View Full Version : Virgin not complying to ISPA agreement
Virgin is a member of the ISPA.
(1) An ISPA Member must not deliberately filter Internet traffic unless it makes available to its customers and users in a clear manner the nature of the filtering that takes place. The information provided must identify the form of filtering and the general criteria used to filter
http://www.ispa.org.uk/home/page_327.html
Virgin don't filter traffic...
shaping and filtering are completely different things.
Come in Chris, lets not get facts get in the way of a good rant.
Virgin don't filter traffic...
shaping and filtering are completely different things.
1) "filtering traffic" means materially blocking, filtering, modifying the content of, degrading the quality of, diverting the traffic to a different destination, or otherwise altering the information in Internet traffic passing through its systems.
:dozey:
---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------
Come in Chris, lets not get facts get in the way of a good rant.
I post the facts, you start the rant :D
Come in Chris, lets not get facts get in the way of a good rant.
:LOL: Indeed
papa smurf
10-04-2007, 19:56
is this just your opinion or do you have evidence of said deed @ paul h
is this just your opinion or do you have evidence of said deed
Is that question to Chris?
While what you say Paul is ambiguous, it does say this in the exclusions bit:
(3) Filtering or modification of service quality due to contention on contended links or connection failure due to server load.
That's shaping to me... So its excluded from the filtering category.
1) "filtering traffic" means materially blocking, filtering, modifying the content of, degrading the quality of, diverting the traffic to a different destination, or otherwise altering the information in Internet traffic passing through its systems.
:dozey:
---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------
I post the facts, you start the rant :D
Well. No, you haven't stated any facts. Virgin's traffic shaping does not alter or divert the traffic in any way. Yes, it delays it, but I don't believe this counts as filtering.
Unless you are seriously trying to tell me that slowing the connection is diverting the data or causes it to be altered?
---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:02 ----------
While what you say Paul is ambiguous, it does say this in the exclusions bit:
That's shaping to me... So its excluded from the filtering category.
Also,seeing as it does mention in Virgin's fair use policy that they may restrict heavy downloaders, it's worth pointing out the last exclusion on the page.
(5) Action against customers whose traffic are deemed to be in breach of the ISP’s Terms and Conditions or Fair Use Policy.
That's shaping to me... So its excluded from the filtering category.
It's not me they have to tell why they think they're not breaking the agreement. :)
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:10
They dont need to tell anyone if they are breaking the rules the ISPA will say something I doubt we will because I feel your wrong
May I suggest you respect the fact that there are a number of quite intelligent IT experts/enthusiasts on this site your not gonna blag us with bull plop
Well. No, you haven't stated any facts. Virgin's traffic shaping does not alter or divert the traffic in any way. Yes, it delays it, but I don't believe this counts as filtering.
Unless you are seriously trying to tell me that slowing the connection is diverting the data or causes it to be altered?
Are you seriously trying to tell me that by slowing the connection, isn't altering it?
It's not me they have to tell why they think they're not breaking the agreement. :)
You are the one that stated you think they are.
---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------
Are you seriously trying to tell me that by slowing the connection, isn't altering it?
Well. Yes. The clause you refer to refers to altering the data. I've done my Cisco qualifications. I can tell you, slowing the transit of data (or "shaping the traffic") does not alter the data at all.
To make it clear how ISPA define "filtering" in this Best Practices (note: that does mean they don't consider it mandatory for an ISP to follow this document).
(1) "filtering traffic" means materially blocking, filtering, modifying the content of, degrading the quality of, diverting the traffic to a different destination, or otherwise altering the information in Internet traffic passing through its systems.
So, even assuming they aren't covered by exclusing 5 (I posted this above), then Virgin do not stop people recieving traffic (block) , they do not filter it. They do not modify the content of it, or degrade the quality of it, divert it or alter it in anyway,
Must be some lonely bridges out there at the moment. If VM are breaking the rules by traffic shaping then just about all ISPs are also breaking the rules and the ISPA would have done something by now.
I think that this comes down to individual perception and which dictionary you use to define the word filter.
While most folks would acknowledge that a filter is something that stops or blocks, which is most likely how the ISPA are defining the term, some includein Paul H are within their rights to define a filter as something which slows passage through it.
Unfortunately though the argument falls down at this point. Virgin have admitted for a while that traffic shaping will happen, and no doubt when it is fully enforced nationally the information such as when you'll get shaped and what the name of the box doing it is called will be readily available.
Though I do seem to recall reading such information not only on here but on other sites some time ago ;)
May I suggest you respect the fact that there are a number of quite intelligent IT experts/enthusiasts on this site your not gonna blag us with bull plop
So does that mean I must be a car salesman? how about a bus driver? an unintelligent hairdresser from Essex?
It's not me they have to tell why they think they're not breaking the agreement. :)
They don't have to tell anyone, because they aren't breaking it? :confused: :confused:
I have to tell you though because you're the only one who seems to think they are breaking it?
I've done my Cisco qualifications. I can tell you, slowing the transit of data (or "shaping the traffic") does not alter the data at all.
I tell you mate, you're not even funny :p:
bull plop
There's a Bull Plop artist at work. ? :LOL:
I tell you mate, you're not even funny :p:
When I am trying to be, I usually am.
However, in this case I am serious.
I tell you mate, you're not even funny :p:
And you're no where near as smart as you like to think you are. Some people on this forum deserve respect others deserve to be labelled what they are.
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:21
So does that mean I must be a car salesman? how about a bus driver? an unintelligent hairdresser from Essex?
I have no idea but your talking bull plop and trying to manipulate facts to suit your argument. Frankly im sick of it seeing fools talking plop about subjects they know little or nothing about I dont know whether you know what your on about or not but I know what im on about.Ive made my view clear on traffic shaping if you dont like find an ISP that does not shape or have limits but I feel you may well struggle
So does that mean I must be a car salesman? how about a bus driver? an unintelligent hairdresser from Essex?
He never said anything of the sort. He is merely pointing out that you are trying to tell a bunch of people who are in a position to know what is right and wrong that they are wrong.
He never said anything of the sort. He is merely pointing out that you are trying to tell a bunch of people who are in a position to know what is right and wrong that they are wrong.
Yep, mostly all mods and Bill :LOL:
Can we all agree that Virgin is a member of the ISPA?
I have no idea but your talking bull plop and trying to manipulate facts to suit your argument. Frankly im sick of it seeing fools talking plop about subjects they know little or nothing about I dont know whether you know what your on about or not but I know what im on about.Ive made my view clear on traffic shaping if you dont like find an ISP that does not shape or have limits but I feel you may well struggle
why is this forum attracting them at the moment. There coming out from under the bridge far more these days. Global warming maybe ?
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:25
Yep, mostly all mods and Bill :LOL:
Yeah man im a Noob I know nothing
why is this forum attracting them at the moment. There coming out from under the bridge far more these days. Global warming maybe ?
I think they think they are directly talking to VM and feel we all feel sorry for them and will offer sympathy for there ignorance (on a subject im not name calling btw)
But im sorry they are wrong
jellybaby
10-04-2007, 20:25
why is this forum attracting them at the moment. There coming out from under the bridge far more these days. Global warming maybe ?
lol....gives me a good chuckle in the evenings though :p:
Yep, mostly all mods and Bill :LOL:
Nope. Gavin, Chris W and I are the only Mods. Everyone on this thread however has dealt with IT or networks (in Bill's case, the NTL cable network and BT's network) professionally.
Yeah man im a Noob I know nothing
Rusty perhaps but not a noob mate :D
Yeah man im a Noob I know nothing
No, I'm the Noob and the one who knows nothing. :dunce:
lol....gives me a good chuckle in the evenings though :p:
At least it another reason to try and stop global warming if it slow's down the bull plopping infestation.
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:29
No, I'm the Noob and the one who knows nothing. :dunce:
we all react better here if things are more chilled the more uptight a poster is the less likely the reader will be to take notice take that as a free tip mate
Can we all agree that Virgin is a member of the ISPA?
They are. However, that does not mean they have violated any agreement. From the document link
A Best Current Practice (BCP) document is a non mandatory recommendation representing what ISPA believes is best practice at the time of writing
So, this document is a recommendation, not a requirement.
Nope. Gavin, Chris and I are the only Mods. Everyone on this thread however has dealt with IT or networks (in Bill's case, the NTL cable network and BT's network) professionally.
:blush:
we all react better here if things are more chilled the more uptight a poster is the less likely the reader will be to take notice take that as a free tip mate
So I'm not only wrong, but I'm uptight now too? do you think I should go and lie down and wait for the doctor? :tiptoe:
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:39
im not allowed to say where I think you should go
NTLVictim
10-04-2007, 20:40
:blush:
Nope. Gavin, Chris W and I are the only Mods. Everyone on this thread however has dealt with IT or networks (in Bill's case, the NTL cable network and BT's network) professionally.
Isn't that a bit like taking the red-hot dagger out of your left eye, only to plunge it in to the right?
im not allowed to say where I think you should go
LOL Classic response ;) Maybe we should run a poll :disturbd:
im not allowed to say where I think you should go
Why not, you're 37 years old.
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:43
Why not, you're 37 years old.
working that out really shouldnt take a genius
anyway before I get dragged into a tit for tat slanging match im off to see if anyone wants some help on here ;)
Isn't that a bit like taking the red-hot dagger out of your left eye, only to plunge it in to the right?
Eh?
working that out really shouldnt take a genius
anyway before I get dragged into a tit for tat slanging match im off to see if anyone wants some help on here ;)
I get it now. I just read that bit about Mummy ;)
working that out really shouldnt take a genius
Well that should make it manageable for a certain person then ;)
anyway before I get dragged into a tit for tat slanging match im off to see if anyone wants some help on here ;)
Not many at the mo but the night is young.
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 20:45
could go and play chess on vista then lol
could go and play chess on vista then lol
:LOL: i have just unblocked someones posts and realised who the bull plop artist was. Nothing has changed then :D
:LOL: i have just unblocked someones posts and realised who the bull plop artist was. Nothing has changed then :D
Oh come on Bill. you keep telling people that you have me blocked but you replied to me the other day. :D
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34269257-post10.html
Oh come on Bill. you keep telling people that you have me blocked but you replied to me the other day. :D
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34269257-post10.html
Yes i had a moment of madness. But dont you worry i have been cured in time to read tonight's little anti Virgin Rant. Your really scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one. ;)
What you need to do is go and read up on the subject you have decided is the subject of the day . Then you will be able to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
Yes i had a moment of madness. But dont you worry i have been cured in time to read tonight's little anti Virgin Rant. Your really scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one. ;)
What you need to do is go and read up on the subject. Then you will be able to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
Is that a Westwood impression you're doing?
You want the 'Ignore' one Bill. not the 'Buddy' one Bill :tu:
Is this just another anti-virgin thread?
:argue:
Actually, to throw another iron in the fire, VM, and a number of other UK ISP's DO filter illegal content, that is, block access to content that the IWF (iwf.org.uk), deem to be illegal, such is Children abuse sites. And rightly so in my opinion.
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 21:36
Actually, to throw another iron in the fire, VM, and a number of other UK ISP's DO filter illegal content, that is, block access to content that the IWF (iwf.org.uk), deem to be illegal, such is Children abuse sites. And rightly so in my opinion.
obviously there will be clauses that will exclude certain subjects anyway.
Is this just another anti-virgin thread?
:argue:
That's the way it's looking from here. :erm:
obviously there will be clauses that will exclude certain subjects anyway.
Absolutely.
ISPA's guidelines aside, each ISP can make a moral or legal decision based on the lists that the IWF supply.
I wonder if those who think ISPA's guide means that Virgin is breaking the rules also dissagreed with ISPA's award to VM a couple of months ago?
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 21:41
That's the way it's looking from here. :erm:
so your actually admitting you just created a thread purely as an anti VM thread? thats bang out of order mate
this is a help section of the forum iirc not the place to just cause trouble
so your actually admitting you just created a thread purely as an anti VM thread? thats bang out of order mate
No I said "that's the way it looks from here" are you a solicitor in your spare time?
---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------
this is a help section of the forum iirc not the place to just cause trouble
You're so full of accusations :shocked:
I think for the sake of my sanity I'm gonna have to put our bridge dwelling pal on "ignore". To say that most of his posts have been pathetic drivel would be an understatement :(
so your actually admitting you just created a thread purely as an anti VM thread? thats bang out of order mate
this is a help section of the forum iirc not the place to just cause troubleHave you noticed how fast a green blob changes to red :LOL:
I think for the sake of my sanity I'm gonna have to put our bridge dwelling pal on "ignore". To say that most of his posts have been pathetic drivel would be an understatement :(
Am I not saying the right things back? isn't it going the way it should go? :Yikes:
---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------
Have you noticed how fast a green blob changes to red :LOL:
You want the 'motoring' section Bill. this is the wrong one :LOL:
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 22:02
Is this just another anti-virgin thread?
:argue:
That's the way it's looking from here. :erm:
im sorry but you started this thread and when asked if its an anti virgin thread you replied with a positive ergo you started an anti VM thread ipso facto ;)
---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------
You want the 'motoring' section Bill. this is the wrong one :LOL:
I think you need to lie down your all confused again.
im sorry but you started this thread and when asked if its an anti virgin thread you replied with a positive ergo you started an anti VM thread ipso facto ;)
I did not reply with a "positive ergo" you're accusations are again wrong :shocked:
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 22:12
Edit deleted....hehe I see what your doing trying to suck me in lol
Edit deleted....hehe I see what your doing trying to suck me in lol
I can see why you deleted your edit lol
so does this mean that on the motorway then when i cant go 70mph in the car and pay road tax etc that when there are traffic jams i can claim my road tax back because i cant got 70mph on the road?
zing_deleted
10-04-2007, 22:18
I can see why you deleted your edit lol
no I deleted my reply not an edit I put edit to show I have edited my post and deleted is what I done followed by my reason
so does this mean that on the motorway then when i cant go 70mph in the car and pay road tax etc that when there are traffic jams i can claim my road tax back because i cant got 70mph on the road?
Did you pay your road tax money to Virgin?
That's the way it's looking from here. :erm:
You started this thread!
:banghead: :knock:
Bored of this now.
Closed.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.