View Full Version : 50Mbit Rollout Has Started
TraxData
20-04-2008, 17:44
Dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but 50mbit upgrade/rollout started earlier this week, some area's are now enabled ready for it (and configs are sitting nicely on the servers)...EX CW area's only right now!
Why even bother when they clearly cant provide 20mb to all customers?
TraxData
20-04-2008, 17:45
Why even bother when they clearly cant provide 20mb to all customers?
It will be using pre-docsis3 which will clear bandwith up on the docsis1 tier packages, so hopefully it will help...
whydoIneedatech
20-04-2008, 17:48
Dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but 50mbit upgrade/rollout started earlier this week, some area's are now enabled ready for it (and configs are sitting nicely on the servers)...EX CW area's only right now!
If its true then it will be trial area, because we in the call centres would be in for a bit of a surprise otherwise if someone rang in with a 50 meg fault.:eeek:
I kind of think that we will find out before the public when the 50 meg is due to be launched.:)
TraxData
20-04-2008, 17:49
If its true then it will be trial area, because we in the call centres would be in for a bit of a surprise otherwise if someone rang in with a 50 meg fault.:eeek:
I kind of think that we will find out before the public when the 50 meg is due to be launched.:)
No offense but call centre staff are the last to find out about anything at VM.
Edit : Not trial area, this is official upgrade rollout ready for the product release.
GreyWolf
20-04-2008, 17:53
I will pass on the 50mbit service as I was hoping for a bit more value for my money.
Thanks for the info ;)
No offense but call centre staff are the last to find out about anything at VM.
Edit : Not trial area, this is official upgrade rollout ready for the product release.
pointless if its traffic shaped!
Is that to go with 20Mb business config in Nottingham (which it isn't) and the 50Mb trial you were on which Notts isn't configured for
Given what happened last week and the fact you would need your own fibre connection for all these services you had, just how true is this statement and from what official source
---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------
If its true then it will be trial area, because we in the call centres would be in for a bit of a surprise otherwise if someone rang in with a 50 meg fault.:eeek:
I kind of think that we will find out before the public when the 50 meg is due to be launched.:)
Its still only in the trial area's, no roll out has started as its a massive undertaking for training etc for new modems. It won't just happen
TraxData
20-04-2008, 18:02
Is that to go with 20Mb business config in Nottingham (which it isn't) and the 50Mb trial you were on which Notts isn't configured for
Given what happened last week and the fact you would need your own fibre connection for all these services you had, just how true is this statement and from what official source
---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------
Its still only in the trial area's, no roll out has started as its a massive undertaking for training etc for new modems. It won't just happen
I think you'll find my info has never been incorrect, i suggest you go read up on my previous posts thankyou very much.
I assume your a knowledgable person, i assume you know how to use certain sites, go look for yourself, the 20mbit business config is already on the headend, its just not enabled in most area's for use, so again, check your info before you start accusing.
Hardly, you can have more than 1 account in your household you know, as long as its under a different name, so quit talkin crap.
P.S Just to clarify i had 20mbit Residental (under gfs name) 20mbit business (under my name) and Be 24mbit ADSL+2 under my name with a BT line, so no, i wouldnt need my own fibre connection, so please, get your facts right.
The upgrades may be being rolled out now, but hopefully they will wait to officially launch the 50Mb service until they have finished with the BB L tier upgrade.
It is all very well saying the CS/TSC staff may be the last to know, but until you can phone one of us and ask for the 50Mb service, it is all a bit academic
Whilst the infrastructure is being put in place, nothing is being rolled out. You will recieve all training required and you won't be the last to know. As you say its academic, because no one can get the service until all this is done.
By the way there is no 20Mb Config file for business and yes I have checked and you forgot your 50Mb trial service as well.
TraxData
20-04-2008, 18:47
Whilst the infrastructure is being put in place, nothing is being rolled out. You will recieve all training required and you won't be the last to know. As you say its academic, because no one can get the service until all this is done.
By the way there is no 20Mb Config file for business and yes I have checked and you forgot your 50Mb trial service as well.
All training required? oh dear someone doesnt know VM very well.
Yes there is, perhaps you need to look harder, here is the filename for you, you can find it quite easily, here is a hint for you cmbus-pkg3, thankyou.
And i wasnt on the trial service, i was using for test/load balancing on the ubrs, please get your facts straight, you dont know what i do for a living nor what i am involved in tyvm.
AbyssUnderground
20-04-2008, 18:55
Whilst the infrastructure is being put in place, nothing is being rolled out. You will recieve all training required and you won't be the last to know. As you say its academic, because no one can get the service until all this is done.
By the way there is no 20Mb Config file for business and yes I have checked and you forgot your 50Mb trial service as well.
As said by the OP, get your facts right. And there IS a 20Mb config for business, its been confirmed by people using it.
I suggest you should do it the way people do on my forum. If you can't prove what you are saying, don't say it at all. Since TraxData is an ex employee you can be assured his information is correct.
Based upon previous experience, if Virgin want 50 meg to everywhere by the end if the year (bearing in mind that they won't be doing upgrades in December due to Christmas, they will have started rolling it out somepoint betwen now and the end of next month.
The fact they haven't told their staff unfortunately means nothing.
50 mbit get the rest of cable and adsl networks working better and sort out traffic shaping whats the point of having 50mbit when u cant even use it to its full speed complete waste of time
50mbit - STM = £64.99 would you pay ?
50mbit - STM = £64.99 would you pay ?
where did that figure come from. Is that the cost of 50 meg ?
Nope. At the trial stage the price for 50Mb was £10 above the 20Mb service. so £47 by itself or you would be looking at (based on current offers) £41 with the phone or £51 with TV and phone
Obviously no confirmed prices have been announced yet
frogstamper
20-04-2008, 21:02
I wonder if the 50mb will be included in the VIP package? I think if it is then the price will go up to £95-£99pm, that's my prophecy.;)
All training required? oh dear someone doesnt know VM very well.
Yes there is, perhaps you need to look harder, here is the filename for you, you can find it quite easily, here is a hint for you cmbus-pkg3, thankyou.
And i wasnt on the trial service, i was using for test/load balancing on the ubrs, please get your facts straight, you dont know what i do for a living nor what i am involved in tyvm.
Thye config file may exist but its not active in Notts and as a ex employee your not involved in anything with VM so what you are saying is all hearsay and lately incorrect. I know you arn't on the trial but I also now there is no 50Mb in Notts
TraxData
20-04-2008, 21:05
Thye config file may exist but its not active in Notts and as a ex employee your not involved in anything with VM so what you are saying is all hearsay and lately incorrect. I know you arn't on the trial but I also now there is no 50Mb in Notts
Look mate, learn to spell and stop talking out of your rear end for a second.
Earlier you denied the config existed and denied it was on the server and you apparently even searched for it and it wasnt there, now your saying it is, but its not active, your wrong, quite a few people are already using the config, perhaps you should ring the business BB number and talk to them about it.
I repeat, yet again, for you.
I was not on the trial, there is no trial in nottingham, it was for load/balancing testing purposes only, every area has this run to see how stable the cabs/ubr/headends are, so again, please get your facts right.
whydoIneedatech
20-04-2008, 21:32
As said by the OP, get your facts right. And there IS a 20Mb config for business, its been confirmed by people using it.
I suggest you should do it the way people do on my forum. If you can't prove what you are saying, don't say it at all. Since TraxData is an ex employee you can be assured his information is correct.
Wow you hit the nail on the head they are an "EX-EMPLOYEE" not an "EMPLOYEE" so his" FACTS" are obviously wrong as TSC would have to be trained and so would Customer services or the so called 50 meg rollout would fall over in the first week! and could you imagine the uproar and bad press.
Think twice before believing everything your "EX-EMPLOYEE" prints listen to what the present staff have to say about it!
Thye config file may exist but its not active in Notts and as a ex employee your not involved in anything with VM so what you are saying is all hearsay and lately incorrect. I know you arn't on the trial but I also now there is no 50Mb in Notts
I don't believe he said there was.
And if he had, that is *not* how VM have operated in the past, something which I would have said.
VM introduce these things area by area, to minimise the load on Customer Support and faults (especially if something goes wrong).
TraxData
20-04-2008, 21:36
Wow you hit the nail on the head they are an "EX-EMPLOYEE" not an "EMPLOYEE" so his" FACTS" are obviously wrong as TSC would have to be trained and so would Customer services or the so called 50 meg rollout would fall over in the first week! and could you imagine the uproar and bad press.
Think twice before believing everything your "EX-EMPLOYEE" prints listen to what the present staff have to say about it!
Again, back to my earlier point, TSC are will be one of the last set of people to hear about things, past problems within VM would tell you this, hell they was the last ones to be told about STM come to think of it.
But im not here to force people to believe me, people will believe whatever this wish to, but i have been correct on everything i've said in the past so least its something to validate what i say, also alot of ex VM staff are still involved somewhat with VM one way or another.
Impz2002
20-04-2008, 21:42
Wow you hit the nail on the head they are an "EX-EMPLOYEE" not an "EMPLOYEE" so his" FACTS" are obviously wrong as TSC would have to be trained and so would Customer services or the so called 50 meg rollout would fall over in the first week! and could you imagine the uproar and bad press.
Think twice before believing everything your "EX-EMPLOYEE" prints listen to what the present staff have to say about it!
If you read what Trax has said you would realise he has at no point stated that the 50meg product was being LAUNCHED. he has stated that the roll-out of the pre DOCSIS 3.0 technology has started. if you are stupid enough to believe that all that is involved in launching a new protocol on the network is to flick the big magical switch then you are deluded.
Trax has been a good source of information over the time i have spent on CF and it would really hack me off if i was helping people out by giving information only to be called a liar and have my head bitten off every time i spoke. Now may i suggest you go and spend a little time reading about how DOCSIS works and how it is implemented on a cable network.
Impz
pointless discussing it. Trax obviously has an axe to grind with VM as an Ex Employee but he is very inaccurate in some of his statements both here and on the Newsgroups. He has no idea what is happening with the 50Mb rollout but is obviously being fed false titbits by some ex colleagues for a laugh.
I would much rather respond to a more well informed post from a current employee
---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------
Again, back to my earlier point, TSC are will be one of the last set of people to hear about things, past problems within VM would tell you this, hell they was the last ones to be told about STM come to think of it.
But im not here to force people to believe me, people will believe whatever this wish to, but i have been correct on everything i've said in the past so least its something to validate what i say, also alot of ex VM staff are still involved somewhat with VM one way or another.
I think the TSC know quite a lot about 50Mb as they are supporting the trial
TraxData
20-04-2008, 21:44
pointless discussing it. Trax obviously has an axe to grind with VM as an Ex Employee but he is very inaccurate in some of his statements both here and on the Newsgroups. He has no idea what is happening with the 50Mb rollout but is obviously being fed false titbits by some ex colleagues for a laugh.
I would much rather respond to a more well informed post from a current employee
If you say so mate, i was quite happy with working with vm on the side and staying with them for BB,TV etc until this STM came into play..then phorm...
Well informed current employee? that's fine, but employees aint allowed to give out info, it breaks their NDA, i get my info from people very high up in the chain.
I suggest you check the new STM statement thread and the fact i said the new trials were being run (including the trials for overnight stm) before anyone in VM would ever admit it.
I'm not quite sure why everyone is arguing about this.
Virgin could roll out all the 50Mb upgrades to the network tomorrow if they liked. It still would not matter until you can actually phone up Virgin and ask for the product.
Also, I would like to point out, one of the reasons that Virgin sometimes don't let staff know about stuff until it is official, is to stop things getting posted to the web before it should.
This is a case in point (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/104/33631253-new-samsung-v-box-its-way.html)
TraxData
20-04-2008, 21:45
pointless discussing it. Trax obviously has an axe to grind with VM as an Ex Employee but he is very inaccurate in some of his statements both here and on the Newsgroups. He has no idea what is happening with the 50Mb rollout but is obviously being fed false titbits by some ex colleagues for a laugh.
I would much rather respond to a more well informed post from a current employee
---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------
I think the TSC know quite a lot about 50Mb as they are supporting the trial
Yes, the key word there is "Trial" this has nothing to do with the trial, i dont think your quite understanding what im actually saying.
This is to do with the fact VM have now starting the rollout of upgrades required to launch the 50mbit package.
Impz2002
20-04-2008, 21:50
I would much rather respond to a more well informed post from a current employee
What an employee from CS ?
come on we all know they are the last to know about everything. I had to tell the CS that BB was enabled in my area when i first signed up for my 512kb (oh the days :) and then once again when i wanted my 10meg update. CS only know what they are told by management and if you look at past experience that is very little and much too late.
Trax knows about the network architecture and how things fit together. I don't suppose the boys and girls in CS know the innermost workings of the UBR's or the CMTS or anything else for that matter. You make your choices but i know who my money is on !
Impz
---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:48 ----------
This is to do with the fact VM have now starting the rollout of upgrades required to launch the 50mbit package.
I dont think you can spell it out any clearer ! hehe
whydoIneedatech
20-04-2008, 21:50
Yes, the key word there is "Trial" this has nothing to do with the trial, i dont think your quite understanding what im actually saying.
This is to do with the fact VM have now starting the rollout of upgrades required to launch the 50mbit package.
I do and your chatting hits ( I believe my previous word was mis- spelt ) and winding people up by having them believe that tomorrow they can order 50 meg, your April Fool joke is 19 days late.:nono:
Even if you just point out that they are upgrading the infrastructure so to encompass 50 meg which has been ongoing since before the 50 meg announcement, this thread is basically in place as a wind up, because what is actually happening with regards to the 50 meg rollout is mostly common knowledge.
Full training of TSC staff so that the service can be supported, and full training of Customer services and Sales staff so they can provide the relevant level of service required will happen before a 50 meg service is put on sale to anyone.
Anyone who is stupid enough to say the above staff are the last to know should think about that comment, what do you want trained staff who know your product or surprised staff who are the last to know about a new product.
TraxData
20-04-2008, 21:54
Where have i been winding people up as you so kindly put it? i have not said you can go and order it have i? just stating that the upgrade/pre-rollout has now started.
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 21:54
Dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but 50mbit upgrade/rollout started earlier this week, some area's are now enabled ready for it (and configs are sitting nicely on the servers)...EX CW area's only right now!
You are talking rubbish.. The only 50Mb/s enabled area on VM is the Ashford/Dover/Folkstone trial.
There is one other area that has some of the kit in place - but not all of it.. and it is on the ex-Telewest Platform..
Why do you continue to spout off with info that is so false it is unbelievable:mad:
Impz2002
20-04-2008, 21:54
I do and your chatting hits ( I believe my previous word was mis- spelt ) and winding people up by having them believe that tomorrow they can order 50 meg, your April Fool joke is 19 days late.:nono:
Oh my god i cannot believe you lack even the most basic levels of intelligence !
To provide 50meg Virgin needs to roll out the DOCSIS 3.0 network. This is a lengthy and technical process and requires lots of new hardware and setup. 50meg is still months away from launch but VM have started upgrading the different area's of the network to support the new technology. This is called a ROLL-OUT ! the current docsis 1.0 system cannot even handle 50meg so how can it be launched ?
Give me strength !
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 21:56
It will be using pre-docsis3 which will clear bandwith up on the docsis1 tier packages, so hopefully it will help...
VM are not going pre-DoCSIS 3.0.. They will launch with full 3.0 compliant CPE.. More Traxdata rubbish info:p:
---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:55 ----------
No offense but call centre staff are the last to find out about anything at VM.
Edit : Not trial area, this is official upgrade rollout ready for the product release.
There has been no official upgrade rollout yet..:p:
TraxData
20-04-2008, 21:58
You are talking rubbish.. The only 50Mb/s enabled area on VM is the Ashford/Dover/Folkstone trial.
There is one other area that has some of the kit in place - but not all of it.. and it is on the ex-Telewest Platform..
Why do you continue to spout off with info that is so false it is unbelievable:mad:
Your the one talking rubbish, where did i say enabled?
The Upgrade/Pre-rollout started taking place this week, you know, they have just started upgrading the hardware ready for the full roll out, why are some of you not understanding this?
And you wouldnt know what areas, unless your high up in VM, tyvm.
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 22:05
Look mate, learn to spell and stop talking out of your rear end for a second.
Earlier you denied the config existed and denied it was on the server and you apparently even searched for it and it wasnt there, now your saying it is, but its not active, your wrong, quite a few people are already using the config, perhaps you should ring the business BB number and talk to them about it.
I repeat, yet again, for you.
I was not on the trial, there is no trial in nottingham, it was for load/balancing testing purposes only, every area has this run to see how stable the cabs/ubr/headends are, so again, please get your facts right.
20Mb/s has not been launched for Business.. There is a trial currently running but not in Notts.. You continue to talk out of your rear end:p:
---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------
If you read what Trax has said you would realise he has at no point stated that the 50meg product was being LAUNCHED. he has stated that the roll-out of the pre DOCSIS 3.0 technology has started. if you are stupid enough to believe that all that is involved in launching a new protocol on the network is to flick the big magical switch then you are deluded.
Trax has been a good source of information over the time i have spent on CF and it would really hack me off if i was helping people out by giving information only to be called a liar and have my head bitten off every time i spoke. Now may i suggest you go and spend a little time reading about how DOCSIS works and how it is implemented on a cable network.
Impz
Trax is talking out of his rear.. The only 50Mb/s capable kit currently in the network is the Kent trial area.
---------- Post added at 21:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------
If you say so mate, i was quite happy with working with vm on the side and staying with them for BB,TV etc until this STM came into play..then phorm...
Well informed current employee? that's fine, but employees aint allowed to give out info, it breaks their NDA, i get my info from people very high up in the chain.
I suggest you check the new STM statement thread and the fact i said the new trials were being run (including the trials for overnight stm) before anyone in VM would ever admit it.
Who ever you are getting your info from they are pulling your chain as you haven't had any accurate information that I can see
---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------
Your the one talking rubbish, where did i say enabled?
The Upgrade/Pre-rollout started taking place this week, you know, they have just started upgrading the hardware ready for the full roll out, why are some of you not understanding this?
And you wouldnt know what areas, unless your high up in VM, tyvm.
You don't need to be very high up in VM to know where the 10Ks are going in;), but they are not going in for 50Mb/s you tube!
whydoIneedatech
20-04-2008, 22:11
Oh my god i cannot believe you lack even the most basic levels of intelligence !
To provide 50meg Virgin needs to roll out the DOCSIS 3.0 network. This is a lengthy and technical process and requires lots of new hardware and setup. 50meg is still months away from launch but VM have started upgrading the different area's of the network to support the new technology. This is called a ROLL-OUT ! the current docsis 1.0 system cannot even handle 50meg so how can it be launched ?
Give me strength !
You need mental strength to read my SECOND paragraph with regards to the infrastructure ( try a dictionary for meaning ) I am not talking about it being launched the threads author just appearss to be having his chain jerked.
So for the insult and on behalf of your own STUPIDITY:2up:
TraxData
20-04-2008, 22:14
20Mb/s has not been launched for Business.. There is a trial currently running but not in Notts.. You continue to talk out of your rear end:p:
---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------
Trax is talking out of his rear.. The only 50Mb/s capable kit currently in the network is the Kent trial area.
---------- Post added at 21:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------
Who ever you are getting your info from they are pulling your chain as you haven't had any accurate information that I can see
---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------
You don't need to be very high up in VM to know where the 10Ks are going in;), but they are not going in for 50Mb/s you tube!
How would you know? go on, tell me your source ;)
The upgrades required for the rollout of 50mbit started this week, if you know anybody who works for VM, you'd know that.
My source, one of the managers in the network planning team and 2 other people even higher up.
Lol, just lol at the last comment.
I dont know why i bother.
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 22:18
How would you know? go on, tell me your source ;)
The upgrades required for the rollout of 50mbit started this week, if you know anybody who works for VM, you'd know that.
My source, one of the managers in the network planning team and 2 other people even higher up.
Lol, just lol at the last comment.
I dont know why i bother.
I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of letting on how I know..
The upgrades that are underway currently are for normal growth and for the 4-10Mb/s Speed Uplift.. Not 50Mb/s.. The kit that is going in has the connections to add the 50Mb/s equipment to it.... but.. it is not there yet.
Your source(s) are wrong:D
TraxData
20-04-2008, 22:19
I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of letting on how I know..
The upgrades that are underway currently are for normal growth and for the 4-10Mb/s Speed Uplift.. Not 50Mb/s.. The kit that is going in has the connections to add the 50Mb/s equipment to it.... but.. it is not there yet.
Your source(s) are wrong:D
I think the amount of posts i have and the amount of reps i have for providing info in the past about internal things at VM prove my point, good day.
And go back to DW thankyou :)
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 22:22
I think the amount of posts i have and the amount of reps i have for providing info in the past about internal things at VM prove my point, good day.
And go back to DW thankyou :)
I got tipped off that there was some nomark over here on CF spouting rubbish so I thought I would come on over and dispell the myth that is Traxdata.
Your reps mean nothing.. You have some low level info from inside VM that is inveriably incorrect and that is it
TraxData
20-04-2008, 22:22
I got tipped off that there was some nomark over here on CF spouting rubbish so I thought I would come on over and dispell the myth that is Traxdata.
Your reps mean nothing.. You have some low level info from inside VM that is inveriably incorrect and that is it
Have a good day.
frogstamper
20-04-2008, 22:23
I wouldn't give you the satisfaction of letting on how I know..
The upgrades that are underway currently are for normal growth and for the 4-10Mb/s Speed Uplift.. Not 50Mb/s.. The kit that is going in has the connections to add the 50Mb/s equipment to it.... but.. it is not there yet.
Your source(s) are wrong:D
At the end of the day mate most people on this forum would rather take Traxs word for it than a relative newcomer who is downright rude.:shrug:
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 22:23
Have a good day.
I always do.. :cool:
TraxData
20-04-2008, 22:24
I always do.. :cool:
Mod edit (Gavin): Removed
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 22:25
At the end of the day mate most people on this forum would rather take Traxs word for it than a relative newcomer who is downright rude.:shrug:
I am only rude to those that think they know something, hoodwink others into believing the same when in fact they are running their mouths off with no facts..
I may be a newcomer here.. But to the industry.. Not So!:)
TraxData
20-04-2008, 22:26
At the end of the day mate most people on this forum would rather take Traxs word for it than a relative newcomer who is downright rude.:shrug:
Thankyou :)
---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------
I am only rude to those that think they know something, hoodwink others into believing the same when in fact they are running their mouths off with no facts..
I may be a newcomer here.. But to the industry.. Not So!:)
Mod edit: Removed
broadbandbug
20-04-2008, 22:27
Thankyou :)
---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------
Lol, your a VM tech who sells illegal boxes.
Now stop trolling and go to bed.
Lol...Sorry no van for me:D
I suggest you check the new STM statement thread and the fact i said the new trials were being run (including the trials for overnight stm) before anyone in VM would ever admit it.
Without wishing to get involved in this VM Tech hate-fest (nothing to do with Trax's spat with Alex Brown, I'm sure!), I don't think VM have yet acknowledged that their STM trials extend to overnight.
Wonder if that'll be another of Trax's rumours that takes weeks before we get an official confirmation?
zing_deleted
20-04-2008, 22:53
Seems like ive walked into a playground . Least I aint involved ;) A lot of the info Trax has had leaked to him has been spot on his record speaks for me even though we aint always got on I have to back him up on this. I cant believe how this thread has got so hostile. If someone has got a source that leaks information and that then in turn that information is leaked here why is it so hard to accept CS do not know about it? thats the whole point of having a source for leaked information. If it was common knowledge there would be no point of leaking the details would there. I think everyone shoud wind their necks in kiss and make up ;)
icestar2
20-04-2008, 23:29
Lol what a great read this has been. Sorry to go off topic but I have been laughing at the insults going back and forth.
I've been sat with this thread and a cup of hot coco since the start. Now, (in my best welsh accent) "It's a cracking thread!".
MovedGoalPosts
20-04-2008, 23:39
Children, Children. Stop the petty flame war, or action will be taken
slowcoach
21-04-2008, 00:32
In an ex C+W area here and after our impromptu upgrade last week (just a couple of days notice on the VM upgrade list) I have been getting 2.33 MB/s at all times throughout the weekend.
Either they have put a new wick in the lamp or something is afoot.
Dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but 50mbit upgrade/rollout started earlier this week, some area's are now enabled ready for it (and configs are sitting nicely on the servers)...EX CW area's only right now!
Oh, as in the Baguley exC&W building do you mean?.....:shocked: if so.
i wonder what kit they are installing, and what and who's CPE (the new bonded modems sat on your desk your going to need to use it at that speed) they are contracting to use.
I'm not quite sure why everyone is arguing about this.
Virgin could roll out all the 50Mb upgrades to the network tomorrow if they liked. It still would not matter until you can actually phone up Virgin and ask for the product.
Also, I would like to point out, one of the reasons that Virgin sometimes don't let staff know about stuff until it is official, is to stop things getting posted to the web before it should.
This is a case in point (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/104/33631253-new-samsung-v-box-its-way.html)
first thanks for pointing that thread out, i dont know how i missed that one.
as Trax said, its all about "the rollout of upgrades required to launch the 50mbit package."
you might have an aversion to leaks of information as it understandably might effect the increased calls to CS staff etc that dont know about it yet.
you have said it yourself though, not everyone reads the CF forums or any other tech sites that the info might find its way too, so not really a big problem is it!.
however that doesnt take away the facts, any, lets call it a "pre-rollout" if you like, has to be performed so as to then find a wider base of users to take the next step and confirm theres not going to be a massive collapse or meltdown of that section of the VM Broadband Network in a production environment, YES?
the very people VM could learn the most from, are the very same people posting right here right NOW.
as we are many of the tech VM BB users, covering everything from the most basic to the most advanced cable etc,and are already in all the area's VM will eventually sell the produce and they can benefit from that cf feedback if they so choose directly.
iv tryed to get on the trials in the past to be helpful and give valid and real feedback or potential problems into the small circles conducting them.
but due to not being in the right areas were the the new Docsis2.0b/pre-docsis3.0 kit is installed iv never been able to do that, Traxdata and one other have non the less relayed my thoughts about Bronze/siver Multicast etc as it relates to the VM docsis3 certificates to those that know and hopefully been taken onboard.
if this VM were to take a selection of user from this board they would perhaps learn far more valuble lessons on what we want to pay for, and profit directly from that advice and feedback long term, rather than taking some random userbase that perhaps dont know or care about how it works, or what can be done with it in the future if the selected kit had all the required options installed as standard from day one.
there are masses of people on the VM network that are not techy and dont know what they want until they see something in actuality, but once they see its advantages, they too learn to use it to its full advantage, YES?
as a techy poster , i have gone looking to see whats available right now off the shelf and in SOC (System On a Chip)form to be made into a commisioned product, and how it might be of benefit to me as a user if VM were to impliment it and offer as a product to me.
iv also put myself in VMs shoes and tryed to find ways they might do it and make a reasonable profit in the process over the long term (hence my aversion to recomend this new yet antiquated VM 11g wireless product just as everyone else is moving to 11N see Cheap Draft 802.11n Router Roundup (http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30387/96/1/6/) to get end user priced 11n kit for around the same price as the VM 11g price if you come off the package before 12 months is up for instance ).
while generally speaking, the exC&W/exWHATEVER hardware functions to a usable level and is stable, the facts are in the recent past, many (ex-pre)Virgin Media selected tech has been way behind the basic curve in it's hardware implimentation never mind the advanced curve and thats a fact.
and so its reasonable to assume that the same internal faulty mindset from people inside still exists, and will infact take the short term cheapest options for maximum short term return in the current rollouts, i really hope im wrong on that , but the past actions are clear to see and judge.
rolling out new antiquated VM Mpeg2 only STBs when everyones in the EU are moving to dual AVC/Mpeg2.
rolling out new antiquated 11g wireless routers when everyone else is moving to 11n.
shipping docsis2 stand alone cable modems without upgrading the docsis1.1 UBR cards at the other end, so as to give the impression it will run faster.
the inept restriction of allowing only one cable modem per account, thats just a classic new brand-new thinking, from the faulty people inside VM mindset and throwing potential good extra cash profits away for no good reason.
the fact that every single VM STB has a totally seperate built-in cable modem today, and yet other than exC&W they didnt see fit to use that, not even as a secondary low spec BB connection on every single account which they can make extra profit on, and/or as a extra bonus free/cheap package, it's powered plug into the UBr, and available right now, with a simple config file sent to it today....pure VM profit for free, but not offered to the userbase as a package, madness.
and thats just the obvious, given the above, the docsis3 potential, and the AVC STB as a streaming multicast video central home entertainmment system not to mention the potential for a cheap generic wireless 11n/wimax chip/SOC fitted to any new VM STB doesnt seem like a viable long term option for the Virgin Media's users use.....does it.
some real 'new thinking' using existing off the shelf kit or a commisioned box for the long term expansion of VM services makes perfect sense, but how do you get around the internal faulty mindset or the short term penny counters employed by VM?.
---------- Post added at 07:36 ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 ----------
I do and your chatting hits ( I believe my previous word was mis- spelt ) and winding people up by having them believe that tomorrow they can order 50 meg, your April Fool joke is 19 days late.:nono:
Even if you just point out that they are upgrading the infrastructure so to encompass 50 meg which has been ongoing since before the 50 meg announcement, this thread is basically in place as a wind up, because what is actually happening with regards to the 50 meg rollout is mostly common knowledge.
Full training of TSC staff so that the service can be supported, and full training of Customer services and Sales staff so they can provide the relevant level of service required will happen before a 50 meg service is put on sale to anyone.
Anyone who is stupid enough to say the above staff are the last to know should think about that comment, what do you want trained staff who know your product or surprised staff who are the last to know about a new product.
your thinking or knowledge is in error apparently, do you also consider this ongoing general tech, docsis 2.0b/3.0, 50 Mbit thread #144 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34476302-post144.html) full of information as an april fool?, while its still april it might be foolish to imply its a windup given all the collected facts and information so far.
Ohh and by the way, you are aware VM themselves are infact already advertising this 50Mbit service on their web pages as pointed out by guess who ;)
Traxdata
and it wasnt april or the 1st,
21-03-2008
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-10.html#post34511603
"
When does up to 50Mb broadband arrive?
We’re planning to start rolling out up to 50Mb broadband later in the year.
We’ll be bringing it to our cable customers region-by-region – and we’ll be posting the dates for each region on our website closer to the time. Keep your eyes peeled to our website for more details....."
---------- Post added at 08:23 ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 ----------
VM are not going pre-DoCSIS 3.0.. They will launch with full 3.0 compliant CPE.. More Traxdata rubbish info:p:
---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:55 ----------
There has been no official upgrade rollout yet..:p:
interesting, and why exactly are you assuming this full 3.0 compliant CPE?
the facts are, there is of course, currently 'ONE' single CPE bonded docsis3.0 cable modem with official docsis certification.
produced by a non mainstream modem provider that is VERY unlikely to be in a position to ramp up commercial world wide production before the end of 2008 if ever.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-8.html#post34456487
and even then, that limited bonded docsis CPE production will most likely find its way to the already rolling out to the end users in the US
http://www.xchangemag.com/hotnews/comcast-details-its-first-docsis-3-0-deployme.html
Comcast Details Its First DOCSIS 3.0 Deployment.
Bob Wallace
04/04/2008
Comcast Corp. (http://www.comcast.com/) has announced its first deployment of DOCSIS 3.0 technology, in Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minn., which it claims enables it to offer residential and business customers downstream Internet access speeds of up to 50mbps and upstream speeds of up to 5mbps — its fastest access offering.
....
In a separate but related development, Time Warner Cable (http://www.timewarnercable.com/) is expected to begin deploying DOCSIS 3.0 later this month, according to a report released today by New Paradigm Resources Group (http://www.nprg.com/).
....
"
and while the Motorola’s DOCSIS 3.0-based SURFboard SB6120 cable modems are not fully certifyed only having Bronze as is the case for all the others (with one other i think having siver), JComs network being deployed for end users could just as well make use of the fully certifyed kit before the UK VM do OC.
as far as i know right now, the SB6120 isnt software upgradeable to the full spec and so might not even make it to silver certification...
http://www.convergedigest.com/DSL/lastmilearticle.asp?ID=24186&ctgy=
"Japan's J:COM Deploys Motorola's DOCSIS 3.0
Jupiter Telecommunications (J:COM), Japan’s largest multiple system operator (MSO), has selected Motorola’s channel bonding technology to deploy the company’s first DOCSIS 3.0-based Cable Modem Termination System (CMTS) and cable modems. Specifically, the deployment uses Motorola’s DOCSIS 3.0-based BSR 64000 CMTS/Edge Router and SURFboard SB6120 cable modems. Financial terms were not disclosed. Motorola said its solution is capable of delivering up to 160Mbps throughput to residential and commercial customers. "
whydoIneedatech
21-04-2008, 08:37
[QUOTE=popper;34534011]
Even if you just point out that they are upgrading the infrastructure so to encompass 50 meg which has been ongoing since before the 50 meg announcement, this thread is basically in place as a wind up, because what is actually happening with regards to the 50 meg rollout is mostly common knowledge.
================================================== =====================
Have you failed to read my Second paragraph not just your Bold lettering part, especially as you reposted it as a quote?
[quote=whydoIneedatech;34534029
[quote=popper;34534011]
popper said:your thinking or knowledge is in error apparently, do you also consider this ongoing general tech, docsis 2.0b/3.0, 50 Mbit thread #144 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34476302-post144.html) full of information as an april fool?, while its still april it might be foolish to imply its a windup given all the collected facts and information so far.
whydoIneedatechsaid:Have you failed to read my Second paragraph not just your Bold lettering part, especially as you reposted it as a quote?
i quoted it, and so i would hope you or anyone else would reasonabley think, i have infact read it, as i highlighted its contents.
your pulling me about a quote when you forgot your / quote ;)
the reason is simple, im directing you to were you can find many answers already posted on CF, the so called "mostly common knowledge" as you put it,follow it or not, thats your choice.....to learn or not.
if you think you have real and valid information to give then fine, and great, we all learn something new..., if not, then whats the point of your posting here?.
whydoIneedatech
21-04-2008, 09:17
[quote]
[quote=whydoIneedatech;34534029
i quoted it, and so i would hope you or anyone else would reasoably think, i have infact read it, as i highlighted its contents.
your pulling me about a quote when you forgot your / quote ;)
the reason is simple, im directing you to were you can find many answers already posted on CF, the so called "mostly common knowledge" as you put it,follow it or not, thats your choice.....to learn or not.
if you think you have real and valid information to give then fine, and great, we all learn something new..., if not, then whats the point of your posting here?.
================================================== ======================
I have corrected my post but my question still stands read the full paragraph.
I am more aware of the 50 meg Virgin stance than most on this thread, and feel that the so called original poster knows that this will cause people to ring in for their upgrade that is not yet available.
whydoIneedatech ill wait for you to do it properly before i answer.....
any quote you want to highlight, put inside open square bracket quote close square bracket TEXT..... open square bracket ,forward slash, quote close square bracket
or just left click and drag all the text highlight and then click the wrap quote tags button on the far right top...
---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------
ill reedit this after you have done that to make it tidy
;) this is why you need a tech :angel:
whydoIneedatech
21-04-2008, 09:45
whydoIneedatech ill wait for you to do it properly before i answer.....
any quote you want to highlight, put inside
or just right click an drag all the text highlight and then click the wrap quote tags button on the far right top...
---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------
ill reedit this after you have done that to make it tidy
;) this is why you need a tech :angel:
I love it when posts go of thread
I have corrected my post but my question still stands read the full paragraph.
I am more aware of the 50 meg Virgin stance than most on this thread, and feel that the so called original poster knows that this will cause people to ring in for their upgrade that is not yet available.
i cant wait any longer for you to tidy up so ill just reply.
its not clear you were infact asking a question,but rather making a statement, but no matter, perhaps you can rephrase this question to make it clear?
---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------
"I love it when posts go of thread"
indeed....
i have a direct question for you if you are indeed as you say "I am more aware of the 50 meg Virgin stance than most on this thread"
what are the current bonded cable modems in use right now as in the exact model No.s, their spec and certificate standing with the Docsis org.
and are they software upgradable to a higher cert in the near future once the bugs have been removed, if your more aware as you say, then this most basic information is easy for you to put forward and answer clearly here.
whydoIneedatech
21-04-2008, 09:59
i cant wait any longer for you to tidy up so ill just reply.
its not clear you were infact asking a question,but rather making a statement, but no matter, perhaps you can rephrase this question to make it clear?
---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------
indeed
Thats a bit too long a list considering all models accross Ex - NTL and EX- Telewest and I am not getting into a bun fight over modems, as some people say certain modems can do certain speeds.
Regards mate:LOL:
Regards mate:LOL:
yes, and Friendly greetings to you too, ;) but thats not your question(s) is it!.
and you didnt answer my direct questions as yet, why is that?.
to repeat.
i have a direct question for you if you are indeed as you say "I am more aware of the 50 meg Virgin stance than most on this thread"
what are the current bonded cable modems in use right now as in the exact model No.s, their spec and certificate standing with the Docsis org.
and are they software upgradable to a higher cert in the near future once the bugs have been removed, if your more aware as you say, then this most basic information is easy for you to put forward and answer clearly here.
zing_deleted
21-04-2008, 10:13
I feel he may not know dude.
Really if that is the case why come on a forum and get your back up for nothing? I for one if I say I know something when challenged id be more than happy to give the information to ram it down the throat of the persons challenging me. I certainly wouldnt avoid the question
looks like your were right zing, he's buggered off ;)
but perhaps he's gone to ask his tech for this most basic information as his bonded modem doesnt have a production sticker on its base :)
MovedGoalPosts
21-04-2008, 10:56
Perhaps we should remember that people aren't always glued to their computer so an immediae response to a post isn't to be expected.
zing_deleted
21-04-2008, 11:07
Perhaps we should remember that people aren't always glued to their computer so an immediae response to a post isn't to be expected.
He did respond he went Regards :LOL: your right of course an immediate response isnt to be expected but Rob if you had kept up he had already avoided the question and when asked again he avoided it again . So not "being glued to the PC" isnt his excuse. I do see he edited his avoidence after he was pressured however further avoiding the question
whydoIneedatech
21-04-2008, 11:15
looks like your were right zing, he's buggered off ;)
but perhaps he's gone to ask his tech for this most basic information as his bonded modem doesnt have a production sticker on its base :)
Read my reply above and remember people have work to do;)
---------- Post added at 11:15 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------
He did respond he went Regards :LOL: your right of course an immediate response isnt to be expected but Rob if you had kept up he had already avoided the question and when asked again he avoided it again . So not "being glued to the PC" isnt his excuse. I do see he edited his avoidence after he was pressured however further avoiding the question
The difference is I am fully trained with regards all makes and models of modems presently on the Virgin network, both EX-NTL and EX-Telewest models, which not everyone here will even know, and I have no need to write a description of each one just to prove a point.:)
looks like your were right zing, he's buggered off ;)
but perhaps he's gone to ask his tech for this most basic information as his bonded modem doesnt have a production sticker on its base :)
Information which you of course know
Lets face it Trax has leaked information from an unofficial source and has also been a tad naughty on the newsgroups. The accuracy of some of the information is questionable and his constent digs at VM techs and CSR's is a bit of pain given that he has absolutely no idea what information is being given to them or training.
zing_deleted
21-04-2008, 11:33
Read my reply above and remember people have work to do;)
---------- Post added at 11:15 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------
The difference is I am fully trained with regards all makes and models of modems presently on the Virgin network, both EX-NTL and EX-Telewest models, which not everyone here will even know, and I have no need to write a description of each one just to prove a point.:)
I mean this as no disrespect to you you I know at least 2 guys personally who know there stuff and there are a few on here that do but my experience of fone calls to tech even before the indian fiasco has not been good and ive ended up tellign them whats wrong.If your not prepared to proove your point as it were how are us lesser mortals to know if your credentials are good or not?
whydoIneedatech
21-04-2008, 11:40
I mean this as no disrespect to you you I know at least 2 guys personally who know there stuff and there are a few on here that do but my experience of fone calls to tech even before the indian fiasco has not been good and ive ended up tellign them whats wrong.If your not prepared to proove your point as it were how are us lesser mortals to know if your credentials are good or not?
Because I am not going to list 19 modems and their operational parameters plus STBs just to prove a point.;)
I know their capabilities and thats all thats required.:)
zing_deleted
21-04-2008, 11:47
That is your prerogative dont matter to me anyway I dont normally need help lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by whydoIneedatech http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33631817-50mbit-rollout-has-started-post-34534038.html#post34534038)
I have corrected my post but my question still stands read the full paragraph.
I am more aware of the 50 meg Virgin stance than most on this thread, and feel that the so called original poster knows that this will cause people to ring in for their upgrade that is not yet available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33631817-50mbit-rollout-has-started-page-5.html#post34534064)
i cant wait any longer for you to tidy up so ill just reply.
its not clear you were infact asking a question,but rather making a statement, but no matter, perhaps you can rephrase this question to make it clear?
---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------
indeed...
what are the current bonded cable modems in use right now as in the exact model No.s, their spec and certificate standing with the Docsis org.
and are they software upgradable to a higher cert in the near future once the bugs have been removed,
Thats a bit too long a list considering all models accross Ex - NTL and EX- Telewest and I am not getting into a bun fight over modems, as some people say certain modems can do certain speeds.
Regards mate:LOL:
well done whydoIneedatech ;), but thats rather a strange totally unrelated response as regards the one single bonded modem in use today question, to the people that have followed the thread so far at least.
iv added the current contents above for clarity you understand,after all we wouldnt want to take it off on a tangent now would we given the simple question put.
Read my reply above and remember people have work to do;)
indeed, as do we all, but its fun to keep the page open and re-fresh it now and then to keep up while your working as we are all doing presently.
The difference is I am fully trained with regards all makes and models of modems presently on the Virgin network, both EX-NTL and EX-Telewest models, which not everyone here will even know, and I have no need to write a description of each one just to prove a point.:)
indeed, as i suspected, and dont doubt, which makes your reply even more strange.
as its perfectly clear, you were asked to give just one single bit of basic information as regards the Bonded Modem(s) in question.
that would take you less time to type than the text you have written to explain your expertise in all things docsis (ex-pre)VM related....:angel:
Of course the current bonded modem(s) in use can and indeed may change before the real 70% rollout takes place as is expected if the current kit is only Bronze certifyed, but even i contend that Bronze is probably good enough for the moment other than the prefered Silver certificate for upstream bonding and far longer term options and profits,(not to mention shhh... that bronze security problem that silver would fix OC)
You are talking rubbish.. The only 50Mb/s enabled area on VM is the Ashford/Dover/Folkstone trial.
There is one other area that has some of the kit in place - but not all of it.. and it is on the ex-Telewest Platform..
Why do you continue to spout off with info that is so false it is unbelievable:mad:
This is from a someone who knows a lot more the technical side than I do ;)
Broadbandbug is being accurate on the DOCSIS 3. The Cisco 10ks that are going onto the network are not going on there for any sort of 50M rollout, they are going in purely to relieve black ports. There have been a few 10ks go in, some powered up, some just racked and waiting.
The 10ks are denser, they use less space and power to supply more capacity than the equivalent uBR7246VXR. Endless deployment of the 7246s isn't enough to keep up with capacity demands now, let alone complete the 4Mbit -> 10Mbit uplift.
The 10ks are not going in with the required line cards to do channel bonding initially. Basically to do the channel bonding the kit would go in but output digitally, the RF conversion would be done on QAMs external to the CMTS as it is with TV, where the channels are output digitally and fed to external boxes to be modulated onto an analogue carrer and from there FDM'd onto the forward path matrix.
You would have the Cisco 10k connected to a Scientific Atlanta QAM which would do the RF modulation so what the 10k actually outputs is digital rather than the integrated upconverted analogue which they are currently outputting with the present linecards, the 5X20U BPE - 5 downstreams 20 upstreams on a single card. To support the wideband you would be using a 1Gbps Wideband SPA connected to an external QAM with upstreams coming into a 5X20U. You can see how the upgrade process would work.
This is from a someone who knows a lot more the technical side than I do ;)
Broadbandbug is being accurate on the DOCSIS 3. The Cisco 10ks that are going onto the network are not going on there for any sort of 50M rollout, they are going in purely to relieve black ports. There have been a few 10ks go in, some powered up, some just racked and waiting.
The 10ks are denser, they use less space and power to supply more capacity than the equivalent uBR7246VXR. Endless deployment of the 7246s isn't enough to keep up with capacity demands now, let alone complete the 4Mbit -> 10Mbit uplift.
The 10ks are not going in with the required line cards to do channel bonding initially. Basically to do the channel bonding the kit would go in but output digitally, the RF conversion would be done on QAMs external to the CMTS as it is with TV, where the channels are output digitally and fed to external boxes to be modulated onto an analogue carrer and from there FDM'd onto the forward path matrix.
You would have the Cisco 10k connected to a Scientific Atlanta QAM which would do the RF modulation so what the 10k actually outputs is digital rather than the integrated upconverted analogue which they are currently outputting with the present linecards, the 5X20U BPE - 5 downstreams 20 upstreams on a single card. To support the wideband you would be using a 1Gbps Wideband SPA connected to an external QAM with upstreams coming into a 5X20U. You can see how the upgrade process would work.
thanks BenMcr that correlates with the other 50Mbit thread and the more ports for less money per card, and thats a good thing.
see its easy to take the informed view and keep everyone reading the threads here happy....
thanks again.
now that Bonded modem question ;)
broadbandbug
21-04-2008, 12:16
I mean this as no disrespect to you you I know at least 2 guys personally who know there stuff and there are a few on here that do but my experience of fone calls to tech even before the indian fiasco has not been good and ive ended up tellign them whats wrong.If your not prepared to proove your point as it were how are us lesser mortals to know if your credentials are good or not?
The CPE that will be used when the 50Mb/s product rolls out will not be that which has been used at trial.. The trial has used Wideband DoCSIS with a 3 Channel Bonded Modem as this was the only chipset available at the time.
The full launch will go with a certified (Bronze or Silver) D3.0 Modem from one of its current suppliers.. Remembering that there are only two chipset manufacturers that provide to all modem manufacturers.
---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------
This is from a someone who knows a lot more the technical side than I do ;)
Broadbandbug is being accurate on the DOCSIS 3. The Cisco 10ks that are going onto the network are not going on there for any sort of 50M rollout, they are going in purely to relieve black ports. There have been a few 10ks go in, some powered up, some just racked and waiting.
The 10ks are denser, they use less space and power to supply more capacity than the equivalent uBR7246VXR. Endless deployment of the 7246s isn't enough to keep up with capacity demands now, let alone complete the 4Mbit -> 10Mbit uplift.
The 10ks are not going in with the required line cards to do channel bonding initially. Basically to do the channel bonding the kit would go in but output digitally, the RF conversion would be done on QAMs external to the CMTS as it is with TV, where the channels are output digitally and fed to external boxes to be modulated onto an analogue carrer and from there FDM'd onto the forward path matrix.
You would have the Cisco 10k connected to a Scientific Atlanta QAM which would do the RF modulation so what the 10k actually outputs is digital rather than the integrated upconverted analogue which they are currently outputting with the present linecards, the 5X20U BPE - 5 downstreams 20 upstreams on a single card. To support the wideband you would be using a 1Gbps Wideband SPA connected to an external QAM with upstreams coming into a 5X20U. You can see how the upgrade process would work.
Almost correct.. The Edge QAM will be Harmonic NSG9000 as SA/Cisco don't have a viable product today:)
The CPE that will be used when the 50Mb/s product rolls out will not be that which has been used at trial.. The trial has used Wideband DoCSIS with a 3 Channel Bonded Modem as this was the only chipset available at the time.
The full launch will go with a certified (Bronze or Silver) D3.0 Modem from one of its current suppliers.. Remembering that there are only two chipset manufacturers that provide to all modem manufacturers.
---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------
Almost correct.. The Edge QAM will be Harmonic NSG9000 as SA/Cisco don't have a viable product today:)
thanks broadbandbug, the informed view is always the better Option here rather than the hideing the information under the boardroom table....:angel:
the current lack of much silver (the one that gives you the bonded upstream channels and so faster upload above the single but still improved 2.0B upload channel)is a worry in the longer term, and the fact theres only the two chipsets/SOC (System On a Chip) ,and none of these are FPGA based(re-programed on the fly to add options or fix hardware bugs etc), so cant be easly software upgraded to cure future problems or enhancements for that matter.
pick the wrong one on a tech spec, and your limiting your long term options, but more than that , its always a given the cheaper one will have more problems and thats what the bean counters will most likely make you contract for, especially if its part of the jobs for the corporate US boys club contracting....
thanks again for the tech input and lets have more :p:
The CPE that will be used when the 50Mb/s product rolls out will not be that which has been used at trial.. The trial has used Wideband DoCSIS with a 3 Channel Bonded Modem as this was the only chipset available at the time.
The full launch will go with a certified (Bronze or Silver) D3.0 Modem from one of its current suppliers.. No, it won't. The launch will use pre-DOCSIS3 equipment. This is a matter of public record by the way. DOCSIS3 equipment probably won't be available in any large numbers in this country for at least a year.
VM have stated publicly they will "eventually" use DOCSIS3 equipment, but VM have been reluctant to offer fast upload speeds, so I have some suspicions on that.
AbyssUnderground
21-04-2008, 14:07
VM have stated publicly they will "eventually" use DOCSIS3 equipment, but VM have been reluctant to offer fast upload speeds, so I have some suspicions on that.
They always have, and thats because upstream costs more.
No, it won't. The launch will use pre-DOCSIS3 equipment. This is a matter of public record by the way. DOCSIS3 equipment probably won't be available in any large numbers in this country for at least a year.
VM have stated publicly they will "eventually" use DOCSIS3 equipment, but VM have been reluctant to offer fast upload speeds, so I have some suspicions on that.
well Neptune, you have to give him some wiggle room and a few more posts to modify his view, after all he did go from
"VM are not going pre-DoCSIS 3.0.. They will launch with full 3.0 compliant CPE.. "
after taking the facts as supplyed to him from this very thread #57 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34534011-post57.html) to
"The full launch will go with a certified (Bronze or Silver) D3.0 Modem from one of its current suppliers.. ".
given a few more, and we will have the pre-DOCSIS3 and most likely the Bronze cert'ed kit in there.
does 'VM are going pre-DoCSIS 3.0..They will launch with Bronze 3.0 compliant CPE..to begin with, and have to replace all that kit with at least silver 3.0 compliant CPE..at some point if not full DoCSIS 3.0 compliant CPE.. for any future increase in upload rates above a single None-bonded 2.0b compliant channel' sound about right :angel:
xspeedyx
21-04-2008, 15:22
Reading this thread I have seen a increase in my speed might just be they have made some adjustments just seem strange my speeds have been better on the weekend and then trax annouces this
makes wonder o well yay I have 20Mb
They always have, and thats because upstream costs more.
well , upstream outside the VM core network perhaps yes other than the direct peered 3rd partys BBC etc that cost nothing after the initial kit install and in effect become just an extension of the VM network.
but iv always contended that its feasible to give the VM users covering that 52% plus of the UK, access to the faster upload rates and keep that higher rate inside the internal network.....so not incuring more ongoing data costs.
its been said the problem is at the UBR's, but again, the newest cards that are eventually being installed are apparently able to give far better upload throughput, is that not the case?....
and so there is a potential commercial benefit and a massive PR benefit/new customer benefit, if they were to find an option that works for the internal VM customers and a massive VM customer to VM customer speed advantage.
slowcoach
21-04-2008, 15:35
Not so long ago VM stated that they were going with a pre DOCSIS 3 Arris setup which would allow a simple upgrade to DOCSIS 3 at a later date.
Has this plan changed?
broadbandbug
21-04-2008, 19:11
No, it won't. The launch will use pre-DOCSIS3 equipment. This is a matter of public record by the way. DOCSIS3 equipment probably won't be available in any large numbers in this country for at least a year.
VM have stated publicly they will "eventually" use DOCSIS3 equipment, but VM have been reluctant to offer fast upload speeds, so I have some suspicions on that.
It is only D3.0 Silver that has upstream bonding.. They will not launch with any upstream bonding capability.. But it will be D3.0 Bronze.. Don't believe me.. No bother.. Just wait and see:)
---------- Post added at 19:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------
Not so long ago VM stated that they were going with a pre DOCSIS 3 Arris setup which would allow a simple upgrade to DOCSIS 3 at a later date.
Has this plan changed?
No Arris kit in the network anymore.. They didn't get through the tender process.
---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------
well , upstream outside the VM core network perhaps yes other than the direct peered 3rd partys BBC etc that cost nothing after the initial kit install and in effect become just an extension of the VM network.
but iv always contended that its feasible to give the VM users covering that 52% plus of the UK, access to the faster upload rates and keep that higher rate inside the internal network.....so not incuring more ongoing data costs.
its been said the problem is at the UBR's, but again, the newest cards that are eventually being installed are apparently able to give far better upload throughput, is that not the case?....
and so there is a potential commercial benefit and a massive PR benefit/new customer benefit, if they were to find an option that works for the internal VM customers and a massive VM customer to VM customer speed advantage.
It is nothing to do with bandwidth!
It has to do with the DoCSIS specification and frequency availability in the return path.
VM has varying degrees of capability but most areas can support 4 Upstream Channels, Some can do 6 and a few can do 8.
Each of the Channels can be either QPSK (around 5Mb/s) or QAM16 (around 10Mb/s) (In the future they may support QAM32 or QAM64 but that is some way off)
With DoCSIS 1.0 (What is deployed for 2, 4/10 and 20Mb/s Tiers) the CM can only tune to one of the upstream channels. So the customers that are loaded on a downstream are shared between the 4, 6 or 8 Upstreams.
Therefore in most cases you have 400ish customers shared across 4 upstreams that probably have a combined upstream bandwidth of 20Mb/s (2 x QAM16 and 2 x QPSK- due to noise in that part of the spectrum)
That is why they can not currently offer better downstream.
With DoCSIS 2 there is the capability to support QAM32 Upstream, but the network is too noisy to support but could be done with a load of maintenance etc.
With DoCSIS 3.0 (Silver) we get the capability to bond upstream channels so at this point we may see greater upstream capability.
.....first of all lets be accurate about this, it will be called EuroDOCSIS3. Secondly, I think you are confusing two separate things. Equipment which VM install at their end and equipment in customers homes.
There will be no EuroDOCSIS3 modems in customers homes, probably for years for several reasons. One of which, is they do not exist yet. When and if modems are made in huge numbers (at the end of the year??) it will be US cable cos who get them first as they are competing against the US telcos fibre services.
The equipment being installed by VM is pre-EuroDOCSIS3 equipment which will be software upgradeable to the EuroDOCSIS3 standard if and when required.
When VM launch their 50mb service to customers, it will essentially be a super EuroDOCSIS2 system, for a simple reason. It is (as far recent modems go) the type of modems already installed in customers' homes. You can have wideband (pre-EuroDOCSIS3) equipment at VM's end but they will "feed" customers' EuroDOCSIS2 modems. Obviously, a software upgrade will be required to enable the higher speeds.
As and when, VM decide to install EuroDOCSIS3 modems in customers' homes, this will be when BT and other ISPs roll out fibre.
At the moment, no large UK ISP can compete with VM on speed without massive investment in infrastructure. This subject is of course under hot debate between BT, other ISPs and Ofcom now. VM (who are in huge debts...) are not going to order tens of thousands of modems (which do not exist anyway) when there is no need to. When Bt and other ISPs have their "FibreNet", then EuroDOCSIS3 will be rolled out to customers.
broadbandbug
21-04-2008, 22:44
.....first of all lets be accurate about this, it will be called EuroDOCSIS3. Secondly, I think you are confusing two separate things. Equipment which VM install at their end and equipment in customers homes.
There will be no EuroDOCSIS3 modems in customers homes, probably for years for several reasons. One of which, is they do not exist yet. When and if modems are made in huge numbers (at the end of the year??) it will be US cable cos who get them first as they are competing against the US telcos fibre services.
The equipment being installed by VM is pre-EuroDOCSIS3 equipment which will be software upgradeable to the EuroDOCSIS3 standard if and when required.
When VM launch their 50mb service to customers, it will essentially be a super EuroDOCSIS2 system, for a simple reason. It is (as far recent modems go) the type of modems already installed in customers' homes. You can have wideband (pre-EuroDOCSIS3) equipment at VM's end but they will "feed" customers' EuroDOCSIS2 modems. Obviously, a software upgrade will be required to enable the higher speeds.
As and when, VM decide to install EuroDOCSIS3 modems in customers' homes, this will be when BT and other ISPs roll out fibre.
At the moment, no large UK ISP can compete with VM on speed without massive investment in infrastructure. This subject is of course under hot debate between BT, other ISPs and Ofcom now. VM (who are in huge debts...) are not going to order tens of thousands of modems (which do not exist anyway) when there is no need to. When Bt and other ISPs have their "FibreNet", then EuroDOCSIS3 will be rolled out to customers.
Rubbish, Rubbish and more Rubbish... There will be EuroDoCSIS 3.0 Modems available to VM this year in time for launch..
US Cable Co's are DoCSIS Networks not Euro.. So why would they have EDoCSIS ChipSets?
VM are going to rollout new Modems with 4 Tuners as part of 50Mb/s.. There is not a 4 Tuner Wideband Modem only a true 3.0 Chipset.
Where do you trawl up your info from:rolleyes:
And based a question I asked today, I can back that up.
Definately planned for Full EuroDoCSIS 3 at launch
was there any results posted after the Kent trial ?
would be nice to see the numbers :D
Rubbish, Rubbish and more Rubbish... There will be EuroDoCSIS 3.0 Modems available to VM this year in time for launch..
US Cable Co's are DoCSIS Networks not Euro.. So why would they have EDoCSIS ChipSets?Never said they would. The modems would be tailor made with euro chipsets in.
At least you're calling it EuroDOCSIS3 now.:)
---------- Post added at 01:22 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------
And based a question I asked today, I can back that up.
Definitely planned for Full EuroDoCSIS 3 at launchThat contradicts what your CEO said to city analysts only a couple of months ago. Unless....
Either 50mb will launch this year with pre-EuroDOCSIS3 equipment, as stated by VM. Or, a "real" full EuroDOCSIS3 launch doesn't actually happen to next year. Perhaps VM may "launch" into a couple of other areas by the end of this year using pre equipment, but tell the media its a full launch.
I would love to see how large numbers of non-existent EuroDOCSIS3 modems suddenly appear in a few months time when the DOCSIS3 standard has only just been agreed. I'll reckon it'll be 18 months before anyone has this gear.
Never said they would. The modems would be tailor made with euro chipsets in.
At least you're calling it EuroDOCSIS3 now:)
---------- Post added at 01:22 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------
That contradicts what your CEO said to city analysts only a couple of months ago. Unless....
Either 50mb will launch this year with pre-EuroDOCSIS3 equipment, as stated by VM. Or, a "real" full EuroDOCSIS3 launch doesn't actually happen to next year. Perhaps VM may "launch" into other areas by the end of the using pre equipment, but tell the media its a full launch.
I would love to see how large numbers of non-existent EuroDOCSIS3 modems suddenly appear in a few months time when the DOCSIS3 standard has only just been agreed. I'll reckon it'll be 18 months before anyone has this gear.
You really DONT listen do you??
There ARE ALREADY (EURO)DOCSIS3 modems around, god where do u bury your head???
I suggest you research this matter BEFORE posting total rubbish and then daring to correct people when THEY have MORE information than YOURSELF.
The new Docsis3 modems might not be ready just yet for use, but they DO already exist and they are testing them, where do you think they are getting bronze, silver & gold classifications from????
broadbandbug
22-04-2008, 11:55
Never said they would. The modems would be tailor made with euro chipsets in.
At least you're calling it EuroDOCSIS3 now.:)
---------- Post added at 01:22 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------
That contradicts what your CEO said to city analysts only a couple of months ago. Unless....
Either 50mb will launch this year with pre-EuroDOCSIS3 equipment, as stated by VM. Or, a "real" full EuroDOCSIS3 launch doesn't actually happen to next year. Perhaps VM may "launch" into a couple of other areas by the end of this year using pre equipment, but tell the media its a full launch.
I would love to see how large numbers of non-existent EuroDOCSIS3 modems suddenly appear in a few months time when the DOCSIS3 standard has only just been agreed. I'll reckon it'll be 18 months before anyone has this gear.
My CEO:confused: My CEO is based in the US (I don't work for VM:erm:)
The 'gear' has been produced using non certified chipsets with firmware that is pre 3.0 (sort of like pre 802.11N). However the CM manufacturers have since passed the 3.0 certification process and have kit in production.
UPC in Holland will be first to launch a product with 3.0 Modems any time now.. VM will follow later this year.
Your reckoning on when the equipment will be in full production is incorrect.. Just ask my CEO:p:
After lots of no they're not, yes they are's, the real answer to the question is sometime this year..which is nothing we haven't heard for months, from the VM webcast last year and numerous posts on here.
Somehow I doubt it'll even hit before Christmas for the majority of users, I'm not an employee or a relative of an employee or in cahoots with the bloke down the pub or even the CEO's cleaner so my guess is about as useful as all the rest in this thread.
Chrysalis
23-04-2008, 13:56
To be fair CS didnt seem to know my sisters street had broadband.
VM upgraded the cables to support broadband (still analogue tv tho) (my areas still has no schedule), and in the end we got someone to visit and check to verify its connectable, we knew as (a) VM were doing the work and (b) neighbour across the road is connected now.
---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------
From what I have heard in the financial news, VMs 50mbit launch has been dumbed down which adds credence to what traxdata is saying, they are saying in those channels that docsis3 will not be fully rolled out as planned at launch and 50mbit will also only be a limited rollout during 2008. I dont know the reasons but in all likelyhood its due to money and VM not having enough of it.
And based a question I asked today, I can back that up.
Definately planned for Full EuroDoCSIS 3 at launch
careful there Ben, we dont want yet another PR/sales porky like the "Mpeg4" were infact its "Mpeg4-part10", AVC (Advanced Video Codec), or H.264.
and the so called original "Mpeg4" was infact the first DivX/Xvid/Mpeg4-part2 and thats not a professional standard as you might know,
with this Docsis2.0b/3.0.
"full" Euro-docsis3.0 is exactly that, as in fully Certified to the Docsis3.0 Official Spec (with the Euro spectrum tweaks to get more throughput for a given spectrum).
the Bronze Certified(the minimum 4 bonded downstreams and Multicast all the way to and from the end users CPE etc).
and the Silver Certified ( the minimum 4 Bonded Upstreams, Qos Multicast etc) are officially pre-docsis3.0 or 2.0b based if you prefer (the B is important here remember as its the improved version that all the bonding of 3.0 takes place upon)
the new PR/sales people are now wrongly calling this "wideband" just to make matters even more complicated.
but the simple option is "pre"-Docsis3 for Bronze and silver, and "Full" for full docsis3....(its got everything implimented and certifyed as per the spec)
Okies I appreciate that.
I only relayed what I got told that is was a full 3.0 launch no 'pre' anything
sure, glad to help , thats what we do here right!, now that you know the facts you can help educate the people inside that dont know it yet, and good for you, im always glad to give credit were its due...
---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:20 ----------
and you can start using AVC in place of "Mpeg4" in all your 'theres a new VM AVC STB' posts now its clear too ;)
broadbandbug
24-04-2008, 14:28
sure, glad to help , thats what we do here right!, now that you know the facts you can help educate the people inside that dont know it yet, and good for you, im always glad to give credit were its due...
---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:20 ----------
and you can start using AVC in place of "Mpeg4" in all your 'theres a new VM AVC STB' posts now its clear too ;)
The added complication is that people call Wideband DoCSIS (3 Tuner Modem, proprietary solutions from the likes of Arris, Moto, Cisco etc ) pre-DoCSIS 3.0:D
Christ this reminds me of all the caffuffle with the old telephone modem when it was between the K Flex technology and X2 technology before the final V90 standard was ratified for the 56k modems. All fun and games. :p
Christ this reminds me of all the caffuffle with the old telephone modem when it was between the K Flex technology and X2 technology before the final V90 standard was ratified for the 56k modems. All fun and games. :p
the difference being OC, that if you had the right CPE such as the USR stortster flash, you had the option to Software re-flash a new Certifyed firmware to bring it upto the latest Official spec.
in the case of the Bronze and Silver Pre-D3, it doest seem like several of the current crop of CPE going through Docsis certification are even able to be re-flashed in the area's required.
some infact, not even having all the required hardware onboard as standard to bring them into "Silver" never mind "full" complience later, and so will require total replacement with a later model even in the short term.
surely thats got to be taken into consideration even by the penny pinchers in the VM acquisitions departments thinking in the 3 months balance sheets mode.
---------- Post added at 08:07 ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 ----------
and again this limited viewpoint missed the real point, that being, cable has a massive potential upload advantage but they wont use it as it costs..., and more to the point, as it takes away from the shareholders pot, and forces them to give it back to the Network Re-investment pot we are all already paying into.
the old if someone else does it, we will massively increase the upload speeds, but not until somone else does it first.
rather than the we can up it now and use simple, cheap and effective word of mouth advertising to massively increase our customer base and virtical profit intake.
and that tired old "Most of the demands are for download speeds" line just doesnt match up with the real facts.
anyone remotely tech already knows they have to give 5Mbit Upload rates just to effectivly use the 50Mbit download channel to its full potential, and we know the demand for increased upload rates is already there, as we are constantly asking for it, and we are waiting for it...
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/?p=4583
DOCSIS 3 rollout should be business case
April 24, 2008 – 09:14 BST
By Julian Clover
...
“We’re not under pressure to introduce 100 or 200 quickly, but we want to be the leader in value for money,” added UPC’s Manuel Kohnstamm, VP, Cable Europe.
....
“DOCSIS 3 is something of a journey and a complex process, said Malcolm Taylor, managing director, EuroCableLabs. “Most of the demands are for download speeds and I think people want to introduce on a step by step basis because those headline speeds have an impact right through the network.”
What a pleasant thread. Not. All I can say, and anyone who knows me knows I should know the things I know, is that broadbandbug's information is more accurate than TraxData's, sufficient for me to wonder if I know him.
There. Bite me.
Again, I'd like to also warn people about the authenticity of what TraxData says.
I'd watch out... I get red carded for questioning him :angel:
xspeedyx
28-04-2008, 16:08
I am seeing VM actually making this 50MB rollout the real deal as this could help them get back some money they have lost
Oddly enough, I see it not as a money spinner (although shifting the 20Mb guys to the new kit where possible might be, since it keeps high paying customers happier and reduces network load that tarnishes the experience for everyone) but more of a 'hey look what we can do, up yours ADSL' idea. The top tiers are never where the money is in broadband, but if you can get the glitz to rub on on the service that the bread-and-butter M and L guys get, you'll hopefully keep them loyal, which is a key part of the battle we're in.
In much the same way, Virgin Galactic's image rubs off a bit onto Virgin Atlantic.
Mind you, billing them correctly and sorting out their problems in an efficient manner won't be money wasted, for that matter. Call me old-fashioned.
broadbandbug
28-04-2008, 17:13
Oddly enough, I see it not as a money spinner (although shifting the 20Mb guys to the new kit where possible might be, since it keeps high paying customers happier and reduces network load that tarnishes the experience for everyone) but more of a 'hey look what we can do, up yours ADSL' idea. The top tiers are never where the money is in broadband, but if you can get the glitz to rub on on the service that the bread-and-butter M and L guys get, you'll hopefully keep them loyal, which is a key part of the battle we're in.
In much the same way, Virgin Galactic's image rubs off a bit onto Virgin Atlantic.
Mind you, billing them correctly and sorting out their problems in an efficient manner won't be money wasted, for that matter. Call me old-fashioned.
I agree with you that it can (and will) make the 20Mb/s Tier more stable and provide a fair amount of 'burst headroom' for the L & M Tiers left on the DoCSIS 1 Platform.
Also agree with the 50Mb/s comments (for now), in my mind there will be a raft of new 'services' to take advantage of the added capability of 50Mb/s Downstream. i.e. HD Video Multicast etc that will be value add for those that want to reach deeper into their pockets.. But at the end of the day it is the 2.5 Million 2Mb/s customers that actually pull the revenue through the door
Is this the new modem? (http://europeasia.ambitbroadband.com/website/product_D.aspx?GC=000600010003)
or this one? (http://business.motorola.com/ultrabroadbandsolutions/pdf/SURFboard_SB6120_Fact%20Sheet_fact%20sheet.pdf)
The latter can do 195Mbps in EuroDOCSIS 3
If it is the Ambit one I'm a bit disappointed. I thought it would look different than the 2.0 one lol
Oddly enough, I see it not as a money spinner (although shifting the 20Mb guys to the new kit where possible might be, since it keeps high paying customers happier and reduces network load that tarnishes the experience for everyone) but more of a 'hey look what we can do, up yours ADSL' idea. The top tiers are never where the money is in broadband, but if you can get the glitz to rub on on the service that the bread-and-butter M and L guys get, you'll hopefully keep them loyal, which is a key part of the battle we're in.
In much the same way, Virgin Galactic's image rubs off a bit onto Virgin Atlantic.
Mind you, billing them correctly and sorting out their problems in an efficient manner won't be money wasted, for that matter. Call me old-fashioned.
The trouble is that Virgin seem to court good publicity. Well, they try to, anyway. Billing people correctly and sorting out problems efficiently doesn't get headlines and any real improvement isn't something they can boast about, as it would be an admission they had problems before.
Rolling out 50 meg (even if large parts of the network aren't ready) will get those headlines, as no other residential broadband supplier can supply speeds that fast.
broadbandbug
28-04-2008, 18:53
The trouble is that Virgin seem to court good publicity. Well, they try to, anyway. Billing people correctly and sorting out problems efficiently doesn't get headlines and any real improvement isn't something they can boast about, as it would be an admission they had problems before.
Rolling out 50 meg (even if large parts of the network aren't ready) will get those headlines, as no other residential broadband supplier can supply speeds that fast.
They are not allowed to 'court the headlines' with 50Mb/s until it is available to the majority of the customer base;)
interesting details about the EU cable growth, and how most but VM UK did well, even the irish chorus cable bettered VM even though its using the old sold ex-(pre-)VM infrastructure...
infact the official PDF data seems to indicate that both TV and phone are growth area's even though VOD and tv are somewhat limited for fast content acquisition turn around.
were does that leave Neil's (HD!) VOD policy,the current other half of the great VM Broadband profitability comback ?
http://www.cableeurope.eu/uploads/documents/pub-72_en-080423_cablecongress_presspresentation.pdf
Development of new content services is hindered by current
copyright clearance system/B]
�� system does not respond to needs of VOD and new digital TV services
http://www.digitaltvnews.net/content/?p=2974
on that VOD/TV Content note theres also this
http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=60548&d=258&h=262&f=3
"
[B]Virgin Media TV appoints MG OMD and Goodstuff
28-Apr-08
.
http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/download/8959/vmtv-ad.jpgVirgin Media TV has appointed Manning Gottlieb OMD and Goodstuff to handle its £5m media planning and buying business. It was previously handled by PHD Rocket, which pulled out of the pitch.
The agencies pitched against Carat, Starcom and Mediaedge:cia to win the account. It was handled by Billetts. The account now will be split with Goodstuff handling the TV planning and MG OMD looking after the buying.
The pair will now work across the company’s portfolio of seven channels, including Virgin 1, Living, Bravo, Challenge and Trouble. A bulk of the media budget is split between Virgin 1 and Living."
why would a company get the contract and then pull out long before its contract term finished?
http://www.brandrepublic.com/News/805174/Virgin-Media-TV-picks-Goodstuff-MG-OMD/
"....
The business covers planning and buying across Virgin's seven channels
including Virgin 1, Living, Bravo, Challenge and Trouble.
The review, called last February, was run by Billetts.
"
when you collate all the data so far regarding Neil's grand 2 tear plan, does it seem logical for your VOD/TV content 3rd party contractor to pull out, oi find it rather odd..., money flow or the lack of it, seems to be the only obvious factor there.
it makes me wonder how is the Docsis 50Mbit 3rd party contracting going if that too was effected by money flow!
---------- Post added at 00:28 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------
They are not allowed to 'court the headlines' with 50Mb/s until it is available to the majority of the customer base;)
that might be the case in the US BBG, but it happens that VM have been advertising the 50Mbit up and coming service for a very long time now ,far to long infact, some might say.
did it really have to be that big?
If it is the Ambit one I'm a bit disappointed. I thought it would look different than the 2.0 one lol
i supose its all down to VMs contracts and supply chain Ben, given theres no data on the D3 as yet on that page,
it did strike me as interesting theres also several existing "Ambit's Wireless Cable Modem Router combines a robust cable modem with the freedom of wireless." in both 11g and 11n format.
id imagine the Ambit D3 models could, infact probably would also come in such a wireless 11n router format (with 4 intigrated cheap RTL chip 1gig rj45 ports hopefully).
http://europeasia.ambitbroadband.com/website/product.aspx?pk=0006
its a shame we probably wont get to use them if they do or will exist soon, as the VM supply chain management policy seems to always go for the cheapest off the shelf item going at any given time.
do you know if they might source and at least beta trial such kit on a large scale ?.
Chrysalis
29-04-2008, 19:38
Oddly enough, I see it not as a money spinner (although shifting the 20Mb guys to the new kit where possible might be, since it keeps high paying customers happier and reduces network load that tarnishes the experience for everyone) but more of a 'hey look what we can do, up yours ADSL' idea. The top tiers are never where the money is in broadband, but if you can get the glitz to rub on on the service that the bread-and-butter M and L guys get, you'll hopefully keep them loyal, which is a key part of the battle we're in.
In much the same way, Virgin Galactic's image rubs off a bit onto Virgin Atlantic.
Mind you, billing them correctly and sorting out their problems in an efficient manner won't be money wasted, for that matter. Call me old-fashioned.
Too true, the high speeds are all about headlines.
only 25% of adsl1 customers can get a 8meg synch, it will be a very low % single figures on adsl2+ but BT etc. wont care as 24mbit will be the headline speed which beats cables current 20meg.
Of course cable then retalliate with their 50meg. The next move will either be vdsl2 of BT to match 50meg but would require FTTC. or a 100meg over FTTH both years away. So cable will have the lead for a while now.
hokkers999
30-04-2008, 02:06
Too true, the high speeds are all about headlines.
only 25% of adsl1 customers can get a 8meg synch, it will be a very low % single figures on adsl2+ but BT etc. wont care as 24mbit will be the headline speed which beats cables current 20meg.
Of course cable then retalliate with their 50meg. The next move will either be vdsl2 of BT to match 50meg but would require FTTC. or a 100meg over FTTH both years away. So cable will have the lead for a while now.
But would you rather have 50meg for 10 minutes then be choked right back for the rest of them time - STM hours are continually increasing - or say 8meg adsl2 that just stays that way with no stm?
But would you rather have 50meg for 10 minutes then be choked right back for the rest of them time - STM hours are continually increasing - or say 8meg adsl2 that just stays that way with no stm?
Well I certainly know what I'd prefer but Chrysalis is absolutely right-it's all about marketing and what most people perceive is the better option.
We who regularly read and contribute to these forums are a small minority. I'd guess that the vast majority of broadband users (not just VM) have no idea what speed they are actually getting and are hardly ever affected by caps or limits so it simply isn't an issue. Similarly I expect the majority of VM users (as VM themselves claim) just use the internet for a bit of web browsing, email etc. and never hit the STM limits. Video streaming and other high bandwidth usages are very much a minority activity (but growing thanks to the BBC iPlayer et. al. hence the ISPs wanting the BBC to help fund improvements in the infrastructure).
So for the average 'punter' who sees two competing ISPs; one offering a stable and guaranteed 8 Meg (say) with no download limits or throttling and the second (maybe with a cheaper headline price) offering upto 24 or 50 Meg with no download limit (which VM claim and it is technically correct even though with STM it is stretching the truth); who are they going to sign up with? No contest really is it!
I'm still waiting till they roll out a decent 20meg service............
Chrysalis
30-04-2008, 14:41
But would you rather have 50meg for 10 minutes then be choked right back for the rest of them time - STM hours are continually increasing - or say 8meg adsl2 that just stays that way with no stm?
Getting it for 10 minutes is better than not getting it at all.
BTs 21CN is going to price 24mbit adsl2+ the same as adsl 8mbit, there is probably going to be a load of super cheap adsl2+ deals post 21CN, so on top of throttling etc. (which does exist in the adsl world) there will be users who eg. pay for 24mbit but can only burst to eg. 2mbit due to line quality. So when you think of it that way cable is most defenitly better.
---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:39 ----------
It is interesting that the advertising rules are different for broadband than other things. APR rates for loans etc. the rate they put as typical has to apply to a majority of customers, whilst broadband advertisers can get away with quoting what applies to a minority of customers.
Too true, the high speeds are all about headlines.
only 25% of adsl1 customers can get a 8meg synch, it will be a very low % single figures on adsl2+ but BT etc. wont care as 24mbit will be the headline speed which beats cables current 20meg.
Of course cable then retalliate with their 50meg. The next move will either be vdsl2 of BT to match 50meg but would require FTTC. or a 100meg over FTTH both years away. So cable will have the lead for a while now.
im just reading up on the proposed
Business Access over Twisted Copper using
IEEE 802.3ah Native Ethernet
it's interesting , not least in its ability to autoconfigure or for your MS centric reader plug-and-play, bonding.
http://downloads.lightreading.com/wplib/alcatellucent/BusinessAccessoverTwistedCopper_wp.pdf
OC its not just the *DSL companys domain, its also quite possible to use this IEEE 802.3ah Native Ethernet over such as the spare wires inside the ex-pre-VM telephone cable,Nynex/C&W used really high grade multicore Twisted pair on the phonelines thats just sat there almost unused.
"
The resiliency of 802.3ah loop aggregation can satisfy the most demanding business customers and support any application.
When a pair fails, that pair is detected and removed from the aggregate
in just a few milliseconds. Established Voice-over-IP calls remain operational, and the callers don’t even notice that a problem has occurred. Video streams continue to play as if nothing has changed.
Applications, and their users are unable to detect that one of the pairs has failed, except by the loss of some bandwidth. And when that pair comes back online, it is seamlessly added to the aggregate.
That again goes unnoticed by the applications and users. This makes IEEE 802.3ah the most suitable technology for the business services of today and tomorrow, where unreliable, best-effort
delivery is simply not enough.
"
I am a bit miffed at STM, but I still love my 20mbit connection. Mind you I am a bit of a night owl and download a fair bit at night so STM doesn't really hurt me. I do hope that once DOCSIS 3 is fully rolled out and VM get a bit more money that the start to go easy on STM.
xspeedyx
30-04-2008, 20:03
I can wait for the 50MB downloaders heaven lol as it stand I think 50Mb will not have any stm due to the way docsis 3.0 works
TraxData
30-04-2008, 20:04
I can wait for the 50MB downloaders heaven lol as it stand I think 50Mb will not have any stm due to the way docsis 3.0 works
Even without STM with only 1.5mbit upload its still not worth 50/month.
xspeedyx
30-04-2008, 20:16
O yeah its shocking VM need to increase the upload I wonder what the upload would be if they released 100meg prob be a 2 or 3 meg upload
TraxData
30-04-2008, 20:21
O yeah its shocking VM need to increase the upload I wonder what the upload would be if they released 100meg prob be a 2 or 3 meg upload
Maybe they'll give us around 5mbit up when they start doing 1GBit connections.
Angry@VMedia
30-04-2008, 22:11
Maybe they'll give us around 5mbit up when they start doing 1GBit connections.
Do you think that they will last long enough as a business and a company to completely do the 50Mbits? from what I have seen over the years i highly doubt it
xspeedyx
30-04-2008, 22:32
Do you think that they will last long enough as a business and a company to completely do the 50Mbits? from what I have seen over the years i highly doubt it
I hope or I am out of a job 50Mb is gonna be a make or break product for virgin and I really hope they dont **** it up
Mick Fisher
02-05-2008, 00:20
I hope or I am out of a job 50Mb is gonna be a make or break product for virgin and I really hope they dont **** it up
If that really is the case then I should start looking right now.
STM, even more expense and the rediculously low upload rate make the 50meg tier a non-starter IMO.
And with their current packet shaping their is no point they will still cap down anyone who actually USES the broadband for more than Email to silly slow speeds, their upload is pathetic and overall for the price it is not worth it.
WOW!, I have 50Mb this morning..............................oops, I must have drank more than I thought last night. It is only 50Kb :)
Setch
GreyWolf
05-05-2008, 09:08
I agree with the majority...If VM want to become/stay No.1 in the broadband market, then they need to abolish STM and increase the upload to a minimum of 5mbit - 10mbit would be preferable, especially for the £47 asking price...
Robertus
05-05-2008, 13:58
1) I don't give a toss about uploads, 1.5mb will be fine for me
2) They don't packet shape (AndrewJ)
3) I can live with the current STM, but I'd struggle with the new one :(
My connection has always been fairly reliable. I'm hoping the new 50mb will be just as good, I'll probably be going for it.
robertus, you dont seem to realise that to fully maximise a 50Mbit download speed you NEED a 5Mbit upload rate ratio.
the proposed 1.5Mbit is not enough for the return path acknowledgements that a fully used 50Mbit download will generate.
robertus, you dont seem to realise that to fully maximise a 50Mbit download speed you NEED a 5Mbit upload rate ratio.
the proposed 1.5Mbit is not enough for the return path acknowledgements that a fully used 50Mbit download will generate.
Yes it is... Transferring across my home LAN, ACK packets add upto 2.6ish Mbps when transferring at around 75Mbps.
TraxData
05-05-2008, 17:00
Yes it is... Transferring across my home LAN, ACK packets add upto 2.6ish Mbps when transferring at around 75Mbps.
A minimum of 1.5mbit upload is needed to fully max out a 50mbit download, you need to include overheads and so fourth.
The problem with that is, if your downloading and maxing your speed out, your browsing will be crippled.
As popper has said around 5mbit is needed to be able to use the connection for multiple tasks.
a BOTE calc from your supplyed No.s indicate that infact a consistant absolute minimum 1.733 Mbit upload rate is required for the 50Mbit to be fully utilised.
as i said, 1.5Mbit upload rate isnt enough...:angel: ,call it a full 250 Kbit short after overheads, at least...
OC if you want to help them justify keeping the lower upload rate ration for the highest price, you can be sure they will do it being VM after all:erm:
they already have the UKs worst ration after all, weras they could massively profit from good PR if they moved that ratio fact to the other extream....
and as TD and others elsewere have said, thats not even allowing for browseing or uploading files were ever while maxing the 50Mbit download rate.
and forget gaming pings or hosting games for your mates etc at the same time,that will also slow or degrade your 50 Mbit download abilitys.
more upload rate is always a good thing, even if you think you dont care about uploading...
Robertus
05-05-2008, 17:41
I don't actually upload when I'm downloading (in the true sense e.g. uploading on a torrent).
So that's no big deal for me.
I don't host games for my mates, we use dedicated servers...oh and if I'm going to be hosting then I ain't exactly going to download.
I don't actually upload when I'm downloading (in the true sense e.g. uploading on a torrent).
So that's no big deal for me.
I don't host games for my mates, we use dedicated servers...oh and if I'm going to be hosting then I ain't exactly going to download.
yes Robertus, but i hope iv made it clear, and you do now realise that for every single download packet you get ,you also need to send those return path acknowledgements ?
and as explained above, your never going to get the full use of the 50Mbit download rate as there isnt enough upload bandwidth to do that at the proposed 1.5Mbit rate?....
upload in the "true sense" as you put it, is nothing to do with torrents,ftp etc in this case.
its all to do with having enough upload space and a good extra overhead for the ACK packets to pass unhindered so as to use the download rates as supplyed and payed for... without stalling the connection, and so never a possibility of reaching the top speeds .
its all about the ratio, and 50Mbit to 1.5Mbit ratio is not enough even on paper, never mind the real world overheads of docsis3 ,tcp/ip etc.
Whether you're uploading on P2P is irrelevant. When downloading from *any* TCP source (not UDP) your computer will send acknowledgment packets back to the source server, essentially saying "I've got that packet of data, send me the next one".
1.5Mb up is not enough to support 50Mb down. You will max out your upstream bandwidth before you get to 50Mb down, so the 50Mb connection is meaningless; in all likelihood you'll never achieve it.
Ed.
a BOTE calc from your supplyed No.s indicate that infact a consistant 1.733 Mbit upload rate is required for the 50Mbit to be fully utilised.
as i said, 1.5Mbit upload rate isnt enough...:angel: ,call it a full 250 Kbit short after overheads, at least...
OC if you want to help them justify keeping the lower upload rate ration for the highest price, you can be sure they will do it being VM after all:erm:
they already have the UKs worst ration after all, weras they could massively profit from good PR if they moved that ratio fact to the other extream....
and as TD and others elsewere have said, thats not even allowing for browseing or uploading files were ever while maxing the 50Mbit download rate.
and forget gaming pings or hosting games for your mates etc at the same time,that will also slow or degrade your 50 Mbit download abilitys.
more upload rate is always a good thing, even if you think you dont care about uploading...
So you're saying anything upto about 43.278Mb will be fine, anything more and the connection stalls. That's a whole 7Mb short...
yeah, you see the point :angel:
people just dont realise that they need the upload rates because they are uploading even when they think their not.
hopefully Robertus and the other readers now realise how it works, and will also push for some extra overhead in the upload rates at least.
kirk1690
05-05-2008, 18:06
they can stick it where the sun dont shine !!!
yeah, you see the point :angel:
Interesting, thanks!
Wish i could get above 18Mb here, someone i know is moving into a house with 100Mb.
can you imagine the VM advertising upto 43.278Mb though, it doesnt grab you as it might ;)
just get yourself a few 11n routers and directional arials facing each other and share that bandwidth.
and later work on the bonding side for the wireless LAN part....
theres still a need for a simple layman's cheap way to do that ATM OC.
can you imagine the VM advertising upto 43.278Mb though, it doesnt grab you as it might ;)
But if they marketed it as 40Mb and then delivered *more* than the stated maximum then that might do their (currently poor) image a bit of good!
Ed.
Is the 1.5mbit upload rate set in stone? Or is the final upload rate still to be confirmed. For those that are in the know about the rate has it actually been finally decided what it is? I am not asking what it is, just asking if a final decision has been taken yet?
Robertus
05-05-2008, 21:27
I do realise your point popper...but isn't it the same with 20mb (on a different scale)?
Upstream bandwidth required for ACK is proportional to the downstream bandwidth.
The ratio between 50Mb and 1.5Mb is 33:1. The ratio between 20Mb and 768Kb is 26.7:1. The lower the ratio the better.
The upstream for the 20Mb line is a bit measly, but it's better than the proposed 50Mb ratios.
Ed.
slowcoach
05-05-2008, 22:54
I do realise your point popper...but isn't it the same with 20mb (on a different scale)?
When I am downloading with 10 connections at full whack browsing is only marginally slower. All thanks to the recent network upgrades. ;)
I do realise your point popper...but isn't it the same with 20mb (on a different scale)?
thats the thing though, many people think they get it but infact they dont, and thats understandable, if you dont have a reference point to base the up/down ratio on its easy to assume the above is the same, its not.
a "good ratio" in this case means it wont usually stall the download connection , not the more general "good ratio" as in, as close as 1 to 1/synchronous as you can get.
if the set ratio indicates your upload is below the right point, your connection will stall before you reach the top download rate, hence a "bad ratio".
if the set ratio indicates your upload is above the right point, your connection will Not stall before you reach the top download rate, hence a "good ratio".
as our reference point we take Druchii's Ethernet LAN speed as the average to do our rough calcs.
in effect Druchii is utilising only ;) 28.846Mbit in upload ACK packets for his 75Mbit download, well within the Ethernet tcp/ip (100Mbit ethernet i assume) speed safe/good 1to1 ration, and so way above the point of a potentially stalled connection, hence a really "good ratio" the best you an get infact being synchronous.
its already been pointed out that the ration for 50Mbit/s with the 1.5Mbit/s ration is a "Bad ratio" as it needs a bare minimum of 1.733Mbit.
the 20Mbit needs a bare minimum of 693Kbit/s ,so at 768Kbit/s it's in the "good ratio" column.
the 10Mbit needs a bare minimum of 346Kbit/s ,so at 512Kbit/s it's in the "good ratio" column.
the 4Mbit needs a bare minimum of 138Kbit/s ,so at 400Kbit/s it's in the "good ration" column.
OC these are rough calcs and are the bare minimum to max out your download rate, as i said, the higher the upload rate the far better it is....
the best OC being the same speed up as down, a one to one ratio or synchronous, whatever that payed for speed rate is.
the US are selling these now, we generally dont see it in the Uk anymore, but we may once Wimax takes off such as the package being sold in west manchester for instance.
Robertus
06-05-2008, 09:27
Am I right in saying that 1.5mbit has been confirmed for 50mb?
Angry@VMedia
06-05-2008, 10:42
Am I right in saying that 1.5mbit has been confirmed for 50mb?
Do you not READ the posts here or what?
he proposed 1.5Mbit rate
Robertus
06-05-2008, 10:52
Do you not READ the posts here or what?
Look pal, take your attitude elsewhere.
the 20Mbit needs a bare minimum of 693Kbit/s ,so at 768Kbit/s it's in the "good ratio" column.
when i've been downloading at a constant 20meg i've only seen my upload at about 500k max
Angry@VMedia
06-05-2008, 11:14
Look pal, take your attitude elsewhere.
Dont you DARE try having a go at me, I'll report you to the staff without a second thought, so YOU lose YOUR attitude, I was just simply saying, if you dont / cant be bothered to read the WHOLE thread, DONT post stupid questions, it IS in the rules after all, or did you not read that either?
I am prepaired to leave it there in the interest of the other members of this forum, and no more will be said at the moment.
To the other members that read this thread, I am sorry for the interruption! :)
MovedGoalPosts
06-05-2008, 11:25
Children, play nice, not flaming or insults or face the wrath of the mods.
Children, play nice, not flaming or insults or face the wrath of the mods.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/32.png (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.richardsaare.com/images/god_lightning_right.png&imgrefurl=http://www.richardsaare.com/about.html&h=672&w=750&sz=291&hl=en&start=3&sig2=qcoUj27yO82K0c41QiP_Qw&tbnid=KDrZ5UFXv8QOTM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=141&ei=b0cgSOecKJvmwgHuzZ3lCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgod%2Bcasting%2Blightning%26gbv%3D2%2 6hl%3Den)
Children, play nice, not flaming or insults or face the wrath of the mods.
:clap:
Or Duchie's Knife ;)
xspeedyx
06-05-2008, 16:12
People and there power trips lol sorry mods
It's all garlic bread and cucumbers :D
broadbandbug
06-05-2008, 18:56
yes Robertus, but i hope iv made it clear, and you do now realise that for every single download packet you get ,you also need to send those return path acknowledgements ?
and as explained above, your never going to get the full use of the 50Mbit download rate as there isnt enough upload bandwidth to do that at the proposed 1.5Mbit rate?....
upload in the "true sense" as you put it, is nothing to do with torrents,ftp etc in this case.
its all to do with having enough upload space and a good extra overhead for the ACK packets to pass unhindered so as to use the download rates as supplyed and payed for... without stalling the connection, and so never a possibility of reaching the top speeds .
its all about the ratio, and 50Mbit to 1.5Mbit ratio is not enough even on paper, never mind the real world overheads of docsis3 ,tcp/ip etc.
The Ashford 50Mb/s Trialists are getting the full 50Mb/s Download with 1.5Mb/s Upload? I read it on their user forum:)
TraxData
06-05-2008, 19:27
The Ashford 50Mb/s Trialists are getting the full 50Mb/s Download with 1.5Mb/s Upload? I read it on their user forum:)
Physically impossible.
I've also read those forums...everyone averages 40-46mbit...none are spot on 50.
Again...with that...if you max the download speed out...browsing will turn to crap..and your connection is crippled.
Edit, seeing as you have access to the forum... i imagine you have seen the threads on there about the crap upload speeds/unfair ratio ;)
DocDutch
06-05-2008, 19:51
:clap:
Or Dutchie's Knife ;)
nahhh thats only reserved for [NTHW]Kanonfodda
Robbie G
06-05-2008, 19:52
Dont you DARE try having a go at me, I'll report you to the staff without a second thought, so YOU lose YOUR attitude, I was just simply saying, if you dont / cant be bothered to read the WHOLE thread, DONT post stupid questions, it IS in the rules after all, or did you not read that either?
I am prepaired to leave it there in the interest of the other members of this forum, and no more will be said at the moment.
Lol, get over yourself :dozey:.
Lol, get over yourself :dozey:.
May i refer you to:
Children, play nice, not flaming or insults or face the wrath of the mods.
40mbit will still be agreat product compared to ADSL. I just hope that the STM would not be the same as 20mbit. What month is the first 50mbit connections rumored to rollout?
xspeedyx
07-05-2008, 15:41
no month has been offically confirmed but I would say october or nov
no month has been offically confirmed but I would say october or nov
Am I right in understanding that, initially, 50Mb/s connections will still share the current DOCSIS1 bandwidth and will be 'switched over' to DOCSIS3 at a later date?
And that this should free up some bandwidth for the lower speed connections?
If that's anywhere near correct, any idea when the DOCSIS3 'switch' might happen?
NO, you thinking of the 20 Mbit sharing the new Docsis3 bandwidth kit.
it is assumed that the 20 Mbit packages will move over there after they have fully rolled out the 50Mbit, or at least a good part of that service kit.
Cheers, popper.
Thanks for explaining!
:tu:
This place is a goldmine for finding stuff out. Thanks to all for the information. :-)
Thought I would pass this on to you guys from an email.
This is correct; you will be migrated to the wideband for no extra charge.
From: AndrewJ
To: Berkett, Neil
Sent: Tue May 06 21:16:45 2008
Subject: Re: State Of The Network
Thank you for your reply.
I shall be more clear.
I share and download at least 4-6GB per day through the stbc network, this is legal file's of which I am happy to provide to VM if asked. The current restraints of slower speeds once you pass a set bandwidth are tad restrictive, however after a beer and such as you do, I am more clear to why this is being done.
I have heard on the grapevine that the new 50MB service being rolled out runs on the DOCSIS3 type network and that 20MB users will be being moved over with this, with higher bandwidth tolerances on the traffic managed network, is this the case? also will there be any more charge for this service, because I'd be willing to pay it for better guaranteed speeds and bandwidth permissions.
Thankyou
AndrewJ
slowcoach
07-05-2008, 23:00
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33631355-the-bloke-in-the-pub-says.html ;)
Want a screen shot of the email mate..
The email to the CEO was posted on these very forums.
slowcoach
08-05-2008, 00:47
Want a screen shot of the email mate..
The email to the CEO was posted on these very forums.
It was in reply to this
Originally Posted by reply to my email -below
This is correct; you will be migrated to the wideband for no extra charge.
"The Bloke in the Pub" knows what's been decided before it's been decided. :D
"The Bloke in the Pub" knows what's been decided before it's been decided. :D
Never really thought of TBitP as a cradle-rocker...
More like the policeman in Heroes or maybe Big Ears!
:)
Cobbydaler
08-05-2008, 07:19
Want a screen shot of the email mate..
The email to the CEO was posted on these very forums.
It does say in TBitP post:
Prices envisaged post upgrades are:
10Mb/s = £18
20Mb/s = £25
50Mb/s = £37
50Mb/s may be initially priced more when it is introduced until all the upgrades are completed.
At £37 it is the same price as 20Mb/s at the moment...
Was his from the CEO of VM though :roll:
£37 for 50mbit would be great! Even if the upload rate is crap. Personally I would be prepared to pay a little bit more for some more upload rate.
It does say in TBitP post:
Prices envisaged post upgrades are:
10Mb/s = £18
20Mb/s = £25
50Mb/s = £37
50Mb/s may be initially priced more when it is introduced until all the upgrades are completed.
At £37 it is the same price as 20Mb/s at the moment...
But that is only 3 tiers and when the 50Mbit launches there will be 4 tiers. The existing M/L/XL and the 50Mbit (whatever they decide to call it), so that pricing doesn't work
Thank you for common sense.
Unless the 20MB will become the 50mb which I doubt very much their will become four tiers and thus forth my email makes sense.
Cobbydaler
08-05-2008, 19:10
Thank you for common sense.
Unless the 20MB will become the 50mb which I doubt very much their will become four tiers and thus forth my email makes sense.
But the e-mail says 'You will be migrated... at no extra charge' ergo you'll still be paying £37 for 50 Mb/s. He may be twisting the truth inasmuch as you will eventually be migrated when/if the tiers drop down to 3 again, but not immediately...
slowcoach
08-05-2008, 20:38
But the e-mail says 'You will be migrated... at no extra charge' ergo you'll still be paying £37 for 50 Mb/s. He may be twisting the truth inasmuch as you will eventually be migrated when/if the tiers drop down to 3 again, but not immediately...
Thank you Cobbydaler.
AndrewJ, TbitP and Neil Berkett are both saying basically the same thing, which is what I was trying to point out by referring to the old message.
Mind you what the real outcome will be remains to be seen as there are a lot of options available. :dozey:
Why even bother when they clearly cant provide 20mb to all customers?
Can't provide 20mb? Dude, they can't even provide 2mb to me 50% of the time.
Chrysalis
09-05-2008, 02:11
Yes it is... Transferring across my home LAN, ACK packets add upto 2.6ish Mbps when transferring at around 75Mbps.
I think it depends on things like delayed and selective acks and maybe even also rwin size.
If I download at 5mbit (tcp rate) I use approx 170kbit upload but I have delayed acks disabled. If I multiply both by 10 for 50mbit down and 1700kbit upload it would indicate 1.5mbit upload isnt enough.
spiderplant
09-05-2008, 07:42
If I download at 5mbit (tcp rate) I use approx 170kbit upload but I have delayed acks disabled. If I multiply both by 10 for 50mbit down and 1700kbit upload it would indicate 1.5mbit upload isnt enough.Multiplying by 10 isn't valid, because for the data to be acked at the same rate with your window size would also require the transit delay to be reduced by a factor of 10 (repeal the laws of physics!)
To make the most of a high speed link you HAVE to use a large window size.
Chrysalis
09-05-2008, 17:56
Does a larger rwin reduce the ack traffic?
spiderplant
09-05-2008, 21:39
It depends on the traffic profile, but in general, yes.
I predict a lot of "I'm not getting 50 meg" posts because of full window problems.
It depends on the traffic profile, but in general, yes.
I predict a lot of "I'm not getting 50 meg" posts because of full window problems.
And the fact 1.5Mb upload cannot support 50Mb, but in fact only 43Mb.
deed02392
10-05-2008, 19:35
And the fact 1.5Mb upload cannot support 50Mb, but in fact only 43Mb.
Not visited the forums in a while. From this I gather that 50Mb is confirmed with 1.5Mb upload?
---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------
£37 for 50mbit would be great! Even if the upload rate is crap. Personally I would be prepared to pay a little bit more for some more upload rate.
++
slowcoach
10-05-2008, 21:37
Since the local upgrades the other week I am getting 19Mb/s every day at any time (Servers and STM permitting) and the browsing speed is great so I am not in any hurry for 50meg anymore.
TraxData
10-05-2008, 21:41
Why are people so happy to get ripped off? 50mbit...1.5mbit upload, its pathetic, its the worst down/up ratio in the whole of the UK, yet people are gonna pay 50/month for it, VM must love customers like you.
Even 2.5 up on 50mbit is pathetic and not worth 50/month.
deed02392
10-05-2008, 21:44
Why are people so happy to get ripped off? 50mbit...1.5mbit upload, its pathetic, its the worst down/up ratio in the whole of the UK, yet people are gonna pay 50/month for it, VM must love customers like you.
Even 2.5 up on 50mbit is pathetic and not worth 50/month.
I agree, it's absolutely ludicrous. But will they do anything about it now the little board of directors have got together with their Chinese take away and spat out some numbers they don't even understand? I very much doubt it.
TraxData
10-05-2008, 21:47
I agree, it's absolutely ludicrous. But will they do anything about it now the little board of directors have got together with their Chinese take away and spat out some numbers they don't even understand? I very much doubt it.
They wont pay for the upgrades to provide higher uploads.
50mbit is just a product they are putting out to say "ner ner look at us, we're faster than you BT"
If they was serious about providing fast speeds you'd be seeing at least 5mbit upload.
deed02392
10-05-2008, 21:54
It's the sad truth, and it's also the reason they haven't bothered and probably never will bother to bring out some sort of upload+ package that would increase the upload on other existing packages. The truth is, all it does is increase potential bandwidth across their network, when 90%* of their customers wouldn't understand/care about the fact that it was there. However they haven't bothered to take into consideration the ever increasing 10%* of their customers who actually know what they're truly paying for. It's for this reason I'll be considering bethere if it ever becomes available in my area.
*Not actual statistics.
TraxData
10-05-2008, 21:59
It's the sad truth, and it's also the reason they haven't bothered and probably never will bother to bring out some sort of upload+ package that would increase the upload on other existing packages. The truth is, all it does is increase potential bandwidth across their network, when 90%* of their customers wouldn't understand/care about the fact that it was there. However they haven't bothered to take into consideration the ever increasing 10%* of their customers who actually know what they're truly paying for. It's for this reason I'll be considering bethere if it ever becomes available in my area.
*Not actual statistics.
Ironically at one point there was in planning stages a upload+ package which would have a higher upload, but you can thank neil burkett for half of the money being cut for upgrades etc :)
deed02392
10-05-2008, 22:13
Thanks Neil Burkett.
Where does he live? I'd like to express my thanks physically.
Thanks Neil Burkett.
Where does he live? I'd like to express my thanks physically.
lol. Possibly a little harsh, but I can understand the sentiment!
I can *almost* see their logic behind this though (albeit flawed). Upstream requirements aren't understood by the majority of users. 50Mb downstream looks great on the adverts but only people with a reasonable understanding of how TCP/IP traffic works can appreciate claims about upstream bandwidth. Presumably from Neil Berkett's point of view spending money to enhance something that most of his customers won't necessarily notice isn't money well spent.
Ed.
Ironically at one point there was in planning stages a upload+ package which would have a higher upload, but you can thank neil burkett for half of the money being cut for upgrades etc :)
you would think Virgin Media Neil and the US VM BOD would learn from the US comcast and their new policy since they introduced their DOCSIS3 50Mbit-D/5Mbit-U.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-11.html#post34521967
"for current high-speed Internet access resident customers, as a result of the deployment, Comcast will nearly triple the upload speed of its 6mbps/384kbps Performance tier to 6Mbps/1Mbps and more than double the upload speed of its 8Mbps/768Kbps Performance Plus tier to 8Mbps/2Mbps, at no additional charge.
"
---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 ----------
BTW cablelabs just did six cable modems, for the new spec, following Wave 58
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-12.html#post34549341
"
six cable modems, marking the first consumer-side gear ever to be certified for the new spec, following Wave 58
....
"
but thats not quite right, as there was at least one CPE that got full 3.0 cert already on wave 56 i think it was...
you would think Virgin Media Neil and the US VM BOD would learn from the US comcast and their new policy since they introduced their DOCSIS3 50Mbit-D/5Mbit-U.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-11.html#post34521967
"for current high-speed Internet access resident customers, as a result of the deployment, Comcast will nearly triple the upload speed of its 6mbps/384kbps Performance tier to 6Mbps/1Mbps and more than double the upload speed of its 8Mbps/768Kbps Performance Plus tier to 8Mbps/2Mbps, at no additional charge.
"
---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 ----------
BTW cablelabs just did six cable modems, for the new spec, following Wave 58
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-12.html#post34549341
"
six cable modems, marking the first consumer-side gear ever to be certified for the new spec, following Wave 58
....
"
but thats not quite right, as there was at least one CPE that got full 3.0 cert already on wave 56 i think it was...
What are these "waves" ?
TraxData
11-05-2008, 02:36
you would think Virgin Media Neil and the US VM BOD would learn from the US comcast and their new policy since they introduced their DOCSIS3 50Mbit-D/5Mbit-U.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-11.html#post34521967
"for current high-speed Internet access resident customers, as a result of the deployment, Comcast will nearly triple the upload speed of its 6mbps/384kbps Performance tier to 6Mbps/1Mbps and more than double the upload speed of its 8Mbps/768Kbps Performance Plus tier to 8Mbps/2Mbps, at no additional charge.
"
---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 ----------
BTW cablelabs just did six cable modems, for the new spec, following Wave 58
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-12.html#post34549341
"
six cable modems, marking the first consumer-side gear ever to be certified for the new spec, following Wave 58
....
"
but thats not quite right, as there was at least one CPE that got full 3.0 cert already on wave 56 i think it was...
That article is a little wrong, the upload is now 2.5mbit for the 8mbit and 16mbit tiers on comcast...they also now offer a 20mbit/5mbit connection.
Your correct though, you'd think VM would learn, but then..this is VM we're talking about..and it all came down to "like we are gonna pay to upgrade the kit to support high upload speeds" "rather give myself a fat bonus" situation.
That article is a little wrong, the upload is now 2.5mbit for the 8mbit and 16mbit tiers on comcast...they also now offer a 20mbit/5mbit connection.
Your correct though, you'd think VM would learn, but then..this is VM we're talking about..and it all came down to "like we are gonna pay to upgrade the kit to support high upload speeds" "rather give myself a fat bonus" situation.
How many fat bonuses can one person consume before the business dies though really?
TraxData
11-05-2008, 02:39
How many fat bonuses can one person consume before the business dies though really?
Well personally i believe VM is very quickly turning into a "pump 50mbit out, make us look good to potential buyers, give ourselfs a big fat bonus then quickly f-ck off soon as its sold and let it die under different hands"
But, that is just my opinion ;)
Well personally i believe VM is very quickly turning into a "pump 50mbit out, make us look good to potential buyers, give ourselfs a big fat bonus then quickly f-ck off soon as its sold and let it die under different hands"
But, that is just my opinion ;)
Sounds about right to me.
What are these "waves" ?
it's just their name for the official "pay your fee and we will test it for complience to the spec and grade it".
with Docsis3 , they have set several official "testing days" or "waves" a year so as to progress the hardware in stages as quick as they can...
It's the sad truth, and it's also the reason they haven't bothered and probably never will bother to bring out some sort of upload+ package that would increase the upload on other existing packages. The truth is, all it does is increase potential bandwidth across their network, when 90%* of their customers wouldn't understand/care about the fact that it was there. However they haven't bothered to take into consideration the ever increasing 10%* of their customers who actually know what they're truly paying for. It's for this reason I'll be considering bethere if it ever becomes available in my area.
*Not actual statistics.
Upload plus is only available up to 2km from the exchange. So in effect very few people get close to the advertised speeds ergo they end up with much less contention problems. My max download speed on Be* would be around 5-6 Mb assuming my line quality was fine and I don't live out in the sticks.
Everyone on cable is capable of getting maximum upload and download speeds which makes contention a much bigger issue. When you also factor in the price of getting a phone line you end up paying the same for a much slower service with Be* if you take their top package.
Upload has always been a rare commodity on cable and will be for the foreseeable. If you desperately need much higher upload then a commercial package, probably costing around £600-£1000 a month would be your only real alternative.
Upload plus is only available up to 2km from the exchange.
So in effect very few people get close to the advertised speeds ergo they end up with much less contention problems.
My max download speed on Be* would be around 5-6 Mb assuming my line quality was fine and I don't live out in the sticks.
Everyone on cable is capable of getting maximum upload and download speeds which makes contention a much bigger issue.
When you also factor in the price of getting a phone line you end up paying the same for a much slower service with Be* if you take their top package.
Upload has always been a rare commodity on cable and will be for the foreseeable.
If you desperately need much higher upload then a commercial package, probably costing around £600-£1000 a month would be your only real alternative.
well, we are talking cable here and upload rates in this instance but even then your best Be* upload will provide even you with a far better real upload rate irespective of your lower download rate as stated.
a far better ratio and rate even than the currently proposed new 1.5Mbit upload rate of the 50Mbit VM package infact.
if they dont rethink the prime VM package, and at the very least better Be*'s best, by ay least a good 1Mbit+, thats at least 3.5Mbit upload if i remember Be*'s best at 2.5Mbit currently?, will just continue to profit at VMs expense.
as for the cable upload and it being "rare", its only rare due to the way cable has receaved competition protection, (we should open it up to allow 3rd party STB's and existing DOCSIS1.1/2.0 CM PCi/USB cards) and the way the cable sales teams have sold it for max short term profits, instead of long term product and consumer growth.
its perfectly possible to stop overselling the UBRs upgrade the cards and better re-seg the kit at any time,they chose not to.
the newest linecards and UBR kit they plug into etc, as i posted about on the older 50Mbit thread linked above, are the best price they have ever been , they provide far more ports today (compared to even just 2 years ago)and are perfectly capable of providing far better upload rates on the old Euro-Docsis1.1 per customer.
sure not everyone needs or more the case wants faster uploads, but for those that do , they are perfectly willing to pay,just as there are still more people that will pay for more than one cable modem per account ...
however..., VM refuse to provide it even today, after spending all that money on upgrading and migrating everyone to their new wizbang billing system for the future, VM refuse to provide these simple things we want to pay for, and so they cant profit from it, and we end users cant get it.
thats the choice the sales teams and executives have made, and thats why cable is in such a mess with its werst ratio in the UK market place for years now, a follower of the best *DSL UK upload packages, instead of a leader on many levels, were it could have been far in advance of *DSL in the upload rates.....and greater customer base and profits, their choice to throw away that massive advantage, not ours.
your not keeping up with the latest trends, there are several commercial packages today that are using 1to1 U/D ratio in the Wimax and other microwave sectors (Wireless 1GigE to name but one) for far less than your assumed 1990's £600-£1000 a month priced packages.
it's just their name for the official "pay your fee and we will test it for complience to the spec and grade it".
with Docsis3 , they have set several official "testing days" or "waves" a year so as to progress the hardware in stages as quick as they can...
Ah, thanks for the info.
well, we are talking cable here and upload rates in this instance but even then your best Be* upload will provide even you with a far better real upload rate irespective of your lower download rate as stated.
I'm referring to the limits quoted on Be*'s website for availability of upload plus. If that's not available then Be*'s standard upload is no better than VM's 50Mb. Having said that I didn't take the possible price differences of 50Mb into account. So Be* may still end up being the better deal.
your not keeping up with the latest trends, there are several commercial packages today that are using 1to1 U/D ratio in the Wimax and other microwave sectors (Wireless 1GigE to name but one) for far less than your assumed 1990's £600-£1000 a month priced packages.
I was referring to packages available as alternatives to the majority of VM customers to increase upload bandwidth in the very near, 50Mb rolllout-near, future.
As for the price to increase upload significantly, SDSL is around £200 a month unmanaged from most ISP's for a 2Mb/2Mb package. I'm not totally sure how much NTL charge for a leased line but I've seen quotes around the amounts I've stated. Mostly forum posts and nothing better than the 'bloke in the pub' sources which I should of stated in the original post.
broadbandbug
11-05-2008, 07:18
They wont pay for the upgrades to provide higher uploads.
50mbit is just a product they are putting out to say "ner ner look at us, we're faster than you BT"
If they was serious about providing fast speeds you'd be seeing at least 5mbit upload.
Whilst the DoCSIS 3.0 Modems only have the ability to be registered on a single upstream and that upstream can only be 3.2Mhz QAM16 (10Mb/s) then it is very unlikely that 5Mb/s Upstream would be viable (2 simultaneous users bust the upstream). Higher Upstream may come when upstream channel bonding is available (2009/2010).
The other option is to spend shed loads of money to bring the return path up to a higher quality to support QAM32 or QAM64.
---------- Post added at 07:18 ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 ----------
I am interested how some of you feel it possible for VM to offer greater upload speeds on a network that only has 30Mhz return path spectrum in which to work?
To me that breaks down as only having between around 18Mhz and 30Mhz to use, so 4 upstream channels.. 3 x 3.2MHz QAM16 and 1 x 1.6Mhz QPSK shared across around 400 customers
spiderplant
11-05-2008, 09:53
I'm not totally sure how much NTL charge for a leased line but I've seen quotes around the amounts I've stated. Mostly forum posts and nothing better than the 'bloke in the pub' sources which I should of stated in the original post.
NTL don't publish prices, but it's not hard to find companies that do. e.g. http://www.newnet.co.uk/leasedlines/index.php
So you weren't too wide of the mark.
deed02392
11-05-2008, 11:04
Whilst the DoCSIS 3.0 Modems only have the ability to be registered on a single upstream and that upstream can only be 3.2Mhz QAM16 (10Mb/s) then it is very unlikely that 5Mb/s Upstream would be viable (2 simultaneous users bust the upstream). Higher Upstream may come when upstream channel bonding is available (2009/2010).
The other option is to spend shed loads of money to bring the return path up to a higher quality to support QAM32 or QAM64.
No one is giving numbers for what they want in upload, but I believe the general consensus is at least and upload bandwidth that meets the overhead of the download speed they are advertising.
TraxData
11-05-2008, 14:36
Whilst the DoCSIS 3.0 Modems only have the ability to be registered on a single upstream and that upstream can only be 3.2Mhz QAM16 (10Mb/s) then it is very unlikely that 5Mb/s Upstream would be viable (2 simultaneous users bust the upstream). Higher Upstream may come when upstream channel bonding is available (2009/2010).
The other option is to spend shed loads of money to bring the return path up to a higher quality to support QAM32 or QAM64.
---------- Post added at 07:18 ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 ----------
I am interested how some of you feel it possible for VM to offer greater upload speeds on a network that only has 30Mhz return path spectrum in which to work?
To me that breaks down as only having between around 18Mhz and 30Mhz to use, so 4 upstream channels.. 3 x 3.2MHz QAM16 and 1 x 1.6Mhz QPSK shared across around 400 customers
But again that goes back to the fact when 50mbit was in planning stages and they had the go ahead...they had enough money to upgrade a hell of alot of the kit and to make upstream bonding possible (i know the planned upload for 50mbit was originally 5mbit per the stage 1 planning), then..it was decided it wasnt *viable* (which really meant, stuff payin for all that, i want my big fat bonus, again) and it got scrapped, half the money got taken away and now we are going to have a half assed service.
Ironically that's what happened to comcast...till the customers found out and they were -forced- to cough up.
Too bad we cant do the same with VM.
It's like this 40G linkup fiasco, they was supposed to upgrade to 100G before neil came into play...now they are showing off about 40? that's nice..it isnt really gonna help the network when you have 50mbit coming into play. oh wait...yes it will because they refuse to provide any good type of upload.
Just wondered if anyone had seen this
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95634/cable-modems-certified-for-100mbps-plus.html
;)
TraxData
11-05-2008, 14:47
Just wondered if anyone had seen this
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95634/cable-modems-certified-for-100mbps-plus.html
;)
Yep, comcast are planning 20, 50 and 100mbit symetrical services for sometime late 2009.
I think the 100mbit will fall flat on its arse as their hardware isnt very good.
The rest are very viable though, the 50mbit symetrical is already being trialled (behind closed doors).
Just look at fios, 50/20 package...doesnt that make VM look pathetic?
Impz2002
11-05-2008, 20:46
Fios is an awesome system but thats fibre. It does show that people are willing to pay and it can be profitable !
If VM gave 50meg a decent upload and spent some time making the average consumer aware of its advantages it would be a headline product and a huge success !
Impz
deed02392
12-05-2008, 07:49
Haha, when Hell freezes over.
danielrostron
12-05-2008, 15:29
Ignoring all the technobabble, do we have any confirmed pricing, release dates etc for the 50mb product?
Anyone got any cold, hard facts?
broadbandbug
12-05-2008, 18:57
But again that goes back to the fact when 50mbit was in planning stages and they had the go ahead...they had enough money to upgrade a hell of alot of the kit and to make upstream bonding possible (i know the planned upload for 50mbit was originally 5mbit per the stage 1 planning), then..it was decided it wasnt *viable* (which really meant, stuff payin for all that, i want my big fat bonus, again) and it got scrapped, half the money got taken away and now we are going to have a half assed service.
Ironically that's what happened to comcast...till the customers found out and they were -forced- to cough up.
Too bad we cant do the same with VM.
It's like this 40G linkup fiasco, they was supposed to upgrade to 100G before neil came into play...now they are showing off about 40? that's nice..it isnt really gonna help the network when you have 50mbit coming into play. oh wait...yes it will because they refuse to provide any good type of upload.
There is no kit that VM haven't bought that enables Upstream Bonding.. The Cards for Upstream Bonding are not yet available from either Cisco or Motorola.. 2009/2010 as far as I am aware.
The only option in the meantime is more dense modulation schemes (QAM32 or QAM64) and you know how that would perform;)
There is no kit that VM haven't bought that enables Upstream Bonding.. The Cards for Upstream Bonding are not yet available from either Cisco or Motorola.. 2009/2010 as far as I am aware.
The only option in the meantime is more dense modulation schemes (QAM32 or QAM64) and you know how that would perform;)
this lack of tested upstream bonding "silver" or "Full" D3 seems to be true at the moment, however 2009/2010 seems far to long a commercial availablility timescale given the new push to the new (Euro-)D3 spec worldwide.
while its not really a viable option as far as i can tell,(does anyone have experience of this kit?) they could go for a limited "Full" D3 Speced "Casa Systems" device or 3 in each headend as a limited trial/test on the "Full" D3 certified spec, if matched up with one of the "Full" D3 CPE (probably Ambit on past experience)due out in full production in around 3 months i think....
also,there are several more "waves" to come this year, so there is also a potential to get a silver or even a full 'Cisco or Motorola' card through and into commercial production this year....
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=153441&site=cdn
"CableLabs also awarded “full” qualification status for Cable Modem Termination Systems (CMTS) to Casa Systems for two devices. This is the first qualification of a DOCSIS 3.0 CMTS representing “full” or complete compliance with all requirements of the DOCSIS 3.0 specification for headends. Motorola received bronze qualification for its CMTS."
---------- Post added at 19:50 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------
Whilst the DoCSIS 3.0 Modems only have the ability to be registered on a single upstream and that upstream can only be 3.2Mhz QAM16 (10Mb/s) then it is very unlikely that 5Mb/s Upstream would be viable (2 simultaneous users bust the upstream). Higher Upstream may come when upstream channel bonding is available (2009/2010).
The other option is to spend shed loads of money to bring the return path up to a higher quality to support QAM32 or QAM64.
---------- Post added at 07:18 ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 ----------
I am interested how some of you feel it possible for VM to offer greater upload speeds on a network that only has 30Mhz return path spectrum in which to work?
To me that breaks down as only having between around 18Mhz and 30Mhz to use, so 4 upstream channels.. 3 x 3.2MHz QAM16 and 1 x 1.6Mhz QPSK shared across around 400 customers
i was under the impression the No.s your quoting are the average US non Euro D1.0 No.s
and the majority of kit in VM network was infact Euro D1.1 kit ? and so has both more freq and speed to play with on average....
and thats not even allowing for the far improved speeds/freq per single channel of the new (Euro-)Docsis2.0B spec that the (Euro-)D3 will be using as its base....
also , i cant find the link i put up on the other thread that showed the recommended "(US)industry best practice" slides, was to in effect re-seg/shuffle the available total currently used freqs around, so as to allow far for scope in improved larger blocks of freqs to play with later,to get ready for the up and coming D3 rollouts worldwide....and other future options etc.
sure its on a company by company basis, but it seems only wise of VM with its massive UK market share, to have at least started , or at least got a plan ready for the recommended re-shuffle of the total used freq plans over the whole VM network.
and thats not even considering the turning off of the old analogue sometime in the future (2010/1012 was it?).
Well, Neil is now talking about 100Mbs (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95732/analogue-axe-could-lead-to-100mbps-net.html)- for relatively little money - according to him!
Colin
i found the slides , my mistake they were more for the downstream and they only show the US 6MHz not the Euro 8MHz etc but take a look at slide 25 and 26 for an idea.
http://www.bloobble.com/broadband-presentations/flash?pageName=popup&itemid=799&keepsession=true
btw, heres the info for those current D2 cards with masses of extra ports per card.
and it seems they are or will be ready with D2.0B specs and so usable with the far better speeds on a single channel, and they are still the cheapest any cards have been to date too...
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-10.html#post34470723
---------- Post added at 21:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:00 ----------
Well, Neil is now talking about 100Mbs (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95732/analogue-axe-could-lead-to-100mbps-net.html)- for relatively little money - according to him!
Colin
:wavey: at Neil reading my earlyer posts perhaps, LOL ;)
shame about him canning the core 100Gig tested though as per above to cure or at least mitigate many near future potential problems.... (shhh, dont mention the 50Mbit will be really 43 Mbit max before any STM is even used due to the stupid 1.5Mbit limit on the upload ).
so NOT 2010/1012 after all, infact its this month........
"
Analogue axe 'could lead to 100Mbps net'
Monday, May 12 2008, 16:51 BST
By Dave West (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95732/analogue-axe-could-lead-to-100mbps-net.html#), Media Correspondent
Turning off analogue signals will allow Virgin Media to provide 100Mbps downstream speeds over its cable network "if we chose", according to the firm's chief executive.
Neil Berkett said the combined effects of introducing the DOCSIS 3.0 transmission standard and the freeing up of capacity by switching off analogue cable TV transmissions would allow it to continue providing faster broadband than competitors.
The company today confirmed it was commencing a tentative region-by-region programme of ending analogue cable TV service (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95712/virgin-begins-analogue-cable-switch-off.html).
"Relatively modest investment in customer equipment and [headend] ports for channel bonding is required to do this and is included in our current capital expenditure guidance," he told investors.
....
"
---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:06 ----------
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95712/virgin-begins-analogue-cable-switch-off.html
"
Virgin begins analogue cable switch off
Monday, May 12 2008, 12:35 BST
By Dave West (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a95712/virgin-begins-analogue-cable-switch-off.html#), Media Correspondent
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/77.jpg
Virgin Media has begun a tentative programme of switching off analogue transmission across its cable network.
Digital services have been available across much of the UK's cable network for several years, but about 200,000 homes are still watching analogue cable television provided by Virgin.
Under the "long term" region-by-region project, which is beginning this month, analogue subscribers in areas where digital cable services are already available will be offered transfers to new packages, the company told Digital Spy.
....
"
---------- Post added at 21:30 ---------- Previous post was at 21:21 ----------
any comments on how this switch off might effect the (Baguley ?..NW) bringing the "return path up to a higher quality" and so presumably improve the noise levels and far better Euro-D2/D3 (single channel) freq use throughput etc.....
---------- Post added at 21:40 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------
"Berkett said: "We currently only use two 8Mhz channels to serve all our broadband customers. For DOCSIS 3.0 this will be tripled. Each additional channel will be freed up by switching off a single analogue channel.
"
---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------
keep in mind they dont have silver or "full" for this CMTS kit yet but this press release just now was interesting for the first real officially stated MAX No.s for the minimum spec 4 ports download speeds.
not that we will see anywere near this with VM limits in place inthe future, but the potentials there.
see the TX32 card i referenced on the other thread for the up/down ports etc...
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=ind_focus.story&STORY=/www/story/05-12-2008/0004811519&EDATE=MON+May+12+2008,+12:56+PM
"....
The BSR 64000 can be configured for I-CMTS with the addition of the
Motorola TX32 decoupled downstream module.
The deployment of the TX32 provides a significant increase in downstream capacity and an increase in downstream bandwidth.
It allows operators to deploy ultra-broadband services with data speeds in excess of 145 Mbps to a single DOCSIS 3.0 cable modem, and over 200 Mbps to a single EuroDOCSIS cable modem, by leveraging DOCSIS 3.0 downstream channel bonding....
....
"
TraxData
12-05-2008, 22:26
Direct from the horses mouth about 50mbit, apparently they cant do simple math.
The minimum upstream to support 50Mbps downstream is actually a lot less that 1.5Mbps! Tried, tested and proven.
The trials have been running for nearly two years, everyone on the trial can get 50Mbps downstream.
We have meetings with the trialists in Kent (both virtual and "physical") and believe we've chosen an upstream that the majority of people are happy with.
1.5mbit is more than enough for anyone to do things online.
The upload will not be any higher as this has already been set in stone.
Of course, it won't suit everyone, does anything?! But I feed all the trialists views into VM so that they can decide....I don't ignore anyone.
Hope that helps. I can't go into much detail (for a lot of commercial reasons), but I will reply to any message you send me....unless it's abusive.
-Name Removed xxxxxxxxx
Mick Fisher
13-05-2008, 01:28
Direct from the horses mouth about 50mbit, apparently they cant do simple math.
Oh well, that's that then. 50meg..dead in the water for me and I don't even do torrents.
Just that a decent upload is a nice thing to have, for on the odd occasion you might need it.
50meg if it's subject to a stupid STM is not even gonna be helpful to a household with multiple PC's.
It really is only good for bragging rights. :td:
Direct from the horses mouth about 50mbit, apparently they cant do simple math.
Pathetic.
LOL , 2Gbps, 10Gbps, 20Gbps and 50Gbps indeed....
http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2008/05/13/virgin-media-completes-high-speed-trial/#comment-389
May 13, 2008
Virgin Media completes high speed trial
TraxData
13-05-2008, 15:58
There is no kit that VM haven't bought that enables Upstream Bonding.. The Cards for Upstream Bonding are not yet available from either Cisco or Motorola.. 2009/2010 as far as I am aware.
The only option in the meantime is more dense modulation schemes (QAM32 or QAM64) and you know how that would perform;)
Err...but they used upstream bonding when the trial first started.
They had 6mbit upload (1.5mbit per channel) at the start of the trials, it was only recently (well 5+ months) that they changed it down to 1.5mbit.
spiderplant
13-05-2008, 19:28
Direct from the horses mouth about 50mbit, apparently they cant do simple math.
Please can you run us through the simple math? I think it may be too simple.
I did a quick test with a 20Mbps modem earlier. Doing a single FTP, I achieved a 46:1 downstream:upstream ratio, and that was without any tweaking of the receiving system.
If you Google for "TCP highly asymmetric", you'll find lots of papers on the subject. This (www.gs.ru/soft/si/misc/TCP.pdf) is one of the more readable.
When links are highly asymmetric (say more than about 48:1) there is simply not enough “return†bandwidth to keep TCP sending at full speed.
Please can you run us through the simple math? I think it may be too simple.
I did a quick test with a 20Mbps modem earlier. Doing a single FTP, I achieved a 46:1 downstream:upstream ratio, and that was without any tweaking of the receiving system.
That DOES sound a bit simple ... at what layer were you measuring this bandwidth? From 1:46, I'd assume you're just measuring IP packets (40/1500 would be 1.15:46).
But, you probably performed this test over ethernet. On top of your IP packet, you have an ethernet frame plus additional protocol overheads. This would normally add up to 38 bytes (ethernet addresses, packet length, checksum, guard space, etc.)
38 bytes on top of a 1500 byte data packet is 2.5% extra. 38 bytes on top of a 40 byte ack packet is 95% extra, almost double.
So, for ethernet your measured ratio would be 1.95:49.025, assuming everything above; that's close enough to 2:50.
Now, there are two BIG caveats, and one little one.
Firstly, the cable modem is NOT ethernet. I really don't know enough about it to know what sort of overheads there are, but you can be sure there's a source and destination address. The fact that the cable side has MAC addresses which look just like ethernet addresses would suggest that they could be comparable.
Secondly, I've no idea at which protocol level the bandwidth limit is at. If it's discarding the lower-layer protocols before calculating the speed, then 1.33Mbps would be sufficient (although NOT enough to you to make best use of the bandwidth).
If the bandwidth limit INCLUDES the additional overheads (whatever they may be) then it's unlikely that 1.33Mbps would be enough: even 12 bytes (two mac addresses) is enough to increase the bandwidth requirement to 1.77M.
Thirdly, delayed-ack could reduce the ack traffic by half. It will for some people ... but from your calculations above, not you.
Of course, this is all academic if you want to do anything except downloading large files. Most people will be want do to things like check for e-mails, send e-mails, read web pages, have Windows doing updates, NTP updates, weather updates, RSS feeds.
More upload would be beneficial, but then again it's more than you'd get with 20Mbps so it's a move forward.
broadbandbug
14-05-2008, 21:56
this lack of tested upstream bonding "silver" or "Full" D3 seems to be true at the moment, however 2009/2010 seems far to long a commercial availablility timescale given the new push to the new (Euro-)D3 spec worldwide.
while its not really a viable option as far as i can tell,(does anyone have experience of this kit?) they could go for a limited "Full" D3 Speced "Casa Systems" device or 3 in each headend as a limited trial/test on the "Full" D3 certified spec, if matched up with one of the "Full" D3 CPE (probably Ambit on past experience)due out in full production in around 3 months i think....
also,there are several more "waves" to come this year, so there is also a potential to get a silver or even a full 'Cisco or Motorola' card through and into commercial production this year....
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=153441&site=cdn
"CableLabs also awarded “full†qualification status for Cable Modem Termination Systems (CMTS) to Casa Systems for two devices. This is the first qualification of a DOCSIS 3.0 CMTS representing “full†or complete compliance with all requirements of the DOCSIS 3.0 specification for headends. Motorola received bronze qualification for its CMTS."
---------- Post added at 19:50 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------
i was under the impression the No.s your quoting are the average US non Euro D1.0 No.s
and the majority of kit in VM network was infact Euro D1.1 kit ? and so has both more freq and speed to play with on average....
and thats not even allowing for the far improved speeds/freq per single channel of the new (Euro-)Docsis2.0B spec that the (Euro-)D3 will be using as its base....
also , i cant find the link i put up on the other thread that showed the recommended "(US)industry best practice" slides, was to in effect re-seg/shuffle the available total currently used freqs around, so as to allow far for scope in improved larger blocks of freqs to play with later,to get ready for the up and coming D3 rollouts worldwide....and other future options etc.
sure its on a company by company basis, but it seems only wise of VM with its massive UK market share, to have at least started , or at least got a plan ready for the recommended re-shuffle of the total used freq plans over the whole VM network.
and thats not even considering the turning off of the old analogue sometime in the future (2010/1012 was it?).
The majority (Two Thirds) of VM Network is US DoCSIS, only the Bromley Platform is EuroDoCSIS. For Upstream Bandwidth they are both the same with regards to channel width and capacity availability etc.
---------- Post added at 21:54 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------
Err...but they used upstream bonding when the trial first started.
They had 6mbit upload (1.5mbit per channel) at the start of the trials, it was only recently (well 5+ months) that they changed it down to 1.5mbit.
Propriatary non standard CMTS and Modems from Arris.. As you know they didn't win through the vendor selection (too expensive?).
Motorola and Cisco do not have an upstream channel bonding capability currently available.
---------- Post added at 21:56 ---------- Previous post was at 21:54 ----------
That DOES sound a bit simple ... at what layer were you measuring this bandwidth? From 1:46, I'd assume you're just measuring IP packets (40/1500 would be 1.15:46).
But, you probably performed this test over ethernet. On top of your IP packet, you have an ethernet frame plus additional protocol overheads. This would normally add up to 38 bytes (ethernet addresses, packet length, checksum, guard space, etc.)
38 bytes on top of a 1500 byte data packet is 2.5% extra. 38 bytes on top of a 40 byte ack packet is 95% extra, almost double.
So, for ethernet your measured ratio would be 1.95:49.025, assuming everything above; that's close enough to 2:50.
Now, there are two BIG caveats, and one little one.
Firstly, the cable modem is NOT ethernet. I really don't know enough about it to know what sort of overheads there are, but you can be sure there's a source and destination address. The fact that the cable side has MAC addresses which look just like ethernet addresses would suggest that they could be comparable.
Secondly, I've no idea at which protocol level the bandwidth limit is at. If it's discarding the lower-layer protocols before calculating the speed, then 1.33Mbps would be sufficient (although NOT enough to you to make best use of the bandwidth).
If the bandwidth limit INCLUDES the additional overheads (whatever they may be) then it's unlikely that 1.33Mbps would be enough: even 12 bytes (two mac addresses) is enough to increase the bandwidth requirement to 1.77M.
Thirdly, delayed-ack could reduce the ack traffic by half. It will for some people ... but from your calculations above, not you.
Of course, this is all academic if you want to do anything except downloading large files. Most people will be want do to things like check for e-mails, send e-mails, read web pages, have Windows doing updates, NTP updates, weather updates, RSS feeds.
More upload would be beneficial, but then again it's more than you'd get with 20Mbps so it's a move forward.
Would any reduction in Upstream bandwidth requirements be gained from use of things like Ack Suppression?
Would any reduction in Upstream bandwidth requirements be gained from use of things like Ack Suppression?
Yes, that's what I meant by the delayed-ack line. Of course, it could slow things down if it causes the sender to pass the end of its window.
Also, these are best-case figures (1500 bytes per packet). Not every path on the Internet has a 1500 MTU. Not every protocol is as efficient. You have to take into account request headers, for example.
If you assume that on average you need a 1:50 ratio and you're on the limit of upload speed, then for each 1k, you lose the ability to download 50k.
That doesn't seem like much, but HTTP headers can be that big - if a page is made up with dozens of small images, then it soon adds up.
Chrysalis
15-05-2008, 02:24
Yep, comcast are planning 20, 50 and 100mbit symetrical services for sometime late 2009.
I think the 100mbit will fall flat on its arse as their hardware isnt very good.
The rest are very viable though, the 50mbit symetrical is already being trialled (behind closed doors).
Just look at fios, 50/20 package...doesnt that make VM look pathetic?
I been wondering why the uk and usa markets are so different.
In the usa traffic shaping fell flat on its face with congress getting involved and there is clearly more investment going on in their broadband infrastructures (FTTH and DOCSIS3).
In the uk its quite the opposite we have providers falling over themselves trying to get the bottom customers (the ones who want the internet for nothing), there is no real investment going on other than in sales/pr departments and buying customers. Traffic shaping came without a bat from the media until it was already established, traffic shaping is now used by the majority of isps, sky are the only major isp not using it. In addition isps have got away with selling high speed products that in reality are not high speed. Because of this there is no motivation to upgrade the infrastructure to properly support high speed.
So why is this? Could be a few reasons here are some I can think off.
1 - Our consumers are stupid their main concern is price and as long as its cheap enough they fairly satisfied regardless of the impact on quality of service. Example talktalk starts free broadband suddenly people are ringing their current isp for a price match without understanding the economics of it.
2 - Lack of regulation/government/media attention, the ASA already gives isps the green light to call limited services unlimited, they consider a broadband connection that has a fibre backhaul but non fiber local loop to be described as a fibre connection. Both these things alone massively reduce the needs of an isp to upgrade its infrastructure as it now has a licence to missell its product, then we have ofcom who are only interested in a competitive market even if its means the consumer gets screwed. Example again, BT will not invest in FTTH or FTTC because ofcom want them to unbundle it cheaply which effectively makes it unviable to BT, if BT were rolling out FTTC/H then we can be sure VM would be reacting to it.
3 - Related to #2 somewhat our market is way too competitive, prices are too low, 8mbit broadband for £10 has no margins that can fund investment as well as making it no longer possible for light users to subsidise heavier users since there is no longer any profit on light users never mind heavy users, and VM is soon to be going down the same path when they upgrade all 3 of their tiers to faster speeds. It is basically mass selling of bargain basement broadband, quality goes hand in hand with price. Example, adsl prior to 8mbit adsl max was either 20:1 or 50:1 contention ratio and the 50:1 products were actually closer to 30:1, after adsl max launch we no longer see contention ratios defined in products and the reason for this is because now contention ratio is nearer 133:1 for a lot of adsl isps. There is no such thing as something for nothing, the price for increasing adsl speeds at no retail price cost was more people are now sharing the bandwidth. It will be the same on cable when the speeds go up.
4 - governments relationship with media copyright holders, we know they are backing them against the isps threatening to even legislate, so broadband packages with low upload limits make it harder to distribute copyright material.
Thanks to those who can be bothered to read it :)
---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 ----------
In regards to the turning off analogue.
Virgin was, however, unable to provide details of what will happen in individual areas where it currently provides analogue cable services but not digital. They include parts of Milton Keynes, Westminster, Southampton, Slough and Leicester.
I think VM may well withdraw from some areas especially now they ditched their LLU plans. It seems to make sense as to why they refusing to comment. Clearly they don't/can't upgrade these area to digital. I still remember the phone call I had with a VM exec PA who refused to say they will not withdraw from my area.
---------- Post added at 02:24 ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 ----------
That DOES sound a bit simple ... at what layer were you measuring this bandwidth? From 1:46, I'd assume you're just measuring IP packets (40/1500 would be 1.15:46).
But, you probably performed this test over ethernet. On top of your IP packet, you have an ethernet frame plus additional protocol overheads. This would normally add up to 38 bytes (ethernet addresses, packet length, checksum, guard space, etc.)
38 bytes on top of a 1500 byte data packet is 2.5% extra. 38 bytes on top of a 40 byte ack packet is 95% extra, almost double.
So, for ethernet your measured ratio would be 1.95:49.025, assuming everything above; that's close enough to 2:50.
Now, there are two BIG caveats, and one little one.
Firstly, the cable modem is NOT ethernet. I really don't know enough about it to know what sort of overheads there are, but you can be sure there's a source and destination address. The fact that the cable side has MAC addresses which look just like ethernet addresses would suggest that they could be comparable.
Secondly, I've no idea at which protocol level the bandwidth limit is at. If it's discarding the lower-layer protocols before calculating the speed, then 1.33Mbps would be sufficient (although NOT enough to you to make best use of the bandwidth).
If the bandwidth limit INCLUDES the additional overheads (whatever they may be) then it's unlikely that 1.33Mbps would be enough: even 12 bytes (two mac addresses) is enough to increase the bandwidth requirement to 1.77M.
Thirdly, delayed-ack could reduce the ack traffic by half. It will for some people ... but from your calculations above, not you.
Of course, this is all academic if you want to do anything except downloading large files. Most people will be want do to things like check for e-mails, send e-mails, read web pages, have Windows doing updates, NTP updates, weather updates, RSS feeds.
More upload would be beneficial, but then again it's more than you'd get with 20Mbps so it's a move forward.
Yeah delayed ack is a big one, its on by default in windows XP and vista, I turned mine off for some reasons (mainly to decrease tcp latency) and I immediatly noticed my upload bw roughly double during downloading.
spiderplant
15-05-2008, 07:49
That DOES sound a bit simple ... at what layer were you measuring this bandwidth? From 1:46, I'd assume you're just measuring IP packets (40/1500 would be 1.15:46).
I was measuring at the ethernet frame level (dest MAC up to, but possibly not including, FCS). But the all-important bit is that it was indeed delaying ACKs. I didn't take too much notice, but I think the data to ACK packet ratio was around 1.6.
I was measuring at the ethernet frame level (dest MAC up to, but possibly not including, FCS). But the all-important bit is that it was indeed delaying ACKs. I didn't take too much notice, but I think the data to ACK packet ratio was around 1.6.
OK, that sounds fair. So your ACK packets would have been 54 bytes? 78/54 is 1.44. 1/46*50*1.44 = 1.57.
For *ethernet*, you're still over 1.5M. Does anyone have in-depth knowledge of the framing used on cable modems, and how exactly the bandwidth is limited?
spiderplant
15-05-2008, 21:17
Aren't you ignoring the delayed/suppressed ACKs? I agree it would be over 1.5 meg if every data packet was acked. But diviide by 1.6ish (or 2 on a good day) and you're well under.
AIUI DOCSIS adds an extra 6 bytes to the ethernet frame, but I don't know at what level the rate limiting works.
Aren't you ignoring the delayed/suppressed ACKs? I agree it would be over 1.5 meg if every data packet was acked. But diviide by 1.6ish (or 2 on a good day) and you're well under.
AIUI DOCSIS adds an extra 6 bytes to the ethernet frame, but I don't know at what level the rate limiting works.
Nope, I was taking your measured figures (1:46 taking delayed-acks into account) and multiplying by 1.44, which is the additional overhead on ethernet for ack packets (78 bytes total / 54 measured).
6 bytes on top of the ethernet frame is much less than the 24 I added, but then it might include the CRC as part of the frame, which would make it 10.
It's all theoretical, of course.
spiderplant
15-05-2008, 22:10
Fair enough. Let's wait and see. :)
Quite a few of you say that 1.5mbit would not be enough to download at full 50mbit. What upload speed would be needed to achieve the minimum 50mbit download rate? Would it still be sub 2mbit?
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33631817-50mbit-rollout-has-started-page-10.html#post34545407
it makes Virgin Media's up and coming 34:1 ratio 50Mbit Down/1.5Mbit Up offering look rather weak doesnt it.
the UK getting beaten by the Spanish
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=164179&site=cdn
"...
Having trialled the service in the Spanish city of Valladolid earlier this year, ONO is for the commercial launch of a 100 Mbit/s downstream, 5 Mbit/s upstream service for €80 per month (including voice service), and a 50 Mbit/s downstream, 3 Mbit/s upstream service for €60 per month (including voice service), in Madrid starting Oct. 15.
About 700,000 homes will be within reach of the service initially. Adding TV services to the packages will increase the monthly prices to €95 and €75 respectively.
...
"
cook1984
20-09-2008, 18:33
For *ethernet*, you're still over 1.5M. Does anyone have in-depth knowledge of the framing used on cable modems, and how exactly the bandwidth is limited?
Quite a bit of research here: http://mojochan.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/traffic-shaping-with-pfsense/
That's based on real world tests and figures. The conclusion is that 1.5M up for 50M down makes it virtually impossible to actually download at 50 meg in the real world.
Remember that in reality you will need multiple TCP/IP streams and unless it's FTP/HTTP more than just ACKs to get anywhere near 50 meg.
1 - Our consumers are stupid their main concern is price
That's basically the root cause of most problems in the UK - people are stupid and only concerned with price. They make almost no effort to educate themselves about anything.
Ignitionnet
20-09-2008, 18:45
Popper, this makes Virgin Media's ratio look weaker still:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=163938&site=cdn
Liberty Global Inc. has launched a 120 Mbit/s broadband service in the Netherlands using EuroDocsis 3.0 gear, and says it plans to roll out the equipment and launch similar services throughout Europe in the coming 15 months. (See UPC Deploys EuroDocsis 3.0.)
I am amused massively by this bit:
The service, which the company has developed with Cisco Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: CSCO - message board), is being offered with a 120 Mbit/s top speed, though a package with a maximum downlink speed of 60 Mbit/s is also available.
As I understand that Cisco is the kit that VM are using also, however UPC / Liberty are also using Cisco modems and are offering the following services:
http://www.satpimps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92637
UPC said it is the first to deploy the new technology in Europe. “With the new product we offer far greater speeds that ADSL or VDSL, at least five times as fast.†UPC will use the Cisco EPC3000 EuroDOCSIS 3.0 modem, which it also demonstrates at the IBC show.
The cabler plans to roll out the product across its entire Dutch footprint during the next few months. Pricing is yet to be announced, “we know our competitors are also listening,†said Karsten. There will be two tiers: a 60 Mbps (6 Mbps upstream) and a 120 Mbps version (12 Mbps upstream). The top tier will retail “well below 100 euros a monthâ€Â. Before the end of the year, UPC also expects to offer the product to its customers in Austria and Switzerland (Cablecom). Next year, other countries will follow.
Why oh why didn't ntl:Telewest sell out to Liberty and be assimilated into the UPC family :(
VM should set the upload to 2meg if they possibly can. Even if 1.5 will only just manage acks and I believe it will, just, they're ruining their bragging (and publicity) party by having it so close that these debates have legs. It makes them look very "cheap" too.
Ignitionnet
21-09-2008, 17:31
Bit annoying also that UPC bought ntl's Irish network which was as anyone who might have worked over there knows in an appauling state.
Part way through a 300 million Euro network upgrade programme and there they have 1Mbit upstream on their 10Mbit service and 1.5Mbit on the 20Mbit. No doubt DOCSIS 3 will follow at some point soon as it is for the rest of the UPC Europe network.
VM can't be bothered to spend that kind of money on network so are quite happy to bodge by sticking kit either side, which while it kinda works with the analogue switch off freeing up spectrum on the download side the total lack of interest in access network spend shows up badly on the upload side.
---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:29 ----------
VM should set the upload to 2meg if they possibly can. Even if 1.5 will only just manage acks and I believe it will, just, they're ruining their bragging (and publicity) party by having it so close that these debates have legs. It makes them look very "cheap" too.
You're forgetting Horace that customers don't want upload :rolleyes:
VM's broadband product man doesn't care about providing it so long as the PR can wave the higher download speed in people's faces. It's not about what the product is or how good it is but how well it can be sold sadly.
Yes they do look cheap, just look at the overbuild / line extension numbers on VM's figures, then check out other cable companies. VM spend a fraction of most on their actual RF network, they keep up fine for advertising spend though.
AbyssUnderground
21-09-2008, 17:47
Maybe its time to open another pointless petition that this forum seems so popular for about the lack of upload on VM and that customers really DO want more upload :D
Ignitionnet
21-09-2008, 18:57
Maybe its time to open another pointless petition that this forum seems so popular for about the lack of upload on VM and that customers really DO want more upload :D
Be nice, don't want to overwork the product manager giving him yet more customer opinions to ignore.
Wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for how ignorant VM are of the competition. UPC offer 20/1.5 for 40 euros a month, their main competitor, Eircom, offer a top package of 7.6Mbit / 672k with a 50GB a month limit for 48.40E a month.
Meanwhile in the UK we alledgedly have all this fantastic competition with all the LLU operators and the rest and VM sit on their laurel cushioned arse trying to palm us off with 20/768k and have spend the past 2 years telling us how worshipful we should be of 50Mbit/1.5Mbit which you'll have to be careful of else you won't be able to even reach 50Mbit if you download the wrong way. The same upstream UPC offer on the network they had to rebuild from the appauling standard ntl / Chorus left it in.
adrian1971
21-09-2008, 20:49
well said, drop everything down to 10mb and kill the traffic managment,
oh and drop the bills a little too :)
well said, drop everything down to 10mb and kill the traffic managment,
oh and drop the bills a little too :)
no! i want to download as fast as possible, if i had to choose between 10mb without traffic management and the current 20mb, i'd take the 20mb
no! i want to download as fast as possible, if i had to choose between 10mb without traffic management and the current 20mb, i'd take the 20mb
Except, you dont download any faster with the new all day STM, do you? 20 minute usage then capped down to 5Mbit, may as well jsut be on 10Mbit unrestricted.
And if you only download overnight, just proves my point even more.
10mb without shaping is faster than 20 in stm hours though :P
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