View Full Version : Would you move to a Non Phorm ISP
As the Title Say's. Would you move Your Broadband from VM to a NON Phorm ISP if VM start to use the PHORM system, Or would you move ALL your services from VM if they start to roll out the Phorm System.
Personally i intend to move the bloody lot if they do. Why should i give VM my business if they intend to sell my private data to a known spyware company. What gives them the right to make money from my personal data in the first place.
******EDIT******
Can a mod or Admin please edit my poll to say " Still not sure at this time" i had not had enough coffee when i posted the poll. :LOL:
I've been thinking about this for a few weeks now, and decided that I would move suppliers.
As for moving all my services, i'd not really have a lot of choice as I only have broadband and phone, so i'd have to get a BT line for ADSL.
If it's only targeted advertising they'll be doing, I'll stick with VM and use AdBlock.
Would dump VM like a hot brick.
Already making enquiries into alternatives for all my services.
If it's only targeted advertising they'll be doing, I'll stick with VM and use AdBlock.
Its not. See my sig for more info.
Its not. See my sig for more info.
If it's illegal, it'll be removed. If it's not, I have no problem with it. A business like Phorm isn't going to steal my credit card details or redirect me to phishing sites, and thus I have nothing to worry about.
******EDIT******
Can a mod or Admin please edit my poll to say " Still not sure at this time" i had not had enough coffee when i posted the poll. :LOL:
Poll edited.
Poll edited.
Thanks Gavin
---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------
If it's illegal, it'll be removed. If it's not, I have no problem with it. A business like Phorm isn't going to steal my credit card details or redirect me to phishing sites, and thus I have nothing to worry about.
Well good for you.
Would it be ok then for the post office to open your mail and then from what they have seen insert adverts in the letter. ?
Voted yes to BB as that is all I have, this would mean a downgrade in speeds, I'm willing to put up with that for privacies sake, and the speeds should be improving with time / upgrades.
Is there are definite roll out date for Phorm ?
Voted yes to BB as that is all I have, this would mean a downgrade in speeds, I'm willing to put up with that for privacies sake, and the speeds should be improving with time / upgrades.
Is there are definite roll out date for Phorm ?
VM are keeping that close to there chests at the moment. I don't think its a case of IF but a case of WHEN and how they can limit the damage to there name . VM don't give a flying watsit about your privacy they only see £ signs.
I'd stay with VM. Firstly I think it's being exagerated what Phorm is (eg, people saying they'll be editing pages to insert their own ads which is bs). Secondly, I have the choice between a 20mb service or a ~1mb service. Thirdly, if it became a problem thing, i'd just send all my (and the houses) HTTP traffic through my own proxy server so they wouldn't see any HTTP traffic at all.
Thirdly, if it became a problem thing, i'd just send all my (and the houses) HTTP traffic through my own proxy server so they wouldn't see any HTTP traffic at all.
So there is a way for this Phorm invasion of privacy to be controlled / stopped :shrug: Invisible surfing ?
There are an awful lot of people that think Phorm is just about adverts on your screen and an ad blocker is all that they need. there are an awful lot of people that think that parliament won't be abolished in May 2010 :D
---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 ----------
I'd stay with VM. Firstly I think it's being exagerated what Phorm is (eg, people saying they'll be editing pages to insert their own ads which is bs). Secondly, I have the choice between a 20mb service or a ~1mb service. Thirdly, if it became a problem thing, i'd just send all my (and the houses) HTTP traffic through my own proxy server so they wouldn't see any HTTP traffic at all.
Will that stop the online light on your VM issued modem flashing? :)
slowcoach
19-04-2008, 11:20
Phorm isn't a good thing for deviants. Anyone looking over your shoulder will know what you have been up to. ;)
NTLVictim
19-04-2008, 11:24
I'd stay as long as there was a rock-solid way of defeating Phorm (including testing proof).
I'm running Dephormation at the mo, as a matter of course as well as Noscript, Adblock, Trackmenot, etc.
Oh and Dev.. most of what you think you know is wrong, sorry.
Will that stop the online light on your VM issued modem flashing? :)
Why would I want that? :rolleyes:
I'd stay as long as there was a rock-solid way of defeating Phorm (including testing proof).
I'm running Dephormation at the mo, as a matter of course as well as Noscript, Adblock, Trackmenot, etc.
Oh and Dev.. most of what you think you know is wrong, sorry.
What part?
I do *think* it's exagerated, there is no evidence they change pages at will.
I do have a choice between 20mb (cable) and ~1mb (adsl)
Sending all my HTTP traffic via a proxy will stop them seeing it
The Jackal
19-04-2008, 11:34
I don't understand the point of this thread.
Where can you get a non phorm isp when all dsl traffic routes through BT's infrastructure. ?
As an ISP I can't offer my customers phorm free DSL since ultimately the traffic will still have to come to me VIA BT.
DocDutch
19-04-2008, 11:39
I have a funny feeling that all ISP's will get some form of Phorm soon, even the Be's, pipex, talktalks, you name them they'll have it sooner or later. and not a single thing that you can do about it other then say a satelite broadband connection
zing_deleted
19-04-2008, 11:40
Voted no because its becoming evident there will be tools available to block it
I don't understand the point of this thread.
Where can you get a non phorm isp when all dsl traffic routes through BT's infrastructure. ?
As an ISP I can't offer my customers phorm free DSL since ultimately the traffic will still have to come to me VIA BT.
If you change infrastructure to phone line. it would be even funnier :D
I don't understand the point of this thread.
Where can you get a non phorm isp when all dsl traffic routes through BT's infrastructure. ?
As an ISP I can't offer my customers phorm free DSL since ultimately the traffic will still have to come to me VIA BT.
LLU does NOT route through any of BT's network. So for anyone that wants to avoid Phorm, They just need to go LLU.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/publications/broadband/dsl_facts/LLUbackground.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_loop_unbundling
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=21&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uknof.org.uk%2Fuknof7%2FKenne dy-LLU.pdf&ei=I9AJSI38MoHWQI7YpP0L&usg=AFQjCNGGW6uFbv-EpbXWt5voMl-uGzwEuA&sig2=rn4czbIPJZLWK5a7gPa1hA
You can find which LLU operators are in your local exchange here (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/).
Wow guys i cant belive im reading some of these comments seriously, some people want to catch up on things before its too late, id rather have no isp at all rather than let companies like phorm gather all my data and send it off to companies.
Some of you TRUST this dodgy spyware company? ive seen the damage they did in there previous existence as 121 media belive me this company are as trustwothy as harold shipman being your doctor.
Virgin Media is denting its relationship with the customers every day it is associated with this outfit, what they should be doing is coming out and dumping these guys and there silly ideas and creaming off all the bb customers bt is going to lose pretty soon :).
Well good for you.
Would it be ok then for the post office to open your mail and then from what they have seen insert adverts in the letter. ?
Yes, if my eyes had AdBlock.
What annoys me most about this (apart from the arrogance of Phorm) is the attitude that the ISPs are taking in that they think my data is a commodity that they have the right to sell.
If I was in any way to consider a system such as Webwise it would have to be me selling my data to Phorm, not my ISP.
EDIT: In fact, Kent, give me a call and we can negotiate a way to get straight to the source. Imagine that! First you had to trick people into d/l'ing your spyware, then you tricked the ISPs into installing your spyware, now you're being made an offer to buy the data from the only person who can legally give it to you. Me! Give me a call and I'll tell you what I'm interested in (once your cheque has cleared) and you can serve me as many ads as you like. Do you need to know if I have any blocking software installed or not, or whether I have my brain set to filter and ignore web ads, like 99.99% of the population do?
Adblock wont stop them collecting your data they sit in the middle of your communications sorry to say, in the future they could easily change there kit or software T&C's and collect even more of your data without you examining the tiniest small print and belive me you would not know.
Yes, if my eyes had AdBlock.
Amazing :rolleyes:
Adblock wont stop them collecting your data they sit in the middle of your communications sorry to say, in the future they could easily change there kit or software T&C's and collect even more of your data without you examining the tiniest small print and belive me you would not know.
The only thing they do with my data is create adverts based on it. Adverts which Adblock takes care of.
I voted unsure, but its unlikely I would move just because of a few ads.
Hans Gruber
19-04-2008, 12:57
I'd stick with them for now, but as soon as Be or Sky were enabled I'd be gone.
I voted to move everything, but everything I have with VM is broadband. :)
NTLVictim
19-04-2008, 13:38
The only thing they do with my data is create adverts based on it. Adverts which Adblock takes care of.
Yeah, and Satan uses a snowplough to get to work.:rolleyes:
I would move eveything, for me thats BB & Phone. This would be quite easy as i already have a semi active bt line
If it's illegal, it'll be removed. If it's not, I have no problem with it. A business like Phorm isn't going to steal my credit card details or redirect me to phishing sites, and thus I have nothing to worry about.
Going on Phorm's (in their various guises) past record I think you should perhaps worry...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178282,00.html
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Spyware-Rootkit-Maker-Stops-Distribution/
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/index.php?p=820
Leopards and spots springs to mind...
But, each to their own. If you're unworried by a company with that pedegree installing kit at your ISP that's fine by me.
BT line being installed 24th, then I'm off to either aquiss or merula... VM have already lost me as a TV/Telco/Mobile user.
xspeedyx
19-04-2008, 14:26
So you gonna goto BT that already use phorm come on ppl FF will sort out phorm and as of yet VM have not said weather this is a opt in or opt service so I am gonna wait until I know that then get ****ed if need be I voted no as I have to stick vm cheaper for me
He didnt say he was going on with bt just he was getting a bt line in, his isp is going to be with aquiss or merula (they have confirmed they ARENT looking to install this Dodgy spyware companys kit at there source). totally different from going with an isp that actually implements this middleman spying.
edit- if vm ever do go live with this service or ask me to be part of any trial (the likes of which bt are still going to illegally carry out with no guaranteed opt out) i will see this as a breach of vm's t&c's and will leave if they have any argument with myself ill see them in court should be fun :).
So you gonna goto BT that already use phorm come on ppl FF will sort out phorm and as of yet VM have not said weather this is a opt in or opt service so I am gonna wait until I know that then get ****ed if need be I voted no as I have to stick vm cheaper for me
exactly, nothing is set in concrete so why move now?
Big business or the Government will decide who uses the internet and what they do on it very soon.
I can see it coming.
No flames please, just thinking out loud :)
Its the whole association with phorm and there underhand tactics in this and there previous exisistence as 121 media dev, once all people get wind of it apart from the tecched out or already informed ones lots will leave with that scared feeling.
Big business or the Government will decide who uses the internet and what they do on it very soon.
I can see it coming.
No flames please, just thinking out loud :)
I would have the the tin-foil helmet would stop that sort of leakage.:D
I've already done it - had my BT line installed on Wednesday and my Acquiss (http://www.aquiss.net/ref/index.php?v=1&t=e&username=blackman)account is being activated on the 29th.
I understand that Phorm hasn't been implemented on VM's network yet, but it's the combination of that, the increasing STM times, the worsening support over the last 12 months and the dreadful performance - I've had more problems since NTL took on the VM name than in the entire 7 years previous that I've been with them.
In short, VM's arrogant attitude and complete disrespect for their customers is what has led me to this.
exactly, nothing is set in concrete so why move now?
@dev - as you asked...
Trust - or in this case, lack of...
This whole deal with Phorm has, I'm afraid, been the final nail in VMs coffin as far as I am concerned.
Frying pans and fires... maybe... this is part of the response from Merula when I enquired of their intentions to partner with Phorm or similar companies.
As primarily a business provider we have no plans to partner with any of these types of services and have never contacted any to this date.
In a changing world it would be impossible to never say never -- but I would be very surprised if something like this happened.
I hope this re-assures you and we hope to hear from you soon.
In stark contrast to anything from VM, their response seems to change according to the prevailing wind. I'm a long standing customer, having started out in the C&W days, this is not a 'knee jerk' reaction but something I have thought about for a while.
Perhaps I should reverse the question and ask 'why stay'?
There will be very many people who are happy to stay with VM (or indeed name your ISP), I respect that.
At least it will free up speeds for everyone else by people leaving - or would virgin media still keep the stm surley not ;)
@dev - as you asked...
Trust - or in this case, lack of...
This whole deal with Phorm has, I'm afraid, been the final nail in VMs coffin as far as I am concerned.
Frying pans and fires... maybe... this is part of the response from Merula when I enquired of their intentions to partner with Phorm or similar companies.
As primarily a business provider we have no plans to partner with any of these types of services and have never contacted any to this date.
In a changing world it would be impossible to never say never -- but I would be very surprised if something like this happened.
I hope this re-assures you and we hope to hear from you soon.
In stark contrast to anything from VM, their response seems to change according to the prevailing wind. I'm a long standing customer, having started out in the C&W days, this is not a 'knee jerk' reaction but something I have thought about for a while.
Perhaps I should reverse the question and ask 'why stay'?
There will be very many people who are happy to stay with VM (or indeed name your ISP), I respect that.
why do i get the feeling that if VM released a similar worded statement, there would be posts along the lines of "yea they have no plans to but that means nothing! they will do it!!!!!"
as to your question, why stay? simple really, cable will always be faster for me, i prefer the "static" IP and the pings are fine. as i said previously in this thread, *if* phorm is actually implemented i'll just send my http traffic via a proxy i'll setup and they'll have nothing to gather then. no point whatsoever in doing anything just because they are talking with them.
Is it not more worrying Dev when Virgin have not released such a statement and have the webwise faq up on there website?
Cable will lag on http with all these redirects mentioned in dr claytons report, the static ip will STILL be linked to your webwise cookie.
Not a question with vm atm with regard to *if* as in when see the webwise faq for clarification as above.
setup all the proxys you want the middleman intercepts all you block it you dont get service as a bt customer was pointed out in the phorm beta forums.
Any more questions?
Is it not more worrying Dev when Virgin have not released such a statement and have the webwise faq up on there website?
Cable will lag on http with all these redirects mentioned in dr claytons report, the static ip will STILL be linked to your webwise cookie.
Not a question with vm atm with regard to *if* as in when see the webwise faq for clarification as above.
setup all the proxys you want the middleman intercepts all you block it you dont get service as a bt customer was pointed out in the phorm beta forums.
Any more questions?
last time i checked they are only [planning to] intercept http traffic, if i have none, they have none to intercept. they can't itnercept all traffic so i'll be routing my http traffic via other non-http methods
RizzyKing
19-04-2008, 16:58
No brainer for me they adopt phorm i leave VM completely. It is not so much phorm as VM's total contempt for us the customer's that will FORCE me to move all service's as we the customer's couldn't make ourselves anymore clear then we have on this issue. Being honest if VM don't get off their backside soon and come out with a statement about all this i might bin them anyway.
Going on Phorm's (in their various guises) past record I think you should perhaps worry...
Leopards and spots springs to mind...
But, each to their own. If you're unworried by a company with that pedegree installing kit at your ISP that's fine by me.
If they start installing stuff like that, VM will drop Phorm.
RizzyKing
19-04-2008, 18:25
Jelly seriously do you really think VM don't know exactly what phorm is or how it works they do and as long as they get their cut they don't care. Because if you do think that and if i thought that i would leave now as i wouldn't want such a tech incompetent company handling my internet let alone anything else.
If they start installing stuff like that, VM will drop Phorm.
VM do not have access to the software on the kit that will be fitted into the pop sites. So pray tell HOW will they know if phorm start to get up to there old tricks again.. ??????
No - I don't pay for the BB so it's not my call :erm:
Jelly seriously do you really think VM don't know exactly what phorm is or how it works they do and as long as they get their cut they don't care. Because if you do think that and if i thought that i would leave now as i wouldn't want such a tech incompetent company handling my internet let alone anything else.
So WHY ARE you STILL with Virgin then, as they are already an incompetent company that LIES, CHEATS, STEALS and now they are considering using PHORM, when WILL they wake up & get their faces outta the weetabix?
As soon as it is public that VM ARE using Phorm, I will drop them like the proverbial!!
NTLVictim
19-04-2008, 20:27
"they can't itnercept all traffic"
Their equipment is inside the ISP. All bets are off.
As soon as it is public that VM ARE using Phorm, I will drop them like the proverbial!!
My feelings as well
---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------
Their equipment is inside the ISP.
They can see everything they WANT to see, Because your data MUST pass through their hub site first.
They can see everything they WANT to see, Because your data MUST pass through their hub site first.
That reminds me of Sid the Sexist when he subscribed to Sky, ended up with a hugely muscled right arm after watching all teh pr0n :p:
Nice to see many people haven't kept up to date on these issues. As Phorm are so happy to tell there investors "we can see all the internet". This isn't about ads, its about trust and transparency with my data.
If your with a Phorm ISP all of your internet traffic can be monitored by phorm. At this point they are claiming they wont look at some things but their patent makes it clear that they can see everything if they so wished including SSL encrypted content.
Now even if you were willing to trust a company with this ones background their is no way anybody can see what these people are profiling as not even the ISP's will be allowed access to the software on these servers even though they are on the ISP's network.
I for one am not willing to trust the word of a company who to this day lie about what they are doing and will try dirty tricks such as editing there own Wiki article to hide what people say against them.
Mick Fisher
20-04-2008, 04:34
I voted 'yes and I would remove all my services' although I have already dumped their bandwidth strapped TV service as unfit for the purpose.
I already have had Be Unlimited for a while now so it is just a matter of getting VM's rapidly worsening offering switched off as and when the time comes.
I must say I am extremely depressed and amazed at the amount of ignorance and apathy being displayed by some about this matter. If you Guys, who think VM's association with the parasite Phorm is OK, don't wake up soon it will be too late. Scumware Companies like Phorm AKA. 121Media are, and what BT and VM will probably soon be, depend wholly on your ignorance and apathy to manipulate you and rip you off.
It's time to stand up and be counted. Enough is enough. :mad:
Jelly seriously do you really think VM don't know exactly what phorm is or how it works they do and as long as they get their cut they don't care. Because if you do think that and if i thought that i would leave now as i wouldn't want such a tech incompetent company handling my internet let alone anything else.
I don't understand what you're saying.
VM do not have access to the software on the kit that will be fitted into the pop sites. So pray tell HOW will they know if phorm start to get up to there old tricks again.. ??????
Phorm can't afford to do that. They'd be found out and taken down.
Originally Posted by Sirius:
VM do not have access to the software on the kit that will be fitted into the pop sites. So pray tell HOW will they know if phorm start to get up to there old tricks again.. ??????
Phorm can't afford to do that. They'd be found out and taken down.
How many users do you imagine would be able to detect, say, a malicious redirect? Or that they were harvesting credit card details?
And, given it took around 6 weeks before VM reluctantly published the statement on trial STM hours, how long do you think it would take to prove Phorm were up to their 'old tricks'?
If and when VM activate Phorm I'll definitely leave, I have the free Sky broadband ready and waiting. Also as some others have mentioned, I'm getting pretty hacked off at the wall of silence from VM about the deployment.
Mick Fisher
20-04-2008, 10:13
I don't understand what you're saying.
Phorm can't afford to do that. They'd be found out and taken down.
Jelly.. are you for real or are you just winding us up.
I hope for your sake you are winding us up cause if you are not then you want to listen up, take off them rose tinted glasses, open up your eyes and see what is going on around you before you get taken for an almighty ride.
The World is not so much of a nice place and decidedly not as fair as you seem to think it is. In reality there are a lot of very greedy people out there who will eat you alive if you give them half a chance. :(
RizzyKing
20-04-2008, 10:24
Jelly the system phorm is planning to implement right now they say it is for targeted ad's. That is the thin end of the wedge for what their system is ultimately capable of doing and that is the problem most of us have. Another big concern is once VM sign on the dotted line they effetively hand over all control with no real way to know what the hell is being done on their network. We have a government that is talking about monitoring all internet traffic and all of a sudden up pops phorm and it's targeted ad system please do some more research Jelly and find out what this system is all about maybe then you will understand the hostility we have towards it. Thats even if you believe that the days of 121media activity are finished which is a stretch.
How many users do you imagine would be able to detect, say, a malicious redirect? Or that they were harvesting credit card details?
And, given it took around 6 weeks before VM reluctantly published the statement on trial STM hours, how long do you think it would take to prove Phorm were up to their 'old tricks'?
Virgin Media are responsible for what goes on their servers. They'd get rid of Phorm if it harmed people's computers.
<Snip>
Thanks for that cliché. Please don't try to teach me life lessons.
Jelly the system phorm is planning to implement right now they say it is for targeted ad's. That is the thin end of the wedge for what their system is ultimately capable of doing and that is the problem most of us have. Another big concern is once VM sign on the dotted line they effetively hand over all control with no real way to know what the hell is being done on their network. We have a government that is talking about monitoring all internet traffic and all of a sudden up pops phorm and it's targeted ad system please do some more research Jelly and find out what this system is all about maybe then you will understand the hostility we have towards it. Thats even if you believe that the days of 121media activity are finished which is a stretch.
The system is there to deliver targeted advertising based on web traffic. I will not see the adverts and thus will be unaffected.
If loads of Virgin Media customers suddenly report unauthorised charges on their credit cards and bank accounts, who would be the prime suspect? Phorm. They're not going to try it.
Virgin Media are responsible for what goes on their servers. They'd get rid of Phorm if it harmed people's computers.
It's won't be on "their servers" -- it'll be on Phorm's "gifted" servers that no VM staff have access to.
The system is there to deliver targeted advertising based on web traffic. I will not see the adverts and thus will be unaffected.
You really believe that this is only about serving targeted adverts?
Go back and read the BBC interview with Sir Tim B-L?
If loads of Virgin Media customers suddenly report unauthorised charges on their credit cards and bank accounts, who would be the prime suspect? Phorm. They're not going to try it.
You've not tried reporting a problem to VM lately, have you
:eh:
It's won't be on "their servers" -- it'll be on Phorm's "gifted" servers that no VM staff have access to.
Which can then be pushed out of the system if theres a problem.
You've not tried reporting a problem to VM lately, have you
:eh:
It won't be a problem so petty as to be reported to VM. The government and loads of watchdogs will be investigating when a huge ISP like Virgin has it's security comprimised
You really believe that this is only about serving targeted adverts?
Go back and read the BBC interview with Sir Tim B-L?
That's the only problem I can see some people having. Your data isn't going to make them as much money as adverts.
RizzyKing
20-04-2008, 12:25
Jelly do you work for phorm because other then phorm employees i havn't seen anyone that says the sort of stuff you do be it out of ignorance or plain out and out deception (phorm pr and suchlike). If you really believe what your saying on here then you either have not looked at the patent for the system phorm is planning to use or you are as i said an employee in someway. Do you really think any of us would waste our time on something as benign as you seem to think this is, we all have lives and a million other more important things to do then complain for the sake of complaining we object to this because of what it is and how badly it can impact us. Please go do some research before posting back.
Why should I research something that isn't going to affect me?
Why should I research something that isn't going to affect me?
Because you could discover that you're disastrously wrong.
The majority of "research" I've seen quoted here is based on 121Media.
The majority of "research" I've seen quoted here is based on 121Media.
It is also about the potential of what could happen to *our* collected data at a later date from a third party. the government thought their data was safe. we even thought it was safe.
@Jelly
Have you read the patent application that relates to Phorms technology?
http://www.freshpatents.com/Targeted-advertising-system-and-method-dt20060921ptan20060212353.php?type=description
It perhaps gives an indication of what direction this may take in the future.
Also, 121Media is still owned by phorm...
http://www.phorm.com/reports/MergerUptdate_Phorm_2May.pdf
The majority of "research" I've seen quoted here is based on 121Media.
I've not seen *any* research on CF based on 121Media.
Start reading, mate!
Sir Tim Berners-Lee interview with BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm)
Data surveillance expert raises illegal wiretap worries (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/04/phorm_ripa/)
Richard Clayton's technical examination of Phorm's Webwise (http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/04/04/the-phorm-webwise-system/)
FIPR's Open Letter to the Information Commissioner (http://www.fipr.org/080317icoletter.html)
and there's a small library of relevant articles (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/) on The Register.
Jelly.. are you for real or are you just winding us up.
I hope for your sake you are winding us up cause if you are not then you want to listen up, take off them rose tinted glasses, open up your eyes and see what is going on around you before you get taken for an almighty ride.
The World is not so much of a nice place and decidedly not as fair as you seem to think it is. In reality there are a lot of very greedy people out there who will eat you alive if you give them half a chance. :(
Good Post :tu:
---------- Post added at 14:26 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------
Which can then be pushed out of the system if theres a problem.
It won't be a problem so petty as to be reported to VM. The government and loads of watchdogs will be investigating when a huge ISP like Virgin has it's security comprimised
That's the only problem I can see some people having. Your data isn't going to make them as much money as adverts.
You really need to stop this windup, Then wake up and smell the coffee because you are not for real.
I honestly think you are here to wind us up or do you work for a company who could do with a few backers for a change ??????.
I've not seen *any* research on CF based on 121Media.
Start reading, mate!
Sir Tim Berners-Lee interview with BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm)
Data surveillance expert raises illegal wiretap worries (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/04/phorm_ripa/)
Richard Clayton's technical examination of Phorm's Webwise (http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/04/04/the-phorm-webwise-system/)
FIPR's Open Letter to the Information Commissioner (http://www.fipr.org/080317icoletter.html)
and there's a small library of relevant articles (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/) on The Register.
going off Richard Claytons report (PDF) (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/080404phorm.pdf) it really isn't a major problem:
Firstly it only checks port 80 and ignores any non-http / encrypted data on it so you'd be pretty stupid to send CC details on the standard HTTP port and unencrypted.
Secondly, if you refuses cookies from the site you visit, you are no longer tracked for that site. If you refuse cookies from webwise.net you are not tracked either. So opting out isn't exactly hard and will stop you being tracked.
Thirdly, the browsers user agent is checked against a white list (IE, only those matching will be tracked) so you can change the user agent of your browser to say 'im wearing a tin foil hat' and you won't be tracked.
As for the redirecting slowing browsing down, yes it will slow it down but its something you won't notice. I'm currently working on site that depending on the URL you use, you could be redirected 4 or 5 times (more than phorm do) and it loads just as fast as with no redirecting.
flowrebmit
20-04-2008, 15:01
going off Richard Claytons report (PDF) (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/080404phorm.pdf) it really isn't a major problem:
Firstly it only checks port 80 and ignores any non-http / encrypted data on it so you'd be pretty stupid to send CC details on the standard HTTP port and unencrypted.
If you take Webwise/Phorm at their word - I wouldn't trust them based on their past reputation. There is nothing to stop them from monitor other ports if all the IP traffic is routed through the DPI kit.
Secondly, if you refuses cookies from the site you visit, you are no longer tracked for that site. If you refuse cookies from webwise.net you are not tracked either. So opting out isn't exactly hard and will stop you being tracked.
If you take Webwise/Phorm at their word. You will still be going through the Webwise/Phorm DPI kit.
Thirdly, the browsers user agent is checked against a white list (IE, only those matching will be tracked) so you can change the user agent of your browser to say 'im wearing a tin foil hat' and you won't be tracked.
If you take Webwise/Phorm at their word.
As for the redirecting slowing browsing down, yes it will slow it down but its something you won't notice. I'm currently working on site that depending on the URL you use, you could be redirected 4 or 5 times (more than phorm do) and it loads just as fast as with no redirecting.
I don't want Webwise/Phorm deceiving my browser's cookie security system by redirection and faking web sites.
If you take Webwise/Phorm at their word - I wouldn't trust them based on their past reputation. There is nothing to stop them from monitor other ports if all the IP traffic is routed through the DPI kit.
If you take Webwise/Phorm at their word. You will still be going through the Webwise/Phorm DPI kit.
If you take Webwise/Phorm at their word.
I don't want Webwise/Phorm deceiving my browser's cookie security system by redirection and faking web sites.
that wasn't based on what Phorm said, it was based on what a 3rd party said about how the system works. I wonder why no one seems to care about the likes of opendns returning false dns records, i mean they cant possible fake sites / log stuff either :rolleyes:
flowrebmit
20-04-2008, 16:06
that wasn't based on what Phorm said, it was based on what a 3rd party said about how the system works. I wonder why no one seems to care about the likes of opendns returning false dns records, i mean they cant possible fake sites / log stuff either :rolleyes:
You winding me up, right? Please read Dr Richard Clayton's paper - it was written from notes after a visit to Phorm. By the sounds of it, you are technically minded, so please read it and tell us where we on this forum have misunderstood what he wrote?
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/080404phorm.pdf
---------- Post added at 16:06 ---------- Previous post was at 16:01 ----------
And yes, for the record all forms of profiling such as that going on with Google and DoubleClick are a worry, but as far as I know none of these are installed in my ISP (my so called trusted ISP conduit to the internet).
This thread seems to be deviating from it's original purpose. There's a huge thread debating the rights and wrongs of phorm and how it operates. Can't this thread be left to it's original purpose.
Vote in the pole, make a post expaining your decision, but don't turn it in to a clone of a thread that's already debating how phorm works.
flowrebmit
20-04-2008, 16:45
:erm: Oops, this isn't the +4000 message monster...:angel:
Hi,
I voted no.
As adsl where I leave is very slow below 768k, and when I did try and get it with Sky it was never connected.
If another cable company was around where I live, I may look into it
You really need to stop this windup, Then wake up and smell the coffee because you are not for real.
I honestly think you are here to wind us up or do you work for a company who could do with a few backers for a change ??????.
Reading through my previous posts, I can see I've not said anything positive about Phorm, but merely that the negatives won't affect me. Stop trying to persuade me to move ISP.
Reading through my previous posts, I can see I've not said anything positive about Phorm, but merely that the negatives won't affect me. Stop trying to persuade me to move ISP.
Please point out the post where i said to you to move or tried to make you move ISP. You can use who ever you want. :LOL:.
Please point out the post where i said to you to move or tried to make you move ISP. You can use who ever you want. :LOL:.
Why should i give VM my business if they intend to sell my private data to a known spyware company. What gives them the right to make money from my personal data in the first place.
VM don't give a flying watsit about your privacy they only see £ signs.
LLU does NOT route through any of BT's network. So for anyone that wants to avoid Phorm, They just need to go LLU.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/publications/broadband/dsl_facts/LLUbackground.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_loop_unbundling
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=21&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uknof.org.uk%2Fuknof7%2FKenne dy-LLU.pdf&ei=I9AJSI38MoHWQI7YpP0L&usg=AFQjCNGGW6uFbv-EpbXWt5voMl-uGzwEuA&sig2=rn4czbIPJZLWK5a7gPa1hA
You can find which LLU operators are in your local exchange here.
A boycott I would say.
NTLVictim
20-04-2008, 19:35
Jelly and Dev are Phorm spinners, perhaps?
I'll stay with Virgin Media but hope Phorm won't be taken up. Then it would be something I won't have to worry about. To that end, I appreciate the work of contributors to the monster Phorm/Webwise thread. Maybe Phorm will be ruled illegal in the end and that will be that.
I don't want to give up my 20MB connection. I also have XL TV, a standard box, a V+ box and phone. It would be a right pain to fix everything up with other suppliers out of protest and I don't propose to do it. If Webwise does happen, I'll use whatever it takes to opt out and hope all will be well. It may not turn out to be as bad as everyone feels it will be. I'd think again if there was ever any evidence to the contrary.
Re: some posts read - Ignorance and apathy were mentioned earlier. I notice that this forum has over 42,000 members. Presumably, many of them will have noticed the thread about Phorm. True that quite a number of members have voted or spoken against Phorm but that still leaves over 41,000 members who haven't. The fact that they've joined the forum perhaps shows they are thinking people interested in Virgin Media matters. There's no reason to suppose that people, here at least, are ignorant or apathetic. To say this would be to insult them I believe.
Why haven't more voted or posted? I don't know but wonder if they could have thought about it and don't place the same importance on the Phorm issue, or they don't believe it is the threat that the majority of anti-Phorm posters think it is.
Whatever the reason, I'm sure some won't post anything that runs contrary to the opinions of 'the club' because they suspect they'll be treated as if there must be something wrong with them. Why can't everyone tolerate a different point of view without thinking it's a wind-up, that Phorm are involved or it's someone who is unthinking and uninformed. Maybe they just have a different point of view ..and that's all?
RizzyKing
20-04-2008, 22:15
Mart what would you like 41,000 on here saying the same thing over and over. Most of them will not post as what they feel or think has already been expressed by people on here already. Whenever people say "maybe it won't be as bad as you think" i get concerned because that attitude has more of the hope about it then real reassurance. Phorm as is now and 121media are not friendly company's they are corporate predator's that will screw us over anyway they can to make money.
What are we the user's getting out of this apart from our clickstream being farmed and used to make money have we been told of a discount we will get no we havn't. It was taken for granted that we as consumer's would lie down and let this happen. For anyone in any doubt about where phorm is going read their patent application carefully and see how happy you are with what their system is ultimately capable of. My privacy is exactly that it is private not a new type of commodity that can be sold by VM just because i happen to be a customer of their's.
Oppose this now defeat this now or later on when you find out how far reaching this system is it will be too damn late to do anything about it.
Jelly and Dev are Phorm spinners, perhaps?
yes that is why i've said i'll be taking action so my traffic isn't profiled :rolleyes:
seems you either think phorm is the "devil" and is trying to steal everything about you or you're working for phorm.
GraphiX2004
20-04-2008, 23:13
man you people have got my blood boiling.
Dev it will effect your traffic why are you so arrogant?
it goes through THEIR servers THIER hubs before it hits you.
so regardless of how many proxy's or VPN's you try and run it through
it wont make a blind bit of difference it will just be re-directed to that machine.
Next
Jelly when you finally get slapped or bitten because your clearly not
understanding a damn word anyones saying your going to be wondering what hit ya.
instead of taking the time to take the blinkers off and read for what it is.
1. virgin cant do this or get away with it blah blah..
thats right they can't also get away with the following either right?
20mbit never reaching that never achiving that
Capping/STM'
Protocol Throttling/Dissabling/Slowing Down.
Look at the STM times for this traffic bs just when can you use your connection?
does the entire country now have to change working hours/social hours because
they seem to think we live on their world where social hours is 1am to 4am?
people have to work, people actually as strange as it may seem... SLEEP!
Now virgin is clearly getting away with charging for 20mbit them
going against Unlimited policy's then traffic shapping
Then here's the part i just am in awe over
We dont get anywhere near 20mbit now and their claiming its "upto 20mbit"
and then they go role out 50mb lmao..
if their claiming upto 20 and 50mb is higher than 20mbit then surely this
must mean if they can say upto 50mb we should always get at least 20mb?
and if thats the case of getting 20mb constantly on 50mb why cant 20mb customers
get 20mb as standard as it proves and shows right across the board their providing
faster than 20mbit to the 50mb customers.
So yea, how would they do all this and get away with it??
Wake up smell the coffee it's happening right now and who's doing anything about it?
if we cant do a single thing about being ass raped over this issues who the hell are
we going to complain about / to over when phrom turns into a nasty evil service?
my god i swear some people are only using 1 tenth of their braincells.
and to add insult to injury your PAYING your MONEY to them, so they can screw ya!
And getting away with it.
Mart what would you like 41,000 on here saying the same thing over and over. Most of them will not post as what they feel or think has already been expressed by people on here already
Maybe many do agree and don't post for the reason you've mentioned. However, there could be a significant number who feel differently and won't post for the reason I've mentioned. The consensus is passionate and set. When a thread is like that, some posters nearly always think it's OK to deride anyone who thinks differently. The thread might attract agreement and back-patting but not debate.
I'm not arguing my own case here. You'll notice I don't want Phorm either, even if I do feel somewhat less passionately than some about the issue. No, I try to put a case for encouraging debate rather than letting it be knocked firmly down by the sort of attitude I've noticed at times.
I think it might be a bit late for the monster Phorm thread to invite comments not in keeping with the consensus. The pattern is too set. It's been good to read a couple of members putting different views in this topic though. I may not agree but their input is valuable to me. Reading the same thing in the Phorm/Webwise thread just makes my eyes glaze over now.
Whenever people say "maybe it won't be as bad as you think" i get concerned because that attitude has more of the hope about it then real reassurance.
Yes it is admittedly a hope because I'm happy with the services VM provide and I don't want to change them. I'm going wait and see what the outcome of everything is (should it come about).
man you people have got my blood boiling.
Dev it will effect your traffic why are you so arrogant?
it goes through THEIR servers THIER hubs before it hits you.
so regardless of how many proxy's or VPN's you try and run it through
it wont make a blind bit of difference it will just be re-directed to that machine.
Next
um no, it only checks port 80, and ensure it is actually HTTP traffic. my traffic will neither be on port 80 or appear as HTTP traffic so a single proxy/vpn will be fine
Just want to pipe up and say that I'm one of those who is strongly opposed to Phorm and I'm really sad to see people arguing over the situation.
It's important to me that people understand what Phorm is - but beyond that, it is a person's own choice whether they stay with the ISPs involved. I'm not going to try to convince them to change their minds because, frankly, it's none of my business. I also understand that switching ISPs is not something most people can do at the drop of a hat.
As to the thousands of members who don't post anything here, on any given forum there is always a large percentage of people who prefer to lurk. I myself am generally a lurker, but it doesn't mean I don't feel strongly about various issues. I just don't feel very comfortable posting unless I feel what I have to say brings something useful to the thread.
So in closing, I'd just like to respectfully ask members to respect each others opinions and not label people into "Pro-Phorm" and "Anti-Phorm" camps. :)
Florence
21-04-2008, 02:36
I voted unsure, but its unlikely I would move just because of a few ads.
Well hope these forums get all members details onto HTTPS pages or phorm will log our details from your admin pages. I think I would have to quit cableforum also if phorm is allowed on mods connections.
I have moved as I couldn't be sure the members on ISPreview detailswould be safe on VM anylonger once phorm was active.
So in closing, I'd just like to respectfully ask members to respect each others opinions and not label people into "Pro-Phorm" and "Anti-Phorm" camps. :)
Yes. surely points can be made without remarks like:
You winding me up, right?
You really need to stop this windup, Then wake up and smell the coffee because you are not for real.
my god i swear some people are only using 1 tenth of their braincells.
I posted in the big thread stating points that weren't in keeping with the trend and eventually got shouted down. It was reading the calm well put information of some that influenced me in the end. Sadly, those who use those phrases above (or similar) often do have good points to make but they don't do themselves any favours by including such rude remarks. What an off-putter they are! People might be made to shut up OK but perhaps not because they are convinced of the rightness of the argument.
Ah well, maybe it's me. I'm not cut out for forums :)
Mick Fisher
21-04-2008, 08:31
Yes. surely points can be made without remarks like:
You winding me up, right?
You really need to stop this windup, Then wake up and smell the coffee because you are not for real.
my god i swear some people are only using 1 tenth of their braincells.
I posted in the big thread stating points that weren't in keeping with the trend and eventually got shouted down. It was reading the calm well put information of some that influenced me in the end. Sadly, those who use those phrases above (or similar) often do have good points to make but they don't do themselves any favours by including such rude remarks. What an off-putter they are! People might be made to shut up OK but perhaps not because they are convinced of the rightness of the argument.
Ah well, maybe it's me. I'm not cut out for forums :)
It's a shame that you have a different opinion than the majority seem to have.
We all have a choice in that we can go with the flow or buck the trend.
Personally I tend to rely on what logic and my conscience dictate. Others seem to buck the trend apparently for the sake of it.
But whatever, if you decide to stand up in a crowd of Chelsea supporters and cheer for Arsenal you are going to get shouted down. It's a fact of life. Moaning about it wont change things. :(
Yes, I'd move the lot, broadband, phone & TV.
After reading the technical analysis of Phorm and seeing the huge holes in their system (intercepting your communications & modifying it, making your webwise ID available to any site, 1% of pages won't load etc) there's no way I'd go anywhere near it. It won't make you more secure or protect you. All the other advertisers & tracking will exist on the net, Phorm just exposes you to another layer but allows anyone else to do so too.
I'll move to a company that has a little respect for its paying customers!
That, coupled with the loss of some TV channels and then price increases, STM - I'm getting pretty fed-up with them now.
Come back Blueyonder!
PeteTheMusicGuy
21-04-2008, 09:18
I'd move the lot There is no way of me putting up with phorm
It's a shame that you have a different opinion than the majority seem to have.
I don't. I have said I don't want Phorm (read back) but in answer to the original question, I've said that if it is implemented, I won't change ISPs. Not unless I have a bad experience anyway.
Others seem to buck the trend apparently for the sake of it.
'Apparently' might be the operative word there. It may not be the case.
But whatever, if you decide to stand up in a crowd of Chelsea supporters and cheer for Arsenal you are going to get shouted down. It's a fact of life. Moaning about it wont change things.
So the forum is compared to a football match?
I wasn't aware I was moaning. I didn't even make the point for me. It was more in defence of others who felt they wanted say something about the subject.
I don't. I have said I don't want Phorm (read back) but in answer to the original question, I've said that if it is implemented, I won't change ISPs. Not unless I have a bad experience anyway.
Exactly, I haven't said it's good either nor do I *want* it. All I'm saying is nothing is set in stone, and VM associated with Phorm in preliminary stages isn't enough for me to care about it yet. As it won't affect me I'm not bothered if it does or doesn't get implemented.
NTLVictim
21-04-2008, 13:19
It appears that not everyone is as er, complacent as dev..
Thin desktop (http://www.portal.itproportal.com/articles/2008/04/21/desktop-demand-concept-looks-quash-privacy-issues/1/)
RizzyKing
21-04-2008, 14:07
I understand some people don't have a problem with the system phorm are proposing but so far most of those adopting that position have not fully understood what this system is and what it will do in future. For those that do fully understand and still don't mind it i would welcome a debate with them. We can not allow ourselves to be divided on this issue as that plays completely into phorm's hands and i do completely object to phorm in any way or shape.
I understand some people don't have a problem with the system phorm are proposing but so far most of those adopting that position have not fully understood what this system is and what it will do in future.
From what they're telling me. I will get adverts that are more to my interests than what I would normally see. and I get FREE phishing protection :D
Florence
21-04-2008, 14:19
From what they're telling me. I will get adverts that are more to my interests than what I would normally see. and I get FREE phishing protection :D
From the person who is /was the best rootkit spy guy walking would you really trust him?
Letting him lose with phorm and what the patent says it can do is like putting a paedophile in charge of a primary school, would you allow your child to atttend if a paedophile was headmanster?
From the person who is /was the best rootkit spy guy walking would you really trust him?
Letting him lose with phorm and what the patent says it can do is like putting a paedophile in charge of a primary school, would you allow your child to atttend if a paedophile was headmanster?
That reminds me of a joke I was told the other day.
There was a discussion about what perks people get from the jobs they do. one guy said he gets free toilet paper to take home because he works in a toilet paper factory. a woman said she gets free teabags to take home because she works where they make them. another guy said he gets to ogle nice totty all day but he can't take them home. he's a teacher :D
Jelly when you finally get slapped or bitten because your clearly not
understanding a damn word anyones saying your going to be wondering what hit ya.
instead of taking the time to take the blinkers off and read for what it is.
1. virgin cant do this or get away with it blah blah..
thats right they can't also get away with the following either right?
20mbit never reaching that never achiving that
Capping/STM'
Protocol Throttling/Dissabling/Slowing Down.
None of those you listed are illegal. Distributing spyware, viruses and rootkits is. If Phorm try that, they won't get away with it.
NTLVictim
21-04-2008, 16:37
None of those you listed are illegal. Distributing spyware, viruses and rootkits is. If Phorm try that, they won't get away with it.
They have already..the BT trials Summer 2007. 36,000 people illegally opted in without their knowledge.
Phorm altering their wikipedia entry against wikipedia's T&C's to reflect them in a more favourable light..121 spyware...Phorm try and spread their message by disinformation, it has been proven, so you are either a phorm spinner or the most vulnerable and misinformed person I have ever met on the net.
We get what we deserve.
RizzyKing
21-04-2008, 16:56
Jelly i said before go do some research and find out what your agreeing too before you agree to it and yet you still come on and talk about phorm in a very benign way it really does puzzle me.
flowrebmit
21-04-2008, 16:59
Yes. surely points can be made without remarks like:
You winding me up, right?
You really need to stop this windup, Then wake up and smell the coffee because you are not for real.
my god i swear some people are only using 1 tenth of their braincells.
Mea Culpa, I am guilty of one of those comments, and I apologise for my over excited outburst. My last staff evaluation of me had a point that I can be very passionate about certain things - so I'll try to curb my natural spirit because despite my view that I see this as bad - I wouldn't want to be the cause of someone not voting and posting a comment.
To the original question, I can't at this stage vote because I don't know how VM are going to deploy the kit. It depends on whether there is going to be an independant VM system of Opt-in that when Opted-out will completely bypass the Phorm supplied technology.
I am also not sure if my TV L package has a discount because I also have broadband? If the 11.50 UKP is the standard price, then I would keep the TV package, but if it were to say double in price then I would reluctantly have to cancel it as I can't personally justify that extra cost.
Phorm try and spread their message by disinformation, it has been proven, so you are either a phorm spinner or the most vulnerable and misinformed person I have ever met on the net.
Not been proven, just been claimed. Stop trying to put me into the "Pro-Phorm" camp - Internet security is one of my favourite areas of IT, and Phorm, regardless of its past, has not been shown as a threat yet.
Jelly i said before go do some research and find out what your agreeing too before you agree to it and yet you still come on and talk about phorm in a very benign way it really does puzzle me.
It is benign until proven otherwise. Nothing about Phorm has been confirmed except that it will deliver targeted advertising. You are all talking about the absolute worst scenario where VM completely ignore Phorm after it is deployed and then Phorm take this as an opportunity to deploy some hidden code that steals all the personal data of VM's customers. Not likely.
RizzyKing
21-04-2008, 18:40
Jelly look at their patent application for the love of god and then ask yourself this why would they want that system if all they wanted to do was target ad's. Then come on here and with a straight face tell me i have nothing to worry about when it comes to my internet privacy and phorm because so far the only ones that have done that were phormpr. Hey look i usually like to be an optimist and look on the bright side but sometimes thats exactly what people want you to do and thats the case here take it if you want but i have done my research and if this is deployed in anyway by VM i am off and they can **** off as a supplier.
NTLVictim
21-04-2008, 20:03
I've just read all of jellys previous posts in context. I suggest other people on this thread who are interested may wish to do so, and draw their own conclusions.
I guess we'll take it as a companys risk to how many they will have leave before it becomes an issue i guess we'll see this year sometime ;).
Wild Oscar
22-04-2008, 13:14
I'd love to ditch the lot .. the trouble is installing replacements from scratch would be expensive! .. I'm not sure because I've not looked into it much yet!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need a BT phone line regardless to get a replacement Broadband service?
I'd love to ditch the lot .. the trouble is installing replacements from scratch would be expensive! .. I'm not sure because I've not looked into it much yet!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need a BT phone line regardless to get a replacement Broadband service?
You need BT to fit/activate a line that goes to one of their exchanges, yes. However, once that's sorted out, that is where your involvement with those goons can end. You can source phone/BB from another company.
Wild Oscar
22-04-2008, 13:45
This seems to apply for a new installation ..
Connection charges for BT Telephony and BT Basic
4. The following connection charges apply for BT Telephony, and BT Basic:
* If a BT line exists but changes are needed to wiring inside or outside the home or work at the exchange to reconnect to BT, or if a new single line is required the charge will be £124.99
* Take over of an existing line where no changes are needed to wiring inside or outside the home or work at the exchange to reconnect to BT the charge will be £0.
So if you haven't got a BT socket with a dial-tone ..
Jelly look at their patent application for the love of god and then ask yourself this why would they want that system if all they wanted to do was target ad's. Then come on here and with a straight face tell me i have nothing to worry about when it comes to my internet privacy and phorm because so far the only ones that have done that were phormpr. Hey look i usually like to be an optimist and look on the bright side but sometimes thats exactly what people want you to do and thats the case here take it if you want but i have done my research and if this is deployed in anyway by VM i am off and they can **** off as a supplier.
Once again, you're worrying about the worst case scenario. Come on here with a straight face and tell me that all that stuff is guaranteed to happen.
RizzyKing
22-04-2008, 17:12
check out the history of the people behind phorm Jelly my version of things is a lot more likely to happen then your version of how things will go.
manxminx
22-04-2008, 17:38
Hia all, just found this thread. I really can't believe the attitude of this Jelly person. But hey ho, each to their own :dunce:
I voted no. No I wouldn't move away from VM if they employed Phorm. Why should I? If I moved away it would be like me voting with my feet, but ignoring the actual problem. If you saw a crime being committed would you just walk away, or stay and phone the police and get any info on the criminals you can, to pass onto the police? Maybe not a perfect example, but no, I'm not going to walk away, I'm going to stay and fight.
Ali.
Mick Fisher
22-04-2008, 22:32
Hia all, just found this thread. I really can't believe the attitude of this Jelly person. But hey ho, each to their own :dunce:
I voted no. No I wouldn't move away from VM if they employed Phorm. Why should I? If I moved away it would be like me voting with my feet, but ignoring the actual problem. If you saw a crime being committed would you just walk away, or stay and phone the police and get any info on the criminals you can, to pass onto the police? Maybe not a perfect example, but no, I'm not going to walk away, I'm going to stay and fight.
Ali.
Good post.
I still say vote with your feet this thread will be 80% the phorm thread is 90% so even if they lost 60-70% of there customers they might learn a lesson (on switch off day), just keep inPhorming people about this and the isp's involved with webwise i trust everyone that stays gets some protection from it some way so they can put a big dent into any revenue they hoped to make.
I still say vote with your feet this thread will be 80% the phorm thread is 90% so even if they lost 60-70% of there customers they might learn a lesson (on switch off day), just keep inPhorming people about this and the isp's involved with webwise i trust everyone that stays gets some protection from it some way so they can put a big dent into any revenue they hoped to make.
that is my thinking, i don't *want* phorm to log my browsing but also i want to stay with VM, so the compromise is to stay and just not have any http traffic thus no ad revenue comes from me
tdadyslexia
23-04-2008, 09:39
Would dump VM like a hot brick.
Already making enquiries into alternatives for all my services.
Me To.
lightwind
23-04-2008, 10:06
Thing is, for me, I like everything about cable - especially the planned free upgrade from 4Mb to 10Mb. So I won't leave Virgin if they introduce Phorm.
However, what really hacks me off is the fact that I may have to accept being targetted with ads which a) I don't want to see anyway, and b) I've got no legal contract or control over Phorm and what they choose to do with my browsing data.
I'm much more interested in finding out if I can genuinely opt out, and more importantly, if there's anything like the Tor project which might be worth looking at to make tracking me harder to do.
I'm absolutely in favour of law enforcement agencies being able to track illegal activities, but for all law abiding surfers, this Phorm thing is an absolute invasion of privacy.
RizzyKing
23-04-2008, 11:01
If you stay after it is implemented how exactly can you fight ???. VM if they implement this and do not have a large loss of customers will see it as ok and will keep phorm and staying and fighting it is a non event. If you oppose this you have to back it up and while it will be a royal pain in the ass for everyone to source new providers if you don';t the message you send is one of it's ok we object but we won't really do anything about it.
The combination of Phorm and the ever increasing traffic management is making me think about leaving.
Shame as I've have no problems with my BB or phone, I get the speed I pay for.
Only problems are price and choice.
I'm on the 2 for £20 (soon to be £21!) for phone & BB, and the choice of other suppliers is very limited where I live.
Looks like I can be BE* which seems a good choice.
Actually working out I'm think I could get BE* Value & a BT line for £24.50, just depends how much BT would charge to re-connect.
check out the history of the people behind phorm Jelly my version of things is a lot more likely to happen then your version of how things will go.
Likely does not mean guaranteed. The only this that is guaranteed, as I have said before, is targeted advertising. Your "version" is no more likely, even if it is based on the past guises of Phorm. It's even less likely if they're collaborating with a huge company like VM.
Wild Oscar
23-04-2008, 16:40
Actually working out I'm think I could get BE* Value & a BT line for £24.50, just depends how much BT would charge to re-connect.
re .. BT reconnection ... http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34535307-post116.html
RizzyKing
23-04-2008, 16:43
Jelly what is the basis for your optimistic view of phorm because i find it hard to believe your ardent defence of phorm is because "they say so" so why are you so sure they are the benign entity you obviously feel they are. If it is something you have read give me a link maybe i will change my mind, if it is something you have heard who did you hear it off and what are their qualifications to make such reassuring statements ??. So far there is a wealth of evidence to show the system they plan to use in the beginning is illegal and yet you are saying that it will be fine because VM will watch out for us (like they did when they signed the deal with phorm) i would like to know where your stance comes from.
Jelly Remember this. 121 media who are now Phorm in another set of clothing said that there previous advertising system was easy to remove and was not a threat to privacy. How ever for those that had to remove that software it was a right royal pain in the **** and normally needed a format and reload. I will never trust that company again not matter what they tell me.
I have a simple rule setup for Virgin should they use Phorm.
Implement it and i leave and take all my services else where.
Jelly what is the basis for your optimistic view of phorm because i find it hard to believe your ardent defence of phorm is because "they say so" so why are you so sure they are the benign entity you obviously feel they are. If it is something you have read give me a link maybe i will change my mind, if it is something you have heard who did you hear it off and what are their qualifications to make such reassuring statements ??. So far there is a wealth of evidence to show the system they plan to use in the beginning is illegal and yet you are saying that it will be fine because VM will watch out for us (like they did when they signed the deal with phorm) i would like to know where your stance comes from.
If it's illegal, it won't be implemented. End.
If it's illegal, it won't be implemented. End.
What a simple rose tinted world you live in. END.
What a simple rose tinted world you live in. END.
I guessed an insult would be your only comeback since the principle is so flawless.
Phorm is being investigated by a few government watchdogs for privacy issues. If there are any, Phorm will not be implemented.
Do these people that are jumping ship not realise that all the other ISPs will be watching the situation very closely. And if its impletmented by BT & VM and its a success and starts to bring in money for these companies that the other ISPs will be wanting to get a peice of the action. Even the ones that have said now that they don't plan on intrudcing it. It wouldn't be the first time a company has said one thing then done something else further down the line.
I guessed an insult would be your only comeback since the principle is so flawless.
Phorm is being investigated by a few government watchdogs for privacy issues. If there are any, Phorm will not be implemented.
:LOL:
RizzyKing
23-04-2008, 18:35
I didn't insult you Jelly i simply asked for something other then a naive or innocent viewpoint to backup your position and you havn't provided one. I don't want to get into a slanging match but your view isn't with the best respect Jelly very realistic. As for your point about phorm being investigated yes it is true they are and that might well be our best chance to stop this but relying simply on that isn't the best thing to do many unpleasant things slip through cracks when the authorities feel it is not cared about. I would still like to hear something from you on what has formed your opinion so i can look at this from all angles myself.
I didn't insult you Jelly i simply asked for something other then a naive or innocent viewpoint to backup your position and you havn't provided one. I don't want to get into a slanging match but your view isn't with the best respect Jelly very realistic. As for your point about phorm being investigated yes it is true they are and that might well be our best chance to stop this but relying simply on that isn't the best thing to do many unpleasant things slip through cracks when the authorities feel it is not cared about. I would still like to hear something from you on what has formed your opinion so i can look at this from all angles myself.
My previous post was not aimed at you.
Also, my opinion has been formed based on what has been confirmed: Phorm is providing Webwise, a service that will show targeted adverts based on a users Internet activity. What has formed your opinion, Rizzyking? As far as I can see, the legions of anti-phorm users here have impressed their views on you.
I'm more of a fence-sitter; Phorm is not going to affect me. Though I do like to have a good argument.
RizzyKing
23-04-2008, 21:11
My opinion has been formed by reading the numerous articles that exist on the internet reading the patent application and even though i am not the most technical minded person understanding exactly what that system is intended for in the future. It has been formed by the phorm representatives that couldn't walk a straight line much less tell a truth and have been caught out numerous times on this site and many many others.
Jelly if something is the absolute truth then there is only one way to tell it so you explain to me why phorm and it's various representatives on the internet cannot get their story straight about the system phorm intends to use and how it will be used in the future. Even in the debates that kent has initiated he has got caught out on what has been said and also made contradictory statements it's all on the internet for you to read and see for yourself Jelly so please go and do that.
Nobody tells me how to think or what to think i make my own mind up based on what i see and hear for myself perhaps if you did that you wouldn't be on here arguing while saying very little and offering little to any real debate. I have tried to debate with you Jelly and respect your view but you give nothing so from now on i will just ignore your posts as that would be the best thing i think.
re .. BT reconnection ... http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34535307-post116.html
Thanks for the link, confirms what I found on the BT website after posting.
Just tested my BT socket, and no dial tone :(
Does make the decision harder when there's a £124.99 re-connection charge.:confused:
Would I move to a non-Phorm ISP? Already have. Did way before Phorm were around though.
lightwind
24-04-2008, 08:54
If you stay after it is implemented how exactly can you fight ???.
I feel just as strongly as you do about this, but if I cancel my VM subs, sure, that may well hurt VM. But walking away is not going to solve the problem either.
I intend to stay, watch carefully what actually happens, and if necessary, argue my case strongly against Phorm with the regulatory authorities, pressure groups, my local MP - and whoever else can help to bring about the necessary changes so that protection to individual rights of privacy is maintained.
I have a far stronger madate to do that from a position of remaining a VM customer and fighting them from the inside than one who is not.
Sorry I havent read all the past ten pages, but can someone confirm to me if Virgin are being phormed or not ?
Also, even without phorm, surely ISP's can track anything they want.
The police can then get hold of details such as terrorism and child porn, etc.
I think it's scary when you think your whole life, bank details, what you are into, where you book your holidays, etc is all being stored.
Sorry I havent read all the past ten pages, but can someone confirm to me if Virgin are being phormed or not ?
Also, even without phorm, surely ISP's can track anything they want.
The police can then get hold of details such as terrorism and child porn, etc.
I think it's scary when you think your whole life, bank details, what you are into, where you book your holidays, etc is all being stored.
Without Phorm, the ISP can track which IPs you connect to. That's it. Possibly the URLs as well. Nothing else. OK, if they use Proxies, they *may* be able to go through the Proxy's logs, and pull any data you've downloaded from the cache, but for most ISPs, this would not be practical (and could possibly be bypassed). This is helped by the fact that most proxies don't do any processing on the data beyond caching and retrieving it.
The various Law enforcement agencies need legal permission to access this.
With Phorm, at some point the system *will* take a complete copy of every page you visit, and attach a random userID to it. That ID can be relatively easily linked back to you. We have their assurances that they discard the data after updating your ad profile (which should take a few hours), but bearing in mind the company's history (look up 121media, they are the same people) and the near complete lack of any verifiable technical information released about the system, you can see why people are suspicious.
RizzyKing
24-04-2008, 10:25
Everyone must do as they feel is right for them and i understand that switching is not something that is possible for a lot of people. As for the argument of fighting from inside i may be being a bit thick but as i see it if VM implement this and despite all the opposition they don't see a large amount of customer's cancelling they will view it as a success and really won't pay any attention to any ongoing protests from some customer's.
Another downside could be that i believe we are at a crossroads and even if BT,VM and Carphone Warehouse do adopt it there will be a section of the industry that will move to profit from this and will attract people like me by staying clear of phorm. If not enough people moive that won't happen and despite any form of ongoing fight against phorm all isp's will adopt it eventually meaning we are all buggered in the long run.
VM's continued silence on this is starting to look like complete contempt for it's customer's and is now fast approaching very shoddy treatment of us that pay them good money. Also i don't understand the continued silence now that phorm is making use of it saying there is no backtracking from the agreement between phorm and the three company's mentioned. Silence despite neil burketts assurance of nothing written in stone is making me think this deal is a lot more solid then VM are admitting.
My opinion has been formed by reading the numerous articles that exist on the internet reading the patent application and even though i am not the most technical minded person understanding exactly what that system is intended for in the future. It has been formed by the phorm representatives that couldn't walk a straight line much less tell a truth and have been caught out numerous times on this site and many many others.
Jelly if something is the absolute truth then there is only one way to tell it so you explain to me why phorm and it's various representatives on the internet cannot get their story straight about the system phorm intends to use and how it will be used in the future. Even in the debates that kent has initiated he has got caught out on what has been said and also made contradictory statements it's all on the internet for you to read and see for yourself Jelly so please go and do that.
Nobody tells me how to think or what to think i make my own mind up based on what i see and hear for myself perhaps if you did that you wouldn't be on here arguing while saying very little and offering little to any real debate. I have tried to debate with you Jelly and respect your view but you give nothing so from now on i will just ignore your posts as that would be the best thing i think.
I have given the reason that I think Phorm is benign and you have ignored it and continued to bring up new "sources". Sources that cannot be accurate because there is not enough technical information available. Your signature and avatar suggest you are one of the more fanatic followers of the "BadPhorm" party, and the fact you admit to not being technically minded mean you have not formed your own opinion, but merely copied others'. Regardless of how much you argue against this point, I think you just slipped up there.
NTLVictim
24-04-2008, 17:09
"not enough technical information available"...
You are kidding, right?
Please Read This (http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf)
..and then tell me it's benign...
"not enough technical information available"...
You are kidding, right?
Please Read This (http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf)
..and then tell me it's benign...
:LOL:
But that will be bringing in to the argument accurate data about them, And that's just not cricket is it.;)
Phorm as going to be the biggest Spyware company in the world and VM, BT, Talk Talk are going to help them do it.
I guessed an insult would be your only comeback since the principle is so flawless.
Phorm is being investigated by a few government watchdogs for privacy issues. If there are any, Phorm will not be implemented.
You clearly don't know our government. If we don't keep the pressure up, and they do find something illegal about the way Phorm operates, they will (in some subtle way) slip in a change to the relevant laws to make it legal.
What's raised my suspicions about Phorm is simple. They are using an awful lot of hardware (both at the ISP and their own data centres) to do a job that, by their own admission, GoogleAds can do just using cookies and a little Javascript on a user's machine, and google's data centre. The system is also closed, so neither the user, nor, indeed the ISP can see what is on it. Phorm (despite carefully staged appearances to the contrary) are not being open about what their system is doing.
RizzyKing
24-04-2008, 18:21
Yeah damn you got me Jelly i am a badphorm fanatic an absolute zealot so much so i havn't updated my sig with anything past the first logo that came out. Being honest Jelly something is not right about you at all in all of this your naivety on this whole matter is either because you are on here to wind people up or you have another agenda. Either way matey you can say what you like about me i truly believe in free speech the bad as well as the good but looking back through our collective posts i wonder which of us comes off more as the drone.
"not enough technical information available"...
You are kidding, right?
Please Read This (http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf)
..and then tell me it's benign...
I think you forgot to read a few of my previous posts.
Also, your sarcasm bores me, RizzyKing. This is not a debate over who comes off as a zealot, it is about whether Phorm is illegal or not.
Paranoimia
24-04-2008, 21:54
If Virgin go ahead with this, I would love to move to another provider. However, I don't think it would be viable for me to do so.
In the area where I live, we're miles from the exchange, and I hate to think what kind of speed drop I'd have if I switched to an ADSL service, no matter which other provider I signed up with.
NTLVictim
24-04-2008, 22:19
it is about whether Phorm is illegal or not. So click on the link I supplied in my last post.
Paragraph 60 is an eye opener all on its own.
MovedGoalPosts
24-04-2008, 22:32
Can we please keep the debate civil and avoid the little digs at each other when responding. Thank you.
I voted to stop all services. I probably will anyway, even if they decide not to go ahead with Phorm. I have completely lost trust in VM.
So click on the link I supplied in my last post.
Paragraph 60 is an eye opener all on its own.
I've read that before, and it shows that if Phorm is illegal, it will not be implemented. As has been said before. By me.
I feel as if it's like being between the devil and the deep blue sea. If VM go ahead with Phorm/webwise, I will have to give money to BT in order to get an ADSL connection.
Some choice. It must be stopped by demonstrating it is illegal.
darkstar74
17-05-2009, 15:46
I will move all services away from not just Phorm, but any ISP service designed to spy on my online activities (I am not a software pirate, just value my family's privacy and security). I have been removing adware/spyware from computers for over 5 years and know first hand the damage it can do.
Virginmedia/NTL has usually used some pretty awfull software support packages in the past (Bullguard,Broadband Medic etc,) and I will attempt to curcumvent any software forced upon me.
Considering the state of current privacy issues surrounding this government I will not be voting for any political party until they know (or relearn) how to represent what I hold dear to me and the issues that really matter in this country.
It seem that the subverted activities this government are keen to support will not help them gain any support from the public who are already being tracked via cctv everywhere they go.
Along with many who have already left this god forsaken country, I will be doing the same pretty soon also leaving all corrupted technology behind me.
I would certainly leave VM if they do go ahead with this. Would probably write to complain first if they announced there were officially adopting this intrusive technology.
Nope would stay with isp but make sure no data sent would be any good... KEYSCRAMBLER AND TOR IN USE.......
Nope would stay with isp but make sure no data sent would be any good... KEYSCRAMBLER AND TOR IN USE.......
Although, as noted elsewhere, TOR is only trustworthy if the exit node used is trustworthy and not compromised. For instance, TOR would not protect your data from Phorm if the exit node it used was hosted on a phorm infected ISP.
If Keyscrambler is the product I just found, it may well protect you against keyloggers, but would only do so if it was able to intercept the keystrokes before they reach the logger and would be no protection against Phorm anyway. Phorm log what gets sent from your browser, not the keyboard.
Wild Oscar
20-05-2009, 15:21
Some might already have seen this reply to the epetition that was organized last year ... for those that haven't ...
Thank you for the e-petition on internet advertising technologies and customer privacy.
As your petition states, some Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have been looking at the use of Phorm’s Webwise and Open Internet Exchange (OIX) products. However, the only use of the technology so far has been the trials conducted by BT.
Advertisers and ISPs need to ensure that they comply with all relevant data protection and privacy laws. It is also important that consumers’ privacy is protected and that they are given sufficient information and opportunity to make a clear and informed decision whether to participate in services such as Phorm.
The Government is committed to ensuring that people’s privacy is fully protected. Legislation is in place for this purpose and is enforced by the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). ICO looked at this technology, to ensure that any use of Phorm or similar technology is compatible with the relevant privacy legislation. ICO has published its view on Phorm on its website:
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pressreleases/2008/new_phorm_statement_040408.pdf
ICO is an independent body, and it would not be appropriate for the Government to second guess its decisions. However, ICO has been clear that it will be monitoring closely all progress on this issue, and in particular any future use of Phorm’s technology. They will ensure that any such future use is done in a lawful, appropriate and transparent manner, and that consumers’ rights are fully protected.
Typical government waffle ...
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19318
downupload
20-05-2009, 16:07
Sorry if this is obvious but has VM implemented phorm/are they likely to?
Thanks
I feel as if it's like being between the devil and the deep blue sea. If VM go ahead with Phorm/webwise, I will have to give money to BT in order to get an ADSL connection.
Some choice. It must be stopped by demonstrating it is illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection
I suggest you read the paragraph headed "Lawful intercept"
The government would dearly love to have their hands on DPI data. For that reason they will use every possible legal trick to avoid demonstrating that phorm-type intereception is illegal.
It's the same mindset that wants cameras on every street corner and juvenile informers to tell when you put your bins out a day early.
Ignitionnet
20-05-2009, 16:26
Government can already get at everyone's data anyways as it traverses their ISP anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000
---------- Post added at 16:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------
Nope would stay with isp but make sure no data sent would be any good... KEYSCRAMBLER AND TOR IN USE.......
Keyscrambler is no use against this at all, and I hope you're enjoying the fantastic performance Tor tends to give.
I do nothing that interesting and have little regard for something like Phorm, especially in the context of the amount of tracking cookies that get deposited on the PC regularly. The only interesting stuff should be SSL'd up, if they start trying to diddle with my SSL sessions then I'll ensure they can't :)
Zhadnost
20-05-2009, 16:38
I'd stay with VM because there isn't a viable alternative, If I was that worried about it I can always proxy through my hosted machine.
Sorry if this is obvious but has VM implemented phorm/are they likely to?
Thanks
The answers are, in order: No, and unknown.
I suspect they are waiting to see how much of a fuss people kick up when BT implement a large scale deployment.
Zhadnost
20-05-2009, 16:53
Hey, if there's a reasonable flood away from BT at the time, it may make more financial sense avoiding it like the plague.
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