View Full Version : T&Cs and contract law
If you inform VM that you do not accept the changes in the Terms and Conditions. they either have to keep you on the old terms before the changes, or cancel your contract with themselves by giving you 30 days notice.
Once they have been informed by yourself that you do not accept the changes they have made. they can't hold you to them. they have to do one of the above. they can't automatically sign you up to the new terms if they are not acceptable to you.
If you want to cancel your contract that you are still tied to with them, then you can do it the easy way and contact them telling them that you do not accept the new terms and you want out.
They have to let you go, they can't hold you to the rest of the term of the contract and they cannot penalise you either for ending the contract early.
It has to be said that you only have a certain amount of time to inform them of not accepting the changes, this is usually around 30 days after the new terms have been published. that is one reason why they do not make any effort to let you know of any changes they have made.
Also note that if they persuade you to stay with them by means of a special offer, then these usually mean you entering a fresh 12 months contract, and also means that you accept all changes to the T&Cs.
note to admin - this is about changes to the T&Cs in general. not just to do with Phorm :)
The only option you have is to cancel.
It is section J3 of Virgin's Terms (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html)
If:
we and/or Virgin Media Payments increase our charges under this agreement;
we make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
we and/or Virgin Media Payments make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving us at least 30 days' notice in writing. If you cancel any services in these circumstances, the increased charges will not apply to those services during the 30 day notice period and paragraph J2 will not apply if you cancel before the end of the minimum period. If you do not give us notice of cancellation within 30 days of any increase in charges or changes to the services or this agreement being notified to you or, if later, receipt of your first bill following such increase in charges, we and Virgin Media Payments will assume that you have accepted the increase in charges and the changes to the services and this agreement and you will no longer be able to cancel your services under this paragraph.
LostintheNW
12-05-2008, 13:59
As long as they notify you of such changes - such as the nice new traffic management system which I have yet to recieve any formal notification from the stupid company itself! They seem to update the T&C's then politely tell you some 6 months down the line they are available on the website in their updated format - not what I call being notified in advance
The only option you have is to cancel.
It is section J3 of Virgin's Terms (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html)
.
That is the main option, and that is why they would have to give you the notice themselves after you have informed them of non acceptance.
---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------
As long as they notify you of such changes - such as the nice new traffic management system which I have yet to recieve any formal notification from the stupid company itself! They seem to update the T&C's then politely tell you some 6 months down the line they are available on the website in their updated format - not what I call being notified in advance
They think that publishing it on their website is sufficient enough. and how wrong they are. especially as there is no clue as to there being any changes made at all.
That is the main option, and that is why they would have to give you the notice themselves after you have informed them of non acceptance.
Eh? You tell Virgin your non-acceptance by giving them 30 days notice. That is it. It is not Virgin giving you notice.
They think that publishing it on their website is sufficient enough. and how wrong they are. especially as there is no clue as to there being any changes made at all.
The latest price changes were on the website AND sent out in the post to everyone
The latest price changes were on the website AND sent out in the post to everyone
Well they would have to tell everyone about price changes, wouldn't they. they are not a change to terms and conditions.
And the STM is covered by this bit of the T&Cs
We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the interactive services on your Virgin TV and/or Internet access. In the event that you exceed any usage allowance applicable to your Internet access or your use does not comply with the 'acceptable use policy' which you can read on the Virgin Media website, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet access. During any time of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your original level of Internet access charge. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet access to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge. If we make such changes we will notify you as soon as possible.
Which hasn't changed
LostintheNW
12-05-2008, 16:28
And the STM is covered by this bit of the T&Cs
Which hasn't changed
When I took the internet back in the day from this shower of shoddyness I was not given any notice of any terms and conditions, nor was there any usage allowance....since there is a usage allowance they should stop advertising it as an unlimited service.
The T&C must have been changed to cover the STM service anyway as this was something that was not around awhile ago
The clause I have posted has been in the T&Cs since Feb 2007 (Section B, Part 4i). This was when the T&Cs were reissued in writing to all customers as part of the Virgin Media rebranding communications
This link is to the terms at that point http://web.archive.org/web/20070214144746/http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
LostintheNW
12-05-2008, 16:48
The clause I have posted has been in the T&Cs since Feb 2007 (Section B, Part 4i). This was when the T&Cs were reissued in writing to all customers as part of the Virgin Media rebranding communications
This link is to the terms at that point http://web.archive.org/web/20070214144746/http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
We never got that :) much like we never get anything that involves a change of any terms and conditions.
The company is useless at issuing any form of communications to its customers, yet loves to throw them in your face when you don't know anything about them.
Roll on when everything is sorted and I can make the call and tell VM to collect its worthless junk from my house.
pip08456
13-05-2008, 03:49
We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the interactive services on your Virgin TV and/or Internet access. In the event that you exceed any usage allowance applicable to your Internet access or your use does not comply with the 'acceptable use policy' which you can read on the Virgin Media website, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet access. During any time of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your original level of Internet access charge. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet access to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge. If we make such changes we will notify you as soon as possible.
That last sentence is a reason for non-acceptance and immediate cancellation without penalty.
If we make such changes we will notify you as soon as possible.
That last sentence is a reason for non-acceptance and immediate cancellation without penalty.
They really do think that you reading it on their website is all that is required on their part. there isn't any clue that anything has changed. you are expected to read it from start to finish and compare it with last weeks which you won't have because it has been over written by this weeks.
What they are doing is very deceiving and could amount to fraud.
why won't they save themselves any legal challenge and send a postal copy to everyone? other companies mange to do it no problem. it's not as if they are changing them every 5 minutes, and have anything to hide.
Could this extract from The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 have some bearing on the fact that T&C's are being changed and no written notification is being given to the customers that it will affect.
Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083
The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999
Regulation 5(5)
INDICATIVE AND NON-EXHAUSTIVE LIST OF TERMS WHICH MAY BE REGARDED AS UNFAIR
1. Terms which have the object or effect of-
(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;
LostintheNW
13-05-2008, 10:59
In order to be bound by any changes to any contract you have to have been made aware and all opprtunity to agree or not agree to them, if you are not notified you cannot be bound by them as you are deemed to have no knowledge - in order for a contract to be binding there has to be offer and acceptance - without the notification there is no offer for you to accept
There have not been any changes to the written T&Cs. STM was introduced but that is already covered by the T&C clause I posted
whydoIneedatech
13-05-2008, 12:03
Do any of you really think a Major Telecom Company such as Virgin Media will leave any potential loopholes in their contracts.
Have a read of the T&C to check.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/index.html
Do any of you really think a Major Telecom Company such as Virgin Media will leave any potential loopholes in their contracts.
Have a read of the T&C to check.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/index.html
exactly, i'm sure any changes to T&Cs for *any* company are legally checked by a number of lawyers yet the average joe thinks he knows more about the legal system
LostintheNW
13-05-2008, 14:01
exactly, i'm sure any changes to T&Cs for *any* company are legally checked by a number of lawyers yet the average joe thinks he knows more about the legal system
Lol sorry this average Joe being a lawyer and all that....guess I know nothing about contract when I had to study the subject in order to do my job :)
Regardless of when the T&C's were updated I for a fact have never recieved any notification of this, therefore I can legally challenge any enforceability against me, unless of course Virigin send me notification via say special delivery which I have to sign for so they have record I have recieved and therefore been notified of any changes.
Anyway rather than argue about the uselessness of this said company I for one am off from their network and going to be giving my money to someone who is slightly better at CS and value for money
whydoIneedatech
13-05-2008, 14:07
Lol sorry this average Joe being a lawyer and all that....guess I know nothing about contract when I had to study the subject in order to do my job :)
Regardless of when the T&C's were updated I for a fact have never recieved any notification of this, therefore I can legally challenge any enforceability against me, unless of course Virigin send me notification via say special delivery which I have to sign for so they have record I have recieved and therefore been notified of any changes.
Anyway rather than argue about the uselessness of this said company I for one am off from their network and going to be giving my money to someone who is slightly better at CS and value for money
Good luck with your you Provider.
You just know that such a big company could weasel out of any Lawsuit purely because of Financial Clout,.
Regardless of when the T&C's were updated I for a fact have never recieved any notification of this, therefore I can legally challenge any enforceability against me, unless of course Virigin send me notification via say special delivery which I have to sign for so they have record I have recieved and therefore been notified of any changes.
It is amazing how that is peoples attitude when Virgin send them something i.e. 'Just because you sent you must prove I DID get it'
When however, customers send Virgin payments/disconnection notices it's 'I sent it therefore you must prove you DIDN'T get it'
LostintheNW
14-05-2008, 08:50
It is amazing how that is peoples attitude when Virgin send them something i.e. 'Just because you sent you must prove I DID get it'
When however, customers send Virgin payments/disconnection notices it's 'I sent it therefore you must prove you DIDN'T get it'
:rolleyes: spoken like a true virgin employee :)
When its something as important as changes to someones terms and conditions of a contract they should ensure that it is sent and delivered to the people it affects - then again when have Virgin cared about their customers?
whydoIneedatech
14-05-2008, 09:45
:rolleyes: spoken like a true virgin employee :)
When its something as important as changes to someones terms and conditions of a contract they should ensure that it is sent and delivered to the people it affects - then again when have Virgin cared about their customers?
If you are so confident of how right you are then prove it with a Legal Challenge against Virgin, I know who I would have my money on winning the one with the very large legal team, and that is not you.
Prove me wrong and try.
hammered
14-05-2008, 10:00
Hmm, I take it you aren't abrest with the situation with the High Street Banks then...
Just because a company might have a very large legal team, doesn't mean that they are :
a) going to naturally win
and
b) not actually correct with their own legal terms...
Hmm, I take it you aren't abrest with the situation with the High Street Banks then...
Just because a company might have a very large legal team, doesn't mean that they are :
a) going to naturally win
and
b) not actually correct with their own legal terms...
Exactly. some people think that the big man versus the little man, and the big man will win and the big man is right. all bow down to the big man :D
---------- Post added at 10:34 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------
It is amazing how that is peoples attitude when Virgin send them something i.e. 'Just because you sent you must prove I DID get it'
When however, customers send Virgin payments/disconnection notices it's 'I sent it therefore you must prove you DIDN'T get it'
I think people would have the intelligence to send it recorded or special delivery. just so to be sure they can't say we didn't receive it, or it's not showing on our system and the person you spoke to has died now anyway.
whydoIneedatech
14-05-2008, 11:14
Hmm, I take it you aren't abrest with the situation with the High Street Banks then...
Just because a company might have a very large legal team, doesn't mean that they are :
a) going to naturally win
and
b) not actually correct with their own legal terms...
As I said above sue em and let us know the outcome.
As I said above sue em and let us know the outcome.
It costs money to sue. it's easier to just walk away.
what about if we set up a fund on CF and when we reach a few grand we can put the ball in motion. the alarm bells at VM will go off ringing WARNING! WARNING! Someone's got money and is in a position to challenge! that is the only way that anything can be done, someone needs the money to take them to court. they know were all poor and stupid.
they know were all poor and stupid.
I'll have you know some of us are reasonably well off ;)
As for the banks issue mentioned aboe, the court ruling stated that the charges were not illegal, but that they could be reviewed by the OFT as to whether they were a reasonable reflection of the costs involved.
hammered
14-05-2008, 12:52
As for the banks issue mentioned aboe, the court ruling stated that the charges were not illegal, but that they could be reviewed by the OFT as to whether they were a reasonable reflection of the costs involved.
Indeed so, but the point is that the banks lost their case...
The case wasn't to find out if the fees were illegal, but was to find out whether the fees were caught by comsumer law or not and could be investigated by the OFT. Which now that the banks have lost, the OFT can investigate the fees, and state whether they are unacceptably high or not.
If you think that the banks were in the right, why is it that they have paid out so much money to people regarding this... I should know I'm one of the lucky ones that managed to get back some money from them before all this went to the High Court... :)
SimpleSimon
10-06-2008, 20:18
Quick question. Has anyone successfully used the change in T & C to get out of their contract?
hi, :confused:
I did phone to cancel, the lady would have none of it, i was told because i had phone, tv, and cable as a package i,e, A depended on B and B on C and C on A.
Cancell one or all, would mean i would be charged for the full year, she did a quick calculation £320.
At that i thanked her & said goodby, needed time and clear head to think.
From the attituade i was sure they would take the money from my account and i would have to fight to get it back.
I would like to cancell, any body here willing to do a legal sounding draft for me.
ray
SimpleSimon
10-06-2008, 21:09
Does anybody know when the T & C changed? Did anyone receive a letter? Does STM and Phorm constitute a "significant change to the terms and conditions"?
When I took the internet back in the day from this shower of shoddyness I was not given any notice of any terms and conditions, nor was there any usage allowance....since there is a usage allowance they should stop advertising it as an unlimited service.
The T&C must have been changed to cover the STM service anyway as this was something that was not around awhile ago
Actually, no, they haven't. There was a section covering possible restrictions on heavy users way back in 1999 when I joined.
moaningmags
10-06-2008, 23:47
Actually, no, they haven't. There was a section covering possible restrictions on heavy users way back in 1999 when I joined.
I still have my contract from 2000 and it covers AUP and usage too.
Don't remember ever seeing it enforced until STM was introduced in May 2007
LostintheNW
11-06-2008, 08:26
Actually, no, they haven't. There was a section covering possible restrictions on heavy users way back in 1999 when I joined.
Back in 1999 when we had cable there was no broadband service in the Manchester Area, I had at that time C&W dial up - when NTL introduced the broadband service I was not told of any possible restrictions or plans to have any. So as of yet I am waiting to recieve any form of written notice from this shower of crap that they have changed any terms and conditions - I only ever find out about these things when they hit the headlines or are revealed on websites like this
xspeedyx
11-06-2008, 15:59
dont companies reserve the right to change there T&C's
Seems to me they have it coming and going...:rolleyes: I'm trying to think of anyone else who can do this and get away with it...
dont companies reserve the right to change there T&C's
Yes within reason. you have to remember that millions do not know about any changes that have been made by VM. look at it a different way, where you have a contract with me and after you've agreed to the terms and signed to say you have read and agreed to them, I start changing everything so all the terms you agreed to have changed and there's terms and conditions in there now that you most likely wouldn't agree to now or before.
They have to tell you about the changes, and so far haven't and don't have any intention of telling anyone in the required way. if they think that it's your own fault for not checking their website everyday then they are very much mistaken.
If some are thinking surely the legal team would have advised them about having to inform. the same could be said about BT and the secret trials, which has now been deemed illegal after the event.
whydoIneedatech
11-06-2008, 21:46
Below is taken from Virginmedia's own website where quite clearly it shows what we as customers have agreed that Virginmedia as a company can do with regards to the Terms and Conditions.
H Changing this agreement
You may add to or reduce the services you receive from time to time by contacting our Customer Care team. If you ask us to provide any extra services to you, you agree to accept those additional services for at least the minimum period that applies to them.
We and/or Virgin Media Payments may at any time improve, modify, amend or alter the terms of this agreement and/or the services and their content if:
there is any change or amendment to any law or regulation which applies to us or Virgin Media Payments or the services we provide to you;
we decide that the services should be altered for reasons of quality of service or otherwise for the benefit of our customers or, in our reasonable opinion, it is necessary to do so;
for security, technical or operational reasons;
the programming or content provided to us by any of our programme and service providers is altered;
we decide to offer certain programmes as Pay-Per-View or programmes on demand;
if the changes or additions are minor and do not affect you significantly or we wish to have all our customers on the same terms and conditions; or
in all other events, where we reasonably determine that any modification to our system or change in our trading, operating or business practices or policy is necessary to maintain or improve the services which we provide to you.However, you will have the right to cancel the affected services or end this agreement if the changes are significant, as described in paragraph J3.
We and/or Virgin Media Payments may change our respective charges at any time. We will publish any change in the monthly charges made by us and/or Virgin Media Payments on our website and we and Virgin Media Payments will do our best to give you notice of the change at least one month before the change takes effect. Any changes to our usage charges and tariffs will be published on our website and will be reflected on your next bill.Here is the link to the complete Terms and Conditions
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
Below is taken from Virginmedia's own website where quite clearly it shows what we as customers have agreed that Virginmedia as a company can do with regards to the Terms and Conditions.
b. we decide that the services should be altered for reasons of quality of service or otherwise for the benefit of our customers or, in our reasonable opinion, it is necessary to do so;
That covers them for giving everyone 56k connections from 6am till 5am then.
d. the programming or content provided to us by any of our programme and service providers is altered;
Was that put in after the loss of SKY1?
g. in all other events, where we reasonably determine that any modification to our system or change in our trading, operating or business practices or policy is necessary to maintain or improve the services which we provide to you.
Covers them for anything and everything.
They can say what they want about what they can do if they want, but it has to be seen as reasonable and fair to all, not just to them.
There's numerous occasions where they say they can do things without giving you notice
There's one occasion where information about telling you something they will do their best to give you notice it just happens to be about price increases.
Have they took out the part about giving you 30 days notice about changes to terms and conditions?
whydoIneedatech
11-06-2008, 22:25
b. we decide that the services should be altered for reasons of quality of service or otherwise for the benefit of our customers or, in our reasonable opinion, it is necessary to do so;
That covers them for giving everyone 56k connections from 6am till 5am then.
d. the programming or content provided to us by any of our programme and service providers is altered;
Was that put in after the loss of SKY1?
g. in all other events, where we reasonably determine that any modification to our system or change in our trading, operating or business practices or policy is necessary to maintain or improve the services which we provide to you.
Covers them for anything and everything.
They can say what they want about what they can do if they want, but it has to be seen as reasonable and fair to all, not just to them.
No date given, just depends how good their Legal Teams are and anyones Legal Team going up against them.
No date given, just depends how good their Legal Teams are and anyones Legal Team going up against them.
I'd say they're clever as well as good. just hope they don't get too confident though :D
LostintheNW
12-06-2008, 08:51
No date given, just depends how good their Legal Teams are and anyones Legal Team going up against them.
I get what you are saying however, no one and this is law can be bound by terms and conditions they are unaware of - Virgin cannot simply change things without notification as this is unfair in contract law and renders the clause in any contract void.
The fact they publish on their website does not mean any customer has knowledge of the changes, as nowhere in the terms and conditions does it state the customer agrees with virgin to regularly check the terms and conditions published on any website that virigin media own or operates.
Therefore unless the useless cretins send any notification of any change in price or services etc no one knows about them until they get the bill - and our direct debits are taken less than 30 days after the bill has been issued - which means the proper notification time has not been given.
As you see it works both ways when quoting their terms and condtions and applying the law (and contract law is straightforward to understand).
I've given up with VM anyway - the service they provide is expensive for what you get, the CS people are the rudest I've ever come across, and if I am paying for a 20 meg net service I would hope to at least one day see this speed, not 5 meg!
Am off out of this thread as the more I read their T&C's the more annoyed I get at how they think they are untouchable and have a licence to do what they like when they like.
Every company and even banks inform you of changes to terms and conditions. it's only Virgin Media that don't. they should do, they have to, but they don't want to.
Your point of them thinking they are untouchable is true. they do think they can do what they want and get away with it. but all these things are going to come crashing down on them. it is inevitable.
whenever it is pointed out to them about false or misleading information published on their site, Alex Brown always says it's an oversight and will be corrected. maybe when things come crashing down around them, this excuse will be used again to get them out of trouble.
arcamalpha2004
12-06-2008, 14:37
Every company and even banks inform you of changes to terms and conditions. it's only Virgin Media that don't. they should do, they have to, but they don't want to.
Your point of them thinking they are untouchable is true. they do think they can do what they want and get away with it. but all these things are going to come crashing down on them. it is inevitable.
whenever it is pointed out to them about false or misleading information published on their site, Alex Brown always says it's an oversight and will be corrected. maybe when things come crashing down around them, this excuse will be used again to get them out of trouble.
I only hope its not too long before this company is where it deserves for the misleading way they behave, in the bin.
I have today be intouch with virgin to get out of my contact!!
as i use the internet for gameing! and the traffic management
has stopped me from doing what i had there internet for
I informed them the bit in the aggrement.
However, you will have the right to cancel the affected services or end this agreement if the changes are significant, as described in paragraph J3.
the changes are significant to me!!
Iv been allowed to leave without paying and money!! 6 months early!
like a previous person asked is the new daytime stm policy a significant change to the terms and conditions?
i actually ran retentions regarding this daytime stm and why wasnt i notified of this change in services the company is providing me. the answer was along the lines of "well sir you would have received an email or letter of some sort and if you didnt then before you signed up to new 12 month contract, the daytime stm was already in place in our terms and conditions." for a fact when i did, the stm was only in places like preston and didnt mention the entire country. this is murder im tellin ya, virgin media are just getting away with it
arcamalpha2004
09-07-2008, 14:23
I have today be intouch with virgin to get out of my contact!!
as i use the internet for gameing! and the traffic management
has stopped me from doing what i had there internet for
I informed them the bit in the aggrement.
However, you will have the right to cancel the affected services or end this agreement if the changes are significant, as described in paragraph J3.
the changes are significant to me!!
Iv been allowed to leave without paying and money!! 6 months early!
Well done, you are on about the mother of all Broadband?
Cannot wait for sky to rollout their current trial, it cannot be any worse than vm's excuse for service.
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