View Full Version : 50mbit or better upload speeds?
InsaneNutter
23-07-2008, 08:20
With all the talk about the upcoming 50mbit service I’m wondering if anyone else would sooner have something like 25mbit download and upload instead of 50mbit download and 1.5mbit upload (i think it was?)
I know would sooner have a decent upload speed, I’m more than happy with the 20mbit download speed I can get now, but I think the upload speeds are in need of some serious attention. Even my parents think it’s like been on dialup with the time it takes to upload some short video’s and photos of family gatherings.
Impz2002
23-07-2008, 09:10
I would much prefer a 25Mbit with maybe 5 - 10Mbit upload !
50 meg is great but only if the upload is set at a decent level. I cant imagine VM actually having the balls to lead the market and offer a fast upstream. They could truly say thier product was unique if they had a 5Mbit upstream as no other resedential provider has that!
Will VM ever learn ? i doubt it :)
Impz
xspeedyx
23-07-2008, 09:12
I would much prefer a higer upload 5Mb would me great but cnt see that happening
AbyssUnderground
23-07-2008, 11:44
I would much prefer a higer upload 5Mb would me great but cnt see that happening
I agree 5-10Mbps upload would be nice, hell even 2.5Mbps to match Be* would be a start, but like you say thats so unlikely why are we even bothered to discuss it? :(
Impz2002
23-07-2008, 12:42
why are we even bothered to discuss it? :(
Because at some point in the future a better upload will have to be offered as the net is getting more and more advanced and the demand for upstream is only going to increase. The Docsis 3 network will enable VM to offer a much better upload in the future and i imagine it will cost them alot less than it would on the current network. Once all the analogue is turned off we will see a massive amout of new frequencys become available.
Its not a case of "if" its a case of "when"
VM Will realise thier mother of all broadband needs a kick up the arse !
Impz
AbyssUnderground
23-07-2008, 13:08
Because at some point in the future a better upload will have to be offered as the net is getting more and more advanced and the demand for upstream is only going to increase. The Docsis 3 network will enable VM to offer a much better upload in the future and i imagine it will cost them alot less than it would on the current network. Once all the analogue is turned off we will see a massive amout of new frequencys become available.
Its not a case of "if" its a case of "when"
VM Will realise thier mother of all broadband needs a kick up the arse !
Impz
The problem is, VM asked people what upstream they'd like and trialled 6Mbps on the 50Mbps trial and then took it away and gave them 1.5Mbps. Why ask if you're not going to take into account what people have asked for? It makes no sense at all and VM have done this very same thing on many occasions. Remember 20Mbps upstream was supposed to be 1.5Mbps, then 1Mbps, now its 768Kbps.
Impz2002
23-07-2008, 13:12
im not saying i agree with VM's choices but they are trying to cut costs in any way they can. what i am saying is that in the long term they cannot afford to keep these slow upload speeds as demand is going to grow for upstream. as soon as the competition hots up VM will respond. I have a feeling we will see a higher upload than 1.5meg on the 50meg !
Nothing is confirmed yet so lets wait and see !
Impz
hokkers999
23-07-2008, 22:59
The problem is, VM asked people what upstream they'd like and trialled 6Mbps on the 50Mbps trial and then took it away and gave them 1.5Mbps. Why ask if you're not going to take into account what people have asked for? It makes no sense at all and VM have done this very same thing on many occasions. Remember 20Mbps upstream was supposed to be 1.5Mbps, then 1Mbps, now its 768Kbps.
I took the 512 kbit service as soon as it was offered, that was 128k UP. ie a 4:1 ratio. So the 50meg should be 12.5 mbit upload to be comparable :dozey:
AbyssUnderground
24-07-2008, 00:49
I took the 512 kbit service as soon as it was offered, that was 128k UP. ie a 4:1 ratio. So the 50meg should be 12.5 mbit upload to be comparable :dozey:
Even a 10:1 radio would make it perfectly acceptable and I'd certainly buy it.
InsaneNutter
24-07-2008, 10:08
So the reason upload speeds are so slow is basically to save money? I have always wondered this. It sounds hard to believe it’s cheaper to offer 50mbit down then 20mbit with say 5-10mbit upload.
I’ve had NTL/Virgin since 2001 and the download speed has gone from 512kbps to 20mbps yet the upload speed has only gone from 128kbps to 768kbps.
I would love the option to offload download speed for upload speed
i.e take say 25mb for 10mb up or 5mbit up
really need better upload
im always uploading and its soooo slow its crazy!!
very hard to maintain all my websites / backups etc with such a slow upload
Not gonna happen.
Maximum any of you will see on 50Mbit is 2.5Mbit upload.
Though it's still set to launch with 1.5Mbit
Maybe i'll eat my hat and they'll launch it with 6Mbit upload and STM free.
Maybe elvis isnt dead, either.
xspeedyx
24-07-2008, 13:17
Not gonna happen.
Maximum any of you will see on 50Mbit is 2.5Mbit upload.
Though it's still set to launch with 1.5Mbit
Maybe i'll eat my hat and they'll launch it with 6Mbit upload and STM free.
Maybe elvis isnt dead, either.
LOL
1.5M is the absolute minimum you can get away with for 50M down. Any less and there simply will not be enough bandwidth to actually download at 50M, since to download you also need to upload reciprocal ACK packets and other management info.
If you do the maths, you can see that on 20meg you need about 550k absolute minimum to sustain that kind of speed down, which with overhead comes to a bit more.
Really, if they want 50meg to work as advertised (i.e. multiple simultaneous users all doing different stuff, including sending emails/uploading photos/gaming/iPlayer or other actions that generally cause outgoing traffic) then 1.5M is not enough. 5M might be closer to realistic for that kind of usage.
Hopefully eventually we will see fibre optic internet available with 100/100 symmetrical connections, but until then upload speeds are likely to remain ridiculous due to lack of competition.
Impz2002
25-07-2008, 15:38
Maybe elvis isnt dead, either.
Everyone knows Elvis is alive and kicking ! he designed DOCSIS 3 !
Impz
Zhadnost
25-07-2008, 15:45
Well you never know, we may be pleasantly surprised when they've finally unified the network and gone through the analogue switch off.
Impz2002
25-07-2008, 16:06
Well you never know, we may be pleasantly surprised when they've finally unified the network and gone through the analogue switch off.
My sentiments exactly. VM deserve a clean break and i think they are doing the right thing by investing in new technology instead of trying to fix the current out dated stuff ! a little pain now will reap great rewards in the future especially as there are still no major plans for BT's Fibre. I know they have said they are rolling out fibre in certain area's but the coverage will be nothing compared to Virgin's potential market. And lets remember folks that DOCSIS 3 can provide a symetrical 100mbps (or more!) link should VM ever decide to launch it.
DOCSIS 3 is the key!
Impz
Zhadnost
25-07-2008, 17:09
Yeah, so no moaning about a company whose Senior VP, Divisional lives in New York and last year got $625,173 (including over $500,000 in options).
They also have another director who lives on Rhode Island and last year got $621,492 and is clearly a busy man being the MD of an investment Capital Management firm, an entertainment management company director and the director of a company that sells prescription drugs.
A thoroughly British company. (which in their 2007 annual report stated that "We may not be able to fund our debt service obligations through operating cash flow in the future.").
Still, to get back on topic. Even if the 50Mbit service is only launched with 1.5Mbit upstream, I can't imagine it will stay that way for very long.
My sentiments exactly. VM deserve a clean break and i think they are doing the right thing by investing in new technology instead of trying to fix the current out dated stuff ! a little pain now will reap great rewards in the future especially as there are still no major plans for BT's Fibre. I know they have said they are rolling out fibre in certain area's but the coverage will be nothing compared to Virgin's potential market. And lets remember folks that DOCSIS 3 can provide a symetrical 100mbps (or more!) link should VM ever decide to launch it.
DOCSIS 3 is the key!
Impz
1)They are not rolling out docsis3, it's predocsis3, there is a difference (albeit not much)
2)They cant afford to rollout docsis3, they hit their budget and went straight over it within a month
3)It's going to take 2-3 years to fully roll out docsis3 as half of the network needs a complete overhaul.
4)As for BT, well, alot you dont know about that ;)
5)Yes, docsis3 can provide 100Mbit symetrical, providing the network is in good shape, you dont over subscribe AND you have good network link ups, which VM do not, they are only just upgrading to 40G link ups, poor and will need upgrading yet again in the future.
6)50MBit is set to launch with STM, they are just undecided on the limits, are you seriously going to pay a high price for a premium product which your only allowed to use for 20 minutes?
Then there is the poor upload rates which they are going to supply with it, making them have the worst down/up ratio in the whole of the UK!
icestar2
25-07-2008, 17:47
Maybe elvis isnt dead, either.
He aint dead he just went home !
6)50MBit is set to launch with STM, they are just undecided on the limits, are you seriously going to pay a high price for a premium product which your only allowed to use for 20 minutes?
Then there is the poor upload rates which they are going to supply with it, making them have the worst down/up ratio in the whole of the UK!
I think those are the key points here - 50meg is going to be very expensive, so only people who really want to download a lot will bother with it, only you are not going to be able to download a lot with it...
Some people will argue that outside of STM times you will be able to hammer it, but as already pointed out the upload speed to too low to make it a realistic option. It also misses the point that many people will want it to do HD streaming at peak times, or that I'd say the chances of actually getting 50meg when VM struggle to supply 20 are pretty low.
The worst thing about all this is that it will be taken as a sign that no-one wants higher speed broadband in the UK. Well, to be fair, I think a lot of people want no STM and a better upload speed before they want a higher download speed. If I lived nearer to the exchange I'd switch to Be in an instant - as it is I'm thinking of trying it anyway. 2.5meg upload sounds nice.
With all the talk about the upcoming 50mbit service I’m wondering if anyone else would sooner have something like 25mbit download and upload instead of 50mbit download and 1.5mbit upload (i think it was?)
I know would sooner have a decent upload speed, I’m more than happy with the 20mbit download speed I can get now, but I think the upload speeds are in need of some serious attention. Even my parents think it’s like been on dialup with the time it takes to upload some short video’s and photos of family gatherings.
C'mon the upload speed. Am happy with the 20MB down. Most times i need the UP STREAM MORE. Totally agree with you there.
But i won't knock back 50 down and 25 up lol lol ...
How about 512kb/s down and 49.5Mb/s up? ;)
Zaim7890
25-07-2008, 21:58
How about 512kb/s down and 49.5Mb/s up? ;)
lol, maybe in 2020 :P
49.5mb up would be brill and leave us with the 20mb down, mmmm like the sound of that.
Zaim7890
25-07-2008, 23:04
what would be gd is:
DL UL
2mbit - 512kbps
10mbit - 2mbit
20mbit - 4mbit
^ that would be better, but knowing vm thats not gunna happen
Dont know how true this is, but i was once told by an ex ntl employee that if 50% of the custmers were uploading at full speed it would crash the network. Guess it make some sense given the poor upload rates we recieve, and small increases in up speed.
Dont know how true this is, but i was once told by an ex ntl employee that if 50% of the custmers were uploading at full speed it would crash the network. Guess it make some sense given the poor upload rates we recieve, and small increases in up speed.
Its all down to money... What they want to give you and when they want to give you it am sure.....// The tech is out there....
Ricksta7
30-07-2008, 10:12
I am roughly getting Upstream of 180kbps on 2Mbit package... Quite low, but as you all rightly say, I would much prefer fasdter upload speeds as apose to download speeds.
broadbandbug
12-10-2008, 16:42
Dont know how true this is, but i was once told by an ex ntl employee that if 50% of the custmers were uploading at full speed it would crash the network. Guess it make some sense given the poor upload rates we recieve, and small increases in up speed.
It would not crash the network.. The upstream ports would probably be in congestion that is all.:D
---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:32 ----------
1)They are not rolling out docsis3, it's predocsis3, there is a difference (albeit not much)
2)They cant afford to rollout docsis3, they hit their budget and went straight over it within a month
3)It's going to take 2-3 years to fully roll out docsis3 as half of the network needs a complete overhaul.
4)As for BT, well, alot you dont know about that ;)
5)Yes, docsis3 can provide 100Mbit symetrical, providing the network is in good shape, you dont over subscribe AND you have good network link ups, which VM do not, they are only just upgrading to 40G link ups, poor and will need upgrading yet again in the future.
6)50MBit is set to launch with STM, they are just undecided on the limits, are you seriously going to pay a high price for a premium product which your only allowed to use for 20 minutes?
Then there is the poor upload rates which they are going to supply with it, making them have the worst down/up ratio in the whole of the UK!
1. VM are rolling out EuroDoCSIS 3.0.. It is not pre-DoCSIS 3 at all!
2. AFAIK VM are still within its budget for 50Mb/s rollout. Latest announcement to NASDAQ confirmed this.
3. 50Mb/s will be available to all customers within 12 months. You don't need to overhaul the network to rollout Euro D3.0.. You may need to do work to get the most out of it:)
5. Core uplinks has nothing to do with ability to provide very fast upstreams.. The requirement will be to support QAM64 in the upstream which as Trax is correct to point out will require large amounts of work in the HFC network.
6. Some people will be quite happy to be able to use 50Mb/s for what ever limit they have during the day/evening just to get 50Mb/s for the overnight downloading:D
I still think that the initial upload speed will quite rapidly evolve to something more suitable/acceptable, but we will have to see won't we?:D
Ignitionnet
12-10-2008, 17:05
Dont know how true this is, but i was once told by an ex ntl employee that if 50% of the custmers were uploading at full speed it would crash the network. Guess it make some sense given the poor upload rates we recieve, and small increases in up speed.
It would also result in the sun falling from the Sky, the moon descending onto the oceans and causing a huge tsunami, and Sarah Palin to seem intelligent :angel:
Nah it would make virtually every connection on the network rather slow and cause some disconnections in some areas which are severely saturated, but wouldn't crash the entire network. Remember the network is very localised. The bandwidth you are using may not be the same as next door, and the uplinks from the CMTSes are certainly able to handle upstream saturation.
I still think that the initial upload speed will quite rapidly evolve to something more suitable/acceptable, but we will have to see won't we?:D
How long do you think it will take for them to increase the upload speed? Even if it is by a small amount to like 2mbit up. Do you think they would increase it in the space of say 12 months after the launch?
cook1984
12-10-2008, 23:47
I'd take a 10/10 symmetrical connection.
broadbandbug
13-10-2008, 19:04
How long do you think it will take for them to increase the upload speed? Even if it is by a small amount to like 2mbit up. Do you think they would increase it in the space of say 12 months after the launch?
I would say that well within 12 months VM will be trialling higher upload speeds..
It will increase significantly over time, but it will be small steps once they go above 2.5Mb/s.
I would say that well within 12 months VM will be trialling higher upload speeds..
It will increase significantly over time, but it will be small steps once they go above 2.5Mb/s.
Maybe it will be another 4 year trial like 50Mbit :)
Upload is set to go to 2.5Mbit in late 09, early 2010.
So you're going to be waiting years to get good upload here :rolleyes:
Then there is future STM etc, complete waste of time!
cook1984
13-10-2008, 23:30
Upload is set to go to 2.5Mbit in late 09, early 2010.
Hmm, that could tempt me back maybe, assuming you are talking about one of the more reasonably priced packages because £50/month for 2.5 up is silly.
Then there is future STM etc, complete waste of time!
Oh, forget it then...
Impz2002
14-10-2008, 00:07
against my better judgement i am seriously considering signing up for 50meg. i know the massive flaws in the package but it is the fastest thats viable for me and the extra upload wouldnt go amiss.
Impz
Hmm, that could tempt me back maybe, assuming you are talking about one of the more reasonably priced packages because £50/month for 2.5 up is silly.
Only for 50Mbit, uploads are not increasing for other tiers.
Oh, forget it then...
Indeed, luckily i leave the UK in april for a much much better life in france and with 100Mbit symetrical for 60euro/m.
---------- Post added at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:27 ----------
against my better judgement i am seriously considering signing up for 50meg. i know the massive flaws in the package but it is the fastest thats viable for me and the extra upload wouldnt go amiss.
Impz
Fastest, for 20 Minutes, it may be worth it while there isnt STM on it, but once there is, you may as well be on 10Mbit adsl as downloads will still be finished in the morning.
broadbandbug
14-10-2008, 18:59
Maybe it will be another 4 year trial like 50Mbit :)
Upload is set to go to 2.5Mbit in late 09, early 2010.
So you're going to be waiting years to get good upload here :rolleyes:
Then there is future STM etc, complete waste of time!
It will be in trial way before end 09;)
It will be in trial way before end 09;)
I know that, but it isnt going to be rolled out till late 09, early 2010 ;)
broadbandbug
14-10-2008, 19:04
Only for 50Mbit, uploads are not increasing for other tiers.
Indeed, luckily i leave the UK in april for a much much better life in france and with 100Mbit symetrical for 60euro/m.
---------- Post added at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:27 ----------
Fastest, for 20 Minutes, it may be worth it while there isnt STM on it, but once there is, you may as well be on 10Mbit adsl as downloads will still be finished in the morning.
Uploads will increase for other tiers.. Remember other Tiers are being migrated to DoCSIS 2.0/3.0 so will be able to make use of higher modulation schemes as they become available.
---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 19:01 ----------
Only for 50Mbit, uploads are not increasing for other tiers.
Indeed, luckily i leave the UK in april for a much much better life in france and with 100Mbit symetrical for 60euro/m.
---------- Post added at 00:27 ---------- Previous post was at 00:27 ----------
Fastest, for 20 Minutes, it may be worth it while there isnt STM on it, but once there is, you may as well be on 10Mbit adsl as downloads will still be finished in the morning.
I know that, but it isnt going to be rolled out till late 09, early 2010 ;)
I think it will start rolling out earlier than that.. But we will see.
xspeedyx
14-10-2008, 19:10
Not to forget the analogue switch off will enable more frequrencies to be used which will help the bandwidth vm dont have
Uploads will increase for other tiers.. Remember other Tiers are being migrated to DoCSIS 2.0/3.0 so will be able to make use of higher modulation schemes as they become available.
Really? as far as i'm aware only the 20MBit tier is being moved over to docsis3 with the others staying on docsis1? hmm interesting, will check up on that.
Still, not use in higher upload speeds when you have STM anyway, just another way for you to get speed capped even quicker.
I think it will start rolling out earlier than that.. But we will see.
Have you seen VM's track record for keeping with dates ;)
whydoIneedatech
14-10-2008, 19:24
Have you seen VM's track record for keeping with dates ;)
Yes they rolled out 10mb by the end of the third quarter as promised.:D:D:rofl::rofl::rofl:
EVENTUALLY
Yes they rolled out 10mb by the end of the third quarter as promised.:D:D:rofl::rofl::rofl:
EVENTUALLY
That's cheating, they didnt do the upgrades required! they just rolled the configs out! :p::cool::angel:;)
whydoIneedatech
14-10-2008, 19:35
That's cheating, they didnt do the upgrades required! they just rolled the configs out! :p::cool::angel:;)
Bet you laughed at it.;)
broadbandbug
16-10-2008, 19:07
Really? as far as i'm aware only the 20MBit tier is being moved over to docsis3 with the others staying on docsis1? hmm interesting, will check up on that.
Still, not use in higher upload speeds when you have STM anyway, just another way for you to get speed capped even quicker.
Have you seen VM's track record for keeping with dates ;)
Current plans only include 20Mb/s migrating to DoCSIS 3.0.. But do you really think VM are going to continue to buy DoCSIS 1.0 equipment?
They will invest only in D3.0 going forward so will migrate more and more onto that technology as it offers the lowest cost per port.:)
Bet you laughed at it.;)
laughed at the thought of customers complaining over slow speeds now they had been upgraded, did not take long for them posts to appear either ;)
---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------
Current plans only include 20Mb/s migrating to DoCSIS 3.0.. But do you really think VM are going to continue to buy DoCSIS 1.0 equipment?
They will invest only in D3.0 going forward so will migrate more and more onto that technology as it offers the lowest cost per port.:)
Been told 'no plans' so far, but you never know with VM, change their mind more than a woman with PMT.
I remember them not being able to upgrade to docsis2 because most of the network couldnt handle it, due to lack of maintanence(sp?).
Been told 'deffinately not happening' to upload going up on the lower tiers though ;)
whydoIneedatech
16-10-2008, 19:37
laughed at the thought of customers complaining over slow speeds now they had been upgraded, did not take long for them posts to appear either ;)
I wish more would ring in to complain as 10 or 20 people on here complaining is a drop in the ocean, to get anything done you need a lot more people calling in to complain about their speeds and maybe then something will get done.
cook1984
20-10-2008, 20:24
I wish more would ring in to complain as 10 or 20 people on here complaining is a drop in the ocean, to get anything done you need a lot more people calling in to complain about their speeds and maybe then something will get done.
The problem is that VM now assume anyone calling up to complain is just after a discount, because so many people do it.
Not that I'm blaming those people getting discounts, mind.
whydoIneedatech
20-10-2008, 20:27
The problem is that VM now assume anyone calling up to complain is just after a discount, because so many people do it.
Not that I'm blaming those people getting discounts, mind.
Then if those people back down and accept a discount then Virgin have won, if you ring up to complain then you should have the integrity to follow it through.;)
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