View Full Version : How fast is copper?
I assume that with Virgin Media it's only fibre to the little box in front of the house and rest (to the modem etc) is copper .
With Livingstone wanting to lay fibre to the home and 100mbs speeds. Will Virgin Media be held back because their fiber does not reach the modem etc
it's as fast as you want it to be.
This one is pretty fast - 225 MPH!
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/72.jpg (http://www.gizmag.com/go/6555/)
Raistlin
16-07-2008, 13:48
I didn't think that the fibre even got as far as the box at the front of the house? Thought it was copper all the way from the exchange?
I didn't think that the fibre even got as far as the box at the front of the house? Thought it was copper all the way from the exchange?
if i remember correctly, it is and it isn't.
I assume that with Virgin Media it's only fibre to the little box in front of the house and rest (to the modem etc) is copper .
With Livingstone wanting to lay fibre to the home and 100mbs speeds.
Both your assumption and your understanding of BT's proposal are incorrect.
Will Virgin Media be held back because their fiber does not reach the modem etc
No.
Of all the things that might hold VM back, not having fibre to the home is irrelevant.
Welshchris
16-07-2008, 14:14
This one is pretty fast - 225 MPH!
http://www.gizmag.com/pictures/6555_6120643925.jpg (http://www.gizmag.com/go/6555/)
i was thinking the same when i read the subject LOL!
whydoIneedatech
16-07-2008, 14:20
Depends how fast the van is!!
bmxbandit
16-07-2008, 14:25
I assume that with Virgin Media it's only fibre to the little box in front of the house and rest (to the modem etc) is copper .
With Livingstone wanting to lay fibre to the home and 100mbs speeds. Will Virgin Media be held back because their fiber does not reach the modem etc
BT are only doing FTTH for new builds, so similar really. 100mbps no problem for the existing VM wiring, with DOCSIS 3.0.
it's as fast as you want it to be.
No true at all, at higher frequencies and signalling speeds, mutual inductance/capacitance, quality of cable joins, and an inreased susceptibility to noise becomes a restricting factor.
There will always be physical and electrical limits to which compression/encoding techniques have no answer.
The copper on VM only starts at the box at the endf of the road, from there onwards to the exchange it's fibre.
The new 50Mb will run on the copper easy enough (not sure what the docsis 3 limit is)..
One thing to note that the copper VM uses (i.e. co-axial cable) is totally different than the copper that BT uses (2 core flat non-shielded) with the co-avial cable able to cope with higher frequencies, less loss and hence a higher bandwidth for the short run that it's used on.
Kymmy
Graham M
16-07-2008, 14:44
170meg for 4 channel bonded and 340ish for 8 channel if I remember correctly!
handyman
16-07-2008, 15:01
The copper on VM only starts at the box at the endf of the road, from there onwards to the exchange it's fibre.
The new 50Mb will run on the copper easy enough (not sure what the docsis 3 limit is)..
Almost there...
Local headend - local hub site - type 3 cab - type 2 cab - optional type 1 - box outside house.
It is fibre to the type 3 and copper thereafter. The smaller waist height type 2 cabs at the end of the road are basically big junction box's with a amplifier. From the type 2 is a Siamese (telco and coax) cable to the box on the outside of your house.
The optional type 1 cabs are used to extend the reach of the type 2's where putting a full on type 2 is not feasible.
Kymmy is also right in that the copper Virgin use is very superior to BT's telco copper. That cable holds many channels of broadband and 200+ (1meg) TV channels.
This is the type 2 that you see at the end of most streets.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/1.jpg?v=0
On the bottom right at the cables for TV/Broadband on the top right is the telco stuff. I've not seen cab's like this in Teesside though and they used black cables, perhaps this is an old pic. In the centre is the amp and from this is a thicker coax cable to the type 3 cab.
PeteTheMusicGuy
16-07-2008, 15:07
How fast is the copper? Depends on the bloke who is stealing it ;)
Just had a mailing from VM all about the Mother of all Broadbands or whatever... extolling the virtues of their "optical cable" system...
Graham M
16-07-2008, 18:13
Yeah they love playing on that :)
indie1982
16-07-2008, 19:30
Yeah seems like their advertising is very close to the bone. They think they can say that their broadband is fiber optic because part of their network uses it. Surely BT could do the same, I'm sure part of their network uses fiber too!
demented
16-07-2008, 19:50
Almost there...
Local headend - local hub site - type 3 cab - type 2 cab - optional type 1 - box outside house.
It is fibre to the type 3 and copper thereafter. The smaller waist height type 2 cabs at the end of the road are basically big junction box's with a amplifier. From the type 2 is a Siamese (telco and coax) cable to the box on the outside of your house.
The optional type 1 cabs are used to extend the reach of the type 2's where putting a full on type 2 is not feasible.
Kymmy is also right in that the copper Virgin use is very superior to BT's telco copper. That cable holds many channels of broadband and 200+ (1meg) TV channels.
This is the type 2 that you see at the end of most streets.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/1.jpg?v=0
On the bottom right at the cables for TV/Broadband on the top right is the telco stuff. I've not seen cab's like this in Teesside though and they used black cables, perhaps this is an old pic. In the centre is the amp and from this is a thicker coax cable to the type 3 cab.
Fantastic post. Yes I've heard that but I'd also like to add that not all of the BT network is even copper. I have a mate who has broadband not so far away and it's mostly aluminium up there. No we don't live out in the sticks, if we were both using the BT exchange we'd be on an extremely large and oversubsubscribed urban exchange that has quite a few aluminium lines. On my road about two years ago BT redid a lot of those on BT because although we weren't aluminium it was believed to be very shoddy.
the last 3-5 hundred mtrs is all copper to most vm customers dont believe all the hype
Phormic Acid
16-07-2008, 21:26
One thing to note that the copper VM uses (i.e. co-axial cable) is totally different than the copper that BT uses (2 core flat non-shielded) with the co-avial cable able to cope with higher frequencies, less loss and hence a higher bandwidth for the short run that it's used on.Yes, just think how far DSL has taken POTS cable. There’s plenty of room left in coaxial, between the bandwidth of today and the limit of what’s achievable.
Get tests super broadband (http://www.itavisen.no/php/art.php?id=358826) (Norwegian)
Even at speeds of up to 300 Mbit/s, we use only a fraction of the capacity available in the modern coaxial cable going out to customers. This gives an exciting perspective on the possibilities for all households connected to the Get infrastructure, says Get CEO Gunnar Evensen in a press release
I assume that with Virgin Media it's only fibre to the little box in front of the house and rest (to the modem etc) is copper .
With Livingstone wanting to lay fibre to the home and 100mbs speeds. Will Virgin Media be held back because their fiber does not reach the modem etc
http://www.edn.com/archives/1996/112196/24_df01.htm
Nedkelly
17-07-2008, 06:26
There are other ways of making the copper faster on the bb/tv side ie dual docis changing the qam .Also the quality of build is a big factor Diamond cable in the areas they built looked into the future but there are parts of the country where the build was not as good .:)
A key difference that has been pointed out already and can't be stressed enough, is that both VM and BT do use copper cable, but as pointed out, BT use twisted pair, VM use co-ax. Co-ax has mmany times the signal/frequency range of twisted copper pair.
Twisted copper pair is a balanced transmission line and relies on the "twist" for ingress/egress of signals, that puts a fairly low limit on the maximum frequency for a start. Co-ax does not suffer from this problem and has a much wider(100's of Mhz wider) it is also an unbalanced transmission line that depends on a grounded screen(the co-ax outer) for ingress/egress shielding. That said, and again has been mentioned already, the quality of the build is essential. Bad connectios on either VM or BT's setup can lead to unwanted signal ingress/egress and also frequency mixing, basically you feed in two signals to a junction, the two signals come out the other side extra frequencies the sum and difference of the two original ones.
RF engineering isn't a simple subject, and the answer to everything isn't in compression/encoding, as i've said before, there are physical and electrical limits that no amount of number crunching will get round.
rf engineering isn't a simple subject, and the answer to everything isn't in compression/encoding, as i've said before, there are physical and electrical limits that no amount of number crunching will get round.
-.-. .- .-.. .-.. ... .. --. -. ..--..
just asking if he's got a radio callsign
Kymmy
Well Jon, how would you classify Twinax then? ;)
===
Both copper and fibre can be used for 10 Gigabit Ethernet - but fibre is more suited to longer distances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_gigabit_Ethernet
====
According to El Reg, it seems likely that most BT installations will actually be Fibre-To-The-Cabinet (FTTC) where the last few metres will still be in copper - just like VM.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/15/bt_fibre_spending/
zing_deleted
17-07-2008, 10:01
How fast is the copper? Depends on the bloke who is stealing it ;)
if its the pikeys round here its lightning
-.-. .- .-.. .-.. ... .. --. -. ..--..
just asking if he's got a radio callsign
Kymmy
-- .. -. . .. ... -- .---- -.-. -... ....
Ok, I cheated and used an online morse converter(I was a Class B trying to learn morse when they took the reqirement away), but it's no secret around these parts that me and several other members i've come across are Amateur Radio licencees.
BTW, to any interested non morse readers, my callsign's M1CBH.
LOL, Same here, just a simple little classB (well not full/advanced licence holder), hence my original post about co-axial v paired transmission lines ;)
Kymmy
LOL, Same here, just a simple little classB (well not full/advanced licence holder), hence my original post about co-axial v paired transmission lines ;)
Kymmy
Yaesu FT-80c ? :)
Yaesu FT-80c ? :)
abc def
Errr, yes
Now I know that's on one of my profiles on the ham forums ;)
hokkers999
23-07-2008, 17:33
I assume that with Virgin Media it's only fibre to the little box in front of the house and rest (to the modem etc) is copper .
With Livingstone wanting to lay fibre to the home and 100mbs speeds. Will Virgin Media be held back because their fiber does not reach the modem etc
Copper ethernet happily reaches 1 gigabit, so I wouldn't worry too much about that being the limiting factor just for the moment.
Copper ethernet happily reaches 1 gigabit, so I wouldn't worry too much about that being the limiting factor just for the moment.
It works at 10 gigabits too - see post #25.
Copper will probably run even faster than that, but not much point as the higher you go the higher the bandwidth and the higher the loss. Not much point in sending 1 terrabit speeds if you can only do it for a few metres
Kymmy
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