Well, they did ask......

[Mr Angry]

Those terribly nice people at ebay sent me an email asking me to take part in a survey and to be as honest as possible.

Here are two of my answers which might cause them some food for thought.

Enjoy.

[Paul]

I doubt ebay will give them a second glance.

[Wicked_and_Crazy]

I doubt they will be concerned. The selling of illegal goods is only controlled by people reporting it. If its not reported nothing is done about it. Ebay arent proactive at policing, Why should they be, a sale means money.

VM can stop cloned modems quicker that they do if they really wanted to

[Mr Angry]

I agree with you both 100%.

The fact is that ebay were brought to task several months ago by a collective of high street retail chains concerned about the sale of stolen goods.

They had to be seen to take steps about that so one would have to consider what, if any, weight has been brought to bear on them by VM.

None I suspect.

However, their inaction does not preclude me from pointing out (both) their shortcomings on this matter.

In relation to the High Street retailers a spokesman for eBay said:

"Stolen items are strictly prohibited from sale on eBay and we're committed to keeping the site free from such items. We certainly do not accept that there are a significant number of stolen items on the site".

"The reality is that we have strong relationships with a wide variety of retailers and law enforcement, and in the small number of cases where potentially stolen items are reported to us, we actively assist the police with their investigations and provide ongoing assistance in securing convictions where appropriate."


Funny that, given the recent number of posts on here detailing cloned / flashed / stolen modems for sale.

[kryogenik]

Nice one Angry chap.

FWIW, I work for a major record label and we actively search and find our products (pre-release promos specifically) on eBay, and the results are 100% spot on. eBay provide us with usernames, addresses etc ( so we may cross reference against our trusted promo people list). We seldom have to go further than this, eBay pull the auctions. I'd suggest that it's VM that are either too busy or, dare I suggest, too complacent to take care of the situation. eBay (IMO) are not the best in terms of reciprocation by any means, but they always come good for us.
I'm sure if VM were upset enough, this could be culled.

[punky]

Good on ya Mr A for actually doing something about it :tu: :clap:

[jo.v]

The people you should be angry with here are the cheeky sods that think they have the right to con you and the people stupid enough to buy modems off somebody else apart form the ISP. (Ebay should not allow this either.)
From my experience, It is a big deal within VM when we come across a possible clone.
Anyhow, cloned mac addresses would only affect the connection of that cloned modem. The bandwidth wouldnt be stolen, as only 1 modem with that mac is allowed to have an ip address at a time. (this makes sense in my head.. hard to write it down.)

There are ways that virginmedia Fault management can check for possible clone macs but it can be a long process and it is quite difficult. However, normally, we would just replce the genuine customers modem.

Myself, Id like to go meet anyone who clones modems, creates virus's and other con artists and slap them!!!

[Bonglet]

[QUOTE=jo.v]
Anyhow, cloned mac addresses would only affect the connection of that cloned modem. The bandwidth wouldnt be stolen, as only 1 modem with that mac is allowed to have an ip address at a time. (this makes sense in my head.. hard to write it down.)[QUOTE]

Of the details i have found out that 1 modem is allowed on that ubr with the ip and it dosent work linked nationaly so someone from north could be using someone from the souths mac and ip and be unnafected as they are on different ubr's.
way to combat that would be to link them all with a national ubr link but then you would have tons of people phoning up complaining that they couldnt access any inet as they would be fighting with the non legitimate user for control of the ip :mad:, there are other soloutions as in hard coded modems but no mention of anything from vm about the issue like a lot of others yet to fix and the national bw problem should be no1 on the list yet we still suffer can we expect decent fixes before xmas anyone in the vm loop know?:dunce:.

[Sirius]

The people you should be angry with here are the cheeky sods that think they have the right to con you and the people stupid enough to buy modems off somebody else apart form the ISP. (Ebay should not allow this either.)
From my experience, It is a big deal within VM when we come across a possible clone.
Anyhow, cloned mac addresses would only affect the connection of that cloned modem. The bandwidth wouldnt be stolen, as only 1 modem with that mac is allowed to have an ip address at a time. (this makes sense in my head.. hard to write it down.)

There are ways that virginmedia Fault management can check for possible clone macs but it can be a long process and it is quite difficult. However, normally, we would just replce the genuine customers modem.

Myself, Id like to go meet anyone who clones modems, creates virus's and other con artists and slap them!!!

However if that IP is cross referenced to the mac as well and a **** bag has cloned his modem with your mac, And it is then picked up by the RIAA or similar who do you think they will come after. ?

The answer need's only the space for 3 letter's at the most _ _ _ :)

And this is the crux of the matter. ANYONE who has had their mac cloned will be in danger of getting a letter for infringment if the person who cloned your modem is using it to file share and gets that mac and ip detected.

[TheNorm]

...if the person who cloned your modem is using it to file share ...

Which is, of course, highly likely.

[ultimate]

Do they or can they clone STB? My internet is going through STB

[Jules]

Good one you for making a point of it on the survey :tu:

[Stig]

Funny that, given the recent number of posts on here detailing cloned / flashed / stolen modems for sale.

You can hardly call them stolen modems if Virgin/NTL tell you they don't want them back and to do what ever you want with it (as they did when my sister and mother canceled). I'm not condoning what is done with the modems.... just pointing out that if they don't want them back and allow you to keep them they are not stolen.

Virgin should collect or make sure all unused modems are returned (even if they are of no use to Virgin).

[Smok3y666]

Let me put this question to you: If the people using cloned modems were to all of a sudden become honest, paying subscribers do you really think the VM network would be any better? Do you really think that all of a sudden your browsing experience would be back to normal and all would be okay?

[kryogenik]

You can hardly call them stolen modems if Virgin/NTL tell you they don't want them back and to do what ever you want with it (as they did when my sister and mother canceled). I'm not condoning what is done with the modems.... just pointing out that if they don't want them back and allow you to keep them they are not stolen.

Virgin should collect or make sure all unused modems are returned (even if they are of no use to Virgin).


Some people are selling 25 at a time....

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

Let me put this question to you: If the people using cloned modems were to all of a sudden become honest, paying subscribers do you really think the VM network would be any better? Do you really think that all of a sudden your browsing experience would be back to normal and all would be okay?

That's not the point. The point is, the modems are being cloned, so people ARE being capped as the cloned modems are pinching all the bloody bandwidth.

[Smok3y666]

Some people are selling 25 at a time....

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------



That's not the point. The point is, the modems are being cloned, so people ARE being capped as the cloned modems are pinching all the bloody bandwidth.

It may not be the point but, answer the question, honestly. Do you think the VM network would be any better?

And with regards to people selling 25 modems at a time, so what? Like the previous poster said, if VM don't ask for them back that's their problem. What the buyer does when he/she recieves the modem is up to them not the seller or eBay.

[kryogenik]

I guess yes. I couldn't say for definite, but it's a good bet isn't it?

Do you think it wouldn't make any difference if suddenly multitudes of cloned modems were taken from the network?

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 ----------

The sale of the modems is illegal. I can't put it any clearer than that for you.

[Smok3y666]

I guess yes. I couldn't say for definite, but it's a good bet isn't it?

Do you think it wouldn't make any difference if suddenly multitudes of cloned modems were taken from the network?

Yes it would make a difference, the problem is VM are doing NOTHING to prevent this from happening. At the moment with all the people using the network beit subbed or cloned the network cannot cope with the traffic. The root cause is VM not putting any security in place to prevent bandwith being stolen by cloners and the fact that the network is over subscribed with hosent paying people and cloned modem users, not people selling modems on eBay.

[kryogenik]

Yes it would make a difference, the problem is VM are doing NOTHING to prevent this from happening. At the moment with all the people using the network beit subbed or cloned the network cannot cope with the traffic. The root cause is VM, not people selling modems on eBay.


I don't understand.
You're addressing the obvious point then denying something is adding to it??
People are buying cloned modems hand over fist. Let's forget about eBay for a minute - you can get them anywhere for the price of a packet of fags.
Yes, the network is probably struggling, countless amounts of cloned modems being added to it daily all on the top config isn't likely to make things easier is it? It's going to make it worse, right? Or am I missing something here? :confused:

[Stig]

Some people are selling 25 at a time....

I'm not surprised as there must be thousands of unwanted modems (by Virgin and ex customers). I'm sure anybody could acquire 25+ without actually stealing them. I know two people who have canceled and both still have cable modems gathering dust as Virgin (NTL at the time) did not want them back...

Like I said Virgin should collect all unused modems or make sure they are returned.

It's no good saying they are stolen when virgin discard them by not wanting them back.

[kryogenik]

Yes it would make a difference, the problem is VM are doing NOTHING to prevent this from happening. At the moment with all the people using the network beit subbed or cloned the network cannot cope with the traffic. The root cause is VM not putting any security in place to prevent bandwith being stolen by cloners and the fact that the network is over subscribed with hosent paying people and cloned modem users, not people selling modems on eBay.

Ah. you edited your post. That's not what you originally said and I was replying to.

I'm out.

---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

I'm not surprised as there must be thousands of unwanted modems (by Virgin and ex customers). I'm sure anybody could acquire 25+ without actually stealing them. I know two people who have canceled and both still have cable modems gathering dust as Virgin (NTL at the time) did not want them back...

Like I said Virgin should collect all unused modems or make sure they are returned.

It's no good saying they are stolen when virgin discard them by not wanting them back.

The T & C's state the modems remain the property of Virgin.
Regardless of 25+ people or whatever selling them individually to a sole trader.
Them selling them on is illegal. The trader selling them on is illegal.
It's really that simple guys.
Am I one man clapping in a crowd here or what?

[Smok3y666]

I know what the T&C's say but if VM cannot be bothered to collect their equipment are you saying people should keep it lying around their house forever more gathering dust?

[kryogenik]

I know what the T&C's say but if VM cannot be bothered to collect their equipment are you saying people should keep it lying around their house forever more gathering dust?

:rolleyes:
It's hardly a large cumbersome thing is it.
I'm not suggesting they do any such thing. I would suggest that selling it is illegal though.
Again.

Just because VM don't do the right thing doesn't mean anyone else has carte blanche to do the same.

[Stig]

The T & C's state the modems remain the property of Virgin.
Regardless of 25+ people or whatever selling them individually to a sole trader.
Them selling them on is illegal. The trader selling them on is illegal.
It's really that simple guys.
Am I one man clapping in a crowd here or what?

Not arguing for the sake of it (HONEST) but...


Selling them may be illegal but that does not mean they are stolen. People are told NTL/Virgin do not want them back.....

Added to that is the fact when asked what should be done with the modem my mother and sister were both told to "do what ever they want with it"... how many others are told the same?

Virgin should ensure collection or return and make it clear you can't sell it on or it'll never end.

[kryogenik]

Virgin should ensure collection or return and make it clear you can't sell it on or it'll never end.

I agree - that said, I can only go off my own experience.
I still have an old STB here. I was told NTL would have someone collect it.
I said if they didn't I would leave it on the doorstep. I didn't of course. And they didn't come for it either.
I wouldn't dream of selling it though, as I'm an honest, stand up guy with a family etc.
:)
I don't like the idea of a criminal record or a fine.
It's under a shelf in the airing cupboard I think.

[Smok3y666]

Another example: my partners dad is with VM and there have been loads of problems in the Stoke area recently. He phoned VM and they said they would send him a new modem out straight away with a new MAC and to do whatever he wanted with the one that was no longer working. Again, the issue was with the network not the modem. So, what is he to do with the now redundant modem when VM don not want it back? Bin it, send it back anyway or make a bit of money from it selling it on?

[kryogenik]

Send it back anyway? Bin it?
Anything that won't lead to it being cloned and used illegally to the detriment of the network perhaps?
Hey, call me old fashioned - that's what I'd do.

[TheNorm]

... Bin it? ....

...The T & C's state the modems remain the property of Virgin....

You can't have it both ways.

All VM has to do is offer a £5 discount off your bill if you return your old modem. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

[danielf]

You can't have it both ways.

All VM has to do is offer a £5 discount off your bill if you return your old modem. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

When I left a month about a month ago they sent me a self-addressed box asking me to return both my STB and modem, which I duly did. When I left NTL a few years back, they collected the STB and didn't bother with the modem. I don't know what they do with people that subscribe to just BB.

[kryogenik]

You can't have it both ways.


I don't want it any way thanks.
I don't have an SACM, redundant or otherwise.
;)
Don't be so pedantic Norm - you know I've been saying all along that the damn thing out and out belongs to Virgin.
FWIW, I think you're right - any incentive would do. Even sending out a return stamped jiffy bag/box (as they obviously do with some).
It's clear VM don't give a hoot what happens to their modems, and until they do this will carry on and on.
Mr Angry's point was that some people actually do care, even if VM don't.

[TheNorm]

...Don't be so pedantic Norm ....

I can't help it... I'm a Virgo...:tiptoe:

[kryogenik]

Still..???
;)

[tweetypie/8]

Those terribly nice people at ebay sent me an email asking me to take part in a survey and to be as honest as possible.

Here are two of my answers which might cause them some food for thought.

Enjoy.

ebay wont give a toss so long as the money keeps rolling in :D

[kryogenik]

ebay wont give a toss so long as the money keeps rolling in :D

That's the general consensus, yes - but not strictly true.
When (IF) they're contacted in good time by the relevant people with the right credentials, they do all they can.

[ECW_Original]

Send it back anyway? Bin it?
Anything that won't lead to it being cloned and used illegally to the detriment of the network perhaps?
Hey, call me old fashioned - that's what I'd do.

This is exactly what I did recently!
VM sent me out a new modem, then when I asked what to do with the old 1, they told me to bin it, but before I made sure that modem wasnt gonna be use anymore, I put my huge sledgehammer through it a few times first, this achieving 2 purposes, 1) to vent my fustration out on something, and 2) to stop it being used anymore!

So all in all, not ALL violence is bad ya know!!:angel::angel:

[Stig]

All VM has to do is offer a £5 discount off your bill if you return your old modem. Not exactly rocket science, is it?

But Virgin don't want them back.... The problem is not the lack of an insentive... even people wanting to send them back are told to keep them..... and what bill if they are leaving Virgin??

[Mr Angry]

You can hardly call them stolen modems if Virgin/NTL tell you they don't want them back and to do what ever you want with it (as they did when my sister and mother canceled). I'm not condoning what is done with the modems.... just pointing out that if they don't want them back and allow you to keep them they are not stolen.

Virgin should collect or make sure all unused modems are returned (even if they are of no use to Virgin).

I can call them stolen modems because under the definition of "Using our equipment" in the VM T&C's there is no provision whatsoever for them, or anyone else, to authorize anyone to dispose of, sell, rent or lease what is clearly their (VM's) property (Equipment).

E Using our equipment

Where we hire equipment to you it will be our property at all times and we may need to alter or replace it from time to time. For us to do this, we will need reasonable access to your home.
You are responsible for making sure that our equipment is safe and used properly at all times. To do this, you agree to do the following:
Follow the manufacturer's instructions and any other instructions we have given you;
Keep the equipment under your control (for example, you may not sell it, lend it or hire it out to anyone else, put it up as security for a loan or mortgage, or allow it to be seized under any legal process against you). You must not move our equipment from your home without our permission;
Insure any of our equipment against any loss, theft or damage for the full replacement value;
Not remove, tamper with or cross out any words or labels on our equipment;
Take proper care at all times to prevent the loss or theft of our equipment.
You agree to tell us immediately about any loss or damage to any part of our equipment. You should do this by phoning, emailing or writing to our Customer Care team. You agree that you are responsible for any loss of or damage to the equipment, regardless of how it happens. We will charge you for any loss of or damage to the equipment.
If we or you end this agreement, or you decide to disconnect from some of our services, you must return our equipment to us (or let us collect it from you if we choose to do this). You must return equipment or make it available for collection in a reasonable condition, allowing for fair wear and tear. If you fail to return or make available the equipment for collection for any reason, we are entitled to charge you for the replacement cost of the equipment. If we hold any money we may use that money towards the cost of the equipment. If we have supplied you with any additional equipment, we'd encourage you to dispose of it responsibly if you're no longer using it so please contact us for further information about disposing of your additional equipment.This is what VM will attest your mother signed up to and what she might say may or may not have been relayed to her by a member of staff will not matter a jot - she's in clear contravention of the contract terms and VM would have no problem asserting that breach were they minded to do so.

[flowrebmit]

Point 2 b) with VM's permission you could bin it?

[slowcoach]

This is exactly what I did recently!
VM sent me out a new modem, then when I asked what to do with the old 1, they told me to bin it, but before I made sure that modem wasnt gonna be use anymore, I put my huge sledgehammer through it a few times first, this achieving 2 purposes, 1) to vent my fustration out on something, and 2) to stop it being used anymore!

So all in all, not ALL violence is bad ya know!!:angel::angel:
I think I will buy a few off ebay, sounds like good therapy,
hey!!, maybe that's why they are selling so many, maybe it's nothing to do with cloning. :dunce:

[Mr Angry]

Point 2 b) with VM's permission you could bin it?

2b refers to physical movement / relocation, not disposal.

It is preceded by the tenet 2 which as you can see states "You are responsible for making sure that our equipment is safe and used properly at all times". To do this, you agree to do the following:

[danielf]

2b refers to physical movement / relocation, not disposal.

It is preceded by the tenet 2 which as you can see states "You are responsible for making sure that our equipment is safe and used properly at all times". To do this, you agree to do the following:

So basically, when VM tell you to bin it you will need to store it in the loft until you die? That seems a bit excessive.

Also, are you still under an obligation to have the modem insured for full replacement value when it sits there collecting dust despite VM's instructions to relocate it to the bin?

[Stig]

I can call them stolen modems because under the definition of "Using our equipment" in the VM T&C's there is no provision whatsoever for them, or anyone else, to authorize anyone to dispose of, sell, rent or lease what is clearly their (VM's) property (Equipment).

This is what VM will attest your mother signed up to and what she might say may or may not have been relayed to her by a member of staff will not matter a jot - she's in clear contravention of the contract terms and VM would have no problem asserting that breach were they minded to do so.

But my mother lives in the real world where any rational person hearing the circumstances (told by an NTL employee she could do as she liked with it) would never call anything my mother did with the modem theft or count the modem as stolen.

The modems were given (rightly or wrongly) to my mother and sister by a member of Ntl's staff. It seems to be how NTL/Virgin deal with old modems and not something ex customers are just doing. If this is how Virgin/NTL operate then the T&C matter not one bit in this instance.

So basically, when VM tell you to bin it you will need to store it in the loft until you die? That seems a bit excessive.

Also, are you still under an obligation to have the modem insured for full replacement value when it sits there collecting dust despite VM's instructions to relocate it to the bin?


:LOL: :clap:

[bonzoe]

Just another slant on this.

I thought that suppliers of electronic equipment have to provide some means of recycling old equipment in an enviromentally friendly way, so shouldn't VM be doing something good for the environment?

Don't Currys now recycle old fridges etc? Why can't VM do their bit for the environment?

[Mr Angry]

But my mother lives in the real world where any rational person hearing the circumstances (told by an NTL employee she could do as she liked with it) would never call anything my mother did with the modem theft or count the modem as stolen.

The "real world" in which your mother lives is subject to law, specifically contractual law to which she is a subscribing party / signatory. An ntl employee has no legal right to tell your mother what he/she feels she should do with the modem - the provisions are clear in the Terms and Conditions.

The modems were given (rightly or wrongly) to my mother and sister by a member of Ntl's staff.

That'll be "wrongly", see above.

It seems to be how NTL/Virgin deal with old modems and not something ex customers are just doing. If this is how Virgin/NTL operate then the T&C matter not one bit in this instance.

I'm afraid the Terms and Conditions of the contract carry more weight, with all due respect, than your mother's say so. Welcome to "the real world"

Originally Posted by danielf http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33622562-well-they-did-ask-post-34417983.html#post34417983)
So basically, when VM tell you to bin it you will need to store it in the loft until you die? That seems a bit excessive.

Also, are you still under an obligation to have the modem insured for full replacement value when it sits there collecting dust despite VM's instructions to relocate it to the bin?

VM would be quite happy for people to do this - it saves them the money and bother of honouring their legal obligations under the disposal of electrical goods act.

[Stig]

The "real world" in which your mother lives is subject to law, specifically contractual law to which she is a subscribing party / signatory. An ntl employee has no legal right to tell your mother what he/she feels she should do with the modem - the provisions are clear in the Terms and Conditions.

So after binning said unwanted modems how many people have or will be prosecuted??? ... In the real world Virgin don't want them and tell you to bin them if you ask what to do with them.... Like any prosecution would succeed :rolleyes:

...anyway like I said my Mum and sister still have them... but only because I told them not to just bin them. I know (like you) what "should" happen.... but in the real world it ain't like that.

[Mr Angry]

So after binning said unwanted modems how many people have or will be prosecuted??? ... In the real world Virgin don't want them and tell you to bin them if you ask what to do with them.... Like any prosecution would succeed :rolleyes:

A prosecution would certainly succeed - it's there in black and white.

As you've pointed out - the fault lies with Virgin's apparent unwillingness to pursue those who are clearly breaking their T&C's, and in some cases the law, by facilitating the theft of services in favour of employing debt collection companies to hound people for a few meagre pounds of debt.

Go figure.

[danielf]

A prosecution would certainly succeed - it's there in black and white.

As you've pointed out - the fault lies with Virgin's apparent unwillingness to pursue those who are clearly breaking their T&C's, and in some cases the law, by facilitating the theft of services in favour of employing debt collection companies to hound people for a few meagre pounds of debt.

Go figure.

Then may I suggest the following course of action? If it's all there in black and white (personally, I'd say it is a dull shade of grey), then it would be perfectly reasonable to send VM a bill for a. storage of the modem which you say would lead to a conviction if binned as advised by VM representatives, and b. the cost to you to insure said modem (as you are contractually obliged to do).

If a case by VM against someone binning their modem is certain to succeed, then surely a case against VM for costs incurred as a result of them advising they will not collect the modem is equally likely to succeed? All you need to do is argue (convincingly) that a case by VM against someone who binned a modem on their advice will certainly succeed. Job done.

[Mr Angry]

Then may I suggest the following course of action? If it's all there in black and white (personally, I'd say it is a dull shade of grey), then it would be perfectly reasonable to send VM a bill for a. storage of the modem which you say would lead to a conviction if binned as advised by VM representatives, and b. the cost to you to insure said modem (as you are contractually obliged to do).

How would you realistically propose that someone would prove it "reasonable" for them to retrospectively claim costs in respect of something which they voluntarily undertook under clause 2c in the original contract?

If a case by VM against someone binning their modem is certain to succeed, then surely a case against VM for costs incurred as a result of them advising they will not collect the modem is equally likely to succeed? All you need to do is argue (convincingly) that a case by VM against someone who binned a modem on their advice will certainly succeed. Job done.

No, see above. In the event that someone was minded to undertake such an action they would firstly need to be able to prove that their household insurance premium, post contract, was artificially inflated as a result of the equipment in their home. Ditto with proving storage costs.

Additionally, private house owners are not legally allowed to charge "storage" for items or goods on or in their premises as this invalidates the term of their household insurance in that providing or charging "storage" services constitutes a provision of a business service.

Anything else I can help you with?

[Stig]

A prosecution would certainly succeed - it's there in black and white.



It is not certain to succeed. Virgin/Ntl employees are not taking it upon themselves to advise binning the modems, even if they were Virgin should and would stop them and it is an internal matter. The employees are representatives of Virgin/Ntl and as such are letting the people who are bound by Virgin/Ntl T&C off the hook.

No court in the land would convict somebody of theft if the originator (or rep) of the T&C was "letting you off" by telling you to bin the modem after you had tried to give it back.

and....

If we or you end this agreement, or you decide to disconnect from some of our services, you must return our equipment to us (or let us collect it from you if we choose to do this). You must return equipment or make it available for collection in a reasonable condition, allowing for fair wear and tear. If you fail to return or make available the equipment for collection for any reason, we are entitled to charge you for the replacement cost of the equipment........ If we have supplied you with any additional equipment, we'd encourage you to dispose of it responsibly if you're no longer using it so please contact us for further information about disposing of your additional equipment. means that if you had tried to return the modem and Virgin/NTL told you to bin it a prosecution would be as near impossible as you could get


If you'd like to test this out I'll get my Mum to trash/bin her modem and I'll pass her details on to Virgins legal dept..... Nothing will happen. The case would be dismissed because Virgin don't want them and make it near impossible for you to return the modem making a nonsense of the T&C.

[danielf]

How would you realistically propose that someone would prove it "reasonable" for them to retrospectively claim costs in respect of something which they voluntarily undertook under clause 2c in the original contract?

After termination of the contract you are left with an item that needs insuring under said contract. Now surely, if they can hold you to this contract when it comes to disposing items, then surely the same holds for items that need insuring under the same contract after it expired.


No, see above. In the event that someone was minded to undertake such an action they would firstly need to be able to prove that their household insurance premium, post contract, was artificially inflated as a result of the equipment in their home. Ditto with proving storage costs.

Additionally, private house owners are not legally allowed to charge "storage" for items or goods on or in their premises as this invalidates the term of their household insurance in that providing or charging "storage" services constitutes a provision of a business service.

That probably is a good point.

Anyway, A judge would probably laugh VM out of court if they took action against someone who binned a modem on their advice (particularly if they regularly advise people to do so). It may be there in the T&Cs, but that doesn't mean a judge will find these conditions fair. I once signed a lease on a house which stipulated I was not allowed to have guests. When queried, the estate agent said there was no way that would stand up in court. I think he was right. Judges will assess the fairness of conditions (particularly when it comes to consumers). In this case VM don't have a leg to stand on imo.


Anything else I can help you with?

Actually: I have a Modem in the loft that wants relocating to the bin. I find it a bit heavy. Come and give us a hand will you? :)

[Smok3y666]

Mr Angry, if it bothers you so much why don't you just cancel you VM subscription? The fact is VM don't care what happens to their modems regardless of what their T&C's say and cloners don't care about you suffering poor download speeds so long as they get what they want for nothing. eBay don't care about people selling NTL modems on their auction site so long as eBay are making profit. The only person that does care is you, the person stupid enough to keep paying for a crap service.

[Mick Fisher]

Mr Angry, if it bothers you so much why don't you just cancel you VM subscription? The fact is VM don't care what happens to their modems regardless of what their T&C's say and cloners don't care about you suffering poor download speeds so long as they get what they want for nothing. eBay don't care about people selling NTL modems on their auction site so long as eBay are making profit. The only person that does care is you, the person stupid enough to keep paying for a crap service.
I do believe Mr Angry cancelled his services ages ago.

[JackSon]

Mr Angry, if it bothers you so much why don't you just cancel you VM subscription? The fact is VM don't care what happens to their modems regardless of what their T&C's say and cloners don't care about you suffering poor download speeds so long as they get what they want for nothing. eBay don't care about people selling NTL modems on their auction site so long as eBay are making profit. The only person that does care is you, the person stupid enough to keep paying for a crap service.

If I recall, Mr Angry did indeed cancel his contract for this very reason some months ago, and even ogt silence on the retentions line when they asked why he was cancelling. So with that in your mind I suggest you settle down with the sweeping assumptions.

Furthermore, Mr Angry is not the only person who cares about this issue - it is a shame that the people in power to perhaps combat it are currently not seen to share the same.

[Smok3y666]

I do believe Mr Angry cancelled his services ages ago.

Then wtf is he moaning about?

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

If I recall, Mr Angry did indeed cancel his contract for this very reason some months ago, and even ogt silence on the retentions line when they asked why he was cancelling. So with that in your mind I suggest you settle down with the sweeping assumptions.

Furthermore, Mr Angry is not the only person who cares about this issue - it is a shame that the people in power to perhaps combat it are currently not seen to share the same.

Then what does that tell you? They don't care so long as you keep paying them.

[JackSon]

It tells me you're fishing for a 'spot the obvious' contest?

[Smok3y666]

So what's the point of the thread?

[Stig]

Then wtf is he moaning about?

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------



Then what does that tell you? They don't care so long as you keep paying them.

:erm: Doh!

Have you read the thread??:rolleyes:

[Mr Angry]

Then wtf is he moaning about?

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------



Then what does that tell you? They don't care so long as you keep paying them.

Do you have a problem with me "moaning" or are you suggesting that everyone should just put up with paying for something that others are stealing?

[JackSon]

As you have so expertly cottened on to, the powers that be don't care as it seemes the cost of losing customers is less than putting into action the prevention of cloned services. That is an assumption of my own anyway.
So, the 'point' of this thread is to put pressure onto the higher ups from all angles to make this issue more in the public eye and also to help prevent the supply of the stolen kit.
My Angry should be commended for his crusade in this respect because after cancelling his contract, his hands could have been washed of it.
With respect to "wtf he is moaning about" only he can say, but I speuclate that he feels he was forced into cancelling because of no action of VM's part to save him from poor service as a result of the underlying criminal activity.

[Smok3y666]

Do you have a problem with me "moaning" or are you suggesting that everyone should just put up with paying for something that others are stealing?

Well people are obvioulsy putting up with cloners stealing bandwidth or else VM would have done something about it.

[Mr Angry]

Well people are obvioulsy putting up with cloners stealing bandwidth or else VM would have done something about it.

So, the fact that VM have done nothing about it is based on their assumption that no one minds, is that what you're saying?

[Stig]

Do you have a problem with me "moaning"?

I think this thread has gone bonkers.... he's posting to moan about you moaning...

...At least your moan was on topic :rofl:

Now where do I unsubscribe??

[Mr Angry]

I think this thread has gone bonkers.... he's posting to moan about you moaning...

...At least your moan was on topic :rofl:

Now where do I unsubscribe??

You can't unsubscribe yet.

[Stig]

You can't unsubscribe yet.

It's not a 12mth thing is it?? :rofl:

[Mr Angry]

It's not a 12mth thing is it?? :rofl:

Yes, 30 days notice and all that. Besides, no one appears to have cloned any of your posts yet!

[Stig]

:LOL: