Bit of a guitar question

[greencreeper]

Joe South has been described as having a "distinct guitar sound". I'd like to know what he's doing to achieve it. To me, it sounds a little like kettle drums! Listen to the start of the classic "Games People Play" and you'll hear what I mean.

Thoughts?

[Chicken]

Who?

[Gareth]

I think he did it by using lots of reverb.

[greencreeper]

Who?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_South


I think he did it by using lots of reverb.
Hmmm :scratch:

[Gareth]

although it also sounds like he used a sitar too.

[greencreeper]

although it also sounds like he used a sitar too.
Yeah - it has that sound. From pictures though, I don't think he did. I've been doing a bit of Googling but not found any definitive explanation.

[punky]

As Gareth said, there's a bit of reverb on the amp. The amp is basically what sets the tone. However, he's doing a lot of string bending. The fingers bend the string so it stretches/becomes tighter. This gradually(and smoothly) raises the pitch of the note. The string is released and so it goes back.

Edit: If you look at this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znh58WITU8) on YouTube, you can see him do it, @ about 17 seconds in.

[greencreeper]

They don't make videos like that anymore :D I think I understand what you mean. Sort of like the noise when you twang a ruler on a desk, and move it out from the desk and in again? Must be technically quite demaning, as well as stressing the strings?


[edit] I listened to Introspect last night and got a bit of shock. The opener is Hush, which is a Deep Purple song - never knew South wrote it. Indeed, there are a few classics on the album that he wrote and were subsequently covered by others. "Don't it Make You Wanna Go Home" just makes me so sad. Much of the areas where I used to play as a kid, roaming free, are now built upon. He's a bit of an unknown gem.

[Delta Whiskey]

They don't make videos like that anymore :D I think I understand what you mean. Sort of like the noise when you twang a ruler on a desk, and move it out from the desk and in again? Must be technically quite demaning, as well as stressing the strings?

There are different gauges of guitar strings, from a light set starting with a .008 top E string to a heavy set staring with .012. Most electric guitars are sold with a set of .009 or .010 as a balance between usability and tone. I use .008 which allows me to bend the strings very easily, the downside is a lack of warmth in the tone.

[greencreeper]

Right. I'm starting to feel like I'm at school again, learning the cornet, and not understanding any of it and just making noises like a horny elephant. Had a read on Wiki about strings and guitars. All very complicated :disturbd: I guess if he's doing the bending thing, he must therefore be using lighter strings - but being thinner, I'd guess they're more likely to snap :erm:

[Raistlin]

<snip>just making noises like a horny elephant.<snip>

No comment.....

<snip> Had a read on Wiki about strings and guitars. All very complicated :disturbd: I guess if he's doing the bending thing, he must therefore be using lighter strings - but being thinner, I'd guess they're more likely to snap :erm:

You'd think so, although you'd have to go some to break a fresh set of strings. Most of the time the worst that will happen is that you'll stretch the string slightly and lose your tuning, although if the strings are properly broken in this is rarely a problem.

Remember that in reality you're rarely stretching more than a tone, sometimes a tone and a half.

[greencreeper]

Do you stretch with the left or right hand - I'm having trouble following his hands in that video. It also looks like there are only 3 strings, which I'd not noticed before - is this normal/common?


[edit]I wanted the violin - they gave me a cornet. It's a lesson for life. I did once of these online music test things - short bursts of piano notes. Got an email back saying I'd scored above average. Means that I can tell when something isn't right with what I'm hearing - though I've no idea why it's not right, and I can tell when it is right. It's mad! :D

[Raistlin]

Stretching (or 'bending' as it's more commonly known) is normally done with whichever hand you are using to fret the notes with (ie. the hand that's pressing the string against the fret board. The other hand (the one that does the strumming) is used to sound the note.

The exception to this would be when one is bending notes by manipulating the string beyond the nut (no comments please). Th nut is the bit right at the end of the fret board where all the strings are seperated and split off towards the tuning pegs. Joe Bonamassa sometimes bends strings by applying pressure to them after the cross the nut, before the get to the peg -he'll fret the note with his left hand, sound it with the plectrum in his right, and then use his right hand on the string past the nut to change the pitch. It's a pretty cool sound :)

http://www.supersonic.net/guitAR/lessons/images/guitardiag.jpg

[greencreeper]

Right. So you make the note, say, an E (there is an E, I think :erm:) and then move the string down (or up - don't suppose it matters??) and back again. I'd imagine you can do a variety of sounds just be varying the speed of stretching and relaxing??

Fascinating stuff is this :D

[Raistlin]

Yep, that's about it.

This video (the first I found, it isn't great by any means) demonstrates what we're talkng about - go to about 2m30 and watch from there to see what he's doing.

Th reason he plays the notes first and then bends them is so that he can get used to how it should sound before bending, there's nothing worse than a bent note that isn't quite in tune.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prhi5FgScEM

[lauzjp]

Right. I'm starting to feel like I'm at school again, learning the cornet, and not understanding any of it and just making noises like a horny elephant...

:rofl:

[punky]

As Raistlin said really.

Strings will break eventually, but you can bend a hell of a lot before they do. The most common side effect of bending strings is that it will go out of tune. That's because the strings stretch and give, and so you tighten them again to back to normal. You have different string thicknesses mainly for sound, certainly not because they are easier to bend. As you said, they'd break easier, so if anything you'd use heavier string.

You can bend downwards, but it depends on what string you are bending. if you bend the high-E (thinnest bottom string) then it will come off the fret board.

If you are into this sort of thing, check out Tom Morello (of Rage Against The Machine fame). He does crazy things with gituars and gets really unique sounds. So much so he has to put a disclaimer in there saying they were generated by guitar

[greencreeper]

Fascinating. I would have thought the strings would touch but they don't. And he stops the note before relaxing the string. It's like I thought though - you can get a variety of sounds with slight variations on the technique, such as the speed of bending.

It's not so much that I'm into the guitar - I'm just naturally curious about how things are done. South's sound is not one I can say I've heard before, and you notice it immediately on songs such as Games People Play.

[edit] And now I know the sound, I can hear it elsewhere. I definitely think it's done on The Air that I Breathe (Hollies).

[punky]

Fascinating. I would have thought the strings would touch but they don't.

Basically, because when you do, you push the other strings out of the way using the top of your fingers. As they aren't being played though, it doesn't make much difference.

[greencreeper]

Quite a skill really - sounds great, looks simple, but is actually very technical :tu:

[punky]

[edit] And now I know the sound, I can hear it elsewhere. I definitely think it's done on The Air that I Breathe (Hollies).

Indeed. Its not the only way of doing it though. You can also use a tremlo bar/wammy bar. Its a bar that screws into the guitar near where you strum. You push on it and it stretches all the strings in one go. You can also buy pedals (like a wah wah pedal) which munipulate the sound as well.

[greencreeper]

Hmmm. I guess you don't get the feel though - less intimacy with the production of the sound?

[punky]

Hmmm. I guess you don't get the feel though - less intimacy with the production of the sound?

Well, you control the degree with the pedal (see into (upto 28 secs) here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHoDKldosXk), so the feel is there as much as bending the strings anyway. Its not just an on/off like most other effects pedals.

[greencreeper]

Hmmm. It's different though.

[Rockabilly Spike]

as a self taught guitar player since i was 12 (now 30), i find it more impressive what people can play with their fingers and not using vast amounts of fx and pedals.
tom morello never impressed me by making weird noises with a guitar cos his riffs all sound the same in principle.
all the RATM and Audioslavestuff was the same basic riffs.

Brian Setzer of The Stray Cats is at the absolute top of his game.
check out this video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q8GbJYceG7s
let me tell you that its so difficult to play loud, accurate and in a clean tone rather than hiding behind walls of overdrive. brian rules

Steve Vai is an awesome player and exponent of ALL styles.
check out this video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OhTZPnOrvpo
his guitar is tuned a full tone down to D instead of E and the bottom string tuned down a further tone to C#
making good use of the whammy bar and wahwah

[greencreeper]

Both very skilled, clearly, though not quite the usual thing I'd be found listening to :D Creative use of the guitar as an instrument - interesting to watch.

[Rockabilly Spike]

i dunno i woulda thought a little bit of rockabilly would go alongside some joe south?
or is even some of the classic Sun records stuff to wild for ya?

[greencreeper]

I'm not really a wild excess rock type of guy :D

[Delta Whiskey]

Right. So you make the note, say, an E (there is an E, I think :erm:) and then move the string down (or up - don't suppose it matters??) and back again. I'd imagine you can do a variety of sounds just be varying the speed of stretching and relaxing??

Fascinating stuff is this :D

Does this help?

[greencreeper]

That's nice and clear, DW - that's not you is it?

[Delta Whiskey]

That's nice and clear, DW - that's not you is it?

I'm afraid so, just stuck the webcam onto the guitar and recorded it with VirtualDub a few minutes ago. Have another one from my resonator guitar. :D

[Rockabilly Spike]

weird to hear that 1950's style rockabilly is a bit too 'wild'. hahha
each to their own.

[greencreeper]

I'm afraid so, just stuck the webcam onto the guitar and recorded it with VirtualDub a few minutes ago. Have another one from my resonator guitar. :D
:nworthy:

Thanks for taking the time to make the clip :)

[Delta Whiskey]

:nworthy:

Thanks for taking the time to make the clip :)

No problem, it was a good question that you asked.

I love the 'net for this sort of thing, I've learned so much by being able to see someone demonstrate a technique than I ever learned from a book and photographs. I wanted to try some slide guitar (hence the resonator guitar), I found a company called Watch & Learn http://www.cvls.com/ who sell tutorial videos for small money (most $4.99 about £2.45), very useful.