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mondeo
22-06-2007, 15:33
Just got this Email today, and this has to be false advertising, or VM have taken traffic shaping off the VIP packages.

You don't need a Chihuahua in your handbag to get VIP treatment. With Virgin Media's Very Impressive Package, you can get the absolute cream of TV, Broadband, Phone and Mobile - making your home the digital palace it should be.

We're talking TV that stops and starts when you say so; a V+ box that lets you pause and rewind live telly; 20Mb broadband without any boring download limits; a flashy new mobile with 500 minutes and (count them) 500 texts every month and a phone tariff that lets you talk until the cows come home.

We'll even give you an extra £60 airtime vouchers for your mobile. So roll out the red carpet, cue the drum roll and get ready to welcome digital royalty into your home.

THUNDER1
22-06-2007, 15:35
if you look on broadband home page it states that for the L and XL services anyway but with a little symbol which refers you to the fair use policy - of which traffic shaping is part of.

Derek
22-06-2007, 15:36
Oh lord here we go again.

I'm sure there are already plenty of threads regarding advertising claims about limits and traffic shaping.

I'm not entirely convinced we need another one.

Stuart
22-06-2007, 15:36
We've had this discussion a lot. As shaping does not actually stop you downloading, Virgin do not count it as a limit.

mondeo
22-06-2007, 16:02
Can I make one thing clear.
I know shaping does not stop you downloading :dozey:

I refer you to a point of fact:
20Mb broadband without any boring download limits

Having "ANY" in their statement means there are no limits on downloading in any form. This must include traffic shaping, as it IS a form of limiting the flow and amount of data transfer from their servers to the PC on the account. By exceeding a fixed amount of data over a set period, the data transfer speed is reduced by VM. This limits the amount of data you can then transfer/receive within that fixed period of time, thus making it a download limit.

What it states in the terms of use etc has no relevance. By promoting the service as being "without any boring download limits", they are making a false claim.
Advertising is judged by what an average Jo could be reasonably expected to believe the advertisement to mean. Not what may be written within the small print of a contract.

If another thread has be started regarding this current advertising Email, then feel free to merge the topic :shocked:

Sirpingalot
22-06-2007, 16:07
True. False advertising, but I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere.

Toto
22-06-2007, 16:15
For gawds sake can we close this thread and move on.

Better still. rather than a news section on the front page, perhaps we can have some step by step instructions on how to use this boards excellent search engine?

jcardiff
22-06-2007, 16:15
the advertising standards agency are examining half a dozen different ways that virgin have been advertising no download restrictions although this had been stated on numerous threads already, you can just go to their site and make a complaint

mondeo
22-06-2007, 16:28
Already done that and forwarded the Email.
As someone who brought DSG ltd to it's knees over a similar false advertising complaint in 2004-05, I feel justified and confident in the complaint.
And like I've said, if this latest advertising Email has been covered else where, just merge it over.

Toto, don't throw your toys out of the pram, it's only a forum thread. You didn't have to reply to it, and it would have fallen down the list in no time if left alone.

PS: forum search works fine, but thanks for pointing it out for other users :rolleyes:

Toto
22-06-2007, 18:03
I'm not throwing anything thing out of any four/three wheeled baby carriage, I am simply rather tired of well worn discussions that can easily be tagged on to the many well worn threads dealing with....well actually, well worn discussion topics.

Good luck with your campaign though, I didn't realise you single handidly brought down a company called DSG ltd.

Peil
22-06-2007, 18:13
Lets just look at the logic that you have above - This limits the amount of data you can then transfer/receive within that fixed period of time, thus making it a download limit.

Under that thinking it is entirely reasonable to assume that by limiting your connectivity speed to even 20Mb then you are limited in terms of what you can download.
In a court setting it would come down to a test of reasonableness - and while I admit that in my opinion VM have really shot themselves in the foot on how they have worded this, surely they have to manage the network as best they can? Going from the point of view of my own workplace, we do get situations where the network slows down due to P2P software deployments, and unless you do start throttling then you end up with everything fighting for the pipe and you loose core services.
I would suspect for the majority of people with a connection then they would define their core services as Internet Browsing and email/IM.
Sure a lot of people do use P2P, and frankly I couldn't care less whether they use it for their 45th Linux ISO or another download of Co-Ed houseparty.

Put it another way, you know that traffic jam you get stuck in trying to get home, are you going to with-hold road tax until the Govt add more lanes to the road, or do you either accept there will be periods of heavy traffic and the road can't take any more?

No doubt I'll get flamed to hell and back for this, but frankly I accept that if I want a far better contention ratio, and guaranteed bandwidth then I better start looking at a business line, with associated higher costs. To be honest I have seen my line go from 256k to 20mb - although admittedly not at the same cost, but with VIP it's still a decent deal - and I can honestly say that in terms of uptime and whats available in terms of the competition I'm pretty happy.

xspeedyx
22-06-2007, 18:21
I really would move for this thread to be closed or merged

alferret
22-06-2007, 18:26
I really would move for this thread to be closed or merged

I concur :tu:

Jabbs
22-06-2007, 18:33
I don't really understand the complaining, try a adsl line that gives you a 50 gig cap or somet, i pay £30 month for a 45gig peak hrs cap and 300 gig off peak( 8pm-8am and all weekends) i just don't get the complaints because they have limited your speed on 20/10meg down too 5(more than i get now on adsl).

There is nothing more annoying than seeing something you want in the day for example and you can't download because you are close to your quota for the month, i would much prefer how Vm have it so you get slower speeds between 4-12? there is nothing stopping people putting downloads on over night or in the day when at work, it sounds like heaven to me and i can't wait till we move and get on VM 20meg.

All i see is people moaning and what for you pay £7 more than i do, you get 5x the speed i get and feel the need to complain because you are restricted abit.

TraxData
22-06-2007, 18:35
I don't really understand the complaining, try a adsl line that gives you a 50 gig cap or somet, i pay £30 month for a 45gig peak hrs cap and 300 gig off peak( 8pm-8am and all weekends) i just don't get the complaints because they have limited your speed on 20/10meg down too 5(more than i get now on adsl).

There is nothing more annoying than seeing something you want in the day for example and you can't download because you are close to your quota for the month, i would much prefer how Vm have it so you get slower speeds between 4-12? there is nothing stopping people putting downloads on over night or in the day when at work, it sounds like heaven to me and i can't wait till we move and get on VM 20meg.

dont sound like heaven when your a normal working person who actually sleeps through the night, work during the day, come home to user your net, the thing that your paying for, gettin 20mins in, and suddenly getting capped.

piggy
22-06-2007, 18:40
@mondeo

bought dsg ltd to its knees!!!!!!!!

now that is false advertising....or is it only big companys that arnt allowed to exaggerate:dozey::dozey:

Jabbs
22-06-2007, 18:40
Put your downloads on at night, or in the morning before you goto work, i can't see the problem i have to wait till 8pm for off peaks and soon as it hits 10pm when all the adsl home users come on my speed halves then it comes back at roughly 1-2am, the only reason i stay is entanet give such a big off peaks its hard to come by to find adslmax packages with high download limits.

I know someone that pays £60 a month for a unlimited 2 meg business adsl account, you people are lucky with cable broadband and getting 20 meg sheesh, even 10 meg is amazing, my point being you should look how lucky you actually are when you live in a cable area, my mate pays £29.99 and can only get 512k adsl.

Bill C
22-06-2007, 18:47
@mondeo

bought dsg ltd to its knees!!!!!!!!

now that is false advertising....or is it only big companys that arnt allowed to exaggerate:dozey::dozey:


:LOL:

mondeo
22-06-2007, 19:15
@mondeo

bought dsg ltd to its knees!!!!!!!!

now that is false advertising....or is it only big companys that arnt allowed to exaggerate:dozey::dozey:


Really. If you would like to contact DSG HQ and discuss it with them, I am more than happy for you to do so. If you would like to mention the following, they will soon know who I am
1/ Audio Dream
2/ Sacked PC world Employee (not me by the way, never worked for them)
3/ File limitations and product description
4/ Hackers trying to crash sites and PC
5/ 1000's of customers getting refunds, that were refused before I took action.
6/ Me accessing their network through open systems and tracing hackers from their company.
7/ Apologies from HQ management.

Can't be arsed giving you the full story, but it is all over the net if you look;)

PS: DSG ltd Are Dixsons Store Group Ltd AKA PC world and Currys etc

alferret
22-06-2007, 20:01
SNIP! but it is all over the net if you look;)

PS: DSG ltd Are Dixsons Store Group Ltd AKA PC world and Currys etc


link pls, cant seem to find anything using my friend.

mondeo
22-06-2007, 20:37
Sorry, given all the info needed (try looking for dates around the 21/1/2005). I've got nothing to prove, but you seem to want to dig to prove a point.
Try phoning Martin Cooper of the DSG retail group. or writing to them at PO Box 795, Hemel Mempstead, Herts, HP2 7YB

Knock ya self out, you'll find something eventually.

MovedGoalPosts
22-06-2007, 20:46
Lets get back to the topic please ;)

I dare say VM are quite confident in their stance, after all they got away with advertising unlimited broadband as meaning unlimited access to it, despite their capping policies.

RXP
22-06-2007, 21:08
Month 2007/06:
Download 430120 MB
Upload 24418.1 MB
Total 454538 MB

I'd say it's unlimited, eh.

arcamalpha2004
22-06-2007, 21:16
Lets get back to the topic please ;)

I dare say VM are quite confident in their stance, after all they got away with advertising unlimited broadband as meaning unlimited access to it, despite their capping policies.


Until they are found guilty of miselling a product with lies, which imo they are.

MovedGoalPosts
22-06-2007, 21:20
Yep but unfortunately, with the instance quoted above the ASA found in favour of ntl (as they then were). Doesn't bode well for current unhappy punters :(

arcamalpha2004
22-06-2007, 21:26
Yep but unfortunately, with the instance quoted above the ASA found in favour of ntl (as they then were). Doesn't bode well for current unhappy punters :(


People need to see through the lies, thats the trick ;)

Toto
23-06-2007, 08:10
Sorry, but I just get the impression here that because Mondeo says he brought down the biggest electrical retail chain, correction, got them to admit some sort of problem, that this thread is not about VM being wrong, but about him being right.

If Mondeo wants to go on a one man crusade then fine, but in honesty there has been so much noise about this anyway, I hardly think VM or the ASA will take any notice.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 09:34
Month 2007/06:
Download 430120 MB
Upload 24418.1 MB
Total 454538 MB

I'd say it's unlimited, eh.


Agreed :tu:

ntluser
23-06-2007, 11:27
Sad that there is no-one with teeth really monitoring the broadband industry.

Also, sad that it is more important to support failing broadband providers (so they stay in business) rather than support users by compelling providers to come up to standard.

I think that if broadband providers were a bit more honest and used their common sense they would not advertise or sell a product that they cannot reliably provide.

I would much prefer a 4Mb service that works reliably 24/7 to a 10Mb service that changes every minute of the day.

I know there is competition between providers but that does not mean there has to be an inconsistency in standard.

mondeo
23-06-2007, 11:35
Sorry, but I just get the impression here that because Mondeo says he brought down the biggest electrical retail chain, correction, got them to admit some sort of problem, that this thread is not about VM being wrong, but about him being right.

If Mondeo wants to go on a one man crusade then fine, but in honesty there has been so much noise about this anyway, I hardly think VM or the ASA will take any notice.

:dozey:
I'm not trying to prove anything, just 1 or 2 people trying to prove I didn't. I could prove my actions with a few links, but I would rather let others waste their time hunting, as it must matter so much to them.
I NEVER said I single handedly brought them down, that's your imagination going wild.
brought DSG ltd to it's knees over a similar false advertising complaint in 2004-05
That means I got them to admit they were wrong, and got 1000's of customers their money back. FACT
NOW can you keep on topic please:rolleyes:

Toto
23-06-2007, 12:00
OK, back on topic

VM say there are no download limits on VIP, that advert in my opinion, having received it myself, and being on that package is absolutely, 100 per cent, balls to the wall factual.

I know, because I live that reality daily.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:09
OK, back on topic

VM say there are no download limits on VIP, that advert in my opinion, having received it myself, and being on that package is absolutely, 100 per cent, balls to the wall factual.

I know, because I live that reality daily.

Having already downloaded 280 gig this month would someone in the Virgin is limited camp care to tell me at what point my downloads will be limited this month as i will probably be doing another 120 gig at least and as you say i will be limited, I would like to know at what point i will be limited and will i be able to complete the other 120 gig ?.

christopherw
23-06-2007, 12:21
Having already downloaded 280 gig this month would someone in the Virgin is limited camp care to tell me at what point my downloads will be limited this month as i will probably be doing another 120 gig at least and as you say i will be limited, I would like to know at what point i will be limited and will i be able to complete the other 120 gig ?.

Do em asap before your area gets STM :/

scrotnig
23-06-2007, 12:22
dont sound like heaven when your a normal working person who actually sleeps through the night, work during the day, come home to user your net, the thing that your paying for, gettin 20mins in, and suddenly getting capped.
The mistake you've made is in the first line. I don't want to get into controversial areas covered by other threads, however "normal working person" doesn't carry any weight any more, people who work are in the minority, and many services, particularly internet related ones, are increasingly geared towards the new and ever growing group of people who can afford comfortable lifestyles financed by the state. Thus they are quite able to stay up all night if needs be as they have no inconvenient work to go to. (I wasn't referring to the person you replied to incidentally).

It's the same mentality that leads to local councils insisting your wheelie bin is not put out for collection before 9am and is retrieved before 4pm....takes no account of people who work for a living, since so many people don't. But now I've REALLY gone off topic....

My view is that VM *is* falsely advertising their download limit situation, but as long as OFCOM continues to be run by ex-industry people who are more concerned with enabling companies to make profits than protecting the consumer from a rip off, this situation will NOT change.

OFCOM needs disbanding and replacing by a regulator with some teeth and gumption.

RXP
23-06-2007, 12:22
I got STM, still used ~500gb so far. No other ISP will let you get near that.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:29
Do em asap before your area gets STM :/

It has got it.

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

I got STM, still used ~500gb so far. No other ISP will let you get near that.

Agreed.

Now can the Virgin is Limited camp please tell me when my downloads will be limited and by how much ?

Nice speeds at the moment :tu: Virgin

mondeo
23-06-2007, 12:37
If you did your downloading in the peak times, like many do, you would not get your 400 gig within a month. If you say between the hours of 5PM (back from work) and 12PM (when they would go to bed).
Many people do not like to leave a PC on over night, or when they are out/at work. So the 400 gig they would normally have been able to download in their hours at the PC in a month, would be reduced because of the cut in speed after the first 3 gig they download each day.

You can work it out exactly using this site
http://www.t1shopper.com/tools/calculate/downloadcalculator.shtml

PS: Neither VM or any PC maker would recommend leaving a PC on 24/7 or when a home is unattended

Incomplete
23-06-2007, 12:38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_cap

Download > 3GB on XL within the monitored period and you are then limited to 1/4th of your nominal maximum throughput and therefore the amount you can download is artificially capped / limited during that period.

So enough of this rubbish about unlimited downloads, there is a limit placed for 4 hours at a time on anyone who triggers the STM as they are then absolutely unable to reach their peak period whether the bandwidth is there or not.

Seriously enough. It's a cap, a very clear and specified one, at which point the action is taken to throttle connections down.

The Wikipedia article, subject to far more extensive review than VM customers posting how much they've downloaded on a forum is very clear on this, I agree 100% with it. It's not shaping as there are predefined limits, it's a cap at which point users trigger the action of throttling them.

The limits are without a doubt very generous, however it doesn't change that it's now impossible with STM to download at 100% of the capacity of the connection with all parts of it working technically flawlessly.

So enough of this blah blah I've downloaded 3 gazillion gigabits, if you connection is capable working optimally of downloading 4 gazillion gigabits but you are only able to do 3 gazillion going flat out due to an artificial limit you're capped.

Amusing really that if you go here to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_Online Wikipedia use words like bandwidth capping, Optimum don't advertise their service as unlimited, as they use STM on the upstream channels.

Maybe they should sue Wikipedia for claiming their service isn't unlimited?

Mr Angry
23-06-2007, 12:39
[quote=Bill
Now can the Virgin is Limited camp please tell me when my downloads will be limited and by how much ?[/quote]

Bill, Happy to oblige (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html).

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:40
If you did your downloading in the peak times, like many do, you would not get your 400 gig within a month. If you say between the hours of 5PM (back from work) and 12PM (when they would go to bed).
Many people do not like to leave a PC on over night, or when they are out/at work. So the 400 gig they would normally have been able to download in their hours at the PC in a month, would be reduced because of the cut in speed after the first 3 gig they download.

You can work it out exactly using this site
http://www.t1shopper.com/tools/calculate/downloadcalculator.shtml

PS: Neither VM or any PC maker would recommend leaving a PC on 24/7 or when a home is unattended

The pc i use for downloading is in the shed and i log-in remotely and yes it is on 24-7. The time therefor has no bearing on me at all.

Incomplete
23-06-2007, 12:40
Now can the Virgin is Limited camp please tell me when my downloads will be limited and by how much ?

Virgin themselves state this very clearly on their website. When you reach 3GB between 4pm and midnight, and you'll be restricted to 1/4th of the throughput you could expect on the 20Mbit service, so you'll be unable to download what you could have with the other 3/4ths of the throughput.

As far as other ISPs not allowing it there are several who can and do.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:42
Bill, Happy to oblige (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html).

So will that stop me from downloading say ? 600 gig in a month ?

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

Virgin themselves state this very clearly on their website. When you reach 3GB between 4pm and midnight, and you'll be restricted to 1/4th of the throughput you could expect on the 20Mbit service, so you'll be unable to download what you could have with the other 3/4ths of the throughput.

As far as other ISPs not allowing it there are several who can and do.

Again will that stop me downloading say 600 gig a month ?

Mr Angry
23-06-2007, 12:44
So will that stop me from downloading say ? 600 gig in a month ?

I don't know, but if you find that it doesn't then maybe you should phone up and complain that you're not being traffic managed properly?

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:46
I don't know, but if you find that it doesn't then maybe you should phone up and complain that you're not being traffic managed properly?

But i am

mondeo
23-06-2007, 12:46
Bill, how many people have a PC in their shed that runs 24/7.
Get real, we are talking PC users. Not someone abusing the service 24/7 from a shed based file server/system. But I guess we now know why we are getting limits put on, if people like yourself are downloading 24/7 from your shed :td:

Mr Angry
23-06-2007, 12:49
600 gig at 2meg is

29 days according to the link provided by mondeo

That rules Febraury out 3 years out of 4 then.

Bill, are you Steve Stewart in disguise?

Ernie_C
23-06-2007, 12:51
All this toing and froing is really beginning to bore me. There are opposing views. I don't have a problem with that.

Only one solution. If you don't like STM, don't tolerate it - go elsewhere. Easy.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:53
Bill, how many people have a PC in their shed that runs 24/7.
Get real, we are talking PC users. Not someone abusing the service 24/7 from a shed based file server/system. But I guess we now know why we are getting limits put on, if people like yourself are downloading 24/7 from your shed :td:

To be honest i don't download 24-7 and i normally do about 300 gig at the most, I am just trying to say that i can get what i want when i want and i have as yet never been stopped by a limit. My shed pc is a file server for my Windows media centre pc and extenders which are connected to each TV in the house. The pc is NOT downloading 24-7 but it is on 24-7 :). You said it was downloading 24-7 not me :) Get real yourself and make sure you are stating facts not assumptions about waht people do with there connections

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 ----------

That rules Febraury out 3 years out of 4 then.

Bill, are you Steve Stewart in disguise?

No try again :)

Mr Angry
23-06-2007, 12:54
No try again :)

Ruby Wax?

Bill C
23-06-2007, 12:58
All this toing and froing is really beginning to bore me. There are opposing views. I don't have a problem with that.

Only one solution. If you don't like STM, don't tolerate it - go elsewhere. Easy.

Many on here have said they will jump, Hardly any have had the balls to do it :)

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

Ruby Wax?

Only if i can have her wage as well. :LOL:

Mr Angry
23-06-2007, 13:02
Bill I'm sure there's a certain degree of truth in what you say about people threatening to leave and not doing so, however, it's a fairly safe bet that the early opt out / contract cessation penalties imposed by VM play a very significant part in that decision.

Smart move on their part.

mondeo
23-06-2007, 13:06
You said it was downloading 24-7 not me

True, but the rest of what I said stands.
What % of users here have a file server downloading 300Gig of data pcm in their shed?
What % of users have a PC in their home for downloading stuff.
And what % have jobs to go to and go to bed without leaving the PC on 24/7.

I think you will find that you are in the minority;) or may be the top 5% that VM are quoting as the reason for the limits :Yikes:

Bill C
23-06-2007, 13:07
Bill I'm sure there's a certain degree of truth in what you say about people threatening to leave and not doing so, however, it's a fairly safe bet that the early opt out / contract cessation penalties imposed by VM play a very significant part in that decision.

Smart move on their part.

To be honest i cannot say as i work in a differant department for now, However as i am looking for a job away from Virgin i will soon not be able to comment at all.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------

True, but the rest of what I said stands.
What % of users here have a file server downloading 300Gig of data pcm in their shed?
What % of users have a PC in their home for downloading stuff.
And what % have jobs to go to and go to bed without leaving the PC on 24/7.

I think you will find that you are in the minority;) or may be the top 5% that VM are quoting as the reason for the limits :Yikes:

I think you are 100% correct i am in the top 5% and was one of those that received a letter in the past for being a bad boy :Yikes:.

However i pay for it so i should be able to use it. BTW i do not agree with traffic shaping, read some of my past posts on the subject from last September. However its here now and i honestly do not think Virgin are going to remove it. It is my opinion that nearly all isp's will shape in some form or other within 2 years if only to control the massive increase in bandwidth usage and to limit the increased spending needed to keep up the our connections are faster than yours battle. I for one would sooner have a unshaped 10 meg than a shaped 20 meg.

Mr Angry
23-06-2007, 13:08
To be honest i cannot say as i work in a differant department for now, However as i am looking for a job away from Virgin i will soon not be able to comment at all.

Well, all the best with the job hunting and when it works out at least you'll be able to post here relatively hassle free.

mondeo
23-06-2007, 13:11
To be honest i cannot say as i work in a differant department for now, However as i am looking for a job away from Virgin i will soon not be able to comment at all.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------



I think you are 100% correct i am in the top 5% and was one of those that recived a letter in the past for being a bad boy :Yikes:.

Well there you go then. And I guess like most VM people, you are not paying full price for your services either. And that is a guess, as I know a few VM guys who get a big discount.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 13:20
Well there you go then. And I guess like most VM people, you are not paying full price for your services either. And that is a guess, as I know a few VM guys who get a big discount.

Thats between me and Virgin, However i will not be here for much longer so i will be paying the same as everyone else and will still be on Virgin Broadband :Yikes:

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------

you'll be able to post here relatively hassle free.

Just watch me :LOL:

dilli-theclaw
23-06-2007, 13:21
I am on the vip pack, pay full price, and have a fileserver on 24/7...

No complaints here, went off to adsl for 12months a few years back now when I was having problems with ntl.

Now I'm back to stay :)

bringerofnoise
23-06-2007, 13:34
Well, come 4 0 clock speeds will be cut in half without touching the 3 gig limit
and thus my connection is being limited. However VM say "No download limits" on VIP by this they mean you can download infinite gigs worth of data, obviously the catch is they cut your connection speed in half meaning you can't possibly reach the full potential in data downloaded.

And basically it comes down to word-play, in my eyes your connection is limited aaand at the times your going to use it most.

"If you don't like it leave" :rolleyes: but that still does not hide the fact that VM need to get their **** together and if everyone follows that gem of advice and leaves how will VM be able to improve and stick it to murdoch?

Incomplete
23-06-2007, 14:13
So will that stop me from downloading say ? 600 gig in a month ?

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------



Again will that stop me downloading say 600 gig a month ?

So because you can download 600GB a month there's no limit?

OK so if I go with Sky Connect on 40GB can I call it unlimited as it doesn't stop me downloading 30GB a month? :dunce:

Go try downloading the maximum possible on your connection. Oh you can't. Because after 3GB between 4PM and Midnight it's limited for 4 hours.

Limited. Download speeds are artificially limited.

Hardly unlimited downloads regardless of how generous the limits are, and whether or not other ISPs are better or worse is irrelevant. This is not limited subject to FUP this is clearly limited and limits stated on website.

NTLVictim
23-06-2007, 14:15
Mondeo, I've been searching using your keywords about the DSG thang and getting nowhere...I don't think you're as famous as you think.

alferret
23-06-2007, 14:22
So because you can download 600GB a month there's no limit?

OK so if I go with Sky Connect on 40GB can I call it unlimited as it doesn't stop me downloading 30GB a month? :dunce:

Go try downloading the maximum possible on your connection. Oh you can't. Because after 3GB between 4PM and Midnight it's limited for 4 hours.

Limited. Download speeds are artificially limited.

Hardly unlimited downloads regardless of how generous the limits are, and whether or not other ISPs are better or worse is irrelevant. This is not limited subject to FUP this is clearly limited and limits stated on website.

I really like your logic :erm:

Bill C
23-06-2007, 14:25
So because you can download 600GB a month there's no limit?

OK so if I go with Sky Connect on 40GB can I call it unlimited as it doesn't stop me downloading 30GB a month? :dunce:

Go try downloading the maximum possible on your connection. Oh you can't. Because after 3GB between 4PM and Midnight it's limited for 4 hours.

Limited. Download speeds are artificially limited.

Hardly unlimited downloads regardless of how generous the limits are, and whether or not other ISPs are better or worse is irrelevant. This is not limited subject to FUP this is clearly limited and limits stated on website.


Well it would be unlimited for you if all you downloaded was 30 gig :LOL:

600 gig compared to 40 gig. Think i know who i will keep on using. :rolleyes:

:LOL:

RXP
23-06-2007, 14:28
Haha, the shed's fault!

Nice idea about putting a server away in a shed. Mine's on 24/7 too but I log in via RDP cause it has no keyboard/mouse/monitor.

mondeo
23-06-2007, 14:56
Mondeo, I've been searching using your keywords about the DSG thang and getting nowhere...I don't think you're as famous as you think.

Oh it's there alright, but being "famous" is again something I never claimed.
But we are again drifting off topic trying to justify previous comments about me.

Bill C
23-06-2007, 14:58
Haha, the shed's fault!

Nice idea about putting a server away in a shed. Mine's on 24/7 too but I log in via RDP cause it has no keyboard/mouse/monitor.

Same as me and my main point for it being in the shed is so i can run it 24-7 and no noise in the house from it.

Incomplete
23-06-2007, 18:09
Well it would be unlimited for you if all you downloaded was 30 gig :LOL:

600 gig compared to 40 gig. Think i know who i will keep on using. :rolleyes:

:LOL:

I see. So by your logic so long as you don't hit or don't care about such a limit the service is unlimited. Cool.

Also I do love comparing the top end package of one supplier to the £5 per month on-net / £17 per month off-net (30% of UK only) package of the other ;)

Sadly we can't compare VM's broadband to Sky's directly as Sky's most expensive and only unlimited package is a tenner on top of a TV package while Virgin charge £37 for their top package and £18 for their bottom one.

You already know that of course but it doesn't really help your point.

Thanks for contradicting yourself anyway. So in summary unlimited means unlimited if you don't care / don't hit the limit. In that case all those limited services that actually say they have a cap should change their advertising to reflect this.

:rolleyes: back at your somewhat failed attempt at sarcasm :)

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

I really like your logic :erm:

Perhaps you should read up, it's Bill C's logic not mine. Doesn't really hide that the limits are there though so I'm not sure why Bill is trying to contradict his employer, it may not affect him but it's clearly there and clearly stated :)

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34334401-post42.html

Hugh
23-06-2007, 18:54
So to summarise....

What VM should be saying is:-
No Download quantity limits, but there are download speed limits.

Because you can download as much as you want, it will just take you longer - or have I got it wrong?

Incomplete
23-06-2007, 19:26
So to summarise....

What VM should be saying is:-
No Download quantity limits, but there are download speed limits.

Because you can download as much as you want, it will just take you longer - or have I got it wrong?

Speed affects quantity, so by limiting speed they also limit quantity.

In one sentence, with STM active even with all technologies working perfectly it is impossible to achieve the maximum throughput over the course of a daily / weekly / monthly period on your service due to STM limiting your connection speed and therefore throughput below this level.

Chris W
23-06-2007, 19:35
So if it is the speed that is being limited, then they are correct in advertising an "upto 20meg" product, as this speed is achievable. They are also correct in advertising unlimited quantity of download, as this is - as you have pointed out only limited by the speed of the connection. So, there are no limits on the downloading of data, aside from the maximum speed that can be achieved.

N00N00
23-06-2007, 20:13
I can't believe that Virgin/NTL have failed to learn their lesson about false advertising. They have so many ASA adjudications against them.

Some serious action really needs to be taken against them - why can't they just be honest? The broadband service is still a decent enough product, why make false claims?

Bill C
23-06-2007, 20:42
Speed affects quantity, so by limiting speed they also limit quantity.

In one sentence, with STM active even with all technologies working perfectly it is impossible to achieve the maximum throughput over the course of a daily / weekly / monthly period on your service due to STM limiting your connection speed and therefore throughput below this level.

Yes Mr C your speed is reduced if you exceed the amounts set for each connection speed however they will not start charging you for more ;) if you exceed that amount unlike some providers . So therefor i can still download all that i need :)

mondeo
23-06-2007, 21:11
Yes Mr C your speed is reduced if you exceed the amounts set for each connection speed however they will not start charging you for more ;) if you exceed that amount unlike some providers . So therefor i can still download all that i need :)

What other providers do/charge for has no relevance here. Simple selling of an unlimited service, when it clearly has limits is the case put to the ASA. Well that is if people are contacting the ASA, as they should do.

Gareth
23-06-2007, 21:16
Maybe we're all barking up the wrong tree and they're referring to what types of data you can download... even if you're subjected to 4 hours worth of speed restrictions, you can still download any data types that you want. ;)

Seriously, though, the ASA don't seem to live on the same planet as (some of) the rest of us, as they consider it OK to advertise a product as being "unlimited" even if it's patently not so, provided the small print pointing to a Fair Usage Policy is included in any advertisements.

More info... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/13/orange_unlimited_broadband_asa/

Bill C
23-06-2007, 21:16
What other providers do/charge for has no relevance here. Simple selling of an unlimited service, when it clearly has limits is the case put to the ASA. Well that is if people are contacting the ASA, as they should do.

People tend to shout a lot about it but never do it. I would love for them to do it, so we can get it over and done with which ever way it goes. :)

Hugh
23-06-2007, 21:21
I can't believe that Virgin/NTL have failed to learn their lesson about false advertising. They have so many ASA adjudications against them.

Some serious action really needs to be taken against them - why can't they just be honest? The broadband service is still a decent enough product, why make false claims?

Could you please provide links to any ASA adjudications that Virgin Media have had against them? I have tried searching on the net, and can't find any.......

Bill C
23-06-2007, 21:28
Could you please provide links to any ASA adjudications that Virgin Media have had against them? I have tried searching on the net, and can't find any.......

Thats because Virgin Media have not. :LOL:

mondeo
23-06-2007, 21:37
Yes they have.
Well under .net anyway
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=41593

Also note the resolved ones for virgin media
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/Search+TracFusion+Adjudications.htm?qsearch=virgin #results

And Yes I've put mine in:D

Hugh
23-06-2007, 21:49
Good link - so if one searches on Virgin Media
Search (http://www.asa.org.uk/cmsapp/_templates/_asatemplates/_adjudications/search_adjudications.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b3AA6E098-74C2-4936-8CE6-96A3633115B0%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fasa%2fadjudications%2fPublic%2fSe arch%2bTracFusion%2bAdjudications%2ehtm%3fqsearch% 3dvirgin&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest&qsearch=virgin)
you get:-
No Adjudications
Four Informally Resolved Complaints.

By the earlier poster's statements, I presumed there had been a lot of Adjudications against Virgin Media.

mondeo
23-06-2007, 22:51
I think the previous poster was referring to both NTL and Virgin, and together they do mount up;)
I can't believe that Virgin/NTL have failed to learn their lesson about false advertising. They have so many ASA adjudications against them.

Incomplete
23-06-2007, 22:54
So if it is the speed that is being limited, then they are correct in advertising an "upto 20meg" product, as this speed is achievable.

No. When STM'd it is impossible to achieve 20Mbit so it's not accurate. More accurate would be claiming it's up to 20Mbit except when rate limited. In that instance it's no longer 'up to' 20Mbit but up to 5Mbit.

---------- Post added at 21:54 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------

Yes Mr C your speed is reduced if you exceed the amounts set for each connection speed however they will not start charging you for more ;) if you exceed that amount unlike some providers . So therefor i can still download all that i need :)

Still doesn't make it unlimited though even if you can download all you need.

My gran's average usage is next to nothing but it doesn't mean Sky BB's free 2Mbit / 2GB package is unlimited even though it allows her all she needs. :)

Can't think of many providers who charge for excess. Zen come to mind, Metronet and a couple of others on strictly pay as you go services, though it's made very clear they do this.

Anyway thought this was about VM and claims of 'no download limits' so what the competition do or don't do is irrelevant. If Sky recommend jumping off a cliff doesn't make it ok for VM to do so ;)

In my opinion an unlimited service has no set limits and is only subject to a Fair Use Policy. The VM services all have very clearly defined limits built into them, to describe those very set limits as a part of an FUP is ridiculous. They are a bit cap at which point service is throttled. Nothing FUP related about them at all they are a hard bit cap and the service should be very specifically advertised as one where downloading more than those limits results in that action.

Don't get me wrong I dislike all ISPs that have limits like this, transparent or not, and especially Tiscali, just that VM shoot themselves in the foot claiming an unlimited service while having the limits that are on that service on their website.

Let me put it another way. You do not have an unlimited 20Mbit service. You have an unlimited 20Mbit service which becomes unlimited 5Mbit after 3GB between 4PM and midnight. In this respect they can advertise unlimited downloads however their right to describe the service as 'up to' 20Mbit when it's impossible to reach that speed while STM'd becomes dubious.

Personally I'd prefer if they got rid of this 'unlimited' rubbish or did the necessary investment or alternatively stopped with the willy waving exercises with ADSL2+ over speed until the DOCSIS 3 builds are complete when they can leave ADSL2+ in the slipstream and maybe even offer services with no STM ;)

Either way this applies universally there are very few ISPs with the right to advertise unlimited broadband across the board, and VM are certainly not one of them.

homealone
23-06-2007, 23:25
<snip>

Either way this applies universally there are very few ISPs with the right to advertise unlimited broadband across the board, and VM are certainly not one of them.

I couldn't agree more, it is, and probably in the near future at least, will be, a contended service, you know that better than most ;)

So given that we can't all download the internet at full speed at the same time, how do we describe it?

The marketing department seem to always have the upper hand in equity funded companies, unfortunately - the 'tech' guys tend to get ignored, imo ;)

NTLVictim
23-06-2007, 23:45
Oh it's there alright, but being "famous" is again something I never claimed.
But we are again drifting off topic trying to justify previous comments about me.

A simple link then, please?

Hugh
23-06-2007, 23:47
I think the previous poster was referring to both NTL and Virgin, and together they do mount up;)

Erm.....

None for Virgin Media, so difficult for those to "mount up", and for NTL:-
2006 - 3
2005 - 2
2004 - 4

Nine Adjudications in three and a half-years, of which 6 were upheld, and 3 were not - new definition of "so many ASA adjudications against them" I had not come across before :D

And for 2006, the 3 adjudications were -
01-11-2006 Not upheld
15-02-2006 Complaint upheld
04-01-2006 Not upheld

btw, the 04-01-2006 complaint was about a leaflet, enclosed in a mailing, featured two young boys attempting to pull a heavy garden roller and featured the text, "Life's better when you get it together". The complainants were concerned that the image encouraged an unsafe practice, and the one that was upheld was brought by BT about Business Telephone tariffs.

mondeo
24-06-2007, 00:16
A simple link then, please?
Sorry but it's off topic and easy to find anyway, if you really must.

Bill C
24-06-2007, 00:19
A simple link then, please?

That makes 2 of us that cannot find a trace of it :D

Rik
24-06-2007, 00:38
However as i am looking for a job away from Virgin i will soon not be able to comment at all..

I hear Sky have vacancies! ;)

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:28 ----------

That makes 2 of us that cannot find a trace of it :D

Make that 3 :D

Bill C
24-06-2007, 00:44
I hear Sky have vacancies! ;)



:LOL:

Dont temp me :)

TraxData
24-06-2007, 01:17
I hear Sky have vacancies! ;)

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:28 ----------



Make that 3 :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSG_International_plc i think it's fair to say he's been lyin :p

N00N00
24-06-2007, 03:09
Erm.....

None for Virgin Media, so difficult for those to "mount up", and for NTL:-
2006 - 3
2005 - 2
2004 - 4

Nine Adjudications in three and a half-years, of which 6 were upheld, and 3 were not - new definition of "so many ASA adjudications against them" I had not come across before :D



Do you work for NTL's PR department or something?

You've completely ignored at least half the adjudications relating to NTL. There are 18 formal adjudications for a start, not 9.

On top of that in the period 2002-03 almost all the complaints were upheld. There is only one complaint in 2002 and one in 2003 that were totally dismissed. Every other adjudication in that period went against them in some way.

There can't be many companies on the planet with so many adjudications against them.

Alsot there are all the informally resolved complaints , plus we should count the lessons learned from all telewest's adjudications as that is part of the company now.

Everyone knows NTL love to mislead in their advertising, and for you to suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous. You've totally ignored all the more serious adjudications against them, I can only guess you are a relatively new customer and didn't realise exactly what sort of a company they are and how appalling their track record is in this area.

Bill C
24-06-2007, 09:01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSG_International_plc i think it's fair to say he's been lyin :p

I just cannot find anything on the net about DSG being dragged to there knee's or even just there elbow's

Toto
24-06-2007, 09:01
Oh it's there alright, but being "famous" is again something I never claimed.
But we are again drifting off topic trying to justify previous comments about me.

Go on, go wild, one little off topic post, prove most of us wrong who think you may be over inflating your complaints prowess, give us a link.

And you can thank me later for bringing this post back on topic and adding two pages worth of debate since my post yesterday morning. :)

Bill C
24-06-2007, 09:04
Go on, go wild, one little off topic post, prove most of us wrong who think you may be over inflating your complaints prowess, give us a link.

And you can thank me later for bringing this post back on topic and adding two pages worth od debate since my post yesterday morning. :)

:tu:

Hugh
24-06-2007, 09:29
Do you work for NTL's PR department or something?

You've completely ignored at least half the adjudications relating to NTL. There are 18 formal adjudications for a start, not 9.

On top of that in the period 2002-03 almost all the complaints were upheld. There is only one complaint in 2002 and one in 2003 that were totally dismissed. Every other adjudication in that period went against them in some way.

There can't be many companies on the planet with so many adjudications against them.

Alsot there are all the informally resolved complaints , plus we should count the lessons learned from all telewest's adjudications as that is part of the company now.

Everyone knows NTL love to mislead in their advertising, and for you to suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous. You've totally ignored all the more serious adjudications against them, I can only guess you are a relatively new customer and didn't realise exactly what sort of a company they are and how appalling their track record is in this area.
I have no link to VM, other than as a customer (of it and it's predecessors) since 1995, but nice try with the unfounded accusations.

I try and find out the truth (based on research), rather than just make emotive statements; if you read my posts on this thread, I have not attacked or defended VM, just supplied figures.

Once again, if you read my post fully, you would have seen I said 9 in the last 3.5 years, not nine in total; I got my figures from the ASA website; and you seem to confuse Adjudications with Adjudications Upheld - almost a third of the 18 over the last 5 years were not upheld.

Once again - I am not in VM PR; just someone who prefers facts to innuendo; re your statement in post #70 "I can't believe that Virgin/NTL have failed to learn their lesson about false advertising. They have so many ASA adjudications against them." - after searching extensively, I still couldn't find any Adjudications against Virgin Media on the ASA website.

btw, you state "Everyone knows NTL love to mislead in their advertising," - can't say I've seen many NTL ads lately ;), and you are using the present tense.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 09:39
after searching extensively, I still couldn't find any Adjudications against Virgin Media on the ASA website.

The ASA have only recently taken up their current role as to advertising complaints, before that it was Ofcom. There might be something in their archives.

mondeo
24-06-2007, 10:02
:LOL:
I find it highly amusing that you guys are willing to go to so much effort to prove your point and justify your comments.
You can poke fun and say I'm "lyin" all you like. I and many 1000's of other people know different, and some are even watching this thread with great amusement. They may come along and post, but I'm not going to ask them to, just to keep you happy.
:notopic:

Bill C
24-06-2007, 10:12
:LOL:
I find it highly amusing that you guys are willing to go to so much effort to prove your point and justify your comments.
You can poke fun and say I'm "lyin" all you like. I and many 1000's of other people know different, and some are even watching this thread with great amusement. They may come along and post, but I'm not going to ask them to, just to keep you happy.
:notopic:

And i find it amusing that your so called evidence is so hard to find considering that 1000's of people know about it. But hey the Americans cannot keep there Nuclear weapons info secret so your little secret might come out in the end if not i suggest you pass on your knowledge to the Americans :LOL:

I think the admins at CF need to widen their door frames :)

I think you will find that users on this forum like to see posters substantiate there posts when asked to. I for one take posters post with a pinch of salt if they refuse to substantiated a post.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 10:19
It must be a secret....

Hugh
24-06-2007, 10:22
Careful, he will bring us to our knees............

mondeo
24-06-2007, 10:28
:LOL:
Come on guys, I'm sure you can do better than that.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 10:40
So post one link and prove us all wrong.

Bill C
24-06-2007, 10:41
So post one link and prove us all wrong.

Never Going to happen as there is no link :disturbd:

Cobbydaler
24-06-2007, 10:52
Really. If you would like to contact DSG HQ and discuss it with them, I am more than happy for you to do so. If you would like to mention the following, they will soon know who I am
1/ Audio Dream
2/ Sacked PC world Employee (not me by the way, never worked for them)
3/ File limitations and product description
4/ Hackers trying to crash sites and PC
5/ 1000's of customers getting refunds, that were refused before I took action.
6/ Me accessing their network through open systems and tracing hackers from their company.
7/ Apologies from HQ management.

Can't be arsed giving you the full story, but it is all over the net if you look;)

PS: DSG ltd Are Dixsons Store Group Ltd AKA PC world and Currys etc

Perhaps it's this (http://forum.packardbell.com/en/viewtopic.php?t=27127&view=next&sid=ce386dc24dd744ce2d8108983c01225f) story? :shrug:

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 10:59
I brought Tefal "to their knees" once..and, I can post a LINK! :D
(http://www.lifeandshopping.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=486)

Bill C
24-06-2007, 11:48
I brought Tefal "to their knees" once..and, I can post a LINK! :D
(http://www.lifeandshopping.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=486)

Thanks for the info. So nice when evidence is presented to backup a claim :)

I helped in a small way to bring a whole country to its knee's once but it's nothing compared to the DSG group :LOL:

Oh and heres the link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War)

iglu
24-06-2007, 12:01
Here ? (http://forum.packardbell.com/en/viewtopic.php?t=28049&view=previous&sid=a2c7b6886774bbe33df4834ebae4b52a) he said around 21 January 2005, AND Audio Dream AND DSG

Bill C
24-06-2007, 12:08
Here ? (http://forum.packardbell.com/en/viewtopic.php?t=28049&view=previous&sid=a2c7b6886774bbe33df4834ebae4b52a) he said around 21 January 2005, AND Audio Dream AND DSG

Could be :tu:

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 12:09
A few trolls does not a great conflict make.

iglu
24-06-2007, 12:13
Is this (http://www.chrishoggy.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/) his Mondeo?

Bill C
24-06-2007, 12:18
A few trolls does not a great conflict make.

Indeed its hardly bringing a company to its knee's is it.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 12:20
Was all that damage done in PC World's car park?

Bill C
24-06-2007, 12:27
Here ? (http://forum.packardbell.com/en/viewtopic.php?t=28049&view=previous&sid=a2c7b6886774bbe33df4834ebae4b52a) he said around 21 January 2005, AND Audio Dream AND DSG

In fact the saying Mountain out of a mole hill comes to mind :LOL:

mondeo
24-06-2007, 12:34
You have now found one of the many 100's of links regarding the audiodream and in a small way, the DSG hacker story.
"lyin" was I?
links don't exist?
At least someone with a brain looked and found it with great ease.
Now go knock yourselves out and find the rest of it. After all there is around 40 sites that covered the story in one form or another.

As for the gulf war link, well I've done my bit for the country too (ex REME).
I also hold the highest examination pass score for REME examination, I have photographs published all over the world and I manage local education networks. Care to prove me wrong on any of these too:rolleyes::rolleyes:

PS: Quality virgin connection is down yet again. Talk about limited service:LOL:

Toto
24-06-2007, 12:41
Here ? (http://forum.packardbell.com/en/viewtopic.php?t=28049&view=previous&sid=a2c7b6886774bbe33df4834ebae4b52a) he said around 21 January 2005, AND Audio Dream AND DSG

That could be it.

---------- Post added at 11:41 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

You have now found one of the many 100's of links regarding the audiodream and in a small way, the DSG hacker story.
"lyin" was I?
links don't exist?
At least someone with a brain looked and found it with great ease.
Now go knock yourselves out and find the rest of it. After all there is around 40 sites that covered the story in one form or another.

As for the gulf war link, well I've done my bit for the country too (ex REME).
I also hold the highest examination pass score for REME examination, I have photographs published all over the world and I manage local education networks. Care to prove me wrong on any of these too:rolleyes::rolleyes:

PS: Quality virgin connection is down yet again. Talk about limited service:LOL:

No, but make sure you wipe the spittle out of that trumpet valve. Glad you made it back alive.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 12:44
At least someone with a brain looked and found it with great ease.

So why didn't you just post the link in the first place?:erm:

Ah..I see you manage local education networks, does that mean you don't know how to?:p:

Incomplete
24-06-2007, 12:45
Well it went wildly off topic but at least it's now agreed there are limits on the service, even if it doesn't affect some people / some people don't care / some people are fine with it / whatever :)

dev
24-06-2007, 12:52
PS: Quality virgin connection is down yet again. Talk about limited service:LOL:

down yet posting? marvelous! also an outage doesn't mean it's a limited service.

iglu
24-06-2007, 12:55
I have photographs published all over the world

Here (http://photohospital.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)

Bill C
24-06-2007, 12:56
You have now found one of the many 100's of links regarding the audiodream and in a small way, the DSG hacker story.
"lyin" was I?
links don't exist?
At least someone with a brain looked and found it with great ease.
Now go knock yourselves out and find the rest of it. After all there is around 40 sites that covered the story in one form or another.

As for the gulf war link, well I've done my bit for the country too (ex REME).
I also hold the highest examination pass score for REME examination, I have photographs published all over the world and I manage local education networks. Care to prove me wrong on any of these too:rolleyes::rolleyes:

PS: Quality virgin connection is down yet again. Talk about limited service:LOL:

OMG This mans a network god Run for the hills




Not to self

Remember to ask the Admins to make the doors bigger for this poster

End note.

mondeo
24-06-2007, 12:57
yes it has been dragged off topic by a select few, but it has now been shown as a limited service.

As to why I didn't post a link. I've no reason to prove myself to a select few members who want to post stupid personal comments.

dev
24-06-2007, 12:58
yes it has been dragged off topic by a select few, but it has now been shown as a limited service.

where?

Bill C
24-06-2007, 13:02
where?

:rofl::rofl:

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 13:06
:LOL:
Come on guys, I'm sure you can do better than that.

...So we did.

Ask, and ye shall receive.....:D

Hugh
24-06-2007, 13:29
Thanks for the info. So nice when evidence is presented to backup a claim :)

I helped in a small way to bring a whole country to its knee's once but it's nothing compared to the DSG group :LOL:

Oh and heres the link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War)

Light-weights ;)

Bringing a chain-store group and a country to their knees - thinking small.

I brought down an Evil Empire :sniper: , and introduced democracy to the Warsaw Pact countries :ghugs: link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_Soviet_Union)

(when I say "I", I obviously don't just mean myself - the other members of the NATO armed forces, and the politicians and business people of the Western democracies, and the popular upsurge of democracy in the Soviet Union and it's allies, all had their own small part to play)

mondeo
24-06-2007, 13:32
:LOL:
NTLVictim: No you didn't. You couldn't find the info that even my 9 yo found easily. And even then the info found is limited.
It's amusing that you found my background so interesting, and that you have spent ages trying to find out about me.
iglu : No thats my site, not where my images have been published. Try in Tokyo, Oz, USA and Spain to name a few. Then try some London based advertising agencies for more local stuff.

As for posting while my connection was down. Well I have many ways of posting. This connection is only one of them, as it is now back online.

Let's just remember the only people to get all excited about what I have done in the past is you guys. I made no fuss about it, or even tried to show it off to you (hence no links).

mondeo
24-06-2007, 15:35
Just a Quick PS:
Our friendly member from Camberley area can now stop trying to access the private files on my site. You will not get in, neither will you find any robot.txt files that will list my directories. Nice try, but I'm afraid you will have to try a lot harder than that. And if you do, I will just forward your IP (and all the logs of you trying) to VM abuse department.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 16:27
:LOL:
NTLVictim: No you didn't. You couldn't find the info that even my 9 yo found easily.



You should have let him show you how to post it, then.

"And even then the info found is limited."..so where's the heavy stuff then, big man?

And who uses robots.txt files as their mainstay these days? If you are grandstanding and inviting a hack attack, I would tread carefully..be careful what you wish for.

iglu
24-06-2007, 16:36
Just a Quick PS:
Our friendly member from Camberley area can now stop trying to access the private files on my site. You will not get in, neither will you find any robot.txt files that will list my directories. Nice try, but I'm afraid you will have to try a lot harder than that. And if you do, I will just forward your IP (and all the logs of you trying) to VM abuse department.


I merely clicked the links you supplied on various public forums. Some of the links were dead, for example on your "mondeo" site. I did not look for any private files...:rolleyes:

Gareth
24-06-2007, 16:53
What exactly has all this got to do with whether VM (and other ISPs) are guilty of false advertising by claiming their service is unlimited?

mondeo
24-06-2007, 17:04
You should have let him show you how to post it, then.

"And even then the info found is limited."..so where's the heavy stuff then, big man?

And who uses robots.txt files as their mainstay these days? If you are grandstanding and inviting a hack attack, I would tread carefully..be careful what you wish for.

Go look for it, it's all there in google.

As for who uses robots.txt's , not me. But the user trying to crack my site thought I did. 86.17.***.*** traced and logged via my site admin abuse notification service.

I'm not asking for one, I was getting the starts of one, and this thread is the referring url. So does anybody wish to confess to messing about, or shall I just Email the logs off to VM showing a hack attempt 24/Jun/2007:11:05:23 +0100 onward ?
Let's see, what would let you know I've got the proof.
Well at 24/Jun/2007:11:08:41 +0100 the user tried gaining access to the downloads directory. He/she used firefox on an XP system on an Ex NTL account coming from Camberley, nr Guildford.
Admit it, and I will drop it.

Iglu: I'm not talking missing urls. I'm talking deliberate attemts to gain access. I don't know of any site where I have posted links to a robots.txt , mainly because I have NEVER used one.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 17:09
Go look for it, it's all there in google.




So we are all blind and stupid. So enlighten us. We obviously need help.

Bill C
24-06-2007, 17:20
So we are all blind and stupid. So enlighten us. We obviously need help.

What did i say.

A network God

run for the hills we are all doomed.

:LOL:

mondeo
24-06-2007, 17:27
Bill C
:rolleyes::o:
Mockery is the lowest form of wit, and usually used to hide inadequacies.

So we are all blind and stupid. So enlighten us. We obviously need help.

You said there were no links, yet other members found them easy enough. So I wouldn't like to comment.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 17:45
SARCASM is the lowest form of wit, at least get the quote straight.

There are links that have been posted referring to a couple of forums, and a link to a photo page that doesn't load properly in Firefox (which is web standard).

Why won't you post this big link, big man?

JohnHorb
24-06-2007, 17:49
Just a Quick PS:
Our friendly member from Camberley area can now stop trying to access the private files on my site. You will not get in, neither will you find any robot.txt files that will list my directories. Nice try, but I'm afraid you will have to try a lot harder than that. And if you do, I will just forward your IP (and all the logs of you trying) to VM abuse department.

Speaking of the Abuse department - a quote from this site's T&Cs:-

"You acknowledge and accept that if you are banned from use of the CF web site, you will not in any way attempt to re-register using any other name or identity not known to us, or any other email address not known to us. If you do so, we will pursue the maximum penalty available under your Internet Service Providers’s Acceptable Use Policy."

iglu
24-06-2007, 18:02
Go look for it, it's all there in google.

As for who uses robots.txt's , not me. But the user trying to crack my site thought I did. 86.17.***.*** traced and logged via my site admin abuse notification service.

I'm not asking for one, I was getting the starts of one, and this thread is the referring url. So does anybody wish to confess to messing about, or shall I just Email the logs off to VM showing a hack attempt 24/Jun/2007:11:05:23 +0100 onward ?
Let's see, what would let you know I've got the proof.
Well at 24/Jun/2007:11:08:41 +0100 the user tried gaining access to the downloads directory. He/she used firefox on an XP system on an Ex NTL account coming from Camberley, nr Guildford.
Admit it, and I will drop it.

Iglu: I'm not talking missing urls. I'm talking deliberate attemts to gain access. I don't know of any site where I have posted links to a robots.txt , mainly because I have NEVER used one.

You published your "downloads directory"'s URL

here! (http://forum.packardbell.com/en/search.php?search_id=1669794515&start=4515)

(second message) I just clicked on it, hardly a "hacking" l33t move mate. Your downloads directory link is all over the place

Toto
24-06-2007, 18:09
What exactly has all this got to do with whether VM (and other ISPs) are guilty of false advertising by claiming their service is unlimited?

Gareth, read up, and sit back and have a right old chuckle, this guy is priceless.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 18:11
Gareth, read up, and sit back and have a right old chuckle, this guy is priceless.

What he said.:D

mondeo
24-06-2007, 18:19
:LOL:
And if you want to quote forum terms, try these.
You agree that you will not:

Provoke others or cause trouble. If you wish to argue with people then go to instant messenger or email.
Make personal attacks on anyone during your use of the forum. Do not abuse someone for example, because of their race, colour, sex, or religious beliefs.
Reignite inflammatory threads by creating new threads after existing threads on the same topic have been closed.
Use excessive and unnecessary use of bad language.
Attempt to take threads off-topic or make off-topic posts within threads. Off topic posts may be removed at our discretion. The section marked as a designated “off-topic” area is more relaxed on off-topic posts.
Argue a moderators decision publicly. Any and all complaints directed at a moderating decision should first be addressed to the moderator in question via private message. If the problem can not be resolved, then You should state Your position to the webmasters, who will make or change any and/or all final decisions on a democratic basis.
Reproduce messages sent using the forum Private Messaging function on the forum or anywhere else without permission from the sender, unless requested to by an administrator for site administration purposes.
Have a signature larger than 300px wide by 100px high. If your signature is larger than the allotted size given, you will be requested by a moderator to resize your image. Failing to append your signature when requested to by a member of Our staff will result in the removal of your signature. Signatures may not contain adverts of any sort unless previously agreed by Us. Please also keep text signatures under 4 lines.
Provide links to third party web sites or content unless given express permission to do so by a moderator or administrator. The exception to this condition is links which are shown to be relevant to any discussion taking place will be permitted within the context of that discussion. We may remove third party links at any time with or without explanation.
Flame the Virgin Media staff or technicians in the support sections of the CF forum. In other sections of the forum normal rules apply in accordance with these Terms and Conditions. Abusive posts will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 18:35
So you can cut and paste...so now cut and paste the link to the kneecapping you gave to DSG.

mondeo
24-06-2007, 18:44
Imaginations are running wild again I see:dozey:

Don't think I ever said that.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 18:46
Correct, you said "Brought DSG to their knees." So now show us the link.

Toto
24-06-2007, 18:48
Oh can't we leave this now, there is too much grandstanding going on. This guy is not going to give up comparing us to his 9 year old who can obviously search better than we do.

I'm not convinced, not many on here are either....and if it were true, does it really matter.

Worst still if we allow it to get personal, I can see VM's abuse department having to work overtime just cause a guy can read web server logs, and to be honest, they are probably snowed under with more important issues.

Even worse, is that a few people get warned by the administrators, :)

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 18:52
True, he's not worth the time anyway..

I'm off to bring a bottle of scotch to its knees!

iglu
24-06-2007, 18:55
:dig: garden cable :devsmoke:

Toto
24-06-2007, 18:55
True, he's not worth the time anyway..

I'm off to bring a bottle of scotch to its knees!

I'll drink to that. Theres a 12 yo Glenmorangie desperate to have its seal broken :)

mondeo
24-06-2007, 18:56
Oh can't we leave this now, there is too much grandstanding going on. This guy is not going to give up comparing us to his 9 year old who can obviously search better than we do.

I'm not convinced, not many on here are either....and if it were true, does it really matter.

Worst still if we allow it to get personal, I can see VM's abuse department having to work overtime just cause a guy can read web server logs, and to be honest, they are probably snowed under with more important issues.

Even worse, is that a few people get warned by the administrators,

Well that has to be the most sensible response to date.

Doesn't matter to me who believes what, but it must to others.

:dig: garden cable :devsmoke:

Yeah right, what ever.

iglu
24-06-2007, 19:06
Yeah right, what ever.

I was not sarcastic, please think about it, in fact I was supportive. I was simply referring to your desire to dig your garden.;) (no answer is required)

Bill C
24-06-2007, 19:15
Well that has to be the most sensible response to date.

Doesn't matter to me who believes what, but it must to others.



Yeah right, what ever.

Geez

You still here and here was me thinking there must be another company out there waiting to be smashed down to its knee's and you would have changed into your superuser suit and gone off to do battle with them ?

mondeo
24-06-2007, 19:22
I know you care really.:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Why else would you have gone to all that trouble, egged others on and pestered so much for links.

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 19:26
I know you care really.:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Why else would you have gone to all that trouble, egged others on and pestered so much for links.

Which you can't supply.

Bye bye.

Bill C
24-06-2007, 19:27
I know you care really.:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Why else would you have gone to all that trouble, egged others on and pestered so much for links.

Well at least your little green pip as not gone red yet. However without links that might change as the drink starts to bite :)

JackSon
24-06-2007, 19:42
Off topic, this is freaking me out, Bill. Visited 3 pages of this thread in as many minutes, and your avatar has been different in every one! Had to use back button to make sure I'm not going insane

Leeds_Tykes_RFU
24-06-2007, 19:54
Off topic, this is freaking me out, Bill. Visited 3 pages of this thread in as many minutes, and your avatar has been different in every one! Had to use back button to make sure I'm not going insane

If he doesn't put back the Amanda Tapping one, I'm gonna stop reading what he posts. And leave VM, cause er, everyone else is. :rolleyes:

JackSon
24-06-2007, 19:58
Do retentions offer Amanda Tapping posters? Perhaps they ought to, gonna ring 'em...

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 20:00
Have you got the one where the flag slipped?

Bill C
24-06-2007, 20:03
If he doesn't put back the Amanda Tapping one, I'm gonna stop reading what he posts. And leave VM, cause er, everyone else is. :rolleyes:your wish is my command



oh and mondeo, Say BYE BYE

Leeds_Tykes_RFU
24-06-2007, 20:05
Nice one . Gotta love VM :p:

Bill C
24-06-2007, 20:05
Have you got the one where the flag slipped?

Nearly

http://venus.provocateuse.com/show/amanda_tapping

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 20:08
Nearly

http://venus.provocateuse.com/show/amanda_tapping

Medic.....:Yikes:

N00N00
24-06-2007, 20:14
I have no link to VM, other than as a customer (of it and it's predecessors) since 1995, but nice try with the unfounded accusations.

I try and find out the truth (based on research), rather than just make emotive statements; if you read my posts on this thread, I have not attacked or defended VM, just supplied figures.

The only person making unfounded accusations here and posting half truths is yourself. If you call ignoring most of the evidence "research" then you're either stupid or taking the mick.


Once again, if you read my post fully, you would have seen I said 9 in the last 3.5 years, not nine in total; I got my figures from the ASA website; and you seem to confuse Adjudications with Adjudications Upheld - almost a third of the 18 over the last 5 years were not upheld.
So what you're now saying is that most of them were in fact upheld.

Once again - I am not in VM PR; just someone who prefers facts to innuendo; re your statement in post #70 "I can't believe that Virgin/NTL have failed to learn their lesson about false advertising. They have so many ASA adjudications against them." - after searching extensively, I still couldn't find any Adjudications against Virgin Media on the ASA website.

Don't be so silly. Virgin media have hardly been in existence for any length of time. It takes a good while after an advertisment has been release for the complaint to be made and processed and then ages to obtain and response and then consider the evidence. There are many stages to the process and it is almost impossible for there to be a adjudication to be in that name. NTL/Telewest/ Virgin - it's all the same company now. If you can't even understand that I was talking about the company as a whole (rather than whatever particular name they happen to be using this month) then there's no hope for you whatsoever.

To talk about liking facts so much is laughable coming from someone who chose to ignore almost all the most important ones in his previous post. Very few companies have so many adjudications upheld against them and NTL /Virgin should have learned their lesson by now. It isn't exactly a controversial thing to say is it?

The ASA should really have taken action against them by now and if they don't learn their lesson soon I'm sure they will face sanctions.

Bill C
24-06-2007, 20:21
Medic.....:Yikes:

Indeed

Hugh
24-06-2007, 20:26
Oooooh - that's me told off right properly. ;)

So far, I'm "either stupid or taking the mick" and "so silly" and "laughable" and "no hope for me whatsoever". :dunce:

I am going to find a dark corner, and cry myself to sleep, now.:sulk:

Could be worse, I could have a throbbing vein in my forehead, like some of the posters :D

JackSon
24-06-2007, 20:28
Could be worse, I could have a throbbing vein in my forehead, like some of the posters :D

I think NTL_Victim's throbbing vein is elsewhere :Yikes:

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 20:30
So far, I'm "either stupid or taking the mick" and "so silly" and "laughable".



All attributes that equate to "harmless"..not a bad thing to strive for!:D

Toto
24-06-2007, 20:31
Nearly

http://venus.provocateuse.com/show/amanda_tapping

Oh sweet mother, I think I just died. !!!!:Yikes:

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 20:31
I think NTL_Victim's throbbing vein is elsewhere :Yikes:


MATRON!!!

Bill C
24-06-2007, 20:42
Oooooh - that's me told off right properly. ;)

So far, I'm "either stupid or taking the mick" and "so silly" and "laughable" and "no hope for me whatsoever". :dunce:

I am going to find a dark corner, and cry myself to sleep, now.:sulk:

Could be worse, I could have a throbbing vein in my forehead, like some of the posters :D

Hey i was called a child and a slop jockey the other night :LOL:

child i can except , Slop jockey is below the belt.

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:31 ----------

Hey Chris you still here or are you rocking back and too in the corner mumbling:mis:

Hugh
24-06-2007, 20:51
Nearly
http://venus.provocateuse.com/show/amanda_tapping
I do like a well-equipped explorer, don't you? ;)

Good find, that man!

Bill C
24-06-2007, 20:53
I do like a well-equipped explorer, don't you? ;)

Good find, that man!

Why thank you :

punky
24-06-2007, 20:56
Back on topic now please gentlemen :)

Bill C
24-06-2007, 21:01
Back on topic now please gentlemen :)

Sorry an adult told me to do it :)

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 21:11
Back on topic now please gentlemen :)

He must have a heart of concrete......

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Oh look, mondeo's gone..how ever did that happen?

OK, OK back on topic...which was??

Bill C
24-06-2007, 21:18
He must have a heart of concrete......

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Oh look, mondeo's gone..how ever did that happen?


Someone found out he voted Labour :LOL:

iglu
24-06-2007, 21:21
He must have a heart of concrete......

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Oh look, mondeo's gone..how ever did that happen?

OK, OK back on topic...which was??

He was telling us all along to look for links, and yes one of the links was CF, his previous name here was chrishoggy as in every other forum (but I did not report it)

May I suggest that this thread gets closed? It has gone well beyond off topic.

homealone
24-06-2007, 21:21
I think Dezzo had it right here

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34333820-post3.html

;)

NTLVictim
24-06-2007, 21:24
Ah well, he helped pass a wet Sunday..I couldn't get into the garden, and I can't tile behind the new bath until the mortar substrate goes off, and today's lunch virtually immobilised me...Oh, back on topic, yessssah!

Mick
24-06-2007, 21:26
Sage advice as always Gaz. :)

Thread closed.