Employment law, sick lines

[pixiequeen]

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could help me, my sister was recently off work with an ongoing problem, it is only the second time she has been off in a year and she got a doctors note for the 6 days she was absent.

Her work is going to give her a written warning because of it, is this legal? I thought that a doctor’s note meant that you were covered!

Any help would be much appreciated as she is freaking out about it and I can’t seem to find anything about it on the net.

Thanks Pixie Queen

[peanut]

Welcome for starters. :)

I think different employers have different rules, so I'm not sure of the legality side of it. I know about certain companies whereby you can't be sick twice in one year, 3 times and you could be out. It might be wise to check the contract and go from there.

It does sounds bad, and it's a shame employers are being this strict but its becoming the norm these days.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Moved from Virgin Media "General Discussion" forum



:welcome:



It certainly doesn't sound right to me! I do not see how an employer can give a written warning for absence due to illness.

Also, even if they could, surely they should follow a proper disciplinary procedure & issue a formal verbal warning first?


I strongly advise you get your sister to go down to her nearest Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB), & ask for their help.

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/


Only fact sheet I've found so far on the CAB site regarding illness is this:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/e_sickness_at_work.pdf

[Chris W]

Did she follow the company's absence reporting procedure?

It happens often with my staff that they have a valid reason for being off, but because they don't following the absence reporting procedure (in our case, to call me at least 2 hours before the start of the shift) then they end up getting disciplined. It is possible to go straight to a written warning for this- especially if it has happened previously and disciplinary action was not taken.

[Chrysalis]

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could help me, my sister was recently off work with an ongoing problem, it is only the second time she has been off in a year and she got a doctors note for the 6 days she was absent.

Her work is going to give her a written warning because of it, is this legal? I thought that a doctor’s note meant that you were covered!

Any help would be much appreciated as she is freaking out about it and I can’t seem to find anything about it on the net.

Thanks Pixie Queen

Its legal but I think very immoral, unfortenatly the current workplace culture punishes time off work genuine or not they seem to assume you taking the mick unless proven otherwise. Seems harsh for a second time during the year if there is an appeals procedure I strongly advise to follow it through.

[Anonymouse]

Rubbish! If you have a sick note, the employer is obliged to accept it. On what grounds can they refuse it? Since when do they have a medical degree? How are they qualified to argue with a licensed medical practitioner?!

The Employment Act forbids penalising workers for being off sick. So does the Human Rights Act, IIRC. Being off sick twice in a year is well within the acceptable boundaries even at my place of work. :Yikes:

No. A written warning for this is entirely out of order. If she receives one, she can sue the living crap out of them.

Is she in a union? If so, the union solicitor should be contacted. But I doubt this would even get as far as ACAS. I'd also suggest she contacts her doctor, as they seem to be implying the note isn't genuine - at least that would be one legal interpretation of their actions. I imagine/hope s/he'll be furious.

Bloody employers - when did the timeslip back to the 19th Century occur? We've got protective legislation, the Health & Safety at Work Act, the Working Time Regulations - where have they BEEN?!

Let us know how she gets on. This is a diabolical liberty.

[TheNorm]

Rubbish! If you have a sick note, the employer is obliged to accept it. On what grounds can they refuse it? Since when do they have a medical degree? How are they qualified to argue with a licensed medical practitioner?!...

I don't think the OP suggested the employer was doubting the veracity of the sick note.

Just suppose an employee had been off sick for a year (it happens, believe me). Are you saying this person's wages should continue to be paid? What if the illness continues for another year?

Employers have to draw the line somewhere.

[AntiSilence]

Employers have to draw the line somewhere.

Yes, they do. But not at twice in one year, especially if covered by a sick note.

[cnewton2k]

Rubbish! If you have a sick note, the employer is obliged to accept it. On what grounds can they refuse it? Since when do they have a medical degree? How are they qualified to argue with a licensed medical practitioner?!

The Employment Act forbids penalising workers for being off sick. So does the Human Rights Act, IIRC. Being off sick twice in a year is well within the acceptable boundaries even at my place of work. :Yikes:

No. A written warning for this is entirely out of order. If she receives one, she can sue the living crap out of them.

Is she in a union? If so, the union solicitor should be contacted. But I doubt this would even get as far as ACAS. I'd also suggest she contacts her doctor, as they seem to be implying the note isn't genuine - at least that would be one legal interpretation of their actions. I imagine/hope s/he'll be furious.

Bloody employers - when did the timeslip back to the 19th Century occur? We've got protective legislation, the Health & Safety at Work Act, the Working Time Regulations - where have they BEEN?!

Let us know how she gets on. This is a diabolical liberty.


This is rubbish, i have just been in a simalar situation, i was signed of by the dr etc with a valid sick note but because i had gone over what the comapany class as accept sickness i was given a verbal warning.

Now @ this point i rang ACAS (08457 474747) and i was told by them that because it was the companies policy there wasnt nothing i could do about it.

The company have doen nothing wrong in the eyes of the law and most companies will follow ACAS guide lines when draft absence policies.

[Ramrod]

Bloody employers Yep, the bastewards! Going round employing people, paying wages, providing jobs! Gits, eh? :D

[awibble]

It comes from that lovely department we all know and love... HR

They have their system, and god forgive anyone that doesnt follow it.

She might find that if she goes and talk to them, then they will clear it up.

I know of one person who had cancer, he went off work for a few weeks, and whenever he was feeling upto it, he would go in. Even tho it was a re-occuring problem and basically the same thing, they disapline him for been off too many times, as they class each one as a seperate thing.

He complained to HR and they cleared it up, as it tends to be partly automated.

[Vlad_Dracul]

Most Employers have policies and procedures for dealing with this and other matters. She needs to ask to see the company policy for dealing with sickness/absence etc.
Hopefully they will have one though i dont think they are obliged to have one.

If they do have one and she has been treated in accordance with that document then thats it.

If they dont have one then they can presumably judge each case on its own merits. If that is the case then the best thing for her to do is either make a well thought out written representation to the manager/HR department or else seek a meeting with the manager/HR

It may well be that if its a small company,that none of the above will apply.

Either way, if you are not attending work becuase you are unfit for work then potentially,you are in breach of your contract of employment and could therefore be open to disciplinary procedure.

The whole issue about a doctors note is a completely separate issue. For instance, if i became gravely ill and had doctor certification, it is likely that after due course,i would be deemed to be unable to work/fullfill my contract and would therefore be retired/dismissed. Its a simple matter of contract.

Employers are not obliged to continue your emplyment/pay you for being off sick simply becuase you have a doctors note.

[superbiatch]

It sounds as though she maybe hasn't followed reporting procedures. Some rules from ours is you phone in before 10am the day you're off sick, you also have to ring in any non-certified day (basically up to day 7 as you'd need a sick note anyway after that) confiming you are still off sick.

Sorry, but this is making me want to rant and get something off my chest :rant:

We have a member of staff who abuses our sick policy. The NHS for some reason give you 6 months full pay (for continued sickness) once you reach 5 years service. A member of our staff who is very knowledgable about staff benefits (and anything in life that benefits her) and has just gone off sick yet again. She only returned in November literally to the day she was due to go on half pay. Because she has now worked with only a few short occasions off (about 8!) since then, she has now worked up enough sick leave to have another 6 months off on full pay.

Because she is off with 'stress', HR will not touch her. This has been going on for about 7 years now - although not quite to the degree it is now. It seems she likes to have the whole summer off and return during winter months. Unfortunately this causes bad feeling in our office and staff morale is yet again at an all-time low, my manager is threatening to put a grievance in against HR but i advised her against this as i feel she'd be the one who came off worse.

This is the kind of person who should be receiving warnings although they just don't seem to be willing to take her on :erm:

Sorry to hijack your thread, i feel better for that :)

[andygrif]

Hi, I was just wondering if anyone could help me, my sister was recently off work with an ongoing problem, it is only the second time she has been off in a year and she got a doctors note for the 6 days she was absent.

Her work is going to give her a written warning because of it, is this legal? I thought that a doctor’s note meant that you were covered!

Any help would be much appreciated as she is freaking out about it and I can’t seem to find anything about it on the net.

Thanks Pixie Queen

I can't add anything more than other posters have said (some more factual than others).

The only other thing to bear in mind is that you're only getting one side of the story. I know she's your sister, and I am certainly not accusing her of anything at all, but sometimes people do not give the whole picture when telling you about something. We only have her word for it that nothing else has gone on within the company that might have led to this situation and we don't have the conversation that accompanied the warning either.

Generally written warnings don't happen without a one-to-one meeting to discuss the problem before the warning is issued, so if her case is complelling enough not to have been issued with the warning, why was this not taken into account during the meeting?

Finally, if she genuinely feels that she has been tarred with the incorrect brush here, then I would imagine that her company will have a grievance proceedure that she can put her complaint to.

[Florence]

After a fall at work I have tried to return a few times but due to my injured knee repeatedly swelling up when I am standing or walking too much I have been off work a lot. I was called in for a meeting and could soon end up out of a job. The Union said this is what happens with local authority employees a lot now if off for too long. I am having physio now on the knee but this doesn't alter the fact I might be out of work before physio has finished.

[brownma-s]

I am a new user, so forgive me if I send this to the wrong place. I need advice on sick lines. If a doctors sick line states advise that you refrain from work from e.g. 23/09/08 to 29/09/08 what date would or should the employee return to work?

[Russ]

Not wishing to sound like I'm stating the obvious or anything but should it not be the soonest working day after the 'clearance' date?

[smeagoly1]

yes the doctors cert is only valid till midnight on the final day stated. You have to return to work as normal the first working day after that. Unless your still not ok, then book another doctors appointment on the last days of the sick note.

[SMHarman]

I don't think the OP suggested the employer was doubting the veracity of the sick note.

Just suppose an employee had been off sick for a year (it happens, believe me). Are you saying this person's wages should continue to be paid? What if the illness continues for another year?

Employers have to draw the line somewhere.No they don't they go onto Statutory Sick Pay at fifty odd quid a week. If the employer is small enough this is reimbursed through a reduction in the amount of PAYE they send to HMRC (so if say the payroll resulted in PAYE deductions of 1,000 to go to HMRC they would only need to send 950).

[Bex]

No they don't they go onto Statutory Sick Pay at fifty odd quid a week. If the employer is small enough this is reimbursed through a reduction in the amount of PAYE they send to HMRC (so if say the payroll resulted in PAYE deductions of 1,000 to go to HMRC they would only need to send 950).

SSP (stat sick pay) lasts for 28 weeks then you can request a SSP1 form and claim more money from the government! and SSP is also related to how much NIC you have paid within the year, if you have not paid enough national insurance to reach the earnings threshold then you are not entitled to SSP.

wilth regards to the original poster - most companies sickness policies allow you to have, at least, 3 periods of sick before you have a verbal warning - has your sister ever had a verbal warning for her sickness.

Companies will either have a hand book which gives you the sickness policy or if you have access to pc's the details will be on your companies intranet. It is very rare for a company to give you a written warning without having a verbal warning first or having serious reasons for giving a written warning. However, saying it is rare does not mean it doesn't happen at all! I would suggest that your sister talks to her line manager or HR

[haydnwalker]

After a fall at work I have tried to return a few times but due to my injured knee repeatedly swelling up when I am standing or walking too much I have been off work a lot. I was called in for a meeting and could soon end up out of a job. The Union said this is what happens with local authority employees a lot now if off for too long. I am having physio now on the knee but this doesn't alter the fact I might be out of work before physio has finished.

My other half works for our local authority and has been off sick for over a year - their policy is that she will not be paid any longer (not a problem and we can see why) but when she returns to work (her job is being left open indefinitely as far as we know) if she cannot return to her previous job, they MUST (according to their policy) find her alternative work within their ranks. Check their policys regarding "re-deployment" :)

[roadwolf]

Did she follow the company's absence reporting procedure?

It happens often with my staff that they have a valid reason for being off, but because they don't following the absence reporting procedure (in our case, to call me at least 2 hours before the start of the shift) then they end up getting disciplined.

What happens if they are injured 30 mins before the start of the shift, do they still get disciplined. Why 2 hours what difference does that make.