails again when the only email traceroute they sent me contains the word a...hole) We also wrote to you on the 28th July regarding an offensive voicemail you left
(I havent left them any voicemails becasue I refused to deal with a machine after they sent me the original letter and subsequently when they suspended my Internet - and the guy whose name appears on this recent latter is the guy who specifically told me the voicemail doesnt have my name on it and couldnt/wouldnt play it back to me) As we haven't received an apology from you we have had to temporarily suspend your Internet account"
Was no mention of this letter on my account records from 14.30 of the day of the date on this letter which is probaly part of the reason no one in Tech support, Customer Service was aware of it or made aware of it after calls to the department late in the day
Basically it goes on to say I now have to sign an enclosed form and "include a letter of apology" "if we don't hear from you in six weeks, well have to permanently close your email account - and we'd much rather it didn't come to that"
Now just to explain the significance of that. Yesterday ie the day after this latest letter is dated but the same day it is post marked. I sought clarification of my contractual obligations and what Virgin proposed to do give nthe ywere suspending part of the package of services I buy from them. I also raised the issue of my email specifically. My stance with Customer services was if you are going to suspend one of my services fine i am not paying for any of my services from now on and I will seek relief in so far as I can becasue you havent given me 30 days notice, you have presented me with no evidence I have breached the terms and conditions of the contract and you are denying me service whilst asking me to continue paying for it
The attached "form" is made up as far as I can see in that it is bespoke and if I were to sign it it would ammount to an admission I had breached their terms and conditions.
Today I have been referred back to Internet Security becasue all my services remain disconnected - my phone is not just receive incoming calls but totally disconected - which people who have had their outgoing calls suspended will understand is not usual"
So in my mind theye are just tying to cover their backsides an continue to refuse/talk about specific allegations and evidence whilst while trying to effectively blackmail me into admitting I have done something wrong to justify their behaviour
The whole thing throws up some horrendous gaps in their processes from this apparently all powerful team having virtually no customer facing skills, actual knowledge of the law and most importantly the policy they seem to adopting towards their own customers when a third party totally unconnected to virgin accuses someone of "abuse".
Customer Services and every other department refer back to them and are subserviant to them.
Andrewcrawford23
08-08-2008, 18:45
1st. You are the account holder and the ip relates to you so at the end of the day you are responsible for whatever happens on your account, if you have wireless it could have been don that way.
But saying that.... virgin attuide to you i think you are in legal position not to pay and have the right to hear the voicemail that was left.
If i was you i would seek legal advice as they might start trying to get you on abuse behaviour (i am not judging you and i am not sure you did or did not) i am just going on the fact they say they have evidance.
You might want to do a look into Data Procection Act, Freedom Information Act
mcgeezer
08-08-2008, 18:46
This happened to me when I was with Demon Internet and scanning with the Back Orifice, I got disconnected and had to write a letter of apology along with saying I would'nt do it again... basically, I was a naughty boy and I got caught as has happened to you here.
Enjoy your new ISP.
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 19:11
cough, cough - Honest, officer.... ;)
No if someone else uses you connection and sends one email containing a misspelt swear word and an insulting word you can be cut off and aslked to admit you broke their terms and conditions.
---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------
This happened to me when I was with Demon Internet and scanning with the Back Orifice, I got disconnected and had to write a letter of apology along with saying I would'nt do it again... basically, I was a naughty boy and I got caught as has happened to you here.
Enjoy your new ISP.
I am not a naughty boy - im in my late 30s. They can do what they like but they can't expect people to just accept their behaviour when it comes to breaching contract wit htheir customers and alledging some potential marginal libel/harrassment has taken place against a third party.
---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------
1st. You are the account holder and the ip relates to you so at the end of the day you are responsible for whatever happens on your account, if you have wireless it could have been don that way.
But saying that.... virgin attuide to you i think you are in legal position not to pay and have the right to hear the voicemail that was left.
If i was you i would seek legal advice as they might start trying to get you on abuse behaviour (i am not judging you and i am not sure you did or did not) i am just going on the fact they say they have evidance.
You might want to do a look into Data Procection Act, Freedom Information Act
Good response my friend.
Precisely it could have been done via wireless which is why they are incredibly dumb to be sending these letters for one email containing the word "asshole"
Beleive me they dont have any evidence against me and if this email was one of many they would most certainly have told me by now to shut me up and/or told me the police were involved. I have asked becasue if something serious is going on I would understand their interest - it isnt - its a simple case of one short email an alledged voicemail and ineffective policies and processes being implemented by people largely untrained in dealing with customers.
That is 99% not the case becasue all they want me to do at the moment is admit I have breached their T&C's and I wont do it again - thus getting them off the hook for their shoddy "inestigation" and treatment of a valuable perviously loyal customer.
Until yesterday I couldnt spend any more money with Virgin unless I took a top Mobile package and rang international / mobile numbers all day long and rented more than a few movies on demand a month.
At the end of the day I am essentailly going to persue them legally in as efficient manner as I can that will cause maximum effort on their par. Virgin like many organisations have deliberately designed their customer facing organisations to fob off customers as efficeintly as they can and they are powerless to do anything outside a very tight remit.
watzizname
08-08-2008, 19:13
If your name wasn't anywhere to be found on the voicemail, can we at least assume they have verified (to your satisfaction) it came from your number?
And if so, do you know who might have done the dirty deed on your behalf.. & why aren't you kicking the living **** out of them?
MovedGoalPosts
08-08-2008, 19:22
No if someone else uses you connection and sends one email containing a misspelt swear word and an insulting word you can be cut off and aslked to admit you broke their terms and conditions.
But it is you who is responsible under the terms and conditions for how your connection is used.
I am not a naughty boy - im in my late 30s. They can do what they like but they can't expect people to just accept their behaviour when it comes to breaching contract wit htheir customers and alledging some potential marginal libel/harrassment has taken place against a third party.
Why does age mean that you can't do no wrong :confused:
The IP of the original email was logged. It shows it was your connection being used.
Precisely it could have been done via wireless which is why they are incredibly dumb to be sending these letters for one email containing the word "asshole"
If you are using wireless it's your responsibility to ensure it was secured. It's still not Virgin Media's fault if it was insecure and thus the email was sent.
At the end of the day. If you had been the recipient of this email, reported it to the ISP through which it was sent, do you then sit back and expect the ISP to ignore it, or do nothing about it? Why should it matter if it was one email or 100? Why should it matter if it's personal, or could be read by many? Congrats to Virgin Media for actually getting off their backsides and following up the complaint.
Precisely it could have been done via wireless which is why they are incredibly dumb to be sending these letters for one email containing the word "asshole"
The initial letter or email you claim to have received warned you, the threat of disconnection according to what you posted was only IF the abuse continued. From that you would have ample opportunity to investigate the cause of the problem and rectify it if it indeed was a wireless router issue, however you appear to have decided it would be better to maintain your hard man image and resort to offensive language via voicemail (you're not fooling most people here with "the other guy" excuse).
Believe me they dont have any evidence against meThe IP address is ample enough evidence for any network. How about copying the email to this forum and see if anyone agrees that VM's warning was harsh?
and if this email was one of many they would most certainly have told me by now to shut me up and/or told me the police were involved.They did warn you, and you or somebody else (you claim) responded in an offensive way.
I have asked becasue if something serious is going on I would understand their interest - it isnt - its a simple case of one short email an alledged voicemail and ineffective policies and processes being implemented by people largely untrained in dealing with customers.Innefective? You're no longer a VM customer abusing other internet users.
That is 99% not the case becasue all they want me to do at the moment is admit I have breached their T&C's and I wont do it again - thus getting them off the hook for their shoddy "inestigation" and treatment of a valuable perviously loyal customer.They also want you to apologise for your comments to a staff member, how long do you think you would have a bank account if you told the counter staff to Eff Off!?
WHISTLED
08-08-2008, 19:36
take them to court For what exactly?
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 19:37
But it is you who is responsible under the terms and conditions for how your connection is used.
Why does age mean that you can't do no wrong :confused:
The IP of the original email was logged. It shows it was your connection being used.
If you are using wireless it's your responsibility to ensure it was secured. It's still not Virgin Media's fault if it was insecure and thus the email was sent.
At the end of the day. If you had been the recipient of this email, reported it to the ISP through which it was sent, do you then sit back and expect the ISP to ignore it, or do nothing about it? Why should it matter if it was one email or 100? Why should it matter if it's personal, or could be read by many? Congrats to Virgin Media for actually getting off their backsides and following up the complaint.
you are absolutely correct on most of what you say but Viorgin are my ISP not my or anyone elses moral guardian.
The point is they havent followed up on a complaint - they have simply prejudged me as the account holder for an extremely trivial matter involving my internet service.
If they are to be "congratulated" for loosing a valuable customer over the word "asshole" in an an email and you consider that a good use of thier time in this moral crusade you seem to want them to persue fine - you are entitled to your opinion.
You might want to do a look into Data Procection Act, Freedom Information Act
Oh for crying-out-loud Andrew! :)
The guy gets a warning email for an offence of Virgin's T&C's, and the VM team responsible get a voicemail from someone claiming to be the guy, and to the person sending him the warning he tells them EFF OFF!
How did they assume it was him, because he must have quoted some sort of reference to himself, possibly a reference number? I suspect the real issue here is that he, the O/P, is not giving us the whle picture and garneshing the truth to solicit some sort of sympathy....surely you can see that?
FIA only applies to government and public bodies, he'd have more luck with a DPA request....but I doubt it.
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 19:54
Oh for crying-out-loud Andrew! :)
The guy gets a warning email for an offence of Virgin's T&C's, and the VM team responsible get a voicemail from someone claiming to be the guy, and to the person sending him the warning he tells them EFF OFF!
How did they assume it was him, because he must have quoted some sort of reference to himself, possibly a reference number? I suspect the real issue here is that he, the O/P, is not giving us the whle picture and garneshing the truth to solicit some sort of sympathy....surely you can see that?
FIA only applies to government and public bodies, he'd have more luck with a DPA request....but I doubt it.
You work for Virgin ?
As said before if they have a voicemail I am yet to hear it. If there is a reference number on it they havent told me that but its practically irrelevant. It a voicemail they use to fob off customers and hide behind when they have made aqusations against them and either have or are threatening to cut them off. I would imagine that voicemail is heaving with unhappy customers.
Not only that if you are ever in the situation of having to deal with this team you will find that they are substantially invisible to all the Customer facing organisations in Virgin - Customer Services, Technical Support and Customer Retentions have all had to ask me for the number.none of the actual letter they have sent to me appear in their notes - but abbreviated notes do.
Their letters hold me specifically responsible for the email and requitre an admisson and apology for breaching contract becasue of the email.
whydoIneedatech
08-08-2008, 19:58
you are absolutely correct on most of what you say but Viorgin are my ISP not my or anyone elses moral guardian.
The point is they havent followed up on a complaint - they have simply prejudged me as the account holder for an extremely trivial matter involving my internet service.
If they are to be "congratulated" for loosing a valuable customer over the word "asshole" in an an email and you consider that a good use of thier time in this moral crusade you seem to want them to persue fine - you are entitled to your opinion.
You have breached your contract and the terms and conditions laid out in the links below.
Acceptable Use Policy
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html
Terms and Conditions - On Cable
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
You signed a contract so therefore you accepted the above.
Impz2002
08-08-2008, 20:11
It a voicemail they use to fob off customers and hide behind when they have made aqusations against them and either have or are threatening to cut them off. I would imagine that voicemail is heaving with unhappy customers.
Your acting as if VM are some underhand organisation actively seeking to disconnect their customers. Look at it from their point of view. the circumstantial evidence is quite strong !
Impz
Quality thread, I love the trolls in this Forum!
Oh yeah that was the other thread, that guy was saying he had 50Mb line... you cant make this stuff up, pure comedy
*Wonders about prank calling VM*
jreynolds
08-08-2008, 20:16
Okay, obviously as it's in the T&Cs that you are responsible for how your internet connection is used then there really isn't any escaping that - whether you're running an insecure wireless network or not. It's there in black and white.
However, a lot of people on this forum have stated how they feel it unfair that someone can have a lawsuit brought against them for downloading illegal material even when it's very possible it was the next door neighbour using your connection without your knowledge.
You can't just pick and choose when it's fair and when it's not that you are solely responsible for your connection. I'm don't mean to point any fingers here! It's just that the general feeling on the board seems to be you shouldn't be sued for illegal downloading when there is not definite proof you are the one who has done it. The same should apply for any emails sent surely?
The Hitman
08-08-2008, 20:20
No Comment ;)
chuzzlemonkey
08-08-2008, 20:22
If i was using your computer and told you to **** off...wouldn't you kick me off the computer?
Same principle...
Their letters hold me specifically responsible for the email and requitre an admisson and apology for breaching contract becasue of the email.
And yet in your original post you said:
"due to the highly offensive message that was left by yourself on our voice mail "can you please tell [EDIT:Name Removed]to go F""K himself" following our communication with you, we now require a full apology and retraction from you.
You are held responsible as the account holder, something you seem to want to ignore given the times you've been reminded of that here.
All the assumptions I am making is based on your original post, but correct me if I am wrong.
As I see it you were warned for an offensive email, with a threat of further action if you continued. Whethr that was right or wrong can be debated till the cows come home, and frankly I couldn't care less.
Someone, not you apparently,called VM, pretended to be you, said they were so-and-so and that the edited person can go "f... himself". Now OK I may be assuming wrongly that they also gave some clue as to who's account this voice was connected too, but it seems too much of a coincidence?
Apparently, some days later you found your services suspended, and after a contracted "discussion" with that team in VM you opened a piece of junk mail from Virgin explaining why you had been suspended, I bet in part was for the offensive voicemail. I am not sure from your post if it was for further abuse, or this mysterious impersinator telling VM staff to go forth etc.
Are those the correct chain of events, or have I completely fudged your O/P?
Andrewcrawford23
08-08-2008, 21:15
Oh for crying-out-loud Andrew! :)
The guy gets a warning email for an offence of Virgin's T&C's, and the VM team responsible get a voicemail from someone claiming to be the guy, and to the person sending him the warning he tells them EFF OFF!
How did they assume it was him, because he must have quoted some sort of reference to himself, possibly a reference number? I suspect the real issue here is that he, the O/P, is not giving us the whle picture and garneshing the truth to solicit some sort of sympathy....surely you can see that?
FIA only applies to government and public bodies, he'd have more luck with a DPA request....but I doubt it.
either i have misread his lastest reply that virgin where being threaten to him or i am being incredible dum
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 22:09
And yet in your original post you said:
You are held responsible as the account holder, something you seem to want to ignore given the times you've been reminded of that here.
All the assumptions I am making is based on your original post, but correct me if I am wrong.
As I see it you were warned for an offensive email, with a threat of further action if you continued. Whethr that was right or wrong can be debated till the cows come home, and frankly I couldn't care less.
Someone, not you apparently,called VM, pretended to be you, said they were so-and-so and that the edited person can go "f... himself". Now OK I may be assuming wrongly that they also gave some clue as to who's account this voice was connected too, but it seems too much of a coincidence?
Apparently, some days later you found your services suspended, and after a contracted "discussion" with that team in VM you opened a piece of junk mail from Virgin explaining why you had been suspended, I bet in part was for the offensive voicemail. I am not sure from your post if it was for further abuse, or this mysterious impersinator telling VM staff to go forth etc.
Are those the correct chain of events, or have I completely fudged your O/P?
Thats a fairly good summary except the quotes are from their letters to me.
I didnt leave a VM and they have specifically told me no name was left on the VM and they have refused/dont have the VM to play to me.
There is only one email in question here and on its own there is no way shape or form that it represents a genuine legal risk to Virgin no matter who sent it.
As it is not, as far as I can tell, addressed to an individual but a company email address and it does not include the name of an individual or a group of people - it is just a sentence - I dont see how any individual could say it was directed at them.
If it isnt addressed to and doesnt include the name of a person the only cause Virgin would have to have any interest in this is if an individual claimed it was addressed to them. in which case a quick read of it would show that it isnt addressed to anyone personally. If it isnt addressed to anyone personally then the only remotely possible legal angle would be that that organisation it was addressed to claimed it to be libelous/defamatory.
Since it effectively says "F off you Asshole" it isnt defamatory or libelous towards a comapny becasue it it isnt public and or "hurting" the company's reputation and ability to trade.
So on its own as a one off, it is really a non issue as far as the law is concerned and anyone proporting to be a professional in this area should know that.
In effect Virgin having "investigated" are either not aware of that becasue the person dealing wit hit is not suffiiciently knowledgeable of the law, or are aware of this and have deemed it appropriate to threaten me as the account holder becasue "sending offensive emails" is not allowed under the terms and conditions of your contract.
You cant "offend" a company becasue a company although a legal entity is not living so it is impossible to "offend" it. They should have said "emails containing offensive words to ..." which of course they wouldnt becasue there is no law I am aware of that specifically prevents emailing or sending "offensive" words it is only the effect of those words that the law is concerned with (AFAIK)
Since it isnt actually breaking any law (as above AFAIK) their interest in it can only be moralistic from the persepctive of - someone has deemed this offensive and reported it to us or its been picked up by us - and so we are going to enforce our T&Cs in a lazy way and go have a pop at our customers.
Whilst their original letter to me as the account holder does not say I personally sent the email, in subsequent letters they say
"If we receive any more offensive messages from you, or you abuse any other other parties via our services we will remove all services from you.
If you then switch services to another provider and continue to abuse that service we will arrange for those services to be suspended &/or disconnected"
---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------
If i was using your computer and told you to **** off...wouldn't you kick me off the computer?
Same principle...
I havent told anyone involved with this to F off.
Your point is however well made. It is precisely that apparant attitude of Virgin that is extremely annoying.
I am a customer not just "using their" service. I like every other of their customers is paying for a service not paying for a nanny or supposed to be "grateful" to Virgin becasue they have allowed me to pay for their services and they have made specific allegations against me.
Aside from some uneforceable terms in their contract and T&Cs for example the bits that say they can decide to terminate your services at any time and for any reason and they are not liable for any losses their customers might suffer as a result, they have no grounds for this.
whydoIneedatech
08-08-2008, 22:25
You have breached your contract and the terms and conditions laid out in the links below.
Acceptable Use Policy
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html
Terms and Conditions - On Cable
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
You signed a contract so therefore you accepted the above.
Have you clicked on the links above and read them, especially the Acceptable Use Policy, as you have signed your name in acceptance of this and it has legal standings in a court of law.
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 22:41
Your acting as if VM are some underhand organisation actively seeking to disconnect their customers. Look at it from their point of view. the circumstantial evidence is quite strong !
Impz
Your apparently acting as though they are infallable.
Your point is akin to someone saying "you wouldnt be in court charged with murder if you are not guilty of Murder becasue the police and the crown prosecution service are not in the business of trying to convict innocent people"
They are an ISP not the law. In so far as they need to protect themselves and their reputation if they are going to accuse thier customers of breaching their contracts they really need more than "circumstantial evidence" wouldnt you say ?
---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------
Have you clicked on the links above and read them, especially the Acceptable Use Policy, as you have signed your name in acceptance of this and it has legal standings in a court of law.
Yes.
"legal standings" I assume you to mean having Legal Legitimacy"
Having legal legitimacy and being Lawful are too different things.
Take for example the 30 day notice you will be required to give them if you wish to terminate your services.
Note they have a clause that requires them also to give 30 days notice.
Now note the terms that say they can terminate your services immediately for any reason they deem fit
How would you resolve that ?
whydoIneedatech
08-08-2008, 22:46
Your apparently acting as though they are infallable.
Your point is akin to someone saying "you wouldnt be in court charged with murder if you are not guilty of Murder becasue the police and the crown prosecution service are not in the business of trying to convict innocent people"
They are an ISP not the law. In so far as they need to protect themselves and their reputation if they are going to accuse thier customers of breaching their contracts they really need more than "circumstantial evidence" wouldnt you say ?
---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------
Yes.
"legal standings" I assume you to mean having Legal Legitimacy"
Having legal legitimacy and being Lawful are too different things.
Take for example the 30 day notice you will be required to give them if you wish to terminate your services.
Note they have a clause that requires them also to give 30 days notice.
Now note the terms that say they can terminate your services immediately for any reason they deem fit
How would you resolve that ?
They have your signature and they have a powerful legal team behind them, that is how all these big companies deal with people.
They use their legal muscle to win.
Thunderballs
08-08-2008, 22:53
They have your signature and they have a powerful legal team behind them, that is how all these big companies deal with people.
They use their legal muscle to win.
And if you were the CEO of Virgin Media would you be wanting to get those expensive lawyers involved in a case involving the word "asshole" sent in an email to a company address.
They have already lost becasue I am no longer paying them the best part of 1500 quid a year and they have gained nothing in return.
whydoIneedatech
08-08-2008, 22:55
And if you were the CEO of Virgin Media would you be wanting to get those expensive lawyers involved in a case involving the word "asshole" sent in an email to a company address.
They have already lost becasue I am no longer paying them the best part of 1500 quid a year and they have gained nothing in return.
Good for you, standing your ground.
No my intention was purely to point out the ways that the Acceptable Use Policy covered this problem.
Thunderballs
09-08-2008, 02:58
Dear MR A******e
I am receipt of your letter dated 6th August 2008 (significantly postmarked 7th August) 2008 and letters from ****** dated 24th July 2008 and 28th July 2008 respectively.
These letters variously accuse me of having breached the Terms and Conditions of my Contract with Virgin Media which I wholeheartedly dispute.
All my Virgin Media services were disconnected on the 7th of August some time in the late afternoon and following suspension of my Internet service early in the afternoon of 6th August.
Within your department I have specifically had conversations with ************** on 6th of August and I believe yourself on the 7th of August in relation to these matters.
I have not had it explained to me over the telephone, nor do the letters from your department make it clear, EXACTLY which clauses of the Terms and Conditions of my contract with Virgin Media I have been accused of breaching.
As I am sure you appreciate it is a comprehensive document and some clarification on the matter might have been helpful as specifics are far easier to address than generalities and Contract Law is often complex.
There are three specific issues here that your letters mention.
One relating to an isolated email and the reason for your departments letter of 24th July. One relating to a “highly offensive message” you say was left on your voice mail by me in your letter of the 28th July and one alleging abuses of other suppliers services also mentioned in your letter of 28th of July.
It is alleged that an email sent from my Internet connection addressed to **************** that to quote your letter of 24th July, “can be deemed offensive”.
The email is “sent from” my Internet connection and does not bear my name and was not sent by me or anyone that I know
The email has been addressed to ************** and does not refer to nor is it addressed to a specific person.
The person who sent the email has chosen not to address it to a person or persons
The email address it has been sent to does not specifically look like an individuals email address.
To whom could this be “deemed offensive” given that it is not addressed to a specific person nor does it mention the name of a specific person, and it is not possible to “offend” an inanimate object.
Why are Virgin Media holding me responsible for an email I haven’t personally sent to someone who’s chosen to open an email that is not addressed to a specific person and does not include the name of a specific person and then apparently chosen to deem the contents “offensive”?
If the email has alternatively intercepted by yourselves and “deemed offensive”, on what grounds do you do so and for what purpose? Any number of programs Virgin Media transmits and you solicit people to watch and listen to “could be deemed offensive”
Accusing me of breeching your Terms and Conditions on the basis of this isolated email is absurd.
It hasn’t been written by me or anyone I know
It is not addressed to a person
It doesn’t address a person
It doesn’t refer to an individual
You say it is an isolated email not one of many
It has been sent to one email address not many
It hasn’t been sent via Virgin Media’s email service
It isn’t libelous
You don’t say it contains copyrighted material, viruses or other malicious attachments
It isn’t obviously “Spam”
It clearly is not generic
It isn’t threatening future action
It isn’t coercing someone to commit crime
etc etc.
The second alleged breach of your Terms and Conditions is that I left an “offensive voicemail” as outlined in your letter of 28th July.
I did not find and open that letter until the evening of the 6th August after it came to light in a discussion with Mr. Bull****it. The letter was not referred to by staff within your Customer Service, Technical Support and other front line teams I had spoken to earlier on the 6th before speaking to Mr. Toss*******.
I have not left this message and in conversations with your department no one has been able or willing to play it to me.
I have been specifically told by Mr. W^^^^^^ and I believe yourself, it does not mention my name. Moreover your letter of 28th of July specifically quotes the message – and does not quote my name as being in the message.
To my knowledge I have had no dealings with your department prior to 6th July. I had a telephone conversation with Mr. A******e on 6th of August and I believe yourself on 7th August but I have never spoken to either of you before or left any messages for you before.
Your letters are quite specific. Your letter of 28th of July includes “due to the highly offensive message left by yourself on our voice mail” and your letter of 6th August (postmarked 7th of August) includes “..regarding an offensive voicemail you left..”
In light of your insistence on these matters, I have specifically requested that I wanted all my services as per my contract with you and not a pick and mix of landline telephony and cable TV with a suspended Internet connection.
My contract is for all of those services not some of them and I am not invoiced for them separately.
It appears your department is insisting I send a “letter of apology” , to complete a form you included in your letter of 6th August which requires an admission of contractual breaches by me “..I understand any further breaches of the terms and conditions….”
Moreover your letter of 28th of July outlines some specific consequences of not complying with your wishes and accuses me of currently abusing other provider’s services that I might switch to at a later date and some level of cross supplier compliance or obligation to do what your department wants.
“If you then switch services to another provider and continue to abuse that service we will also arrange for those services to be suspended &/or disconnected.
How that is possible I am somewhat confused about, but the threat is quite unjustifiable and intimidating to say the least.
I have suffered significant financial loss due to the time it has taken me to try and resolve this issue using the means afforded to me by your company,and the inability to work from home.
As it stands at the moment and despite your letter of the 6th of August and several lengthy conversations with Customer Services, Technical Support , Customer Retentions Credit Services, I have all of my services disconnected. Additionally, your letter of the 6th August says email would be closed in 6 weeks but it is also now inaccessible to me.
In conclusion, I reiterate I believe I have done no wrong and have not breached the terms of my contract.
Aside from the offer in the closing paragraph of your letter to me on the of 6th August
“If you have any questions, just leave us a voicemail message on 01633 710 142”
I have been given no other course of action to address this matter than to write.
Yours sincerely,
Mr G F&&& yourself
Thunderballs
09-08-2008, 07:36
Little bit more here.
Harrassment http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/pub/har/part1.html
Criminal harassment, which includes “stalking,” is a crime. While many crimes are defined by conduct that results in a very clear outcome (for example, murder), criminal harassment generally consists of repeated conduct that is carried out over a period of time and that causes victims to reasonably fear for their safety but does not necessarily result in physical injury. It may be a precursor to subsequent violent acts.
Criminal harassment can be conducted through the use of a computer system, including the Internet.10 (http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/pub/har/part1.html#10) Although this type of conduct is described in various ways, not all such conduct falls within Canada’s definition of criminal harassment. For example, “cyber-stalking” or “on-line harassment” is often used to refer to (1) direct communication through e-mail; (2) Internet harassment, where the offender publishes offensive or threatening information about the victim on the Internet; and (3) unauthorized use, control or sabotage of the victim’s computer.11 (http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/pub/har/part1.html#11) In some cyber-stalking situations, criminal harassment charges may be appropriate; however, depending on the activity involved, charges under sections 342.1 (unauthorized use of a computer), 342.2 (possession of device to obtain computer service) and subsection 430(1.1) (mischief in relation to data) should also be considered. Activities that can be considered cyber-stalking can include delivering threatening or harassing messages through one or more of the following:
e-mail;
chat rooms;
message boards;
newsgroups; and
forums.
Other variations of cyber-stalking include the following:
sending inappropriate electronic greeting cards;
posting personal advertisements in the victim’s name;
creating Web sites that contain threatening or harassing messages or that contain provocative or pornographic photographs, most of which have been altered;
sending viruses to the victim’s computer;
using spy-ware to track Web site visits or record keystrokes the victim makes; and
sending harassing messages to the victim’s employers, co-workers, students, teachers, customers, friends, families or churches or sending harassing messages forged in the victim’s name to others.12 (http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fv-vf/pub/har/part1.html#12)
So by this definiton one email is not harrassment. Harrassment has to be a patttern of behaviour.
ISP Obligations
http://www.quackwatch.com/12Web/yahoo.html
"it would be unreasonable for an ISP to police every message or to act on isolated complaints, persistent abusive behavior deserves quick and effective attention"
Virgin Media are members of the ISPA - Internet Service Providers Association
This is their Code of Practice.
http://www.ispa.org.uk/about_us/page_16.html#Decency
".5 Fair Trading
2.5.1 In their dealings with consumers, other businesses and each other, Members must act fairly and reasonably at all times. " Interesting one that one for people being capped/threatened etc.
2.6.2 Members must include in their contracts with Customers a provision requiring Customers to comply with the UK law in using any of the relevant Member's Services.
So if we are using their services we must comply with UK law. This must apply conversely ie the yalso have to comply with UK Law so far as their UK customers are concerned, so they cant hold you responsible for a potential breach of another countries laws proactively. ie if when using their services you are complying with UK law they cant try to enforce the law of another country on the provison of services to you.
3.2 Pricing Information
3.2.1 Members shall ensure that charges for Services are clearly stated in relevant Promotional Material. Members shall make clear whether any such charges quoted are inclusive or exclusive of VAT. Where additional charges, for example on-line charges, are payable, such chargesshall be stated.
3.2.2 Members shall use reasonable endeavours to ensure that pricing information relating to charges for Services is easy to understand and prestented in an accurate, up to date, legible, and suitably prominent way - not related to this but interesting.
and the interesting part in the above rethe ISPA complaints procedure. Might be sending a little complaint there way if I dont get serioious consideration of my situation.
jellybaby
09-08-2008, 08:07
At the end of the day its your connection, thus your responsability - full stop.
You had the chance to make everything alright, but you decided not to. Nothing anyone else can do, and quite frankly, with the attitiude you have, no one would want to help you.
Get over it and move on.
Hi there Thunderballs.
It would seem to me that you are solving nothing in bringing this problem here..I don't see that anyone here can resolve this matter for you no matter how spirited a defence you make.
You need to be talking directly to Virgin Media I'm afraid.Sorry.:shrug:
LincsGuy2005
09-08-2008, 11:27
You need to be talking directly to Virgin Media I'm afraid.
Or, if your case is as strong as you would have us believe, to OFCOM.
chuzzlemonkey
09-08-2008, 11:52
Or, if your case is as strong as you would have us believe, to OFCOM.
Depends...if you're going to tell them to **** off also then i wouldn't bother ;)
Hi there Thunderballs.
It would seem to me that you are solving nothing in bringing this problem here..I don't see that anyone here can resolve this matter for you no matter how spirited a defence you make.
You need to be talking directly to Virgin Media I'm afraid.Sorry.:shrug:
Agreed, all he appears to have done is confirm that VM took the right action, as the O/P's last but one post seems to support.
Very sad I must say, very sad indeed.
chuzzlemonkey
09-08-2008, 12:29
Have a look around the CF...i think he just likes to be controversial! :td:
I just think he is very unhappy with VM (whether for good/bad reasons, only he will know), and he is "spreading the love" ;)
Really brings a warm glow to my heart when someone is taken offline that quite obviously doesn't deserve the use of their connection. Grow up, learn how to treat people with respect and stop acting like a spolit child when you don't hear what you want to hear. People get disconnected for abuse every day, most will accept this and deal with it in a mature manner, a small percentage will throw their dummy out of the pram and start screaming in the hope that someone will think they are being wronged.
Yeh, and quoting Canadian harassment law is really helping his cause in the UK.
chuzzlemonkey
09-08-2008, 12:32
He'll get over it! lol
its nice to see the system working correctly for a change, the o/p was offered a way back but chose not to take it.
WHISTLED
09-08-2008, 13:06
Turned into ramblings this didnt it. Not one post that justified or showed vm to be wrong..
Would have been pretty straight forward to check the call history if call was made from home phone.. Thats what i would have done.
Really brings a warm glow to my heart when someone is taken offline that quite obviously doesn't deserve the use of their connection. Grow up, learn how to treat people with respect and stop acting like a spolit child when you don't hear what you want to hear. People get disconnected for abuse every day, most will accept this and deal with it in a mature manner, a small percentage will throw their dummy out of the pram and start screaming in the hope that someone will think they are being wronged.
:clap:
joglynne
09-08-2008, 14:34
:erm: Not sure if this is taking the thread off topic and sorry if that is the case but this thread has made me think about the email accounts being used on my VM BB.
I am the person listed as the customer of VM. Both my husband and I have separate email accounts. Mine are with VM and Google, and my husband has Hotmail and Google accounts.
As I was the person who signed up to VMs T &C (very many moons ago) would VM hold me responsible for any emails made by my husband on my connection?
Luckily my husband would be as likely to send such an email as he would be to go and start shouting profanities on a street corner. In order to check that his emails are not offensive however, do VM expect me to invade John's privacy by reading his mail, or am I misunderstanding something obvious?
Tarantella
09-08-2008, 14:38
You'll almost certainly find something in the VM terms and conditions smallprint that allows you to do this Jo ~~ so go ahead. :redcard:
I don't think they expect you to read his emails, but they do hold you responsible if your BB connection is used for anything that is against their t&c's.
:erm: Not sure if this is taking the thread off topic and sorry if that is the case but this thread has made me think about the email accounts being used on my VM BB.
I am the person listed as the customer of VM. Both my husband and I have separate email accounts. Mine are with VM and Google, and my husband has Hotmail and Google accounts.
As I was the person who signed up to VMs T &C (very many moons ago) would VM hold me responsible for any emails made by my husband on my connection?
Luckily my husband would be as likely to send such an email as he would be to go and start shouting profanities on a street corner. In order to check that his emails are not offensive however, do VM expect me to invade John's privacy by reading his mail, or am I misunderstanding something obvious?
You are responsible yes, the terms and conditions, or more explicitly the user policy for Internet says so. However, I would hope that you could reasonably explain it was a family member responsible, and that VM would accept your explanation as long as you could bring that family member in control.
Whether you are allowed to read your husbands email in order to ascertain some sort of compliance within a user policy is a whole other matter.
Keep in mind though that VM act on complaints sent to them, they don't, or shouldn't go reading your emails themselves (no phorm comments please). THAT would be a serious breach of privacy and there are regualtions in place that strictly forbid such interception.
I wouldn't worry too much here, the original poster had his services shut down because it appears he failed to follow a reasonable request and apologise to a VM employee for an offensive comment.
From this I would think that a family of PC users should become familiar with what their ISP does not find acceptable, and work within those guidelines.
Hope that helps. :)
So if someone is using your connection to abuse others it is your responsibility to prevent them from using that connection.
Mind what that would entail domestically I'm not sure, if they won't subm...errr comply.With children it's easy but a spouse?
Divorce,kitchen knife,frying pan,rolling pin..............
I'm not sure the police would be any help though.:erm:
So if someone is using your connection to abuse others it is your responsibility to prevent them from using that connection.
Mind what that would entail domestically I'm not sure, if they won't subm...errr comply.With children it's easy but a spouse?
Divorce,kitchen knife,frying pan,rolling pin..............
I'm not sure the police would be any help though.:erm:
That is exactly what the VM policy says, and I would hope that an account holder being made aware of a breach of user policy would do the responsible thing and at least try to work out what's going on.
Obviously the ISP wouldn't know the domestic situation of any household it has on their books, nor should it. Therefore it is reasonable for them to expect a level of compliance that leads to no further complaints, and where possible help out if there is a security leak, such as an open wireless router.
However, getting a spouse to stop sending offensive emails would be a challenge, but flashing the letter from their ISP in front of them may get them to think twice. :shrug:
For me I have a very secure wireless network, each PC/Laptop is firewalled, and all family members are instructed in proper Internet use.
I've been away for a while, and this was the first thing I read. I haven't laughed so much in ages! :D
:LOL:
ruddock08
09-08-2008, 15:42
What's it to do with Virgin on what you put on e-mails on Hotmail or Gmail? Surely Vrigin should spend more time moderating their own email service?
I can understand though, as it was his broadband but surely Virgin have had to do some IP tracing or something through Hotmail?
And Virgin demanding an apology? I could understand them saying they will cancel your services but them demanding an apology, it sounds like two boys in the playground with the headteacher to me ;)
And Virgin demanding an apology? I could understand them saying they will cancel your services but them demanding an apology, it sounds like two boys in the playground with the headteacher to me ;)
I can guess at the 2 names from the team who it most probably was asking for an apology. one is Bill and the other one's Ben :D
chuzzlemonkey
09-08-2008, 15:49
What's it to do with Virgin on what you put on e-mails on Hotmail or Gmail? Surely Vrigin should spend more time moderating their own email service?
I can understand though, as it was his broadband but surely Virgin have had to do some IP tracing or something through Hotmail?
And Virgin demanding an apology? I could understand them saying they will cancel your services but them demanding an apology, it sounds like two boys in the playground with the headteacher to me ;)
If somebody reported the mail then its Virgin's obligation to sort it...from what i gather they just warned the OP in regards to this and asked him to put it in writing that he would adhere to the terms and conditions of his conract...
Then Virgin received a call, supposedly from the OP, telling them to **** off..this was left on an answerphone message. That's why an apology was requested...
Thunderballs
09-08-2008, 18:29
You dont roll over when you are bullied by a corporate and you dont allow them to push you around from one department to another quoting "breach of T&Cs " and words like abuse - without requiring them to be specific.
How many times do you hear people qouteing "data protection" ? as an excuse. Try asking them specifically which bit of the Data Protection Act etc the yare referring to.
The approach i have taken with VM is to respond to their allegations against me.
They specifically claim I breached thewir T&Cs.
Not at any stage have they quoted the Usage policy.
Now I am quite happy to accept a mail was sent via my connection.
But VM are specifically aking me to appologise.
As far as I can tell there is not one T&C I have breached even though this email contains a swear word.
For them to even contemplate sending a letter like this to a customer they should think very carefully.
Remeber this complaint has been lodged by some random person - it is a one off.
There is no history of my account being used like this, no previous, nothing.
Using the "evidence" VM are trying to use against me and their T&Cs I am simply asking them to explain what the reasoning, legalities etc are behinfd their actions.
There is no way I am a) going to admit wrong doing when I havent done anything wrong B)going to sign a confession and sentd it to VM just becasue they say I have done something wrong.
Specifically the issues here are do do with abuse and harrassment.
If a reasonable case existed for classifying this email as abuse or harrassment VM might have had a cause to send me a letter etc.
You cannot clasify one email as harrassment. Harrassment is substantially a pattern of behaviours.
This email was not addressed to a person or did not mention a persons name - you ccant harrass an inanimate object.
The address the email was sent to is not a personal email address or idf it is it has been made to look like a company or organisation. You cant abuse a company in this context.
Regasrdless of above - it could have been sent to the complainants email address as a mistake again it doesnt name anyone abuse anyone harrass anyone etc.
So there is no case to answer for abuse or harrassment. it contais no attachments or if it does they are not saying these contain anything of issue, so the rmail isnt selling anything or distributing anything so it isnt spam or anything to do with pirated software.
Nothwithstanding all the above VM should never have sent this letter accusing me of wrongdoing without speaking to me or asking for my input into their "investigation".
IMO someone got a complaint from a random person, looked up the traceroute - saw the swearword - sent a standard letter to me as account holder deciding it could be "deemed offensive". It has cost them 1500 quid a year and a customer becasue they are too lazy to think about what thye are doing.
The undisputed fact the email contains a swear word does not contravene any of their T&Cs or usage policies.
From AUP
". Virgin Media's Right to Suspend, Restrict or Terminate Your Services
2.1. We will take action if you abuse the Services (for example, by sending spam or making racist Usenet postings). "
This doesnt apply
3.2. You must not use the Services in any way that is unlawful or illegal or in any way to the detriment of other Internet users. You also must not allow anybody using your connection to use the Services in any way that is unlawful or illegal or in any way to the detriment of other Internet users.
This doesnt apply
As the User of record, you are responsible for all use of your account, irrespective of use without your knowledge and/or consent.
This does apply
This could apply
. Email Use
9.1. Email usage must be fully compliant with Sections 3 and 4 of this AUP (Use of Services and Use of Material).
9.2. We will investigate complaints regarding email and may take action at our discretion, which shall be based on but not limited to the following:
But only becasue the terms say they think they can do what they want and determine whatever they want to be a breach of the Terms.
Thats not legal perse - just becasue this clause exists does not in any shape or form mean VM can do what they like without recourse to the law.
If they could use and enforce these catchall phrases their T&Cs could simply say
"we can suspend your services or terminate your contract immediately for any reason we want to but you must give us 30 days notice and pay any charges we say you owe us if you cancel"
Well if you are lucky maybe our legal eagle Mr Angry will be around to read your postings and give you his considered opinion.
That is about as much help as you are likely to get here.
snip snip snip"
You appear to have overlooked Section 4 of the AUP
"Use of Material
4.1. You are prohibited from storing, distributing, transmitting or causing to be published any Prohibited Material through your use of the Services. Examples of "Prohibited Material" shall be determined by us (acting in our sole discretion) and shall include (but are not limited to) material that:
4.1.1. is threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, defamatory, racist, obscene, indecent, offensive, abusive, harmful or malicious;"
And section 9.2.3
"9.2.3. malicious mail"
An email containing an offensive word, sent from your IP address, may be regarded as falling under these provisions, perhaps?
deed02392
09-08-2008, 19:53
Who else calls BS on the whole thing? Good trolling Thunderballs, but really, regardless of terms and conditions, VM aren't going to start disconnecting people for swearing in emails either from their own servers or sent from Hotmail to a third party. Well done. I suggest 4chan/b/ for your next /i/
+1
I'm sorry but if Virgin had been scanning webmail going through their servers for misspelt swear words, I think they would have had too many law suits on their hands to juggle their next Samuel Jackson advertisement.
Yes, if the recipient complains, and hotmail are logging the IP used to connect and in turn a complaint is then made to Virgin Media.
Hotmail do routinely log the IP of the sending computer. In fact, it is embedded in the mail headers for the message.
deed02392
09-08-2008, 21:37
So Hotmail is passing on information as to the content of emails if the recipient finds them to be abusive?
So Hotmail is passing on information as to the content of emails if the recipient finds them to be abusive?
No. The information is stored within the e-mail itself. Its included automatically. Its up to the recipient to make a complaint, and if they do, they only need to forward the e-mail they received to supply the information needed.
Wait... what!? VM can read emails that you send, even via hotmail/gmail etc?!? LOL huh?
Wait... what!? VM can read emails that you send, even via hotmail/gmail etc?!? LOL huh?
No. They won't act unless someone sends them the offending email.
deed02392
10-08-2008, 17:55
Exactly, like I just reported someone for insinuating sex with minors on my sites shoutbox. I did an IP WHOIS on their IP, and traced it to a BT customer, then left them an email. Wish I hadn't deleted the message now so I could have some proof but I was hardly going to leave that sick on my site.
Thunderballs
11-08-2008, 04:46
You appear to have overlooked Section 4 of the AUP
"Use of Material
4.1. You are prohibited from storing, distributing, transmitting or causing to be published any Prohibited Material through your use of the Services. Examples of "Prohibited Material" shall be determined by us (acting in our sole discretion) and shall include (but are not limited to) material that:
4.1.1. is threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, defamatory, racist, obscene, indecent, offensive, abusive, harmful or malicious;"
And section 9.2.3
"9.2.3. malicious mail"
An email containing an offensive word, sent from your IP address, may be regarded as falling under these provisions, perhaps?
No I have not.
"use of material" applies to attachments or pictures videos etc. Not words. And dont make me laugh - they try to get people to subscribe to their porn channels too
"malicious mail" As outlined above - the email did not name a person was not addressed to a person.
And moreover without understanding both "sides" how on earth could they reasonably assess it was anything ?
The fact people have to go to these lengths to sqeeze out some obscure bit of the T+Cs etc t ocome up for a reason Virgin would remotely botther with this if they had considered it for more than 5 seconds just shows how absurd it is.
Anyway that department are getting it with two barrels from me now.
Might make them think twice before they send these threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive letters to their customers.
whydoIneedatech
11-08-2008, 07:04
No I have not.
"use of material" applies to attachments or pictures videos etc. Not words. And dont make me laugh - they try to get people to subscribe to their porn channels too
"malicious mail" As outlined above - the email did not name a person was not addressed to a person.
And moreover without understanding both "sides" how on earth could they reasonably assess it was anything ?
The fact people have to go to these lengths to sqeeze out some obscure bit of the T+Cs etc t ocome up for a reason Virgin would remotely botther with this if they had considered it for more than 5 seconds just shows how absurd it is.
Anyway that department are getting it with two barrels from me now.
Might make them think twice before they send these threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive letters to their customers.
The AUP and the Terms and Conditions pages are not obscure they are available with 2 clicks from the VirginMedia home page.
No I have not.
"use of material" applies to attachments or pictures videos etc. Not words. And dont make me laugh - they try to get people to subscribe to their porn channels too
In your opinion
"malicious mail" As outlined above - the email did not name a person was not addressed to a person.
Mr Splitting-Hairs appears to be visiting your house - from what you have stated, an email was sent from your VM connection, whether it was to a department, a person, or a general email account, it was intended to be read by someone.
And moreover without understanding both "sides" how on earth could they reasonably assess it was anything ?
The fact people have to go to these lengths to sqeeze out some obscure bit of the T+Cs etc t ocome up for a reason Virgin would remotely botther with this if they had considered it for more than 5 seconds just shows how absurd it is.
As stated below by another poster, 2 clicks away is hardly "obscure". btw, perhaps if you read the T&Cs fully, your definition of "absurd" may change (but probably not).
Anyway that department are getting it with two barrels from me now.
Yes, because that approach has worked so well for you so far.....;)
Might make them think twice before they send these threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive letters to their customers.
Nothing anyone says on this thread is going to amend your viewpoint, is it?
No I have not.
"use of material" applies to attachments or pictures videos etc. Not words. And dont make me laugh - they try to get people to subscribe to their porn channels too
Actually, that phrase can be applied to words as well.
"malicious mail" As outlined above - the email did not name a person was not addressed to a person.
Without seeing the email, I cannot comment on it, but an email does not need to be addressed to, or name a person to be malicious. It's entirely possible to send an email to an email address for a department that is malicious. I've seen a few..
And moreover without understanding both "sides" how on earth could they reasonably assess it was anything ?
The fact people have to go to these lengths to sqeeze out some obscure bit of the T+Cs etc t ocome up for a reason Virgin would remotely botther with this if they had considered it for more than 5 seconds just shows how absurd it is.
Again, without seeing the email, I cannot comment on it, but VM's terms and conditions are hardly obscure. So it is not a fact that "people have to go to these lengths" because those people just went to http://www.virginmedia.com, clicked the appropriate link and read. Hardly any length at all.
The fact is that someone read the email sent from your account, found it offensive in some way. They reported it to VM who would have had to read it to find the IP it was sent from. VM obviously agreed it was in some way offensive and acted.
Anyway that department are getting it with two barrels from me now.
Might make them think twice before they send these threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive letters to their customers.
Doubtful. They are a department who is cutting people off all the time. At best, if your email is too offensive, it will be ignored.
Thunderballs
11-08-2008, 15:26
OK OK stick to the corporate line.
The email says "Mod Edit: Graham M: Please do not bypass the swear filter!"
Thats it - exactly in its entirety.
Saaf_laandon_mo
11-08-2008, 16:18
OK OK stick to the corporate line.
The email says "Mod Edit: Graham M: Please do not bypass the swear filter!"
Thats it - exactly in its entirety.
Had you been watching The Terminator on DVD just before writing that email?
OK OK stick to the corporate line.
The email says "Mod Edit: Graham M: Please do not bypass the swear filter!"
Thats it - exactly in its entirety.
Or as we call it, being reasonable. ;)
Something that you find acceptable other people may find offensive - my wife finds anything stronger than "damn" offensive, and any of the common four letter euphemisms are strictly verboten in our house (teenagers and adults - one rule for all).
Very few of the posters on CF are VM employees, and those that are, usually state so in their signature (and I am not one of them).
OK OK stick to the corporate line.
The email says "Mod Edit: Graham M: Please do not bypass the swear filter!"
Thats it - exactly in its entirety.
I'm not sticking to the corporate line. I don't work for Virgin (in any capacity) so I have nothing to do with their corporate line.
Also, I did not ask you to reproduce the email although having seen it before it was edited, I can actually see why people might complain. Remember, while you may be happy to see swear words, not everyone is, and some people do find them offensive.
alferret
11-08-2008, 17:31
Moderator EDIT
I must have missed something, I didn't realise Branson was in charge of Virgin Media, I assumed that NTL\Telewest have use of the Virgin name and logo and the marketing power that comes with the Virgin brand name. (for a hefty price)
Silly me!
Intresting thread this, I think Mr\Mrs Thunderballs should just go to another ISP as they obviously cant be bothered with making an apology. After all its just words you dont have to mean it when you say it.
A troll by any other name :rolleyes:
Moderator Edit
Hang on while i remove my brain so i can understand you RANT.
xspeedyx
11-08-2008, 17:44
me thinks he doesnt like Virgin Media
me thinks he doesnt like Virgin Media
Me thinks you need a lobotomy to understand his Rant.
Raistlin
11-08-2008, 17:59
Me thinks that unless people stop hurling random tit for tat sly comments and digs at each other a lot of people are going to rack up a lot of infractions very quickly.....
It would make a moderator's life much easier if members didn't quote problematic postings in their replies. ;)
watzizname
11-08-2008, 22:33
Intresting thread this, I think Mr\Mrs Thunderballs should just go to another ISP as they obviously cant be bothered with making an apology. After all its just words you dont have to mean it when you say it.
A troll by any other name :rolleyes:
I believe that one of the OP's main points was that, making said apology, would be an admission of guilt.. something he doesn't feel is justfied, and until he understands why, i don't see it happening, anytime soon :juggle:
Claim temporary insanity and our new communist overlord may spare your account.
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 02:46
[quote=foreverwar;34619257]Or as we call it, being reasonable. ;)
Something that you find acceptable other people may find offensive - my wife finds anything stronger than "damn" offensive, and any of the common four letter euphemisms are strictly verboten in our house (teenagers and adults - one rule for all).
quote]
Exactly.
Which is why you need to understand context before you can "judge" something.
You dont understand context by simply accepting that some random person that filled in an abuse complaint is legitimate or the their complaint is.
It is not reasonable to look at someone elses mail and then claim to be abused by it.
Exactly.
Which is why you need to understand context before you can "judge" something.
You dont understand context by simply accepting that some random person that filled in an abuse complaint is legitimate or the their complaint is.
It is not reasonable to look at someone elses mail and then claim to be abused by it.
Sorry, but if what you posted is an accurate copy of the email, then context is irrelevant. It contained a swear word. Someone obviously got offended by that and reported it. A lot of people (me included when appropriate) use swear words as part of their everyday language, but a lot don't, and a lot get offended by the word irrespective of the context.
imho, it's the perception / context of the recipient that counts, not the sender - that's what people often forget about email, is that the recipient does not know the state of mind / context of the sender (if it's meant humourously, angrily, facetiously, etc, etc), so they can only read what they received, not what was "meant".
btw, how was it a "random person" that complained - surely it was the person who received and read the email (doesn't sound particularly "random" to me), and was offended by a swear word.
Irrelavant when it's copied to this forum, the swear rule is there for one reason only and that is the fact that this is a family forum and with any possibility of minors reading the forum has the obligation of removing content deemed unsuitable.
MovedGoalPosts
13-08-2008, 09:51
I find the whole idea that sending an email to a company's group address or distribution list means that it can't offend because it's not addressed to an individual rather a laughable argument. You wouldn't expect to be able to walk down the street shouting abuse to the heavens, without eventually feeling your collar tugged by one of Blunket's bouncers would you? It's the same for the email, and in fact worse. It will be read by real people on behalf of the company, it is those readers that can and will take offence, and since it's sent to a group address, chances are you will offend not just one reader, but a multitude.
Zhadnost
13-08-2008, 12:17
Forgive me for being pedantic, but don't you mean Jacqui Smith's bouncers?
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 14:46
I find the whole idea that sending an email to a company's group address or distribution list means that it can't offend because it's not addressed to an individual rather a laughable argument. You wouldn't expect to be able to walk down the street shouting abuse to the heavens, without eventually feeling your collar tugged by one of Blunket's bouncers would you? It's the same for the email, and in fact worse. It will be read by real people on behalf of the company, it is those readers that can and will take offence, and since it's sent to a group address, chances are you will offend not just one reader, but a multitude.
Indeed. If you are shouting abuse in a public place that is not the same issue.
I am not saying an email not addressed to or sent to a specific person is not capable of being seen as offensive. It just cant be deemed offensive under law jusut because it is capable of being seen as offensive.
The issue is whether it constitutes abuse of an individual or harrassment becasue these are the only real contractual issues at stake here and why the clauses exist in the first place which is to protect VM from being culpable as an ISP.
The fact it contains a swear work is substantially irrelevant because it is possible in law to abuse and harrass without using swear words.
It isnt suffiecient in law AFAIK for Virgin to simply invoke wide reaching terminology in their AUP or T&Cs which are unenforceable in law.
As mentioned before as an example - their T&Cs say they can terminate a customers account immediately for any reason. This is not lawful. In court this statement in the T&Cs would be disregarded.
The issue is whether it constitutes abuse of an individual or harrassment becasue these are the only real contractual issues at stake here and why the clauses exist in the first pplace which is to protect VM from being culpable as an ISP.Virgin's AUP and T&C don't make any distinction between sending an e-mail to an indivdual or to a company. And that is exactly the reason why the AUP and T&Cs are there, as it is with any other ISP
The fact it contains a swear work is substantially irrelevant because it is possible in law to abuse and harrass without using swear words.Yes it is and the AUP states "9.2.8. harassment, whether through language, frequency or size of messages sent, is prohibited"
It isnt suffiecient in law AFAIK for Virgin to simply invoke wide reaching terminology in their AUP or T&Cs which are unenforceable in law.I don't see why it wouldn't be. As long as Virgin prove a breach occured, then they would be enforceable
As mentioned before as an example - their T&Cs say they can terminate a customers account immediately for any reason. This is not lawful. In court this statement in the T&Cs would be disregarded.Actually their T&Cs say they can terminate an account with 30 days notice normally and immediately if it breaks the AUP. You agree to this when you take their services. So I think as long as Virgin have given the notice required within their T&Cs/AUP, the courts could not do anything about it TBH
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 15:21
Well the story has taken another turn becasue I got another letter from virgin today in response to my complaint to the ISPA.
This is the second letter i have from VM on this where the date on the letter and the postmark and day I received the letter are significantly different.
Essentially the letter i have is dated the same day I filed my compliant to the ISPA - Saturday 9th August. It is postamarked 11th August and I received it today.
It is from someone in their Wythenshaw office but the ydont include a job title tel number and their is no department.
Basically it just says I am in "clear breach of their Terms and Conditions - Section D in General and subsection 4 in particular. You were also in breach of our Acceptable Use Policy - Sections 2, 3 and 9 wit hparticular reference to 3.4"
I have writtne back (funnilty enough) and anyone who is vaguely interested can look up those clauses.
Substantially the yare simply citing their right to terminate if a breach occurs but not specifically detailing what has been breached. Notably Section 9 of the AUP deal wit hemail and this letter does detail a subsection or subsections of that email clause I have apparently breached - which you might reasonably expect them to do given this relates to an email.
Anyway I suspect this fella is going to the Small Claims court where i will be asking for someone that knows about the law to have a look at it and decide if it was lawful for VM to terminate my contract on the basis of this email, and whether or not they should have given me 30 days notice.
VM make the rules up, you didn't follow them, wheres the problem?
as for the dates, the 9th is a saturday so maybe there was no post collection and it was sent on monday, which was the 11th so they are hardly significantly different. As for the delivery, I suppose it's up to VM to deliver letters is it?
Well the story has taken another turn becasue I got another letter from virgin today in response to my complaint to the ISPA.
This is the second letter i have from VM on this where the date on the letter and the postmark and day I received the letter are significantly different.
Essentially the letter i have is dated the same day I filed my compliant to the ISPA - Saturday 9th August. It is postamarked 11th August and I received it today.
It is from someone in their Wythenshaw office but the ydont include a job title tel number and their is no department.
Basically it just says I am in "clear breach of their Terms and Conditions - Section D in General and subsection 4 in particular. You were also in breach of our Acceptable Use Policy - Sections 2, 3 and 9 wit hparticular reference to 3.4"
I have writtne back (funnilty enough) and anyone who is vaguely interested can look up those clauses.
Substantially the yare simply citing their right to terminate if a breach occurs but not specifically detailing what has been breached. Notably Section 9 of the AUP deal wit hemail and this letter does detail a subsection or subsections of that email clause I have apparently breached - which you might reasonably expect them to do given this relates to an email.
Anyway I suspect this fella is going to the Small Claims court where i will be asking for someone that knows about the law to have a look at it and decide if it was lawful for VM to terminate my contract on the basis of this email, and whether or not they should have given me 30 days notice.
So it was produced on Saturday, posted/franked on the Monday, and Royal Mail delivered it on Wednesday - sounds fairly normal to me.
Or did you expect VM to hire a same day courier for it? ;)
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 15:46
I would expect them to not have been able to complete an investigation from start to finish on a Saturday and write the letter.
I have another letter from them where a similar thing has happened.
Sending me postdated letters that they dont refer to in conversations i have with them after the letter is dated but before it is received.
I dont think I am being pedantic suggesting a complaint filed on a Saturday with the ispa and apparantly investigated and replied to the same day by VM and a different person and department to htose involved is a little circumspect.
The letter also disregards the ISPA process in so far as it says "the matter is now closed" and there is at least one more stage in the dispute resolution process before "deadlock" is declared and it goes further under the ISPA complaints procedure.
So Thunderballs what do you expect from this forum and this thread?
It's not going to resolve your position and you've been enough of a warning to those who use emails to anonymously abuse others as to consequences.
What do you hope to achieve here?Get VM investigated/or to change their minds...well that's not going to work because you haven't convinced enough of the members that you have a case and we have no influence with the Ombudsman.
All that is happening is that you have bounced your ideas/feelings around the thread and everyone is just bouncing the same few ideas back at you.
So what DO you want?
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 15:56
VM make the rules up, you didn't follow them, wheres the problem?
as for the dates, the 9th is a saturday so maybe there was no post collection and it was sent on monday, which was the 11th so they are hardly significantly different. As for the delivery, I suppose it's up to VM to deliver letters is it?
They dont make the rules up. The day we let companies make up the rules by which we are all governed will never come.
Can I suggest that some of your relatives gave their lives for the freedom we enjoy under the law of this great country of ours.
Well misinterpreted - so my relatives died so you (or someone who used your connection) could send an email containing an obscenity, and also a voicemail?
Is it me, or are we over-reacting a mite?
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/08/57.jpg (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://manage.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/flogging.jpg&imgrefurl=http://manage.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/flogging-dead-horses/&h=450&w=350&sz=32&hl=en&start=23&tbnid=t-FuUs9wWixN7M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dflogging%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26nds p%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 16:12
Well misinterpreted - so my relatives died so you (or someone who used your connection) could send an email containing an obscenity, and also a voicemail?
Is it me, or are we
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/08/57.jpg (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://manage.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/flogging.jpg&imgrefurl=http://manage.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/flogging-dead-horses/&h=450&w=350&sz=32&hl=en&start=23&tbnid=t-FuUs9wWixN7M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=99&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dflogging%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26nds p%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)
Steady on. The guy said vm make up the rules"
Yes your ancestors did die to ensure companies dont make up the rules.
The fact they dont make up the rules doesnt mean I am right.
---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 16:07 ----------
So Thunderballs what do you expect from this forum and this thread?
It's not going to resolve your position and you've been enough of a warning to those who use emails to anonymously abuse others as to consequences.
What do you hope to achieve here?Get VM investigated/or to change their minds...well that's not going to work because you haven't convinced enough of the members that you have a case and we have no influence with the Ombudsman.
All that is happening is that you have bounced your ideas/feelings around the thread and everyone is just bouncing the same few ideas back at you.
So what DO you want?
0.
Steady on. The guy said vm make up the rules"
Yes your ancestors did die to ensure companies dont make up the rules.
The fact they dont make up the rules doesnt mean I am right.
Point of order (and vastly off topic), but didn't our ancestors die because a) the members of the Empire got a bit bored of British rule and we didn't take the hint quickly enough, or b) because our government at the time really didn't think that anyone who annexed Poland was very friendly?
WHISTLED
13-08-2008, 17:16
I bet the guys on the Abuse Team are absolutely wetting themselves at this thread..
Steady on. The guy said vm make up the rules"
and for providing you with the use of an internet connection they do make the rules, isps state (not just VM) that you are liable for the content/use of the connection, regardless if it is an unsecured wifi conection for example
other companies make the rules up for their customers aswell, that is something that will never change
as for the letter dates i think yes you are being pedantic, a letter done after 5pm on a saturday even if posted would not be collected til monday by the Royal Mail
They dont make the rules up. The day we let companies make up the rules by which we are all governed will never come.
Can I suggest that some of your relatives gave their lives for the freedom we enjoy under the law of this great country of ours.
Someone appears to be lacking perspective here. You are acting as if Virgin are trying to annex the country. They are not. They have denied you service.
As for them denying you service, it's simple: You use their network, you agree to obey their rules. You disobey those rules, and Virgin can, if they so desire, refuse to provide service.
I am no expert, but I believe the law goes some way to protecting VMs right not to provide service to you. In fact, as far as I know, the ONLY telecoms company with a legal obligation to provide service is British Telecom, and even they are only obliged to provide a line to the house.
You claim they have had no time to investigate. What's to investigate? You swore in an email and, apparently, on a voicemail (which in itself is enough to get you refused service assuming you actually did it). They have the email, which was presumably forwarded to whoever did the investigation.
I have to admit, assuming this is your first time and that you didn't leave an offensive email, that I'd consider disconnection a little harsh. I personally think they should have written to you first and then disconnected if you continued.
I personally think they should have written to you first and then disconnected if you continued.
But they did? It appears, according to his original post, that it was only after he left an offensive voicemail message was suspension taken, and that refusal by the O/P to admit to abuse of the service led to the disconnection.
On all other points in your post which I didn't quote for the sake of brevity, I agree.
So, what has happened here? The poster has failed to solicit the sympathy he thinks he deserves from this community, and has sought to justify his arguments through accusations of corporate bullying and rule making. I don't see this thread of being any further benefit
But they did? It appears, according to his original post, that it was only after he left an offensive voicemail message was suspension taken, and that refusal by the O/P to admit to abuse of the service led to the disconnection.
On all other points in your post which I didn't quote for the sake of brevity, I agree.
So, what has happened here? The poster has failed to solicit the sympathy he thinks he deserves from this community, and has sought to justify his arguments through accusations of corporate bullying and rule making. I don't see this thread of being any further benefit
oh come on toto it gives us all a laugh thats a benefit in itself. :D
oh come on toto it gives us all a laugh thats a benefit in itself. :D
Oh behave :)
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 19:47
LOL.
I have a contract with Virgin - or did !
It is the Terms of that contract that are in dispute.
In a contract dispute it isnt sufficient in Law to point to a clause in a contract and say - "look the contract says this and they did that so we can do y"
The terms have to be lawful. They are not automatically lawful because both parties have agreed to them and they both have a piece of paper with each others signature on.
Because that is the case it is incorrect to say that Virgin make up the rules - they dont.
It is also becasue of that that I am going to claim that Virgin had no right "in law" to disconnect my services without giving me 30 days notice.
I am not disputing the email was sent via my internet connection.
I am not disputing some people might find it offensive.
I am disputing that it specifically breaches the Terms and Conditions of the contract and VM have yet to specifically detail to me how it breaches the Terms and Conditions and which clauses it breaches.
WHISTLED
13-08-2008, 19:58
Virgin as with most other service providers can decide if they want to provide you with service. They can cancel that service and therefore that contract if they wish.
Dunno why your LOL'ing not seen anyone that agrees with you yet and cnsidering the typical flow of this forum it unheard of, your arguments are just ramblings.
Get over it
If you ask me there is an element of spying going on here. On phones it is called tapping... it's illegal to open other peoples postal mail (unless with consent), so what on earth is different with email.
I should be able to swear as much as I like in an email, after all it's private... they swear on Virgin broadcasted TV channels, which is for public viewing... so why don't they banned their own TV channels!! Power hungry corporations have a lot of nerve when they more than contradict their own ethics!! Really!!
And on another angle; who determines what a swear word is... a **** is a type of tobacco and could be perceived as a rude word... I am sure there are many cross lingual words that mean something quite legitimate in one language and a swear word in another language... so do I get banned for saying a word that may seem to be a swear word, but is infact not because of the context... and if they are looking at the context then they are spying!!
Freedom of speach does not exclude swear words!!
Our Freedom for life is being taken away by these people and anyone who does not see that is a complete fingerlinin singletinger.
theLaw, trying reading the thread.
Someone complained about an email they had received from the OP's VM connection - no spying took place.
Actually, freedom of speech does exclude swear words - it is a disciplinary offence in most work places to use offensive language (in the first post, the OP stated the email contained ""F" word and donkeyhole (I paraphrase)") - obviously the recipient found that offensive, and that is all the context that is required (imho).
Freedom of speach does not exclude swear words!!
Nonsense!
Trying swearing at a police officer, in private, and see where that gets you.
[Admin Edit: Offensive post deleted]
oblonsky
13-08-2008, 20:35
Did I miss something here, but how did the complainant poster, Thunderballs, get back on the net to do all this posting if his service has been disconnected for 2 weeks?
I admit it's very harsh to receive a warning letter based on one email, but the pieces don't all seem to fit into place to me.
Lets assume you didn't leave the voicemail, which in itself and in the absence of an apology I would deny you service...
Then I would speak to a solicitor about breach of contract and get them to press Virgin Media for compensation for the lost time and hassle of finding another service provider, based on the evidence of one email.
Why? Well on the basis of a single email it would be tough to prove it actually came from your connection. I could cut and paste an offensive email and modify the IP address to get someone I don't like into trouble with their ISP.
But...
You are where you are now, from what I can tell, because of a combination of factors. Can you prove you didn't leave the offensive voicemail?
So in this situation isn't it best just to cut your losses and move on? From what I understand you had a chance to apologise and chose not to, so find another ISP.
But, as I opened with, you have some form of handy connection as you've been posting regularly on here...
Admin Edit
Thank you for your reasoned response - see what I mean about it is about the recipient's context. They have swearing and sexually explicit content on TV, but not in church - it is all about context.
Have a nice day.;)
btw, bolding the letters to make a swear word is a trifle juvenile, dontcha think? :o:
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 20:38
theLaw, trying reading the thread.
Someone complained about an email they had received from the OP's VM connection - no spying took place.
Actually, freedom of speech does exclude swear words - it is a disciplinary offence in most work places to use offensive language (in the first post, the OP stated the email contained ""F" word and donkeyhole (I paraphrase)") - obviously the recipient found that offensive, and that is all the context that is required (imho).
This swear word hasnt been used in the workplace.
Freedom of speech is nothing to do with the workplace.
In a workplace you are usually required by your contract of employment to adhere to certain behaviours . Tose beahviours neccessarily restrict your general right to freedom of speech if you want to keep your job.
VM T&Cs AUP do restrict freedom of speech but that does not mean that they are unlawful or lawful. I strongly suspect it is a mixture of both but more down to their choice of what restrictions they place on their customers use of their services and any obligations they have in supplying their services under other laws.
I do not dispute they believe their rights under the contract to terminate my services for whatever reason they choose (but I may if they are judged to be lawful in applying an immediate contract termination for the email content or this aledged Voicemail)
The thrust of my complaint at the moment is I beleive they have to give me 30 days notice under UK law because of the nature of this contract.
They haven't given me that and it has casued me loss.
The frredom of speech curtailments that VMs T&Cs and AUP place on all customers are another matter but they are similar to the Phorm and BPI issues in that VM are at liberty to withhold their service to customers that dont accept them. They may not be at liberty to apply these conditions retrospectively against existing contracts.
As a consumer you have the right to buy and use their services or not.
oh dear forever... juvenile it is not... proving a point about what can get you banned for it is!!
Is it me, or is this thread just turning into a
http://www.tinmantintoys.com/images/candn/merrygoround.jpg
---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------
oh dear forever... juvenile it is not... proving a point about what can get you banned for it is!!
As I am sure you are about to find out.......;)
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 20:42
Did I miss something here, but how did the complainant poster, Thunderballs, get back on the net to do all this posting if his service has been disconnected for 2 weeks?
I admit it's very harsh to receive a warning letter based on one email, but the pieces don't all seem to fit into place to me.
Lets assume you didn't leave the voicemail, which in itself and in the absence of an apology I would deny you service...
Then I would speak to a solicitor about breach of contract and get them to press Virgin Media for compensation for the lost time and hassle of finding another service provider, based on the evidence of one email.
Why? Well on the basis of a single email it would be tough to prove it actually came from your connection. I could cut and paste an offensive email and modify the IP address to get someone I don't like into trouble with their ISP.
But...
You are where you are now, from what I can tell, because of a combination of factors. Can you prove you didn't leave the offensive voicemail?
So in this situation isn't it best just to cut your losses and move on? From what I understand you had a chance to apologise and chose not to, so find another ISP.
But, as I opened with, you have some form of handy connection as you've been posting regularly on here...
Good post.
I am going to take them to court for precisely this if my complaint via ISPA isnt dealt wit hto my satisfaction.
I dont need to see a solicitor since it can be dealt with by the small claims court for very little outlay on my behalf.
I dont believe i will be required to prove i didnt leave an offensive voicemail - I think the onous will be on VM to prove that I did. Since I cant imagine they are going to fabricate one it isnt going to even come up in court.
If they did fabricate one, or someone else has left one using my phone etc, its relevance to the Contractual issues might come into play only insofar as VM using it to invoke their "right" to terminate immediately.
I would suspect they would try to invoke that right with regard to the original email unless there is no case to answer there because it is a non issue and has no legal bearing on my contractual status with them.
Ahh well.. time will tell.
Don't forget that have also made threats against me "If you then switch services to another provider and continue to abuse that service we will also arrange for those services to be suspended &/or disconnected"
I imagine i would raise this in court re the contractual issue but it might also be something I choose to take up in a separate action for harassment/tortuous interference.
In all of this i really get no sense that this has been looked at by anyone with a significant legal background and it is very hard to ascertain the levels of seniority you are dealing with since VM do not put job titles on their letters and their staff are reluctant/don't give them out.
On the one hand I find it hard to believe anyone of reasonable authority could have made the elementary error of sending me a letter in response to a formal complaint via the ISPA that a) doesn't appear to comply with the ISPA complaints procedure itself and b) on one level does not indicate a serious effort on VMs part to deal with my complaint since it is dated the same day I made the complaint on the ISPA website and that date is a Saturday.
The case if it gets to court may be interesting since VMs T&Cs prohibit using their services for anything that could be deemed "offensive" etc. I imagine they will have to defend these terms if the yare going to try and rely in them and that may not hold much sway with the judge in light of the range of potentially "offensive" material they broadcast into millions of homes.
Please let us know the outcome.
As a consumer you have the right to buy and use their services or not.
That's not quite correct. Nobody has the right to buy VM's services, it is offered under a term of contract, the initial principal being that they can afford to purchase the services, i.e. not a credit risk.
If they get past that little hurdle, then they have rights under the terms of the contract, which help them, and protect Virgin Media.
I think you should submit a petition to http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ regarding freedom laws. Also write to your MP and if you want a war, to the president of Iran. ;)
Freedom of speach does not exclude swear words!!
You will refer to our sites terms of use,
Especially the section where it states:-
You agree that you will not:
Provoke others or cause trouble. If you wish to argue with people then go to instant messenger or email.
Make personal attacks on anyone during your use of the forum.
Use excessive and unnecessary use of bad language.
whydoIneedatech
13-08-2008, 20:47
I think you should submit a petition to http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ regarding freedom laws. Also write to your MP and if you want a war, to the president of Iran. ;)
You forgot to read this first on that website.
The e-Petitions service will be closed to new submissions during the Prime Minster's time away from Number 10. It will remain open as normal for the searching and signing of petitions.
This temporary closure will allow the Digital Communications team to deal more effectively with the large number of submissions that have built up due to the huge popularity of the service.
The e-Petitions system will re-open to new submissions when the Prime Minister returns to Downing Street after his summer break around 1 September.
They dont make the rules up. The day we let companies make up the rules by which we are all governed will never come.
Can I suggest that some of your relatives gave their lives for the freedom we enjoy under the law of this great country of ours.
you entered into a contract with VM, they set the terms of the contract, so yes they do make the rules. VM can terminate the contract should you break any of the conditions of the contract (that is how contracts work), if they make one of those to be you must send a photo of you upside down to them every thursday and you don't they can terminate the contract still.
Don't be silly i can argue with anyone in email through fear of being banned!
You really have been sipping at the overflowing jug of crazy juice, haven't you? ;)
I think this thread shows that you can't - or don't you let little things like facts get in the way of your tirades? :D
whydoineedatech doh.. okay true but what other parlimentary online petitioning service is there... i think it is called wait until they get back from holiday.
whydoIneedatech
13-08-2008, 20:53
Is this thread going to feature in South Park as it is getting surreal:rofl::rofl::rofl:
---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------
whydoineedatech doh.. okay true but what other parlimentary online petitioning service is there... i think it is called wait until they get back from holiday.
I know it was just in case anyone thought they could start one now;)
MovedGoalPosts
13-08-2008, 20:53
I'd suggest that posters desist from the little jibes at each other, and debate the topic rather than nit picking and baiting each other.
I dont think it will make south park.. that a cartoon series that has abusive content
---------- Post added at 19:56 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------
But I suppose it is okay to be abusive if it makes you money!
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 21:15
you entered into a contract with VM, they set the terms of the contract, so yes they do make the rules. VM can terminate the contract should you break any of the conditions of the contract (that is how contracts work), if they make one of those to be you must send a photo of you upside down to them every thursday and you don't they can terminate the contract still.
They can terminate the contract indeed but they have to do so lawfully by giving the required amount of notice.
Thats my beef with them now not the reason for disconnection because they could and would deny me service in any case now unless someone senior took a view I had been wronged (which i seriously doubt would happen at this stage) or there is something in the ISPA code of conduct that would require them to do so IF the ISPA found in my favour.
whydoIneedatech
13-08-2008, 21:22
They can terminate the contract indeed but they have to do so lawfully by giving the required amount of notice.
Thats my beef with them now not the reason for disconnection because they could and would deny me service in any case now unless someone senior took a view I had been wronged (which i seriously doubt would happen at this stage) or there is something in the ISPA code of conduct that would require them to do so IF the ISPA found in my favour.
They have no need to give you any notice, read in the link below section D Using our services section 1 a to j, you have accepted this by signing your agreement.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
They can terminate the contract indeed but they have to do so lawfully by giving the required amount of notice.
Thats my beef with them now not the reason for disconnection because they could and would deny me service in any case now unless someone senior took a view I had been wronged (which i seriously doubt would happen at this stage) or there is something in the ISPA code of conduct that would require them to do so IF the ISPA found in my favour.
as whydoIneedatech says, its in the terms, they don't need notice:
If we believe that you are using the services in any of these ways, we are entitled to reduce, suspend and/or terminate any or all of the services without giving you notice.
afaik, the only legalities involved are those of contract law which tends to be whatever is in the contract goes
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 21:41
They have no need to give you any notice, read in the link below section D Using our services section 1 a to j, you have accepted this by signing your agreement.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
As I have said before Contract law isnt as simple as here here are the Terms of the contract therefore they are lawful and we have a right to enforce them.
I cannot enter into a contract with someone who is termanally ill to help them die because it is unlawful.
IF this clause in the contract with VM was deemed unlawful/unfair etc VM could not rely on it in court.
I do not believe they can rely on it in court.
It is a sad state of affairs when people think companies make the laws in our country and that what is written in commercial contracts/EULAS/AUPs etc is the law.
---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:35 ----------
as whydoIneedatech says, its in the terms, they don't need notice:
afaik, the only legalities involved are those of contract law which tends to be whatever is in the contract goes
Absolute rubbish.
Contract Law specialists are not rubber stampers who got exceptional marks for English comprehension at school.
I do conceed that generally contracts are written by lawyers and so generally they contain terms that are lawful which might give rise to your your belief that whatever is in the contract goes.
It is a sad state of affairs when people think companies make the laws in our country and that what is written in commercial contracts/EULAS/AUPs etc is the law.
VM don't make the laws, they make the terms of a contract which can be enforcable by existing laws. I find it wosre that someone would compare a contract for TV/BB to one involving life/death.
For a part of a contract to be non-enforceable, there has to be an element of illegality in it. For example, a contract to kill someone as they can't kill themselves is illegal as it's still defined as murder so the contract can't be legal. Similarly, the Apple EULA forcing people to use OS X on Apple hardware only isn't enforced as it breaks competition laws.
What law are you suggesting VM's terms breaks to make it non-enforceable?
whydoIneedatech
13-08-2008, 21:45
As I have said before Contract law isnt as simple as here here are the Terms of the contract therefore they are lawful and we have a right to enforce them.
I cannot enter into a contract with someone who is termanally ill to help them die because it is unlawful.
IF this clause in the contract with VM was deemed unlawful/unfair etc VM could not rely on it in court.
I do not believe they can rely on it in court.
It is a sad state of affairs when people think companies make the laws in our country and that what is written in commercial contracts/EULAS/AUPs etc is the law.
I think you would find that Virgin have a very strong defense in your signature being on their documents accepting their terms and conditions, and their legal team would take apart any argument you tried to use saying otherwise.
Do you really think any large company would leave themselves open by not adhering to the laws of the land, because if they did they would fail very quickly.
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 21:52
theLaw, trying reading the thread.
Someone complained about an email they had received from the OP's VM connection - no spying took place.
.
This does raise another interesting point .
I didnt write the email, it isnt addressed to me yet I have been sent it by VM.
Does the fact the sender used my and ofc Virgin and whoever elses systems/infrasturcure to get to the recipient email address mean that it can be read/used by all those organisations whose infrastructure it used to reach its destination ?
Does the sender therefore loose any rights to prvacy they might have bny sending it via email or are there laws governing how those organisations proviing infrastructure use this senders email ?
Straws, grasping, at - please re-arrange..........
Thunderballs
13-08-2008, 22:50
I think you would find that Virgin have a very strong defense in your signature being on their documents accepting their terms and conditions, and their legal team would take apart any argument you tried to use saying otherwise.
Do you really think any large company would leave themselves open by not adhering to the laws of the land, because if they did they would fail very quickly.
<edit Rob: deleted>
Thousands of big name corporates are taken to court every year and loose or settle out of court.
I am not saying I have a rock solid case but i do think that a ISP should not be able to effectively disconnect your services for any reason they wish without recourse to the 30 day rule - which is effectively what their T&Cs and AUPs seem to allow.
I know if this were to get any where near court I wouldnt necessarily have a straight forward case and the less straightforward it is the more it is going to cost VM to defend which is fine by me.
The thing that has cheesed me off the most in this issue is that VM have designed their customer facing organisations in a such a way that as a customer with a gripe they do not have any satisfactory way of escalating an issue.
If you have a complaint you'll simply be asked to write a letter or fill out a web form and it seems the Internet Security team can pretty much do what they like and then hide behind the wide ranging T&Cs, AUP.
I lodged my complaint about receiving the letter in the first place with Customer Services and I think I am justified in objecting to being sent a standard letter which if i were to simply ignore to keep the peace effectively accepts I have been in breach of the contract.
I may be in the minority on this forum to hold the view that i think it is well beyond VMs legal obligation to respond to an abuse report for an email such as the one in question here and they are acting unfairly.
I am sure the Internet Security team send out a lot of these letters and probably without much thought or investigation simply becasue someone has filed an abuse report but that doesnt excuse a lack of rigour.
If in my case this isnt so and their investigation was rigorous they have done an extremely poor job of communicating that to me and postively evaded specifics.
I found this post, and it's 11 pages of replies so hillarious that I had to sign up.
First off. Laws are in place to ensure that people don't read your e-mail, but let's face it it can and does happen. Bored system admins working on a mail que delay could easily click your message whilst it's in holding on any number of servers. I'm not saying it will happen but don't be naieve and think that it can't!
The smaller the organisation the more likely this is to happen, and with all these 14 year old webhosts on the go I find it highly likely.
Secondly, I have probably sent 2,000+ e-mails containing swears over my Virgin Media connection in the last 10 years. Have I ever received an e-mail, letter or phone call regarding 'abusive conduct'? No. Never.
Of course, I know only to use such language with friends who 'appreciate' it. As for an e-mail sent to a company, if that e-mail had come to my company you can bet I would have traced the IP and complained to virgin.
You know, you can be prosecuted for telling a bus driver to !@#{ off, why do you think the same doesn't apply to e-mails?
Swearing = abusive conduct, especially calling someone an effing a-hole. Sorry but I have no respect for this.
If anyone holding an account with my company swore down my voicemail line after having broken the terms of service, I would cut them off that very second with no refunds and no chance of appeal.
You (or a friend) abuse Virgin staff, you loose your connection.
Thirdly, virgin media must log your voicemail, or they cannot use this against you in a court of law (or any legal proceedings). If you really care, and think you are inocent enough, go to the police and ask them to confirm to Virgin that's not your voice.
And lastly, do you really think you would come close to beating Virgins 20+ lawyers? Really, you're dealing with Richard Effing Branson! The man is one of the richest men in the world, do you think you can beat him?
If you do then good luck, would love to hear the outcome!
chriztopher
18-08-2008, 11:27
Boy this is better than watching Virgin 1! ;)
Can't wait for the next instalment, like many I’m now hooked, as such this is my first post.
I do think there is a bit of the big brother going on here and it’s been dealt with a bit heavy handed ……if it’s all about a single e-mail.
I'd love to know what made the poster so angry that he was silly enough to go and swear at a business / corporation and leave an abusive voicemail.
If your innocent and they still refuse to let you hear the voicemail as previous poster said, go to the police and if you are innocent good luck.
If the reason for posting was to gauge peoples level of sympathy for your plight and whether or not they believe you then my answer is…. Yes I feel sorry for you, but no I don’t believe it wasn’t you writing the mail or leaving the voice message.
All the best.
---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------
I don't think you have any case to bring at all, you think that a ISP should not be able to effectively disconnect your services for any reason they wish without recourse to the 30 day rule. Their justification is your actions, surely you can see that, it's not just for any old reason they wish. If you do something wrong you don't follow it up by doing more wrong and then wonder why you get your knuckles wrapped.
No one is blind here :dozey:
Do you really think any large company would leave themselves open by not adhering to the laws of the land
Absolutely, it happens all the time.
because if they did they would fail very quickly.
Yeah.. right.
And now back to reality.......
I don't think you have any case to bring at all, you think that a ISP should not be able to effectively disconnect your services for any reason they wish without recourse to the 30 day rule. Their justification is your actions, surely you can see that, it's not just for any old reason they wish. If you do something wrong you don't follow it up by doing more wrong and then wonder why you get your knuckles wrapped.
No one is blind here :dozey:
I suspect most ISPs hace clauses that enable them to instantly disconnect someone that breaks the rules. The reason being that if someone is harrassing someone else (and swearing/abusive emails can be considered harrassment), then if that person is given a polite warning to stop, they may actually start threatening (I have actually seen this happen to a student). Where I work (although this isn't an ISP, but I do do support) we can,if we feel a user is abusive, disable their account without warning. If we do that, they have to go to our line manager or head of school to explain why they felt the need to do this.
I have only just come across this thread and all i can say is "Oh dear." :(
Boy this is better than watching Virgin 1! ;)
Can't wait for the next instalment, like many I’m now hooked, :
Same here
Now have a lazy boy chair pulled up to the monitor and some cold ones ready for the next installment of the twilight zone :)
whydoIneedatech
18-08-2008, 14:35
Absolutely, it happens all the time.
Yeah.. right.
And now back to reality.......
OK lets get back to reality.
Virgin have a very well paid legal team that will blow the likes of this out of the water.
Do you really think against a proffesional legal team this could be won.
Reality Check Over.
Legal teams make no difference. Well they do but it's how strong the case is whether they win or not. The case however stands no chance i would really like to see this go to court and see how far it gets.
MovedGoalPosts
18-08-2008, 15:00
The case however stands no chance i would really like to see this go to court and see how far it gets.
I'd rather see court time being restricted to legitimate cases that actually have some merit. There is absolutely no purpose in time wasting that means only the lawyers get rich.
I'd rather see court time being restricted to legitimate cases that actually have some merit. There is absolutely no purpose in time wasting that means only the lawyers get rich.
Well said :tu:
Admin edit (Chris T): Off-topic arguing removed
MovedGoalPosts
18-08-2008, 15:55
Careful please, let's not get personal
whydoIneedatech
18-08-2008, 17:35
Admin edit (Chris T): Do not continue off-topic argument after a moderator has posted a warning. The next one will get an infraction.
Tbh Thunderballs I'd just let it go, it isn't worth the increase in your blood pressure. I'd also apologise; not because there is a demand but because it just isn't nice to be confronted with expletives when you're just doing your job.
Swallow your pride, say sorry and move on. Anything else is just wasting your time. Besides, you have shown your capability here; you don't need foul language to make a point.
I'd rather see court time being restricted to legitimate cases that actually have some merit. There is absolutely no purpose in time wasting that means only the lawyers get rich.
Yeah i agree but sometimes it's just fun to watch:D
---------- Post added at 18:35 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------
Tbh Thunderballs I'd just let it go, it isn't worth the increase in your blood pressure. I'd also apologise; not because there is a demand but because it just isn't nice to be confronted with expletives when you're just doing your job.
Swallow your pride, say sorry and move on. Anything else is just wasting your time. Besides, you have shown your capability here; you don't need foul language to make a point.
No point in apologising really now they have moved to another ISP. It would just make VM look big. I think Thunder should just forget about it swallow their pride and move on that way they will keep their dignity in tact.:)
joglynne
18-08-2008, 18:56
I just love the way this thread just keeps on rolling days after the original OP has left the room. :)
Raistlin
18-08-2008, 18:59
Some people just don't know when to leave well enough alone do they? :D
http://www.geocities.com/o2thx/gladiator/storyline/gladiator119a.jpg
At my signal - unleash hell.......
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