View Full Version : Virgin Media - STM [BBC Watchdog]
Hi Guys
I feel your pain as i live in one of the main area's [Haringey] which is Traffic
Managed all the time.
The only way we can all get this sorted is to complain to the right place
which is mainley "BBC Watchdog" who every one knows in the UK.
All we have to do is to go to the following link and fill in a complaint form.
BBC Watchdog Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
We need all the people we can to complain as the more complaints the
the better.
Regards, Jagz
PS: Please give your views as well. Thanks
frogstamper
20-04-2008, 03:48
Nice one Jaqz64, Ive just filled out my complaint form concerning stm and Phorm, lets hope enough people do this to get Watchdog on the case. At the moment VM are getting an easy ride, they certainly wont want to be on Watchdog.
I applaud you enthusiasm, unfortunately I doubt complaining to Watchdog will bother VM that much even if it makes the show.
The probable answer they will give involves trials and this nasty mythical 3% of users that are affecting everybody that they are clamping down on:rolleyes:.
The average person watching the programme will think oh what a nice company dealing with these nasty people in order to help me.
"Individual People are intelligent, People as a whole are Supid"
/Cynic mode off
You've got to think ahead of your self mate ....
At least if it does make the show tons of Existing or New Virgin Media users who
ain't aware of the STM been applyed to Boardband will be aware via the show.
More and more complaints will come filling plus any new users who are thinking of
moving to Virgin Media will know through BBC Watchdog.
"""""" Please enter post in this section to confirm your have filled a compaint. """""""""
Cheers, Jagz
BOB+THE+BRIT
20-04-2008, 07:21
You've got to think ahead of your self mate ....
At least if it does make the show tons of Existing or New Virgin Media users who
ain't aware of the STM been applied to Broadband will be aware via the show.
More and more complaints will come filling plus any new users who are thinking of
moving to Virgin Media will know through BBC Watchdog.
"""""" Please enter post in this section to confirm your have filled a compaint. """""""""
Cheers, Jagz
:beer: BUY THE MAN A BEER:
saabmania2
20-04-2008, 07:39
I've done mine :D made me feel better even if they don't do anything :angel:
great idea, filled in.
lets pass this on...
a question, how much do ads on TV cost? I say we all chip in and make an VM attack ad of some sort.
Hi Guys
I feel your pain as i live in one of the main area's [Haringey] which is Traffic
Managed all the time.
The only way we can all get this sorted is to complain to the right place
which is mainley "BBC Watchdog" who every one knows in the UK.
All we have to do is to go to the following link and fill in a complaint form.
BBC Watchdog Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
We need all the people we can to complain as the more complaints the
the better.
Regards, Jagz
PS: Please give your views as well. Thanks
Nice 1 mate, I have just completed the form, and the below is what I put:
Virgin Media are STILL advertising their broadband as "unlimited" when they have a new Traffic Management (STM) policy in place, which is is very obviously NOT unlimited, on the contrary, they ARE limiting customers bandwidth as much as they can.
Also, Virgin are involved with former SPYWARE company PHORM that intends to "snoop" on everyone, they can see EVERY page customers visits, EVERY single letter & word on the page, and they plan to sell this information to ad companies, now this is ILLEGAL, there has been OFFICIAL bodies investigating, the latest of which is 80/20 Thinking, and they have stated that this new "SPYWARE" from phorm is ILLEGAL!!
I would be very grateful if you could investigate these issues as in mine AND others' eyes, Virgin Media cannot wait to come up with ideas to screw over its customers, they advertise a service as "unlimited" but they limit you COUNTLESS times a day, all they are interested in is gaining more customers and somehow cramming on more & more customers, BUT they ARE NOT interested in giving people speeds that WE PAY FOR!!
Im not sure if they will take notice, but SOMETHING has to be done to show VM that they CANNOT take the pee, take all our money and not give much back in return.
RemoveDUsername1
20-04-2008, 12:32
Finally found the one I needed out of the list :)
Computers and communication
Thanks, filed my complaint too.
Add another complaint form to the list.
Hondacurver
20-04-2008, 18:34
Just filled mine in here is the quote
"Having had broadband since the start, and had free upgrades I now find i have serious issues.
Had major problems since going to 20mb max speed around 4-6mb and the usual crap of it my router, anti-virus software!!!
Had engineer out yesterday who told me that my area NN9 Corby Northants WAS OVER SUBSCRIBED!!!! and that I would NEVER be able to get 20mb.
This morning (Sunday) i find my d/l speed is 1.79mb a total joke, i have been paying £37.99 since i went to 20mb. How do I stand for getting my money back? and secondly free upgrade from 4-10mb is only gonna make things worse here. It would have been nice for someone to tell me this 12 months ago then I could have gone elsewhere instead of still being ripped off by a bunch of Ar******s "
TraxData
20-04-2008, 18:38
Add me to that list.
Robbie G
20-04-2008, 18:41
Completed, with an adapted version of TehTech's comments:
Virgin Media are still advertising their broadband as "unlimited" when they have a new Traffic Management (STM) policy in place, which is very obviously not unlimited. On the contrary, they are limiting customers’ bandwidth as much as they can.
Also, Virgin are involved with former spyware company Phorm, who intend to "snoop" on Virgin Media's customers. They can see every page a customer visits, and they plan to sell this information to advertising companies. This is illegal. There have been official bodies investigating, the latest of which is 80/20 Thinking, and they have stated that this new spyware from Phorm is illegal.
I would be very grateful if you could investigate these issues as in my and others' eyes, Virgin Media cannot wait to come up with ideas to minimise their commitments to existing customers. They advertise a service as "unlimited" but they limit you every day. All they are interested in is gaining more customers at the expense of existing customers' quality of service.
Cobbydaler
20-04-2008, 18:53
Everyone who is stating in their complaint that 80/20 Thinking are an official body are incorrect, they are a consultancy...
Link (http://www.8020thinking.com/)
Robbie G
20-04-2008, 19:31
Oops. That's what you get for copy-pasting! Thanks for clearing that up.
I've posted a complaint also. I posted free form.
Virgin Media advertise their cable services as 'unlimited' however they take every opportunity to limit the user with every chance they have. At the moment a 'large' (4mb) tier customer like myself, can download no more than 800mb between 4-9pm. If this limit is exceeded my connection is mamed to 1mb. This is a severe cut in service. I have two computers in my household, a wii, and an xbox 360 all using the internet connection. It would only take two iPlayer episodes, or a game demo from the Xbox 360 Live marketplace and my connection would be choked for 5 hours from the limit being met. This is unacceptable, and not transparent in their bold 'knocking of other providers' advertising. They say only the top 5% of their customers would reach the limit, but where they get these figures from I do not know. How many consumers own an Xbox, Wii or have a home network these days? This cannot be right. Virgin media are often seen in stores such as Currys bundling their services with a free subscription to Xbox Live. What good would that be if you are punished for using it?
watzizname
21-04-2008, 04:42
I've posted a complaint also. I posted free form.
Virgin Media advertise their cable services as 'unlimited' however they take every opportunity to limit the user with every chance they have. At the moment a 'large' (4mb) tier customer like myself, can download no more than 800mb between 4-9pm. If this limit is exceeded my connection is mamed to 1mb. This is a severe cut in service. I have two computers in my household, a wii, and an xbox 360 all using the internet connection. It would only take two iPlayer episodes, or a game demo from the Xbox 360 Live marketplace and my connection would be choked for 5 hours from the limit being met. This is unacceptable, and not transparent in their bold 'knocking of other providers' advertising. They say only the top 5% of their customers would reach the limit, but where they get these figures from I do not know. How many consumers own an Xbox, Wii or have a home network these days? This cannot be right. Virgin media are often seen in stores such as Currys bundling their services with a free subscription to Xbox Live. What good would that be if you are punished for using it?
Bravo mate, very nicely put:clap:
I've posted a complaint also. I posted free form.
It's spelt "maimed".
Other than that, fantastic argument.
Everyone who is stating in their complaint that 80/20 Thinking are an official body are incorrect, they are a consultancy...
Link (http://www.8020thinking.com/)
They are being paid to do a certain job, so this makes them "official bodies"
cook1984
22-04-2009, 22:34
See my thread about iPlayer: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33649022-bbc-iplayer-goes-hd-time-drop.html#post34780957
This debunks the myth that only 5% of users are affected, and also shows that there are clear limits defined by Virgin on how much iPlayer you can watch.
You know I started a thread about letting people know about STM and the deplorable 75% throttle, but I get amassed by VM lovers... Im amazed this thread hasnt been ambushed yet either :P
Would be good if it did get on the show, perhaps they will ask the question "Why 75%?".
cook1984
23-04-2009, 00:03
75% is not accurate. Your download speed drops by 75%, but your upload speed drops too. The total loss is more like 85-90%.
Here is my complaint to the ASA:
Virgin Media claims that this service is "unlimited". If you read the fine print at http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html , it turns out that it is not unlimited.
For example, 1 hour of BBC iPlayer HD requires approximately 1200MB of data to be transferred. According to the above web page, an L size user would only be able to watch 1 hour of HD TV in the evening and an M size user about 40 minutes. Even for standard definition programmes which require about 600MB per hour, an M user could only watch for about 1 hour 15 minutes.
Of course, BBC iPlayer is not the only application affected, all internet applications and web sites are similarly limited. The decrease in speed is states as 75%, however they also decrease the upload speed (the 75% refers only to download speed) so in fact the real amount is well over 80%. When speed is reduced that far, it is no longer possible to watch HD or standard definition programmes on iPlayer or any other service.
These limits are clear, measurable and affect all users. Virgin claim that they only affect 5% of customers, but the iPlayer alone is extremely popular with millions of users (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/bbc_iplayer_20_sneak_preview.html , five million page views a day).
In the past, Virgin Media has claimed that it's throttling of broadband speeds was "normal network management", however many ISPs now offer truly unlimited service without throttling, notably Sky, Be Unlimited O2.
Virgin Media also claims that it's broadband is "fibre optic". This is not the case. Similar to BT running fibre to their local exchanges, they run fibre optic cable to their green boxes but the cable from there to the customer's house is copper. Fibre optic broadband is usually taken to mean fibre optic all the way to the home. It is not clear how Virgin's system is that different from BT's. Furthermore, Virgin use an analogue transmission system where as fibre optic broadband is always digital.
Fibre optic broadband is characterised by it's ability to provide a symmetrical connection, i.e. one where the download and upload speeds are the same and usually in the order of 100Mb or more. Virgin's fastest product only manages 50Mb download an 1.5Mb upload, so is neither symmetrical nor fast enough for the common definition of the technology.
And again as I pointed out in the other thread you created (rather than dredging this one up from a year ago)
Once the BB M upgrades complete all M/L and XL customers will be able to stream SD iPlayer without any issue at all
The BBC SD iPlayer streams are 1.5Mbit. 10Mbit STM drops the download to 2.5Mbit
Watchdog won't be interested. there was a thread before about their 'Unlimited' campaign.
I contacted them to ask why they wouldn't include Virgin Media Cable on the list. they wasn't interested.
I don't do conspiracy theories :)
Thread (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/25/33640620-gadget-show-unlimited-broadband-campaign.html)
Campaign (http://fwd.five.tv/gadget-show/blog/unlimited-broadband)
Turkey Machine
23-04-2009, 00:13
And again as I pointed out in the other thread you created (rather than dredging this one up from a year ago)
Once the BB M upgrades complete all M/L and XL customers will be able to stream SD iPlayer without any issue at all
The BBC SD iPlayer streams are 1.5Mbit. 10Mbit STM drops the download to 2.5Mbit
There is a problem because while they're 1.5Mbit, there's a lot of overhead with iPlayer, especially since they've migrated from WMV to Adobe's tripe. Also, what's to stop BBC increasing the bitrates of their online content in future, so SD is for instance 2Mbit, HD is 10Mbit.
Technically it is 75%, with 20mb you will rarely ever get 2.5MB/s just over 2MB/s, so when you work that out with the 75% it is correct.
But your other points are true in your complain to the ASA, but unfortunately the ASA is for advertisements and not the products offered to customers, that then falls into the lap of the Trading Standards.
But, after telling them I gave them a 1 month notice, they phoned me up begging me to come back.
And got the usual lies of "every ISP throttles customers" and "ADSL will only give you a maxium 5mb/s".
I had 2 options..
Upgrade to 50mb, but pay the £80 fees, they wouldnt wave the £30 fee if I installed the modem and router and get the MAC address in their system by phoning them, and give me a -£67.50 to the bill which would have made it £12.50 (why they couldnt just remove some fees instead of this bill removal idea is beyond me).
or
Stay on 20mb (which I only really need) and have 3 months £41.60 and 9 months with near £5 taken off the bill, i.e. 1 year contract (and ill probably would have to phone up to keep the deal going) and then managed to get the 1st £41.60 bill free.
So I have given them 1 last chance, with an agreement to the year contract that if Traffic Management becomes too severe or if technical problems become persistant, then I can back out. There was no way I would have stayed another year with them with problems without a get out clause.
If the BBC did increase the HD stream to 10Mbit they would lock out most ADSL customers.
Even anything above 5Mbit will be pushing a lot of lines
And again as I pointed out in the other thread you created (rather than dredging this one up from a year ago)
Once the BB M upgrades complete all M/L and XL customers will be able to stream SD iPlayer without any issue at all
The BBC SD iPlayer streams are 1.5Mbit. 10Mbit STM drops the download to 2.5Mbit
But the HD streams are 3.5Mbit.
Yes they are - your point being?
Yes they are - your point being?
My point is that STM will affect users watching iplayer in HD.
Yes it will - still not sure what your point is?
Yes it will - still not sure what your point is?
The BBC SD iPlayer streams are 1.5Mbit. 10Mbit STM drops the download to 2.5Mbit
You use the SD as an example and say there won't be a problem.
You say that STM drops a users speed down to 2.5Mbit. A HD stream is 3.5Mbit. what was the speed of the 10Mbit before it was STMd?
Jonathan90
23-04-2009, 02:31
Before it was stm'd it would be 10mbit?
The BBC SD iPlayer streams are 1.5Mbit. 10Mbit STM drops the download to 2.5Mbit
You use the SD as an example and say there won't be a problem.
You say that STM drops a users speed down to 2.5Mbit. A HD stream is 3.5Mbit. what was the speed of the 10Mbit before it was STMd?
Yes I know. Where in the marketing for Virgin's BBI service does it say that anything below 50Mbit is suitable for HD?
---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 ----------
The BBC not everyone will be able to stream HD. That is why they have the iPlayer Download manager
*sloman*
23-04-2009, 12:58
Hi Guys
I feel your pain as i live in one of the main area's [Haringey] which is Traffic
Managed all the time.
The only way we can all get this sorted is to complain to the right place
which is mainley "BBC Watchdog" who every one knows in the UK.
All we have to do is to go to the following link and fill in a complaint form.
BBC Watchdog Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml
We need all the people we can to complain as the more complaints the
the better.
Regards, Jagz
PS: Please give your views as well. Thanks
I complained a couple of months ago about VM's STM. Mainly because VM advertise unlimited BB!
How can it be unlimited when my speed is limited for 5hrs limiting the amount i can download!
Zhadnost
23-04-2009, 13:19
I don't see what all the fuss is about.
<fx>Lights touch paper and runs.</fx>
Everyone who is stating in their complaint that 80/20 Thinking are an official body are incorrect, they are a consultancy...
Link (http://www.8020thinking.com/)
id give you a good rep for that Cobby, i tryed, but the rep icon on the thread page 1 and 2 seems to be missing, but it's there for all other threads i looked at just now, weard.....:erm:
but they are here in the reply page 3 ,wearder.....see pic as proof
perhaps they got confused about simons 80/20 Thinking ( do you still read CF simon ?)
its appears *PI have finally had some words to say about DPI,BT etc, and Alex gets a mention too ;) he can have a few words with simon perhaps :angel:
* (their not an "official body" in any way attached to the Govt eather, just as "industry practice" does NOT make law, neather does a collective of industry types make an "official body" in Govt no matter what the likes of Phorm, Experian Credit reference agencys interested in DPI use for profit use etc advocates ....)
I complained a couple of months ago about VM's STM. Mainly because VM advertise unlimited BB!
How can it be unlimited when my speed is limited for 5hrs limiting the amount i can download!
If you have a car that does 160mph, and you can only drive at 60, does that limit the amount you can drive?
If you have a car that does 160mph, and you can only drive at 60, does that limit the amount you can drive?
No but with Virgin they gave you a car that does 160mph and after 20 mins of driving at 160mph they limit the car remotely to 60mph. so it has hit a limitation of driving at 160mph for longer than 20 mins resulting in it being restricted to 60mph.
You can't get to where you were heading to now at the expected arrival time deduced from driving at 160mph. it will now take you longer to get there because you have been limited to half of the required speed needed to meet that target.
what was your analogy again? :D
Welshchris
24-04-2009, 01:35
ive been STM'd in the past for not even downloading over 5mb.
One example of this was back in may 2008, i had been to London and my PC was switched off and so was all my computer equipment inc modem and router and i was away for almost 3 days. Came home and turned it all back on and the only thing that downloaded was an Antivirus update. When i went to use the net it was very sluggish so i posted on the newsgroups and i was told that i had been STMd because i had downloaded atleast 10GB of stuff since that morning. As i said my modem had been off and the train i caught from London wasnt until 5:30pm taking almost 3 and a half hrs to get to Swansea. NO ONE had a key to gain access to my flat to use my PC and yet they still claimed i was in the wrong. I have read so many people on here and on the newsgroups claiming they have been wrongfully STM'd its unbelieveable. I do believe STM needs to be in place to ensure an overall good network capacity BUT the current levels such as they r on 20mb should be raised as they are very low and the STM problems that cause STM to kick in when u havnt done anything should have been sorted by now.
Turkey Machine
24-04-2009, 16:01
ive been STM'd in the past for not even downloading over 5mb.
One example of this was back in may 2008, i had been to London and my PC was switched off and so was all my computer equipment inc modem and router and i was away for almost 3 days. Came home and turned it all back on and the only thing that downloaded was an Antivirus update. When i went to use the net it was very sluggish so i posted on the newsgroups and i was told that i had been STMd because i had downloaded atleast 10GB of stuff since that morning. As i said my modem had been off and the train i caught from London wasnt until 5:30pm taking almost 3 and a half hrs to get to Swansea. NO ONE had a key to gain access to my flat to use my PC and yet they still claimed i was in the wrong. I have read so many people on here and on the newsgroups claiming they have been wrongfully STM'd its unbelieveable. I do believe STM needs to be in place to ensure an overall good network capacity BUT the current levels such as they r on 20mb should be raised as they are very low and the STM problems that cause STM to kick in when u havnt done anything should have been sorted by now.
Either that was a definite wrong case of STM, or your modem's MAC address has been cloned and *that* has been the target intended to be throttled.
Fibre optic broadband is usually taken to mean fibre optic all the way to the home. It is not clear how Virgin's system is that different from BT's.
I believe I'm a case that highlights the difference. My attenuation on a DSL line is over 60db. This equates to about a 6km run of cable between me and my local phone exchange (it probably isn't this far, some of the attenuation is probably due to old cable). This puts my max ADSL broadband speed at well under 1Mb in practise.
With Virgin's fibre to the distribution boxes, this limitation does not apply and I can theoretically get any of their advertised speeds. Notice I say theoretically. I won't continue to whinge about my ongoing problems on this thread. Suffice to say I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.
The bottom line is your speed on fibre to the exchange is a postcode lottery. Your speed on fibre to the distn box is not. (It then becomes a UBR lottery but that's a whole different story).
Sir John Luke
25-04-2009, 13:12
id give you a good rep for that Cobby, i tryed, but the rep icon on the thread page 1 and 2 seems to be missing, but it's there for all other threads i looked at just now, weard.....:erm:
but they are here in the reply page 3 ,wearder.....see pic as proof
I'd hazard a guess that you can't rep posts from 12 month's ago? :) More intriguing is how you managed to bypass the swear filter ;)
joglynne
25-04-2009, 13:57
I'd hazard a guess that you can't rep posts from 12 month's ago? :) More intriguing is how you managed to bypass the swear filter ;)
You cannot rep any post made over 28 days ago (or 5 days if the thread is closed)
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/103/33602472-the-reputation-system-facts-and-figures.html
AndyCambs
25-04-2009, 16:17
Could always do away with STM then and have download allowances like IDNet (http://www.idnet.net/solutions/home/broadband/)?
Ignitionnet
25-04-2009, 16:33
Or maybe even one of the options at this thread (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33649142-when-50m-rollout-done-new-tier.html)
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.