View Full Version : What, if anything, are VM doing about cloned modems?
Mr Angry
03-07-2007, 21:13
I'd really like someone at VM to afford me and other legal paying customers something by way of an assurance that something is being done about cloned modems.
All too often I have seen posters on CF berating others / moaning about "having to subsidise" customers who have, legitimately, negotiated deals with retentions. The fact of the matter is that there are people out there stealing services who you are having to subsidise and VM seem, to all intents and purposes, indifferent to the fact.
I have not, as far as I can ascertain, been subjected to the recently introduced traffic management - nor do I ever anticipate a scenario whereby I would be in a position to have exceeded the "unlimited" limits. I have recently had a VM tech at my address to remedy what can only be described as exceptionally poor connection speeds which he himself attributed to network problems and the number of cloned modems on the network.
Now, I don't want this being dismissed or treated as another "Traffic shaping thread" or another "Poor connection speeds" thread. The question is very specific and pertinent - what are VM doing about this issue?
If there are two instances of a MAC address on the network then there is obviously a very real possibility that something illegal is going on and the legal customer stands a very real chance of being penalized for something entirely beyond their control. Why do VM not simply disable the MAC address and await the legitimate account holder to contact them?
I, for one, would like VM to show / prove that they are being proactive in this regard and not simply taking me and my £37.00 per month as a given. To that end I would invite them to send an engineer / tech to my street to identify any cloned modems in that vicinity. My street postal code is BT17 0SY (Belfast) and there is only one junction box that I am aware of.
If my modem has been cloned I have no issue with the loss of service until I phone and identify myself as the true account holder (it would be really nice if VM set up a freephone number for this purpose) as that way I can be relatively assured that I am not being taken for a ride and fobbed of with quasi tech speak excuses from a company who cannot address fraud when it is staring them in the face - but would rather adopt an ostrich approach.
If you're aware of or suspect that your service is being restricted as a result of cloned modems in your area then why not post your postcode in this thread and help VM address this problem if they are actually interested in doing so.
TheBlueRaja
03-07-2007, 21:16
Your post is very important to us.
However VM is very busy at the moment traffic shaping our network in order to enhance your browsing experience.
If your query is important, please post again later.
Rikkie Beardie B
JASYMORRI
03-07-2007, 21:27
Well I'm paying for a supposed 20 meg service in Belfast and my speeds are terrible the last few days and if it has anything to do with cloned modems and the like (which has to be part of the overall problem) it would make me even more ****ed off than I am already :(
Totally agree with you. VM need to sort out the problem.
papa smurf
03-07-2007, 21:43
we have a fraud dept:tu:
Because somebody clones modems, doesn't mean they automatically are going to hammer the torrents. They can simply just be getting a bent modem so they don't have to pay.
rockabillybass
03-07-2007, 21:48
That's good that there's a fraud department but what steps do they take to catch the cloners?...
Mr Angry
03-07-2007, 21:48
we have a fraud dept:tu:
Well it's quite obviously "dormant" given the fact that people can roll off the tip of their tongue the name, address and price in respect of how to acquire a cloned modem in Belfast.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here Papa Smurf but that's how it is here in Belfast and I'm sure it's the same in many major cities across the UK. Having a fraud department that isn't visibly proactive is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
papa smurf
03-07-2007, 21:54
Well it's quite obviously "dormant" given the fact that people can roll off the tip of their tongue the name, address and price in respect of how to acquire a cloned modem in Belfast.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here Papa Smurf but that's how it is here in Belfast and I'm sure it's the same in many major cities across the UK. Having a fraud department that isn't visibly proactive is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
i know of collegues who have reported cloners and box chippers ,but they have never recieved any feedback,so i have no idea if any action is taken
brundles
04-07-2007, 01:57
The problem is that even if you can track down the people providing the cloned modems (rather than just those using them) it doesn't address the problem that it can be done. Stopping a cloner is kind of like the old whack-a-mole game - you knock one down and another pops up.
While VM may have a fraud dept to knock down the odd person, is there a long term plan to actually remove/block the hole in the system that allows cloned modems to work?
Mr Angry
04-07-2007, 02:00
While VM may have a fraud dept to knock down the odd person, is there a long term plan to actually remove/block the hole in the system that allows cloned modems to work?
Apparently not.
Your post is very important to us.
However VM is very busy at the moment traffic shaping our network in order to enhance your browsing experience.
If your query is important, please post again later.
Rikkie Beardie B
LOL enhance, more like cripple our browsing experience :td:
Mr Angry
10-07-2007, 14:43
BUMP!!!
I cannot believe the lack of participation from full rate paying customers in this thread.
Nor can I believe that VM are offering new customers "up to" 20meg for £28.00 per month for the first 12 months.
Slap in the face anyone?
slap in the face because new customers get a better offer?
Mr Angry
10-07-2007, 14:50
slap in the face because new customers get a better offer?
Yes.
its to attract new people, loads of companies have introductory offers etc
MovedGoalPosts
10-07-2007, 15:02
It's typical of most British companies to offer discounts to win customers, but very few incentives to hold on to them. The theory being that it's harder to win new custom, than retain existing.... With the apathy of many customers to do something about it, even if they aren't satisfied, why change that policy for the vociferous few?
As for the original post concerning cloned modems or whatever. I'm quite sure a lot of efforts go on to prevent or minimise this. But do you really think someone like VM is going to say what they do, and give a heads up to the those who steal their services? But even so it's worth considering that those who are up to no good will always be seeking to stay one step ahead of those who are trying to bolt the door - rather like spammers and virus writers.
BUMP!!!
I cannot believe the lack of participation from full rate paying customers in this thread.
Nor can I believe that VM are offering new customers "up to" 20meg for £28.00 per month for the first 12 months.
Slap in the face anyone?
If you want to know something that will make you Mr MoreAngry...
Now I don't have any sources for this... Just whispers as it were... But allegedly, NTL and VM have the power to disable chipped STBs but they don't because for chipped boxes to work they need the TV basic package, whereas if they disabled the chipped box, they'd get nothing.
Mr Angry
10-07-2007, 15:19
It's typical of most British companies to offer discounts to win customers, but very few incentives to hold on to them. The theory being that it's harder to win new custom, than retain existing.... With the apathy of many customers to do something about it, even if they aren't satisfied, why change that policy for the vociferous few?
Yes Rob (and Richy), I understand the premise of attracting new customers and in general have no issues, and indeed would encourage, innovation in that regard. What I have an issue with in this scenario is the fact that VM and it's existing customer base who pay full rate for this particular service are fully aware that their network cannot, in its current state, sustain the demands of existing customers - nevermind newly attracted custom on a discounted rate.
VM is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion with the conductor strolling the aisles insulting the paying customers.
As for the original post concerning cloned modems or whatever. I'm quite sure a lot of efforts go on to prevent or minimise this. But do you really think someone like VM is going to say what they do, and give a heads up to the those who steal their services? But even so it's worth considering that those who are up to no good will always be seeking to stay one step ahead of those who are trying to bolt the door - rather like spammers and virus writers.
A "lot of effort" for a minimal (if any at all) impact I must say. That's a very defeatist attitude you're espousing. I'm not interested in someone from VM coming on the forum and giving me a blow by blow account of their failed efforts to address or circumvent this theft. What I would like is someone to come forward with a rational explanation as to why, if they can identify a 5% of abusers and trumpet this in the public domain, they can't identify two identical MAC addresses and terminate service to both until such time as the legitimate customer contacts them.
EDIT - Thanks for that Gav, I have been aware of this also.
UncleBooBoo
10-07-2007, 15:33
You can purchase chipped modems on ebay for £18 with free P&P!
I know I bought one! However before anyone screams at me I have never used it. I pay for a 4MB connection as well as cable TV and thats what I get through hardware they supplied!
I was thinking about it though, and I did my homework it is in fact very easy to do. Decided it's not worth getting caught and end up with a criminal record and a big bill!
brundles
10-07-2007, 16:15
It's typical of most British companies to offer discounts to win customers, but very few incentives to hold on to them. The theory being that it's harder to win new custom, than retain existing.... With the apathy of many customers to do something about it, even if they aren't satisfied, why change that policy for the vociferous few?
The bit that doesn't make sense there is that there is also generally a bigger overhead to attracting and setting up new customer than there is to keeping existing customers. i.e. Offering the same deal to existing customers would still net them higher overall profits than the new customers it was offered to.
I suspect there are many people happy with the service who would happily sign up for another 12 month tie in if they got the discount.
Mobile operators have grasped this concept - and you can generally see that when you phone up to cancel.
If you want to know something that will make you Mr MoreAngry...
Now I don't have any sources for this... Just whispers as it were... But allegedly, NTL and VM have the power to disable chipped STBs but they don't because for chipped boxes to work they need the TV basic package, whereas if they disabled the chipped box, they'd get nothing.
So as long as VM get something out of these thieves, that's ok because the paying customer will subsidise it? That defies logic.:mad:
Mr Angry....and others.
VM are aware of the issue, always have been. It would not be prudent for them to officially announce beforehand what they do, and intend to do. Its not just about dissabling any modem that shouldn't be getting free services, it is also about catching and prosecuting those who do.
Keep in mind that modem alteration and use in this country is illegal, and that modem manufacturers work with their customers to reduce fraud.
I know it must be frustrating to think that nothing is being done, but a lack of any official response does not mean its an ignored problem.
My opinion obviously, for what its worth.
If you want to know something that will make you Mr MoreAngry...
Now I don't have any sources for this... Just whispers as it were... But allegedly, NTL and VM have the power to disable chipped STBs but they don't because for chipped boxes to work they need the TV basic package, whereas if they disabled the chipped box, they'd get nothing.
am i the only one that can't make sense of the above?
isn't the whole point of disabling the boxes that it makes them NOT work?
I think he means (as the rumour has it) that VM would rather have an STB that pays for basic TV and steals broadband, than a disabled STB that pays for no service at all.
If you want to know something that will make you Mr MoreAngry...
Now I don't have any sources for this... Just whispers as it were... But allegedly, NTL and VM have the power to disable chipped STBs but they don't because for chipped boxes to work they need the TV basic package, whereas if they disabled the chipped box, they'd get nothing.
sorry Gav but i would have to dispute some of what you have posted.
Incomplete
10-07-2007, 17:58
BUMP!!!
I cannot believe the lack of participation from full rate paying customers in this thread.
Nor can I believe that VM are offering new customers "up to" 20meg for £28.00 per month for the first 12 months.
Slap in the face anyone?
They have people who actually pay full price? Wow ;)
I think he means (as the rumour has it) that VM would rather have an STB that pays for basic TV and steals broadband, than a disabled STB that pays for no service at all.
i was under the impression that STBs weren't cloned for broadband, only modems were. Having people watch TV on chipped STBs doesn't directly cost VM money afaik, only the lost [potential (ie not guarenteed)] revenue. Modems on the other hand will cost in bandwidth fees etc
Semantics though isn't it, whether they stealing BB or extra TV through a chipped box, the translation of the rumour is the same. As long as VM don't disable the offending box, they will get the revenue from the basic package that the thief pays for to keep the line active whilst obtaining additional service. If they disable the chipped STB they lose the revenue for the basic package the theif was paying.
Semantics though isn't it, whether they stealing BB or extra TV through a chipped box, the translation of the rumour is the same. As long as VM don't disable the offending box, they will get the revenue from the basic package that the thief pays for to keep the line active whilst obtaining additional service. If they disable the chipped STB they lose the revenue for the basic package the theif was paying.
although i dont understand what gavin actually meant, i'm not sure if that was what he meant.
if it is the case someone has a cloned modem and a legal tv service, surely vm could just start billing them for the modem (assuming proper evidence). If the "customer" is stupid enough to then call up, get the cs person to say they'll book a vm person to collect the modem and see what happens
A very true point. I shant speculate though as it wasn't my input, only supplied a witnesses' translation ;)
There is no such thing as a cloned STB modem. They CANNOT be cloned.
Now seating back and waiting for the know it all to come along and say they can. :rolleyes:
And there are some here that try to do something about them.
Mr Angry
10-07-2007, 18:59
Mr Angry....and others.
VM are aware of the issue, always have been. It would not be prudent for them to officially announce beforehand what they do, and intend to do. Its not just about dissabling any modem that shouldn't be getting free services, it is also about catching and prosecuting those who do.
Keep in mind that modem alteration and use in this country is illegal, and that modem manufacturers work with their customers to reduce fraud.
I know it must be frustrating to think that nothing is being done, but a lack of any official response does not mean its an ignored problem.
My opinion obviously, for what its worth.
Toto, with all due respect and acknowledging that what you have stated is your opinion, I cannot find a single instance using either Google or Yahoo's search engines of a record of someone having been prosecuted or fined for stealing NTL / Virgin Media broadband services.
Are you suggesting that their prudence with regard to any ongoing attempts on their part to put a stop to this type of illegal behaviour extends to the court reporting service / national media?
Interestingly enough, a cursory search seeking information on how to illegally obtain services does yield high returns.
Don't shoot the messenger guys. Just repeating a rumour that goes around every now and again.
To clarify what I was saying earlier... (Ignore Internet service for the mo). For chipped boxes to work, they require a basic TV package (free with the 11 quid phone package). If they allow chipped boxes, then they get 11 quid a month, plus phone calls. If they'd disabled them, then they'd get 0 quid/month. If they didn't permit the piracy then the people wouldn't start paying for the service, but instead move on to satellite piracy, which is massive in the US.
But its academic anyway as Bill said, its a myth.
Don't shoot the messenger guys. Just repeating a rumour that goes around every now and again.
To clarify what I was saying earlier... (Ignore Internet service for the mo). For chipped boxes to work, they require a basic TV package (free with the 11 quid phone package). If they allow chipped boxes, then they get 11 quid a month, plus phone calls. If they'd disabled them, then they'd get 0 quid/month. If they didn't permit the piracy then the people wouldn't start paying for the service, but instead move on to satellite piracy, which is massive in the US.
But its academic anyway as Bill said, its a myth.
Sorry Gavin
to make my self clear i was talking about the STB modem. ;)
on in an hour!
10-07-2007, 19:07
If you want to know something that will make you Mr MoreAngry...
Now I don't have any sources for this... Just whispers as it were... But allegedly, NTL and VM have the power to disable chipped STBs but they don't because for chipped boxes to work they need the TV basic package, whereas if they disabled the chipped box, they'd get nothing.
'just whispers as it were',thats a very liberal way of starting a 'rumour' post gavin!! its true to say that VM dont specifically target individual chipped box users (although we do get mails from the fraud dept about individuals who have been reported by someone else,and actively diss them in the cab) they are,for obvious reasons more interested in 'hitting' the chipped boxes at source i.e. the monkey with the multiple p.c.'s and stacks of stolen boxes and cards who swamp the towns and cities with them.as to your point of not hitting individuals, there may be some credit to that in that at least they are receiving a minimum subscription from these people (am i the only one who understood the original post about chipped boxes,i.e. he wasnt on about cloned stt's for broadband use!!) but these days you get a stt thrown in for use as a freeview type box,just for signing up to a telco package.also,when stt's are collected after subs disconnect their service they arent taken off in the cab anymore (at least not here in N/W) as they had to take the cab keys off the contractors doing the collections (make of that what you will).along with the fact that there doesnt seem to be any cab audits done anymore (which would see canx adresses dissed off at the cab) in a roundabout way what you say is true,yet they arent getting as much revenue as your original post suggests,but people are still connected in the cab anyway,thus allowing them free reign with their fraudulent equipment.:confused:
I didn't start it :confused:
DerekRothwell
10-07-2007, 19:25
That's good that there's a fraud department but what steps do they take to catch the cloners?...
Probably pass memos about the office before deciding where it should be filed away, then organising a few meetings to decide on policy, then setting up staffing rotas before sending more memos about the building..(start again)
Oops.. thats where I work!!
papa smurf
10-07-2007, 19:33
There is no such thing as a cloned STB modem. They CANNOT be cloned.
Now seating back and waiting for the know it all to come along and say they can. :rolleyes:
And there are some here that try to do something about them.
there'll be no sleep for the geeks tonight then, they'll all be trying to crack this one:D
Don't shoot the messenger guys. Just repeating a rumour that goes around every now and again.
To clarify what I was saying earlier... (Ignore Internet service for the mo). For chipped boxes to work, they require a basic TV package (free with the 11 quid phone package). If they allow chipped boxes, then they get 11 quid a month, plus phone calls. If they'd disabled them, then they'd get 0 quid/month. If they didn't permit the piracy then the people wouldn't start paying for the service, but instead move on to satellite piracy, which is massive in the US.
But its academic anyway as Bill said, its a myth.
that sort of thing doesn't affect VM as much as cloned modems do, which was my point. I'd much prefer VM to go after the cloned modems as they actually affect other customers, cloned TV STBs just receive what is broadcast so won't be taking up bandwidth etc of paying customers.
on in an hour!
10-07-2007, 19:35
I didn't start it :confused:
i said post m8,not thread ;)
JASYMORRI
10-07-2007, 19:48
I'd much prefer VM to go after the cloned modems as they actually affect other customers, cloned TV STBs just receive what is broadcast so won't be taking up bandwidth etc of paying customers.
I agree totally
it costs money to trace......so they dont, its a simple math problem really
WHISTLED
10-07-2007, 20:11
Interesting thread this - have enjoyed reading it.
I want to answer so many points but a brief summary will do I think..
First of all VM do switch off services identified as fraudulent on DTV/ATV/Telco and BBAND.. Thats not my oppinion thats fact based on first hand knowledge and experience.
Regarding the earlier comment about us not switching farudulent TV off because we dont want to lose the revenue. RUBBISH.
You dont need the base pack to have such a connection but obviously the address needs to be connected at the cab so this cannot be guaranteed without a package.
Toto, with all due respect and acknowledging that what you have stated is your opinion, I cannot find a single instance using either Google or Yahoo's search engines of a record of someone having been prosecuted or fined for stealing NTL / Virgin Media broadband services
Mr Angry i've had a look on a number of search engines and its pretty hard to find anything about CATV fraud either but that doesnt mean the Product Fraud Team are not working on it constantly.
I cant find a mention of the 2 NE techs that were prosecuted for involvement in such activities yet I know it happened.
I will say that work is prioritised by percieved risk and loss of revenue and the BBAND cloning is not on the scale you seem to believe
it costs money to trace......so they dont, its a simple math problem really
No its a simple case of posting with no knowledge of subject matter.
20meg for £28.00 thats still a rip off considering VM suck.
TraxData
10-07-2007, 20:26
it costs money to trace......so they dont, its a simple math problem really
That's not why they dont stop cloned modems.
It's a simple factor of being more hassle than it's worth, especially if the person who has a cloned modem pays for other services from VM.
also, if cloned modems are traced back to a rough area, it also will not get removed and as i've said before, if you ask a tech what happens when u disconnect someone in a rough/chav area, you know u end up with the whole street ganging up on you :p:
papa smurf
10-07-2007, 20:31
20meg for £28.00 thats still a rip off considering VM suck.
suck what exactly...............and any way this isnt about pricing its about cloning
20meg for £28.00 thats still a rip off considering VM suck.
Dont forget the previous thread posted, where the majority of VM customers that voted were more than happy with their services, me included! :tu:
As for cloned modems, I dont believe the problem is as major as Mr Angry claims, where are the facts that this is a massive nationwide problem? Please link me to them.
Anyway im a fine upstanding citizen and would never dabble in such naughty activities :D :D
the BBAND cloning is not on the scale you seem to believe
This is a forum not a comedy show :rolleyes:
To Add my bit on this.
It would only take a look around the pubs on a Friday and Saturday night
It would only take a look at the computer fairs
It would only take a look at the car boot sales on a Sunday
It would only take a look at Ebay
To make the extent of this crime so evident to those that need to deal with it
Mr Angry
10-07-2007, 20:42
Mr Angry i've had a look on a number of search engines and its pretty hard to find anything about CATV fraud either but that doesnt mean the Product Fraud Team are not working on it constantly.
I cant find a mention of the 2 NE techs that were prosecuted for involvement in such activities yet I know it happened.
This is fair comment however, knowing what I do of such activities on the part of several now ex NTL techs based in Belfast I can tell you that whilst NTL sacked the individuals employed they did and continue to do absolutely nothing about the several hundred customers who continue to avail of free services as a result of the illegal sales of doctored boxes by the techs in question.
I will say that work is prioritised by percieved risk and loss of revenue and the BBAND cloning is not on the scale you seem to believe.
What degree of mathematical ability would it take to weigh up the perceived loss of revenue in a scenario where, say for example, someone like me paying £37.00 a month would consider leaving over the head of VM ignoring someone paying £18.00 a month and stealing services?
The BB modem cloning is exceptionally widespread - this can be evidenced by ebay and the fact that the suppliers of cloned modems in most major cities throughout the UK are making a handsome profit at doing it. If it's not, as you say, on the scale that I seem to believe then why has it not been nipped in the bud? If it's on a small scale then surely identifying the perpetrators and the associated legal costs in respect of prosecutions to send out a message to the masses would be money well spent.
Again I would reiterate that I can find no reference to prosecutions (successful or otherwise). To use your own logic - just because there are no prosecutions does not mean that no one is doing it.
I'm sorry, and I don't mean to sound in any way disrespectful, but it is clear that VM are not interested in stopping fraud if by turning a blind eye to it generates them the slightest bit of revenue.
I've yet to see a tech at the junction box in my street since my original post in this thread.
The BB modem cloning is exceptionally widespread - this can be evidenced by ebay and the fact that the suppliers of cloned modems in most major cities throughout the UK are making a handsome profit at doing it. If it's not, as you say, on the scale that I seem to believe then why has it not been nipped in the bud? If it's on a small scale then surely identifying the perpetrators and the associated legal costs in respect of prosecutions to send out a message to the masses would be money well spent.
Head buried in the sand is how i personally see it. :(
I fully agree with you and unfortunately cannot say much more on here because Virgin don't like the truth and i would end up on a verbal.
WHISTLED
10-07-2007, 21:04
This is fair comment however, knowing what I do of such activities on the part of several now ex NTL techs based in Belfast I can tell you that whilst NTL sacked the individuals employed they did and continue to do absolutely nothing about the several hundred customers who continue to avail of free services as a result of the illegal sales of doctored boxes by the techs in question
Assuming that you dont know each of these several hundred customers personally isnt ot possible that at some point many have had their services stopped only to go out and get a new cloned modem.
If I was a 'customer' with such equipment that suddenly stopped working I wouldnt phone CS to report a fault (although I have listened to several such calls many years ago) i would just start from scratch. Which is exactly what is known to happen.
Although Im not saying this is the case you can see that thre would be an element of chasing tails???!!! Perhaps more important to go after the suppliers of the equipment, which involves building complicated investigation packs for the police and once arrests are made to provide evidentiary packs for legal action.
What degree of mathematical ability would it take to weigh up the perceived loss of revenue in a scenario where, say for example, someone like me paying £37.00 a month would consider leaving over the head of VM ignoring someone paying £18.00 a month and stealing services
Although I can see where your coming from this isnt a business argument and as I think someone else said, the cloned modems are not solely or even mainly responsible for the traffic shaping etc.
The BB modem cloning is exceptionally widespread - this can be evidenced by ebay and the fact that the suppliers of cloned modems in most major cities throughout the UK are making a handsome profit at doing it. If it's not, as you say, on the scale that I seem to believe then why has it not been nipped in the bud?
This is more a case of what you consider to be widespread - we have 5 million customers (although not all BBAND obviously) the cloned modems in comparison really is very small. I am in Mnchester I have lots of mates into all sorts and dont know 1 person with a cloned modem, I have met a few with bent TV although again not as many as when we were analogue.
Again I would reiterate that I can find no reference to prosecutions (successful or otherwise). To use your own logic - just because there are no prosecutions does not mean that no one is doing it
Im not really sure what you mean here but as I said I know of the work that goes on daily preparing for such prosecutions - I had a meeting with cancelled for just this reason. Do consider resource also!
I've yet to see a tech at the junction box in my street since my original post in this thread. Nor will you
If NTL collected the modem when a contract was done, wouldn't that make a difference? Or could any modem be doctored? You don't have to reply to the last part.:)
There are several on Ebay:
Ntl modem.. used, but in good condition.
My friend bought it in error for £45.
He meant to buy a different type of modem, but bought this one, which he has no use for, so he gave it to me to sell.
I've tried it and it works.
likely story!
Well it looks like I spoke a little hastily, after some research its plain to see how widespread this problem really is so apologies to MrAngry.
Thankfully this problem hasnt effected me (yet)
Well it looks like I spoke a little hastily, after some research its plain to see how widespread this problem really is so apologies to MrAngry.
Thankfully this problem hasnt effected me (yet)
Its a problem certainly, but how wide do you think it is against the VM cable modem customer base?
---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------
This is a forum not a comedy show :rolleyes:
To Add my bit on this.
It would only take a look around the pubs on a Friday and Saturday night
It would only take a look at the computer fairs
It would only take a look at the car boot sales on a Sunday
It would only take a look at Ebay
To make the extent of this crime so evident to those that need to deal with it
Fair point Bill, but you're assuming that the pubs, clubs, Fair and Ebay modems will actually work.
Many are the result of a non collection policy, and may not have been altered to work on the VM network. I would also add that there must be somebody who owns this problem working for VM, and given the use of the term "investigation packs" by another poster on this thread in relation to the problem leads me to believe it is something VM are looking at, proactively.
As you say though, A quick look around Ebay does give obe impression of the problem, and that impression is not good.
WHISTLED
10-07-2007, 22:00
Its a problem certainly, but how wide do you think it is against the VM cable modem customer base?
Exactly my point less than .0001% I suspect
Its a problem certainly, but how wide do you think it is against the VM cable modem customer base?
Thats a very good question, I would think that the majority of VM customers wouldnt want to take the risk and break the law, I certainly wouldnt.
But what happens when people cancel and the feed/cable is still active, these people can just buy one and then plug in and off they go? its that easy is it? liked the D2 boxes people buy to obtain tv illegally.
Anyway i think i better refrain from discussing this subject too much as it gives people pointers that they didnt previously have and puts ideas in their heads :D
Mr Angry
10-07-2007, 22:02
Well it looks like I spoke a little hastily, after some research its plain to see how widespread this problem really is so apologies to MrAngry.
Thankfully this problem hasnt effected me (yet)
Hey Rik, No need to apologize - I assure you. It's a pity though that the boffins at VM can't take the time to conduct similar research and actually do something about it.;)
As for the other points raised above I'll respond later (in an incredibly intoxicated state as those that know me will know that the Angrys have reason to celebrate ce soir).
JASYMORRI
10-07-2007, 22:04
I'm in Belfast and paying for the so called 20 meg service, does make me a tad miffed to say the least that someone could be using my MAC address or whatever got on a search. Surely cloned modems has a big effect on overall service to customers by straining the system?
And I find it hard to believe people on here don't know of anyone using one or a friend of a friend that can do the modems. If that is truly the case I think some people would get a shock. It is pretty widespread and they are fairly easy to obtain
Mr Angry
11-07-2007, 01:45
Cloned modems, as has been evidenced in this thread by those well placed to comment on the fact from a technical perspective along with those from a consumer perspective, are readily availible in abundance.
Nobody seems capable of finding any reference, whatsoever, to a successful prosecution in respect of the supply or use of same. Yet several people know that within minutes they can locate / source a cloned modemn for use from any number of sources.
VM, despite the above information, would have its consumers believe that this is not a problem and individuals have offered assurances that they (VM) are, contrary to the evidence at hand, proactive in addressing this issue.
Last month VM increased the monthly cost of my broadband service tier by £2.00 whilst simultaneously introducing Traffic Management because, remarkably, they have managed to identify (in house, no less) a naughty "5%" of users who "abuse" the service by downloading excessive amounts of data in a given time frame.
Now, rather than issuing that "5%" with an AUP breech notice with a further notice of intent to disconnect their service in the event of continued breeches (which they are entitled to do under the T&C's) they elected to collectively punish the 95% of customers by imposing hitherto unpublished limits.
This in itself speaks volumes.
Personally I am not in the habit of downloading any such volumes of data however VM feel entirely justified in citing a breech of the AUP should they identify me (by MAC or IP address) as having done so.
Strangely, despite their wonderful technology which was capable of identifying an errant 5% of users, they can offer me no assurance whatsoever that there is no duplication of my MAC address currently registered on their system nor are they prepared to state or evidence that they are taking, or have in place, the methodology, technology or wherewithall to do so.
Instead I am expected to take their word, based on information supposedly gleaned from the self same software, that I (and solely I) have broken their AUP and they will automate an enforced restriction - without proof or cross reference - on my services with no means of recourse and no available means of appeal regarding any such restriction.
This is tantamount to wilful neglect and exploitation.
Consider this: What happens if, unbeknownst to you, your modem has been cloned and, due to the illegal activities of a third party, you receive a Cease and Desist from the BPI for copyright infringement? Worse still. what happens if the third party happens to have been downloading child porn and you get a knock on the door from plod?
VM have a legal obligation as an ISP to keep records of all traffic and customer usage which they must readily make available to the police in the event that they are required to do so. Quite why they employ several thousand individuals and various software programmes that are incapable of identifying, nullifying and, where approporiate, prosecuting duplicate simultaneous usages of a MAC address is beyond me.
If your use of the services supplied by VM is entirely legal and proper then you have a right to be protected from any such allegations and accusations and, from what I can see on this thread, VM have no intention whatsoever to afford you that right because they'd rather turn a quick buck by turning a blind eye to activities that not only penalize but also compromise their legitimate paying customers.
Even with an IP, VM's logs would provide a trackback to where the modem was used at the time of the alleged offences.
It would not be to the real location of that IP, thus they would have a hard time proving guilt.
It's a similar story were your wireless connection to be used without your knowledge by a neighbour/ mobile user.
Consider this: What happens if, unbeknownst to you, your modem has been cloned and, due to the illegal activities of a third party, you receive a Cease and Desist from the BPI for copyright infringement? Worse still. what happens if the third party happens to have been downloading child porn and you get a knock on the door from plod?
Surely there must be some ability to trace the cloned modem, otherwise the original modem would be recieving the requests of the cloned modem and vice versa?
In other words, even though the modem is cloned, it must still be given a unique identifier either through IP or DNS or whatever technomagical wonders are the keywords of the day, otherwise cloned modems would be useless.
I'm certainly no Cisco or MS certified network engineer, but a basic understanding of a postal code let alone an IP address will tell you that the cloned modem must still have a unique identifier that allows the traffic to flow to the correct modem, even if it is cloned or the poor subscriber who has suffered identity theft.
---------- Post added at 04:48 ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 ----------
Even with an IP, VM's logs would provide a trackback to where the modem was used at the time of the alleged offences.
It would not be to the real location of that IP, thus they would have a hard time proving guilt.
It's a similar story were your wireless connection to be used without your knowledge by a neighbour/ mobile user.
Again, that doesn't add up to me, how can it not be the real location? a cloned MAC does not equal a cloned IP.
UBR 5 at cloud_cuckoo_land has just assigned ip 1.2.3.4 to MAC 00:ff:00:ff:99, aka, the real customer
UBR 7 at never_never_land has just assigned ip 4.3.2.1 to MAC 00:ff:00:ff:99, aka, the cloner. (like a stoner expect cloners want everything for nothing, stoners want nothing to build everything on their own..yeah, anyways.)
Surely a request for google from the customer will be traceable, why not the cloner?, yeah, he has the MAC and config of the clonee, he doesn't share the same IP?
yeah, treading the same ground and all that.
Anyhoo, I have had the opportunity to educate a few people on the differences between a chipped STB and a cloned modem, one affects VM, the other affects everyone.
Trying to get that through to people in this "it's all mine and fark the rest of you" climate of perception is very difficult.
VM, sort it out, you can start very easily by keeping an eye on and shutting down sales on ebay.
How do you know the IP isn't the same?
I don't, as I said, I'm no engineer, nor do I claim to know any answers, it is logic that I am following.
It doesn't matter whether it is MAC, IP, DNS, SWALK or HHGTTG, there must be some form of unique identifier somewhere for the data packets to arrive at the correct modem, whether it be the subscriber or the cloner.
From what i just read, there isn't, and it can cause a problem for the real subscriber.
Actually, come to think of it, I may have been subjected to this by some remote loser.:mad:
It also appears a loophole is allowing this to happen.
I'll say no more, just in case.:erm:
Staff delete if need be :)
So if my modem has been cloned, then every single packet of net traffic I generate is sent to both me and the cloner and likewise for the cloner and I?
So if I DDOS'ed myself I would also flood the cloner?
If I setup an ftp server on my PC the cloner would be hammered with requests for port 2121?
Nah.
Can't see it myself, I'm not saying it isn't so, just that I can't figure it as being true.
they get separate ips and the problem is massive the more subtle thief will trade his mac addy for 1 in another area
JASYMORRI
11-07-2007, 09:13
I've never been able to understand why NTL/Virgin have never been able to crack down on the problem of cloned modems. I'm no techie but surely they can be traced easy enough if time and resources are used. Hence that is probably the issue here.
I do know from conversation from someone that used to have one here in Belfast that cloned modems are common place and that they scan for mac addresses of other modems in different sections of Belfast to their own to enable it to work.
As I've said I am paying good money for a 20 meg service that is up and down all over the place and I aint happy.
Incomplete
11-07-2007, 10:55
I don't, as I said, I'm no engineer, nor do I claim to know any answers, it is logic that I am following.
It doesn't matter whether it is MAC, IP, DNS, SWALK or HHGTTG, there must be some form of unique identifier somewhere for the data packets to arrive at the correct modem, whether it be the subscriber or the cloner.
Networks are segmented.
IDs which are only seen inside the segment only need to be unique within that segment.
Think of it this way... all your Ambit modems have a status page at 192.168.100.1 - how? Easy, that IP address is only visible from your PC, so there's no overlap.
Same with MAC addresses of modems, so long as it's unique on that network segment doesn't matter if it's replicated elsewhere, different IP addresses assigned.
Think about a layered network model, OSI 7 layers and all that and it makes more sense.
---------- Post added at 10:53 ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 ----------
I've never been able to understand why NTL/Virgin have never been able to crack down on the problem of cloned modems. I'm no techie but surely they can be traced easy enough if time and resources are used.
Easy to trace yes, but also painful and very time consuming.
There are far more elegant technical ways of accomplishing it and hopefully that's the route they will take at some point.
---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------
How do you know the IP isn't the same?
Not possible.
Sorry but i have been requested via a phone call this morning not to post anymore in this thread. Go figure as to why :(
Incomplete
11-07-2007, 12:15
Sorry but i have been requested via a phone call this morning not to post anymore in this thread. Go figure as to why :(
Because they're going to implement DOCSIS 1.1 cable modem digital certification along with dynamic TFTP config file generation and interconnection between all regional DHCPs to a centralised database to put a firm halt to these issues of course, so no need for further discussion ;)
I've never been able to understand why NTL/Virgin have never been able to crack down on the problem of cloned modems. I'm no techie but surely they can be traced easy enough if time and resources are used. Hence that is probably the issue here.
VM wouldn't necessarily make a big thing about tracing cloned modems. They certainly wouldn't discuss specifics of how they do it, in case it gave the cloners ideas for ways to bypass.
Doesn't mean they don't trace them though. Similar to our situation as mods here. If we see that someone has broken the rules, we do act, but don't generally make a big thing about it.
The problem that Virgin has is that whatever methods they put in place to prevent people obtaining service illegally (be it broadband or DTV), some people will find a way around it.
Mr Angry
11-07-2007, 12:50
VM wouldn't necessarily make a big thing about tracing cloned modems. They certainly wouldn't discuss specifics of how they do it, in case it gave the cloners ideas for ways to bypass.
Doesn't mean they don't trace them though. Similar to our situation as mods here. If we see that someone has broken the rules, we do act, but don't generally make a big thing about it.
The problem that Virgin has is that whatever methods they put in place to prevent people obtaining service illegally (be it broadband or DTV), some people will find a way around it.
Stuart, with all due respect, there is no need for VM to make a big thing about tracing cloned modems - just one instance of someone being prosecuted for either providing them or using them for theft of service would send a very clear message to cloners and those using them and to the paying customers that they are doing something about it and not just taking paying customers for a ride.
I can find nothing by way of a media report and not one instance from national court listings of anyone ever having been prosecuted for this. For the record I'm not remotely interested in the semantics of how they do / propose to do it - what I want to know is what they are doing and, to date, that seems to be nothing.
It's all very well people citing ownership of the problem and the compiling of evidence packs but these are (if indeed they exist), again with all due respect, as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
What is stopping VM from contacting Trading Standards and working with them to visit car boot sales across Britain?
Why have they not taken action against ebay?
Why do they not employ a field team to make purchases from illegal suppliers and then prosecute? After all, they're quick enough to engage the heavies at Moorcroft over a few miserable pounds of monies outstanding.
These are straightforward questions and the "answers" lie in these pages.
Until such time as they are visibly seen to be proactive I think it's pretty safe to assume that they really just "couldn't be bothered" as long as they're making money somewhere - from somebody.
I find it remarkably interesting that someone, assumingly from VM, can take the time to call someone and ask them not to post on this thread - yet can't move themselves to respond in an official capacity to the core question.
There's an irony in them charging people £5.00 for paying for their services by methods other than direct debit or £10.00 for a late payment fee when they are apparently turning a blind eye to theft of their service.
Again, that speaks volumes.
tweetypie/8
11-07-2007, 13:36
I'd really like someone at VM to afford me and other legal paying customers something by way of an assurance that something is being done about cloned modems.
All too often I have seen posters on CF berating others / moaning about "having to subsidise" customers who have, legitimately, negotiated deals with retentions. The fact of the matter is that there are people out there stealing services who you are having to subsidise and VM seem, to all intents and purposes, indifferent to the fact.
I have not, as far as I can ascertain, been subjected to the recently introduced traffic management - nor do I ever anticipate a scenario whereby I would be in a position to have exceeded the "unlimited" limits. I have recently had a VM tech at my address to remedy what can only be described as exceptionally poor connection speeds which he himself attributed to network problems and the number of cloned modems on the network.
Now, I don't want this being dismissed or treated as another "Traffic shaping thread" or another "Poor connection speeds" thread. The question is very specific and pertinent - what are VM doing about this issue?
If there are two instances of a MAC address on the network then there is obviously a very real possibility that something illegal is going on and the legal customer stands a very real chance of being penalized for something entirely beyond their control. Why do VM not simply disable the MAC address and await the legitimate account holder to contact them?
I, for one, would like VM to show / prove that they are being proactive in this regard and not simply taking me and my £37.00 per month as a given. To that end I would invite them to send an engineer / tech to my street to identify any cloned modems in that vicinity. My street postal code is BT17 0SY (Belfast) and there is only one junction box that I am aware of.
If my modem has been cloned I have no issue with the loss of service until I phone and identify myself as the true account holder (it would be really nice if VM set up a freephone number for this purpose) as that way I can be relatively assured that I am not being taken for a ride and fobbed of with quasi tech speak excuses from a company who cannot address fraud when it is staring them in the face - but would rather adopt an ostrich approach.
If you're aware of or suspect that your service is being restricted as a result of cloned modems in your area then why not post your postcode in this thread and help VM address this problem if they are actually interested in doing so.
good post angry :tu: hope someone on the forum comes up with good recommendations :idea:
Last month VM increased the monthly cost of my broadband service tier by £2.00 whilst simultaneously introducing Traffic Management because, remarkably, they have managed to identify (in house, no less) a naughty "5%" of users who "abuse" the service by downloading excessive amounts of data in a given time frame.
Now, rather than issuing that "5%" with an AUP breech notice with a further notice of intent to disconnect their service in the event of continued breeches (which they are entitled to do under the T&C's) they elected to collectively punish the 95% of customers by imposing hitherto unpublished limits.
This in itself speaks volumes.
that they want to keep an unlimited service? that they don't want to kick people off for going over a non-existant limit? the 95% of users shouldn't be punished if the limit for the STM was done right so that argument is null and void.
Strangely, despite their wonderful technology which was capable of identifying an errant 5% of users, they can offer me no assurance whatsoever that there is no duplication of my MAC address currently registered on their system nor are they prepared to state or evidence that they are taking, or have in place, the methodology, technology or wherewithall to do so.
as others have said, making public how vm track the cloned modems isn't going to happen, standard practice really.
Consider this: What happens if, unbeknownst to you, your modem has been cloned and, due to the illegal activities of a third party, you receive a Cease and Desist from the BPI for copyright infringement? Worse still. what happens if the third party happens to have been downloading child porn and you get a knock on the door from plod?
you do know it works off the IP address? 2 modems can't have the same IP address, thus this argument is again null and void.
VM have a legal obligation as an ISP to keep records of all traffic and customer usage which they must readily make available to the police in the event that they are required to do so. Quite why they employ several thousand individuals and various software programmes that are incapable of identifying, nullifying and, where approporiate, prosecuting duplicate simultaneous usages of a MAC address is beyond me.
same point again, just rewritten, and again, no media coverage doesn't mean its not happening
tbh, you seem to just like taking a small point and blowing it up without any actual facts to back yourself up, do you work for a newspaper by any chance?
Mr Angry
11-07-2007, 14:42
that they want to keep an unlimited service? that they don't want to kick people off for going over a non-existant limit? the 95% of users shouldn't be punished if the limit for the STM was done right so that argument is null and void.
I've no wish for this to degenerate into a TM thread but I'd respond as follows.
They have at their disposal, and within the terms and conditions of service, the means and rights to terminate their service. The fact that they don't and instead implement TM across the board causing ongoing underperformance and glitches nationwide suggests, clearly, that network performance is not their priority - money (from whatever means and at whatever cost to paying subscribers) obviously is.
They have proved, beyond any reasonable doubt, that doing, managing or effectively monoitoring "the limit for the STM" and affecting those offenders only - is quite clearly beyond their capability.
as others have said, making public how vm track the cloned modems isn't going to happen, standard practice really.
And as I stated previously, I'm not interested in the semantics of "how" I'm interested in knowing "if".
2 modems can't have the same IP address, thus this argument is again null and void.
I'm not a technical expert but I very much doubt that any such blanket assertion is correct. If you want to get into a technical argument then feel free to go and find someone to entertain you (I suggest you research the two modem one IP scenario on a reputable search engine first though), I'm posting this question from a customer perspective - the technicalities are of no interest to me whatsoever - the VM tolerance for theft of their service is.
same point again, just rewritten, and again, no media coverage doesn't mean its not happening
As above.
tbh, you seem to just like taking a small point and blowing it up without any actual facts to back yourself up,
The facts are here in this thread. No available evidence of anyone ever being prosecuted and plenty of posters confirming the scale and availability of the problem. Draw your own conclusions.
do you work for a newspaper by any chance?
No.
NTLVictim
11-07-2007, 15:40
Sorry but i have been requested via a phone call this morning not to post anymore in this thread. Go figure as to why :(
Which means they are reading this....right!:p:
As a VM customer , may I say..NTL management, the people on here that still miraculously work for you are HEROES of the first order. Not only do they have to contend with the mess you have made during working hours, OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF THEIR HEARTS they also appear on here, and help people out of a hole without recompense, or expected praise, to repair the actions dealt out to people by their idiot employers.(That's you, you dipsticks.)
And for this...they get verbal warnings????
I'm a VM customer. Management? you suck. You suck more than a hard vacuum, and no, I don't mean a Dyson, you peasants. Want to give me a verbal warning? If it wasn't for the VM bods on here, you would be even further down a certain creek without a propulsion device, VM should sack all of you and put the bods on here in your places.
After the treatment WE got from NTL/VM admin (same ****, different day) I can honestly say I would trust the management of that company about as far as I could hurl a grand piano into the teeth of a force ten gale, and I urge all their employees to do the same.
Well, that was rather restrained..:D
..for me...
Which means they are reading this....right!:p:
As a VM customer , may I say..NTL management, the people on here that still miraculously work for you are HEROES of the first order. Not only do they have to contend with the mess you have made during working hours, OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF THEIR HEARTS they also appear on here, and help people out of a hole without recompense, or expected praise, to repair the actions dealt out to people by their idiot employers.
I'll support that unreservedly.:tu: Maintaining an objective view must be a frustration, to put it mildly.
I see my "theory" on how this could actually work has been confirmed.
Ok, this problem wouldn't exist if no wired connection was available.
So as VM employees go about their jobs connecting people up, what's to stop them cutting any non live feeds close to the ground? The idea being that only a person who wanted to steal the services would reconnect it, right? The odd visit to peruse a box as the van passed wouldn't be that big a deal.
Yes, it would be a bit of a bind when the connection was really needed, but the end justifies the means here, surely.
Would that be a feasible short term solution? It is certain to earmark the perpetrators at least.
WHISTLED
15-07-2007, 01:13
Sorry but i have been requested via a phone call this morning not to post anymore in this thread. Go figure as to why
I believe this to be complete rubbish unfortunately - The internal internet is not monitored in this way on either the xtw or xntl platforms.
Its not that kind of work place!
I believe this to be complete rubbish unfortunately
I don't.
I believe this to be complete rubbish unfortunately - The internal internet is not monitored in this way on either the xtw or xntl platforms.
Its not that kind of work place!
I do believe it. It's not the first time I have heard this. I know of at least one member who left because they were asked to by their line-management.
It's also possible that whoever had a word with Bill just looks at the site in an unofficial capacity.
[QUOTE=WHISTLED;34350966]I believe this to be complete rubbish unfortunately - The internal internet is not monitored in this way on either the xtw or xntl platforms.
Its not that kind of work place![/QUOT
i had a phone call about comments in the old tech thread so i know it to be true and the "internal" intranet is heavily monitored with software and people
"looking"
which i must say i actually agree with if your working you should not be surfing
Sorry WHISTLED, that is simply not true.
A friend of mine in the Swansea technical support place quoted an Internal Intranet article reminding people that posting company sensitive information on Newsgroups and Forums can lead to discipline procedures.
I believe this to be complete rubbish unfortunately - The internal internet is not monitored in this way on either the xtw or xntl platforms.
Its not that kind of work place!
So i take it you are calling me a liar are you ?
To quote your rep
Poor employees often blame the Management - I have my doubts about much of your content and therefore if you still work for VMI don't care who you are But never ever call me a liar. You seem to want to discredit me i wonder why.
Do you work in Manchester by any chance?
Then people wonder why i am so worried about posting anything on this site at the moment.
Mr Angry
15-07-2007, 12:22
I know of one NTL staffer who used to frequent these boards who was dismissed for posting on here.
VM management, bless 'em, seem quite prepared to police their staff's internet activities with an almost naziesque zeal whilst all the while turning a blind eye to an issue which is crippling their network.
Go! VM.
Surely the can send a code to the cloned modem to destroy the firmeware making it unuseable.
I know this can be done to the Blackberry phones
Its not that kind of work place!
It was when I worked there. For a while if I posted anything during working hours or helped someone who had a problem it had to be checked by my line manager before it was posted. A few people I worked with at the time stopped posting then for similar reasons.
WHISTLED
16-07-2007, 14:34
It's also possible that whoever had a word with Bill just looks at the site in an unofficial capacity.
Agreed/accepted and very likely as its not difficult to figure out who Bill is is and it seems he has been spoken to about this before based upon the 'disclaimer' note.
i had a phone call about comments in the old tech thread so i know it to be true and the "internal" intranet is heavily monitored with software and people "looking"[QUOTE]
Yes its monitred of course. Mostly after the fact, we have software to prevent access to dodgy sites (to some extent) so we dont pay a FT team to sit and watch what people are doing.
There will be cases when this is required and can be specifically requested by Management but these requests would need serious support! Statistics can also be requested to show levels of usage etc. None of this is VM specific.
[QUOTE]Sorry WHISTLED, that is simply not true.
A friend of mine in the Swansea technical support place quoted an Internal Intranet article reminding people that posting company sensitive information on Newsgroups and Forums can lead to discipline procedures
Not quite the same thing is it and if staff were doing so their feet shouldnt touch the ground. I did actually sot someone pasting a link for an intranet article a few weeks ago.
Additionally its a standard notice in any business it ammounts to sharing sensitive information with our competitors.
So i take it you are calling me a liar are you ?
Take it as you like Bill - I do believe Stuarts suggestion is very likely and therefore I accept the correction. However thats not the message you were trying to put across.
I don't care who you are But never ever call me a liar. You seem to want to discredit me i wonder why.
I dont want to do anything, its a forum and your entitled to express your views. Equally im entitled to correct them as appropriate.
I find it annoying when colleagues try to discredit the business but I accept its usually based on their own experiences which may not be positive ones. Their views are further blinkered by extremely limited exposure to the wider business.
Do you work in Manchester by any chance?
Yes sometimes.
Then people wonder why i am so worried about posting anything on this site at the moment.
There you go again... Why would my comments worry you?
I know of one NTL staffer who used to frequent these boards who was dismissed for posting on here.
Bet they got a fortune for that!! Unfair dismissal!! What infrmation you dont have is the content of those posts and/or the frequency impacting the colleagues performance
It was when I worked there. For a while if I posted anything during working hours or helped someone who had a problem it had to be checked by my line manager before it was posted. A few people I worked with at the time stopped posting then for similar reasons.
Quite different from remotely monitoring your activity though isnt it. Amost certainly because a colleague such as the one mentioned above ruined it for everyone.
SNIP
One of the reason i am worried is the atmosphere that now exists within the Happy Virgin Family :rolleyes:.
The atmosphere at work is the worst i have experienced in the whole time i have worked for them from the Nynex days through to now with Virgin.
papa smurf
16-07-2007, 19:39
i agree with that bill ...we networks wallers get out of the building as quick as poss before the depression sets in ,atmosphere sucks
i agree with that bill ...we networks wallers get out of the building as quick as poss before the depression sets in ,atmosphere sucks
I think Virgin must have some of these
In the fictional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction) Harry Potter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter) books, a Dementor is a soul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul)-sucking fiend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementor
papa smurf
16-07-2007, 19:50
I think Virgin must have some of these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementor
yea there was a thread about em but the captain complained so we cant discuss it any more;)
Mr Angry
16-07-2007, 20:02
Bet they got a fortune for that!! Unfair dismissal!! What infrmation you dont have is the content of those posts and/or the frequency impacting the colleagues performance
They got nothing for it because they elected not to claim for unfair dismissal. As a matter of fact I am aware of the content of the posts and the the frequency of same.
Impact on colleagues performance was not cited as a factor - nor could it be given the ready accessibility of this forum and the expression of opinions hereon.
Have a nice day.
They got nothing for it because they elected not to claim for unfair dismissal. As a matter of fact I am aware of the content of the posts and the the frequency of same.
Impact on colleagues performance was not cited as a factor - nor could it be given the ready accessibility of this forum and the expression of opinions hereon.
Have a nice day.
:tu: Mr A
why do i think a certain poster is here to
A. Wind up the staff
B. Issuing of Misinformation ?
C. Change the direction of a thread when needed ?
papa smurf
16-07-2007, 21:26
:tu: Mr A
why do i think a certain poster is here to
A. Wind up the staff
B. Issuing of Misinformation ?
C. Change the direction of a thread when needed ?
he's no plant bill ,he's a fantasist just wants to sound important:zzz::zzz::zzz:
C. Change the direction of a thread when needed ?
Yes its plain to see that whistled seems to be trying to divert attention from the original subject of this thread and sound like hes Richard Bransons best friend :D
Bill dont let them grind you down!! ;) :tu:
One of the reason i am worried is the atmosphere that now exists within the Happy Virgin Family :rolleyes:.
The atmosphere at work is the worst i have experienced in the whole time i have worked for them from the Nynex days through to now with Virgin.
That now exists? Was worse under NTL, now we are just in a mess. Well always have been in a mess.
WHISTLED
17-07-2007, 08:56
Agreed off topic so Ill make this my last post on this thread.
If its that bad..... LEAVE.
Whether they actually do anything about cloned modems is probably only something a select few at VM will know (I doubt they do nothing at all). However, I agree with Mr Angry that they certainly don't visibly seem to do much, and that's what bugs customers (inc me).
You mean people are getting broadband for free and here's me paying for it like a sucker!
gaffer_gump
17-07-2007, 10:38
You mean people are getting broadband for free and here's me paying for it like a sucker!
Yup..
maybe we should start a sucker club, infact would it be possible for a mod to set up an anonymous poll to ask the question 'who on here pays full wack for all their VM services' to include retention deals, offers, etc..
Interesting results I would think.. :disturbd:
Yup..
maybe we should start a sucker club, infact would it be possible for a mod to set up an anonymous poll to ask the question 'who on here pays full wack for all their VM services' to include retention deals, offers, etc..
Interesting results I would think.. :disturbd:
You don't need us to set up a poll. Just create a new thread and tick the "poll" option.
gaffer_gump
17-07-2007, 16:30
Cheers Stuart I didn't know we could that :tu:
DUN !!
Unfortunately due to the nature of the billing system or maybe the operators that use/used it, there are plenty of customers getting free broadband due to the customer accounts not being properly closed when they have disconnected there modems and maybe the Digi Tv.
At last something i have personal experience of and virgins fraud department, I had the unfortunate experience of dire connection for weeks due to the local cloner running multiple cloned modems killing my connection. Firstly rang CS who put me through tothe fraud department absolute waste of time, they had the nerve to tell me that cloned modems were a myth and did not exist, not put off i kept ringing every day for weeks, only to be given the same old story no such thing, nothing we can do about it, if it bothers you that much ring the police, if it bothers you that much go and cut his cable yourself in the middle of the night. (I swear all of this is true) Had a call back from a manager after 4 weeks and he told me it is not worth there time and effort to come out and do anything about it. After some advice from some god send of members here i actually paid a passing engineer a few pints to pull the plug on him i was that desperate. Unbeleivably the local cloner after being cut off tried to get into the street cab with a sledge hammer and wrecking bar to reconnect himself, after this failed he actually rang NTL to ask about being reconnected and they told him that he had been reported to them not only that but who had reported him (ME!) and then said if you pay us £!00 pound deposit we will reconnect you. Unsodding beleivable.
on in an hour!
17-07-2007, 19:46
At last something i have personal experience of and virgins fraud department, I had the unfortunate experience of dire connection for weeks due to the local cloner running multiple cloned modems killing my connection. Firstly rang CS who put me through tothe fraud department absolute waste of time, they had the nerve to tell me that cloned modems were a myth and did not exist, not put off i kept ringing every day for weeks, only to be given the same old story no such thing, nothing we can do about it, if it bothers you that much ring the police, if it bothers you that much go and cut his cable yourself in the middle of the night. (I swear all of this is true) Had a call back from a manager after 4 weeks and he told me it is not worth there time and effort to come out and do anything about it. After some advice from some god send of members here i actually paid a passing engineer a few pints to pull the plug on him i was that desperate. Unbeleivably the local cloner after being cut off tried to get into the street cab with a sledge hammer and wrecking bar to reconnect himself, after this failed he actually rang NTL to ask about being reconnected and they told him that he had been reported to them not only that but who had reported him (ME!) and then said if you pay us £!00 pound deposit we will reconnect you. Unsodding beleivable.
OMG :Yikes: this beggars bloody belief!!!
And it is all true beleive me it was a sodding nightmare to sort out and if it hadnt been for unsaid members here i have no doubt it would still be going on...
Agreed off topic so Ill make this my last post on this thread.
If its that bad..... LEAVE.
I am. 30 days issued.
---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------
At last something i have personal experience of and virgins fraud department, I had the unfortunate experience of dire connection for weeks due to the local cloner running multiple cloned modems killing my connection. Firstly rang CS who put me through tothe fraud department absolute waste of time, they had the nerve to tell me that cloned modems were a myth and did not exist, not put off i kept ringing every day for weeks, only to be given the same old story no such thing, nothing we can do about it, if it bothers you that much ring the police, if it bothers you that much go and cut his cable yourself in the middle of the night. (I swear all of this is true) Had a call back from a manager after 4 weeks and he told me it is not worth there time and effort to come out and do anything about it. After some advice from some god send of members here i actually paid a passing engineer a few pints to pull the plug on him i was that desperate. Unbeleivably the local cloner after being cut off tried to get into the street cab with a sledge hammer and wrecking bar to reconnect himself, after this failed he actually rang NTL to ask about being reconnected and they told him that he had been reported to them not only that but who had reported him (ME!) and then said if you pay us £!00 pound deposit we will reconnect you. Unsodding beleivable.
Unlike a certain member of this forum i believe you.
I am. 30 days issued.
---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------
Unlike a certain member of this forum i believe you.
Cheers bill it is absolutely the truth but all sorted now and has been for weeks hopefully never to return, thing being cloner advertises in the local rag i forwarded that to there fraud department all to no avail....
Yes its plain to see that whistled seems to be trying to divert attention from the original subject of this thread and sound like hes Richard Bransons best friend :D
Bill dont let them grind you down!! ;) :tu:
I would just like to apologise for my FOUL language in this post, there was absolutely no need for it and I was right to receive a warning for the naughty word, but I still love Bill C :)
WHISTLED
17-07-2007, 20:42
i forwarded that to there fraud department all to no avail.... Any chance I can have it or was it hard copy?
I am. 30 days issued. I didnt mean the service - i wouldnt tell someone experiencing problems to discon.
Mr Angry
17-07-2007, 20:47
Doofy,
Thanks for your post - I think I recall you posting about this some time ago. I have to say I have no problem whatsoever in believing what you have said to be true.
Like Bill I have contacted VM about my 30 day notice - for all services - and I pointed out that the principal reasons for my decision were saturation and underperformance of the network due, in part, to the use of illegal / cloned modems.
They didn't bat an eyelid.
Any chance I can have it or was it hard copy?
I didnt mean the service - i wouldnt tell someone experiencing problems to discon.
what other option do i have.
I will not pay for a crap service no matter how cheap i get it.
My TV is Fine
My Phone is fine
My broadband is steam powered crap.
As for the job. I am looking elsewhere
---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------
Doofy,
Like Bill I have contacted VM about my 30 day notice - for all services - and I pointed out that the principal reasons for my decision were saturation and underperformance of the network due, in part, to the use of illegal / cloned modems.
They didn't bat an eyelid.
Hey you must have had the same retentions person as me :LOL:
They just sounded resigned to the fact of another ****ed off broadband customer
I had the off net ADSL service from Virgin for a month, i was back with my previous ISP the next month paying £13.00 more,(i went on the staff off net for £12.49) as the service was beyond a joke.
I don't mind paying for something that works.
At last something i have personal experience of and virgins fraud department, I had the unfortunate experience of dire connection for weeks due to the local cloner running multiple cloned modems killing my connection. Firstly rang CS who put me through tothe fraud department absolute waste of time, they had the nerve to tell me that cloned modems were a myth and did not exist, not put off i kept ringing every day for weeks, only to be given the same old story no such thing, nothing we can do about it, if it bothers you that much ring the police, if it bothers you that much go and cut his cable yourself in the middle of the night. (I swear all of this is true) Had a call back from a manager after 4 weeks and he told me it is not worth there time and effort to come out and do anything about it. After some advice from some god send of members here i actually paid a passing engineer a few pints to pull the plug on him i was that desperate. Unbeleivably the local cloner after being cut off tried to get into the street cab with a sledge hammer and wrecking bar to reconnect himself, after this failed he actually rang NTL to ask about being reconnected and they told him that he had been reported to them not only that but who had reported him (ME!) and then said if you pay us £!00 pound deposit we will reconnect you. Unsodding beleivable.
No point me doing anything about all the cloned modems & dodgy STB`s that get used round these parts then i take it:rolleyes:
I would`nt be suprised if there were more people using dodgy equiptment than what there are legite users where we are down here in London.
I also have a friend who lives in my house back in Edinburgh for me and he too was offered dodgy TV & bb for next to nothing a few weeks ago,at the door......it`s very common it seems, regardless of where you are.
Getting "connected" is probably quicker & easier to have done illegally than what calling VM themselves is.
Thats no joke either.
If a list of modems for sale were drawn up, from a high profile site like Ebay, where boxed 255s are on auction. Nothing would be done?
If a list of modems for sale were drawn up, from a high profile site like Ebay, where boxed 255s are on auction. Nothing would be done?
Like what?
Mr Angry
18-07-2007, 07:37
Like what?
Like, Oh I don't know, seeing if VM were interested enough in reporting them to ebay?
Is there any way you could find out if there's a cloned modem running in your area? like any software or anything? at times my connection is very slow, and i havent been downloading anything that day, so its not like i would have been traffic shaped. I'm all for VM to pull there finger out and do something about these cloners, if nothing else, if i have to pay, so should they :mad:
Like, Oh I don't know, seeing if VM were interested enough in reporting them to ebay?
Precisely. I allmost did just that myself.
Since these are a modded Ambit, How much would one cost?
You can't tell chamoan AFAIK. Mine was continuously rebooting for quite a while some time back, which could suggest my mac address was stolen.
NTLVictim
18-07-2007, 09:30
...after this failed he actually rang NTL to ask about being reconnected and they told him that he had been reported to them not only that but who had reported him (ME!) ..
Get a lawyer Doofy, it's payday.
NTL just broke the Data Protection Act, and probably a good few other laws besides.
It means you have a good chance of receiving money for your trouble and the fact that your name was given to what is obviously a dodgy character, and with any luck it will get the **** fired so they won't be able to put anyone else in jeopardy in the future.
Like, Oh I don't know, seeing if VM were interested enough in reporting them to ebay?
Well good luck with that.
Ebay do have agreements with major companies to remove articles on sale that they feel should not be, but it is down to the company to request the removal, ebay do not have to monitor it.
Here you go for taking the p**s i forwared this link to there fraud department and was told by them that they were not realk and did not work.... appologies for the link if it aint ok remove it... Oh and i tried reporting it to that site no reply and they are still at it..Intelligence even puts his phone number on there last one on that page. beggars belief it really does...
http://www11.xpresssites.com/northcliffe/marketplace/s4s/search_results.jsp?_RND=570344036
Here you go for taking the p**s i forwared this link to there fraud department and was told by them that they were not realk and did not work.... appologies for the link if it aint ok remove it... Oh and i tried reporting it to that site no reply and they are still at it..Intelligence even puts his phone number on there last one on that page. beggars belief it really does...
http://www11.xpresssites.com/northcliffe/marketplace/s4s/search_results.jsp?_RND=570344036
And the reply from fraud will be.
There are no Americans anywhere in Iraq
Sorry wrong news broadcast.
There are no cloned modems we have destroyed all cloned modems. Our imperial forces have slaughtered them at the airport and sent them packing back to Virgin.
Sorry got carried away there :LOL:
NTLVictim
18-07-2007, 18:49
The western bully boys will have their IP addresses robustly fondled, and the secret police will shout at their slippers....Sorry, loses something in translation..
virgin media are too busy crucifying your service to care about cloned modems.
Mr Angry
18-07-2007, 18:52
Well good luck with that.
Ebay do have agreements with major companies to remove articles on sale that they feel should not be, but it is down to the company to request the removal, ebay do not have to monitor it.
Perhaps if you reread my post you'd spot the bit where I said "seeing if VM were interested enough in reporting them to ebay?"
And the reply from fraud will be.
There are no Americans anywhere in Iraq
Sorry wrong news broadcast.
There are no cloned modems we have destroyed all cloned modems. Our imperial forces have slaughtered them at the airport and sent them packing back to Virgin.
Sorry got carried away there :LOL:
:LOL::LOL::LOL:
And the reply from fraud will be.
There are no Americans anywhere in Iraq
Sorry wrong news broadcast.
There are no cloned modems we have destroyed all cloned modems. Our imperial forces have slaughtered them at the airport and sent them packing back to Virgin.
Sorry got carried away there :LOL:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
And the reply from fraud will be.
There are no Americans anywhere in Iraq
Sorry wrong news broadcast.
There are no cloned modems we have destroyed all cloned modems. Our imperial forces have slaughtered them at the airport and sent them packing back to Virgin.
Sorry got carried away there :LOL:
Is there any way you could find out if there's a cloned modem running in your area? like any software or anything? at times my connection is very slow, and i havent been downloading anything that day, so its not like i would have been traffic shaped. I'm all for VM to pull there finger out and do something about these cloners, if nothing else, if i have to pay, so should they :mad:
My understanding is that the cloned modem has to be in a different area. So Doofy's story puzzles me. Two cloned modems on the same UBR should be impossible. Am I wrong?
Yes, the sniffer software exists and that's what the cloners use.
Well good luck with that.
Ebay do have agreements with major companies to remove articles on sale that they feel should not be, but it is down to the company to request the removal, ebay do not have to monitor it.
Well maybe I'll do it for 'em. Ebay would have to act, seeing as the items being auctioned are stolen.
---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:39 ---------
My understanding is that the cloned modem has to be in a different area. So Doofy's story puzzles me. Two cloned modems on the same UBR should be impossible. Am I wrong?
But not mac addresses from different ubrs as far as i understand it, all i know is it is a bigger problem than VM would care to admit
Well maybe I'll do it for 'em. Ebay would have to act, seeing as the items being auctioned are stolen.
You can't, take down notice requests have to come from the company who claim ownership of the products, I can't remember the name of the agreement off hand, I'll see if I can find it.
By all means give it a go though, if you can find out how.
WHISTLED
19-07-2007, 14:14
You can't, take down notice requests have to come from the company who claim ownership of the products, I can't remember the name of the agreement off hand, I'll see if I can find it.
We have a relationship with ebay which is why you dont see our STB's on ebay (for long) so I dont know why not SACM's either...?
NTLVictim
19-07-2007, 14:51
We have a relationship with ebay which is why you dont see our STB's on ebay (for long) so I dont know why not SACM's either...?
Arent SACM's the bigger threat???:shocked:
The agreement that copyright holders have with Ebay is called VERO (http://ads.auctionads.com/pagead/link_98f741b145ca499f3e6a_c3565e061a9245d0293e60ea 53925280_http://pages.ebay.co.uk/vero/notice.html), in that ebay will do all it can to protect the rights of copyright owners. Which in reality means that the company with the VERO agreement with ebay has a tool to request removal of items it feels breach its rights.
All ebay do is remove the item from sale, they do not pass details to the VERO agreement holder who the person is.
So VM would have to daily search for items using a number of different key words in order to find items it owns on sale.
LOL, passing the buck or what?
NTLVictim
19-07-2007, 15:21
So VM would have to daily search for items using a number of different key words in order to find items it owns on sale.
So, write a script?
So, write a script?
You can easily script for the searches yes, but Ebay insist on a faxed statement, signed and sent on a non geo number, listing each item you wish to remove. You only have space for a few items.
Again, I ask, Ebay passing the buck or making a peacemeal offer to prevent them from being sued?
Chrysalis
19-07-2007, 15:46
Ironically I sold my old modem without trouble on ebay but ebay removed my ad for the STB, although selling both was illegal its the modem that could be used for cloning and lose ntl more money.
I agree it is very common practice cloning and it amazes me nothing has been done about it, I expect its probably because if cloning was killed off it would cost the company more money then it saves, it would probably require new hardware issueing to all paying customers.
We have a relationship with ebay which is why you dont see our STB's on ebay (for long) so I dont know why not SACM's either...?
whatever system you use it dosnt work go to ebay and search for ntl/telewest there are loads of modems/stb/remotes.............
whatever system you use it dosnt work go to ebay and search for ntl/telewest there are loads of modems/stb/remotes.............
Just did that (searched on "ntl/telewest"), and got 99 items...... none of which were dodgy STB's or SACM's.
Link (http://ads.auctionads.com/pagead/link_98f741b145ca499f3e6a_c3565e061a9245d0293e60ea 53925280_http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?satitle=ntl%2Ftelewest&fcl=3&fcol=ship-off&fsop=32&fsoo=1&rpr=1&frpp=150)
Just did that (searched on "ntl/telewest"), and got 99 items...... none of which were dodgy STB's or SACM's.
Link (http://ads.auctionads.com/pagead/link_98f741b145ca499f3e6a_c3565e061a9245d0293e60ea 53925280_http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?satitle=ntl%2Ftelewest&fcl=3&fcol=ship-off&fsop=32&fsoo=1&rpr=1&frpp=150)
Try ntl virgin modem
LINK (http://ads.auctionads.com/pagead/link_98f741b145ca499f3e6a_c3565e061a9245d0293e60ea 53925280_http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=ntl+virgin+modem)
so much for the head in the sand approach
Still reminds me of the Iraqi information minister
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/satellite.html
eBays' Policies
http://search-desc.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&fcl=3&frpp=50&from=R10&satitle=modem+motorola+hacked&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&fts=2&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D3&sadis=200&fpos=Postcode&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ga10244=10425&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search
Quick search for modem motorola hacked yeilds 10 results, though lots of items don't say hacked they only mention firmware/upgrades.
Just did that (searched on "ntl/telewest"), and got 99 items...... none of which were dodgy STB's or SACM's.
Link (http://ads.auctionads.com/pagead/link_98f741b145ca499f3e6a_c3565e061a9245d0293e60ea 53925280_http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?satitle=ntl%2Ftelewest&fcl=3&fcol=ship-off&fsop=32&fsoo=1&rpr=1&frpp=150)
sorry my actual word search was "ntl cable" .........im going to bury my head with bill c !!!
Trouble is the disconnect Tech's will dispose of used SACM into the skip, this i do know don't think Virginmedia or it's predecessors where interested in re-using SACM that are retrieved from customers houses due to the fact they cost so little.
Why they can't be re-used i don't know, maybe there are reasons they don't but if that is the case they should be disposed of in a secure manner.
Mick Fisher
19-07-2007, 19:44
Trouble is the disconnect Tech's will dispose of used SACM into the skip, this i do know don't think Virginmedia or it's predecessors where interested in re-using SACM that are retrieved from customers houses due to the fact they cost so little.
Why they can't be re-used i don't know, maybe there are reasons they don't but if that is the case they should be disposed of in a secure manner.
The elegant solution. :clap:
whatever system you use it dosnt work go to ebay and search for ntl/telewest there are loads of modems/stb/remotes.............
sorry my actual word search was "ntl cable" .........im going to bury my head with bill c !!!
Guys, I'm not burying my head in the sand - I just tried to search on what piggy said, which was "ntl/telewest", and found no dodgy kit. Don't shoot me for following instructions. :(
Now I've searched on "ntl cable", I can see what you mean - wasn't doubting you, just couldn't find it with that search.
kibblerok
19-07-2007, 22:59
search ebays completed listings in advanced search... plenty of stbs and modems moving around
Mr Angry
20-07-2007, 09:21
Dear all,
Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. Those participating and reading can now be in no doubt whatsoever that this problem of cloned mac addresses and flashed modem availability is, irrespective of what VM may or may not be doing, exceptionally widespread.
The fact of the matter is that honest paying customers are being fleeced by a company who cannot even deign to answer a simple question whilst others are availing, at no extra cost, of services beyond their contractual agreement.
VM stated that 5% of users were "abusing" the AUP and cited this as the primary reason for the introduction of the current traffic management system. They further stated the following:
"Here at Virgin Media, we want all our customers to get the best service possible from their broadband. That means speedy downloads for all users – not just a few."
"This ensures that the service doesn't get blocked up with people using more than their fair share – which means a lot fewer traffic jams on the information superhighway."
Rather than get involved in requesting what might be potentially commercially sensitive information regarding what, if any, steps VM are taking to tackle this issue I'd like to cut to the chase.
I'd like to ask one of the site mods or admin to approach their VM contact to ascertain just where the two quotations above fit in with this "head in the sand" attitude towards cloned MAC addresses, flashed modems and theft of service.
It would be interesting to see their reply.
I dont blame people for buying hacked cable modems to use with there vm cable. With people still using crappy ambits 100/120 they have every reason too.
TraxData
20-07-2007, 10:21
I dont blame people for buying hacked cable modems to use with there vm cable. With people still using crappy ambits 100/120 they have every reason too.
Yep. Especially when VM know the user isnt getting the service they are paying for because of the modem and wont replace unless it's broken.
Mind you, since traffic shaping has come into play i know an awful lot of people who have swapped over to cloned modems and change their mac every half hour to get past it.
Mr Angry
23-07-2007, 17:12
VM stated that 5% of users were "abusing" the AUP and cited this as the primary reason for the introduction of the current traffic management system. They further stated the following:
"Here at Virgin Media, we want all our customers to get the best service possible from their broadband. That means speedy downloads for all users – not just a few."
"This ensures that the service doesn't get blocked up with people using more than their fair share – which means a lot fewer traffic jams on the information superhighway."
Rather than get involved in requesting what might be potentially commercially sensitive information regarding what, if any, steps VM are taking to tackle this issue I'd like to cut to the chase.
I'd like to ask one of the site mods or admin to approach their VM contact to ascertain just where the two quotations above fit in with this "head in the sand" attitude towards cloned MAC addresses, flashed modems and theft of service.
It would be interesting to see their reply.
Bump!
Mr Angry
26-07-2007, 16:54
Bump!
Bump again.
The agreement that copyright holders have with Ebay is called VERO (http://ads.auctionads.com/pagead/link_98f741b145ca499f3e6a_c3565e061a9245d0293e60ea 53925280_http://pages.ebay.co.uk/vero/notice.html), in that ebay will do all it can to protect the rights of copyright owners. Which in reality means that the company with the VERO agreement with ebay has a tool to request removal of items it feels breach its rights.
All ebay do is remove the item from sale, they do not pass details to the VERO agreement holder who the person is.
So VM would have to daily search for items using a number of different key words in order to find items it owns on sale.
LOL, passing the buck or what?
VM could jsut buy them and not pay - they get the address to send the cheque to and hay presto. :tu:
What can VM do about it?
These people whom use these "cloned cable modems" have the know how, I don't personally know how It's done. I don't think VM do either? If they did, I'm pretty sure they would put a stop to it, evidently they haven't.
I just did a quick search on eBay,
BRAND NEW IN BOX VirginMedia SPEEDTOUCH 330 ADSL Modem
NTL HOME 200 BROADBAND CABLE MODEM - MUST GO! 99p start
What a joke. :o:
---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------
VM could jsut buy them and not pay - they get the address to send the cheque to and hay presto. :tu:
VirginMedia aren't going to do that are they :angel:
What can VM do about it?
These people whom use these "cloned cable modems" have the know how, I don't personally know how It's done. I don't think VM do either? If they did, I'm pretty sure they would put a stop to it, evidently they haven't.
I just did a quick search on eBay,
BRAND NEW IN BOX VirginMedia SPEEDTOUCH 330 ADSL Modem
NTL HOME 200 BROADBAND CABLE MODEM - MUST GO! 99p start
What a joke. :o:
---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------
VirginMedia aren't going to do that are they :angel:
Why not - they're not breaking the law by biding and then reporting them to the police when they have a legitimate belief that they're being defrauded. :)
VirginMedia making "bids" on eBay, then not paying in order to locate these crooks, I think not.
Yes it's a good idea, but let's be realistic It's not going to happen.
:)
Mr Angry
27-07-2007, 01:21
VirginMedia making "bids" on eBay, then not paying in order to locate these crooks, I think not.
Yes it's a good idea, but let's be realistic It's not going to happen.
:)
So, in the meanwhile customers paying the full amount for an atrocious service which is being openly stolen / defrauded (facts which VM appear uninterested in addressing) are expected to sit back and shell out money hand over fist whilst others clone their mac address, sap their bandwidth and cause them to be traffic shaped?
Sounds like a plan.
VirginMedia making "bids" on eBay, then not paying in order to locate these crooks, I think not.
Yes it's a good idea, but let's be realistic It's not going to happen.
:)
I can't honestly see what the issue is. It'd take one member of staff a couple of hours a day. Once they have the name and address they can go and disconnect the property from the street cab and block the address ever having service again. That coupled with a letter telling them why they've been disconnected may just be enough to make them stop.
mrmistoffelees
27-07-2007, 10:35
It's even easier than that to be honest, A MAC address is something that is hardcoded to the machine, its not software so technically it cannot be changed only spoofed.
There are tools available freely on the internet that are capable of reverse engineering a spoofed MAC. IIRC sourceforge.net has at least two or three.
These tools show the original and also spoofed address, as soon as you see a SACM utilizing a spoofed MAC you cut the link.
VirginMedia making "bids" on eBay, then not paying in order to locate these crooks, I think not...
Or, VM could offer a sum of money for illegal hardware plus full name and address of the seller. People who earn a living from bringing in these outlaws could be called "bounty hunters".
mrmistoffelees
27-07-2007, 11:02
Or, VM could offer a sum of money for illegal hardware plus full name and address of the seller. People who earn a living from bringing in these outlaws could be called "bounty hunters".
Im changing my name to Dog :D:erm:
Im changing my name to Dog :D:erm:
As in Snoop Dogg?
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2007/07/8.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Snoop_Dogg_Hawaii.jpg)
mrmistoffelees
27-07-2007, 13:15
As in Snoop Dogg?
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2007/07/8.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Snoop_Dogg_Hawaii.jpg)
no,
Download Failed (1)
From the p*ss poor program on Bravo of the same name
mr clone
27-07-2007, 17:21
You will never take me alive pig :D
Bloody hell you lot are only bitching about cloned modems because you do not know how to clone yourself one. the cloned modems have little or no effect on the network as a whole.
the truth is the network was over subscribed to start with and is falling too bits since the 20meg downgrade.
---------- Post added at 16:21 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------
ps before the smart ass posters start with virgin will trace you crap. these post are being done via some muppet in Madrid, that i back door bettyed with a sockets server earlier. :D:D:D
ps before the smart ass posters start with virgin will trace you crap. these post are being done via some Muppet in Madrid, that i back door betrayed with a sockets server earlier. :D:D:D
And while you where doing that i logged into you, Retrieved the photo's of you and your boyfriend in compromising positions in canal street and i will be selling them on EBay tonight. :LOL:
mr clone
27-07-2007, 17:41
lmao
---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------
Ill bet mr angry would be mr happy if he new how to flash his modem.
but I cant tell you how mr angry, because that would be against the forum rules.
mrmistoffelees
27-07-2007, 17:42
lmao
---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------
Ill bet mr angry would be mr happy if he new how to flash his modem.
but I cant tell you how mr angry, because that would be against the forum rules.
to quote Peter Kay.
'Have you ever kissed a girl ?' ;)
Mr Angry
27-07-2007, 17:51
lmao
---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------
Ill bet mr angry would be mr happy if he new how to flash his modem.
but I cant tell you how mr angry, because that would be against the forum rules.
Thanks, but no thanks. Information on how to flash my model of modem is readily available all over the web if I wanted to make use of it.
to quote Peter Kay.
'Have you ever kissed a girl ?' ;)
Not according to the photo's i have. :D
I am pretty certain there has been a full moon. The strange ones always come out when there is a full moon :LOL:
mrmistoffelees
27-07-2007, 17:54
Not according to the photo's i have. :D
or maybe he has, just he cant get the footpump going at the moment :D
mr clone
27-07-2007, 17:54
come on. you will have too do better than that guys.
mrmistoffelees
27-07-2007, 17:56
come on. you will have too do better than that guys.
No, no we don't :p:
mr clone
27-07-2007, 17:58
I was going to set up 10 clones but virgins network so crap it aint worth the bother.
or maybe he has, just he cant get the footpump going at the moment :D
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
MovedGoalPosts
27-07-2007, 18:02
Boasting about obtaining services without paying for them will not be tolerated on this forum. Simply put that is theft, which this forum will not condone. Any more and accounts will be suspended.
mr clone
27-07-2007, 18:04
lol whatever
come on. you will have too do better than that guys.
Did you suffer from a maturity bypass? I think so. Just so you know - and lets be clear about this. You are a...
THIEF!!!
and a bloody
SCUMBAG!!!
And you might think its smart hiding behind a anon proxy - But I can still kick your ass out of here. Now get off these forums yer cheap skate!!! :rolleyes:
Did you suffer from a maturity bypass? I think so. Just so you know - and lets be clear about this. You are a...
THIEF!!!
and a bloody
SCUMBAG!!!
And you might think its smart hiding behind a anon proxy - But I can still kick your ass out of here. Now get off these forums yer cheap skate!!! :rolleyes:
:clap::clap:
bigdave001
27-07-2007, 18:46
There is some intresting information on how thecloners do it here I found.
may give a bit morinsite into the cloners mind.
Link removed - we don't allow such things here. Jefferson T
Mr Angry
27-07-2007, 18:54
Rob, can you do me a favour and edit or delete the above link - I don't want this thread closed.
Cheers JT, much appreciated.
no,
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jan-16-Mon-2006/photos/5bounty.jpg
From the p*ss poor program on Bravo of the same name
Don't Diss the, "Dog"
Mr Angry
06-08-2007, 18:42
BUMP!!
Any word from the boffins at VM chaps?
TraxData
06-08-2007, 19:00
Did you suffer from a maturity bypass? I think so. Just so you know - and lets be clear about this. You are a...
THIEF!!!
and a bloody
SCUMBAG!!!
And you might think its smart hiding behind a anon proxy - But I can still kick your ass out of here. Now get off these forums yer cheap skate!!! :rolleyes:
Just wondering, but a friend of mine pays full whack for 20mbit, as well as full whack for all channels etc, has never had a retention deal (he has been with them waaaaay back since the diamond cable days)
he works 6am-5pm and when he get's home he likes to do abit of downloading + his kids download the odd song/video.
Now this mean's he goes over his limit very quickly and get shaped to 5mbit, while 5mbit may be "fine" he is never getting what he pays for (i know its upto, but you expect more than 5mbit)
so he has taken the route of cloned modem and just changes his mac every half hour when he passes the limit, if he needs to download something, and download it at the speed he needs to, now, he still pays full whack for his net, and only uses the cloned modem, is he a thief 2? ****? i dont think so.
he is giving VM well over £150/month, and deserve's a better service than that.
ADSL is not a choice for some people.
Just curious to your reply.
COntinuing with the contract is not only saying he wants that level of service, it is also saying that he agrees with and will co-exist with the AUP which goes with said service. Now he's decided that the AUP does not suit him - in that case he should cancel. He does not have the right to circumvent the AUP which he is apprarently agreeing to by continuing with the contract. Yes, he is on the wrong side of morality. You have to take the small print seriously and ask yourself, does this suit me, can I live with it? If the answer is "No", don't go with it. You can't go with it and bypass it and expect sympathy.
Just wondering, but a friend of mine pays full whack for 20mbit, as well as full whack for all channels etc, has never had a retention deal (he has been with them waaaaay back since the diamond cable days)
he works 6am-5pm and when he get's home he likes to do abit of downloading + his kids download the odd song/video.
Now this mean's he goes over his limit very quickly and get shaped to 5mbit, while 5mbit may be "fine" he is never getting what he pays for (i know its upto, but you expect more than 5mbit)
so he has taken the route of cloned modem and just changes his mac every half hour when he passes the limit, if he needs to download something, and download it at the speed he needs to, now, he still pays full whack for his net, and only uses the cloned modem, is he a thief 2? ****? i dont think so.
he is giving VM well over £150/month, and deserve's a better service than that.
ADSL is not a choice for some people.
Just curious to your reply.
imo he is a thief and it is a evil kind of theft by cloning a mac addy he is appearing to be somebody else if he is downloading illegal content he could get a innocent party into trouble at best he is traffic shaping some poor innocent at worst he is downloading vile porn in another innocents name ....not good :td::td:
TraxData
06-08-2007, 19:46
imo he is a thief and it is a evil kind of theft by cloning a mac addy he is appearing to be somebody else if he is downloading illegal content he could get a innocent party into trouble at best he is traffic shaping some poor innocent at worst he is downloading vile porn in another innocents name ....not good :td::td:
He isn't downloading illegal content though.
that's the thing, he dont download that much, but when he does, he need's his files as quick as he can get them.
It's like yesterday, i had a rather bad server screw up, which required me replacing the OS on 3 server's, and i couldnt find the DVD's with them on, so had to go download, now bare in mind, this is at least 11gb, not long with 20mbit connection. till i got shaped, and longer these server's were down, the more it was costing me, so i had no choice but to pop over and use his modem.
illegal or not i dont think it's fair to call him a thief when he is payin for his connection, and only downloading the odd few gb/week, and being punished for it.
me, i just stopped paying full price and got reductions on all of my packages with VM, and so have most people i know.
but i can still see why he does it.
homealone
06-08-2007, 19:49
Just wondering, but a friend of mine pays full whack for 20mbit, as well as full whack for all channels etc, has never had a retention deal (he has been with them waaaaay back since the diamond cable days)
he works 6am-5pm and when he get's home he likes to do abit of downloading + his kids download the odd song/video.
Now this mean's he goes over his limit very quickly and get shaped to 5mbit, while 5mbit may be "fine" he is never getting what he pays for (i know its upto, but you expect more than 5mbit)
so he has taken the route of cloned modem and just changes his mac every half hour when he passes the limit, if he needs to download something, and download it at the speed he needs to, now, he still pays full whack for his net, and only uses the cloned modem, is he a thief 2? ****? i dont think so.
he is giving VM well over £150/month, and deserve's a better service than that.
ADSL is not a choice for some people.
Just curious to your reply.
Not sure if Mick is online, but I'd like to comment.
I've seen too many posts on here where people are being throttled before they have 'themselves' downloaded anything, purely because someone had used their MAC on a cloned modem.
You may feel your mate is 'justified' in avoiding being throttled by doing this, but in reality he is stealing someone else's bandwidth. You may be of the opinion that he 'deserves' to do this because of what he pays - but don't the people he is stealing from 'deserve' to get what they pay for, too?
I'd be slightly more charitable if it affected Virgin Media in some way, but it doesn't, they don't care who sucks on the pipe, so long as they get paid. So I think he is a scumbag because he is callously stealing from his fellow customers....
TraxData
06-08-2007, 19:53
Not sure if Mick is online, but I'd like to comment.
I've seen too many posts on here where people are being throttled before they have 'themselves' downloaded anything, purely because someone had used their MAC on a cloned modem.
You may feel your mate is 'justified' in avoiding being throttled by doing this, but in reality he is stealing someone else's bandwidth. You may be of the opinion that he 'deserves' to do this because of what he pays - but don't the people he is stealing from 'deserve' to get what they pay for, too?
I'd be slightly more charitable if it affected Virgin Media in some way, but it doesn't, they don't care who sucks on the pipe, so long as they get paid. So I think he is a scumbag because he is callously stealing from his fellow customers....
Well if VM didnt traffic shape and make the normal user's suffer because they couldnt be bothered to upgrade their network or pay to stop cloned modems, then he wouldnt have to, would he?
yea he is stealing, tho he isnt as well, he pay's for his net, so yes and no.
VM shouldnt make it so easy to do it.
i know an awful lot of people who have moved over to cloned modem's because of this traffic shaping fiasco, it has made thing's alot worse here.
He isn't downloading illegal content though.
that's the thing, he dont download that much, but when he does, he need's his files as quick as he can get them.
It's like yesterday, i had a rather bad server screw up, which required me replacing the OS on 3 server's, and i couldnt find the DVD's with them on, so had to go download, now bare in mind, this is at least 11gb, not long with 20mbit connection. till i got shaped, and longer these server's were down, the more it was costing me, so i had no choice but to pop over and use his modem.
illegal or not i dont think it's fair to call him a thief when he is payin for his connection, and only downloading the odd few gb/week, and being punished for it.
me, i just stopped paying full price and got reductions on all of my packages with VM, and so have most people i know.
but i can still see why he does it.
a couple of points ....you dont know what your friend is downloading unless your there all the time. and in imo large files are usually illegal (copyright issues) and also you say he "needs" his files quick as he can get them ,again imo he dosnt need them quick he "wants" them quick and he is willing to wreck another customers account for his selfish gain. identity theft is wrong!!!!
TraxData
06-08-2007, 20:05
a couple of points ....you dont know what your friend is downloading unless your there all the time. and in imo large files are usually illegal (copyright issues) and also you say he "needs" his files quick as he can get them ,again imo he dosnt need them quick he "wants" them quick and he is willing to wreck another customers account for his selfish gain. identity theft is wrong!!!!
i know he doesnt download illegal thing's thankyou very much.
bring up downloading illegal content and expect an hour long lecture.
excuse me, but the whole point of 20mbit is to get thing's faster, or what's the point in having it? ah yes, there isnt any point.
He is just getting what he is paying for, and what he is supposed to get.
his area isnt over subscribed either, and when traffic shaping does kick in, his net goes to a complete stop, as does mine, he didnt wanna put up with 100+ms pings to game servers or waiting ages for important download's, call him whatever you like, though im beginning to think he is the smart one for not putting up with this crap from virginmedia, hell he has even told them he is using a cloned modem because of traffic shaping, they dont care, simply because he is still paying them, and that was straight from management, i've also been told the same by management, as long as your paying them in some way, they dont care if you use a cloned modem.
identity theft is wrong!! and he does get what he pays for, a shaped service if he goes over three gigs in peak hrs!! also a lot of the management cannot comment on this issue because they dont understand.
you dont seem to grasp that your stealing bandwidth from another paying customer.
homealone
06-08-2007, 20:29
identity theft is wrong!! and he does get what he pays for, a shaped service if he goes over three gigs in peak hrs!! also a lot of the management cannot comment on this issue because they dont understand.
you dont seem to grasp that your stealing bandwidth from another paying customer.
My point exactly, trying to shift the blame onto VM by pretending it is about the throttling issue is not relevant at all, it is still stealing.
@TraxData , The T&C's are quite clear, we may not all agree with the throttling, but nothing you say can condone the callous ripping off of other customers to get round them.
As for no 'illegal' content - it is someone else's bandwidth, so is illegal by definition, perhaps he ought to listen to his own lectures :erm:
exactly as piggy said
he is getting what he pays for!!
and its not the basis of stealing from vm which probably riles ppl on this (tho i dont think many would actually agree with it) its stealing from another customer that is soo wrong
I'm wondering though, if STM is monitored at UBR level, and theoretically you can't have two modems of the same MAC address on the same UBR, how would a theoretical cloned modem that is the subject of an STM downgrade affect the genuine user?
TraxData
06-08-2007, 21:28
I'm wondering though, if STM is monitored at UBR level, and theoretically you can't have two modems of the same MAC address on the same UBR, how would a theoretical cloned modem that is the subject of an STM downgrade affect the genuine user?
It dont, it works on per a UBR basis, if a mac is cloned and used on a ubr, when it gets shaped, it only gets shaped on that UBR, and as you cant have 2 macs on any one UBR, it doesnt affect the original mac address owner...
in theory you cant have two of the same macs on 1 ubr in practice you can. it just makes it easier to trace (ive seen it) so yes the thief/scumbag would effect the paying customer.
TraxData
06-08-2007, 21:56
in theory you cant have two of the same macs on 1 ubr in practice you can. it just makes it easier to trace (ive seen it) so yes the thief/scumbag would effect the paying customer.
then you have seen wrong, the STM kit as well as VM standard kit picks up when 2 macs are on the same UBR and boots them off within minutes to a few hours.
then you have seen wrong, the STM kit as well as VM standard kit picks up when 2 macs are on the same UBR and boots them off within minutes to a few hours.
thats where we both agree, they do get booted every hr or so but a 5min reboot restores service and yet again the innocent paying customer has had his/service disrupted by the thief/scumbag . there can never be any justification for stealing from a fellow customer and giving that fellow customer a degraded service.
TraxData
06-08-2007, 22:13
thats where we both agree, they do get booted every hr or so but a 5min reboot restores service and yet again the innocent paying customer has had his/service disrupted by the thief/scumbag . there can never be any justification for stealing from a fellow customer and giving that fellow customer a degraded service.
Nah once it's been booted it's practically impossible to get back on, as it throws constant maintenence requests at the modem, then broadcast errors.
homealone
06-08-2007, 22:54
thats where we both agree, they do get booted every hr or so but a 5min reboot restores service and yet again the innocent paying customer has had his/service disrupted by the thief/scumbag . there can never be any justification for stealing from a fellow customer and giving that fellow customer a degraded service.
thief & scumbag, I agree, too, if I ever thought someone had latched onto my MAC I would downgrade immediately ....
TraxData
06-08-2007, 23:17
thief & scumbag, I agree, too, if I ever thought someone had latched onto my MAC I would downgrade immediately ....
you can almost 100% guarentee someone has your mac cloned :rolleyes:
its more than a "little" problem, its a very widespread problem.
infact if i do a scan of my area i can pickup 30 cloned modems within an hour :rolleyes:
homealone
06-08-2007, 23:48
thief & scumbag, I agree, too, if I ever thought someone had latched onto my MAC I would downgrade immediately ....
in the meantime there is the 'ignore' function :)
excuse me, but the whole point of 20mbit is to get thing's faster, or what's the point in having it? ah yes, there isnt any point.
Not for some of us...
To tell the truth i could`nt give two hoots if i can download an iso in 5 mins or 45 mins most of the time.I`m certainly not interested in having any other types of download any quicker than what leaving a pc on overnight would deal with.
hokkers999
07-08-2007, 01:37
He isn't downloading illegal content though.
that's the thing, he dont download that much, but when he does, he need's his files as quick as he can get them.
It's like yesterday, i had a rather bad server screw up, which required me replacing the OS on 3 server's, and i couldnt find the DVD's with them on, so had to go download, now bare in mind, this is at least 11gb, not long with 20mbit connection. till i got shaped, and longer these server's were down, the more it was costing me, so i had no choice but to pop over and use his modem.
illegal or not i dont think it's fair to call him a thief when he is payin for his connection, and only downloading the odd few gb/week, and being punished for it.
me, i just stopped paying full price and got reductions on all of my packages with VM, and so have most people i know.
but i can still see why he does it.
So because YOU screwed up by not having made backups of these mega important to your business OS dvd's you try and justify stealing MY bandwidth. Unbelievable. So how many different versions of Linux do you run on these servers then :dozey:
Mr Angry
26-08-2007, 02:12
Coo eee!!
Coo eee!!
You expect VM to be paying attention at 2 in the morning? :erm: :D
plasticjanner
26-08-2007, 10:55
VM aren't making use of basic security features for their network.
Namely the Baseline-privacy (3DES encryption) which if you look in your modem
status will be 'off'.
Whilst that wouldn't help resolve this issue it shows a level of carelessness about security. It's time they introduced a new generation of modems with secure authentication along the lines of Public Key cryptography. So each customers modem uses an individual public-key to encrypt data to the UBR.
The UBR has the private-key pair and decrypts the data...
Authentication through MAC address is laughably outdated.
Especially when anyone can sniff the wire.
NTLVictim
26-08-2007, 18:49
They can't connect the REAL punters without umpteen phone calls, and you want to add yet another level of technology that the mumbai **** shovellers know nothing about??
Mick Fisher
27-08-2007, 00:46
They can't connect the REAL punters without umpteen phone calls, and you want to add yet another level of technology that the mumbai **** shovellers know nothing about??
True..but might be of use as a tool to combat over-subscription..
:LOL:
The network might finish up completely empty.
plasticjanner
27-08-2007, 09:27
Public Key encryption has been used with great success on mobile phone networks since 2G. You can't just bang in any old SIM-card and get chatting, it must be either genuine or an illegal clone of a genuine one.
Know anyone with a 'free' mobile phone that isn't cloned??
If that security wasn't there it would be a criminal free-for-all.
Much like the cable network. :p:
If mobile-operators can implement PKE over a complex medium like radio while using TDMA and FDMA and still have customers, why can't VM do it over a cable network with a pretty basic insecure QAM signal?
Mick Fisher
27-08-2007, 23:10
If mobile-operators can implement PKE over a complex medium like radio while using TDMA and FDMA and still have customers, why can't VM do it over a cable network with a pretty basic insecure QAM signal?
Most likely because they would have to spend some money to do it which they say they haven't got. They much prefer to give their spare cash to Uma Thurman and/or sponsoring naff TV shows.
I have now seen the idiot's guide how to clone your Ambit 200 modem, in very few easy steps ---google "cloned modems" and voila (4-th)! It's in bold letters but the instructions are nicely illustrated ;) It includes tutorials on finding your ubr, sniffing mac, spoofing the modems mac addy etc. In fact there are special tutorials for Langley, Bromley and TW ---obviously you want to customize your modem ;)
From the links provided, it appears every other kid is spoofing it, the software is quite widespread...What is Vergin doing about it?
broadbandbug
08-09-2007, 09:17
From what I understand and people I have spoken to.. They are doing something about Cloners.. However they are unlikely to tell us what that is as that would basically be telling the Cloners what they are doing to combat them and therefore giving them ideas as to what to do to combat that:)
I think it is something that is gathering more pace within VM since the 'how to' guides have become more prevalent and it is moving outside of the 'geek/hacker' community into general knowledge.
From what I understand and people I have spoken to.. They are doing something about Cloners.. However they are unlikely to tell us what that is as that would basically be telling the Cloners what they are doing to combat them and therefore giving them ideas as to what to do to combat that:)
I think it is something that is gathering more pace within VM since the 'how to' guides have become more prevalent and it is moving outside of the 'geek/hacker' community into general knowledge.
If you work for VM be careful. Talking about clones got a VM member on here a verbal warning from the men in black or so i have been told by a VM member on another site.
TraxData
08-09-2007, 10:03
If you work for VM be careful. Talking about clones got a VM member on here a verbal warning from the men in black or so i have been told by a VM member on another site.
Yea, it breaks their NDA to discuss any information about "cloners".
There was a discussion on the newsgoups a few days ago (where i was admittedly in a bad mood and posted a rant about certain sites giving all these details out and the fact VM staff were helping the cloners, even selling modems to them).
Alex brown didnt reply at all, cant think why :rolleyes:
They have trials in place currently to stop them though...and i know it's been working in -certain- area's
Yea, it breaks their NDA to discuss any information about "cloners".
There was a discussion on the newsgoups a few days ago (where i was admittedly in a bad mood and posted a rant about certain sites giving all these details out and the fact VM staff were helping the cloners, even selling modems to them).
Alex brown didnt reply at all, cant think why :rolleyes:
They have trials in place currently to stop them though...and i know it's been working in -certain- area's
I have contacts with a few VM members on various forums and they all say they have to be careful nowadays
Dear all,
posted
20-07-2007, 09:21
Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. Those participating and reading can now be in no doubt whatsoever that this problem of cloned mac addresses and flashed modem availability is, irrespective of what VM may or may not be doing, exceptionally widespread.
The fact of the matter is that honest paying customers are being fleeced by a company who cannot even deign to answer a simple question whilst others are availing, at no extra cost, of services beyond their contractual agreement.
VM stated that 5% of users were "abusing" the AUP and cited this as the primary reason for the introduction of the current traffic management system. They further stated the following:
"Here at Virgin Media, we want all our customers to get the best service possible from their broadband. That means speedy downloads for all users – not just a few."
"This ensures that the service doesn't get blocked up with people using more than their fair share – which means a lot fewer traffic jams on the information superhighway."
Rather than get involved in requesting what might be potentially commercially sensitive information regarding what, if any, steps VM are taking to tackle this issue I'd like to cut to the chase.
I'd like to ask one of the site mods or admin to approach their VM contact to ascertain just where the two quotations above fit in with this "head in the sand" attitude towards cloned MAC addresses, flashed modems and theft of service.
It would be interesting to see their reply.
did you ever get the answer Mr A?.
did you ever get the answer Mr A?.
Oh look there is a pig flying at the speed of sound :D I heard its COMING SOON
Mr Angry
13-09-2007, 17:53
did you ever get the answer Mr A?.
Sadly no.
When I spoke to retentions I was asked why I was leaving and I explained that one key reason was that I was not prepared to continue paying £37.00 per month for a decidedly unstable connection when there were thousands of people abusing the network paying as little as nothing for an equal, if not better, service than I as a legally paying customer was receiving.
I advised the person I spoke with that if they themselves could afford me any reason for me to continue paying for a service which I could quite readily obtain for free should I elect to do so then I would be prepared to stay - they were unable to afford a reply.
Put simply - I am not prepared to continue lining the pockets of a company who would treat me like a fool by turning a blind eye to wanton theft and abuse of their services whilst expecting me to pay (just take a look on ebay).
This is not, nor was it ever, an exercise in seeing how far they were prepared to discount me. The facts of the matter are that VM is in freefall. It has no strategic plan for its own future and is interested only in turning a quick buck by whatever dubious means it can rather than addressing the core issues and challenges it faces.
We are talking about a company that is quite prepared to make redundant thousands of its diligent hard working call centre staff and outsource those jobs to other countries to save money rather than proactively and visibly pursue and prosecute those who are stealing from them. That is where the big revenue leaks are - theft.
Paying customers are being taken for a ride. The next time something goes wrong with the broadband in your area I'd advise paying customers to think long and hard before ringing the support line and consider this; the money that you, personally, as a legitimate customer will be paying to report a fault in your area is "free money" to VM because while you're on the phone paying for support those in your area with cloned modems are simply away from their computers making a cup of tea knowing that "some other mug" will be paying, through the nose, to call VM to have them come out and fix the problem.
Snip
And sadly they have or so i am led to believe stopped members of staff from commenting in this thread
Sorry but i have been requested via a phone call this morning not to post anymore in this thread. Go figure as to why :(
Have you noticed that member of staff is no longer on here. Is that another example of Virgin customer service
homealone
13-09-2007, 20:16
We are talking about a company that is quite prepared to make redundant thousands of its diligent hard working call centre staff and outsource those jobs to other countries to save money rather than proactively and visibly pursue and prosecute those who are stealing from them. That is where the big revenue leaks are - theft.
In the present circumstances that is an extremely good point.
As with too many other companies, lately, the shots seem to called by marketeers & financiers. The other parts of the business, especially the more 'technical' ones, are seen as a cost with no return, to be tossed aside when expedient.......
NTLVictim
13-09-2007, 21:07
"Tossed"..interesting choice of words...
homealone
13-09-2007, 21:33
"Tossed"..interesting choice of words...
how would you describe being made redundant?
have you ever experienced being made redundant?
- how would you describe your employers, if you had? - 'tossed' seemed apt ;)
Wicked_and_Crazy
13-09-2007, 22:39
how would you describe being made redundant?
have you ever experienced being made redundant?
- how would you describe your employers, if you had? - 'tossed' seemed apt ;)
Is that an occupational benefit ;)
NTLVictim
14-09-2007, 08:48
how would you describe being made redundant?
have you ever experienced being made redundant?
- how would you describe your employers, if you had? - 'tossed' seemed apt ;)
That was my point.:)
One mob I got made redundant by were heavy imbibers of soft drinks.
I told them they were coke suckers on the way out.
Doesn't really surprise me there are so many cloned modems, I got my confirmation of disconnection through the post this morning and in it it says
If you've been using one of our modems, then you can hold onto it for now, but if you move out then please leave this behind.How many modems are there lying around? Not very well managed imo.
:shocking:
I used to have all my services through NTL/VM, but am slowly having one by one disconnected. I just have the 20mb BB at present, and that's only because I have a deal on it. £17.50pm. Once this deal ends, i'm off! :(
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