View Full Version : STM top 3% out the window
If anyone uses their connection at maximum speed for 20 minutes they will activate STM.
These people are considered to be downloading a large amount. so large that it is affecting the service for other people.
It has to be a lot more than 3% that are maxing their connection out at any one time, so that is why it is out the window :)
MovedGoalPosts
07-05-2008, 00:16
And where are you getting this information?
TraxData
07-05-2008, 00:18
If you ask a few techs (most have access to ubr info) you'll find that on average its anywhere from 50-80% of people that get stm'd, everyday.
And where are you getting this information?
My brain :confused:
---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------
If you ask a few techs (most have access to ubr info) you'll find that on average its anywhere from 50-80% of people that get stm'd, everyday.
There's talk of STM being illegal in how it's being applied. I can see the quoted figure of 3% being changed sometime soon.
TraxData
07-05-2008, 00:24
My brain :confused:
---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------
There's talk of STM being illegal in how it's being applied. I can see the quoted figure of 3% being changed sometime soon.
Yes...there is a case *aherm*...over this STM madness...but everything is being kept quiet on that front.
At least STM will properly switch off at 9PM soon.
Not that it'll make much difference when the new STM is rolled out.
I heard that Branson has submitted the 12 month get out clause already :)
MovedGoalPosts
07-05-2008, 00:29
I may not have been keeping up with latest events. Is this 20 minutes thing fact, i.e. announced on a website, or is it just something you are suspecting?
TraxData
07-05-2008, 00:31
I may not have been keeping up with latest events. Is this 20 minutes thing fact, i.e. announced on a website, or is it just something you are suspecting?
It's fact, start a download at full speed...and enjoy your connection cut down to 5mbit after 18 minutes (if at max).
VM really need to change their advertising to "5mbit with burst speeds of upto 20mbit"
I may not have been keeping up with latest events. Is this 20 minutes thing fact, i.e. announced on a website, or is it just something you are suspecting?
20 minutes is the time it takes to trigger STM.
dilli-theclaw
07-05-2008, 01:02
presumably another trial or not in all areas yet. Because its certainly not true here on sunny sandy.
frogstamper
07-05-2008, 03:22
If you think about it logically how can VM say only the top 3% will be stm,d, the only way to do that would be to apply stm retrospectively after they totted up every-ones downloads for an evening. The way they are selling it at present is with the usual VM smoke and mirrors, I mean I'm not enamoured with stm but I can understand the thinking behind it, it just grates when VM are not totally honest, as with this bloody 3%, likewise with phorm, at times it feels VM are purposely keeping us in the dark.
presumably another trial or not in all areas yet. Because its certainly not true here on sunny sandy.
STM affects all customers in all areas.
dilli-theclaw
07-05-2008, 09:33
Yes I know that. But my connection doesn't get slowed down to 5mb after 18mins of use.
Yes I know that. But my connection doesn't get slowed down to 5mb after 18mins of use.
Mine doesn't get slowed down to 5mb after 17 mins of use.
I see your 18 mins is in reply to Trax and not my 20 mins.
M takes about 26 minutes to trigger STM
L takes about 27 minutes to trigger STM
XL takes about 23 minutes to trigger STM
New policy
M takes about 19 minutes to trigger STM
L takes about 26 minutes to trigger STM
L *trial* takes about 10 minutes to trigger STM
XL takes about 19 minutes to trigger STM
dilli-theclaw
07-05-2008, 09:47
I didn't say it did.
I can understand the STM rule, people want to be able to use their internet when they get home after work, so I'll happily wait till 9pm before starting, if any, downloading.
My connection didn't drop down in speed at all last night between the hours of 10pm and 8am this morning.
My connection didn't drop down in speed at all last night between the hours of 10pm and 8am this morning.
It's not supposed to.
cybernetic_tiger
07-05-2008, 10:08
M takes about 26 minutes to trigger STM
L takes about 27 minutes to trigger STM
XL takes about 23 minutes to trigger STM
At least you know what VM are doing. I am currently using a Tiscali connection and can say 100% I hate their interpretation of STM.
All ports are being STM'ed except http and mail. I am synched to the DSLAM at 7.2Mb and am only able to download from newsgroups at 50KBps (it peaks at around 400KBps for 3/4 seconds then drops back). Also at 4pm right through until Midnight they block 119,443,8000 and the other ports that my news server uses entirely!
Also at weekends 119 gets blocked at 4PM on Friday then not re-opened until Monday AM!
I'm actually looking forward to going home to my VM connection :D.
LOL you can't compare VM to Tiscali :)
I can't edit my previous posts so I'll put it in this one.
Will my download speed be affected?
Your speed won't be moderated unless you're in the top 3% of users.
That is untrue. your speed will be moderated if you download the maximum you are allowed to download within the time slots published. there really is no top 3% because if 50% of all VMs customers were to download the maximum they were allowed to download within the time slots published, then it would be Your speed won't be moderated unless you're in the top 50% of users.
3% makes it look like that they let the other 47% off, but they don't.
If you think about it logically how can VM say only the top 3% will be stm,d, the only way to do that would be to apply stm retrospectively after they totted up every-ones downloads for an evening. The way they are selling it at present is with the usual VM smoke and mirrors, I mean I'm not enamoured with stm but I can understand the thinking behind it, it just grates when VM are not totally honest, as with this bloody 3%, likewise with phorm, at times it feels VM are purposely keeping us in the dark.
That 3% figure is probably based on the years of usage logs they have. Although it doesn't seem like it, I know that even without STM, they do monitor and log usage in each area, and have been probably since they started providing broadband.
Apart from the fact I was told they do by someone who was then both a member of this site and a member of staff at NTL (worked on the networks, IIRC), they would have to do this so they know when and where to upgrade.
Having said that, knowing when and where to upgrade does not mean they can afford to do so.
broadbandbug
07-05-2008, 11:11
If anyone uses their connection at maximum speed for 20 minutes they will activate STM.
These people are considered to be downloading a large amount. so large that it is affecting the service for other people.
It has to be a lot more than 3% that are maxing their connection out at any one time, so that is why it is out the window :)
If you look at the rule set it says 3% in the Upstream & 3% in the Downstream direction.. So there will be some users that break the theshold in both directions (say 1%) so the overall number of users per tier that should be impacted per day is around 5%.
Based on not everyone using their service (to the max) every day, there will be different people 'caught' each day. So over a week they may capture around 15% of the overall customer base.. But as they state 5% per day then they are within the rules..
If you ask a few techs (most have access to ubr info) you'll find that on average its anywhere from 50-80% of people that get stm'd, everyday.
Absolute Bull****
broadbandbug
07-05-2008, 11:33
If you ask a few techs (most have access to ubr info) you'll find that on average its anywhere from 50-80% of people that get stm'd, everyday.
That is absolutely not true! It will be so that some UBRs will have ports on them with a higher proportion of 'heavy users' than others and therefore the daily capture rate will be higher, but the overall network % impacted per day is <5% (combined upstream & downstream). I have been advised that if this were not so VM would be investigated by Ofcom.
---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------
That 3% figure is probably based on the years of usage logs they have. Although it doesn't seem like it, I know that even without STM, they do monitor and log usage in each area, and have been probably since they started providing broadband.
Apart from the fact I was told they do by someone who was then both a member of this site and a member of staff at NTL (worked on the networks, IIRC), they would have to do this so they know when and where to upgrade.
Having said that, knowing when and where to upgrade does not mean they can afford to do so.
This is correct. Also they monitor the daily STM capture rate and if/when the average capture exceeds the set threshold (3% of US and 3% of DS = combined capture rate (overlap removed) of circa 5%) they will raise the volume limits for each tier to bring it back in to where they expect it to be.
I am sure if anyone were to challenge this with the ISPA and/or Ofcom VM would be able to provide the data evidence to show this to be true:D
This is correct. Also they monitor the daily STM capture rate and if/when the average capture exceeds the set threshold (3% of US and 3% of DS = combined capture rate (overlap removed) of circa 5%) they will raise the volume limits for each tier to bring it back in to where they expect it to be.
So, we should all be using our connections to the max. to force VM to increase the STM limits? :confused:
...interesting.
TraxData
07-05-2008, 12:22
That is absolutely not true! It will be so that some UBRs will have ports on them with a higher proportion of 'heavy users' than others and therefore the daily capture rate will be higher, but the overall network % impacted per day is <5% (combined upstream & downstream). I have been advised that if this were not so VM would be investigated by Ofcom.
From multiple ubr info that i have sene the percentage (on daily average) has been way higher than the 3/5% VM *claim* for it to be, you need to remember just using your connection for 20 minutes can get you stm'd, ironically from stats its the normal users who browse/game that seem to be the ones who get stm'd.
Seeing as your probably high enough up, get the ubr info for dudley 03 and tell me its only 3/5% ;)
It's also abit hard to argue with my local source here when i've seen the papers...and on average its 56%/day that get stm'd here.
They wouldnt get investigated by OfCom, dont be silly, ofcom never bother to do anything...and VM know that.
---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------
This is correct. Also they monitor the daily STM capture rate and if/when the average capture exceeds the set threshold (3% of US and 3% of DS = combined capture rate (overlap removed) of circa 5%) they will raise the volume limits for each tier to bring it back in to where they expect it to be.
I am sure if anyone were to challenge this with the ISPA and/or Ofcom VM would be able to provide the data evidence to show this to be true:D
No, they wouldnt, because its not.
It has to be a lot more than 3% that are maxing their connection out at any one time, so that is why it is out the window :)
Indeed, if anything I'd say it was more likely that only 3% *haven't* been capped at some point.
I'd be very surprised if only 3% of users are capped at any one time, the STM limits are too draconian.
xspeedyx
07-05-2008, 12:52
3% does seem alittle lower but you have to think how many bb customers virgin media have so it is alot but the amount will increase as customers needs have increased and the amount of people using p2p (legal aswell) have increased
From multiple ubr info that i have sene the percentage (on daily average) has been way higher than the 3/5% VM *claim* for it to be, you need to remember just using your connection for 20 minutes can get you stm'd, ironically from stats its the normal users who browse/game that seem to be the ones who get stm'd.
i'd put normal users in the <10gb/month category so i don't see how they're the ones getting STMd. There is also a huge difference between using a connection and maxing it out.
i'd put normal users in the <10gb/month category so i don't see how they're the ones getting STMd. There is also a huge difference between using a connection and maxing it out.
Very true, it's one thing using say 25% of your up and down during the day to, downloading en-mass all day long.
:dozey:
TraxData
07-05-2008, 13:06
i'd put normal users in the <10gb/month category so i don't see how they're the ones getting STMd. There is also a huge difference between using a connection and maxing it out.
Well, let's see
STM does not work properly, it will and does STM people who dont download anything but bang on 4pm they are stm'd.
And the average user games/browses/checks emails..they are mostly on the lower speed tiers and they get stm'd around 8pm...the limits are too low, VM know this, the newsgroups show this also..and you can find countless threads on there about being stm'd without downloading anything.
As i said in my previous post the top tier users generally dont get stm'd often because you can see they leave downloading till overnight.
10GB/Month may or may not be right, heavy downloaders do NOT get stm'd, they work around STM, its the average user who gets classed as an abuser.
Impz2002
07-05-2008, 15:34
heavy downloaders do NOT get stm'd, they work around STM, its the average user who gets classed as an abuser.
I have to agree with that. top tier users are wise to VM's methods and work around them while your lower tier users get stung.
Impz
broadbandbug
07-05-2008, 23:41
So, we should all be using our connections to the max. to force VM to increase the STM limits? :confused:
...interesting.
Yes if by 'we should all' you mean the whole of the VM customer base (3.5million) use their connections to the max then the average MB per hour downloaded would increase and yes they would have to increase the volume threshold. However with the average downloads per user on VM being somewhere around the 6GB per month (yes per month) it is unlikely that this is going to happen soon.
icestar2
07-05-2008, 23:48
Well, let's see
STM does not work properly, it will and does STM people who dont download anything but bang on 4pm they are stm'd.
I can agree 100% with that point because its what happens to me everyday. No downloading or anything but come 4PM then my connection becomes almost unusable at points. Used to love to do alot of online gaming e.g. COD4 or BF2 but no more due to majour ping spikes very often.
bomb #21
08-05-2008, 11:30
...As i said in my previous post the top tier users generally dont get stm'd often because you can see they leave downloading till overnight.
10GB/Month may or may not be right, heavy downloaders do NOT get stm'd, they work around STM, its the average user who gets classed as an abuser.
I'm on the slowest speed. I don't have a problem with STM, but the logic is flawed.
"When someone is downloading and/or uploading a particularly large amount of information over a long period of time, it can slow down the Internet speed for other users who might just be checking their email or browsing online."
Note (a) "particularly large amount of information" (b) and (c) "over a long period of time".
I no longer download iPlayer stuff, because I get it through my tellybox now. :tu:
On the very rare occasions I used to, if I downloaded one hour of content in peak times, I'd be throttled -- automatically.
Since when is 300 meg "particularly large"? Since when is one hour a "long period"?
Virgin says "we don't like traffic jams". I may be wrong, but the network as I understand it is finite. Like a motorway, there's a fixed number of lanes. Humongous lorries (those on the max speed) cause far more congestion than blokes like me tootling along in my Civic.
Just a thought.
broadbandbug
08-05-2008, 13:23
I'm on the slowest speed. I don't have a problem with STM, but the logic is flawed.
"When someone is downloading and/or uploading a particularly large amount of information over a long period of time, it can slow down the Internet speed for other users who might just be checking their email or browsing online."
Note (a) "particularly large amount of information" (b) and (c) "over a long period of time".
I no longer download iPlayer stuff, because I get it through my tellybox now. :tu:
On the very rare occasions I used to, if I downloaded one hour of content in peak times, I'd be throttled -- automatically.
Since when is 300 meg "particularly large"? Since when is one hour a "long period"?
Virgin says "we don't like traffic jams". I may be wrong, but the network as I understand it is finite. Like a motorway, there's a fixed number of lanes. Humongous lorries (those on the max speed) cause far more congestion than blokes like me tootling along in my Civic.
Just a thought.
As you say the network is finite.. If you take your motorway analogy, 20Mb/s can be humongous lorries and 2Mb/s can be your Civic.
There are a lot less lorries on the motorway (circa 250,000) than Civics (circa 2.5 Million)
So the top 5% of the lorries use up a shed load of motorway.. But the top 5% of Civics use up shed loads also due to 5% of 2.5 Million being 125,000 cars:D
bomb #21
08-05-2008, 22:36
As you say the network is finite.. If you take your motorway analogy, 20Mb/s can be humongous lorries and 2Mb/s can be your Civic.
There are a lot less lorries on the motorway (circa 250,000) than Civics (circa 2.5 Million)
So the top 5% of the lorries use up a shed load of motorway.. But the top 5% of Civics use up shed loads also due to 5% of 2.5 Million being 125,000 cars:D
Clearly you're unfamiliar with A14. :D
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