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Sput
21-04-2008, 13:48
This article explains why speeds have suddenly dropped - it's Virgin's new traffic management system designed to ensure that we don't get what we pay for.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/networking/news/2008/04/21/Virgin-Trials-Complex-Traffic-Management/p1

So, Customers too need a new system - our new "Value Management System" - wherein when they deliver poor value for money we close our accounts. My call is now on it's way!

trojjer
21-04-2008, 16:44
Damn, that's really taking the cake -- they want to throttle us for 15 out of the 24 hours in a day?! I grumbled I bit when I read about the introduction of the first policy, but I haven't noticed too much of a difference. Then again, I've only started downloading a few TV programmes and films (er, yes, iPlayer and Creative Content films, of course) -- I'm far from the "Top 3%" of heavy users.

Lately we've been considering switching back to ADSL (Pipex wasn't so bad before Hasselhoff...), but the whole BT line quagmire seems like a right mess, and I'm surprised at how satisfied I am with the cut back from 4Mb "L" to 2Mb "M". Despite the stupid names, and the fact that I was told by a customer service rep that "There might be a increase from 2M to 4M, in line with the 4M to 10M"... It remains to be seen whether or not I'll end up paying less for the same speed as before, but I remember starting with Telewest at 512K and eventually getting 4M, which was nice.

I just hope that "opting out" of the Phorm monster via the webwise site, and blocking the cookie in Opera, will keep the monitoring at bay... Or they could at least give their victimssubscribers some of the targetted ad revenue they'll receive!

refraction
21-04-2008, 16:58
unfortunately ADSL isnt much better these days. You either get a god awful service, or you get small limits for most of the day.

the best ADSL i had was with UKFSN who are an entanet reseller. I was limited to 30gb a month from 8am to 10pm weekdays, but evening/nights and all weekend gave me a 300Gb limit.

Sput
21-04-2008, 17:01
Damn, that's really taking the cake -- they want to throttle us for 15 out of the 24 hours in a day?! I grumbled I bit when I read about the introduction of the first policy, but I haven't noticed too much of a difference. Then again, I've only started downloading a few TV programmes and films (er, yes, iPlayer and Creative Content films, of course) -- I'm far from the "Top 3%" of heavy users.

Lately we've been considering switching back to ADSL (Pipex wasn't so bad before Hasselhoff...), but the whole BT line quagmire seems like a right mess, and I'm surprised at how satisfied I am with the cut back from 4Mb "L" to 2Mb "M". Despite the stupid names, and the fact that I was told by a customer service rep that "There might be a increase from 2M to 4M, in line with the 4M to 10M"... It remains to be seen whether or not I'll end up paying less for the same speed as before, but I remember starting with Telewest at 512K and eventually getting 4M, which was nice.

I just hope that "opting out" of the Phorm monster via the webwise site, and blocking the cookie in Opera, will keep the monitoring at bay... Or they could at least give their victimssubscribers some of the targetted ad revenue they'll receive!

Like you I am not a heavy user and so I object the the vicious throttling that they propose to introduce to everyone. This is not in my contract and so I have already objected. Much to my surprise they offered to cut my monthly bill for the 20 meg service to £20 so I accepted. However, I have explained that if the service gets worse then I am cancelling the service and moving to another ISP.

Gary L
21-04-2008, 17:03
New 12 month contract come with the deal?

Sput
21-04-2008, 17:13
New 12 month contract come with the deal?

Not for me, but I anticipate that all new customers will have a contract incorporating the the new traffic management system.

info4u
21-04-2008, 17:18
I dont see how limiting uploads during the day is going to work well

Ok most people will be working 9-5 so it wont affect them that badley but people use uploads for email use, image uploads, text transmitting via php, video uploads

this will specially affect regular Youtube users and Facebook/My Space

As for advertising there may be a small clause that says subject to different areas so their advertising may still be inline and correct.
That is of cause if they have started it

Plus having worked for Virgin Media under Telewest Broadbanf franchise they normally tend to write to customers and select an X amount of good paying customers with a good service record with the company to ask them if they would mind in participating in the trial to test it for about 2-3 months then they tend to roll it out nationally

Sput
21-04-2008, 23:06
I dont see how limiting uploads during the day is going to work well

Ok most people will be working 9-5 so it wont affect them that badley but people use uploads for email use, image uploads, text transmitting via php, video uploads

this will specially affect regular Youtube users and Facebook/My Space

As for advertising there may be a small clause that says subject to different areas so their advertising may still be inline and correct.
That is of cause if they have started it

Plus having worked for Virgin Media under Telewest Broadbanf franchise they normally tend to write to customers and select an X amount of good paying customers with a good service record with the company to ask them if they would mind in participating in the trial to test it for about 2-3 months then they tend to roll it out nationally

Indeed it is a trial and hopefully the comments you make in your final paragraph will be followed this time too. However, we do need to recognise that the bottom line for most customers is "are we getting good value for money?" Current broadband performance is very poor and if this form of traffic management is introduced as well, then, I fear the worst.

Paranoimia
21-04-2008, 23:41
I'm not normally one to complain about STM, and have managed to work around it quite nicely. I do download a lot of stuff, though nowhere near the new 3 and 6GB limits.

However, I am getting a little hacked off now. The reason being that if I want to just browse a few web sites and send e-mails, I'd go for a lower speed. I have a 20MB connection purely to download stuff faster. I know some have issues with their service, but I've been happy, since I actually do get pretty much the full 20MB for pretty much 100% of the time.

To me, there seems little point in providing such a fast service if you're going to prevent people downloading at full speed - that's what high-speed broadband is for, in my personal opinion. Anything else, you don't need much more than 4MB.

These high-speed services aren't cheap, and Virgin would do better investing our money into upgrading their network, rather than paying tech bods to find ways to cripple our download speeds.

Sput
22-04-2008, 10:45
I'm not normally one to complain about STM, and have managed to work around it quite nicely. I do download a lot of stuff, though nowhere near the new 3 and 6GB limits.

However, I am getting a little hacked off now. The reason being that if I want to just browse a few web sites and send e-mails, I'd go for a lower speed. I have a 20MB connection purely to download stuff faster. I know some have issues with their service, but I've been happy, since I actually do get pretty much the full 20MB for pretty much 100% of the time.

To me, there seems little point in providing such a fast service if you're going to prevent people downloading at full speed - that's what high-speed broadband is for, in my personal opinion. Anything else, you don't need much more than 4MB.

These high-speed services aren't cheap, and Virgin would do better investing our money into upgrading their network, rather than paying tech bods to find ways to cripple our download speeds.

You have accurately summarised my own views, and the views of many other subscribers, on this situation and I fully support what you say. Well, done.

TehTech
22-04-2008, 11:40
You have accurately summarised my own views, and the views of many other subscribers, on this situation and I fully support what you say. Well, done.


To both Paranoimia & Sput:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Sput
22-04-2008, 15:51
I have just discovered that this guy is none too happy either:-

http://blog.northmore.net/2007/12/11/virgin-traffic-management-sucks/

Paranoimia
22-04-2008, 18:56
Cheers guys. I also take issue with what Virgin say:

"The trial aims to prevent or reduce the effects of a minority of users abusing the network and preventing the majority of subscribers from having the network performance they desire.

For the vast majority of customers, upwards of 95% of the base, their experience will be a more consistent speed (both upload and download)."

I say to Virgin: Sorry, but that's not my problem. If I'm paying for a 20MB connection, I should be able to run it at full capacity 24/7 if I so choose; that's NOT abusing the network, it's simply making full use of a service that I am paying for. You need to upgrade your network accordingly. If you don't have the capacity, don't offer the service.

If I spend the equivalent of 5 days of the month being forced to run on a 5MB connection because your network can't support the advertised speeds, then you should adjust my bill downwards accordingly.

As it is, you will have two p***ed-off customers instead of one. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is NOT the way to do things.

Sput
22-04-2008, 19:52
"The trial aims to prevent or reduce the effects of a minority of users abusing the network and preventing the majority of subscribers from having the network performance they desire.

For the vast majority of customers, upwards of 95% of the base, their experience will be a more consistent speed (both upload and download)."

I could not agree more with Paranoimia. Moreover, if Virgin are correct in that only 5% of thier customers are causing problems then surely they should take action against the 5% causing the problem rather than applying the restriction to all of their customers.

A simple analogy is drawing petrol from a petrol station. The 95% good customers pay for 20 gallons of petrol but when they complain that only 10 gallons has been delivered are told that this is because 5% of bad customers have taken more than their allocated 20 gallons and so the petrol station has to limit supplies. The analogy is not technically perfect but it does illustrate the unacceptable stance being adopted by Virgin!

trevortt
22-04-2008, 21:10
Bethere are supposed to be a good ISP.

Sput
22-04-2008, 21:45
Bethere are supposed to be a good ISP.

Their 24 Meg service at £18 per month looks great but unfortunately they are not available in my area.

chickendippers
22-04-2008, 22:01
I say to Virgin: Sorry, but that's not my problem. If I'm paying for a 20MB connection, I should be able to run it at full capacity 24/7 if I so choose; that's NOT abusing the network, it's simply making full use of a service that I am paying for. You need to upgrade your network accordingly. If you don't have the capacity, don't offer the service.

If I spend the equivalent of 5 days of the month being forced to run on a 5MB connection because your network can't support the advertised speeds, then you should adjust my bill downwards accordingly.

As it is, you will have two p***ed-off customers instead of one. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is NOT the way to do things.
Residential broadband is a contended service, you have to share it between other people, that's why it's so cheap. If you found out your connection was being slowed down by your next door neighbour downloading 24/7, I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?

If you don't want to share your connection with anyone else you can shell out several hundred pounds a month and have your own dedicated line ;)

scottish_stu
22-04-2008, 22:11
Like you I am not a heavy user and so I object the the vicious throttling that they propose to introduce to everyone.
To be honest, I thought those complaining about STM were just moaning for the sake of it, but now I've realised I'm wrong - and many of you are right.

To quote VM's website, it specifically says here (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/faqs/bbfaqs.html#3): "What does unlimited broadband mean? No download limits. Unlike some of our competitors, you get unlimited downloads as a basic right so you can load up on music, films...whatever you're into."

I'm at work all day, and don't use consoles etc so considered size L to more than meet my needs, but with this new policy I can only really download ONE DVD length movie of decent quality (paid for, of course) during evening/weekend hours.

Not my idea of "loading up on music, films...whatever I'm into." Fair enough it's not in Edinburgh yet, but that's not a way to run a network. In fact, that makes it even more unfair penalising users based on their geographic location.

Keep up the pressure on VM guys.

Sput
23-04-2008, 00:20
Residential broadband is a contended service, you have to share it between other people, that's why it's so cheap. If you found out your connection was being slowed down by your next door neighbour downloading 24/7, I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?

If you don't want to share your connection with anyone else you can shell out several hundred pounds a month and have your own dedicated line ;)

The points you make are perfectly valid but these are not the point of this debate. Of course we would all be unhappy if a neighbour was downloading 24/7. A more pertinent question is whether Virgin should solve this problem by placing restrictions upon EVERYONE for the behaviour of the few? Virgin claim that only 5% of it's customers cause such problems so would it not be better for Virgin to enforce it's own Acceptable Use Policy:-

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html

and restrict the 5% of offenders rather than the 95% of non offenders?

I contend that taking action against the offenders is the fairest and most equitable solution.

Mick Fisher
23-04-2008, 03:47
The points you make are perfectly valid but these are not the point of this debate. Of course we would all be unhappy if a neighbour was downloading 24/7. A more pertinent question is whether Virgin should solve this problem by placing restrictions upon EVERYONE for the behaviour of the few? Virgin claim that only 5% of it's customers cause such problems so would it not be better for Virgin to enforce it's own Acceptable Use Policy:-

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html

and restrict the 5% of offenders rather than the 95% of non offenders?

I contend that taking action against the offenders is the fairest and most equitable solution.
Agreed but it would not be in VM's interest.

STM has nothing to do with improving the average users experience. It has everything to do with allowing VM to continue overloading the network with new punters and endeavouring to lock them into 12 month contracts without upgrading or with only limited upgrades to the network.

Imo the income from this practice is probably the only thing keeping them afloat while they wait anxiously for their handout from Phorm. ;)

Sput
23-04-2008, 10:19
Agreed but it would not be in VM's interest.

STM has nothing to do with improving the average users experience. It has everything to do with allowing VM to continue overloading the network with new punters and endeavouring to lock them into 12 month contracts without upgrading or with only limited upgrades to the network.

Imo the income from this practice is probably the only thing keeping them afloat while they wait anxiously for their handout from Phorm. ;)

Regrettably I think you are right and so our ability to resolve the problem is somewhat limited.:(

Paranoimia
23-04-2008, 15:11
Residential broadband is a contended service, you have to share it between other people, that's why it's so cheap.

Cheap? I certainly don't think it's cheap. Not considering what we in the UK get for our money, compared to places like Japan, much of the US, and certain areas of Europe. By comparison, broadband in the UK is almost archaic, and ridiculously over-priced.


If you found out your connection was being slowed down by your next door neighbour downloading 24/7, I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?

I agree 100% - but that's the point I'm making. We should not be in a position where one person's usage affects another's. If someone is paying for 20MB broadband, then that is what they should get 100% of the time, regardless of how they use it. The price doesn't drop, so why should the speed?

As I said, they should be looking to invest our money into improving the network so that contention isn't an issue, and we all get what we're paying for. If they're going to deliberately cut our connection speed to way below what we're paying for, then they need to start adjusting the bills accordingly.

To use Sput's petrol analogy, if you paid for 20 litres of petrol but only received 5, you would have every right to demand a partial refund. In fact, off the top of my head, I can think of no other business where a company can knowingly and deliberately provide you with less than you've paid for, and still charge you full price.

If it were honest, the Virgin marketing blurb would say something like: "Superfast 20MB broadband, with unlimited downloads... unless your neighbours complain, in which case we'll only give you 5MB, but we'll still charge you the same price."

Sput
24-04-2008, 11:14
Cheap? I certainly don't think it's cheap. Not considering what we in the UK get for our money, compared to places like Japan, much of the US, and certain areas of Europe. By comparison, broadband in the UK is almost archaic, and ridiculously over-priced.




I agree 100% - but that's the point I'm making. We should not be in a position where one person's usage affects another's. If someone is paying for 20MB broadband, then that is what they should get 100% of the time, regardless of how they use it. The price doesn't drop, so why should the speed?

As I said, they should be looking to invest our money into improving the network so that contention isn't an issue, and we all get what we're paying for. If they're going to deliberately cut our connection speed to way below what we're paying for, then they need to start adjusting the bills accordingly.

To use Sput's petrol analogy, if you paid for 20 litres of petrol but only received 5, you would have every right to demand a partial refund. In fact, off the top of my head, I can think of no other business where a company can knowingly and deliberately provide you with less than you've paid for, and still charge you full price.

If it were honest, the Virgin marketing blurb would say something like: "Superfast 20MB broadband, with unlimited downloads... unless your neighbours complain, in which case we'll only give you 5MB, but we'll still charge you the same price."

Well done. An excellent summary of how we all feel about less than accurate marketing that takes place with broadband. Keep up the good work.

wizz
25-04-2008, 00:28
I am now really pi***d off.
I have been traffic shaped for the last four hours because I have had the audacity to download at 400kb on my 4mb line !!

I needed some data urgently...so I paid a premium (time limited) to access a fast server to collect the data I required. I have only ever done this once before in six years because I really don't like paying twice for something.

So I'm not only paying "top dollar" for a crap service...but I'm loosing the advantage of a fast download service.

I never contracted to traffic shaping in any form...I signed up for a 4mb line, which I am not getting.

So what can I do about it ??????

hokkers999
25-04-2008, 02:26
Damn, that's really taking the cake -- they want to throttle us for 15 out of the 24 hours in a day?!

[snip]



So go get yourself a bit-torrent client, head over to ubuntu.com, find a tracker and get downloading copy after copy after copy of the distro .iso image.

If they want to prat me about, I'm going to suck down every single last byte I possibly can.

the-cable-guy
25-04-2008, 13:45
i am a heavy user however even if i dont download owt i still get throttled.

Kellargh
25-04-2008, 14:17
Aren't you at least happy you don't have to put up with adsl? I'm meant to get 4.5mbps but I get 1.9!! Wish I could get Virgin...

the-cable-guy
25-04-2008, 14:18
lol mate you dont want it trust me.

ceedee
25-04-2008, 16:28
I have been traffic shaped for the last four hours because I have had the audacity to download at 400kb on my 4mb line !!

I'm fairly sure that your connection speed was capped by STM not because you downloaded "at 400kb" but because you exceeded the *quantity* limit.

So what can I do about it ??????

If you were in a hurry to get somewhere and chose to pay extra to hire a taxi (rather than wait for a bus) but then both your taxi and the bus got stuck in a traffic jam with no alternative route, what would you do?

---------- Post added at 15:04 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

So go get yourself a bit-torrent client, head over to ubuntu.com, find a tracker and get downloading copy after copy after copy of the distro .iso image.

If they want to prat me about, I'm going to suck down every single last byte I possibly can.

You realise that all you'll be doing is reducing the connection speeds for your neighbours and other users on the same UBR?
Okay so VM might get a few more phone calls (at the premium rate) from frustrated customers but do you think that'll change anything?

Seems like a particularly unhelpful suggestion -- hope you don't live anywhere near me!
:(

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

i am a heavy user however even if i dont download owt i still get throttled.

If that's really the case, I'd suggest you contact Tech Support as it could mean there's a problem with the STM settings for your UBR.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

lol mate you dont want it trust me.

Dunno about you but I experienced years of continual frustration with ADSL (everything from pathetic service from BT to incompetent and rip-off ISPs) but since joining VM I've had a reliable and fast (within 90% of maximum speeds) connection with only three short disconnections in the last two and a half years.

I'd hate to have to return to ADSL.

the-cable-guy
25-04-2008, 17:35
I'm fairly sure that your connection speed was capped by STM not because you downloaded "at 400kb" but because you exceeded the *quantity* limit.



If you were in a hurry to get somewhere and chose to pay extra to hire a taxi (rather than wait for a bus) but then both your taxi and the bus got stuck in a traffic jam with no alternative route, what would you do?

---------- Post added at 15:04 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------



You realise that all you'll be doing is reducing the connection speeds for your neighbours and other users on the same UBR?
Okay so VM might get a few more phone calls (at the premium rate) from frustrated customers but do you think that'll change anything?

Seems like a particularly unhelpful suggestion -- hope you don't live anywhere near me!
:(

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------



If that's really the case, I'd suggest you contact Tech Support as it could mean there's a problem with the STM settings for your UBR.

---------- Post added at 15:28 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------



Dunno about you but I experienced years of continual frustration with ADSL (everything from pathetic service from BT to incompetent and rip-off ISPs) but since joining VM I've had a reliable and fast (within 90% of maximum speeds) connection with only three short disconnections in the last two and a half years.

I'd hate to have to return to ADSL.

iv spoken to VM about it in the past & all that they could say was dont download at all then. my connection has been p*ss poor, its taken them just under three years & five modems later to be able to give me a connection thats on 24/7 without cutting off at least four times a day.

Sput
25-04-2008, 17:39
I have just come accross this interesting article:-

http://blog.p2pvine.com/to-virgin-media-we-the-customers-dont-like-traffic-jams-either-05042008/

ceedee
25-04-2008, 18:12
iv spoken to VM about it in the past & all that they could say was dont download at all then. my connection has been p*ss poor, its taken them just under three years & five modems later to be able to give me a connection thats on 24/7 without cutting off at least four times a day.

I'm absolutely certain that all the Tech Support staff who helpfully offer advice and guidance on CF would be appalled that you'd been offered such a ridiculous suggestion.

All that I can recommend is, should you experience problems with your connection again, that you ask for help here or VM's dedicated newsgroup.

the-cable-guy
25-04-2008, 18:20
well iv had alot worse info then that given to me in the past & yeah i will thanks for the advice :o)

Sput
26-04-2008, 09:54
I have just carried out a speed test and got:-


"http://homepagentlworld.ccrn/robin.d.h.walker/speedtest.htm1fl209195999152
Sat, 26 Apr 2008 07:46:40 GMT

1st 128K took 304 ms = 431158 Bytes/sec = approx 3587 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 203 ms = 645675 Bytes/sec = approx 5372 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 25 ms = 5242880 Bytes/sec = approx 43621 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 458 ms = 286183 Bytes/sec = approx 2381 kbits/sec

These results appear to be rather fast: maybe this page was in the browser cache."

To be told that the results "..appear to be rather fast" is somewhat annoying when I have a 20 meg service and it is early Saturday morning!

The most annoying factor is that until a week ago I regularly got speeds over 17,000 kbits/sec and despite no changes to my system now I rarely get over 6,000 kbits/sec.

Sput
27-04-2008, 10:12
What a difference a day makes! THis mornings speed test produces the best results that I can ever recall:-

"Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:08:41 GMT
1st 128K took 70 ms = 1872457 Bytes/sec = approx 15579 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 42 ms = 3120762 Bytes/sec = approx 25965 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 62 ins = 2114065 Bytes/sec = approx 17589 kbitslsec
4th 128K took 46 ms = 2849391 Bytes/sec = approx 23707 kbits/sec
These results appear to be rather fast: maybe this page was in the browser cache."

I wonder why such an improvement has occurred?

nquinnathome1
27-04-2008, 10:22
"Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:20:34 GMT

Test 1: 1024K took 6751 ms = 151.7 KB/sec, approx 1250 Kbps, 1.22 Mbps
Test 2: 1024K took 6681 ms = 153.3 KB/sec, approx 1263 Kbps, 1.23 Mbps
Test 3: 1024K took 7679 ms = 133.4 KB/sec, approx 1099 Kbps, 1.07 Mbps
Test 4: 2048K took 18504 ms = 110.7 KB/sec, approx 912 Kbps, 0.89 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 1131 Kbps, 1.1 Mbps"

It's getting considerably worse for me; at least yesterday I had 1.8 Mbps... (I'm on 20 megabit - supposedly).

ceedee
27-04-2008, 11:30
Overall Average Speed = approx 1131 Kbps, 1.1 Mbps

It's getting considerably worse for me; at least yesterday I had 1.8 Mbps... (I'm on 20 megabit - supposedly).

Have you tried to get the problem fixed?

I've posted some tips here (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34536571-post2.html) (ignore the section on STM as it needs revising) if you want to give it a go.

nquinnathome1
27-04-2008, 13:25
Have you tried to get the problem fixed?

I've posted some tips here (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34536571-post2.html) (ignore the section on STM as it needs revising) if you want to give it a go.

Thanks; actually the speed has started going up this morning to above 12000 Kbps - weird huh? You'd think the speed would drop as more people woke up and logged on ;) A very odd problem.

Sput
27-04-2008, 15:10
Thanks; actually the speed has started going up this morning to above 12000 Kbps - weird huh? You'd think the speed would drop as more people woke up and logged on ;) A very odd problem.

Virgin reports network maintenance starts this week so PERHAPS there is a connection:-

http://status-cable.virginmedia.com/vmstatus/maintenanceissue.do;jsessionid=B144BB7FEBC0DB7D74E 8B54AF184FC98.jsps304p:28009?ticket=280408

Regardless, there is hope that the maintenance work will produce some improvements for some people - hopefully you will be one of them?

Chicken
27-04-2008, 16:45
You realise that all you'll be doing is reducing the connection speeds for your neighbours and other users on the same UBR?

But according to VM, the whole point of STM is to avoid heavy users affecting others, so why no just thrash your connection to death? Obviously 'most' users are doing so otherwise there would be no need for STM - just get rid of the heavy users.

---------- Post added at 15:45 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

I'm absolutely certain that all the Tech Support staff who helpfully offer advice and guidance on CF would be appalled that you'd been offered such a ridiculous suggestion.

All that I can recommend is, should you experience problems with your connection again, that you ask for help here or VM's dedicated newsgroup.

.. but be quick as its likely VM are going to withdraw newsgroup support soon.

cimt
27-04-2008, 17:31
So go get yourself a bit-torrent client, head over to ubuntu.com, find a tracker and get downloading copy after copy after copy of the distro .iso image.

If they want to prat me about, I'm going to suck down every single last byte I possibly can.
It's people like you who cause VM to give download limits, what do you expect VM to do if you mean to go over the limit to **** them off? Offer to upgrade your service as long as you stop being a pain?
If you were in a hurry to get somewhere and chose to pay extra to hire a taxi (rather than wait for a bus) but then both your taxi and the bus got stuck in a traffic jam with no alternative route, what would you do?
You'd probably get a bus, it'd be cheaper. Or, you'd pay the taxi in the traffic jam and walk from there depending on how far away you are from your destination.
Have you tried to get the problem fixed?

I've posted some tips here (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34536571-post2.html) (ignore the section on STM as it needs revising) if you want to give it a go.

I'll give that a read.

ceedee
28-04-2008, 00:09
You'd probably get a bus, it'd be cheaper. Or, you'd pay the taxi in the traffic jam and walk from there depending on how far away you are from your destination.
I'm a cheap SOB so I'd avoid both taxi and bus and walk anyway!
:)

I'll give that a read.
All criticism gratefully and gracefully received -- well, let's be honest: the less constructive the criticism, the less gracefully I'll receive it... But it'd be welcome nonetheless.
:tu:

Sput
28-04-2008, 13:22
Speed today is not bad at all:-

Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:14:37 GMT
1st 128K took 63 ins = 2080508 Bytes/sec = approx 17310 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 60 ins = 2184533 Bytes/sec = approx 18175 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 61 ms = 2148721 Bytes/sec = approx 17877 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 62 ins = 2114065 Bytes/sec = approx 17589 kbits/sec

The fact that it becomes very, very poor later in the day does support the contention that traffic management is being applied judiciously.

BBKing
28-04-2008, 13:32
STM has nothing to do with improving the average users experience. It has everything to do with allowing VM to continue overloading the network with new punters and endeavouring to lock them into 12 month contracts without upgrading or with only limited upgrades to the network

If this was true, which it isn't, we'd be reducing the number of new UBRs going into the network each week, wouldn't we? Since we're not, it's not true.

Sput
29-04-2008, 14:21
Speed this afternoon is excellent:-

Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:19:04 GMT
1st 128K took 63 ins = 2080508 Bytes/sec = approx 17310 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 46 ins = 2849391 Bytes/sec = approx 23707 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 63 ins = 2080508 Bytes/sec = approx 17310 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 47 ins = 2788766 Bytes/sec = approx 23203 kbits/sec

hokkers999
30-04-2008, 13:12
It's people like you who cause VM to give download limits, what do you expect VM to do if you mean to go over the limit to **** them off? Offer to upgrade your service as long as you stop being a pain?





Actually what you meant to write was "it's people like you who have the nerve to actually use what they have paid for"

When you phrase it that way it looks different doesn't it?

You conveniently seem to forget that their is NO LIMIT, the service is advertised and sold as UNLIMITED. IF it isn't then sell it as such - you can download 40 gig a month or whatever.

If they can't do it at that price then up the price. If someone truly wants unlimited max speed downloads they can either pay or cut their usage. It's not that difficult really.

Sput
30-04-2008, 19:44
Actually what you meant to write was "it's people like you who have the nerve to actually use what they have paid for"

When you phrase it that way it looks different doesn't it?

You conveniently seem to forget that their is NO LIMIT, the service is advertised and sold as UNLIMITED. IF it isn't then sell it as such - you can download 40 gig a month or whatever.

If they can't do it at that price then up the price. If someone truly wants unlimited max speed downloads they can either pay or cut their usage. It's not that difficult really.

Here, here. My sentiments exactly:clap:

CrowmanUK
30-04-2008, 19:50
work out how much you download as a percentage of what you could download if you left it running 24/7 and its nothing, hardly unlimited.

Jelly
30-04-2008, 20:44
Actually what you meant to write was "it's people like you who have the nerve to actually use what they have paid for"

When you phrase it that way it looks different doesn't it?

You conveniently seem to forget that their is NO LIMIT, the service is advertised and sold as UNLIMITED. IF it isn't then sell it as such - you can download 40 gig a month or whatever.

If they can't do it at that price then up the price. If someone truly wants unlimited max speed downloads they can either pay or cut their usage. It's not that difficult really.

The service is sold as unlimited with an Acceptable Usage Policy. This AUP probably contains all the STM rules.

Your traffic is not limited, hokkers, but your download and upload speed is.

hokkers999
30-04-2008, 21:37
The service is sold as unlimited with an Acceptable Usage Policy. This AUP probably contains all the STM rules.

Your traffic is not limited, hokkers, but your download and upload speed is.

Right, so if I choose to download non stop 24/7 then that's my choice isn't it?

homealone
30-04-2008, 22:14
Right, so if I choose to download non stop 24/7 then that's my choice isn't it?

subject to the AUP & the rules of STM then, theoretically, yes - but I would class that kind of approach to be analogous to someone leaving their bath tap running to waste all day, just because they pay water rates & are not metered....

To take one popular genre of download, HD television, blu-ray, etc has had (is having? ) a huge impact on media file sizes, but even so, the media still takes as long to watch, no matter what the resolution....

Just me, possibly, but I would struggle to find space for & actually watch the result of downloading even hi-res media 24/7 ???

Jelly
02-05-2008, 07:52
Right, so if I choose to download non stop 24/7 then that's my choice isn't it?

It's a waste if you're doing it to boycott or otherwise annoy VM. You're not going to do anything other than slow your browsing and other downloads.

Sput
02-05-2008, 16:35
Right, so if I choose to download non stop 24/7 then that's my choice isn't it?

Indeed it is. But so too are the consequences and, if it were me, I would not welcome the consequences so I would not download 24/7 - it's called self preservation!

Sput
03-05-2008, 20:32
It looks like my 20 meg service is being traffic managed again:-

Sat, 03 May 2008 18:29:12 GMT
1st 128K took 766 ms = 171112 Bytes/sec = approx 1424 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 552 ms = 237449 Bytes/sec = approx 1976 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 832 ms = 157538 Bytes/sec = approx 1311 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 662 ins = 197994 Bytes/sec = approx 1647 kbits/sec

This speed is about a tenth of what I should be getting!! :mad:

|Kippa|
03-05-2008, 21:10
To be honest if it is STM you should be at least getting 5mbit. There might be other issues at hand there.

TheDon
03-05-2008, 21:14
Actually what you meant to write was "it's people like you who have the nerve to actually use what they have paid for"

When you phrase it that way it looks different doesn't it?

You conveniently seem to forget that their is NO LIMIT, the service is advertised and sold as UNLIMITED. IF it isn't then sell it as such - you can download 40 gig a month or whatever.

If they can't do it at that price then up the price. If someone truly wants unlimited max speed downloads they can either pay or cut their usage. It's not that difficult really.

You are paying for a contended service, if you want 20meg of gaurenteed bandwidth that you can use 24/7 then go get yourself a leased line, then you can come back and complain at how expensive they actually are. Instead you can "use what you pay for" which ISN'T a gaurenteed 20meg. It's a service that's capable of delivering a 20meg speed, with an average per subscriber speed of more like 1meg, quite possibly even lower.

The service *IS* unlimited, there is no limit to how much you can download, speed restrictions do not change it from being unlimited as at no point will your internet be cut if you reach an arbituary limit.

However you also have to understand that it is contended, that means that whilst there is no set limit to how much you can download, there is a limit to how much can be supplied to a set of customers at any one time. Incidently, the speed when you're capped by STM are still considerably higher than what you'd get if everyone was "using what they paid for".

You say up the price to offer "truly unlimited", but I doubt you truely understand just how much it costs to provided the dedicated bandwidth to each subscriber that would meet your definition of unlimited.

Sput
05-05-2008, 10:14
To be honest if it is STM you should be at least getting 5mbit. There might be other issues at hand there.

That possibility crossed my mind too. However, since I get 20 meg at other times of the day then the only conclusions I can arrive at is that the slow speed is caused by either traffic management or by an overloaded network. This is my latest speed test:-

Mon, 05 May 2008 08:10:22 GMT
1st 128K took 43 ms = 3048186 Bytes/sec = approx 25361 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 49 ms = 2674939 Bytes/sec = approx 22255 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 53 ins = 2473057 Bytes/sec = approx 20576 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 53 ins = 2473057 Bytes/sec = approx 20576 kbits/sec

AndrewJ
05-05-2008, 11:51
I for one am totally screwed at this, I share massive files over a private p2p network for the STBC community based on www.bcfiles.com (http://www.bcfiles.com) and related sites for the private fan base and beta projects. All projects are legal and personal created mods, many of them though can be easily 4-6GB in size, and this explains why my speeds have become stupidly slow recently.

I for one plan on jumping ship, the moment Virgin Morons are open I shall be cancelling my service to find another ISP which can promise me at least a speed per day I can use non stop.

ceedee
05-05-2008, 12:10
I for one plan on jumping ship, the moment Virgin Morons are open I shall be cancelling my service to find another ISP which can promise me at least a speed per day I can use non stop.

:erm:
Best of luck with that!

Berealwith
05-05-2008, 12:11
I for one am totally screwed at this, I share massive files over a private p2p network for the STBC community based on www.bcfiles.com (http://www.bcfiles.com) and related sites for the private fan base and beta projects. All projects are legal and personal created mods, many of them though can be easily 4-6GB in size, and this explains why my speeds have become stupidly slow recently.

I for one plan on jumping ship, the moment Virgin Morons are open I shall be cancelling my service to find another ISP which can promise me at least a speed per day I can use non stop.

I couldn't agree more, those BIGOTS who have posted above have no idea why some people have 20mb connections, they are narrow minded and only have one way at looking at things. i bought 20mb to use it i have 4/5 people on a router here (the 5 person comes on when she comes home from uni) what the hell do they think i will do buy five 2mb connections (i think not) so get of the people who do use it..........and we all steam tv download a bit like most game online............what else do you think i have a 20mb for.................................

and this is why virgin gets up its ass about it..........they only pay for bandwith used not how many connections they have.....

which means if they properly cost their connections in reality they would never oversubscribe, so thats why they have to STM not because of the 5% of high users, because they want you to pay more and dont use your connection

ceedee
05-05-2008, 13:00
I couldn't agree more, those BIGOTS who have posted above have no idea why some people have 20mb connections, they are narrow minded and only have one way at looking at things. i bought 20mb to use it i have 4/5 people on a router here (the 5 person comes on when she comes home from uni) what the hell do they think i will do buy five 2mb connections (i think not) so get of the people who do use it..........and we all steam tv download a bit like most game online............what else do you think i have a 20mb for.................................

and this is why virgin gets up its ass about it..........they only pay for bandwith used not how many connections they have.....

How many reasonably-demanding users do you think your <£39/month connection ought to be able to cope with 24/7?

Would it be reasonable for me to setup multiple wifi access points and expect that all 60 households in my complex can stream TV and download games at the same time of day?

which means if they properly cost their connections in reality they would never oversubscribe, so thats why they have to STM not because of the 5% of high users, because they want you to pay more and dont use your connection

Do your five users accept that only one of them can get (at best) 20Mb/s at any one time?
And that if two of them start fast downloads at the same time, they are likely to only get around 10Mb/s each?

That's contention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contention_ratio) in action -- multiple users sharing the same bandwidth.

Do you accept that all ISPs need to use contention at the UBR or exchange to offer domestic connections at an affordable price?
If not, then your five users (requiring in the region of 4Mb/s each) need to be thinking of paying a lot more than £39/month each for their dedicated connections.

In an ideal network we'd barely notice the contention when demand for bandwidth was high but much of VM's network is oversubscribed and the only solution is to provide greater capacity. This is precisely what VM's DOCSIS3 programme will do albeit 'following' the demand curve rather than in anticipation of it.

Oh, and please don't make personal attacks on other posters: it's offensive and diminishes your argument.

Sirius
05-05-2008, 13:05
Oh, and please don't make personal attacks on other posters: it's offensive and diminishes your argument.

I have always said that if you resort to personal attacks you have lost the argument and should stop there. Having a go at people on this forum be it those members of staff that post here or the many posters who spend time here will NOT fix your problem.


Good post CeeDee:tu:

AndrewJ
05-05-2008, 13:16
:erm:
Best of luck with that!

Then it's offline, I am not asking for maximum speed all day but I want the speed when I need it, not to have it cut out just because I have the nerve to use what I pay for.

I have to run more than one computer since myself and my partner live here, and also I have family and kids over so game consoles are in use aswell online * no fun vs AI *

Coupled with me legitimatly sharing files over the torrent network for the STBC mod community and the new limitations of the system are too much.

And by principle of the matter I refuse to pay for a service of which I am paying a premium now of which is not fit for purpose.

Angry@VMedia
05-05-2008, 13:18
snip
The service *IS* unlimited, there is no limit to how much you can download, speed restrictions do not change it from being unlimited as at no point will your internet be cut if you reach an arbituary limit.

This is where you are wrong.
What do you call STM then? they LIMIT your speeds, which in effect means they LIMIT how much you can download/upload per day.
And all this rubbish about ONLY being STM'ed if you are in the top 5% this is rubbish!

Say I am the only person in a village with virgin's internet, and I go over my LIMITS, how the hell can I be within the top 5%?
Virgin are just using this scamming technique so they can cram more people on the already well over-subscribed network, thus increasing their PROFITS while ripping customers off as they are in effect STEALING already paid for bandwidth, and as we all know, the more customers they cram on, the less speed we will get, and this is the ONLY reason why they are doing it.

Now anyone could just come back with "but they are constantly upgrading their network" answer: WRONG!!!
IF they are indeed constantly upgrading their network,then WHY are people STILL saying they have poor speeds?
Virgin IMO would NEVER do anything to help its customers, quite the contrary, they do EVERYTHING they can to screw us customers over, this is FACT!

Rant over now :)

Berealwith
05-05-2008, 13:19
Connection 60 households? No just one router (and virgin sells routers) and my router has port throttling on I have it set for each member. When I set about making my LAN I took all this into consideration, but most don’t have any idea.

Regarding contention and the 5% of high users I do accept the price for a good service, but we don't get that and it’s not the high user's fault, which always get the finger pointed at. It's virgin's fault for not getting their gamble right, or for that matter listening to their customers.

and no you won’t get an apology for saying some people on here are BIGOTS, they are and no matter how many times you try to educate them they still won’t see the wood because of the trees...

ceedee
05-05-2008, 15:01
Connection 60 households? No just one router (and virgin sells routers) and my router has port throttling on I have it set for each member.
If you accept that applying contention rules is appropriate for your LAN then why do you think it's unacceptable for VM to do the same at the UBR?
What bandwidth would you think is satisfactory for each of your five users at peak times?

Regarding contention and the 5% of high users I do accept the price for a good service, but we don't get that and it’s not the high user's fault, which always get the finger pointed at. It's virgin's fault for not getting their gamble right, or for that matter listening to their customers.

I'd agree that VM should have predicted the huge increase in bandwidth demand and increased capacity earlier. As I understand it, VM's current network has been designed to cope with a contention ratio (apparently 20:1) based on most users consuming just 3GB/month.
In that light, it's not surprising that currently 5% of users (myself included) expect far more than that and it's our (above average) usage that's 'overloading' the network.
In response, VM are investing in DOCSIS3 which should increase capacity next year.
But even then, you'll be very unlikely to be able to download at 20Mb/s at peak times when everybody else is online -- just like your LAN users.

and no you won’t get an apology for saying some people on here are BIGOTS, they are and no matter how many times you try to educate them they still won’t see the wood because of the trees...

I didn't ask for an apology, I simply pointed out that personal attacks were offensive and wouldn't help you "educate" posters who don't see things your way.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Then it's offline, I am not asking for maximum speed all day but I want the speed when I need it, not to have it cut out just because I have the nerve to use what I pay for.
[...]
And by principle of the matter I refuse to pay for a service of which I am paying a premium now of which is not fit for purpose.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you want to have your maximum speed available whenever you want it, regardless of other customers' usage. To get that you'll need an uncontended connection or a network running way below it's economically affordable level.
Expect to pay an awful lot more than VM's current charges!

Again I wish you the best of luck in finding it.

AndrewJ
05-05-2008, 15:21
I never said a maximum speed, I am happy with 50% of my speed even 30%, what I am not happy about is having my speed cut for hours on end.

I don't mind a slower network, I do mine a retarded one.

Each person to their own view.

Berealwith
05-05-2008, 15:23
Hi ceedee,
you missed out the bit where i said "When I set about making my LAN I took all this into consideration". Thats what it is all about, i didn't think for one minute i wouldn't have to, i also told them what i could deliver. Note i don't gamble with other poeple's money or service. That's what you would expect to get from me, so i expect from other's, i am to long in the tooth to suffer fools.

Yes i do get fustrated at others comments, on here all they seem to do is knock high user's and dont think about others, so sometimes i voice my view from another prospective. what i find wrong is they never seem to get "hold on mate there are other reasons why people want 20mb connection, and not just to download 24/7.

It's virgins (new name bought for frontend but still NTL/TW) fault that couldn't provide a stable network and why so many upgrade's are needed. "They simply got it wrong", hence the high level of STM.

IF and a big IF in a years time VM are investing in DOCSIS3 which should increase capacity next year, brings about a better service then i might come back.

But nothing will change, The ironic thing they have done was to keep upgrading for nothing 4mb to 10mb, 10mb to 20mb..........It makes no sense at all

Jelly
05-05-2008, 18:20
This is where you are wrong.
What do you call STM then? they LIMIT your speeds, which in effect means they LIMIT how much you can download/upload per day.

That is a limit nobody can remove: the amount of data you could download in a day at full speed is decided by the speed you pay for. Moving to Be* or similar would not get rid of that limit. This is no different when STM'd.

Berealwith
05-05-2008, 19:42
Just thought i post this

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/948/ffev1.jpg

mcmanic
05-05-2008, 22:02
the thing is with STM and probably annoying most is that we have had STM awhile now and VM keep changing the rules and not really informing anyone and us the end users are getting a resticted service which isn't getting any better even with STM. Thats whats annoying. Its as if STM is being used to actually keep the service going due to VM over subscribing and not updating the network and then blaming the heavy users,

end result is they can limit your download/uploads, you have to pay top package to get any decent level of service.

sucks TBH, going backwards instead of forwards. Soon we will have 2hour disconnects just like dialup days, lol

TraxData
05-05-2008, 22:08
That is a limit nobody can remove: the amount of data you could download in a day at full speed is decided by the speed you pay for. Moving to Be* or similar would not get rid of that limit. This is no different when STM'd.

-rolls eyes-

Difference here would be without STM your only limited by the actual connection your paying for, with STM they are purposely taking 75% of it away from you thus restricting your speed and restricting the amount of data you can download.

Ed2020
05-05-2008, 22:46
I just wish they'd drop the new 50Mb service, drop the 20Mb service and go back to a non-shaped 10Mb as the top end connection.

They're blatantly increasing their top end speeds to appear competitive with the faster ADSL services. It's all nonsense because their network can't deliver what they're promising and most of the ADSL providers are in the same boat.

I'd much rather have a 10Mb line that where I didn't have to watch my download amounts than a 20Mb (or 50Mb or 100Mb for that matter) connection where I do. I'd probably even pay more for it!

I'd like to say I'd move if this came into effect, but I'm not sure this alone would do it.

Now if they implement Phorm or their three-strikes rule that would be entirely different story!

Ed

ceedee
05-05-2008, 22:52
I just wish they'd drop the new 50Mb service, drop the 20Mb service and go back to a non-shaped 10Mb as the top end connection.

Won't this be the situation once DOCSIS3 is in place for the 50Mb and 20Mb services?

Angry@VMedia
05-05-2008, 22:57
That is a limit nobody can remove: the amount of data you could download in a day at full speed is decided by the speed you pay for. Moving to Be* or similar would not get rid of that limit. This is no different when STM'd.

So there we have it, virgin media's internet IS LIMITED!!!

And why on earth are they STILL advertising it as UNLIMITED?

Ed2020
05-05-2008, 23:02
Won't this be the situation once DOCSIS3 is in place for the 50Mb and 20Mb services?

Dropping STM for the 10Mb? I doubt it, but I certainly hope so. As far as I'm concerned that would make the move from 20Mb to 10Mb an upgrade, and presumably with a cost reduction as well! :)

Ed.

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

So there we have it, virgin media's internet IS LIMITED!!!

And why on earth are they STILL advertising it as UNLIMITED?

I think they mean "unlimited, relative to more limited services". I guess you could apply that logic to just about anything really....

Ed.

Sput
06-05-2008, 20:18
I have just found this article describing a process designed by Samknows.com to measure real ISP performance and expose marketing "bandwidth smokescreens":-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/06/samknows_broadband_performance/


It will be interesting to see the results of this exercise.

Robertus
06-05-2008, 20:24
I sent Neil an e-mail this morning...e-mail and reply:

Hi there,

How are you on this fine morning?

Anyway, I would just like to voice my concerns over STM. At the moment
the current STM (4:00pm-9:00pm) is "ok".

Now if the company decides to go with 10:00am and beyond then quite
frankly that is quite ridiculous.

With the advent of the iPlayer, demos, itunes, free games - it would be
impossible to use the 20mb connection. I would be limited within 20minutes.

Now I have been with Blueyonder since they introduced the 512kb service
and it was awesome - infact it's still awesome. We rarely have any issues.

So if you really want to stand out over the ADSL crowd - please, please
do not go down the 24 hour STM route, nor the 10:00 - 3:00/4:00 - 9:00
avenue.

People will just jump ship to Be* or even worse Sky.

I'm presuming that this e-mail will go unanswered, but if you really do
want my make broadband your main focus - don't hit us with 9+ hours of STM.

Regards,

Robert.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Thx for your comments. My focus is to improve not reduce our Quality of Service. The bonding technology we are deploying will go a long way to addressing this desired improvement.




Now I don't know if the e-mail posted here was legit or not, no idea. It could be a random person replying to me for all I know.

ceedee
06-05-2008, 21:21
I sent Neil an e-mail this morning...e-mail and reply:
[...]
Thx for your comments. My focus is to improve not reduce our Quality of Service. The bonding technology we are deploying will go a long way to addressing this desired improvement.
Now I don't know if the e-mail posted here was legit or not, no idea. It could be a random person replying to me for all I know.

Regardless of who replied to your email, what I understand the answer to actually mean is that VM believe that upgrading to DOCSIS3 over the next 9 months or so and then transferring the 50Mb/s (and reportedly, 20Mb/s) connections over to it, should relieve the pressure on bandwidth for the M and L level users.

At that point, I guess there's a chance that STM could be reduced or withdrawn but until then...

AndrewJ
06-05-2008, 21:48
Well if they are willing to offer a truly unlimited service for MORE money I would be interested.

As it stands per an email I sent and was replied to today I am giving them a few more month while I search about for costs of moving ISP if things are still in this state then I shall have little choice to move.

Jelly
06-05-2008, 21:59
So there we have it, virgin media's internet IS LIMITED!!!

And why on earth are they STILL advertising it as UNLIMITED?

Unlimited downloads in the technical sense would mean unlimited speed: we, in this universe, are limited by the speed of light, which has a direct effect on our fiber-optic connections and thus the amount of data we can download. There are no limits put in place by VM, but there are limits put in by the customer, who pays for a certain speed, and the laws of physics.

ceedee
06-05-2008, 22:21
Well if they are willing to offer a truly unlimited service for MORE money I would be interested.

I don't believe any ISP will be able to offer a contended service that guarantees that you'll be able to download as much as you want, when you want it, at a quoted (ie. fixed) speed.

To get that, you need a managed or leased connection that, I suspect, will cost far more than you'll be willing to pay.

AndrewJ
06-05-2008, 22:23
It is unlimited as in even with a slower speed you can still download an unlimited amount of data, you are not charged per MB as with some providers or even cut off as in some cases.

So it is still UNLIMITED in the sense of the above.

---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------

I don't believe any ISP will be able to offer a contended service that guarantees that you'll be able to download as much as you want, when you want it, at a quoted (ie. fixed) speed.

To get that, you need a managed or leased connection that, I suspect, will cost far more than you'll be willing to pay.

Very true, perhaps what I mean is a decent overhead in relation to my speed and modern day internet usage.

I'd be happy to fork out £50 a month for 50MB down 1.5MB up with a 10GB cap per 24hour period.

I think that sounds fair?

ceedee
07-05-2008, 02:24
Very true, perhaps what I mean is a decent overhead in relation to my speed and modern day internet usage.

I'd be happy to fork out £50 a month for 50MB down 1.5MB up with a 10GB cap per 24hour period.

I think that sounds fair?

But your £50 buys you a contended connection -- if a large number of other 50Mb/s customers on the same UBR want to download at the same time, your speed will fall.

I had a look at the Zen Internet website (http://www.zen.co.uk) earlier and they offer <8Mb/s download / 832Kb/s upload with no download restrictions for just £79+vat.
But down at the bottom of the page (http://www.zen.co.uk/Broadband/ML_Business/medium-large-business-broadband.aspx), you find:
Please note:
* Actual Broadband download speeds will be no higher than 7,150Kbps
* BT Wholesale estimates that 78% of customers will achieve Broadband download speeds of 4Mbps and above.
* Fluctuation in Broadband line speed is expected to occur within the first 10 days of service whilst your line speed adapts to the maximum it can reliably support.
* It is likely that Broadband speeds no greater than 2Mbps will be achieved at peak usage times.
* Broadband speeds are affected by line length, quality and peak Internet usage periods and will range from 160Kbps to 7150Kbps. Further details on what affects speeds is available in our support knowledgebase.
:(

TraxData
07-05-2008, 02:26
It is unlimited as in even with a slower speed you can still download an unlimited amount of data, you are not charged per MB as with some providers or even cut off as in some cases.

So it is still UNLIMITED in the sense of the above.

---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:22 ----------



Very true, perhaps what I mean is a decent overhead in relation to my speed and modern day internet usage.

I'd be happy to fork out £50 a month for 50MB down 1.5MB up with a 10GB cap per 24hour period.

I think that sounds fair?

So you'd happily pay £50/month for a connection with a cap which you could hit within what, 30 minutes...

And again, you wont get 50mbit down with only 1.5mbit up.

annabd
07-05-2008, 10:28
Grr... We're with Virgin ADSL broadband and they've capped us. We're in a student house with 5 users (it's secure) but we don't excessively download anything. The occasional song but no movies or streaming. So why have we been capped?

About 10 days ago i downloaded some programming software which was about 100MB, do you think this could have caused it?

Is there anything we can do? They are saying we'll be capped between 4 and midnight until Sunday. Which is sooo annoying.

Having spoken to them again i've been told that we've gone over 5G. This is ridiculous... there's no way we've gone over 5G. My housemates are all yelling at me... i'm the only one who understands computers/networks in our house, so apparently it's all my fault.

AndrewJ
07-05-2008, 11:31
So you'd happily pay £50/month for a connection with a cap which you could hit within what, 30 minutes...

And again, you wont get 50mbit down with only 1.5mbit up.

Depends if I am downloading flat out, and let us be honest not many people can do that :)

Most of the time I am uploading constantly over a network to people on slower downloads whom cannot download the larger 5GB + mods so use torrents.

I am pretty sure things will be changing soon for both 20MB and 50MB :)

Ed2020
11-05-2008, 02:23
Now I don't know if the e-mail posted here was legit or not, no idea. It could be a random person replying to me for all I know.

I don't have any concrete evidence but I am pretty sure Neil is replying in person to these emails. If he is then I have to give him a certain amount of credit for it, despite my *numerous* misgivings about some of the things VM are doing/planning at the moment.

Ed.

deed02392
11-05-2008, 13:13
I have just found this article describing a process designed by Samknows.com to measure real ISP performance and expose marketing "bandwidth smokescreens":-

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/06/samknows_broadband_performance/


It will be interesting to see the results of this exercise.

I just signed up. I also very much look forward to seeing the results of this exercise, and would also like to be within the loop. :D

TraxData
11-05-2008, 15:53
Depends if I am downloading flat out, and let us be honest not many people can do that :)

Most of the time I am uploading constantly over a network to people on slower downloads whom cannot download the larger 5GB + mods so use torrents.

I am pretty sure things will be changing soon for both 20MB and 50MB :)

Not many people do that? you think people are gonna pay £50/month for a premium package just to view emails quicker?

Think about, the whole point of a fast connection is to download faster, not download faster, hit a limit then get cut back 75%

It completely takes away the whole god damn point of having a fast connection.

And 10GB is way, way, way too low.

AndrewJ
12-05-2008, 21:22
How about you come up with a decent offer then sunshine.

|Kippa|
12-05-2008, 21:35
The principle of having a quota isn't a bad one. Personally in my opinion I am against it, but what I think some people are arguing 10gb a day just doesn't cut it. 10gb about 4 years ago would have been plently and ample, but not today. The goal posts constantly keep moving and for a 20mbit connection having a 10gb a day just isn't enough. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that people with 20mbit go over 10gb every day, it is just that every so often people use more than 10gb a day easly.

Mick Fisher
13-05-2008, 02:12
10gig a day, wow! that's 70gig a week.

I rarely go over 70gig a month.

But you are right, it's good to have just for on that odd occasion. :)

pip08456
13-05-2008, 04:21
I've had a decent read of this thread and have to agree with all those complaining about STM. In my area we are limited to the HUGE amount of 750Mb between 4.00pm-12.00pm.

Personally I'm jumping ship and going to BePro which including the cost of the BT line will be less than I pay VM now And no I don't have a TV package from VM so it would appear I gain and VM loose.

Berealwith
13-05-2008, 07:23
I live in a STM Trial area..............It's got to be the worst thing ever..........Does anyone know how these bloody trials will last............If you test something you know how long your going to be doing it, dont you ??

DipsTheOne
13-05-2008, 09:09
Im not in a STM area but it happens to me every night 9pm on wards and some times 4pm onwards, even though I dont download much might be a few demo's, This STM is efecting my gameing On line with cod4 Makes it laggy on most servers and making me want to move ship I don't want to has when its not STM its a very good line .

ceedee
13-05-2008, 10:24
Im not in a STM area but it happens to me every night 9pm on wards and some times 4pm onwards, even though I dont download much might be a few demo's, This STM is efecting my gameing On line with cod4 Makes it laggy on most servers and making me want to move ship I don't want to has when its not STM its a very good line .

I suspect that what you're seeing (after 9pm) is congestion at your local UBR (or perhaps a 'busy' source) -- according to VM, that's what it would be like from 4pm if they'd not brought in STM.

The congestion should improve once 20Mb/s users are transferred to DoCSIS3 later in the year.

Wossi
13-05-2008, 15:38
Since the clocks changed I now can't download anything until 10pm. After that it's fine. I forgot and was in the process of downloading about 1.4gb last night when I realised the connection was slow, checked and I was down to 2mb speeds.

If what you say is true about the 20mb users, then hopefully they can relax the stm limits and or times.

pip08456
13-05-2008, 17:57
I wouldn't be so bothered and willing to jump ship if I had actually been informed of this trial happening.

However they didn''t and that to me is an abuse of the T's & C's and of the consumer credit act.

Had they informed me then I would have willingly changed my download habits, although the 750Mb limit is very restricting, so much for Uma Therman advertising "you can download me as much as you want, when you want".

As far as being the fastest BB connection in the UK that is in doubt due to BeThere offering up to 24Mbs and on their BePro package (BePro users should expect 22 Mbs D/L) offering up to 2.5Mbs upload.

I have no sympathy for a company that is so short sighted that it cannot (or will not) deliver on it's promises. To implement STM shows a considerable lack of foresight when it is effecting more than the 3 or 5% they are complaining about.

I don't give a toss about the TV package (I haven't had one for at least 2 years) as most of it is repeats and I can migrate my phone no to BT. Not going to cause me a problem!

coderGeek29
16-05-2008, 20:41
Has anyone experienced any application (ie P2P) throttling? Not just limiting download speeds during certain hours, but actually trying to slow down BitTorrents?

The reason I ask is that for a month or so now, I've been getting some really slow (~2kb/s) speeds on BitTorrent. At first, I thought it was a problem with my connection so I ran some speed tests and sure enough I was only getting ~100kb/s. So, I phoned Virgin who told me there was a known issue in my area and they would be fixing it on May 16. To my utter amazement, May 16th rolls around, and it's been fixed - I'm getting ~15Mb/s now!! Alas, though, BitTorrent is still as slow as ever :(.

Then, I get the idea to see if they are actively monitoring the connection and restricting certain applications, so I change the port in Transmission and enable encryption. Then BOOM, things speed up straight away and I'm now getting ~60kb/s.

ceedee
16-05-2008, 21:19
Has anyone experienced any application (ie P2P) throttling? Not just limiting download speeds during certain hours, but actually trying to slow down BitTorrents?
Not noticed it lately but there have been several rumours that it's coming real soon now...

Then, I get the idea to see if they are actively monitoring the connection and restricting certain applications, so I change the port in Transmission and enable encryption. Then BOOM, things speed up straight away and I'm now getting ~60kb/s.
60kb/s?
Like 8kB/s? or 60kB/s? :erm:

I'll do some evaluation downloads later this evening but could I suggest you do the Glastnost test (http://broadband.mpi-sws.mpg.de/transparency/bttest.php)?
(Probably best to wait until the post-9pm rush settles down, if at all possible.)

Background info on the Glasnost test from TorrentFreak
(http://torrentfreak.com/test-does-your-isp-slow-down-bittorrent-traffic-080507/)

leadbelly
16-05-2008, 22:20
The principle of having a quota isn't a bad one. Personally in my opinion I am against it, but what I think some people are arguing 10gb a day just doesn't cut it. 10gb about 4 years ago would have been plently and ample, but not today. The goal posts constantly keep moving and for a 20mbit connection having a 10gb a day just isn't enough. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that people with 20mbit go over 10gb every day, it is just that every so often people use more than 10gb a day easly.

lol

well put it this way... i have a 2mb connection and my limit is only 300mb a day. now that is absolutely ridiculous. i have my PC, xbox 360 and PS3 all running from that connection so that means i will reach that practically everyday.

300mb is a couple of game trailers downloaded on xbox live. because my connection speed isn't that fast to begin with, it means stuff like game demos and movies that are digitally distributed over xbox live would take a matter of hours. when they cap you, it will take twice the amount of time, so what was like an hour and a half download, suddenly turns into 3 hours.

i pay money for xbox live. my usage of the service is being restricted so i'm losing out.

icsys
17-05-2008, 01:40
lol

well put it this way... i have a 2mb connection and my limit is only 300mb a day. now that is absolutely ridiculous. i have my PC, xbox 360 and PS3 all running from that connection so that means i will reach that practically everyday.

300mb is a couple of game trailers downloaded on xbox live. because my connection speed isn't that fast to begin with, it means stuff like game demos and movies that are digitally distributed over xbox live would take a matter of hours. when they cap you, it will take twice the amount of time, so what was like an hour and a half download, suddenly turns into 3 hours.

i pay money for xbox live. my usage of the service is being restricted so i'm losing out.

Some would say that 2Mb is insufficient for what you are trying to do with it.

BUT... we pay for speed of connection not the amount that can be downloaded. So it may take five times longer to download a file on 2Mb than it does on 10Mb, that would be my choice.

SO... if VM are trying to force people to pay for a faster connection AND insist on keeping the crappy STM, maybe they should re-advertise the tiers as download thresholds rather than speed??

pip08456
17-05-2008, 04:10
I've had a reply from the ASA about my complaint which goes to several pages.
Unfortunately my scanner is down at the moment otherwise I would make the full text available to you all.

It is worth noting that there are only 2 pages of the missive in reply but also
5 pages of their Adjudication which are watermarked "confidential" (why send them to a member of the public?)''
.
The total number of complaints is 30 one of whom is BSkyB.
So much for all those bitching on here about the service!

I know that my next quote can be construed incorrectly and when my scanner is up and running again the full text will be available.

Virgin Media said

"Virgin said they followed CAP guidance and always qualified their use of "unlimited" and stated that "acceptable use policy applies". They explained that their policy did not limit the amount of data a user could download over any period of time, and it did not have any price implications for heavy users.
They explained that, if a user was found to affect other users bandwidth, they would temporarily limit the speed of that user's internet connection. They said those user's would receive their full connection speed after 240 minutes. They said they planned to publish a list of Frequently Asked Questions on traffic management shortly. They argued that there were no limits to the amount of material that can be downloaded by customers and that the claim "unlimited downloads" was not misleading.

The above paragraph is an extract taken from paragraph 2 of the response by VM to the ASA.

As soon as I get my scanner working again I'll give you a link to the full text.
Forgot to add 750Mb between 4.00pm and 12.00p does not add up to 240 mins!

icsys
17-05-2008, 05:01
So was the complaint upheld or not?

Virgin Media said

"Virgin said they followed CAP guidance and always qualified their use of "unlimited" and stated that "acceptable use policy applies". They explained that their policy did not limit the amount of data a user could download over any period of time, and it did not have any price implications for heavy users.
They explained that, if a user was found to affect other users bandwidth, they would temporarily limit the speed of that user's internet connection. They said those user's would receive their full connection speed after 240 minutes. They said they planned to publish a list of Frequently Asked Questions on traffic management shortly. They argued that there were no limits to the amount of material that can be downloaded by customers and that the claim "unlimited downloads" was not misleading.

The above paragraph is an extract taken from paragraph 2 of the response by VM to the ASA.


So they follow CAP guidelines?

7 TRUTHFULNESS
7.1 No marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.

VM advertise broadband as: 'no download limits'
Yet bury the fact that there is a usage allowance which, when exceeded, initiates Subscriber Traffic Management.
You are referred to the T&Cs and the acceptable use Policy...

Cabled T&Cs
B About our services
4.i. We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the interactive services on your Virgin TV and/or Internet access. In the event that you exceed any usage allowance applicable to your Internet access or your use does not comply with the 'acceptable use policy' which you can read on the Virgin Media website, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet access.

No mention of actual STM or link to the STM which contains details of the usage allowance, referred to in the T&Cs, before being throttled.

The AUP does not mention or link to the STM, only a link to section J (Ending the agreement) of the T&Cs

So where are the STM details?
Hidden under the 'Need to know' tab.
Omitted from the package sales details.
Omitted from the AUP and T&Cs

I would agree that there isn't technically a download limit. whether on 20Mb or 2Mb, you can still download a large file... it just takes ten times longer.

The misleading advertising for me is the fact that I pay for a 10Mb connection but for up to 9 hours a day it can potentially be as little as 2.5Mb because I have exceeded a usage allowance that is not clearly defined on a no download limit connection.

Jelly
17-05-2008, 10:02
icsys, Virgin do not place any limits on the amount of data that can be downloaded. If you download a file or files non-stop for an entire month your connection will still work and no extra fees will go on your monthly bill. That is what an unlimited connection is.

As for your complaint about STM, it is in the small print and you agreed with it when you signed up.

ceedee
17-05-2008, 13:34
Has anyone experienced any application (ie P2P) throttling? Not just limiting download speeds during certain hours, but actually trying to slow down BitTorrents?
Trial BitTorrent downloads on my 4Mb/s connection late last night and this morning produced monitored speeds of 2.5Mb/s and 3.2Mb/s respectively regardless of having encryption set on or off.
Which suggests that (in my area, at least) there's no obvious throttling of the most likely candidate, bittorrent, right now.
:angel:

grungernut
17-05-2008, 14:14
STM serves its purpose and is generally fair when it works properly but the upcoming STM on business customers (currently being secretly trialed) doesnt make much sense.

TraxData
17-05-2008, 14:15
STM serves its purpose and for is generally fair when it works properly but the upcoming STM on business customers (currently being secretly trialed) doesnt make much sense.

No longer a trial for some.

Some already have the 20mbit upgrade with the same STM limits as residential.

piggy
17-05-2008, 14:24
No longer a trial for some.

Some already have the 20mbit upgrade with the same STM limits as residential.

and so they should unless they want to pay a proper price

broadbandbug
17-05-2008, 16:29
I live in a STM Trial area..............It's got to be the worst thing ever..........Does anyone know how these bloody trials will last............If you test something you know how long your going to be doing it, dont you ??

The trial will last until it gets rolled out nationally then it won't be a trial anymore:D
Think the end of June and you won't be far wrong!

---------- Post added at 15:29 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

No longer a trial for some.

Some already have the 20mbit upgrade with the same STM limits as residential.

Business 20Mb/s Broadband has different (higher) STM Limits from residential.. If users are not seeing that then they have the incorrect config.;)

icsys
17-05-2008, 21:05
icsys, Virgin do not place any limits on the amount of data that can be downloaded. If you download a file or files non-stop for an entire month your connection will still work and no extra fees will go on your monthly bill. That is what an unlimited connection is.
I 'm not sure why you are referring me to this as I clearly stated the same albeit in a different way...
I would agree that there isn't technically a download limit. whether on 20Mb or 2Mb, you can still download a large file... it just takes ten times longer.

As for your complaint about STM, it is in the small print and you agreed with it when you signed up.

I am not complaining per-se about the STM. If the threshold limits were reasonable (I consider 1200MB to be reasonable for the 'L' tier in the evenings) then there is no real problem. Naturally though, I would prefer a totaly unlimited broadband experience.

For your information. STM was not in existence when I signed up in 2002 (and if by some chance it was, it was not brought to my attention).

Above all, The STM needs to be consistent, and hopefully when the trials are completed there will be fairer thresholds and full transparency so that everyone will know exactly what to expect.

I do not recall being informed that my area was to be placed on a STM trial. I had to find out through public forums. People were finding their speeds reduced during the afternoon without reason and when querying why, finding out about the extended trial hours.

Are we likely to be told when the trial ends and what the new STM is going to be?

hokkers999
18-05-2008, 01:05
icsys, Virgin do not place any limits on the amount of data that can be downloaded. If you download a file or files non-stop for an entire month your connection will still work and no extra fees will go on your monthly bill. That is what an unlimited connection is.

As for your complaint about STM, it is in the small print and you agreed with it when you signed up.

Afraid you are wrong there. When *I* signed up back in April 2000 there was no such thing as STM, so I certainly COULDN'T have agreed to it could I? :dunce:

Jelly
18-05-2008, 11:26
You agreed that the terms of use could be changed at VM's/Telewest's/NTL's discretion, AFAIK.

icsys
18-05-2008, 16:49
There is a clause to that effect

H Changing this agreement

We and/or Virgin Media Payments may at any time improve, modify, amend or alter the terms of this agreement and/or the services and their content if:
there is any change or amendment to any law or regulation which applies to us or Virgin Media Payments or the services we provide to you;

we decide that the services should be altered for reasons of quality of service or otherwise for the benefit of our customers or, in our reasonable opinion, it is necessary to do so;

for security, technical or operational reasons;

if the changes or additions are minor and do not affect you significantly or we wish to have all our customers on the same terms and conditions;
or
in all other events, where we reasonably determine that any modification to our system or change in our trading, operating or business practices or policy is necessary to maintain or improve the services which we provide to you.

However, you will have the right to cancel the affected services or end this agreement if the changes are significant, as described in paragraph J3


J Ending this agreement

3. If:
we and/or Virgin Media Payments increase our charges under this agreement;
we make significant changes to the services so the services you are entitled to receive in return for the charges you pay are significantly altered or reduced; or
we and/or Virgin Media Payments make significant changes to the terms and conditions of this agreement (including the other legal stuff),
you may cancel those services affected without penalty by giving us at least 30 days' notice in writing.

I would argue that because customers are not notified of changes to T&Cs (other than changes in pricing) then it is impossible to know whether any change is 'significant' and warrants cancellation of the service.

TraxData
19-05-2008, 17:21
Someone has been printing these off and posting them in the area's around here...lol...

Trybrow
25-05-2008, 23:48
Im from blackpool & the new traffic management times dont make any sense to me.

why are they trailing them without telling us? with the experiment we are currently blind, and when they implement it, we will no longer be blind and therefore the results drawn from the experiment will no longer be cogent because people will alter their downloading appropriately.

I just started downloading at 9:03 and immediately i got traffic managed. i had downloaded quite a lot before 9 but stopped before i got managed. i dont think they stop the traffic management policy quite at 9 o'clock.... like any company they want to get the most money they can by manipulating the situation as much as possible. i won't be renewing my contract.

k4021
25-05-2008, 23:59
Heres the link explaining how the traffic managing thing is supposed to work IT ALSO STATES THAT
"The updated traffic management policy is now in place across the network."!!!!! .
It seems virgin have secretly started using it without informing any of its customers as I have been having problems with my broadband as it has been very slow recently and thought i would investigate.
This is copied from

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html


Here at Virgin Media, we want all our customers to get the best service possible from their Broadband. That means speedy downloads for all users - not just a few.

When someone is downloading and/or uploading a particularly large amount of information over a long period of time, it can slow down the Internet speed for other users who might just be checking their email or browsing online. So to make sure our service is fair for everybody, we sometimes moderate the speeds during peak times (4pm till 9pm) for customers who are downloading and/or uploading an unusually large amount at these times.

This ensures that the service doesn't get blocked up with people using more than their fair share – which means a lot fewer traffic jams.
Will my download speed be affected?

Your speed won't be moderated unless you're in the top 3% of users (uploaders and downloaders). Our boffins ran a trial to see how much our service was being affected. They discovered that, in certain areas, just 3% of customers were uploading and/or downloading such a large amount of content that it was affecting the service for other users in these areas.

There is some overlap in the 3% of uploaders and the 3% of downloaders. Our data has identified that the top 3% of uploaders and downloaders makes up fewer than 5% of all users.

And we're not talking about just a few video clips. In some cases the top 3% of uploaders and downloaders were using as much as 3GB, just during peak times. That's around 750 music tracks in the space of a few hours.

So, unless you're using an unusually large amount of information at peak times, we won't restrict your service and you can use to your heart's content.
Aren't you simply trying to cut costs?

We've never believed in cutting costs for the sake of it. We want to deliver the best possible value to all our customers - and that's exactly what we're doing. That's why we've recently doubled the speed of our top broadband package up to a supersonic 20Mb, and will be launching 50Mb broadband services in the future.
When will this new policy be launched?

The updated traffic management policy is now in place across the network. The policy for the 10Mb profile of the 'L' broadband package is rolled out as the package speeds are increased from 4Mb. More information can be found at www.virginmedia.com/evenfaster on the timescales for the rollout.
What traffic management policies are you applying to the heaviest users?

That depends on the broadband package you're signed up to. And it's important to remember that these traffic management policies only apply during peak times (4pm till 9pm) - as this is when the speeds are likely to be affected by people using more than their fair share.
The Technical stuff

Here are some details about the different thresholds for each broadband service:
Broadband Size: M

During peak times, the top 3% of downloaders on the Size: M package download at least 300MB of traffic each, with the top 3% of uploaders uploading at least 150MB of traffic each.

Any users hitting this amount during peak times (4pm till 9pm) will have their broadband speed temporarily traffic managed - their download speed will be set to 1Mb, with their upload speed set to 128Kb. This will last for 5 hours from when the traffic management policy is applied.

Even if a Broadband Size: M user has their speed temporarily traffic managed, they can still download over 2,500 music files per day.
Broadband Size: L

During peak times, the top 3% of downloaders on the Size: L package download at least 800MB of traffic each, with the top 3% of uploaders uploading at least 325MB of traffic each.

Any users hitting this amount during peak times (4pm till 9pm) will have their broadband speed temporarily traffic managed - their download speed will be set to 1Mb, with their upload speed set to 128Kb. This will last for 5 hours from when the traffic management policy is applied.

Even if a Broadband: Size L user has their speed temporarily traffic managed, they can still download over 5,500 music files per day.

Note: We are in the process of rolling out a speed uplift for the Size 'L' broadband tier, that increases customer download speeds from up to 4Mb to up to 10Mb.

As customers are upgraded, the traffic management policy for the upgraded package changes accordingly.

In areas where 10Mb speeds are available, the top 3% of downloaders download at least 800MB of traffic each during the peak period each evening, with the top 3% of uploaders uploading at least 400MB of traffic in the same period.

Any users hitting this amount during peak times (4pm till 9pm) will have their broadband speed temporarily traffic managed – their download speed will be set to 2.5Mb, with their upload speed set to 128Kb. This will last for 5 hours from when the traffic management policy is applied.

Even if a Broadband: Size L user has their speed temporarily traffic managed, they can still download over 14,000 music files per day.
Broadband Size: XL

During peak times, the top 3% of downloaders on the Size: XL package download at least 3GB of traffic each, with the top 3% of uploaders uploading at least 1250MB of traffic each.

Any users hitting this amount during peak times (4pm till 9pm) will have their broadband speed temporarily traffic managed - their download speed will be set to 5Mb, with their upload speed set to 192Kb. This will last for 5 hours from when the traffic management policy is applied.
How do we know this will work?

Well, as we said, we've carried out a trial in which we looked closely at when the heaviest users were affecting the service for everybody else.

We found that this small minority of customers were actually downloading or uploading enough information to significantly affect the service for other customers' broadband service. To put it another way, just 3% of uploaders and downloaders were affecting the service for the other 97% of uploaders and downloaders during peak times (that's between 4pm and 9pm).

What's more, we noticed that when we restricted the speed of the service for this 3% of users who were uploading and/or downloading, we had a positive response from customers (there were less calls into our technical support teams regarding problems with broadband performance). We also noticed that the broadband speed was faster for the vast majority of users.
Will the thresholds change?

The way that our customers use their broadband is changing all the time, so it's possible that in the future we may increase or decrease the thresholds - don't worry though, we'll always let you know on our website if we're going to make any changes, and we don't expect the thresholds to change very often.
How can I tell if I'm nearing the threshold?

There are several tools that you can use to check how much you're downloading or uploading. One particularly useful tool you can download is called DU Meter*.

If you'd like to use a different tool, you might like to www.tucows.com*

---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

In terms of avoiding the traffic management the bit torrent client program Azureus has an encryption thing that can help you avoid it see:

http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Avoid_traffic_shaping

Trybrow
26-05-2008, 12:02
thanks for the tip with Azureus. going to see if this works

CrowmanUK
26-05-2008, 16:09
Encrypting will help if VM are blocking/throttling torrent traffic but it wont make any difference to upload/download limits, so if you upload/download more than the stm allows you'll still get capped.

Mekes82
27-05-2008, 01:06
Hi all, just signed up here.

What the hell has happened to my internet service over the past year? Virgin Media have completely ruined what used to be a great service, Ive taken a couple of low blows from them since they took over but this latest one finally has me ready to accept the hassle and change my phone and internet providers.

Im on the 20mb service and pretty much for the last 4 days I have been getting an average of 5mb 24/7. At first I thought they were maybe working on some technical issues and this is quite funny, maybe optimizing the service so that it might run a little better. Then I check here (I always end up here trying to find out about why the service is bad) and find this news. It really is the end of the line for me, Im jumping ship on this bad internet service. They've spent all of their money advertising for new customers whilst slowly destroying our once great service. Unacceptable.

Ive always been on the cable line, never had a DSL connection so I guess I'll be in the 'other isp' section asking a few questions tomorrow.

*Another angry VM customer*

God I miss Blueyonder.

pip08456
27-05-2008, 01:53
VM have completely lost the plot with the original customer base be it NTL TW etc. However I have had a good result for a month. They've knocked £9.00 off my monthly bill if I stay with them for the next month (Discount permanent!)

Could be because I sent them an email threatening to leave because of STM and they were in breech of the original T's&C's

They have been told and accepted that if the service doesn't improve in the next 30 days I'm off to a new ISP.

If I stay with them (if they improve) I can keep the £9.00 discount.
Does that mean that all the years I've been with my cable company (ninex,c&W ntl,VM) I've been overcharged?


I've NEVER had a problem until VM took over and I've always paid for the premium service.

They are on a 30 day countdown!

---------- Post added at 00:53 ---------- Previous post was at 00:44 ----------

icsys, Virgin do not place any limits on the amount of data that can be downloaded. If you download a file or files non-stop for an entire month your connection will still work and no extra fees will go on your monthly bill. That is what an unlimited connection is.

As for your complaint about STM, it is in the small print and you agreed with it when you signed up.

I seem to remember an actress by the name of Uma Thurman saying someting like "You can download me as many times as you want" but I could be wrong! Having said that she did NOT say it would mean that my B/W would be throttled!

homealone
27-05-2008, 02:14
downloading 2400 KB/s here, no problems - sorry :)

pip08456
27-05-2008, 02:34
downloading 2400 KB/s here, no problems - sorry :)

I can do this at this time of night!

Jelly
27-05-2008, 10:32
I seem to remember an actress by the name of Uma Thurman saying someting like "You can download me as many times as you want" but I could be wrong! Having said that she did NOT say it would mean that my B/W would be throttled!

I seem to remember that VM place no limits on data transfer, only speed. The data is still getting to you and you aren't being charged extra.

Mekes82
27-05-2008, 14:24
But that seriously affects online gaming. I didnt even know anything was up until I tried to play some online fighting games and got extremely poor ping tests for a server that I usually get around 13-15ms ping from. For the last week Ive been averaging around 25-60. I got around the 60 mark a few times, Id only ever get it that bad if I had a whole bunch of torrents running, but everything was clear. Regardless of my ping with this server, lately a few minutes after playing and the whole thing would go rubbish, skipping all over the place and leaving the whole thing unplayable.

Thats when it becomes a little to much for me. Ive been using that gaming service for years on the same server, and Ive never gone higher than 15ms, ever. I can learn to live with a download limit, it was annoying but I got over it. But when I cant do simple things like online gaming and it even has webpages loading much slower than usual, its to much of a step down and nowhere near worth the £35 odd that I pay for it every month.

I really am so disappointed with the service. I spend a lot of time online and when Telewest were in control it was without a doubt the damn best ISP about. Virgin do seem intent on spending X ammount of money on advertising for new customers whilst giving the middle finger to their loyal customer base. Well Im not staying loyal for any longer! Ive havent been on the internet through a phone line since the dial-up days but I guess it is time to give that a try again. BE seem to be a popular choice and a website that I found seems to think that I am 700m real line distance from my exchange, so hopefully I can find the kind of service I want elsewhere. And like I said in my other post I have been lurking here for a while without an account. Do any of you remember that website bulldog hell? This place seems quite similar but for the Virgin service, since Virgin took over. (No offence to the actual website, I think it is great.) Just noting that there are a LOT of unhappy Virgin customers!

Mekes82
27-05-2008, 23:47
5mb at the moment, havent downloaded a thing all day, just browsed a few sites. Tried to do some online gaming and it was awful. Screw this.

Jelly
28-05-2008, 09:09
Online gaming on a 5Mb connection is anything but awful unless you're trying to stream the entire game.

DipsTheOne
28-05-2008, 09:40
Being capped @ 1mb when i should have 4mb and playing cod4 (call of duty 4) is what can i say dam right stupid more lag then the local prison's put together totally un called for I dont download and if i do its only for patch's Im a gamer not a torrent user this is toally unfair why I should suffer becouse some peeps want freebies such has film's porno's games etc, from there torrent sites.

VM get ya ACT together or Im gone

NTL why did you sell the that PRAT Branson pickle HEAD moffo
all i can say is F.U.B.A.R..................................... :mad:

Mick
28-05-2008, 16:12
Seems VM are sending out more letters:-

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers

Sirius
28-05-2008, 17:54
Seems VM are sending out more letters:-

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers

What a complete and utter joke this service is becoming.

STM for daring to use your connection.
Port Throttling (Coming soon to Bittorrent and News)
Phorm Spyware (Selling your data to a dodgy Spyware company)
Threatening letters about your usage
Veiled threats of £130 charges by other companies in the above letter (could that be coming soon ?)

When 50 meg is released what is the bloody point when you will not be able to use the sodding thing for fear of having you browsing sold, your speeds dropped, and then port throttled. I knew VM was in trouble money wise but i never thought they would become bloody AOL in another form.

Please for Gods sake bring back Ntl.

ynwa
28-05-2008, 17:59
This ISP is becoming a joke.

mcgeezer
28-05-2008, 18:34
Port Throttling (Coming soon to Bittorrent and News)


When they start port throttling news on port 80, that's when I'll be downgrading my service to the lowest tier until then I'll continue to schedule downloads during the night.

VM are still better than the competition IMHO.

ceedee
28-05-2008, 18:49
When they start port throttling news on port 80...

You mean ports 119/433, don't you?
:confused:

Sirius
28-05-2008, 18:56
When they start port throttling news on port 80, that's when I'll be downgrading my service to the lowest tier until then I'll continue to schedule downloads during the night.

VM are still better than the competition IMHO.

From what i can figure out its type and port of traffic so if your News is on 119 or any other port they will just throttle that TYPE of traffic no matter what port :(. So i am led to believe.

mcgeezer
28-05-2008, 19:38
No, port 80.

Currently I use port 563 with SSL, but non-ssl sessions work over port 80 also. When Giganews decides to switch on SSL over port 80 then the only thing VM will be able to do is traffic manage by IP address.

Berealwith
28-05-2008, 19:47
I have a few days left with Virgin (now serving 30days to leave) and i am on adsl now been on it for a week (much better in my area for me) and i came across this on the Front page of cable forum

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers

I might have missed someone elses post sorry but i had to post it and make a point ............... Get ready for Phorm.........thats next

Virgin the Titanic........................... Quick run for the lifeboats

Dam they have been oversubscribed.....but you can use em while your asleep between 12 am and 4 am LOL :dunce:

xspeedyx
28-05-2008, 20:19
I am fine thank you

frogstamper
28-05-2008, 20:44
I have a few days left with Virgin (now serving 30days to leave) and i am on adsl now been on it for a week (much better in my area for me) and i came across this on the Front page of cable forum

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers

I might have missed someone elses post sorry but i had to post it and make a point ............... Get ready for Phorm.........thats next

Virgin the Titanic........................... Quick run for the lifeboats

Dam they have been oversubscribed.....but you can use em while your asleep between 12 am and 4 am LOL :dunce:

So what VM are saying in their round about way,as usual, is that they are now going to extend stm times to almost half the day, 10.00-15.00 then the usual 16.00 to 21.00. But of course it's still unlimited! this is what grates me, VMs pure snideness in the way they sell their broadband as "unlimited".

Why oh why are they boosting up the speeds, but then bringing in more and more restrictions to the service, presumably we now have the extra stm to allow VM to sell the 50mb service without stm, initially, I'd like to bet that won't last. I can understand the need for stm if the network is overloaded, I can't say I like it, but that's life, it's just the bs Virgin come out with, a few are ruining it for everybody, the language they use when someone who pays for their unlimited service dares to download a lot. What will it take for the advertising standards agency to come down on VM for misrepresenting their product.

TraxData
28-05-2008, 20:53
http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php

Read it and weep folks.

No more downloading at all without being classed as an "abuser"


To make sure all customers get the most from their connection, we automatically reduce the speed of the heaviest users at peak evening times – between 4pm and 9pm. In extreme cases, we’ll now also reduce the speed between 10am and 3pm – something that’ll have an impact on just 1% of our customers.



Updated traffic management policy

We’re making some changes to our traffic management policy. We think the overall impact will be that fewer people will be affected by the traffic management policy – but it’ll still make sure that use is fair for all our customers. Here’s the detail:
http://www.virginmedia.com/images/traffic-management-table.jpg

jcw00
28-05-2008, 20:55
It states "Last updated: 28 March 2008"

TraxData
28-05-2008, 20:56
It states "Last updated: 28 March 2008"

Ignore that, and read the new STM Rules.

10am-3pm STM applies (3gb limit for 20mbit)
And then 4-9PM as well.

Sirius
28-05-2008, 20:58
http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php

Read it and weep folks.

No more downloading.

Why,

Tell me how its going to stop me downloading when i normally do after midnight. Or are you saying that they will come round and turn it off :)

Do me a favour Think about what you are going to say before you open your mouth

Virgin Media's New policy will NOT stop me downloading will it ?

TraxData
28-05-2008, 20:59
Why,

Tell me how its going to stop me downloading when i normally do after midnight. Or are you saying that they will come round and turn it off :)

Do me a favour Think about what you are going to say before you open your mouth

Virgin Media New policy will NOT stop me downloading will it ?

Overnight STM trials have now started.

It's a waste of time trying to download if your going to get 75% of your connection taken off you :rolleyes:

Sirius
28-05-2008, 21:05
Overnight STM trials have now started.

:


I have come the conclusion you are talking ********. I like you have contacts, My contacts last week :rofl: at your last lot of comments :). There is No trials of overnight STM at this time.

piggy
28-05-2008, 21:06
this will effect next to nobody, anybody who it does effect needs to get a job
9gb from 10am-9pm is plenty.

well done virgin!!

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:06
I have come the conclusion you are talking ********. I like you have contacts, My contacts :rofl: at your last lot of comments :). There is No trials of overnight STM at this time.

Oh yea, just like you argued with me this STM trial wasnt running till alex said it was? or like this stm wasnt going to be rolled out...oops it has.

Overnight STM is being trialled, dont care if you dont believe me, you'll just look stupid when it's rolled out :)

piggy
28-05-2008, 21:08
Overnight STM trials have now started.

It's a waste of time trying to download if your going to get 75% of your connection taken off you :rolleyes:

you spout some rubbish!!

Mick
28-05-2008, 21:09
Can we have less of the arguments please. Thanks. :)

this will effect next to nobody, anybody who it does effect needs to get a job

Some people work nights! :fit:

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:09
you spout some rubbish!!

Oh ok, see, VM enjoy customers like you, they know they can rip you off, take 75% of your connection away from you and you'll still sing praise to them.

Oh well.

Sirius
28-05-2008, 21:10
Oh ok, see, VM enjoy customers like you, they know they can rip you off, take 75% of your connection away from you and you'll still sing praise to them.

Oh well.

Whats your problem. Your not a customer according to your services info. So are you just here to stir up trouble and gloat ?

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:11
Whats your problem. Your not a customer according to your services info.

I have issues with people calling me a liar...especially when i've proved so many times not to be.

xspeedyx
28-05-2008, 21:12
for the price I pay they can stm'd all they like I WILL STILL CONTINUE TO DOWNLOAD AND GET MY STUFF I WANT

Sirius
28-05-2008, 21:14
I have issues with people calling me a liar...especially when i've proved so many times not to be.

But your happy to call others the same ?

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:15
But your happy to call others the same ?

Only when they start it.

If you had pm'd me and had a chat about the new stm i would of been happily to do so and share some of my information with you, but coming on here to mouth me off for no reason is unfair, dont you think?

Sirius
28-05-2008, 21:17
Only when they start it.

If you had pm'd me and had a chat about the new stm i would of been happily to do so and share some of my information with you, but coming on here to mouth me off for no reason is unfair, dont you think?

What annoyed me is the way you gloated about it. I see you have changed what you posted now. Telling people that they can no longer download was incorrect no matter how you worded it.

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:18
What annoyed me is they way you gloated about. I see you have changed what you posted now.

I didnt gloat about it, i said read em and weep.

It's a common saying, i did NOT mean to come across as gloating.

Although one should note i did say this was going to be rolled out nationally and had people calling me a liar then as well.

I just get sick of people doing it when i've been spot on 100% all the time (for the most part) your info is usually spot on as well, but you are wrong about the overnight stm.

Sirius
28-05-2008, 21:22
Although one should note i did say this was going to be rolled out nationally and had people calling me a liar then as well.



I knew that was about to happen as well. However my source would have never given me any more info if he had seen me post about it. ;)


Just made a call to someone in the know, who said he knows nothing about overnight STM running on a trial at the moment. Says it was ruled out of the equation for now. ? He might be wrong but his info is normally accurate and has matched a lot of your posts in the past.

Mick
28-05-2008, 21:23
for the price I pay they can stm'd all they like I WILL STILL CONTINUE TO DOWNLOAD AND GET MY STUFF I WANT

Firstly - Do not use caps please - shouting is extremely bad net ettiquette.

Secondly - you may still get what you want but it will take you longer to obtain it at a reduced speed.

Seems strange to pay for a price for a service only to see it get reduced dramatically in some cases.

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:27
I knew that was about to happen as well. However my source would have never given me any more info if he had seen me post about it. ;)

My sources never get caught :p:

But back to the topic at hand, i find it hard how they can still class this service as unlimited when you have all day STM.

---------- Post added at 20:27 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Firstly - Do not use caps please - shouting is extremely bad net ettiquette.

Secondly - you may still get what you want but it will take you longer to obtain it at a reduced speed.

Seems strange to pay for a price for a service only to see it get reduced dramatically in some cases.

Exactly! the toothless ASA says this is still unlimited though :rolleyes:

piggy
28-05-2008, 21:31
the advertising language is something that needs sorting with all isps the adverts are just plain wrong

AbyssUnderground
28-05-2008, 21:34
I was happy with STM until I saw they are now doing daytime throttling as well. Why don't they just tell everyone plain and simple "we can't give you the speed you pay for" instead of fobbing us all off with lies and excuses as to why they are dropping our speed.

To me, a few GB in the evening is nothing. I do a lot of web design and graphic design. I can easily push a few GB in a few hours with that. I also collect beta software which can come in the GB's every day as well.

They say they're not cutting down on costs, but thats obviously a lie when they are cutting our speed and telling us its because we use too much. Who are they to judge if I'm using too much? They don't know my browsing habbits. They don't know what I need to use my connection for. Who are they to say what I can and can't download and at what times?

Gary L
28-05-2008, 21:36
On that page they have clearly said that there are limits, and quite clearly stated what those limits are. before you could download X amount, now you can only download X amount. on another page they are saying that they are still UNLIMITED.

It is ridiculous to be putting the blame on the customers. now they have officialy opened the gates.
Think of how many people receiving this letter and how it is the first thing they've ever heard of the thing called STM.

punky
28-05-2008, 21:36
10am - 4pm on a weekday is now peak?

So after stopping users from downloading after 4pm (i.e. when they actually want to), and forcing them to download during the day, now that people are doing it, VM are now calling 10am-4pm as peak time. By the end of the year off-peak will be down to 3:30am - 4:00am

Mick
28-05-2008, 21:39
the advertising language is something that needs sorting with all isps the adverts are just plain wrong

That is exactly what needs to be done - I fully take on board VM have to protect their network for stability.

What I am taking exception to is that Virgin Media are advertising it as a No limiting service. So customers who see this will assume this is exactly what they can do.

Yeah downloads can continue, but a reduced speed. So regardless of all the semantics in this, Virgin Media are applying download limits.

Maggy
28-05-2008, 21:40
Please for Gods sake bring back Ntl.


I never thought I'd read that in a CF thread....:D

TraxData
28-05-2008, 21:45
I knew that was about to happen as well. However my source would have never given me any more info if he had seen me post about it. ;)


Just made a call to someone in the know, who said he knows nothing about overnight STM running on a trial at the moment. Says it was ruled out of the equation for now. ? He might be wrong but his info is normally accurate and has matched a lot of your posts in the past.

The trials were made public (to certain staff) today after a meeting, only a small amount of people know about it right now.

Pm me for more info.

Gary L
28-05-2008, 21:56
That is exactly what needs to be done - I fully take on board VM have to protect their network for stability.

They can protect it by stop selling the product 100 times over.

What I am taking exception to is that Virgin Media are advertising it as a No limiting service. So customers who see this will assume this is exactly what they can do.

And they know that is what a customer will assume. they want him or her to assume. if you were to tell the top man this is what's happening, he'll say tough we can get away with it.

peanut
28-05-2008, 22:01
I think they should know how much bandwidth you use and how long per month you've been throttled then recalculate the bill accordingly.

I hope this gets all the negative feedback going and hope some rules change. (Though I seriously doubt it).

I think I might have to vote with my feet on this one. :(

indie1982
28-05-2008, 23:00
FFS, I've been STMd after less than 700MB and out of hours!

I'm in TS5, just had the upgrade to 10Mb and I've been out all day. Came in from work downloaded 10.5.3 for OS X (420MB) at about 5PM, almost hit 1000KB/s for most of the download. Then I started on the iPhone SDK (1200MB) at about 9:15PM.

After 300MB of the iPhone SDK I can't get any faster than 300KB/s. I've opened some other downloads from ubuntu.virginmedia.com and I get no faster than 300KB/s :(

Gary L
28-05-2008, 23:08
There has been a lot of reports of people being STMd either out of hours or well below the allowed limit. support say they are reporting it but nothing has come back from them. what is to stop VM from applying reduced speeds to anyone no matter how much they download or what ever time of day just to keep things from grinding to a halt and to enable them to add new customers?

Absolutely nothing.

Zain
28-05-2008, 23:26
whats the bloody use of the new STM management policy...the old one (4-9pm) which is still currently going on btw, is just as bad.

slowcoach
29-05-2008, 00:16
The next step will be to turn off Broadband at midnight with the excuse that only 3% of users ever use it after midnight anyway so it won’t impact on most users, and you can still download 15,000 mp3’s each day.
Everywhere Branson goes the pox is sure to follow soon after.

Gary L
29-05-2008, 00:21
The only reason they use mp3s as an example is (1) they think you're an idiot, and (2) it amounts to thousands. where do you get thousands of legal mp3s from and how much would it cost you?
This isn't Branson's doing, it's NTL's.

stenelly
29-05-2008, 00:29
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers
i think virgin are on a sticky wickett if they try to dictate at what times of the day and how mutch you can d/load by the way as annyone noticed how quick they are to reduce your connection and how long after the time its supposed to be back to full speed it takes to come back to a reasnable speed

slowcoach
29-05-2008, 00:30
This isn't Branson's doing, it's NTL's.
This is typical Branson, I have been stitched up with him before, why do you think he is always smiling, it's what he does for his kicks.

The next phase will be to gradually reduce the amount you can download before STM cuts in, I await Traxdata's next announcement.

Gary L
29-05-2008, 00:37
I always tell myself the grinning is from something stuck up his bum.

stenelly
29-05-2008, 00:50
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers
i think virgin are on a sticky wickett if they try to dictate at what times of the day and how mutch you can d/load by the way as annyone noticed how quick they are to reduce your connection and how long after the time its supposed to be back to full speed it takes to come back to a reasnable speed

Wed, 28 May 2008 22:39:07 UTC

Test 1: 1024K took 13828 ms = 74.1 KB/sec, approx 611 Kbps, 0.6 Mbps
Test 2: 1024K took 14750 ms = 69.4 KB/sec, approx 572 Kbps, 0.56 Mbps
Test 3: 1024K took 14766 ms = 69.3 KB/sec, approx 571 Kbps, 0.56 Mbps
Test 4: 2048K took 40500 ms = 50.6 KB/sec, approx 417 Kbps, 0.41 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 543 Kbps, 0.53 :shocked:Mbps
by the way im suposed to be on 4 meg

---------- Post added at 23:50 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

whats the bloody use of the new STM management policy...the old one (4-9pm) which is still currently going on btw, is just as bad.

its now 10 am till 3 pm as well next it will be 9 pm till 10 am

Ben B
29-05-2008, 00:52
its now 10 am till 3 pm as well

What?! O2 broadband is looking even more promising now.....

stenelly
29-05-2008, 01:00
What?! O2 broadband is looking even more promising now.....
its now 10 am till 3 pm as well
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers
check the link

Maggy
29-05-2008, 01:15
This is typical Branson, I have been stitched up with him before, why do you think he is always smiling, it's what he does for his kicks.

The next phase will be to gradually reduce the amount you can download before STM cuts in, I await Traxdata's next announcement.

Branson does not OWN virgin Media.He has merely allowed the Virgin trade mark to be used in return for financial gain.

The failures of VM are down to those who were so hopeless at running NTL before the merger with telewest.

But of course it's much easier to blame the hirsute one than the real villains.

frogstamper
29-05-2008, 03:15
Branson does not OWN virgin Media.He has merely allowed the Virgin trade mark to be used in return for financial gain.

The failures of VM are down to those who were so hopeless at running NTL before the merger with telewest.

But of course it's much easier to blame the hirsute one than the real villains.

Agreed coggy, out of everyone I imagine Richard Branson is pretty peeved with the almost daily drip, drip of bad news coming out of VM. He must have asked himself why he ever got involved with this bunch of amateurs, all they have managed is to bring the Virgin brand down, down and down. In my opinion the first half decent offer he receives you won't see him for dust.

|Kippa|
29-05-2008, 03:37
I was on the trial STM being 10am to 3pm and 4pm to 9pm before they rolled it out nationally. I have had to put up with this for over 2 to 3 months now. I get the feeling they will push the STM times more and more, just to see what they can get away with.

AbyssUnderground
29-05-2008, 10:19
What?! O2 broadband is looking even more promising now.....

Hell... Even Tiscali is looking better than this crap! (And I never thought I'd hear myself say that either!)

PeteTheMusicGuy
29-05-2008, 10:29
I'm really getting fed up with VM now. What a joke :mad:. Whats the point of BB if I cant use it

Jelly
29-05-2008, 10:34
I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that STM can only affect customers once every 24 Hours. Could I just download 2GB in the morning when I'm at school and then be STM-free for the rest of the day, or will VM change the rules?

Zain
29-05-2008, 10:46
^ oh if its like that then im kind off ok with it...

Q. Can you trigger STM more than once over a 24 hour period?
A. Under the existing rules, No.

Time to kill off morning STM here...then keep 4-9pm free :)

Robertus
29-05-2008, 10:53
It can effect you more than once.

Zain
29-05-2008, 10:55
oh damn.

m1th
29-05-2008, 11:19
I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that STM can only affect customers once every 24 Hours. Could I just download 2GB in the morning when I'm at school and then be STM-free for the rest of the day, or will VM change the rules?


can someone confirm that is indeed true? Otherwise I'd be one ****ed off customer...

http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php

Ben B
29-05-2008, 11:34
its now 10 am till 3 pm as well
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/402/virgin-media-to-start-mailing-letters-to-high-broadband-usage-customers
check the link

oh yeh just saw that now, have not been on cf for a while, but don't know why i haven't....:shrug:

nomadking
29-05-2008, 11:35
What will happen if you're still affected by the daytime STM at 5pm and will then be affected by the evening STM at the same time!

Ben B
29-05-2008, 11:39
What will happen if you're still affected by the daytime STM at 5pm and will then be affected by the evening STM at the same time!

Ridiculous i know! So much for 'unlimited' broadband, well this is a limit isn't it, one that limits how much you can download in a certain space of time

veeemmm
29-05-2008, 11:51
"In extreme cases ...... that'll have an impact on just 1% of our customers".

That sounds like a huge number of people. What is the number in less "extreme cases", 10%, 25%, 50% ??????

I am a very light user and have never been concerned by any of this but if a letter like that arrived on my doorstep, I would be disgusted and would have a heck of a lot more to say about it.

I don't think much of the condescending language VM seem to use these days either.

slowcoach
29-05-2008, 11:52
Branson does not OWN virgin Media.He has merely allowed the Virgin trade mark to be used in return for financial gain.

The failures of VM are down to those who were so hopeless at running NTL before the merger with telewest.

But of course it's much easier to blame the hirsute one than the real villains.
I know that Branson does not own VM, but he IS a major shareholder.
The ntl board thought his brand would be the answer to all their problems so we can assume that they value, and take heed of, his input at meetings.

nomadking
29-05-2008, 11:58
I'm on 'M' service(2Mb) at the moment, if I upgrade to 'L' and end up on 10Mb, even when affected by STM I can still download at 2.5Mb which is a slightly bigger impact than 2Mb non STM affected service. So if 2Mb is a problem, why isn't a minimum of 2.5Mb also a problem, never mind if I upgraded to 'XL' with a minimum of 5Mb.

slowcoach
29-05-2008, 12:05
I was on the trial STM being 10am to 3pm and 4pm to 9pm before they rolled it out nationally. I have had to put up with this for over 2 to 3 months now. I get the feeling they will push the STM times more and more, just to see what they can get away with.
Exactly.
They know that they can’t sell 5Mb/s for £37 but by gradually reducing the STM download quota over time they will in effect be doing just that, except for a few hours a day when you will be tucked up in bed.

xspeedyx
29-05-2008, 12:18
All this STM thing makes be believe VM 50Mb will carry stm and it will be something like 4Gb then you capped to 5.5Mb

nomadking
29-05-2008, 12:21
All this so they can have a headline of 50Mb speed without providing that actual level of service.

disgruntled
29-05-2008, 13:54
So now I know why I've been getting pathetic speeds. I'm clearly not happy about this.

I signed up with VM just 2 months ago for the 4mb BB Service and telephone line rental. Their sales pitch was a free upgrade to 10mb, why tell me that if I can't freely use it?, I guess the answer to that is blatantly obvious.

As an ex-Telewest customer just over 18 months ago, I was unable to migrate my services to my new home, I was told they were already over-capacity in this area yet within months I started getting leaflets and letters in my mail informing I could now have VM services but too late, as I was already under BT contract. What had changed?, obviously nothing, they've simply oversold their service and now can't cope with demand.

The thing that grates me most, like most people here, is their "unlimited" spiel. With BT, I was restricted to 40gb a month, not a huge amount but at least I knew for sure where I stood. It's the same with most other companies, you have your limits and they're clear before you sign. VM clearly fail here and as such, their actions are nothing short of scandalous.

To make matters worse for me, yesterday when I tried to end my contract for failure to install my telephone line after 6 weeks, I happened to mention about slow internet speeds. Their immediate reply was "did you call technical support"?, alas, no mention I might have had my speed capped for exceeding download limits. If it wasn't for reading this forum, I would still have no idea about my speed reduction.

Just one final question. If the peak hour is 4-9pm, why am I being punished until 1-2am?

Zain
29-05-2008, 14:03
say if you break the limit at 20:50 right your 5 hours of STM starts then....so you gotta wait till 01:50 till your uncapped. (5 hours)

Gary L
29-05-2008, 14:09
say if you break the limit at 20:50 right your 5 hours of STM starts then....so you gotta wait till 01:50 till your uncapped. (5 hours)

Last I heard there is no STM after 9:00pm. it gets turned off completely.
So in your example he should get STMd for 10 minutes.

ceedee
29-05-2008, 14:13
Last I heard there is no STM after 9:00pm. it gets turned off completely.
So in your example he should get STMd for 10 minutes.

Unfortunately you heard incorrectly.
Alex Brown has previously stated that he's asked Cisco to include the facility to vary the time that the STM restrictions finish into their firmware but that he's been given no indication when that might happen.

disgruntled
29-05-2008, 14:25
My point is, 4-9pm is supposed to be peak hours traffic flow, why am I being punished whilst traffic isn't deemed to be so high?

Gary L
29-05-2008, 14:27
So to make it clear they should say that STM is operational during the hours of 10am to 1am.

Jelly
29-05-2008, 14:28
My point is, 4-9pm is supposed to be peak hours traffic flow, why am I being punished whilst traffic isn't deemed to be so high?
If you hit the limit at, for example, 7PM, the traffic management will continue to affect you for 5 hours, stopping at 12PM.

Gary L
29-05-2008, 14:32
So to make it clear they should say that STM is operational during the hours of 10am to 1am.
People could be under the impression that the cut off times is when you get full speed back, but you don't as the hours drift into the next time period.

Made it on to The Register already.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/29/virgin_media_daytime_restrictions/

TraxData
29-05-2008, 16:01
I see alex is doing his "no i didnt say that, dodge, run and then not reply anymore" thing again :)

As i'm sure you'll notice by replies on the ngs, he has been caught out by the fact he said the new trials were not going to be rolled out, then they sneakily roll it out, where have i seen that happen before ;)

Someone asked about overnight STM, as per usual, alex went silent with one word replies...

LostintheNW
29-05-2008, 16:07
Just saw the letter they are meant to be sending out...makes no difference to me as I am traffic managed no matter what time of the day, and according to everyone I have spoken to at Virgin they have stated I can only download 120meg before I am capped. All I sodding do on my 20meg connection (have the VIP package so have this speed) is surf the web, e-mail, play my xbox and download demos and updates for games. I have been told this makes me an excessively heavy user as I have the cheek to download a 400 meg game demo or actually play games online.

Not long to go before I move into my new place, where VM don't actually service :-D

disgruntled
29-05-2008, 16:38
If you hit the limit at, for example, 7PM, the traffic management will continue to affect you for 5 hours, stopping at 12PM.

I understand fully the theory of your reply but that's not exactly what I'm asking.

Using your example of 7pm and being capped until midnight, I'm being punished for 3 hours past the peak hours of 4-9pm. Being punished 3 hours beyond that timeframe doesn't help traffic flow one iota between 4 and 9pm.

I could almost accept being capped until 9pm if forewarned in the correct manner, but this extra 3 hours seems excessive. Hope you understand my query now.

Trybrow
29-05-2008, 17:16
The joke is of course that i havnt noticed any speed decrease except for when iv been traffic managed. Weird. So how are they working out that speeds are slow? Traffic management has been in place for over a year. wouldnt it in fact be the traffic management itself that is causing any congestion by diverting traffic to other times?

slowcoach
29-05-2008, 22:21
All this STM thing makes be believe VM 50Mb will carry stm and it will be something like 4Gb then you capped to 5.5Mb
Unless 50mb is a free upgrade then it is dead in the water now.

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------


Someone asked about overnight STM, as per usual, alex went silent with one word replies...
Nothing more certain.

Softly Softly Catchee Monkey. :monkey:

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 00:28
how will people put up with this i mean look at the trouble it caused over the 4pm - 9pm time frame
now they’ve done it even worse no-one see’s to see the whole problem look at it this way

you hit your 6GB limit say within the 10AM time frame that’s 5 hrs throttled.

which then takes you to 3pm, then your un-throttled back to full speed up-to 4pm

from 4pm - 9pm if you hit your 3gb limit within the 4PM mark that takes you to 9pm,
now don’t forget you can trigger the STM within 1 min within 10am - 3pm /4pm - 9pm

so say you hit your trigger at 2:59pm, thats 8pm the first throttle will come off.
but you’ve already passed over into the 4pm -9pm throttle so that 8pm it removes.
who’s saying its not going to get mixed with the later STM so add 5 hours onto
9pm 1am - 10am your basically ever going to get 20mb.

probably got my maths all screwed up but you get the idea

what I’m trying to get at is, your allocated 3gb in peak time of full speed no STM right.
if you hit the STM at 2:59PM thats 5 hours STM’d right there basically NULLING out the
legitimate time you supposed to get 3GB allowance and no STM so you’ve basically got STM’d
all the way from Morning, Though till Noon, then Automatically hit Evening STM’

You can only use the connection un-throttled from 1am - 10am for now.

Pretty sneaky way of making sure within the 4pm - 9pm your STM’d regardless
of even touching the 3GB threshold, and how they getting away with this? easy really.

Regardless of how many people read this it could read Virgin stops users from ever connecting
but steals their money every month, and you know what? and i mean this …

People would continue to be the sheep and continue to follow without doing a damn thing about it.
you would all keep paying your £37 pounds to a company who’s now saying their fast BB is only to
be used between the hours of 1am - 10am… and where is the cost cutting? we don’t have any.

So the next Problem now is everyone will start downloading from 12am - 10am the network will
then get so congested they will start with STM from the 1am - 10am.

Virgin just cannot seem to understand people want to actually use their connections for what it
was originally created for, and now they are doing just that the ISPS were paying our money too
really doesn’t want to offer the service their offering and that were all paying for?

They don’t seem to get or understand swapping the times around all users will do is swap with them.
we started with .. 4pm -12pm, then dropped it to 4pm - 9pm what did users do?

they set their downloading from 1am - 4pm, now we have restrictions 10am - 3pm.
so users are going to set their downloads from 12am - 10am, so now your going to have
the entire country hammering the hell out of the connection from 12am - 10am so the speed
is going to be worse than ever during off peak time, so we’ve now created off peak time on peak.
and on peak time off peak,

Virgin people want to download people want to use their broadband for what it’s designed for.
and their using what they paid for, you advertised this is what it is for and when were doing just that
your hitting us with limits.

instead of shifting people around which is doing nothing only time shifting people why don’t you
just use the money were paying you to actually “Upgrade” the networks to cope?

Sherlock614
30-05-2008, 00:41
Blimey i'm glad i had to leave VM when i did.

I get max 7mb on Be but i don't have to look at the clock before starting a download.

If i was still paying for 20mb i wouldn't be happy with this.

Gary L
30-05-2008, 00:42
Let us sit down and think.
It takes less than 1% of VM's customers to use their connection to bring the whole network to a crawl for the other 99%

:D

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 00:55
I'm laughing so much at that 1% thing, omg talk about blatant lies and deception.
1% of customers , so because of 1% of customers the whole country has to suffer?

i think they missed two zero's off the end since the BBC news on TV stated about the
3 strikes and your out policy that there is over 5.5 million people daily committing copyright.

5.5 million + all the rest they don't want to tell you about is more than 1% or 5%

So we have let me get this right.

10am - 3pm Restriction,
4pm 9pm + 5 hours Restriction.
Soon to have Overnight STM very soon like Trax said yes it's coming
so that's going to be from 1am - 5am Restriction

Then were going to have the Traffic Cops, 3 Strikes and your out,
then were going to have phrom watching us

Then Protocol throttling bittorrent/news servers going to be cut back.

and they still advertise this as "no restrictions and Unlimited"
I'd love to see their definition of "unlimited or restrictions lol

all this for the nice cheap price of £37 pounds a month which no doubt we will
be getting a price rise very soon on all tiers that's the next nail in the coffin.

Has virgin been taken over by them gremlins on the BT advert or what?

Advert i'm talking about for the people who's not seen it yet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87z6O8dek2k&feature=related

Trybrow
30-05-2008, 01:05
Let us sit down and think.
It takes less than 1% of VM's customers to use their connection to bring the whole network to a crawl for the other 99%

:D

yeah love that. what does that say about the capacity of their network. that basically proves they are trying to overload the UBRs or whatever theyr called. So if some of that 1% would be 2mb customers then why are the 20 mb customers who are 10 times that amount getting the oppertunity to download nearly four times more data during so called traffic management. since wouldnt they actually be the ones who are congesting the network?

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 01:09
more to the point trybrow if 2mb gets cut to 1mb, and 4mb to 2mb, and 10mb to 4mb.
why is 20mbit being cut to 5mb, it's stripey on the keyboard i'm telling ya he's just pushing
what ever keys he feels at the time, i swear when i watch that advert it should have
the Virgin brand writen all over it.

homealone
30-05-2008, 01:22
forget the numbers, look at the times, if you want to up or download, fit it in when the network allows it - if people stopped trying to score points for being capped during peak times & tried actually using the bandwidth when it is available, they might have more luck ;)

CrowmanUK
30-05-2008, 01:33
The bandwidth should be available all the time, thats what you pay for, the convenience of using your connection when you want it, i'm not saying that you should be downloading 24/7 but if you get in from work, fire up your latest game and see you need a patch and start downloading it while watching some stuff on youtube why should you get managed? It makes no sense, you could download sod all in the day or night but if you want bandwidth at a time to suit you then you'll get penalised for it, Mr car boot whose connection is burning all day and night gets penalised the same as mr once a fortnight who downloads a patch and watches a few vids which takes him over the limit. where is the justice in that? And god help you if you're on adsl cos you'll get 8k/sec for a week during peak times, maybe they should inflict that on the 1% of heavy downloaders rather than imposing the limits that are in place now, that way the heavy users will get hit and not the occasional over the limit downloader.

Keane
30-05-2008, 01:36
I'm no longer calling them Virgin, because a company that likes to randomly screw customers doesn't deserve it.

I get back from vacation looking forward to 10mb, and on my first day home i'm capped unknowingly. It seems my cap just lifted, so it makes me wonder how long it will take for me to get capped even thought it's night.

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 01:46
here's the lies behind it all.

it's nearly 1am right now lets just say everyone who's on here started their downloads
about 12am, and qued them up before going to bed, there is alot more people right now
who's using their connections maxing them out getting as much stuff as fast as they can
before the STM limit at 10am, look at your DL/UL speed now it's great smooth fast.

come morning, back to slow as a turtle when everyones at work or school.

so everyone in the country lets say for theory sets their downloads via the night.
that is a HUGE load and surge on virgin networks as normally people would download
in stages, some morning, evening noon, night, mid morning, it would be staggard.

right now everyone's hammering it all at the same time where's the traffic jam?
it doesn't exist there is no jam right now if people are downloading in the offpeak
with their torrents or download managers it should be slow to a crawl but its not.

it's all lies lies and more bollox.

homealone
30-05-2008, 01:57
The bandwidth should be available all the time, thats what you pay for, the convenience of using your connection when you want it, i'm not saying that you should be downloading 24/7 but if you get in from work, fire up your latest game and see you need a patch and start downloading it while watching some stuff on youtube why should you get managed? It makes no sense, you could download sod all in the day or night but if you want bandwidth at a time to suit you then you'll get penalised for it, Mr car boot whose connection is burning all day and night gets penalised the same as mr once a fortnight who downloads a patch and watches a few vids which takes him over the limit. where is the justice in that? And god help you if you're on adsl cos you'll get 8k/sec for a week during peak times, maybe they should inflict that on the 1% of heavy downloaders rather than imposing the limits that are in place now, that way the heavy users will get hit and not the occasional over the limit downloader.

if you remain within the limits in peak time & do your downloads outside that, I cannot see how anyone is seriously inconvenienced - the comments regarding illegal modems are moot, but not strictly relevant to the majority of subscribers, the 'peak' times when STM occurs for the rest of us are published and can be avoided -if you are serious about uploading/downloading files, then do it outside the STM window - you have until 10 am, just now, for example, what do you want you cannot download in 9 hours at 9 Gig an hour???

---------- Post added at 00:57 ---------- Previous post was at 00:49 ----------

here's the lies behind it all.

it's nearly 1am right now lets just say everyone who's on here started their downloads
about 12am, and qued them up before going to bed, there is alot more people right now
who's using their connections maxing them out getting as much stuff as fast as they can
before the STM limit at 10am, look at your DL/UL speed now it's great smooth fast.

come morning, back to slow as a turtle when everyones at work or school.

so everyone in the country lets say for theory sets their downloads via the night.
that is a HUGE load and surge on virgin networks as normally people would download
in stages, some morning, evening noon, night, mid morning, it would be staggard.

right now everyone's hammering it all at the same time where's the traffic jam?
it doesn't exist there is no jam right now if people are downloading in the offpeak
with their torrents or download managers it should be slow to a crawl but its not.

it's all lies lies and more bollox.

please post your links to the bandwidth utilisation data on the network, just now, so we can decide if you are commenting on actual data, or just posting opinions as facts ;)

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 02:05
Sorry no data no facts just common sense if people can't download in the restricted times
then the humans with brains will quickly change download habits to none restricting times.

were human were not animals, but then again an animal if it watching other animals being
shot because it crossed over a certain part of the land at the certain time of the day.
every day then see's animals not being shot while doing it in the dark

that animal would eventually have enough brains to cross that line at night time

again Common Sense says so :)

TraxData
30-05-2008, 02:07
just now, for example, what do you want you cannot download in 9 hours at 9 Gig an hour???

You realise the whole point of having a faster connection is to download files faster, right? you know, to get the download over and done with so you can carry on with whatever your doing, right?

homealone
30-05-2008, 02:12
You realise the whole point of having a faster connection is to download files faster, right? you know, to get the download over and done with so you can carry on with whatever your doing, right?

so you are doing it, now, right, and are therefore happy, now, right - don't patronise. please, just do it ;)

TraxData
30-05-2008, 02:15
so you are doing it, now, right, and are therefore happy, right - don't patronise. please, just do it ;)

Patronise, moi? ;)

I download when i want, of course im not with VM so i dont get 75% of my connection taken away from me for it :p:

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 02:19
just awaiting the new midnight early morning STM's to role in it wont be long now.
what i like to know is why isn't watchdog or the TV media/newspapers picking this up?

no-one seems interested and it's one of the biggest scams i've ever seen in a long time.

pip08456
30-05-2008, 02:22
so you are doing it, now, right, and are therefore happy, now, right - don't patronise. please, just do it ;)

So I take it you are quite happy to have limits on your XL package which you pay more for even though its been sold to you as UNLIMITED!

homealone
30-05-2008, 02:35
So I take it you are quite happy to have limits on your XL package which you pay more for even though its been sold to you as UNLIMITED!

What limits - there are no limits, just now, fill your boots & download what you want, STM does not apply at this time, assuming you are not already in a 5 hour managed scenario from before 2100 - in which case 'more fool you' - otherwise you have 'unlimited' bandwidth according to your paid for speed until 10.00 am right now - about 8 & a half hours left - go for it :D

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 02:36
pippincp some people would defend and be happy if virgin burst through their doors.
ripped out the cable modem took it with them and slapped them with a removal bill.
then forced to sign a new contract saying they must never use virgin again ever.
but you still need to pay us 37 pounds a month every months for 24 months.

they'd take a good look at it say hmm, not bad price i can put up with that.
that's the whole impression i get of people here, who's actually paying customers.

maybe it's just me but when i decide i want something i pay for it, and the reason
i pay for it is that i originally wanted it in the first place so once I've paid for it
and I'm not getting it, should i therefore still be happy?

just because a company has screwed up by over subscribing this is my fault how?
why should i ever need to be sympathetic to any company because they've made a cock up?

I'm a customer it's my role to be provided with what I'm paying them for.
not my role to pat them on the back and say there, there, i understand totally
and while i understand totally, slap some more restrictions on me and if you want
increase my bill to cover the issue,.

They've been greedy trying to get more and more customers on board it's their mess.
why should i continue to have to pay more money for a less service than originally
just because there to greedy to use the money to upgrade the capacity or to allow
full capacity of the network to their users and stop holding it back.

be just as well going to the nearest grid and fluttering it right down there

And to the poster above "more fool you", omg ... lmao yes more fool him for using what he paid for bad boy!! how dare he!
i'm right now re-downloading Half Life 2 / Counter Strike Source it's just over 11GB in size after i re-installed my OS.

if i tried to do that anytime of the day which is when i wanted to play i would of been here till next tuesday.
what about the millions of others who need bandwidth to install games from the likes of Direct2drive or Steam?

Once again even the isp's still don't have a clue about the gamers or the people who love to test demo's
what makes me laugh is when you go onto tech support for an official speed check they even tell you to DL their Game Demo's!!
but when you come to downloading your own demo's/Steam/D2D ... your Restricted.

Yea i've gone over my limit with legit traffic ... how dare i? more fool me too? sorry did i ask for this?

homealone
30-05-2008, 02:41
Patronise, moi? ;)

I download when i want, of course im not with VM so i dont get 75% of my connection taken away from me for it :p:

So you have no input other than your opinion

All my posts are based on what I actually get from VM, not opinion, conjecture, or rumour - not to dismiss your opinion, but the evidence you bring to the debate has to take that into account - imo ;)

GraphiX2004
30-05-2008, 02:45
i should be in bed right now at nearly 2am in a morning but i can't as i have to
nurse all my downloads right now and make sure they are done for tomorrow.

how many others are going to have to change their whole social life times around.
it's going to be causing deaths soon, people up all night to do something then
drive to work in the morning no sleep and totally knackered,

fall to sleep at the wheel, or work with machinary and get someone hurt real good.
i can see it now, cannot wait for the real media to grow a pair and report this story.

homealone
30-05-2008, 02:46
And to the poster above "more fool you", omg ... lmao yes more fool him for using what he paid for bad boy!!

I meant more fool you for not being able to 'play the game' in order to get what you want, rather than score points, it is possible, but the motives may be different? :)

TraxData
30-05-2008, 02:47
So you have no input other than your opinion

All my posts are based on what I actually get from VM, not opinion, conjecture, or rumour - not to dismiss your opinion, but the evidence you bring to the debate has to take that into account - imo ;)

I used to be with VM though and the STM during 4-9pm was more than a slight annoyance.

Glad i got rid of them as i knew this was going to be rolled out nationally.

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said (on another forum) VM are turning into another tiscali, only more expensive.

pip08456
30-05-2008, 02:50
What limits - there are no limits, just now, fill your boots & download what you want, STM does not apply at this time, assuming you are not already in a 5 hour managed scenario from before 2100 - in which case 'more fool you' - otherwise you have 'unlimited' bandwidth according to your paid for speed until 10.00 am right now - about 8 & a half hours left - go for it :D

Who's on about "at this time?" I am on about the UNLIMITED 20mbps package I've been paying for from the moment it was rolled out in the Manchester area.
(I had NO problems when it was NTL). I and everyone else in this area is LIMITED to 750MBs between 4.00pm and 12.00am. Considering I work 6.00am - 6.00pm this only gives me less than 6hrs full bandwidth for downloading if I don't turn my PC off when I go to bed. To put it in a nutshell I can download ONE CD when I get home and if I wish to download anything else my PC HAS to be on 24 hrs. That doesn't include the slow browsing in the time I have left when the STM kicks in.

homealone
30-05-2008, 02:58
i should be in bed right now at nearly 2am in a morning but i can't as i have to
nurse all my downloads right now and make sure they are done for tomorrow.

how many others are going to have to change their whole social life times around.
it's going to be causing deaths soon, people up all night to do something then
drive to work in the morning no sleep and totally knackered,

fall to sleep at the wheel, or work with machinary and get someone hurt real good.
i can see it now, cannot wait for the real media to grow a pair and report this story.

'nurse' downloads, 'cause deaths' - my personal opinion is that your issues transcend the thread, I'm ceasing to reply to such ridiculous concepts, if you cannot set your downloads to 'safely' execute at this time of night, you have problems that, imo, Virgin Media are never going to be able to help you with.....

---------- Post added at 01:56 ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 ----------

Who's on about "at this time?" I am on about the UNLIMITED 20mbps package I've been paying for from the moment it was rolled out in the Manchester area.
(I had NO problems when it was NTL). I and everyone else in this area is LIMITED to 750MBs between 4.00pm and 12.00am. Considering I work 6.00am - 6.00pm this only gives me less than 6hrs full bandwidth for downloading if I don't turn my PC off when I go to bed. To put it in a nutshell I can download ONE CD when I get home and if I wish to download anything else my PC HAS to be on 24 hrs. That doesn't include the slow browsing in the time I have left when the STM kicks in.

So you cannot download anything, now ?

---------- Post added at 01:58 ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 ----------

I used to be with VM though and the STM during 4-9pm was more than a slight annoyance.

Glad i got rid of them as i knew this was going to be rolled out nationally.

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier when they said (on another forum) VM are turning into another tiscali, only more expensive.

In other words you have nothing to add to the debate ?

TraxData
30-05-2008, 03:10
In other words you have nothing to add to the debate ?

The fact STM does not affect you, as you say, means you have nothing more to add to the debate either ;).

It's not your business what other people do with their connections, you cant complain because VM has sold it as unlimited and people are actually using it.

Again, the whole point of a high speed connection is so you can download files faster, not start the download, have a 20mbit speed burst for 20 mins then down to 5mbit taking twice as long to get the file downloaded.

All because your happy to sit here and be ripped off it does not mean others are.

You seem to think anyone who downloads is an abuser? what about households with more than 1 pc? people who have kids? i can easily use that STM limit up within an hour with iplayer/youtube/game/updates/patches.

You think its fair to class them as abusers because they sometimes have to download large files?

You do realise STM is NOT in place to stop heavy downloaders, right?

It's there so they can keep on signing more people up while not having to give the customers what they are actually paying for.

I think you need to remember normal people have lifes, jobs and other things to do...and are only online for a few hours today, if they want to download something in those few hours at the speed they are paying for ,they should be allowed.

pip08456
30-05-2008, 03:19
@homealone (I wonder why).

I'm on tonight because I'm on day off tomorrow, there's nothing I wish to download now. There may be nothing till Monday when I'm working and don't see it until I get home, then it'll be difficult for me due to STM.

Both Graphix and Trax Data have entered more constructive points to this debate than your "one track mind" replies.

I can see questions need to be put concisely to you so I will.

Are you happy paying for an UNLIMITED PREMIUM SERVICE but not getting the same???

frogstamper
30-05-2008, 03:25
@homealone (I wonder why).

I'm on tonight because I'm on day off tomorrow, there's nothing I wish to download now. There may be nothing till Monday when I'm working and don't see it until I get home, then it'll be difficult for me due to STM.

Both Graphix and Trax Data have entered more constructive points to this debate than your "one track mind" replies.

I can see questions need to be put concisely to you so I will.

Are you happy paying for an UNLIMITED PREMIUM SERVICE but not getting the same???

There is no need to be insulting to homealone, just because he has a different viewpoint to yours, his comments are as constructive and valid as the next mans. You may not agree with him but you do need to insult him.:td:

bigsanta11
30-05-2008, 03:26
You realise the whole point of having a faster connection is to download files faster, right? you know, to get the download over and done with so you can carry on with whatever your doing, right?


I know what the stars on their latest advert say,but Vm towers never thought customers would actually go ahead and do as their advert "stated" you could !:nono:



Right,the latest letter that i recieved today from Vm towers,about their new methods for enhancing the customers web experience(stm),has a part "But you can still download loads"(Vm towers bold)"massive amounts" ,Vm towers further states on the back of the page the massive amounts you are "allowed".

The part that stands out for me,and it isn't the massive amounts,but the fact that in the table displayed ,the amount is now clearly stating as fact limits have now been set in place ,but then further down the page they state once again that "you still have unlimited downloads",completely contradicting what Vm towers table above has shown and said.

This table also says how much you can download in a "24 hour period"(for gods sake,we can't use it through the day but instead they actually want us to now do it at some ungodly hour ) ,instead of having the table reflect when the vast majority of users use their BB service ,as in a 12 hour "daily" period,and thus this table would then show people what their 50 mb super fast ,unlimited ,uncapped isp was really able to provide us,their paying customers with.

Finally ,we are classed as one of those 1% of awful people that can bring the Vm towers network to a crawl ,one who dares to use their super fast unlimited BB connection for more than reading emails and checking the local help the aged events , even though our BB line is shared with the rest of our household ,Vm towers have nothing in place to distinguish between the two types of customer,instead their letter tells us to upgrade our BB package ,(£37 a month for 5mb seems a bit pricey,or is that just me) or change our behaviour ,the nerve of them !

homealone
30-05-2008, 03:29
The fact STM does not affect you, as you say, means you have nothing more to add to the debate either ;).

It's not your business what other people do with their connections, you cant complain because VM has sold it as unlimited and people are actually using it.

Again, the whole point of a high speed connection is so you can download files faster, not start the download, have a 20mbit speed burst for 20 mins then down to 5mbit taking twice as long to get the file downloaded.

All because your happy to sit here and be ripped off it does not mean others are.

You seem to think anyone who downloads is an abuser? what about households with more than 1 pc? people who have kids? i can easily use that STM limit up within an hour with iplayer/youtube/game/updates/patches.

You think its fair to class them as abusers because they sometimes have to download large files?

You do realise STM is NOT in place to stop heavy downloaders, right?

It's there so they can keep on signing more people up while not having to give the customers what they are actually paying for.

I think you need to remember normal people have lifes, jobs and other things to do...and are only online for a few hours today, if they want to download something in those few hours at the speed they are paying for ,they should be allowed.

While I don't deny some of those points, the fact is most are surmountable with strategy, if you want to 'dumb down' use of the internet, then fair do - your 'normal people' may have some issues - but I don't think you really expect 'most' people are as dumb as you think & you are just trying to pursue an agenda.

Not a problem, in itself, but don't underestimate the casual user - there is no reason why they cannot be educated to get the most from their connection - and queuing downloads outside of STM time slots is part of that, imo :)

/ queues download, sets pc to shut down when complete, goes to bed ...

TraxData
30-05-2008, 03:32
While I don't deny some of those points, the fact is most are surmountable with strategy, if you want to 'dumb down' use of the internet, then fair do - your 'normal people' may have some issues - but I don't think you really expect 'most' people are as dumb as you think & you are just trying to pursue an agenda.

Not a problem, in itself, but don't underestimate the casual user - there is no reason why they cannot be educated to get the most from their connection - and queuing downloads outside of STM time slots is part of that, imo :)

It's not a matter of educating them, it's a matter of why should they have to?

They are paying for a high speed connection, they should be allowed to use it when they need it, not when they are in bed.

What use is it when your asleep? you cant game/play demos/watch iplayer while your asleep can you? are you superhuman? :p:

So basically your saying customers should pay £37 for that high speed connection so they can use it when they are in bed, you should work for VM, you'd make a great manager, neil has the same views, sell them something, just dont let them use it. :dunce:

bigsanta11
30-05-2008, 03:36
pippincp some people would defend and be happy if virgin burst through their doors.
ripped out the cable modem took it with them and slapped them with a removal bill.
then forced to sign a new contract saying they must never use virgin again ever.
but you still need to pay us 37 pounds a month every months for 24 months.

they'd take a good look at it say hmm, not bad price i can put up with that.
that's the whole impression i get of people here, who's actually paying customers.



That IS the exact type of person that defends the bbc/capita tv tax methods ,particularly the tv tax threatening letters and the bbc/capitas enforcement officers methods over on the digitalspy forums.

Only too happy to hand over their money and even say thank you for the further kick in the knackers.

pip08456
30-05-2008, 03:40
@ frogstamper. Point taken

---------- Post added at 02:40 ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 ----------

That IS the exact type of person that defends the bbc/capita tv tax methods ,particularly the tv tax threatening letters and the bbc/capitas enforcement officers methods over on the digitalspy forums.

Only too happy to hand over their money and even say thank you for the further kick in the knackers.

Just to clarify, GraphiX wasn't referring to me but to a comment I'd made in reply to a previous one. In fact I emailed VM threatening to leave and have had £9.00 knocked off my monthly bill.
They've told me it will improve in a month(is that the 50 Mbps rollout?) but I've told them if it doesn't I'm still off! I'd still pay less with BE and BT line rental!

bigsanta11
30-05-2008, 03:49
---------- Post added at 02:49 ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 ----------

@ frogstamper. Point taken

---------- Post added at 02:40 ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 ----------



Just to clarify, GraphiX wasn't referring to me but to a comment I'd made in reply to a previous one.


Yeah,i understood GraphiX's comment :)

pip08456
30-05-2008, 04:19
If VM stick to what they have "intimated" on the 50 Mbps rollout, ie STM will be relaxed as pressure will be off the system, I will consider staying with them - especially with my £9.00 pm discount for min 12 months :p::p::p::p::p:
But I will still be off to BE if it doesn't pan out as I've had so many good reports about them.

IMHO ALL premium users should threaten to leave, get the discount and then VM might actually listen!

LostintheNW
30-05-2008, 09:38
VM are not bothered about losing customers over this, less customers more network resources (should have sodding upgraded the network in the first place - although C&W did spout that Manchester for one had one of the best cable networks...liars!) - I have had many a discussion about this and been told that it is still an unlimited service as i can still download unlimited amounts of data, they will not accept that it is a limited service and still claim they can sell it as an unlimited BB service.

Whats going to happen when VM decide to go with streaming TV, are we going to be limited on the amount of TV we can watch?!?!?!

The STM system is a complete joke and is doing nothing but to push customers off the network and elsewhere - IMO I can't wait to see this shower of *****e go bust

CrowmanUK
30-05-2008, 12:34
Mr Homealone we've obviously got different opinions on what you're supposed to get from VM, which is great, different opinions open up different arguments so its nice to see everyone isnt a VM hater on here, I dunno what you meant about illegal modems, I certainly didnt mention or know anything about them, when I spoke about mr car booter i was referring to the kind of user who downloads stuff all day long, not somebody with dodgy hardware.
VM say on their website that traffic managing only affects 5% of their user base on a daily basis, I cant argue with that as I dont know the figures but I'd argue that it could affect anybody, not just the high downloaders, as I said before, a patch here, bit of streaming TV and you're into traffic management grounds, I dont think theyre using the right method to prop the network up, if they actually traffic managed the top 5% of downloaders instead of putting a bandwidth usage up that could restrict people who arent heavy users then that might be lot better, check the adsl policy, maybe thats more like what they should be looking at for broadband, obviously not with an 8k/sec limit though.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, its all about convenience, if i've paid for a connection so I can make fast downloads when I want and watch streaming tv when I want then that IS what I want!
VM at the moment seems like the dutch boy and the dam constantly looking for timezones to plug so the network doesnt fall over.

p.s I was with Blueyonder for 5 years (cheer), vm adsl for 6 weeks (booo) now i'm with BE and all is hunky dory for now.

ceedee
30-05-2008, 12:44
While I don't deny some of those points, the fact is most are surmountable with strategy, if you want to 'dumb down' use of the internet, then fair do - your 'normal people' may have some issues - but I don't think you really expect 'most' people are as dumb as you think & you are just trying to pursue an agenda.

Not a problem, in itself, but don't underestimate the casual user - there is no reason why they cannot be educated to get the most from their connection - and queuing downloads outside of STM time slots is part of that, imo :)

/ queues download, sets pc to shut down when complete, goes to bed ...

While I agree with the nay-sayers that having to wait until 9pm to start my 4Mb/s downloads is an inconvenience, I'll have downloaded over 150GB this month without being STM'd once.

If you feel that VM are ripping you off, then write and complain; downgrade your connection; demand a discount; or dump your cable connection and switch to ADSL. There's at least a chance that letting VirginMedia know that you are unhappy might persuade them to change their policy.

But adding another, increasingly hysterical, claim of how STM will endanger the planet on CableForum will get you nowhere. And criticizing helpful and knowledgeable people like homealone is out of order. Please stop it.