View Full Version : Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
AlexanderHanff
09-04-2008, 20:51
80/20 Thinking have organised a public meeting in London on 15th April (Tuesday). This meeting is open to the public and Phoem's CEO will be present as will Richard Clayton.
This thread is for anyone who will be attending the meeting in order to organise opportunities for people to meet up and hopefully organise some form of direct action around the event.
I would like to point you all to this post:
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34524418-post2755.html
Where I have outlined some provisional ideas.
If you are planning to attend the meeting, please get involved with this thread. It will also enable us to see how many people are going to attend from these forums.
Alexander Hanff
I for one shall be attending
Alex - please could you post up a fresh link to your paper, I cannto find it in the other very long thread about Phorm.
Just be careful. Unless you think Phorm are an open and above board company, suspect they are up to something.
On the face of it, they have nothing to gain from this except bad publicity. They are bound to have something up their sleeves.
Be prepared for things to go not how you imagine.
Just my thoughts and good luck. :handshake:
I don't think there will be need for fliers as I expect everyone who attends will be against Phorm, except maybe 2 people.
I will hopefully get a tshirt done tomorrow, based on one of the badphorm designs by none et al.
Not working in London, I just hope I can get out of work early to make it for the 6.30 start
---------- Post added at 22:00 ---------- Previous post was at 21:56 ----------
On a mischievous note, if we could start a chant of DO NOT WANT when Kent gets up to speak, that would be epic :-)
AlexanderHanff
09-04-2008, 23:04
I for one shall be attending
Alex - please could you post up a fresh link to your paper, I cannto find it in the other very long thread about Phorm.
http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf
It isn't finished yet but it will be by Friday.
We would like to get everyone to buy one of these for the event if possible:
http://www.forbiddenplanet.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=38257&zenid=7ad504694d82a691fcdaa9027425c7d7
It is a V for Vendetta mask, but their shipping is "Within 28 days". Ideally we could do with someone who lives near one of the stores who is going to the meeting, to buy a couple so others can buy them off them at the event.
Alexander Hanff
---------- Post added at 23:04 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------
I can confirm I will be attending the meeting. One of the forum members has kindly offered to drive me there and back.
Alexander Hanff
Won't this just give Phorm and the ISPs the excuse that they are fighting 'anonymous' hackers. They can say that they are protecting the average user from hackers etc. I think the use of the masks will go against the anti Phorm argument.
Its a nice idea, I support the Scientology debate, but this could work against us.
AlexanderHanff
09-04-2008, 23:13
No not at all. I will be asking questions during the panel hopefully so I certainly won't be wearing a mask at that point, it would be rude. But it would be nice to arrive at the event in the mask and sit through the initial commentaries in our masks. We would of course remove our masks when Dr Richard Clayton takes the podium.
Alexander Hanff
I like the idea but I can just see the headlines the next day "Anonymous hijacks privacy debate", "Internet hackers fight for their privacy". I think the talk will be against Phorm anyway, we don't need masks.
manxminx
09-04-2008, 23:24
This meeting, and what will be discussed at the meeting, will be in the public interest. I have asked 80/20 if the meeting can be web-cast and/or recorded for distribution later as a podcast. I'll report back with the reply once I get it.
Ali.
I like the idea but I can just see the headlines the next day "Anonymous hijacks privacy debate", "Internet hackers fight for their privacy". I think the talk will be against Phorm anyway, we don't need masks.
I agree. People need to go as suited professionals. You argue with logic, the law and expertise. You show you are not just a marginalised geek.
Phorm would love for 'the other side' to be grouped with anti-globalists dressed up as beagles.
If people do not go along as concerned professionals, you can wave the whole campaign goodbye.
:mad:
---------- Post added at 00:33 ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 23:58 ----------
I'm not so certain that it's a good idea for this thread to be split from the main one. There are plenty of people who can't get to the meeting, but would like to be involved in the discussions about it.
We dont have seperate threads for RIPA or ICO etc.
It might be a good idea to have a thread about anouncements regarding the meeting. i.e. where to meet up etc., perhaps a temporary 'sticky' if the mods would agree?
But I do think the discussion for all this should be kept in one place.
I agree with Mark. Using parapernalia and costumes will not enhance the cause. I'm also confused why a public meeting with Phorm is being entertained. It will be stage-managed and the outcome manipulated. Phorm are irrelevant. Get ISP's to explain their position; they are remaining quiet. We are already being suckered.
The Phorm proposals are a national disgrace.
8020thinking:
"We are holding this meeting in as transparent a manner as possible, and as
such would be happy for you to bring along your camcorder should you so
wish"
manxminx
10-04-2008, 01:22
I've also had a reply from 80/20 Thinking re my request for a webcast or podcast of the meeting. The reply I received was privileged and confidential, but what I can say is that so far I am very happy with the response I received. Being ever hopeful, I'll say watch out for some public news about this tomorrow (err, later on today as it's gone 1am and time for bed!)
Ali.
80/20Thinking
10-04-2008, 02:08
Dear all,
Following our email responses to some of you, I just wanted to confirm that we are looking to webcast the proceedings of the Phorm public meeting on Tuesday in London. We're hoping the technology at the theatre will allow this, but please do bring along vid cameras if you wish, just to be on the safe side.
Best wishes
Simon Davies
MD, 80/20 Tinking Ltd
www.8020thinking.com
Just be careful. Unless you think Phorm are an open and above board company, suspect they are up to something.
On the face of it, they have nothing to gain from this except bad publicity. They are bound to have something up their sleeves.
Be prepared for things to go not how you imagine.
Just my thoughts and good luck. :handshake:
http://www.soas.ac.uk/gallery/
Near the bottom it says it's a 300 seat lecture theatre.
Hi,
A couple of thoughts:
I will not be dressing up with a Vendetta mask. I think it is important that we do not give Phorm or their associated PR spunkmonkeys an opportunity to marginalise us. Therefore I will be suited and booted at the meeting.
If you do wish to turn up in a Vendetta mask, the forbidden planet store is about 10 minutes walk from the lecture theatre so you could easily pick one on your way.
Alexander. I am very glad that you will be attending the meeting. I am certain that you will be a much more forceful advocate of the anti-phorm position than I.
On a procedural point I think it is important that we attempt to identify if there are any Phorm ringers in the audience. I am going to give some thought on how this might be achieved
AlexanderHanff
10-04-2008, 12:03
OK I will be wearing a suit and no mask :p (other than the one I am required to wear year round so as not to scare young children).
We will be driving to Harrow and catching the tube from there (this should avoid London congestion charge and of course mean we can find parking. It should also save a lot of time driving into central London).
Alexander Hanff
Alexander, I'm glad you are able to attend. I'm sure you'll be able to give them a good run for their money.
I think a measured, reasoned, professional approach is best as anything else will detract from the issues that need discussing (must be getting old!)
Hopefully, it will be pretty easy to tie these clowns up in knots. Just sorry that I can't get down to "that London" and join in the fun. I will, however, be there in spirit and by any virtual means that can be set up.
Bon chance mon braves.
Ravenheart
10-04-2008, 13:21
I'd love to get to this event but I'm unable to do so as I'm waiting a bionic knee at the moment. I'll certainly be there in spirit and you all have my full support.
Make all of the people who have campaigned proud with valid arguments, and intellectual debate and give Phorm the resounding message that despite their claims we don't want tailored ads or have our activities online profiled for their profit.
Sorry to revive this thread but I'm still confused about what can be gained from a public debate with Phorm. This is a PR exercise for them; convincing them of the error of their ways is impossible and the meeting is therefore already valueless.
The meeting as such is not to address the concerns of users, it is arranged to assuage the nerves of potential investors in the Phorm technology.
Phorm have monitored this forum constantly. They know what to expect; they will have teams of people preparing to counter all possible scenarios. This is a big money venture and they have made a huge comittment. They're not about to allow anyone to take them off course.
Countering Phorm in a public debate is tantamount to attacking the tail not the head. The ISP's are very quiet. Whilst Phorm is taking the knocks, that will suit them.
But if there are press there, any awkward questions will get reported - hopefully in the national press.
Fair comment. However, 'awkward' questions will be refuted with well-rehearsed responses; the result is likely to be impasse at best. The danger here is not for the technically savvy who will see through the rebuttals, it is of the casual observer being taken in by a slick PR performance.
80/20Thinking
13-04-2008, 01:44
Sorry to revive this thread but I'm still confused about what can be gained from a public debate with Phorm. This is a PR exercise for them; convincing them of the error of their ways is impossible and the meeting is therefore already valueless.
The meeting as such is not to address the concerns of users, it is arranged to assuage the nerves of potential investors in the Phorm technology.
Really? Well that's news to me. As my organisation is the one managing this event I'd hope I would have some idea why it has been convened. And for the record, we're the one's who convened it as part of the PIA process, which was undertaken by Phorm on a voluntary basis.
Really? Well that's news to me. As my organisation is the one managing this event I'd hope I would have some idea why it has been convened. And for the record, we're the one's who convened it as part of the PIA process, which was undertaken by Phorm on a voluntary basis.
Thank you for the reply. It is interesting that you have responded so quickly to a post made at 1:30am in the small hours.
I am aware that you are managing the event. I assume that you are engaged, and therefore paid, by Phorm to produce the PIA?
Hi simon.
and as i said on thursday in the other thread #2809 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34524700-post2809.html) #2845 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34525116-post2845.html)
given the vast scope of your PIA with an estimated 70% plus of the whole UK internet individuals effected, this local townhall type meeting you propose is nowere near enough to cover anywere near the scope.
a live publicly managed UK housed IRC session (not on Phorm owned/run servers)as pointed out earlyer in the other thread, might be good, and go some way to better fulfil your PIA individuals stakeholder analysis
infact given it involves the interweb ;) this is the only viable and open way.
an adaptable live web poll, in case some new information comes to light and needs adressing live.
so having the ability to ask a live question, click a vote web page, and mark it's result down for public feedback and clarity for all to see, simple and effective.
(remember the Zimbabwean voting... and still waiting for the result; we dont want that kind of happening going on, do we, on this most important issue in the UK online community to date)
as you said yourself here http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/04/11/your_chance_to_quiz_kent_ertugrul_of_phorm_facetof ace.html
just hours ago....
Simon Davies
MD, 80/20 Thinking Ltd said:
"After all, this is clearly the most important privacy issue of recent decades."
i agree..., and that being the case, your proposal that you might take private Emails for questions is in no way appropriate for this public PIA
the 70% of the UK individual stakeholders effected are waiting for their chance to contribute to this live Open ISP/Phorm PIA , are you going to deny them this chance given your quote, and easy access to a currently Non Intercepted FAST University net Connection and kit right there in the room.
you have one chance for open and clear realtime transparency ,using the PIA located london universitys campus wireless and realtime streaming video capture equipment, that location gives you the perfect place to do all the basic things i outlined above, if you were to talk to the campus net techs, SO DO IT, and even more if you can.
you must open this up realtime for all partys to contribute and be heard publicly.
BTW, is this a fixed time scale, or do you intend leaving it open ended incase more time is required and wanted to address any live issues ?
80/20Thinking
13-04-2008, 05:27
Hi simon.
and as i said on thursday in the other thread #2809 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34524700-post2809.html) #2845 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34525116-post2845.html)
given the vast scope of your PIA with an estimated 70% plus of the whole UK internet individuals effected, this local townhall type meeting you propose is nowere near enough to cover anywere near the scope.
Thanks Popper. I'll do my best, but I really have to be clear that the PIA isn't a matter of voting, it's a matter of process. Seeking the balance of public opinion is a road to bedlam, and is subordinate to the more arduous task of sorting out the facts. As a privacy activist I never based my actions on whether the majority of the population went along with me (and most don't on such issues as CCTV or expansion of police powers) but I continue regardless to work through process and principle. That approach will be reflected at this meeting.
Simon Davies,MD, 80/20 Thinking Ltd said:
"Seeking the balance of public opinion is a road to bedlam, and is subordinate to the more arduous task of sorting out the facts."
As a privacy activist I never based my actions on whether the majority of the population went along with me (and most don't on such issues as CCTV or expansion of police powers) but I continue regardless to work through process and principle.
That approach will be reflected at this meeting.
thats an interesting point of view Simon, but it seems against the founding principles of the www.ico.gov.uk (http://www.ico.gov.uk) and it's PIA documents.
does the ICO or the EU Commisioners office for that matter, consider their official documents subordinate to anything else relating to the UK/EU privacy domain/facts?
does or can a private companys collected facts correlate with the Govt and the peoples effected facts!...
for the late comers to the CF ISP/Phorm threads, the rules that need to be followed for that Privacy Impact Assessment (PIA) are here.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l/1-intro.html (http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pia_handbook_html/html/1-intro.html)
the main reason this meeting is taking place, is for you and your individual stakeholders ICO PIA rules here it seems.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...preparing.html (http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pia_handbook_html/html/3-preparing.html)
Simon
I posted a simple question above: are you being paid by Phorm to produce this PIA? Your answer is relevant to understanding the status of the hosts of Tuesday's meeting.
From the information available, your Company has existed for a little over 3 months (since January this year) and it seems singularly suited to produce a Privacy Impact Assessment for Phorm. In fact, your terms of reference appear to imply that 80/20 Thinking are uniquely skilled for the task.
A further question therefore: what is the validity of the specific Assessment that you are to produce? I am unclear on the conclusions that can be drawn from a document you will produce for a client. Thank you.
80/20Thinking
13-04-2008, 12:57
A further question therefore: what is the validity of the specific Assessment that you are to produce? I am unclear on the conclusions that can be drawn from a document you will produce for a client. Thank you.
OK, let me repeat the facts. As Phorm and 80/20 Thinking have both publicly stated, this is a commercial contract. 80/20 is a commercial organisation, even if it is a commercial organisation with a difference (half its profits go to civil liberties campaigners in developing countries).
This document is knows as a "late stage Privacy Impact Assessment". It is "late stage" because the Information Commissioner only launched the PIA framework four months ago, long after Phorm had set its wheels in motion.
The document is process driven. That is, it sets out in fairly clinical terms whether due diligence in privacy has been undertaken, whether the company has followed the correct procedures, whether it meets a number of tests. It is not a legal opinion, nor is it an ethics essay. However what it does offer is a means of knowing what we do and do not know about the system and outlines the questions that this raises.
Some of you have suggested that we should poll people up and down the country. That would be an interesting exercise, but would tell us less than you might imagine. And what if, for example, the results of the poll indicated a majority support for the Phorm scheme? Where would that leave us? You might want to think twice before entering that quagmire. After five years fighting the discredited ID card we're still struggling to poll more than fifty percent in our favour. If we ran a poll through ICM tomorrow, I dare say the results would run that way. And it would, quite rightly not change your view of the ethics of all this. I wouldn't expect it to.
Same applies with legal opinion. What if we went down that road? Let's say we did definitively conclude that the system was in fact lawful if certain notification and consent conditions could be met. Would that change your view on the ethical position? You would argue, as I have done in other arenas many times, that the law must change.
No, my job is simply to assess the facts of the case. You will not like some of our conclusions but you will embrace others. Ours is in many ways the disinfectant of sunshine. That process might seem pointless to some of you, but its value will become evident in time.
---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------
thats an interesting point of view Simon, but it seems against the founding principles of the www.ico.gov.uk (http://www.ico.gov.uk) and it's PIA documents.
does the ICO or the EU Commisioners office for that matter, consider their official documents subordinate to anything else relating to the UK/EU privacy domain/facts?
I think I may not have been precise enough with my wording. You cannot poll the opinions of the population until you can communicate precisely what is known. It would be bizarre to ask for opinions in any structured way until the full range of facts can be presented. The key point of the public meeting is to test assertions, ask questions and engage with those who know those facts.
You cannot poll the opinions of the population until you can communicate precisely what is known.
Maybe you should mention that to BT and Phorm as they did poll their customers who came back with a resounding, "yes please, that sounds like a wonderful idea".
lucevans
13-04-2008, 13:24
I have a question that I would like someone to ask the Phorm people at the meeting on Tuesday, as I can't attend.
I don't think that compiling our list of questions on this forum is a good idea; it gives Phorm an unfair advantage, as they can pre-prepare responses to all of our concerns , while we have no such access to their preparation process in return. (Just look at how often one of their droids is seen lurking here!)
So if I PM them, would anyone who is attending consider asking my question please?
Apologies for the cloak-and-dagger stuff, but I don't think we should give Phorm an unfair advantage...
JohnHorb
13-04-2008, 13:27
Maybe you should mention that to BT and Phorm as they did poll their customers who came back with a resounding, "yes please, that sounds like a wonderful idea".
Link please? I think people have been trying to extract the details of these 'polls' for some time, and I've yet to see any response from Phorm or the ISPs.
I don't have any details on the poll, just that BT/Phorm keep saying that their customers told them they want this. I'm surprised that no-one who was part of that poll has actually come forward detailing the questions they were asked.
OK, let me repeat the facts. As Phorm and 80/20 Thinking have both publicly stated, this is a commercial contract. 80/20 is a commercial organisation, even if it is a commercial organisation with a difference (half its profits go to civil liberties campaigners in developing countries). .....snip....
No, my job is simply to assess the facts of the case.
---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------
Thank you for the informative reply in which you have made the clear statement that 80/20 Thinking is indeed being paid by Phorm.
I fully understand that as a commercial organisation, your Company exists to make money and I am in no way questioning the integrity of the process but I think its funding is relevant to the way the process is perceived.
The PIA would appear on the face of it to be 'compliance with due process'. Phorm will contend voluntary self-assessment and transparency and 80/20 Thinking is managing that process whilst on the payroll.
With respect, Tuesday's meeting looks more and more like a carefully planned PR exercise under the guise of openness. A 2 hour meeting in London is not a representative forum of the views of millions of people and for that reason, the meeting itself is of no consequence.
The illegal interception of thousands of users data will however have consequences and I presume the PIA will address the facts known from BT's admission?
AlexanderHanff
13-04-2008, 17:26
I think I may not have been precise enough with my wording. You cannot poll the opinions of the population until you can communicate precisely what is known. It would be bizarre to ask for opinions in any structured way until the full range of facts can be presented. The key point of the public meeting is to test assertions, ask questions and engage with those who know those facts.
If this is the case, then how can a 2000 participant poll by BT be construed as an accurate representation? Furthermore, what were the questions asked by BT in the poll? It would seem obvious that the questions would be tainted to give answers in favour of the system; a common method employed by polls run by parties with a commercial interest.
Had the poll laid out the facts with regards to law and privacy concerns I am sure the results would have been considerably different.
Alexander Hanff
I think the nature of the poles (wording, results, information presented to promote an informed answer) should be released by all concerned.
If this information is not released, it is safe to say it is highly biased and contained leading questions. As a result, any mention of them should be soundly rejected on these grounds as not being truly representative. Could this be raised at the meeting?
a few more comments on this are appearing here in reference to our CF thread...
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/04/11/your_chance_to_quiz_kent_ertugrul_of_phorm_facetof ace.html
"
Gnasherx
Comment No. 1047102 (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/04/11/your_chance_to_quiz_kent_ertugrul_of_phorm_facetof ace.html#comment-1047102)
April 13 21:16 (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/04/11/your_chance_to_quiz_kent_ertugrul_of_phorm_facetof ace.html#comment-1047102)
Comment No. 1046731:
"My job is simply to assess the facts of the case. You will not like some of our conclusions but you will embrace others."
You haven't completed the process yet. Do you know what the conclusions will be?"
;) i guess that this ongoing CF interaction is the better option for clarity...
i just noticed that the ElReg thread have only just updated my pointer to this thread....
if your late to the party, theres been a lot of text since then, so you might want to start here
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33628733-virgin-media-phorm-webwise-adverts-updated-page-204.html to catch up on the other thread....
From the 80/20 (http://www.8020thinking.com/) website about tomorrow's meeting:
Please note: we have arranged for this meeting to be professionally filmed. The entire event will be placed on the Web shortly. If you are concerned about being filmed, please let a member of the organising team
know in advance. It is also likely that a national TV news programme will also be present.
As Rolf Harris might say "Can you see what it is yet?". There's no such thing as bad publicity.
well if thats true, it goes for both partys involved....
a professionally filmed meeting is all well and good, but if its not used and streamed in realtime as was requested and required for us the individual stakeholders not able to attend this meeting, then can you confirm we will also have a realtime stream of some quality at the event today?
and have the URLs and related information posted here before the event begins?
the professionally filmed footage might be good for placing on the HD Vuse network OC if its not edited out the best bits......later.
AlexanderHanff
15-04-2008, 05:15
I would just like to update this thread and announce I have been invited to attend the meeting as a guest speaker as a representative of the general public.
Alexander Hanff
theres a good chance you might be interviewed by C4 news then Alexander....
make a potential list of points you might want to put across and assume a 30 second spot to be sure if thats the case.
if theres opportunity in that timeline, then it might be punchy to say something along the lines of the countrys MPs, Queens Council and even TV presenters private net communications could potentially be intercepted if they are using the 3 UKs ISPs for their office and or home net connection.
that 'the UK professions Effected by Net Interception' point might get the headlines far more than joe blogs and it also happens to be true with 70% plus of the UK ISP users effected by ISP/Phorm Deep Packet Interception.
remember VM carry a LOT of the council/courts/Professional cable BB network, and BT the rest....
---------- Post added at 07:05 ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 ----------
its a pitty we dont have a Cable forum/BadPhorm banner backdrop for any TV interviews too, anyone made one for a quick A3 printer/plotter output
I would just like to update this thread and announce I have been invited to attend the meeting as a guest speaker as a representative of the general public.
Alexander Hanff
Well done!.
stuart #3391 (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34528911-post3391.html) ? regarding getting the PIA user side attendee No's up.
a bbc top posted updating blog as it happens almost live, so start at the bottom and work up.
weres the video stream as requested BTW...., didnt they plug in the video streaming box? perhaps a simple laptop and VLC over wireless will do if anyone at the PIA is reading this now can arrange that in 10 mins.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/04/the_phorm_privacy_debate_londo.html
I would just like to update this thread and announce I have been invited to attend the meeting as a guest speaker as a representative of the general public.
Alexander Hanff
Well done Alexander, your contribution went well and there's deserved praise over in the main thread. My sincere thanks goes to you too. I think you know though that this is but a battle in the war. I look forward to your summary of this evening's proceedings when you have rested from mental exhaustion!
Oh, and Simon, your heart is not in the camp in which you find yourself; perhaps the inspiration that you have been to Alexander might be rekindled by the performance of your protegé :). Whatever, you gave Alexander the opportunity to present the view of so many and I thank you for that.
All in all, civility was the winner. The reward will be the privacy that this Country selfishly and justly guards.
lucevans
15-04-2008, 21:30
Well done Alexander, your contribution went well and there's deserved praise over in the main thread. My sincere thanks goes to you too. I think you know though that this is but a battle in the war. I look forward to your summary of this evening's proceedings when you have rested from mental exhaustion!
Oh, and Simon, your heart is not in the camp in which you find yourself; perhaps the inspiration that you have been to Alexander might be rekindled by the performance of your protegé :). Whatever, you gave Alexander the opportunity to present the view of so many and I thank you for that.
All in all, civility was the winner. The reward will be the privacy that this Country selfishly and justly guards.
:clap:
AlexanderHanff
16-04-2008, 06:32
Please see my summary of the event here:
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34529831-post3563.html
Alexander Hanff
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