View Full Version : How much is the limit on 'unlimited'?
Has anyone here been warned about usage amount? I'm trying to figure out what VM's tolerance is on the 'Unlimited' package - I'm sure it can't really be unlimited - so, anyone have a clue?
Has anyone here been warned about usage amount? I'm trying to figure out what VM's tolerance is on the 'Unlimited' package - I'm sure it can't really be unlimited - so, anyone have a clue?
May i suggest you read this thread
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33613264-traffic-shaping-affecting-all-tiers.html
dcclanuk
28-05-2007, 20:55
Has anyone here been warned about usage amount? I'm trying to figure out what VM's tolerance is on the 'Unlimited' package - I'm sure it can't really be unlimited - so, anyone have a clue?
I will try to be clear... VM's package is Unlimitedly Limited.
By that I mean that in a way there really is NO LIMIT to how much u can download, but there is a limit as if u exceed ur cap, 350mb/750mb/3GB during peak hours depending on ur package, then it can be seen as a limit. Different people take different view points on this matter, but in ur case, download as much data as u physically can... they "SHOULDNT" care....
see the post by BILL C to see what i mean :D
glyn
please don't take this the wrong way, but if you searched the forum, you would find thousands (and I do not exaggerate) of posts on download limits.
Or if all else fails, you could look on the VM site, which tells you when the Traffic Management kicks in.
Traffic (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html)
On 2mb, it kicks in after 350mb between 4-12pm
On 4mb, it kicks in after 750mb between 4-12pm
On 10mb, it kicks in after 3Gb between 4-12pm
Thanks guys - I did search, I promise, but clearly not for the right keywords! (and sorry foreverwar, I didn't even think of looking on the VM site .. I guess I didn't think they'd be as helpful as that!) Thanks for your replies - perhaps I thought there might be a simple answer about when I'd get a warning, but I think it's much more subtle than that .. they just slow your speed down .. maybe to a trickle eventually?
I will try to be clear... VM's package is Unlimitedly Limited.
LOL :D
homealone
28-05-2007, 21:26
Thanks guys - I did search, I promise, but clearly not for the right keywords! (and sorry foreverwar, I didn't even think of looking on the VM site .. I guess I didn't think they'd be as helpful as that!) Thanks for your replies - perhaps I thought there might be a simple answer about when I'd get a warning, but I think it's much more subtle than that .. they just slow your speed down .. maybe to a trickle eventually?
They slow connections down, which download more than the threshold amounts of data in peak hours, but theoretically you can still max the account for the other 16 hours.
- how that will turn out once the 20Mb roll-out is complete may be interesting, iirc there is still an undefined 'fair use' policy tucked away, somewhere ?????
Some of the posts may be misleading, or confusing, but, the service is truly unlimited, in the sense that you may download AS MUCH as you want. They have the right though, to limit the speed in which you can download if you exceed certain limits:
2Mb: 350MB
4Mb: 750MB
10Mb/20Mb: 3GB
Once again, you may download as much as you want, music, movies, games, porn, software, whatever you wish, and they shouldn't really contact you to reduce your usage, though you may want to check their fair usage policy on their site.
On 10mb, it kicks in after 3Gb between 4-12pm
10Mb/20Mb: 3GB
Am I right in assuming that the 3gb applies to the period between 4pm and midnight? In other words if I download less than that during that period my speeds stay the same but if I download more then my speed is reduced but then reinstated to normal after midnight? Or does my speed stay low for some extended period of time after 3gb downloads?
Am I right in assuming that the 3gb applies to the period between 4pm and midnight? In other words if I download less than that during that period my speeds stay the same but if I download more then my speed is reduced but then reinstated to normal after midnight? Or does my speed stay low for some extended period of time after 3gb downloads?
You stay shaped for 4hrs i think, so if u download more than 3gig at 23:59 you still get shaped for 4hrs.
Am I right in assuming that the 3gb applies to the period between 4pm and midnight? In other words if I download less than that during that period my speeds stay the same but if I download more then my speed is reduced but then reinstated to normal after midnight? Or does my speed stay low for some extended period of time after 3gb downloads?
This is how it works.
On the 10Mb/20Mb package, if you download more then 3GB between 4pm-12am your speed will be reduced to 5Mb/192K. Even if you reach that limit at 11.59pm your speed will still be reduced, and it will last 4 hours.
So if you reach it at 5pm it will last until 9pm, then you can download another 3GB at full speed, and if you go over again it'll be reduced again and last 4 hours.
This is how it works.
Thanks Zee & Rik - now I get it -
Skyornot
29-05-2007, 02:35
Unlimited usage policy is just marketing talk for download limits. Which is exactly what i told the VM guy on the phone who was trying to blab about Sky broadband having limits.
mentalis
29-05-2007, 07:33
Putting on flamre retardant suit: The way I read it unlimited downloads means you can download as much as you want - there is nothing there about time. You can download as much data as your bandwidth allows constantly if you wish - it's just that at certain times your bandwidth may be limited - unlike ADSl when bandwidth is always limited :)
Putting on flamre retardant suit: The way I read it unlimited downloads means you can download as much as you want - there is nothing there about time. You can download as much data as your bandwidth allows constantly if you wish - it's just that at certain times your bandwidth may be limited - unlike ADSl when bandwidth is always limited :)
i see unlimited as the ISP saying download more than xGB (x not always being known) and you'll be kicked off/stopped till the end of the month/warned/charged. seeing as virgin do none of this, i'm happy for them to call it unlimited.
it is still not a truly unlimited server the ASA should stop them claiming it as unlimited
it is still not a truly unlimited server the ASA should stop them claiming it as unlimited
what's the limit then?
Incomplete
29-05-2007, 15:52
it's just that at certain times your bandwidth may be limited - unlike ADSl when bandwidth is always limited :)
Uh-hu.
http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/results.php?t=1180450314&v=1456383
Upstream is about 400kbps slower than normal, sorry about that that's just the way DSL goes :)
Anyway on topic in this sense no limit, but speed throttling. It's all pointless semantics. Download as much as you like but if you do too much at the wrong time you get slowed down. You can say it's unlimited or limited depending how you want to say it really. Agree to disagree and life goes on.
Beyond the STM no-one has been ticked off for downloading too much, so there's no limit for practical purposes.
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 16:28
what's the limit then?
i'll use the 4mb service as an example and at peak time 4pm -12 am.
if you only use your connection at peak hours on a shaped network you can download 6.75gb approx. on an un-shaped network you can download 12gb approx.
which one of those is unlimited? :confused:
i'll use the 4mb service as an example and at peak time 4pm -12 am.
if you only use your connection at peak hours on a shaped network you can download 6.75gb approx. on an un-shaped network you can download 12gb approx.
which one of those is unlimited? :confused:
<pedantic>neither of them :p: both have a "limit"</pedantic>
when an internet service is defined as unlimited it corresponds to the amount of transfer, you aren't being limited in this sense
Incomplete
29-05-2007, 17:03
Uh-oh I think this has become a 'cap is it or isn't it' thread ;)
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 17:28
<pedantic>neither of them :p: both have a "limit"</pedantic>
when an internet service is defined as unlimited it corresponds to the amount of transfer, you aren't being limited in this sense
probably best to continue in the other thread but i'll reply anyway, just because you can continue to download at other times doesn't make it unlimited.
it's like going to a pub and being told you can drink as much as you want but you only get a half pint and have to queue up and wait everytime you want another, hardly unlimited even if you can drink as much as you want.
Then any connection on any service offered by any isp is limited, because I am unaware of any available serivece offering an infinite download speed. Just a bit of a contradiction to call 5Mb (when shaped) a limit and call 20Mb (unshaped) not a limit.
dcclanuk
29-05-2007, 17:44
Then any connection on any service offered by any isp is limited, because I am unaware of any available serivece offering an infinite download speed. Just a bit of a contradiction to call 5Mb (when shaped) a limit and call 20Mb (unshaped) not a limit.
Ummm I think paying for 20mb internet and receiving 5mb due to being physically throttled is called limiting?
Ummm I think paying for 20mb internet and receiving 5mb due to being physically throttled is called limiting?
Ah, but you are paying for an XL up to 20Mb package, not a guaranteed 20Mb all the time package ;) A nasty yet sneaky wording.
I do fully agree that VM should remove the 'unlimited' incinuations from their advertisments on the service, but the above arguments I don't think will be successful in lobbying against it as they are too easily picked at. A different approach is required other than just claiming a speed is a limit.
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 17:53
explain to me how, if the maximum you can download in 8 hours is 12gb and you can only download 7gb it is not a limit? i think the easily picked apart argument is the one saying you can browse the internet while you are asleep.
it is still not a truly unlimited server the ASA should stop them claiming it as unlimited
Then report them and lets see if they agree with you. ?
The thing to pick that apart that if no shaping took place you still have a limit of what you can download in that time, yet that is classed as no limit. Only when the limit is reduced does it get labelled as a limit. In my eyes, you can't call one speed limit a limit and not call the other one a limit as well.
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 18:02
thats because if a limit exists and you are being offered unlimited you should expect to get the maximum possible when it gets reduced to less than that it becomes a limit.
You are always subject to a limit, that limit just gets reduced.
But from hereon in I think we just sayin how one views another :) I see your view though.
To address the parent issue though I strongly think the sutuation would benefit if the word 'unlimited' were replaced with 'uninterrupted' in reference to the download capacity of the service.
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 18:12
you are always subject to a physical limit and this is reduced to an artificially imposed limit they aren't the same thing.
You are always subject to a limit, that limit just gets reduced.
You're right, JackSon. This is all about how each individual wants to see things - the old glass half full or half empty.
There has always been a limit on the amount you can download because of the finite maximum speed you have and the number of hours in the day. The bandwidth hogs see STM as limiting their services. Others see that a 10Mb service without STM can actually download less than a 20Mb service with STM as implemented. So, in fact, your download limit has actually increased under the new regime.
Of course, those that don't like it will say that they only use the service during the peak time so they are reduced but .....
I do admit that my monthly download is less than 1GB so I'm not affected and in fact should benefit.
It's all about perspective.
Then report them and lets see if they agree with you. ?
what is the point ?
it is not unlimited because you are penalized for hitting a LIMIT!
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 18:18
under the traffic shaping at peak times the 20mb service downloads about as much as the old 10mb because they both get reduced to 5mb and both have the same 3gb allowance.
under the traffic shaping at peak times the 20mb service downloads about as much as the old 10mb because they both get reduced to 5mb and both have the same 3gb allowance.
You should do your research. That statement is simply false. Why? STM is only implemented when the service is upgraded from 10Mb to 20Mb. STM does not exist on the 10Mb service.
Incomplete
29-05-2007, 18:28
You should do your research. That statement is simply false. Why? STM is only implemented when the service is upgraded from 10Mb to 20Mb. STM does not exist on the 10Mb service.
You might want to tell the people who are STM'd on 10Mbit that.
Anyway I'm sure there's a thread already for this stuff? A very very large thread?
what is the point ?
it is not unlimited because you are penalized for hitting a LIMIT!
You said the ASA should stop them from advertising the service as unlimited. They aren't going to do that without complaints, so if the ASA should stop them best contact them. :)
You might want to tell the people who are STM'd on 10Mbit that.
They're NOT. They may have slow speeds but they're not caused by STM. This has been confirmed as correct on the VM Newsgroups.
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 18:32
traffic shaping didnt exist anywhere until the 20mb rollout, there are people on this board right now on 10mb getting traffic shaped while waiting for their upgrade and you also just pointed out how the old 10mb service would have offered a better speed at peak time than the new 20mb.
and if you dont believe it here is one of the STM supporters on 10mb stating he is being traffic shaped while waiting for the rollout
I doubt they would scrap the 4pm-12am.
Since the STM was turned on in my area a few days ago, the timing and accuracy has been spot on.
As soon as 3gig is exceeded during 4-12, the shaping is on straight away, and same for the shaping coming off.
Seems spot on here.
Still no 20MB tho :( (Hemel Hempstead routed via Luton)
what is the point ?
it is not unlimited because you are penalized for hitting a LIMIT!
In this context you can't use the word 'Limit' anyway.
–noun 1.the final, utmost, or furthest boundary or point as to extent, amount, continuance, procedure, etc.: the limit of his experience; the limit of vision. 2.a boundary or bound, as of a country, area, or district. 3.Mathematics. a.a number such that the value of a given function remains arbitrarily close to this number when the independent variable is sufficiently close to a specified point or is sufficiently large. The limit of 1/x is zero as x approaches infinity; the limit of (x − 1)2 is zero as x approaches 1. b.a number such that the absolute value of the difference between terms of a given sequence and the number approaches zero as the index of the terms increases to infinity. c.one of two numbers affixed to the integration symbol for a definite integral, indicating the interval or region over which the integration is taking place and substituted in a primitive, if one exists, to evaluate the integral. 4.limits, the premises or region enclosed within boundaries: We found them on school limits after hours. 5.Games. the maximum sum by which a bet may be raised at any one time. 6.the limit, Informal. something or someone that exasperates, delights, etc., to an extreme degree: You have made errors before, but this is the limit. –verb (used with object) 7.to restrict by or as if by establishing limits (usually fol. by to): Please limit answers to 25 words. 8.to confine or keep within limits: to limit expenditures. 9.Law. to fix or assign definitely or specifically.
Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/limit)
You may be penalized for hitting something, but it is not a limit; because you are allowed to surpass it. Remeber, you are talking about a quantity of data there, not speed. A limit, as defined above, cannot be exceeded. Yet in this context, the amount of data can be taken past the 'mark'
what is the point ?
it is not unlimited because you are penalized for hitting a LIMIT!
it is still not a truly unlimited server the ASA should stop them claiming it as unlimited
You said the Asa should do something.
Are you now saying you cannot be bothered because if that's the case why the continuing griping. If you don't like it get of your **** and do something about it. you cannot have it both ways and you cannot expect someone else to do your work for you. If i was complaining about it i would have reported it by now ?.
Its been the same from day 1 of this users saying :-
I will leave "how many have" ?
I will report it to the ASA "how many have" ?
All these people jumping up and down but how many have done anything about :rolleyes:
Have some balls and do what you say. I have seen all this before from the same users the last time the was a cap, limit ,What ever you think its called
Incomplete
29-05-2007, 18:37
They're NOT. They may have slow speeds but they're not caused by STM. This has been confirmed as correct on the VM Newsgroups.
The same VM newsgroups that denied the existence of said STM when they were trialling it yes? ;)
I believe Bill C is being STM'd already and his area has had no upgrade. There are a few other areas such as Preston, Blackpool and Swansea which are/were also STM'd pre-upgrade.
The same VM newsgroups that denied the existence of said STM when they were trialling it yes? ;)
I believe Bill C is being STM'd already and his area has had no upgrade. There are a few other areas such as Preston, Blackpool and Swansea which are/were also STM'd pre-upgrade.
I can confirm i am being shaped by STM and i have NOT had the 20 meg upgrade yet here in South Manchester :confused:. I have to agree that is against the statement that no one was to be shaped until the 20 meg was rolled out in their area.
I can confirm i am being shaped by STM and i have NOT had the 20 meg upgrade yet here in South Manchester :confused:. I have to agree that is against the statement that no one was to be shaped until the 20 meg was rolled out in their area.
which part of the 20mb schedule do you come under?
I can confirm i am being shaped by STM and i have NOT had the 20 meg upgrade yet here in South Manchester :confused:.
Apologies if I have been naive in accepting the statement from VM that STM and 20Mb are rolled out concurrently but how have you identified this and do VM tech support agree with you or prove otherwise?
I'm not familiar with the network topology and I guess it is possible to upgrade the SW on all parts of a topology without upgrading all of the hardware which could lead to 10Mb being STMed.
I would expect VM to concede that this has happened in your case, especially if you have definitive evidence that this is the case.
dcclanuk
29-05-2007, 19:01
Apologies if I have been naive in accepting the statement from VM that STM and 20Mb are rolled out concurrently but how have you identified this and do VM tech support agree with you or prove otherwise?
I'm not familiar with the network topology and I guess it is possible to upgrade the SW on all parts of a topology without upgrading all of the hardware which could lead to 10Mb being STMed.
I would expect VM to concede that this has happened in your case, especially if you have definitive evidence that this is the case.
HE WORKS FOR VM :lol:
which part of the 20mb schedule do you come under?
The to be confirmed . Runcorn, Brombourgh, South Manchester.
---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:01 ----------
Apologies if I have been naive in accepting the statement from VM that STM and 20Mb are rolled out concurrently but how have you identified this and do VM tech support agree with you or prove otherwise?
I'm not familiar with the network topology and I guess it is possible to upgrade the SW on all parts of a topology without upgrading all of the hardware which could lead to 10Mb being STMed.
I would expect VM to concede that this has happened in your case, especially if you have definitive evidence that this is the case.
Trust me i KNOW :LOL:. I worked on the systems for long enough :)
And that was NOT i REPEAT NOT a statement from my Employer. Please note my signature :)
Trust me i KNOW :LOL:. I worked on the systems for long enough :)
Again I apologise but if you know why can't you share your knowledge with me and the rest of the forum and also confront VM and get them to retract their statement.
Again I apologise but if you know why can't you share your knowledge with me and the rest of the forum and also confront VM and get them to retract their statement.
Because i post here in my own time :)
Because i post here in my own time :)
So do I and unfortunately unless you can explain or corroborate your evidence that STM is in force on your 10Mb connection then I cannot believe you. That doesn't mean to say that you are not correct but I couldn't find VM guilty if I were sitting on a jury as no evidence has been put forward, other than 'they're guilty because I say so'.
Anyway, let's not fall out over this. I was curious to understand. I have no axe to grind.
So do I and unfortunately unless you can explain or corroborate your evidence that STM is in force on your 10Mb connection then I cannot believe you. That doesn't mean to say that you are not correct but I couldn't find VM guilty if I were sitting on a jury as no evidence has been put forward, other than 'they're guilty because I say so'.
Anyway, let's not fall out over this. I was curious to understand. I have no axe to grind.
Look around the site for my name. You will see what i used to do for NTL as it was and now i work for NTL:Telewest Business. My Strong point was networks and Broadband, I now plan and implement Business circuits and services. I am not allowed to make statements on this forum on behalf on the company. At the end of the day it's up to you if you believe me or not. :D
And no i have no intention of falling out over this :tu:
The to be confirmed . Runcorn, Brombourgh, South Manchester.
assuming you mean Baguley area including: Birkenhead, Macclesfield, Runcorn, Stoke, then i should be the same as you, guess i'll do a test at the weekend see if i get throttled after 3GB
assuming you mean Baguley area including: Birkenhead, Macclesfield, Runcorn, Stoke, then i should be the same as you, guess i'll do a test at the weekend see if i get throttled after 3GB
Correct :tu:
You will :(
Correct :tu:
You will :(
we'll see :p:
now how about speeding up the upgrade process? ;)
EDIT: just a quick thought, is the STM still 4pm->midnight at weekends? (if at all?)
pedrohizzo
29-05-2007, 19:28
So do I and unfortunately unless you can explain or corroborate your evidence that STM is in force on your 10Mb connection then I cannot believe you. That doesn't mean to say that you are not correct but I couldn't find VM guilty if I were sitting on a jury as no evidence has been put forward, other than 'they're guilty because I say so'.
Anyway, let's not fall out over this. I was curious to understand. I have no axe to grind.
i posted a quote earlier from someone who supports the traffic management who is on 10mb and is being affected by it.
EDIT: just a quick thought, is the STM still 4pm->midnight at weekends? (if at all?)
yep it happens at weekends too.
Incomplete
29-05-2007, 20:31
Easy enough way to spot it is to simply chart your speeds using your favourite leeching tool's inbuilt meter or netmeter and watch as you hit the 3GB mark and speeds go down and stay down, smoothly, at the STM'd rate.
Can't be anything else :)
It is traffic shaped, i seen pics demonstrating the exact halving of speed after the threshold was passed. (Stoke area)
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