View Full Version : Traffic Shaping Affecting All Tiers
Xtinguish
29-04-2007, 17:25
My 2mb package has been capped to 1mb for just over a week now from about 5pm each evening to early next morning. After speaking to Cust Services in India a few times, an engineer has been sent round who confirmed that the problem was their end and although traffic shaping is supposed to be on 10 mb only, it is currently affecting all broadband levels. They are trying to resolve the issue as soon as possible. Let's hope it's not too long before normal service returns as I've had NTL broadband and phone for many troublefree years now.
Wow...so traffic shaping is affecting all areas, and they still sent out an engineer?
Bloody hell!
Xtinguish
29-04-2007, 17:53
Wow...so traffic shaping is affecting all areas, and they still sent out an engineer?
Bloody hell!
The engineer that visited said that he had never had so many call outs with regards to low speed issues. After checking my modem config levels, he said that there was no problem at my end and the problem was on their side. He then telephoned back to his office before explaining to me that although the traffic shaping was only supposed to be on 10mb, it was currently impacting all broadband tiers and they were trying to resolve it asap. Let's hope they do.
Is it affecting all user on all tiers, or heavy downloaders on all tiers?
Xtinguish
29-04-2007, 18:16
Is it affecting all user on all tiers, or heavy downloaders on all tiers?
I think it's affecting users using torrents or Newsgroups (incl. NTL Newsgroup). I've just been capped to half speed at 6pm after downloading approx. 500 mb from NTL Newsgroup). I could hardly be called a heavy downloader. I seem to be capped after 4pm to half speed if I max out my 2 megabit connection for more than about 30 mins.
Has been happening to me since last week too.
although traffic shaping is supposed to be on 10 mb only, it is currently affecting all broadband levels.
Some people wont like me saying this, but good, why should only the top paying tier be shaped when those paying for a cheaper package blaze away untouched?
I'm talking more at the 4mb users mind, if left un-shaped, then 10mb users will be paying £12 more for only 1mb extra during peak hours, and some people wont be too happy about that. As far as I'm concerned it's shape all tiers, or shape none.
And before you ask, yes I am a semi-heavy downloader, but almost all after midnight.
Some people wont like me saying this, but good, why should only the top paying tier be shaped when those paying for a cheaper package blaze away untouched?
I'm talking more at the 4mb users mind, if left un-shaped, then 10mb users will be paying £12 more for only 1mb extra during peak hours, and some people wont be too happy about that. As far as I'm concerned it's shape all tiers, or shape none.
And before you ask, yes I am a semi-heavy downloader, but almost all after midnight.
fully agree with you, tho im on 10Mb and not being shaped.
Some people wont like me saying this, but good, why should only the top paying tier be shaped when those paying for a cheaper package blaze away untouched?
I'm talking more at the 4mb users mind, if left un-shaped, then 10mb users will be paying £12 more for only 1mb extra during peak hours, and some people wont be too happy about that. As far as I'm concerned it's shape all tiers, or shape none.
And before you ask, yes I am a semi-heavy downloader, but almost all after midnight.
You don't get 1MB more during peak, you get 3 more, since 4MB goes to 2, 10MB to 5.
You don't get 1MB more during peak, you get 3 more, since 4MB goes to 2, 10MB to 5.
Read it again, that was an "If 4mb doesn't get shaped" comment.:)
Read it again, that was an "If 4mb doesn't get shaped" comment.:)
:erm: Oops sorry missed that part :-)
Rapid_UK
29-04-2007, 20:52
bit of an update.
I was capped down to 2 meg (from 4 meg) at about 6pm or so.
But now its gone up and I'm now capped at 3 meg.
Don't think they can make thier mind up of how this shaping is working lol.
could be whats happening to me then, im on 4meg, its dropped to 2meg not long ago, but i started downloading some stuff from bit torrent today. never happened before tho, and there is an area issue according to faults front end?!
downloaded about 4-500megs
I'm on a 4meg link, and I've been finding my upload is getting dropped by 80%-90%, not 50%. During the day I can u/l at around 37-38k/s, during the evening it drops to 6-8k/s.
But it only affects torrent traffic, speedtest still show 4M/400k.
Dawn Falcon
29-04-2007, 21:05
Some people wont like me saying this, but good, why should only the top paying tier be shaped when those paying for a cheaper package blaze away untouched?
Why should they penalise all users for the actions of a few people who jam their connections open 24/7? Oh wait, THAT math dosn't add up - this move is purely because they can't support the bandwidth for the faster services to come without capping. So you need to go up a package to set the same service when people are actually using it.
That's called "overselling". It's a sign of a bad company.
(Got evidence otherwise? link.)
This is in effect across all tiers this was niver a dispute. it affects people who have high bandwidth use 2 hours prior to 5pm up to midnight the cap will only last for 2 hour but can happen more than once in that time.
So you could be caped 6 - 8 then 8 - 10 and again 10 - 12. Or you could just be caped in any other combination of these times.
As far as I know there was only 2 or 3 areas that this was in effect on blackpool was one dont remember what the others were.
As I said at the time I think this is the way to go, the only people that will complain at this will be the pirates that are downloading stuff there is no way that the amount of traffic i have seen on some connections is legit usage.
Why should they penalise all users for the actions of a few people who jam their connections open 24/7?
I think you've completely missed the point I was making, I was talking about shaping on a per-tier basis, not a per-person basis.
Oh wait, THAT math dosn't add up
Someone has been watching a few too many American tv shows. In this country we spell it maths.
Sorry but its a pet hate of mine, just don't start trying to spell colour "color", or centre "center"...
Dawn Falcon
29-04-2007, 21:35
Hex, you might want to read the next sentence, which starts with "Oh, wait". I was slamming that line of reasoning for the necessity for traffic shaping people have previously used.
And I'm dyslexic, you try and tell me how words are spelt all day until you're blue in the face, for casual forum posting I'll still get them wrong. *shrugs* (And it dosn't help that quite a few of the docs I do are in American not British English...)
Just a thought, now bare with me.
What if
Its just
The bandwith being hogged at those times by teens etc :rolleyes:
Dawn Falcon
29-04-2007, 21:47
Per some of the graphs in other threads, Marky, it's showing a sharp drop to a definate maximum cap at those times, marky, not the sort of decline you'd see if it was simple overloading of the local bandwidth. There are also sharp rises after capped periods, etc.
I can't see how this is anything but deliberate.
And I'm dyslexic, you try and tell me how words are spelt all day until you're blue in the face, for casual forum posting I'll still get them wrong. *shrugs* (And it dosn't help that quite a few of the docs I do are in American not British English...)
Sorry mate, no insult intended, I see so many people these days typing using American spellings, including my kid sister. Don't know why but I just find it rather annoying for some reason.
Back to topic, you say everyone shouldn't be penalised for a small amount of users hammering their connection, and that's the whole idea behind the shaping, to cut the speed of those people who are hammering it during peak hours, that's why it only kicks in after Xmb, Joe Blogs down the road wouldn't notice any change as he casually browses ebay and checks his emails.
Dawn Falcon
29-04-2007, 22:03
No, Hex, that's my point. As I said, the math for the 2% of users hammering the service being the cause simply dosn't add up. This is purely about wanting to have a higher headline speed for the broadband service to attract customers, and not have to invest in infrastructure for it. Traffic shaping is cheaper than lighting cable. And Joe Blogs WILL notice the 200ms latency hit. It's like using a 56k modem again anytime traffic shaping goes on. (click-pause-webpage loads), as it does after he watches internet TV for 5 minutes before it all stops working properly (because he's just got capped).
Moreover, those 2% shouldn't be allowed to punish everyone even IF that was the cause. Toss em off the service allready. It's not rocket science.
So now we have spelling police :rolleyes:
No, Hex, that's my point. As I said, the math for the 2% of users hammering the service being the cause simply dosn't add up. This is purely about wanting to have a higher headline speed for the broadband service to attract customers, and not have to invest in infrastructure for it.
In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but I do believe it's more than 2%. Also if VM decided to upgrade the entire network to handle every connection it sold, they'd probably end up bankrupt, and we'd all have to go back to ADSL*shudders*
Sure shaping is a bit of an underhanded trick, but it is a necessary evil whilst they do upgrade the network (and they do, albeit rather slowly, piece by piece)
Well that's my take on it anyway.
Traffic shaping is cheaper than lighting cable. And Joe Blogs WILL notice the 200ms latency hit. It's like using a 56k modem again anytime traffic shaping goes on.
Having not been shaped, I cant deny this, but I can doubt it. My JB example was someone not even triggering the shaping. But even if it did, it should only shape down to 5mb, a far cry from 56k, and 200ms? Back when my NTL connection was shiny, new and only 600k it had lower latency than that, so where you got that kind of figure from I don't know. :shrug:
So now we have spelling police :rolleyes:
Spelling mistakes are fine, god knows I make plenty myself, but fine, I'll just go back to grumbling to myself about the corruption of our language. Just don't come running to me when match of the day starts calling the game "soccer" and so on and so forth, yada yada yada.... [/Rant]
Oh and don't take any of the above too seriously, It's just been one of those days :p:
Hey no probs, I labor away so my wife can get jewelry in all the colors she wants :p:
the packet shaping effect things like bit torrent packets usenet packets ect... (unless using ssh) and only hits those with high usage at these times.
Its not effecting everyone in that area..
I have used traffic shaping on private networks and your idea that uneffected packets get delayed i dont understand as i have niver seen this. More as it only effects the packets coming for X modem with X header on packet.
Dawn Falcon
30-04-2007, 00:45
Hex, the ADSL providers commonly say that 2-3% of their users take the **** with their bandwidth usage, I fail to see how this would be much different on cable.
As for overselling, I'd rather have a sensible service I can use, at a reasonable price, than one which is traffic shapped into uselesness if I *DARE* use it at peak times when y'know, I'm actually home. If that's slower and more expensive, SO BE IT! It's still better than overselling. "Small, slow" upgrades to the network when you're offering higher speeds is not worth it - the "higher speeds" they're offering are nothing more than a way for people to leech more illegal stuff off-peak, as things stand, and to pay more for having the "same" (actually traffic-shaping degraded) connection at useable times.
Every single instance of traffing shaping I've seen has added considerable latency. As for the 56k comparison, the main factor there is the latency again. Becuse of the technical limits of 56k, there's usually a fair bit of latency which leads to click-pause-click registers on server. This annoys non-technical people no end, and traffic shaping, IME, makes broadband act that way as well. This is one of the major advantages of broadband, ignoring raw speed entirely! (it also applies to ISDN, which is why a 64k ISDN connection feels SO much smoother than web surfing than a 56k modem!)
Rubbish it's a necessary "evil", it's a business descision and one which is NOT in any way for the customer, it's purely for the headlines and the bottom line.
Diadem, inspecting the packets takes time. Supposedly very little time, but in practice it adds several hundred ms, IME.
Chrysalis
30-04-2007, 03:43
They should be capping all tiers, I expect they have a had a fair few people downgrading to the middle tier after realising they were paying extra for nothing.
Retrovertigo
30-04-2007, 10:59
I did ask this in another thread a while ago but don't think it was answered. Anyway, what is the point of the upgrade to 20meg if they need to cap speeds of an evening at the moment? Surely that's when most people use the net and the speed increase is effectively null and void? Maybe I'm missing something stupidly obvious here.
I did ask this in another thread a while ago but don't think it was answered. Anyway, what is the point of the upgrade to 20meg if they need to cap speeds of an evening at the moment? Surely that's when most people use the net and the speed increase is effectively null and void? Maybe I'm missing something stupidly obvious here.
This is not in all areas!!!! only in the 3 most congested areas of the old telewest network. this has not been put on to the ntl section of the network at all..
This is not in all areas!!!! only in the 3 most congested areas of the old telewest network. this has not been put on to the ntl section of the network at all..
If you are talking about the traffic shaping trials, they are in use on ntl, swansea has been part of the trial for a while now, they cap the speed of 2mb as well, i know this from personal experience. Doesn't matter what you dl if you dl after 4pm you get capped, i have gone a whole day just usual surfing but had to dl updates about 11pm and just after dl started speed was halved.
fair enough dont get alot of detail on what is going on on the ntl regions. last i heard about 2 months ago it wasnt in use there yet
meangreenie
30-04-2007, 12:55
I've tried for 3 straight days in a row to stop them cutting the connection in half. Their service department deny all knowledge of any this, and basically just keep telling me it's must be my fault, they fix it and it lasts for @20mins and then I'm back to square 1.
So now I'm paying £18.00 for a 1Mbit connection which has serious lag issues for on-line gaming after 4.00pm to 1.00am if i dare let anything download for 20 minutes... and there is nothing I can do about it.
Ever since Virgin have taken over the system has gone down hill so fast with too many instances of service outages and one of the outages a week or so a go was for 2 days straight, and now this............Sky here I come.
Retrovertigo
30-04-2007, 13:52
This is not in all areas!!!! only in the 3 most congested areas of the old telewest network. this has not been put on to the ntl section of the network at all..
edit: nevermind, I see above that someone has mentioned NTL are affected.
For the last few weeks I've been getting around 2-2.5Mb instead of 4Mb.
I called tonight and was told I should bear with it as it would be improved in the future but they couldn't give a timescale. I wasn't happy with this (surprise!!) so spoke to someone else. They told me that there were too many customers connected in my area (well I didn't do it!!) and that at peak times there would be a downgraded service. Since I only use it outside office hours, I effectively only get the downgraded service which is not what I'm paying for. I was told that my "ubr" was being looked at and should be resolved during the weekly review....although they've been aware of the issue since the 10th and it's still not sorted.
Now since I'm upgrading to 10Mb next Wednesday (when the new modem gets installed) and then the free upgrade to 20Mb, I can't see how the network will cope when it can't cope with 4Mb.
I got fobbed off by "please wait until you've got your new modem and that'll give us the time to resolve the area problem".
That'll be a month since they've been aware of the contention. Not good enough. I wonder how many punters are paying for a service that they're not getting. :rolleyes: :nono:
From what i've read so far (and what i've experienced) if you download solidly for more than 30 mins between 4pm and 12am, then u get half speed restriction for 2 hours... yes?
in that case... once my 10mb "officially" becomes 20mb, if i max it out for 30 mins, will I get 10mb for 2 hours?
i say "officially" because i'm already on 20 and wen i hit the limit, i got reduced to 5mb for 2 hours...
Yeah shaped again. Have been good lately downloading barely anything, but did some updates for my linux system tonight and bang 2mb :(
Sirpingalot
30-04-2007, 23:20
Also in the NW, find my connection has been pretty darn reliable (with the exception of a few days).
Chrysalis
01-05-2007, 07:25
if there is one thing massively wrong here it is customer services telling porkies, either they need to be trained up in whats going on or if they do know then stop lying to customers.
i work in cs m8, weve heard damn all about traffic shaping, infact we get told eveyday how 'amazing' our bb service is supposed to be and theres no limits or anything.
infact just as it started we were sticking massive posters up everywhere saying 'Imagine downloading something THIS BIG?' dont know if u remember back in feb.
i downloaded 500mb file through BT and im still at half speed. went onto 10mb last night and ive got 4.7mb on speedtests
dontpannic
01-05-2007, 13:46
I've tried for 3 straight days in a row to stop them cutting the connection in half. Their service department deny all knowledge of any this, and basically just keep telling me it's must be my fault, they fix it and it lasts for @20mins and then I'm back to square 1.
So now I'm paying £18.00 for a 1Mbit connection which has serious lag issues for on-line gaming after 4.00pm to 1.00am if i dare let anything download for 20 minutes... and there is nothing I can do about it.
Ever since Virgin have taken over the system has gone down hill so fast with too many instances of service outages and one of the outages a week or so a go was for 2 days straight, and now this............Sky here I come.
That's amazing logic there that Virgin have caused all the problems. Let me backtrack.
NTL:TELEWEST BOUGHT VIRGIN MOBILE, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.
You can't generalise that ALL your problems are caused by Virgin, they aren't. And as for your "Sky here I come" comment, go for it. You won't achieve anything telling us! It's just then you'd be stuck with crap telly, "up to" 8 meg broadband (which is commonly 2, if you're lucky), a BT phone line, and none of the benefits of cable.
It's probably that I'm not in a congested area, but its quite difficult to max a 20meg connection on some sites anyway, not many servers have a 20meg upload speed.
Dawn Falcon
01-05-2007, 20:41
I did ask this in another thread a while ago but don't think it was answered. Anyway, what is the point of the upgrade to 20meg if they need to cap speeds of an evening at the moment? Surely that's when most people use the net and the speed increase is effectively null and void? Maybe I'm missing something stupidly obvious here.
I don't think you are. A better way of phrasing the point I was trying to make, there :)
As I've also said before, NTL being clear and transparent about this is the only way to stop people assuming the worst. jcuk, I'm not saying its your fault at all - getting the data to the people on point is part of the clear and transparent bit and where I've seen this sort of thing fail again and again.
I experienced traffic shaping myself today for the first time. Couldn't believe it. I may have had it before but never realised.
Downloaded a large file today, constant 470-480 kB/s then after around 4.00pm it stuck at just over 220 kB/s. Used to be quite fond of NTL.
I just want to know the 'rules' for this shaping so I can try and avoid it. Right now, I've basically stopped downloading anything at all in order to get my usage down. Then attempting to download about 700 meg of data between 4 & 11. Everytime 20 min in, boom, downgraded.
I don't mind so much if they can give me a reason for it, that way I can manage my traffic usage to avoid being downgraded.
But right now it's so nebulous it's ridiculous.
stormrider
01-05-2007, 23:35
Hmm been wondering what might be going on. My 10mb service has dropped from a steady 7-8mb down to 4-5mb.
I'll have to do some tests in the morning and see what its like then.
InsaneNutter
02-05-2007, 08:53
Hmm been wondering what might be going on. My 10mb service has dropped from a steady 7-8mb down to 4-5mb.
I'll have to do some tests in the morning and see what its like then.
In the moring it works fine! but after 5-6ish my 4mb connection gets limited to anywhere between 30-100kb down and about 10-15kb up :td::td::td:
Sirpingalot
02-05-2007, 08:57
Ouch.
jorgehernan
02-05-2007, 12:16
I'm on the 20mb in the bromley area.
Last night at around 4.50pm I was happily downloading an opensuse iso @ between 1900-2200kbp/s, as soon as it hit 5.01pm it shot down to 650kbp/s and wouldn't budge, no matter what I tried to download.
I phoned India, gave me the old "read off a script" run-around (do you have a router?, do you have any p2p software? and the classic......wait for it..... put your computer into safe mode) she insisted it was a fault, I said no it isn't and hey presto what happens 20mins later it goes back to normal.
Makes you wonder whether they know all along and all they have to do is press a button for it to go back to normal.......mmmmmmmmm:erm: :erm: ;)
GreyWolf
02-05-2007, 12:49
Subscriber traffic management has been implemented across the whole network, there will be defined download limits that when reached will halve the broadband speed for four hours.
The FAQ will be published tomorrow on the virginmedia website.
jorgehernan
02-05-2007, 13:46
Subscriber traffic management has been implemented across the whole network, there will be defined download limits that when reached will halve the broadband speed for four hours.
The FAQ will be published tomorrow on the virginmedia website.
Doesnt that defeat the object of Virgin Media supposedly being unlimited? We pay one of the highest costs for broadband around only for virgin to not half my speed but cut it by 3/4 of its stated speed.
How can they expect people to carry on paying £37 for 20mb only for it to be capped when they feel like it, when BE broadband are only charging £24 for 24mb down and 1.3 up (and yes I know you only get that if you live next door to the exchange)
Very tempting to go back to them. (Was getting 16mb, dont ask me why I left them!! I guess the temptation for 20mb got me):rolleyes: :( )
Not on!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :td: :td:
helmutcheese
02-05-2007, 13:48
Someone on other forum claimed the Virgin FAQ's page will be updated tomorrow (meaning 2nd May but here it is still:
http://www.virginmedia.com/help/faq/#downloadscapped
Q: Is it true that downloads will be capped?
A: Our cable services are not capped and there are no intentions to introduce any usage limits - these are unlimited.
Still the same so not updated as of yet unless you want to look at caps as not same as throttling, either way its still a limiter in either speed or amount so its a bandwidth saver, and its lies about only some areas have the throttling as UBR10 Uddingston is not offically on it but I notice its slow between mid afternoon till midnight every day for the past 6 months without downloading anything so not going over any limit, again thats down to my oversubscribed UBR. :(
I find that internet providers suddenly get very limited when discussing EXACTLY what they mean by 'limits' :-)
Really, if Virgin want to bring in some sort of 'traffic management' or whatever euphemism they want to give it, that's fine. But I just wish they would be upfront about it, don't couch it in BS just tell it as it is.
After all don't virgin try and market themselves as straight shooters?
If other ISPs offer crazy 'true unlimited' that's great. I'll make a value judgement when I get all the info to hand. But the way Virgin have implemented this 'network management' without any sort of customer service / marketing plan in effect has been an example of very poor management.
The problem isn't that they are capping people. It's that they aren't telling customers that they are being capped and why. That much imo is inexcusable.
jorgehernan
02-05-2007, 14:06
I find that internet providers suddenly get very limited when discussing EXACTLY what they mean by 'limits' :-)
Really, if Virgin want to bring in some sort of 'traffic management' or whatever euphemism they want to give it, that's fine. But I just wish they would be upfront about it, don't couch it in BS just tell it as it is.
After all don't virgin try and market themselves as straight shooters?
If other ISPs offer crazy 'true unlimited' that's great. I'll make a value judgement when I get all the info to hand. But the way Virgin have implemented this 'network management' without any sort of customer service / marketing plan in effect has been an example of very poor management.
The problem isn't that they are capping people. It's that they aren't telling customers that they are being capped and why. That much imo is inexcusable.
Here, here well said and absolutely true!!
I find that internet providers suddenly get very limited when discussing EXACTLY what they mean by 'limits' :-)
Really, if Virgin want to bring in some sort of 'traffic management' or whatever euphemism they want to give it, that's fine. But I just wish they would be upfront about it, don't couch it in BS just tell it as it is.
After all don't virgin try and market themselves as straight shooters?
If other ISPs offer crazy 'true unlimited' that's great. I'll make a value judgement when I get all the info to hand. But the way Virgin have implemented this 'network management' without any sort of customer service / marketing plan in effect has been an example of very poor management.
The problem isn't that they are capping people. It's that they aren't telling customers that they are being capped and why. That much imo is inexcusable.
A very fair comment indeed.
DieDieMyDarling
02-05-2007, 18:55
I find that internet providers suddenly get very limited when discussing EXACTLY what they mean by 'limits' :-)
Really, if Virgin want to bring in some sort of 'traffic management' or whatever euphemism they want to give it, that's fine. But I just wish they would be upfront about it, don't couch it in BS just tell it as it is.
After all don't virgin try and market themselves as straight shooters?
If other ISPs offer crazy 'true unlimited' that's great. I'll make a value judgement when I get all the info to hand. But the way Virgin have implemented this 'network management' without any sort of customer service / marketing plan in effect has been an example of very poor management.
The problem isn't that they are capping people. It's that they aren't telling customers that they are being capped and why. That much imo is inexcusable.
Preach it brother (or sister. :D).
A lot of people will agree with you on this, VM have used the 20mb speeds to sell their product, steal off other ISPs and entice customers to stay. It sounds great, 20mb is a very high speed for the UK, it wouldn't sound so good if they were honest about the traffic shaping though, and could be used against them when comparing with ADSL and distance from the exchange. It's great being told your service is 'up to' 20mb or 16mb, but if at the end of the day all you can get in the hours you actually use the service is 5mb, it's not all that enticing!
As i'm sure most people on here would agree, there does have to be some sort of traffic shaping, but it has to be sensible and up front.
I personally am on 10mb, and i download quite a bit, sometimes 200gb a month, i do most of my downloading overnight, so it doesn't really affect me, but surely it's unfair for someone who works all day, maybe downloads 3gb a month, and only really gets the chance to do his downloading in the evening, to get his speed and latency reduced, just because he's downloading a one off movie or game update.
I think the best solution would be to have the traffic shaping only kick in for people who have a history of downloading a lot, ie 100gb a month, let mass downloaders do their damage in the early hours of the morning and be limited through the day. Let it affect all downloads for those concerned, thus not affecting the latency for gaming, where it's checking for certain packets.
Meanwhile normal users can continue to enjoy the service as normal, day and night, without suffering for other peoples useage.
VM should also have this information on the website, and share it with the CS staff too, so that if someone phones up wondering why they're on half speed through the day, they can be informed exactly why that is. They can then change their habits to downloading over night, and time and money isn't wasted on engineer visits, man hours for CS staff trying to fix the problem, etc.
Sirpingalot
02-05-2007, 19:18
Preach it brother (or sister. :D).
A lot of people will agree with you on this, VM have used the 20mb speeds to sell their product, steal off other ISPs and entice customers to stay. It sounds great, 20mb is a very high speed for the UK, it wouldn't sound so good if they were honest about the traffic shaping though, and could be used against them when comparing with ADSL and distance from the exchange. It's great being told your service is 'up to' 20mb or 16mb, but if at the end of the day all you can get in the hours you actually use the service is 5mb, it's not all that enticing!
As i'm sure most people on here would agree, there does have to be some sort of traffic shaping, but it has to be sensible and up front.
I personally am on 10mb, and i download quite a bit, sometimes 200gb a month, i do most of my downloading overnight, so it doesn't really affect me, but surely it's unfair for someone who works all day, maybe downloads 3gb a month, and only really gets the chance to do his downloading in the evening, to get his speed and latency reduced, just because he's downloading a one off movie or game update.
I think the best solution would be to have the traffic shaping only kick in for people who have a history of downloading a lot, ie 100gb a month, let mass downloaders do their damage in the early hours of the morning and be limited through the day. Let it affect all downloads for those concerned, thus not affecting the latency for gaming, where it's checking for certain packets.
Meanwhile normal users can continue to enjoy the service as normal, day and night, without suffering for other peoples useage.
VM should also have this information on the website, and share it with the CS staff too, so that if someone phones up wondering why they're on half speed through the day, they can be informed exactly why that is. They can then change their habits to downloading over night, and time and money isn't wasted on engineer visits, man hours for CS staff trying to fix the problem, etc.
A very valid point indeed, however; I do think the current management system is ideal. I prefer that the restrictions only apply for the evening that you're downloading content, and that you're not restricted for a lenthly period before they have to put you back to normal service when the amount downloaded decreases.
Well here it is.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html
OK, just read through that, and all I can say is Typical...
While I was in agreement over some of that shaping being needed, I do not agree with the shaping on the upstream bandwidth.
Not that it really matters, but they've lost my support/backing for the traffic management now, and I wont keep trying to defend them on here any more. :rolleyes:
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 14:15
Well here it is.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html
So much for their unlimited service:erm:
I cant understand why anyone would back them in the sense that they say it is still unlimited. Its not, they are putting a cap in place and iof you go over that they are limiting your speed. The cap is till there, they have just done it a different way.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 14:19
Subscriber traffic management has been implemented across the whole network, there will be defined download limits that when reached will halve the broadband speed for four hours.
The FAQ will be published tomorrow on the virginmedia website.
I take it vm are contacting customers who have broadband to inform them of this and offer them the opportunity to cancel their contracts without penalty? anything less is not on.
its still unlimited because you can still d/l as much as you want its just gonna take more time to download now.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 14:21
I cant understand why anyone would back them in the sense that they say it is still unlimited. Its not, they are putting a cap in place and iof you go over that they are limiting your speed. The cap is till there, they have just done it a different way.
What they need to do now is drop the " unlimited " flag they fly in the press.
---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------
its still unlimited because you can still d/l as much as you want its just gonna take more time to download now.
It is not unlimited in the true sense, with all respect you sound like another one sucked into the bs.
So if you use your shiney new 20mb package and use it for 21minutes continously from 4pm to midnight you'll be hit.
Whoo it's those nuggets that still think 1gig is still a huge amount are to blame.
Well here it is.
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html
That is completely bloody pants... 3Gb between the hours of 4 and 12. That's 8 hours of "peak usage"... The only real time i use the bloody thing when i'm at college.
384Mb an hour... Or if my calculations are correct, if you download at 375kBps you will hit the top usage easily... Not too fair on those heavy days especially if they cut the upload too.
This unlimited service is not exactly unlimited any more.
its still unlimited because you can still d/l as much as you want its just gonna take more time to download now.
Its not unlimited. Im paying for 10MB, there is now a cap of 3GB on at 4-12pm which if i go over 3GB will reduce my speed to 5MB, thus meaning for 4 hours im reciving 5MB instead of the 10MB im paying for. It is not unlimited no more, the cap is there of 3GB plainy for everyone to see now.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 14:25
So if you use your shiney new 20mb package and use it for 21minutes continously from 4pm to midnight you'll be hit.
Whoo it's those nuggets that still think 1gig is still a huge amount are to blame.
That is it, another kick in the b******* for the customer, but if people are willing to let them get away with it :erm:
That is it, another kick in the b******* for the customer, but if people are willing to let them get away with it :erm:
They can geta way with it all the want, it probably wont affect me, but like you said, they now need to drop the unlimited bit that they spread about.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 14:32
They can geta way with it all the want, it probably wont affect me, but like you said, they now need to drop the unlimited bit that they spread about.
They can only get away with what people let them get away with, customers should vote with their wallet.
They can geta way with it all the want, it probably wont affect me, but like you said, they now need to drop the unlimited bit that they spread about.
It is still unlimited, they could ask you "can you still download the file"?
"yes just slower than usual for those hours"
Unlimited means "as much as you want", but now not as fast as you can (or pay for as that's another matter), there is a difference in the context people use for the word unlimited.
Unlimited can also mean "in no way that it is limited of any kind" in that case yes it wrong to call it unlimited, but I think everyone know's exactly what's what here.
They have limited your amounts by speed whilst effectively you can still download continuously 24/7 - unlimited.
It is still unlimited, they could ask you "can you still download the file"?
"yes just slower than usual for those hours"
Unlimited means "as much as you want", but now not as fast as you can (or pay for as that's another matter), there is a different in the context people use for the word unlimited.
Unlimited can also mean "in no way that it is limited of any kind" in that case yes it wrong to call it unlimited, but I think any know's exactly what's what here.
They have limited your amounts by speed whilst effectively you can still download continuously 24/7 - unlimited.
No they have limited the amount i and others can download between 4-12pm. In no way can that be an unlimited service. If i go over 3GB they then are cutting my service to 5MB, i pay for 10 not 5. So if im paying for 10, why has it gone down to 5, well because you downloaded over the amount we allow you. Well you said it was unlimited, it is unlimited. But its not is it, there is a limit in place and once you hit it, your speed reduces thus meaning i have hit a limit. Thats means the service they offer is not unlimited.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 14:44
It is still unlimited, they could ask you "can you still download the file"?
"yes just slower than usual for those hours"
Unlimited means "as much as you want", but now not as fast as you can (or pay for as that's another matter), there is a difference in the context people use for the word unlimited.
Unlimited can also mean "in no way that it is limited of any kind" in that case yes it wrong to call it unlimited, but I think everyone know's exactly what's what here.
They have limited your amounts by speed whilst effectively you can still download continuously 24/7 - unlimited.
They are " restricting " your service.
A definition of limited is " restricted "
They should drop the unlimited advertising bs and give customers the chance to cancel without penalty, then if you want to buy into it its up to you.
Shawty and arcamalpha2004 I also agree with you. What I said is what the other side of the argument is, I'm sure you've heard it all a million times anyway.
I'm gutted that I now have 20mb that I can only use for 21mins continously from 4pm (glad I don't go to work). Why bring out 20mb in the 1st place.
Shawty and arcamalpha2004 I also agree with you. What I said is what the other side of the argument is, I'm sure you've heard it all a million times anyway.
I'm gutted that I now have 20mb that I can only use for 21mins continously from 4pm (glad I don't go to work). Why bring out 20mb in the 1st place.
There is no other side of the arguement. Clearly there is now a limit in place which makes it an limited service and not unlimited. Anyone using the other arguement does not know what they are talking about.
DieDieMyDarling
03-05-2007, 14:54
Shawty and arcamalpha2004 I also agree with you. What I said is what the other side of the argument is, I'm sure you've heard it all a million times anyway.
I'm gutted that I now have 20mb that I can only use for 21mins continously from 4pm (glad I don't go to work). Why bring out 20mb in the 1st place.
Advertising. They're a business, they are in it to make money and get more customers to make even more money.
I wonder how much this will cost them in retentions though, especially now as it would seem if you mention 'Sky' they'll offer you all but their own grandmother to keep you.
And we're not talking about just a few video clips. In some cases the top 5% of users were downloading as much as 3GB, just during peak times. That's around 750 music tracks in the space of a few hours..
Holy s*** Batman, 3 gigs !!!! Wait a minute, that says over a space of a 'few' hours, 3 gig on 20mb is 21 minutes.
spankysmagicpian
03-05-2007, 15:02
Its not unlimited. Im paying for 10MB, there is now a cap of 3GB on at 4-12pm which if i go over 3GB will reduce my speed to 5MB, thus meaning for 4 hours im reciving 5MB instead of the 10MB im paying for. It is not unlimited no more, the cap is there of 3GB plainy for everyone to see now.
So you queue up 9Gb in peak time - it takes 45 minutes for the first 3Gb and maybe 2 and a half hours for the rest - it's all downloaded but it's taken say 3 and a half hours instead of 2 hours. You're still allowed to download how much you want.. it's just taken a bit longer :)
I do download a lot but only from midnight onwards - I can't think of anything that would be needed enough to grab it there and then unless people are genuinely desperate for a Linux build and even those such as Ubuntu can reside on a CD now.
I'm guessing that people who do hammer it in peak time and possibly all the time are those who like to download DVD5s especially now the car boot season is upon us ;)
There's only so many Linux ISOs you can grab. :D
Lets see now....
AOL - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed after roughly 1.3Gb in peak hours.
Tiscali - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed
Pipex - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed between 18:00 and 00:00
SkyBB - advertised as unlimited on Max but traffic managed / warning letters and eventual cap on monthly amount.
BT Total BB - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed
So don't you think we are being let off lightly with double the allowance per day than AOL?
brundles
03-05-2007, 15:04
I've seen a lot of references to maxing the connection out for x minutes at a time to trigger it, but the VM page doesn't make any reference to that. On the 4MB package, the 750MB limit seems to cover the whole 8 hours.
I tend to specifically avoid downloading large files during the define peak hours, but that limit is a joke. The 375MB, 750MB and 3GB limits seem to be a rather fool hardy attempt to encourage people from X/L onto XL. 750MB over 8 hours isn't that difficult when you have 2 laptops connected for home working (one of them running VNC sessions to remote servers), and a VOIP adapter with 2 lines.
Edit: And as for recommending DU meter in a day and age when many different devices connect to the net at once - WTF!!! I'd like to see them install that on an Xbox 360!
So you queue up 9Gb in peak time - it takes 45 minutes for the first 3Gb and maybe 2 and a half hours for the rest - it's all downloaded but it's taken say 3 and a half hours instead of 2 hours. You're still allowed to download how much you want.. it's just taken a bit longer :)
I do download a lot but only from midnight onwards - I can't think of anything that would be needed enough to grab it there and then unless people are genuinely desperate for a Linux build and even those such as Ubuntu can reside on a CD now.
I'm guessing that people who do hammer it are those who prefer to download DVD5s rather than DIVx rips especially now the car boot season is upon us ;)
Lets see now....
AOL - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed after roughly 1.3Gb in peak hours.
Tiscali - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed
Pipex - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed between 18:00 and 00:00
SkyBB - advertised as unlimited on Max but traffic managed / warning letters and eventual cap on monthly amount.
BT Total BB - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed
So don't you think we are being let off lightly with double the allowance per day than AOL?
This is Virgin Media, none of the rest so forget them. Im paying for 10MB broadband, not 5MB broadband between 4-12PM. VM have not just limited everyones broadband but are still calling it unlimited.
How any company that can sell you a 20mb connection and deem 3 gigs is a whopping great amount is clearly taking a sample.
DieDieMyDarling
03-05-2007, 15:09
It would appear people are already hammering retentions. I phoned up about 12:30 to activate a new modem, got through in about 10 seconds, just rang there now and was told there's a queue where i could have to wait 10 mins.
spankysmagicpian
03-05-2007, 15:10
I agree with you Shawty in a way but what are you going to do?
Complain? or move supplier?
It's the way of the world now - this has been coming for a long time now and was discussed a while ago when ADSL / BB first came available.
I'm not saying it's right but it's the 'best of a bad bunch' People don't seem to be factoring in other matters such as reliability etc.
I know a few people who'd be lucky to download an album before their ADSL connection collapsed let alone 3Gb.
I do however think for 20Mb connection - 5Gb would be a more realistic amount before it was triggered.
I agree with you Shawty in a way but what are you going to do?
Complain? or move supplier?
It's the way of the world now - this has been coming for a long time now and was discussed a while ago when ADSL / BB first came available.
I'm not saying it's right but it's the 'best of a bad bunch' People don't seem to be factoring in other matters such as reliability etc.
I know a few people who'd be lucky to download an album before their ADSL connection collapsed let alone 3Gb.
Thats not the point. The point here is advertising what is not true. Clearly VM broadband is now limited, so it needs to be sold as that.
brundles
03-05-2007, 15:13
AOL - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed after roughly 1.3Gb in peak hours.
Tiscali - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed
Pipex - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed between 18:00 and 00:00
SkyBB - advertised as unlimited on Max but traffic managed / warning letters and eventual cap on monthly amount.
BT Total BB - advertised as unlimited but traffic managed
So don't you think we are being let off lightly with double the allowance per day than AOL?
OK, taking a few of those options for me:
Pipex: Up to 8Mb, £14.99 per month
Tiscali: Up to 8MB, £17.99 per month.
Sky: Up to 16MB, £10.00 per month.
VM: Up to 4MB, £24.99 per month.
Not to mention having to fork out for a BT Line (we currently have no fixed line, using VOIP and Mobiles), and that I live pretty much in the middle of 2 exchanges so wouldn't hope to get anywhere near that on any ADSL line.
I accepted paying higher prices for the service because it was reliable at the speeds advertised. And while I think that some form of traffic shapping/traffic management is essential I think they've set the limits way too low.
I can see the Sky execs rubbing their hands with glee at this one!
21 minutes usage in 8 hours is VERY LOW.
spankysmagicpian
03-05-2007, 15:23
Has anyone (can anyone) confirm the speeds? By the looks of the web page the XL package management is based on the 10Mb ????? if everything is being halved after 3Gb??
Maybe they should only implement the traffic management for everyone except those on the VIP pack :D
Will that mean 20mb be 10mb and upload be 384k , if that's the case then not too bad.
Will that mean 20mb be 10mb and upload be 384k , if that's the case then not too bad.
"When will this new policy be launched?
We'll start moderating the heaviest users' service at the same time we roll out the new speed increases for Broadband XL customers. "
"Broadband Size: XL
During peak times, the top 5% on the Size: XL package download at least 3GB of traffic each.
Any users hitting this amount during peak times (4pm till midnight) will have their broadband speed temporarily traffic managed – their download speed will be set to 5Mb, with their upload speed set to 256Kb. This will last for 4 hours from when the traffic management policy is applied. "
So it looks like your connection will be quartered. :(
Will that mean 20mb be 10mb and upload be 384k , if that's the case then not too bad.
That's the way i look at it, why we even moaning about it when it's a free upgrade, you download 3 gigs at 20mb then get cut down to 10mb when the 4 hrs is up and then back to normal. as far as i can see there's nothing wrong with that.:erm:
That's the way i look at it, why we even moaning about it when it's a free upgrade, you download 3 gigs at 20mb then get cut down to 10mb when the 4 hrs is up and then back to normal. as far as i can see there's nothing wrong with that.:erm:
Well there is no actual statement saying that, so you have to assume its 20 down to 5.
Well there is no actual statement saying that, so you have to assume its 20 down to 5.
As long as it ain't 56k then it's all good. lmao:sleep:
so they put the price up AND now they traffic shape.
:tu:
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 15:57
They are very econimical with the truth as far as i can see. I can download nothing at all till 4.00pm then as soon as I let it go for 20 minutes I'm cut to 1Mb till 1.00am in the morning.
£18.00 for effectively a 1Mbit connection is appalling value imo.
£37 for 5meg is even worse
---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------
whats even worse is i have 2 xbox360's (me and the kids) and a PS3, download any demo or map pack thats over the limit on say 10meg and thats it the service is knackered for the next 4 hours
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 16:25
I don't think a lot of people realise just how much you can download to get to 3gb most tv programmes are 350mb, films (unless they're DVDs) are 6/700mb - when do people get time to watch all this stuff if they're downloading all the time?
I don't think a lot of people realise just how much you can download to get to 3gb most tv programmes are 350mb, films (unless they're DVDs) are 6/700mb - when do people get time to watch all this stuff if they're downloading all the time?
you can watch while you download you know, thats not the point though, now VM is restricting and effecting how i use my service on something i have to pay premium rate for and effecting in other ways (xbox Live).
spankysmagicpian
03-05-2007, 16:30
Who on earth has got such a need to download at full pelt not only between 4 and midnight but all the time?
Are these people intent on backing up the internet onto their own PCs or just buy a lot of blank DVDs and like to do a lot of <cough> car boots each week?
brundles
03-05-2007, 16:33
I'm not asking for my connection to work full pelt between 4 and midnight, just that it's able to run over that time at a greater average speed than 512K across that period.
That number might seem extreme, but that's what 750MB total between 4 and midnight works out at.
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 16:35
you have to only download anything or stream something for 20 odd minutes and the service is cut after 4.00pm.. at 2Mb thats not that much... and my service will not return to 2Mb till 1.00am in the morning.. thats extreme punishment for 20 minutes at 2Mbit
asking people to pay more for a lesser service is what is happening
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 16:35
Thats not the point. The point here is advertising what is not true. Clearly VM broadband is now limited, so it needs to be sold as that.
Some letters to the regulator are in order I think.
Trying to get it through to people that vm are miselling their broadband is wasted here.
The words " head " and " wall " come to mind.
Who on earth has got such a need to download at full pelt not only between 4 and midnight but all the time?
Are these people intent on backing up the internet onto their own PCs or just buy a lot of blank DVDs and like to do a lot of <cough> car boots each week?
Go back under your rock, lol. Download at full pelt for 21 mins, whoo, that's a lot isn't it. Isn't that what you pay for? 20mb or 5mb? We ain't talking about £17.99 packages here either.
Why would anyone want 20mb? To make anyone who think 3gig is too much and then make you feel guilty.
I pay for something, now I can't use it even though I'm still paying for it.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 16:37
you can watch while you download you know, thats not the point though, now VM is restricting and effecting how i use my service on something i have to pay premium rate for and effecting in other ways (xbox Live).
easy answer change your service provider & good luck finding one that doesn't traffic shape or cap
spankysmagicpian
03-05-2007, 16:37
When you look at that way....I guess its not too good but... everyone is doing it more or less and I suppose we are lucky that VM are one of the last ones to implement it. :rolleyes:
easy answer change your service provider & good luck finding one that doesn't traffic shape or cap
:rolleyes:
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 16:38
I don't think a lot of people realise just how much you can download to get to 3gb most tv programmes are 350mb, films (unless they're DVDs) are 6/700mb - when do people get time to watch all this stuff if they're downloading all the time?
Should it matter when people are paying for it?
spankysmagicpian
03-05-2007, 16:40
Go back under your rock, lol. Download at full pelt for 21 mins, whoo, that's a lot isn't it. Isn't that what you pay for? 20mb or 5mb? We ain't talking about £17.99 packages here either.
Why would anyone want 20mb? To make anyone who think 3gig is too much and then make you feel guilty.
I pay for something, now I can't use it even though I'm still paying for it.
I'm talking about the previous no traffic management days (like prior to yesterday :D) that obviously prompted them to introduce this.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 16:41
easy answer change your service provider & good luck finding one that doesn't traffic shape or cap
Aslong as vm let people out with no penalty the money is better spent elsewhere, sorry but vm are ripping people off.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 16:41
Should it matter when people are paying for it?
no it shouldn't but most residential ISP's traffic manage or cap - & what is the obssession with downloading stuff in the evening - just set up stuff to download overnight or during the day - or be prepared to shell out the money for something like a leased line
I am a bit confused about the wording used.
"During peak times, the top 5% on the Size: XL package download at least 3GB of traffic each."
What is the significance of the "5%" figure?
Does it mean that only the top 5% of users going over 3GB will be affected, or everyone going over 3GB?
Yep, you pay premium rates compared to others and like i said for the 1st time its now effecting other legit premium services that i pay for, so much for the BB revolution. Not everyone wants 20meg but it seems that now the limits are so low on the other tiers if you actually want to get anything out of your service between peak times (when most users need it) you gonna have to pay for it and yet still be restricted in some way or form
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 16:43
no it shouldn't but most residential ISP's traffic manage or cap - & what is the obssession with downloading stuff in the evening - just set up stuff to download overnight or during the day - or be prepared to shell out the money for something like a leased line
And again I say vm need to drop the " unlimited broadband " BS.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 16:44
I am a bit confused about the wording used.
"During peak times, the top 5% on the Size: XL package download at least 3GB of traffic each."
What is the significance of the "5%" figure?
Does it mean that only the top 5% of users going over 3GB will be affected, or everyone going over 3GB?
no it means that out of say 100 users only 5 are downloading over 3gb of data & I think most of them must post on these boards ;)
Because a lot of legit people who share their connection (family) pay one of the highest rates for a service that used to be viable.
Now they've just made it unviable. But sweeten you up with a free (£2) upgrade to 20mb which again why? According you you why the need for 20mb? Browse?
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 16:44
Silly us!!! We should all go and get night jobs.. problem solved
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 16:46
Silly us!!! We should all go and get night jobs.. problem solved
I work during the day but still manage not to excessively download on an evening because I set up my downloads for overnight or during the day
I work during the day but still manage not to excessively download on an evening because I set up my downloads for overnight or during the day
So you go from slating heavy downloaders or anyone who download's over 3gig as illegal users as out of order, yet you say you 'set up' your downloads overnight / day? Something don't add up here.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 16:49
I work during the day but still manage not to excessively download on an evening because I set up my downloads for overnight or during the day
The whole point is that you are paying for an unlimited service, the time you choose to use the service is a seperate issue and in the context of the service you are paying for it should not matter the time of day.
I work during the day but still manage not to excessively download on an evening because I set up my downloads for overnight or during the day
i wish i can do that for xbox live, but sadly not, so i get restricted, great!
Gonna kill video on demand services from other providers, wonder if there's an argument to be made that Virgin are purposely cutting off their competition from streaming hi-def videos so they can flog their own service? Sky could have a Article 81 case of their own!
My take: I don't really care, I do think it's a bit crazy to say 21 mins of your connection use is excessive. Obviously the network cannot cope with the speeds if they are having to take such drastic measures. But I do all my downloading outside peak ours. But I honeslty don't see the point of 20mbit, the big attraction was streaming HD material and other stuff on demand. This is obviously no longer viable.
The point is on 20mb it works out to 21 mins of continous usage, not exactly much is it, this has to be now spread over 8 hours.
Is the point of 20mb is to open new doors, download those big huge demo's, more 360 demo's, legit (paid for) movies. What they have done is effectively took 2 steps forward and 3 steps back, but we still have to pay for it.
no it means that out of say 100 users only 5 are downloading over 3gb of data & I think most of them must post on these boards ;)
But that's not always the case is it. It wont always be 5% of customers downloading over 3GB, so why mention 5% when they are talking about thresholds?
The "top 5%" indicates to me that not everyone who goes over 3GB will be throttled, but as usual, it's as clear as mud.
Does this mean I can pay Virgin less? If I go over the trip limit and my connection speed is reduced, surely its only right that I should only pay a reduced amount for that time of reduced speed.
:angel:
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 16:55
So you go from slating heavy downloaders or anyone who download's over 3gig as illegal users as out of order, yet you say you 'set up' your downloads overnight / day? Something don't add up here.
I haven't slated heavy downloaders at all or said anyone is out of order - I just don't see why people are getting their knickers in a twist about this - it only affects 5% of BB users - so that 5% either need to look at how they download stuff or change provider
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 16:56
Does this mean I can pay Virgin less? If I go over the trip limit and my connection speed is reduced, surely its only right that I should only pay a reduced amount for that time of reduced speed.
:angel:
Only takes one person to challenge it, sales of goods act?
I haven't slated heavy downloaders at all or said anyone is out of order - I just don't see why people are getting their knickers in a twist about this - it only affects 5% of BB users - so that 5% either need to look at how they download stuff or change provider
You believe that?? The same people who think 3 gig is too much even when you pay for 20mb? Wake up.
If you download more than 3gig you are classed as in that 5% and that's how it will be.
I haven't slated heavy downloaders at all or said anyone is out of order - I just don't see why people are getting their knickers in a twist about this - it only affects 5% of BB users - so that 5% either need to look at how they download stuff or change provider
This is the statistic offered by the corporation introducing the shaping. I'm not saying it's incorrect, but they have no reason to report accurately.
People are getting frustrated by this purely because 21 mins of usage is considered excessive. And if only 5% of users download >3gb at peak time there is little consumer demand for 20mbit. The only people demanding it are those 5% who can make use of it.
And how can anyone on the lowest tariff be 'excesssive' and detrimental to others.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 17:02
You believe that?? The same people who think 3 gig is too much even when you pay for 20mb? Wake up.
If you download more than 3gig you are classed as in that 5% and that's how it will be.
but most residential ISP's have some sort of limits place - whether it be traffic shaping or caps - Sky's 8mb service has a 40gb a month cap thats less than 1.5gb a day :Yikes:
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 17:03
And how can anyone on the lowest tariff be 'excesssive' and detrimental to others.
By wanting to use the full capability of the speed 24/7 ;)
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 17:03
That 5% of users in a day is a lie.. each and every day for a week now i have downloaded nothing till 4.00pm when i start a download for testing ..lol that's how much of a heavy user i am... and after 20 minutes I get cut to 1Mbit... as i am right now, this minute.
My advice to everyone is to ring 150 and choose option 4.. the cancelation department.. and tell them you are leaving because of this, just watch how fast they talk you out of it and half your bill.
but most residential ISP's have some sort of limits place - whether it be traffic shaping or caps - Sky's 8mb service has a 40gb a month cap thats less than 1.5gb a day :Yikes:
I didn't sign up to those. I signed up to VM and paid for it, afterall it's costs to most out of every other ISP. Now they've decided to implement this, I didn't ask for it.
but most residential ISP's have some sort of limits place - whether it be traffic shaping or caps - Sky's 8mb service has a 40gb a month cap thats less than 1.5gb a day :Yikes:
And Sky charge 5 pounds a month for that ;-)
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 17:05
but most residential ISP's have some sort of limits place - whether it be traffic shaping or caps - Sky's 8mb service has a 40gb a month cap thats less than 1.5gb a day :Yikes:
yes but their 16Mbit service at £10.0o per month is unlimited and yet you failed to mention that... Mr. Virgin representative
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 17:07
but most residential ISP's have some sort of limits place - whether it be traffic shaping or caps - Sky's 8mb service has a 40gb a month cap thats less than 1.5gb a day :Yikes:
VM customers are paying vm, not sky or bt or whoever.
And atleast sky are stating a limit which helps the customer decide if it is to their needs.
---------- Post added at 17:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:05 ----------
That 5% of users in a day is a lie.. each and every day for a week now i have downloaded nothing till 4.00pm when i start a download for testing ..lol that's how much of a heavy user i am... and after 20 minutes I get cut to 1Mbit... as i am right now, this minute.
My advice to everyone is to ring 150 and choose option 4.. the cancelation department.. and tell them you are leaving because of this, just watch how fast they talk you out of it and half your bill.
Whats the number if you are not with vm for telephone?
brundles
03-05-2007, 17:12
This is the statistic offered by the corporation introducing the shaping. I'm not saying it's incorrect, but they have no reason to report accurately.
People are getting frustrated by this purely because 21 mins of usage is considered excessive. And if only 5% of users download >3gb at peak time there is little consumer demand for 20mbit. The only people demanding it are those 5% who can make use of it.
No demand for 20mbit? By artificially lowering the service level at peak times, they are attempting to create a demand for the expensive 20Meg product. (Which you'll only see run at 5MB).
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 17:14
arcamalpha2004.. i don't know the number off hand for non virgin phone.. maybe someone else can help.
again.. i advise everyone to ring up and threaten cancelation. I have no problem with traffic management in theory, but the way this has been implemented is draconian... the 5% in a day of highest users is an outright lie.. the truth is 20 minutes of downloading or streaming means your connection gets cut in half (edit corection as pointed out..'or quatered') for EVERYONE
I just called to cancel and the woman had no idea about the shaping. i told her it's for 21 mins use between 4pm and 12pm and she thought I was obviously incorrect because that isn't excesive.
Lolz, they could inform their staff to conform to their propaganda eh
the truth is 20 minutes of downloading or streaming means your connection gets cut in half for EVERYONE
Or a quarter. :(
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 17:17
How can she deny it, it's on their web page
Call centre monkey, prolly been barred access to the internet to increase the amount of calls she takes per hour.
Have to laugh they class 350 MB high usage on lowest teir yet someone on the highest teir gets to dl almost 10 times as much do they pay 10 times more no double so either the lwest teir should get a 1.5 GB limit of the top teir gets a 700 MB limit.
Not well thoguht out atall.
A few points from my perspective here
- I don't mind if they 'manage' traffic - as a heavy user I do understand my usage may be out of the ordinary (but recently found out not so much!), but the manner in which they've gone about it seems terribly hamfisted.
- Reducing the upload speed so much is actually a bigger deal than reducing the download speeds. For example 5mb with a 256 upload is going to make anyone trying to download AND use a transmitting application such as online games / voip (and of course p2p) is going to suffer from terrible latency issues.
- Capping the 4MB product after 750 meg is an utter joke. Online gaming for several hours will easily consume that much bandwidth, have a home network with multiple devices and it's nearly impossible to avoid the capping. And that's without even being a newsgroup hound...
- The cap seems (from my reading of it) to be based on your usage that day. That is someone who is a habitual downloader (okay me) can chill out for one night and be okay, but be on a binge every other waking hour. Someone who never utilises the beauty of newsgroups decides to download a couple playstation 3 demos from their online store and boom capped. How is that fair?!
Basically Virgin have every right - and indeed imo the responsibility to ensure their network is not congested by abnormal users going boonta. What they have done instead is taken a lazy, cheap approach and essentially given EVERYONE not just the magic 5% they bandy about a usage limit between 4 and 11.
It's not fair, it's not targeting the right users and it's not enough.
I would rather have a finite cap that I can manage and have the speed when I want it, than some ludicrous cripple cap that is impossible even with reasonable usage to avoid.
I don't mind being capped, but not like this.
Adios Virgin in September...
Just got off the phone with retentions. I'm still on my minimum 12 month contract so they wouldn't cancel it. He said it's not a big enough change of service and that they've had terms and conditions in the contract which make it all fine and dandy.
Er.... the FUP said it's unlimited before. This is a new term in the contract and therefore I should be able to terminate it. But Virgin aren't palying fair.
He also spoke blatent lies. Said Sky's max service has a 60gb a month cap. Said the Virgin limit was 6gb and insisted bandwidth was cut in half not a quarter. Also said Virgin have fastest broadband in the UK and I wont get faster anywhere else. This kind of mis-selling is dishonest and unlawful if it induces you to stay in the contract (misrepresentation). Next time I call to cancel, I'll be recording the call and suing for damages.
well this makes me even more angry with VM
just announced
Xbox 360 Video Marketplace Due In Europe In 2007
In an exclusive interview, Robin Burrowes, the UK’s Xbox Live Product Manager, declares that he’s on a mission to bring the Xbox Live video marketplace to Europe this year. He states: “We hope to have some content that hits in 2007”. For the full inteview and all the latest details, press the link.
News Source: http://www.gamerzines.com/pdf/360zine_6.pdf
well thanks VM, whats the point of BB and paying xbox live and not being able to use it
nofrills
03-05-2007, 18:20
Just caught up with this after seeing my speeds cut by exactly half for the 2nd time this week. Not a happy bunny at all, still need to read up on any limits if there is that info but I haven't used the connection enough to warrant this. If I am deemed to it is crazy and unreasonable and perhaps time to cancel if I can get ADSL2 locally, which is a shame because cable broadband has been great til now, but I don't want to pay for a 10mbit connection and be physically capped at 5mbit. Not what I thought I had paid for.. :(
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 18:35
yes but their 16Mbit service at £10.0o per month is unlimited and yet you failed to mention that... Mr. Virgin representative
1) I am not a Virgin representitve ot a Mr for that matter
2) A lot of people can not get the full 16mb because of the distance from the exchange
3) Unlimited until you become and "excessive" user in their eyes according to the fair use policy
4) You don't like what VM are doing then change service providers or change your downloading habits
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 18:40
1) I am not a Virgin representitve ot a Mr for that matter
2) A lot of people can not get the full 16mb because of the distance from the exchange
3) Unlimited until you become and "excessive" user in their eyes according to the fair use policy
4) You don't like what VM are doing then change service providers or change your downloading habits
1) yeh right
2) I bet they still get more than 1Mbit for £10.00 a month
3) I bet they still get more than 1Mbit for £10.00 a month
4) working on it (wip), the whole lot will have to go.. sky have a nice 5 step plan to get rid of Virgin without any disruption to my service
4) You don't like what VM are doing then change service providers or change your downloading habits
Can't, they won't let me terminate my contract because I'm still within the 12 month minimum. I'd be happy to jump over to Sky, which has a cap of about 200gb a month last I checked.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 18:46
1) yeh right
2) I bet they still get more than 1Mbit for £10.00 a month
3) I bet they still get more than 1Mbit for £10.00 a month
4) working on it (wip), the whole lot will have to go.. sky have a nice 5 step plan to get rid of Virgin without any disruption to my service
No really I DO NOT WORK FOR VIRGIN & I AM NOT A MAN
any way 3gb a night is equal to 90gb a month & you will still be able to download more than 3gb but it will just be S L O W E R
Hope you're happy with Sky and their "Fair Use Policy" that doesn't actually specify what they consider excessive
boodykaka
03-05-2007, 18:47
1) I am not a Virgin representitve ot a Mr for that matter
2) A lot of people can not get the full 16mb because of the distance from the exchange
3) Unlimited until you become and "excessive" user in their eyes according to the fair use policy
4) You don't like what VM are doing then change service providers or change your downloading habits
Calm down Gladys everyone has their points & I have to say VM talk a load of B.S , I know this first hand, they have also not been fully honest when advertising unlimited BB , the average punter would never know anything about their FUP
I'm pretty sure they've worded the agreements such that 'traffic management' isn't a cause for contract termination.
But lauded that over people who are ****ed off is not going to inspire any loyalty when that 12 mth contract _does_ end.
Mine's finishing in September, and I'll be taking all my current Virgin services with me, I'm going to need a bt line anyway for dsl, so I can't see any reason I'd keep my tele and phone with Virgin.
any way 3gb a night is equal to 90gb a month & you will still be able to download more than 3gb but it will just be S L O W E R
3GB per night is plenty imo. But those of us on the 4MB plan get 750 meg before being crippled which is, frankly, utterly ridiculous.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 18:49
Calm down Gladys everyone has their points & I have to say VM talk a load of B.S , I know this first hand, they have also not been fully honest when advertising unlimited BB , the average punter would never know anything about their FUP
I agree everyone has a point including me - also I don't think the average punter is going to be affected by their FUP
3GB per night is plenty imo. But those of us on the 4MB plan get 750 meg before being crippled which is, frankly, utterly ridiculous.
Not half even the poor 2 Mbit getting 350 is taking the ****. Anyone think somne suit just thought of a number???
boodykaka
03-05-2007, 18:55
I agree everyone has a point including me - also I don't think the average punter is going to be affected by their FUP
In your opinion which you are entitled to , but that does not mean that you should assume that everyone else on this board agrees with you
In your opinion which you are entitled to , but that does not mean that you should assume that everyone else on this board agrees with you
I refer the honourable gentleman to his own statement.... ;)
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 19:00
No really I DO NOT WORK FOR VIRGIN & I AM NOT A MAN
any way 3gb a night is equal to 90gb a month & you will still be able to download more than 3gb but it will just be S L O W E R
Hope you're happy with Sky and their "Fair Use Policy" that doesn't actually specify what they consider excessive
please let us pay more for less.. oh sorry that is what you are already saying
Perhaps they should now advertise it as
"Broadband limited when you want it unlimited when you dont."
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 19:07
In your opinion which you are entitled to , but that does not mean that you should assume that everyone else on this board agrees with you
no & it does not mean that people should assume that everyone disagrees with me - I have no problem with the traffic shaping - yes I download but I do my downloading overnight and during the day - from the figures stated traffic shaping is only going to affect 5% of bb subscribers - has anyone considered that VM might just be doing the same as Sky has with their TV subscribers - they could be trying to get rid of the people that expect to max out their connection 24/7 at the detriment of other users - I am happy to pay my money to VM for their services and am happy with the services I receive - people will vote with their feet and if they don't like what Virgin they can change - ok they may have to wait until the end of their 12 month contracts but thats the same as every company - at work we've had to wait 6 month to change our ISP
I agree in some respects that its an attemtp to get rid of the high downloaders. But why set such low levels on the lower services???? Are they just making sure the big boys down downgrade?
3 GB level for all.
no & it does not mean that people should assume that everyone disagrees with me - I have no problem with the traffic shaping - yes I download but I do my downloading overnight and during the day - from the figures stated traffic shaping is only going to affect 5% of bb subscribers - has anyone considered that VM might just be doing the same as Sky has with their TV subscribers - they could be trying to get rid of the people that expect to max out their connection 24/7 at the detriment of other users - I am happy to pay my money to VM for their services and am happy with the services I receive - people will vote with their feet and if they don't like what Virgin they can change - ok they may have to wait until the end of their 12 month contracts but thats the same as every company - at work we've had to wait 6 month to change our ISP
Thats not the stupid point thoug. If you love Virgin Media thats up to you, there is plenty that dont have have the right to complain and this is one reason. They are not ofereing unlimited broadband at a limited range from 4-12PM wether you like it or not and wether you get capped or not. They advertise as unlimited and it is not unlimited no more.
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 19:14
Man i wish i could find that button that allows me to download something a 3.00am in the morning while I'm asleep.. could someone please help me ?
Man i wish i could find that button that allows me to download something a 3.00am in the morning while I'm asleep.. could someone please help me ?
Get an alarm clock :p:
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 19:17
Man i wish i could find that button that allows me to download something a 3.00am in the morning while I'm asleep.. could someone please help me ?
you could always start you downloads before you go to bed and switch off your pc in the morning
you could always start you downloads before you go to bed and switch off your pc in the morning
And i should keep my computer on overnight why? Im paying for an unlimited service so why should i have to do that.
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 19:23
you could always start you downloads before you go to bed and switch off your pc in the morning
what about global warming!!!
The answer is rip off Britanain again. What is the down load speen in in South Korea or Sweden again?
kibblerok
03-05-2007, 19:27
I just called to cancel and the woman had no idea about the shaping. i told her it's for 21 mins use between 4pm and 12pm and she thought I was obviously incorrect because that isn't excesive.
Lolz, they could inform their staff to conform to their propaganda eh
They sent out an email about it yesterday... although the article on the Intranet is well hidden away. I could only access it following the email link.
Staff comments on the story were very unfavourable.
I feel sorry for you guys, gonna have lots of angry geeks phoning you!
Berezovski
03-05-2007, 19:44
The answer is rip off Britanain again. What is the down load speen in in South Korea or Sweden again?
The new Virgin throttling terms have been written in Branson's trade mark "frank/straight" talk . He is Britain's top rip-off merchant, never sold anything of substance...
---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------
I feel sorry for you guys, gonna have lots of angry geeks phoning you!
You don't have to be angry mate, call retentions 0800 052 9403 option 3 and tell them how much you loved "Traffic Shaping", getting rid of those music lovers downloading rap
and
you were very exited in losing the basic sky channels and then
invite them to to do some "Bill shaping" themselves
take 25 quid off for traffic shaping
take 5 quid off for the basic sky
take 10 quid off for the stupid red button on the movie channels
take 5 quid off that I could see WBA PLAY because a different red button no working
take 5 quid for pixelation of the sport channels
Let's make VirginMedia PAY (It's NTL remember ;), they are technologically incompetent )
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 20:02
lol... though you forgot the 'charge to the the next minute' extra phone charge
boodykaka
03-05-2007, 20:09
dont forget about the 6p connection charge
Just out of interest and if it's been asked already then sorry for that, but what about the poor s**s who have had ther mac cloned, they get shaped for no fault of there own?. Getting VM to admit it has been cloned is a nightmare i know been through it mesen for weeks...
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 20:36
cloned or not.. 20 minutes at full speed and your knackered till 1.00am in the morning.... the top 5% of users a day quote from the official statement is complete bull****
Mark_2k7
03-05-2007, 20:44
is this s*** in every area or just a few at the minute cause i have downloaded about 5 or 6gb today an speed is still fine
Thu, 03 May 2007 19:41:34 GMT
1st 512K took 453 ms = 1130.2 KB/sec, approx 9313 Kbps, 9.09 Mbps
2nd 512K took 422 ms = 1213.3 KB/sec, approx 9998 Kbps, 9.76 Mbps
3rd 512K took 437 ms = 1171.6 KB/sec, approx 9654 Kbps, 9.43 Mbps
4th 512K took 438 ms = 1169 KB/sec, approx 9633 Kbps, 9.41 Mbps
Overall Average Speed = approx 9650 Kbps, 9.42 Mbps
is this s*** in every area or just a few at the minute cause i have downloaded about 5 or 6gb today an speed is still fine
Try downloading 3gig after 4pm onwards.
Mark_2k7
03-05-2007, 20:49
Try downloading 3gig after 4pm onwards.
i like a challenge il try that now;)
after reading the new terms isnt it a bit of a coincidence that its introduced the same week itv announce the broadband tv replay service.
Its very suspicious to me that they introduce the capped service just when they launch the 20mb service its as if they knew the network couldnt cope so they introduce caps
None of the uk ISPs seem to have recognised that useage patterns are changing or at least they dont know what to do about it so instead they impose restrictions.
supercyber
03-05-2007, 21:04
hey all,
i just thought reply to this as well, i am on the BB XL which is 10mbit now soon to be 20MB cant wait for that.
i am heavey user between 15-25gig a day average, plus PBX/Asterix VOIP 24/7 got no problems.
i usually download at evening after 3 mostely, and i get normal speed with no shaping what so ever to this date.
brundles
03-05-2007, 21:07
hey all,
i just thought reply to this as well, i am on the BB XL which is 10mbit now soon to be 20MB cant wait for that.
i am heavey user between 15-25gig a day average, plus PBX/Asterix VOIP 24/7 got no problems.
i usually download at evening after 3 mostely, and i get normal speed with no shaping what so ever to this date.
Well you're in for a shock then :(. According to the link, STM will be implemented as the 20mbit upgrades are done. Those on 10mbit now won't be shaped, but those in an area that has been upgraded to 20 are now being shaped.
This is the first time I'm glad our area is at the end of the list!
Mark_2k7
03-05-2007, 21:11
i would have downloaded well over the 3gb from 4pm and my speeds are still the same
Mark_2k7
03-05-2007, 21:16
no mate cant wait il prob get it last:mad:
brundles
03-05-2007, 21:17
no mate cant wait il prob get it last:mad:
See above - in this case that's not a bad thing. The STM isn't introduced until they upgrade your area to 20...
Mark_2k7
03-05-2007, 21:20
See above - in this case that's not a bad thing. The STM isn't introduced until they upgrade your area to 20...
ah sorry didnt see that:dozey: so thats when the fun begins:mad:
nofrills
03-05-2007, 21:24
Well you're in for a shock then :(. According to the link, STM will be implemented as the 20mbit upgrades are done. Those on 10mbit now won't be shaped, but those in an area that has been upgraded to 20 are now being shaped.
This is the first time I'm glad our area is at the end of the list!
Sadly that can't be true, I'm on the Peterborough UBR which hasn't been upgraded and have experienced this traffic shaping a couple of times in the past week :(
The 20meg better have a reasonable/no cap and throttling down to 10 rather than 5!
Wicked_and_Crazy
03-05-2007, 21:29
looks like ive been capped at 2mb from 4mb
my modem shows Maximum Downstream Data Rate : 4096000
But im only getting a 2mb connection on speed test
Was getting no connection at all so had to reboot and now im getting only 2mb
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 21:37
question.. how does Richard Branson recognise his pants ?
his are the ones with the swastika printed on the front.
please richard , please let me pay you £18.00 pounds a month for a 1Mbit connection ... please let me.. i insist.. you must let me.. i will die if i cannot pay you £18.00's a month for 1mbit... i will be greatful for ever and worship your oddly cross shaped under pants... that smile.. it's a trusting smile .. please let me pay you more money.. in fact could you put my children into slavery.. as a token of my undying groveltude to your greatness..please just smile your virgin trusting smile and all will be great with the world.... all hail sir richard.. all hail sir richard
Sirpingalot
03-05-2007, 21:41
Sign me up too!
Rapid_UK
03-05-2007, 21:43
Complete ******** really.
In my House there is:
My PC
My Brothers Laptop
My Mum's Laptop
My Xbox 360
My Brothers Xbox 360
I have Joost on My PC which I assume uses quite a bit of Bandwidth.
Not to mention the amount of updates WE ALL have to download every day for Virus Programs etc etc.
Its completely Retarded.
Look at the size of Hard Drives Nowa Days, a 1TB HDD Is being released soon. If they think 3GB is huge, then they should take a loot at them drives.
well well well virgin media are officially going down the swanny with this decision come on vm users its time to take a stand and leave these cowboys at once i want ntl back NOW
i think the virgin media bosses have been reading the koran to much of late :(
shame on you
allah shagbar.
Rapid_UK
03-05-2007, 21:50
Im seriously Contemplating righting a Bot which will just constantly Fill this form out and send complaints to Virgin along the lines of "TRAFFIC SHAPING SUCKS, GO AND DIE"
http://help2.virginmedia.com/assets/html/customer_feedback/customer_feedback_querytype_1.html
At the very least we should all fill it out, then pick up the phone and spam that too. Send a couple of letter bombs whilst your at it too.
Oh, and could Virgin not just upgrade thier hardware, and make it more capable of handling 5% of excessive users, then the "Information Superhighway" wouldnt get "clogged". ???
Im seriously Contemplating righting a Bot which will just constantly Fill this form out and send complaints to Virgin along the lines of "TRAFFIC SHAPING SUCKS, GO AND DIE"
http://help2.virginmedia.com/assets/html/customer_feedback/customer_feedback_querytype_1.html
At the very least we should all fill it out, then pick up the phone and spam that too. Send a couple of letter bombs whilst your at it too.
hey m8
go and make me a bot aswell please ill gladly join in :)
lets all flee these idiots who took ntl away it was obvious this was going to happen from the minuete they changed to virgin media
when my 12 months are long gone im deffo going to be off i think you lot should seriously think about this too were getting ripped off now :(
if 20 mbit wasnt introduced no traffic shaping would of occured
thery should of updated there boxes and sorted out 10 mbit b4 jum,ping on the horse and rolling out the UNLIMITED 20 mbit
idiots lets leave them.
kibblerok
03-05-2007, 21:57
looks like ive been capped at 2mb from 4mb
my modem shows Maximum Downstream Data Rate : 4096000
But im only getting a 2mb connection on speed test
Was getting no connection at all so had to reboot and now im getting only 2mb
Management is done on the UBR, so config will show your normal speed.
I'm planning to really make use of my unlimited connection in protest. I happily kept my downloads between 00:00-06:00, however this is profiteering and I'm annoyed that I couldn cancel my contract. So will be downloading Blu-ray images @ 30gb each instead of the 4gb compressed versions.
dontpannic
03-05-2007, 22:02
well well well virgin media are officially going down the swanny with this decision come on vm users its time to take a stand and leave these cowboys at once i want ntl back NOW
i think the virgin media bosses have been reading the koran to much of late :(
shame on you
allah shagbar.
See earlier in the thread - if you can't be bothered, here it is again:
NTL:TELEWEST BOUGHT VIRGIN MOBILE, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND
What you are seeing here is NTL under a new name...
Unless you are an illegal peer to peer user, or a user that should be on a business line, this won't affect you. Anyway, 10meg broadband is STILL higher than the majority of ADSL connections, so why are you complaining? Traffic Shaping will only be targeting people who hog bandwidth and make the service worse for other people on the same UBR. I occasionally download from P2P, but only after midnight, only small amounts, and who cares if it's 10 or 20 meg? Still damn quick!
See earlier in the thread - if you can't be bothered, here it is again:
NTL:TELEWEST BOUGHT VIRGIN MOBILE, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND
What you are seeing here is NTL under a new name...
Unless you are an illegal peer to peer user, or a user that should be on a business line, this won't affect you. Anyway, 10meg broadband is STILL higher than the majority of ADSL connections, so why are you complaining? Traffic Shaping will only be targeting people who hog bandwidth and make the service worse for other people on the same UBR. I occasionally download from P2P, but only after midnight, only small amounts, and who cares if it's 10 or 20 meg? Still damn quick!
Of course its going to affect people.
What about those on 2MB and 4MB who only have 750MB at the most before there speed is halfed? These people also have numerous computers or games consoles in the house connected to the internet.
NTL:TELEWEST BOUGHT VIRGIN MOBILE, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND
What you are seeing here is NTL under a new name...
A rose by any other name eh?
I have to say that whilst I was somewhat behind them on this shaping, the upload shaping is what's annoyed me about all this, as if the upload bandwidth wasn't already substandard.
I'm actually seriously considering getting Be* for a bit to see what I can expect from ADSL, (Not too close to the exchange, but not too far) and AFAIK the tie-in for the higher packages is only 3 months (As oppose to the normal 12 month contract)
Yah, that's the good thing. 3 month contract. I'm gonna go for Be Pro. Prolly be able to get 12mbit down and 2.5mbit up. Rather have that than 20mbit down and 768k up.
I'm planning to really make use of my unlimited connection in protest. I happily kept my downloads between 00:00-06:00, however this is profiteering and I'm annoyed that I couldn cancel my contract. So will be downloading Blu-ray images @ 30gb each instead of the 4gb compressed versions.
i wouldn't bother just downloading at off -peak times, carry on 24/7 after all thats what the restriction on peak times is for, VM have cut their own throats in a funny sort of way because now they just cannot throw you off their service for effecting other users because they have throttled you anyway so you cannot be effecting other users can you, lol
Yah that's what I meant, I used to be off-peak now I'll max out my line whenever I want downloading blu-ray images. I'll just use my Sky connection to browse with and max out upload/download with Virgin.
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 22:38
Yah that's what I meant, I used to be off-peak now I'll max out my line whenever I want downloading blu-ray images. I'll just use my Sky connection to browse with and max out upload/download with Virgin.
if you can afford to pay for two BB providers why not just go to one that truely is "unlimited" & please pass the name of that provider onto to the other 5% that max out their connections during peak times
Rapid_UK
03-05-2007, 22:41
I just Downloaded 500mb of porn in the last 30 minutes.
Are they seriously trying to deprive me of porn after ive got 750mb of it ??
THE SWINES.
if you can afford to pay for two BB providers why not just go to one that truely is "unlimited" & please pass the name of that provider onto to the other 5% that max out their connections during peak times
why should he, as from now the 5% can download at max throttle instead, it isn't effecting you anymore. I used to download during the day so people like you can enjoy your BB in the evenings, but now seeing that i'm going to reach the limit all to easy, i ain't going to bother anymore and shall just download what i want when i want
Wicked_and_Crazy
03-05-2007, 22:48
Management is done on the UBR, so config will show your normal speed.
Whats it linked to? Your IP addr or the MAC of the modem?
If i change my IP will the cap be lifted?
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 22:48
why should he, as from now the 5% can download at max throttle instead, it isn't effecting you anymore. I used to download during the day so people like you can enjoy your BB in the evenings, but now seeing that i'm going to reach the limit all to easy, i ain't going to bother anymore and shall just download what i want when i want
I download as well but I download during the day or overnight - what I don't do is max out my connection on an evening, every evening & if it's only 5% of VM BB customers how many people is this actually going to affect - most people probably won't even notice
Mark_2k7
03-05-2007, 22:51
why should he, as from now the 5% can download at max throttle instead, it isn't effecting you anymore. I used to download during the day so people like you can enjoy your BB in the evenings, but now seeing that i'm going to reach the limit all to easy, i ain't going to bother anymore and shall just download what i want when i want
thats the spirit thats all do it to f*** them off. we are payin well over the odds for our broadband so we should be able to download at full speed an as much as we like
Pogo stick
03-05-2007, 22:54
why should he, as from now the 5% can download at max throttle instead, it isn't effecting you anymore. I used to download during the day so people like you can enjoy your BB in the evenings, but now seeing that i'm going to reach the limit all to easy, i ain't going to bother anymore and shall just download what i want when i want
Yah that's what I meant, I used to be off-peak now I'll max out my line whenever I want downloading blu-ray images. I'll just use my Sky connection to browse with and max out upload/download with Virgin.
Am I the only one that hopes that these guys, along with the other P2P users on this thread, do leave VM for their mythical "unlimited" BB Holy Grail and then the rest of us can have full speed back again.
If you're unhappy then please leave at the first opportunity, the rest of us will then get a much better service without you.
yes but their 16Mbit service at £10.0o per month is unlimited and yet you failed to mention that... Mr. Virgin representative
it has a fair use of about 250 to 350Gig per month depending on what forums you go to, so it isnt unlimited per se
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 22:56
Am I the only one that hopes that these guys, along with the other P2P users on this thread, do leave VM for their mythical "unlimited" BB Holy Grail and then the rest of us can have full speed back again.
If you're unhappy then please leave at the first opportunity, the rest of us will then get a much better service without you.
watever pal
welwynrose
03-05-2007, 23:04
Am I the only one that hopes that these guys, along with the other P2P users on this thread, do leave VM for their mythical "unlimited" BB Holy Grail and then the rest of us can have full speed back again.
If you're unhappy then please leave at the first opportunity, the rest of us will then get a much better service without you.
well I am p2p user but I don't do it during peak times maybe some of these people need what we have a work a 2mb leased line that cost £1800 a quarter
well I am p2p user but I don't do it during peak times ...
You may as well do it all the time now - Virgin won't mind, and now that Virgin have announced what they consider excessive use, I wonder how many users will push their connections as close to that limit during peak times just so they 'are getting what they pay for'.
I can see it all grinding to a halt.
Am I the only one that hopes that these guys, along with the other P2P users on this thread, do leave VM for their mythical "unlimited" BB Holy Grail and then the rest of us can have full speed back again.
If you're unhappy then please leave at the first opportunity, the rest of us will then get a much better service without you.
i don't use P2P, i don't download all day, but i willl download during peak times now, it won't even effect you VM has already said so thats why we are being throttled. So i will use it when i want now and if you think that the 5% will move on and you'll suddenly get your cap/speed unthrottled then dream on.
You may as well do it all the time now - Virgin won't mind, and now that Virgin have announced what they consider excessive use, I wonder how many users will push their connections as close to that limit during peak times just so they 'are getting what they pay for'.
I can see it all grinding to a halt.
So you think 3Gig is a lot as well then. :rolleyes:
meangreenie
03-05-2007, 23:35
LOL.. at that pathetic rigged atempt at a vote
vote...
1)would you like to have your internet connection halved but pay the same money (edit..'or more') ?
or
2) no i would like to pay double but only have access to 2 pages of da net a day 1111!!!!!!
... 2) .. for the win ... alriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... let me vote 10 times for de win1111
edit.. note, sarcasm quotes not included
Foo Fighter
03-05-2007, 23:37
Well this is great news, i better anticipate what i want to download so i i'll just download random crap all day in spite!
saying that i have been downloading junk all day to see if i'd be throttled and nothing im still hitting 4mb...
edit: if they did the oposite between 1-6am and make 2mb>5mb and 4mb>10mb and 20mb>50mb i'd happily download things over night and have the pc auto shutdown.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 23:46
what about global warming!!!
Precisely, green richard has not thought this one through has he? all those computers left on longer now to download :erm:
Doing his bit for the environment :td:
I am a bit confused about the wording used.
"During peak times, the top 5% on the Size: XL package download at least 3GB of traffic each."
What is the significance of the "5%" figure?
Does it mean that only the top 5% of users going over 3GB will be affected, or everyone going over 3GB?
The significance of the 5% figure is that (according to Ignition, an ex-member who worked at NTL for years) 5% of Virgin's users are using more bandwidth than the other 95% of users combined.
Aslong as vm let people out with no penalty the money is better spent elsewhere, sorry but vm are ripping people off.
If you have had bad service from NTL/Virgin for as long as you appear to have, how come you are still with them?
if you can afford to pay for two BB providers why not just go to one that truely is "unlimited" & please pass the name of that provider onto to the other 5% that max out their connections during peak times
Sky's free. I use it for web-browsing at prime time cause Virgin's too slow.
arcamalpha2004
03-05-2007, 23:59
Just got off the phone with retentions. I'm still on my minimum 12 month contract so they wouldn't cancel it. He said it's not a big enough change of service and that they've had terms and conditions in the contract which make it all fine and dandy.
Er.... the FUP said it's unlimited before. This is a new term in the contract and therefore I should be able to terminate it. But Virgin aren't palying fair.
He also spoke blatent lies. Said Sky's max service has a 60gb a month cap. Said the Virgin limit was 6gb and insisted bandwidth was cut in half not a quarter. Also said Virgin have fastest broadband in the UK and I wont get faster anywhere else. This kind of mis-selling is dishonest and unlawful if it induces you to stay in the contract (misrepresentation). Next time I call to cancel, I'll be recording the call and suing for damages.
If this is a new term in the contract then the customer should be notified.
On being notified you either ( a ) do nothing about it, and so are seen by vm as accepting their new conditions or ( b ) give them 30 days notice of cancellation of bb.
If they try it on take it through the small claims court route, they will settle before it gets that far.
Vm cs will fill your ears with BS if you are a willing listener.
---------- Post added at 23:59 ---------- Previous post was at 23:56 ----------
The significance of the 5% figure is that (according to Ignition, an ex-member who worked at NTL for years) 5% of Virgin's users are using more bandwidth than the other 95% of users combined.
If you have had bad service from NTL/Virgin for as long as you appear to have, how come you are still with them?
I do not have to justify my custom with vm with you or anyone, but given the recent draconian rip off change to their contract things may be changing, by the way, having an account with a company does not mean I have to toe the line unlike some on here.
Yah I know I can easily get out of it. But the point is they wont play nice. If they introduce shaping, I really dont care about the actual shaping it's the principle that they wouldn't let me leave quickly and easily that annoys me.
They also promised me a month's free 10mbit to try out and continued to charge me for 10mbit, by the time i found out I'd been billed 10mbit for 2 months in a row and coudln't down grade without notice.
I do not have to justify my custom with vm with you or anyone, but given the recent draconian rip off change to their contract things may be changing, by the way, having an account with a company does not mean I have to toe the line unlike some on here.
No you don't have to justify your choice of provider with me or anyone else. However, you've spent a lot of time on here complaining about NTL, yet are still paying them money. If any company treats me as badly as NTL/Virgin apparently have you, I tend to find another supplier. I certainly wouldn't stay with them.
For the love of god, Virgin won't let people leave! I don't want to stay with them.
meangreenie
04-05-2007, 00:09
Exactly, if you tell them you want to leave, they almost attack you physically to stay.. so why the provication ? nons..sish ?
obviously doesn't apply to the poor sub 12 monthers.. they will treat you as the '****e they think you deserve' untill the 12 months is up.. then it's, "but we are nice really..honest; no we wouldn't make up ****e just to keep you..honest!"... including false polls on hardly read froums
The dude at retentions said to me "I don't understand why they offer that HD VoD service when no one in the UK could possibly use it". I explained to him that yes, you could use it with Sky, Be or any of the other ADSL2 providers that sync @10mbit and he then he got really agressive.
If NTL want to shed their image, they need to retrain their staff.
They don't let you leave if you are in the first 12 months of your contract (although if you are desperate enough to, they sometimes let you buy your way out, although that's expensive), but after that, you just need to give 30 days notice (preferably written), and flatly refuse any offers retentions give you.
arcamalpha2004
04-05-2007, 00:18
No you don't have to justify your choice of provider with me or anyone else. However, you've spent a lot of time on here complaining about NTL, yet are still paying them money. If any company treats me as badly as NTL/Virgin apparently have you, I tend to find another supplier. I certainly wouldn't stay with them.
Before vm decided to announce this shaping decision, by the way where is the notification in writing from them about this decision? I was reasonably happy with the BB, vm do themselves no favours with the reputation they have already, ntl has barely been rebranded a year and the old ghosts are still in the machinery.
I get your logic though, have me cancel the only service I have from them then I cannot have a gripe.... nah :erm:
However it is dressed people are being ripped off, but if they decide to allow people to leave without penalty then all the people who are not bothered by the shaping will have what they want and the others can find another provider, but hang on, vm want to max the money they take through pretence and so do not allow the get out.
Before vm decided to announce this shaping decision, by the way where is the notification in writing from them about this decision? I was reasonably happy with the BB, vm do themselves no favours with the reputation they have already, ntl has barely been rebranded a year and the old ghosts are still in the machinery.
I get your logic though, have me cancel the only service I have from them then I cannot have a gripe.... nah :erm:
However it is dressed people are being ripped off, but if they decide to allow people to leave without penalty then all the people who are not bothered by the shaping will have what they want and the others can find another provider, but hang on, vm want to max the money they take through pretence and so do not allow the get out.
My logic is simple. If I think any company is ripping me off, or I can get a better deal elsewhere, I go to another company. As I did when I cancelled my Virgin broadband connection and went with Be.
Yeah I really don't understand their thinking, I mean if you're within 12 months - fine - you're stuck with them. But it makes no sense at all in a market that is increasingly saturated to actively **** OFF your customers unnecessarily.
This shaping business as I've said I'm okay with. I don't particularly think in my product's case 750mb is at all enough to last 8 hours, and I'll vote with my feet in September. But surely when I call up their accounts to talk about it, the people being spoken to should know what's going on, what the reasoning is behind it, and what the customer can/can't do about it.
This whole process has been poorly managed from the outset with little to no communication to customer services let alone the customers themselves.
While you're not going to have your average punters on 10/20 MB products, you are on the 2 and 4 meg ones. And even for those I have trouble buying that 350/750 megs is only done by 5% of customers. Perhaps as a mean average over a year or something, but I bet the mode average would be somewhat different.
And that's the problem here, I do think these targets should be historic in nature. Habitual downloaders that go crazy every night should be capped - no question. But the people who do 1-2 gigs or so every so often, but not every night, is it fair that they have their accounts crippled?
It seems Virgin have implemented the least sophisticated (read cheapest) traffic management system they can to cut network usage to facilitate their on demand and 20mb+ headline products. In order to attract new customers I think they are succeding in alienating quite a few, and increasing numbers of as big bandwidth applications become the norm of their existing customers.
It's like spending a fortune to increase their marketshare by 5-10% meanwhile losing 10-15% of what they already had.
Craziness.
arcamalpha2004
04-05-2007, 00:34
My logic is simple. If I think any company is ripping me off, or I can get a better deal elsewhere, I go to another company. As I did when I cancelled my Virgin broadband connection and went with Be.
And as I said stuart, if vm having brought in the shaping now ditch the unlimited broadband advertising and offer customers a get out with no penalty because of their stance then that is fine by me.
But sadly people who have only just signed up with vm pre shaping have not got that choice have they?
Mark_2k7
04-05-2007, 00:47
And as I said stuart, if vm having brought in the shaping now ditch the unlimited broadband advertising and offer customers a get out with no penalty because of their stance then that is fine by me.
But sadly people who have only just signed up with vm pre shaping have not got that choice have they?
everyone has a choice in my eyes 12 month contract in this day an age dont mean a thing. what can they really do about it, take you to court i think not lets just say that there would be a s*** load of people in court for a stupid reason. an im sure with the war with sky at the minute they would be more than happy to take on vm customers
well this issue not just affecting P2p. Its just caused me huge headaches of access issues which suddenly went away at 12-30.
My crime writing on a forum like this and just doing a couple streams and playing on my ps3. I cannot believe the stupidity of VM to make it so tight that even moderate sensible use during the 4pm-12pm rule can on 2meg hit easily hit a rubbish set limit.
By the way it does not just throttle I had websites actually denied access. Guess what those blocked website have now just unlocked at about 12-30.
I can now post on the PS3 forum. My PS3 which could not access the web can now sign in.
This is the most stupid idea who thought it up should be shot. YES I am all for sharing the internet and doing something to stop those heavy users. However VM get your money out and get more servers and stop over subscribing then the problem will go away. If not drop everybody's charge by half as we are only getting half baked service even when only moderately use.
Chrysalis
04-05-2007, 04:14
Read the link on page 4 and decided to not read the 12 pages in between but I am making a point here that VM are not as bad as other isps.
1 - The shaping limits are defined so everyone knows where they stand and isnt protocol discriminated.
2 - The higher tiers have higher shaping and kicks in later after more downloaded.
3 - The shaping is temporary.
I think the way things are in the uk we possibly moving to a stage where broadband will be defined in 2 speeds, one speed for peak times and another for off peak times.
The Jackal
04-05-2007, 04:50
Just found out about this... so this is happening ?
Well done Virgin Media !
I can now open up internet explorer read the news on the BBC and everything is so much faster. Thank you and your boffins for restricting those users who blantly download too much and spoil it for other like me.
Many many many thanks,
Yours -
One very happy customer.
ps If it's not too much bother can you also please restrict packets to DNS, SSL and HTTP so that only web pages can be viewed during peak hours - after all the internet is just Internet Explorer - right ?
pps Will Richard Bardston be shutting down the internet on bank holiday monday ?
:rolleyes: The option to emigrate grows stronger by the day.
---------- Post added at 04:22 ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 ----------
At this rate 56K modems will be back in demand.
Still got mine... Any takers for it ? £200inc NO OFFERS
---------- Post added at 04:50 ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 ----------
g00gles for " cable modem mac address cloning "
This could be a fun little project.
I'm in favour of traffic shaping and the way it's been designed seems fair. However, the download limits before STM is triggered seem a little low on the two lowest tiers. I wonder if VM have considered the possible consequences of setting those limits so low may be that M and L package users might migrate to XL, maybe for the same prices courtesy of retentions, and start a vicious circle. Or maybe that's the intention?
The Jackal
04-05-2007, 05:14
@Horace yup : I agree with you - I'm on the lowest tier and so a simple download or upgrade of an OS will throttle me.
LOL Modded Modems are already on the bay :
Mod edit (Gavin): Links to illegal modems are prohibited here
Trouble is if I were to clone a mac would I need to hard or soft reset the Cable modem ?
I too think some shaping is necessary but a bit more thought should have been given. Then again I've been in meetings with Virgin Execs and WHAT A BUNCH OF THICK NARROW MINDED ******S they are - so I understand how this mess has come about.
---------- Post added at 05:14 ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 ----------
Best sleep early day 2morrow.
Anyway had a read and there are PCI cable modem cards and even routers (http://www.superwarehouse.com/Linksys_Etherfast_Cable_Modem_Ethernet_and_USB/BEFCMU10/p/55517)
which could potentially be flashed.
Basic plan is to put my router distribution onto one of these things and just monitor bandwidth as soon as router sees itself being throttled it changes the MAC address and reboots (reboot time of a custom built router would be seconds but might even get lucky with a dynamic mac change ?)
Then buy the 20meg service and REALLY p**s virgin off :)
Berezovski
04-05-2007, 05:26
g00gles for " cable modem mac address cloning "
This could be a fun little project.
Does NTL's dhcp server gives the same ip address to two identical macs?
I know there is no problem having two identical macs hooked up.
How does one find macs to clone? I tough you can no longer sniff the ubr...
---------- Post added at 05:26 ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 ----------
@Horace yup : I agree with you - I'm on the lowest tier and so a simple download or upgrade of an OS will throttle me.
LOL Modded Modems are already on the bay :
<removed>
Trouble is if I were to clone a mac would I need to hard or soft reset the Cable modem ?
That means the 5% that download the most, they will keep doing so. Another technologically stupid thing by VM (NTL in heart)...
Another absurdity that shows this is nothing but profiteering is that if you're limited at 23:59, you will be limited for the next 4 hours. Exactly who's service will you be effecting between 00:00-04:00?
Does NTL's dhcp server gives the same ip address to two identical macs?
I know there is no problem having two identical macs hooked up.
How does one find macs to clone? I tough you can no longer sniff the ubr...
---------- Post added at 05:26 ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 ----------
That means the 5% that download the most, they will keep doing so. Another technologically stupid thing by VM (NTL in heart)...
Well good luck with that and i hope you get caught and are disconnected at the cab when they find out. Having suffered a severe loss of service due to people using unauthorised modems it's no joke, you may not like Traffic Shaping but it doesnt give you the right to steal bandwidth i reported the ones in my area and had them disconnected at the cab so hopefully someone will do the same to you and others like you. It isnt rocket science to flash and clone a modem it took me less than 5 minutes to find it to point it out to NTL and have the thieves disconnected.:mad::mad::mad:
Hopefully they posted with their Virgin IP's so that the info can be forwarded into Virgin to prevent this.
DarkGashX
04-05-2007, 08:23
This is stupid! 3GB limit. WTF! How the hell are you supposted to do everything at night. That means I can't even watch 5 HD trailers on gametrailers.
This is stupid!
dontpannic
04-05-2007, 09:01
why should he, as from now the 5% can download at max throttle instead, it isn't effecting you anymore. I used to download during the day so people like you can enjoy your BB in the evenings, but now seeing that i'm going to reach the limit all to easy, i ain't going to bother anymore and shall just download what i want when i want
What on all thats mighty is that going to achieve? You're being throttled anyway so whats the point in still maxing your connection??
People, unless your doing stupid things this wont affect you, so stop using playground games to get your point across. What do you think would have more impact, what will make them more scared? You writing them a letter (:tu:) or downloading illegal blu-ray images at throttled speed? (:td:)
Another absurdity that shows this is nothing but profiteering is that if you're limited at 23:59, you will be limited for the next 4 hours. Exactly who's service will you be effecting between 00:00-04:00?
Very good point, but the way i read it was that you will be limited for the following 4 hours, up until midnight. Or is this not so?
dontpannic
04-05-2007, 09:15
LOL.. at that pathetic rigged atempt at a vote
vote...
1)would you like to have your internet connection halved but pay the same money (edit..'or more') ?
or
2) no i would like to pay double but only have access to 2 pages of da net a day 1111!!!!!!
... 2) .. for the win ... alriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... let me vote 10 times for de win1111
edit.. note, sarcasm quotes not included
I'll only start responding to this thread properly when you speak in sensible English with no bandwidth hammering l33t speak, thank you very much.
---------- Post added at 09:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------
@Horace yup : I agree with you - I'm on the lowest tier and so a simple download or upgrade of an OS will throttle me.
LOL Modded Modems are already on the bay :
Mod edit (Gavin): Links to illegal modems are prohibited here
Trouble is if I were to clone a mac would I need to hard or soft reset the Cable modem ?
I too think some shaping is necessary but a bit more thought should have been given. Then again I've been in meetings with Virgin Execs and WHAT A BUNCH OF THICK NARROW MINDED ******S they are - so I understand how this mess has come about.
---------- Post added at 05:14 ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 ----------
Best sleep early day 2morrow.
Anyway had a read and there are PCI cable modem cards and even routers (http://www.superwarehouse.com/Linksys_Etherfast_Cable_Modem_Ethernet_and_USB/BEFCMU10/p/55517)
which could potentially be flashed.
Basic plan is to put my router distribution onto one of these things and just monitor bandwidth as soon as router sees itself being throttled it changes the MAC address and reboots (reboot time of a custom built router would be seconds but might even get lucky with a dynamic mac change ?)
Then buy the 20meg service and REALLY p**s virgin off :)
You, sir deserve to be booted off of the Virgin Network. If you are going to try cloning HONEST internet users MAC addresses and depriving them of their connection. I hope that the Cable Forum Mods can find out your IP and report it to Virgin. You are probably one of the reasons that traffic shaping is being used.
Do yourself, and 95% of the Virgin network a favour and leave. Go to Be or Sky and let them deal with you - you'll soon see that the grass isn't greener on the other side.
I really despise people like you - cannot live by the rules so have to steal from others, it's not on. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
DieDieMyDarling
04-05-2007, 09:19
What on all thats mighty is that going to achieve? You're being throttled anyway so whats the point in still maxing your connection??
People, unless your doing stupid things this wont affect you, so stop using playground games to get your point across. What do you think would have more impact, what will make them more scared? You writing them a letter (:tu:) or downloading illegal blu-ray images at throttled speed? (:td:)
Using your connection at full speed for 20 odd minutes, between 4pm and midnight (the hours most people have access to their home computer, after work and before bed, is 'doing stupid things'?
I can understand some people defending VM to the death, but surely there has to be some common sense in your arguments?
The traffic shaping won't affect me as i'm a heavy downloader and do most of my downloading overnight, but the people who will be affected by this are casual users, people who probably don't download an awful lot over the period of a month, but do that downloading after work and before bed, as already mentioned in the thread, things like HD trailers, windows updates, game updates, are all much bigger than the M and L traffic management allowance.
Using your connection at full speed for 20 odd minutes, between 4pm and midnight (the hours most people have access to their home computer, after work and before bed, is 'doing stupid things'?
I can understand some people defending VM to the death, but surely there has to be some common sense in your arguments?
The traffic shaping won't affect me as i'm a heavy downloader and do most of my downloading overnight, but the people who will be affected by this are casual users, people who probably don't download an awful lot over the period of a month, but do that downloading after work and before bed, as already mentioned in the thread, things like HD trailers, windows updates, game updates, are all much bigger than the M and L traffic management allowance.
:tu: Exactly.
That this shaping is necessary, I think most can agree that it is and is reasonable. But the segment that is most affected is not the segment generally responsible for congestion. The way they have tiered the 'limits' suggests this is almost a marketing ploy to make the top speed tier more attractive. They must think too many people are comfortable with their 4mb or 2mb products they've made it such that if you use that product for more than an hour with any sort of serious application your connection is crippled.
Meanwhile the 10+ mb product has a realistic (virgin call it threshold but let's use it's real name) usage limit. 3Gs is PLENTY imo. But 350 and 750MB? Virgin are having a laugh.
"downloading illegal blu-ray images at throttled speed?"
Look, if you don't know anything about IP law, or the law in general quit pretending you do. Perhaps you should purchase yourself 'law for dummies' or something, because you obvioulsy need cluing up.
Seriously, I'm sick and tired of internet lawyers saying downloading is illegal without backing it up. Attempt to do some research before you spout corporate propaganda.
welwynrose
04-05-2007, 09:29
Sky's free. I use it for web-browsing at prime time cause Virgin's too slow.
& that's because 5% of users are cloggin up the system - hopefully with traffic shaping that will no longer be the case
No.
I just phoned up Telewest Business to ask about their business package and 10mbit. I said residental is 20mbit, are you guys upgrading soon? Her reply? No, our 10mbit is going to be faster than Virgin's 20mbit because they do not have enough capacity.
Useful info: anyone can go on business, upload is 768k download is 10mbit. It wont be going up to 20mbit but contention is far better.
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