View Full Version : Virgin Media - not unlimited ?
Virgin Media has called on ADSL rivals to stop marketing their services as "unlimited", when fair use policies often mean they aren't.
Virgin is trialling bandwidth throttling in the north west, which it prefers to call traffic management.
Virgin market their service as unlimited, and they have a fair use policy too!
Who are they trying to fool with this nonsense, when they're doing exactly the same thing that they're accusing others of doing? Their own customers are complaining of selling it as an unlimited service and throttling them at the same time, which Virgin prefer to call it "traffic management" throttling is a restriction. It's a limitation!
I think they've really shot themselves in the foot with this nonsense and it will backfire on them. Their own users will and already are saying Pot kettle black and complaining of the throttling. None of this would have been aired as freely as it will be now.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/05/virgin_unlimited/
I think I need to adopt your "Confused, abused, and old" avatar/sig.
I know what you're trying to say, and I must admit I'm as confused as the next person. All I hear is VM saying you can download as much as you want (cable subscribers only), then some one mentions a aup/fup, this gets argued a bit to the point of even more confusion, then some one else pipes in with why the need to download those 3 whole distro's a month, meaning obviously the arguement of the legality of warez followed by over use of torrents with the lack up upload speed. Some one with add a little 'what about ADSL users' going back onto a different aup/fup with a 40gig limit and by then everyone is fast asleep, no better off than before you started :disturbd: :)
Yeah but...........
Virgin market their service as unlimited, and they have a fair use policy too!
Who are they trying to fool with this nonsense, when they're doing exactly the same thing that they're accusing others of doing? Their own customers are complaining of selling it as an unlimited service and throttling them at the same time, which Virgin prefer to call it "traffic management" throttling is a restriction. It's a limitation!
I think they've really shot themselves in the foot with this nonsense and it will backfire on them. Their own users will and already are saying Pot kettle black and complaining of the throttling. None of this would have been aired as freely as it will be now.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/05/virgin_unlimited/
I think what they mean are the ISPs whos fair usage policy basically says they cannot download more than X amount between the hours of 4pm and 11pm so basically they are atually putting a Firm limit on it. Where as i belive virgins is more about not affecting others, so as long as noone complains, they dont do anything.
I think what they mean are the ISPs whos fair usage policy basically says they cannot download more than X amount between the hours of 4pm and 11pm so basically they are atually putting a Firm limit on it. Where as i belive virgins is more about not affecting others, so as long as noone complains, they dont do anything.
No, sorry. it's all about this
"Many ISP's (Internet Service providers) are advertising Broadband with 'Unlimited' downloads. The majority of these services are not unlimited as in the providers fair usage policies they either cap the use at a defioned amount, or use an undefined criteria that only they know."
Virgin's is undefined criteria that only they know.
Customers have already made comments both in the the report and in the virgin groups. :)
Virgin Cable Broadband sold as 'UNLIMITED'
"You must not use the Services in any way that is unlawful or illegal or in any way to the detriment of other Internet users"
When does it become detrimental?
Virgin ADSL Broadband sold as 'UNLIMITED'
"Virgin Broadband offers unlimited usage, which is great if you like to download music and movies or just don't want to worry about monthly allowances or caps. However, if you download a lot, you need to know that we operate an Acceptable Use Policy,"
"if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service."
They're doing exactly what they're accusing other ISP's of doing, saying it's unlimited but having a limit hidden in the 'Fair Useage Policy'
I don't have any problem with any fair usage policy.
I don't have any problem with any fair usage policy.
I don't have a problem with them either, as long as they're fair and not intentionally hidden or unclear.
But I do have a problem with a company making believe that they don't have one, and it's only their competitors that do.
I don't have a problem with them either, as long as they're fair and not intentionally hidden or unclear.
But I do have a problem with a company making believe that they don't have one, and it's only their competitors that do.
VM call it traffic management, meaning that the ordinary user is not unfairly penalised by the heavy user during peak Internet times. (Puts on asbestos suite)
VM appear to be saying that ADSL suppliers should be more upfront in what their fair usage policy actually means. (Oh you know I'm gonna get flamed for this too)
It's a war of words really, especially now as VM are intending to expand their ADSL offering.
---------- Post added at 11:41 ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 ----------
Virgin ADSL Broadband sold as 'UNLIMITED'
"Virgin Broadband offers unlimited usage, which is great if you like to download music and movies or just don't want to worry about monthly allowances or caps. However, if you download a lot, you need to know that we operate an Acceptable Use Policy,"
"if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service."
They're doing exactly what they're accusing other ISP's of doing, saying it's unlimited but having a limit hidden in the 'Fair Useage Policy'
Uhmm....where did you get this from?
I tried the phrase "if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB)" in here (http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.html), which is the current non cable terms and conditions, and I couldn't find it.
Uhmm....where did you get this from?
I tried the phrase "if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB)" in here (http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.html), which is the current non cable terms and conditions, and I couldn't find it.
Thats because there is no 40 gig limit.
Some are just looking for another reason to Call out lets report them to the ASA.
NTLVictim
06-04-2007, 11:57
Found it! (http://www.virgin.net/allyours/faqs/broadband_faqs.html#usagepolicy)
Click on "Virgin broadband usage allowance guide"
And then "What is the fair usage policy"
Found it!:) (http://www.virgin.net/allyours/faqs/broadband_faqs.html#usagepolicy)
Can you link to the bit thats says what the limit is as in a figure. I cannot see the limit anywhere on that page .
All i see is this What are the allowances on Virgin Broadband? Unlimited Downloads
Virgin Broadband offers unlimited usage on all our broadband packages, which is great if you like to download music and movies or just don't want to worry about monthly allowances or caps. However, if you download a lot, you need to know that we operate an Acceptable Use Policy where we'll contact you if your usage begins to affect the service for other customers. Ok found it . What is the Acceptable Use Policy? For the vast majority of customers, our Unlimited Broadband service provides all the bandwidth a UK household needs and lets you surf all day and night and download hours and hours of music tracks and videos. However, we do operate an Acceptable Use Policy on Virgin Broadband. This is in place to prevent a very small number of customers downloading huge amounts of data which can affect the enjoyment of the service for others. The Acceptable Use Policy means that the service may not be suitable for businesses or those regularly using file sharing applications. Just as a guideline, if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service.
You do realise that this is for the ADSL Product i hope.
Cobbydaler
06-04-2007, 12:03
Here (http://www.virgin.net/allyours/faqs/broadband_faqs.html#usagepolicy)
What is the Acceptable Use Policy? For the vast majority of customers, our Unlimited Broadband service provides all the bandwidth a UK household needs and lets you surf all day and night and download hours and hours of music tracks and videos. However, we do operate an Acceptable Use Policy on Virgin Broadband. This is in place to prevent a very small number of customers downloading huge amounts of data which can affect the enjoyment of the service for others. The Acceptable Use Policy means that the service may not be suitable for businesses or those regularly using file sharing applications. Just as a guideline, if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service.
fatassmichael
06-04-2007, 12:04
Beaten to it!
I don't have any problem with any fair usage policy.
Ditto. :)
What is the Acceptable Use Policy?
For the vast majority of customers, our Unlimited Broadband service provides all the bandwidth a UK household needs and lets you surf all day and night and download hours and hours of music tracks and videos.
However, we do operate an Acceptable Use Policy on Virgin Broadband. This is in place to prevent a very small number of customers downloading huge amounts of data which can affect the enjoyment of the service for others. The Acceptable Use Policy means that the service may not be suitable for businesses or those regularly using file sharing applications.
Just as a guideline, if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service.
For all the nitty gritty on our Acceptable Use Policy, please see our Terms and Conditions
This is for the ADSL product not the Cable Modem service you do understand this
fatassmichael
06-04-2007, 12:11
Bill C
I knew it was for adsl, i was just pointing to it, as Paul H, in post no #4 reffered to it for adsl.
I for one dont have problems with aup/fup as long as its implemented properly.
Bill C
I knew it was for adsl, i was just pointing to it, as Paul H, in post no #4 reffered to it for adsl.
I for one dont have problems with aup/fup as long as its implemented properly.
Sorry i cannot see posts by that user. I have him on ignore due to his abusive remarks.
I can say now that there is no limit on the cable service as i downloaded 380 gig last month. That's in a house with 3 pc's and 5 users. Streaming video, Downloading HD content from newsgroups all tie up my bandwidth and replacing stuff lost from Sky one ;)
Traffic management, or throttling - you can still download "unlimited" amounts, it will just take longer.
There appears to be some confusion between bandwidth availability and quantity.
Traffic management, or throttling - you can still download "unlimited" amounts, it will just take longer.
There appears to be some confusion between bandwidth availability and quantity.
That is correct. Why some cannot understand that leaves me amazed. You can download all you want it just might be a bit slower at certain times of the day.
NTLVictim
06-04-2007, 12:29
A bit slower I can understand and live with..a LOT slower is goods or services not as described.
If the power supply to your house fluctuated to the point you couldn't cook a meal or watch TV or the PC kept falling over, you'd soon get the hump.
And yes Bill, I can read, there's no need to shout.:)
.
And yes Bill, I can read, there's no need to shout.:)
Sorry will edit it :)
A bit slower I can understand and live with..a LOT slower is goods or services not as described.
If the power supply to your house fluctuated to the point you couldn't cook a meal or watch TV or the PC kept falling over, you'd soon get the hump.
And yes Bill, I can read, there's no need to shout.:)
I like your metaphor, but it only extends so far - a lot of "heavy downloaders" download stuff that is copyrighted and not being paid for, which if we extend your metaphor, would make it difficult to complain if the food and the TV/PC was stolen. ;)
btw, there are only so many linux iso's in the world to be downloaded.:D
As part of another (unrelated) issue, I asked VM the question as to why they feel it necessary (within the North West only) to reduce the bandwidth at certain times of the day. The response I got was that it was due to the high amount of users within the area and the age of the equipment serving same.
It was intimated that this was only a temporary arrangement "whilst the infrastructure was being upgraded" to cater for the usage. Though the rep didn't actually say how long this would last for.
I also intimated that this practice was contrary to the terms and conditions of the service and VM were "technically" in breach of contract. The response to this was basically that the company policy would stand in this instance as the throttling exercise was only a pilot and not permanent.
Basically they've got you over a barrel.
Si thee
DieDieMyDarling
06-04-2007, 13:13
That is correct. Why some cannot understand that leaves me amazed. You can download all you want it just might be a bit slower at certain times of the day.
Isn't traffic shaping just another way of limiting the service though? Personally it doesn't affect me, as i do most of my downloading overnight, but what about the people who have paid for 10mb (soon to be 20mb), maybe only use their computer an hour a day, after work (teatime), but they can only download at say 3mb, that greatly limits how much they can download.
All ISPs will try to make out they're offering their customers the best possible thing going, and use clever wording to get around things they'd rather the customer didn't know/understand. But for one of these ISPs (VM) to come out against the others and make it look like they're the saviour is ridiculous, hypocritical and shows them up as very untrustworthy!
Btw, i'm not against traffic shaping (before people jump on the bandwagon :D ), i'm just against them not making it totally clear and upfront when people sign up, or via letters/emails to existing customers, so they know what they're getting for their money and can make an educated decision.
NTLVictim
06-04-2007, 13:35
Sorry will edit it :)
Thank you, you are obviously a Gentleman!
...The Power metaphor was good, wasn't it?:D
Thank you, you are obviously a Gentleman!
...The Power metaphor was good, wasn't it?:D
Indeed :D
xspeedyx
06-04-2007, 14:05
I think aslong as you can continue to download as much as you want the traffic shaping wont really be that bad but will see what they pull out there asses again
So I was right all along ;) #2
But the point has been missed in this thread (I think). Virgin has called other ASDL ISPs who class their products as 'Unlimited' but they ain't according to the small prints in the aup etc, VM has told them to stop advertising as such as it's out of order. Yet the point here that the OP was making is that VM are also doing exactly that themselves.
This is for ADSL (40gig a month).
I agree it doesn't sit well does it.
Dawn Falcon
06-04-2007, 16:17
That is correct. Why some cannot understand that leaves me amazed. You can download all you want it just might be a bit slower at certain times of the day.
Because of the definition of the word "limit", maybe?
Slashing my download speed in half is just as much of a limit as telling me there is a total per month. Virgin Media are entitled to set limits, but they should NOT then advertise as unlimited, and they should NOT lecture others for doing the same thing!
I'm sure BillC has me blocked for daring to point out the truth repeatedly as well. (Blah blah shill blah blah..)
Because of the definition of the word "limit", maybe?
Slashing my download speed in half is just as much of a limit as telling me there is a total per month. Virgin Media are entitled to set limits, but they should NOT then advertise as unlimited, and they should NOT lecture others for doing the same thing!
I'm sure BillC has me blocked for daring to point out the truth repeatedly as well. (Blah blah shill blah blah..)
No i just gave up trying to understand you ages ago
No i just gave up trying to understand you ages ago
Surely you understood what he said there though.
Because of the definition of the word "limit", maybe?
Actually, if you are going to use the dictionary definition of limit, then you would have to include speed as well. Seeing as unlimited speed is impossible (every system has physical limits on speed and cannot operate otherwise), then *no* ISP can offer an unlimited connection.
While Virgin may offer an unlimited connection, they do also advertise it as UP TO 10 meg.., so, legally at least, they are probably covered.
Surely you understood what he said there though.
I was talking in the general sense and not about that particular rant.
markosoft82
06-04-2007, 17:41
Because of the definition of the word "limit", maybe?
Slashing my download speed in half is just as much of a limit as telling me there is a total per month. Virgin Media are entitled to set limits, but they should NOT then advertise as unlimited, and they should NOT lecture others for doing the same thing!
I'm sure BillC has me blocked for daring to point out the truth repeatedly as well. (Blah blah shill blah blah..)
Technically it isn't the same as setting a limit, otherwise we all have a limit (days in month x 24 x 60 x 60 of the speed we have paid for). They may reduce speed, which can be annoying but sometimes unavoidable in VM's case due the oh so great infrastructure they have in place.
The hidden T&C limit though does make their recent PR campain against other ISPs a little cheeky....
VM call it traffic management, meaning that the ordinary user is not unfairly penalised by the heavy user during peak Internet times. (Puts on asbestos suite)
VM appear to be saying that ADSL suppliers should be more upfront in what their fair usage policy actually means. (Oh you know I'm gonna get flamed for this too)
It's a war of words really, especially now as VM are intending to expand their ADSL offering.
---------- Post added at 11:41 ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 ----------
Uhmm....where did you get this from?
I tried the phrase "if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB)" in here (http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.html), which is the current non cable terms and conditions, and I couldn't find it.
its a tricky one toto
use the http://search.virginmedia.com/results/?channel=homepage&q=%22if+you+download+more+than+around+40+Gigabytes +%28GB%29%22&cr=
its there but hidden with some html javascript trickery and cant be linked to directly (i tryed) do this
go here
http://www.virgin.net/allyours/faqs/broadband_faqs.html
then click Virgin Broadband usage allowance guide (http://javascript<b></b>:show_answer('quest7');)
then
What is the Acceptable Use Policy?
"
What is the Acceptable Use Policy?
For the vast majority of customers, our Unlimited Broadband service provides all the bandwidth a UK household needs and lets you surf all day and night and download hours and hours of music tracks and videos. However, we do operate an Acceptable Use Policy on Virgin Broadband. This is in place to prevent a very small number of customers downloading huge amounts of data which can affect the enjoyment of the service for others. The Acceptable Use Policy means that the service may not be suitable for businesses or those regularly using file sharing applications. Just as a guideline, if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service. For all the nitty gritty on our Acceptable Use Policy, please see our Terms and Conditions (http://www.virgin.net/terms/isp_tc.html). "
of course the T&C is the final document and if you care to read it its currently full of one sided non 'reciprocating' (applys to both partys equally)clauses that if it were to be challenged by the official body or indeed in the small claims county courts with an N1 FORM they would most probably be made null and void parts of the consumer contract.
the classic "in our reasonable opinion" being the main non 'reciprocating' point that will usually kill a clause dead as it does not include the other party ,You.
heres a direct link to the current cable T&C http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html
While Virgin may offer an unlimited connection, they do also advertise it as UP TO 10 meg.., so, legally at least, they are probably covered.
What makes them special then? Every ISP say's up to.
VM has told other ISPs to stop using the term 'unlimited' if they have a aup that states otherwise. Therefore VM are actually guilty themselves by their own charge.
Edit
Maybe they are covered in the sense of calling it 10mb, but I don't or can't see anywhere where that is in dispute.
I was talking in the general sense and not about that particular rant.
Oh ok sorry.
Odd that they quote an example of 40 Gb as an example of a breach of the User Policy for ADSL, and yet they do not say if its 40Gb in a day, week, month or year.
Has any any Virgin ADSL customer actually had one of these letters?
It might be possible to get part of your money back. I called CS yesterday when the speed was capped at 2Mb after downloading 1GB. They checked the settings and said I was indeed on 2Mb while I'm paying for 4Mb. When I called I didn't know about this limitation stuff yet see this thread (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33611876-4mb-connection-keeps-going-back-2mb.html). She then said she would only charge me for £12.50 for March because I had been on 2Mb according to her :D .
Try it and let us know how it goes.
I was indeed on 2Gb while I'm paying for 4Mb.
:Yikes: You shouldn't have told them!!! ;) :p:
:Yikes: You shouldn't have told them!!! ;) :p:
:dunce: corrected :)
NTLVictim
06-04-2007, 20:04
He? thought Dawn was a gurls name?
He? thought Dawn was a gurls name?
:LOL:
rogerdraig
06-04-2007, 20:35
I don't have any problem with any fair usage policy.
i dont either if they are honest to start with and not use the word "unlimited"
read through it again the other day you can see the point of illegal use etc but the idea of "oh its unlimited till you use to much is laughable"
and i cant see that being honest would hurt i would still sign up for this for example
"Unlimited outside of Peek hours ( insert peek hours here ) "
boodykaka
07-04-2007, 04:54
check this out
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/fairplay/index.html
check this out
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/fairplay/index.html
Checked ?
Now what ?
lostandconfused
07-04-2007, 18:24
looking at the website is does say unlimited downloads which is true, if you break the FUP you bandwidth is restricted but you can carry on downloading so it isnt limited.
You guys think you have it bad, you should try ADSL, some of the horror stories from Pipex users after they have downloaded 40gigs would make your hair stand on end.
Being throttled to 30kB/s for instance.
arcamalpha2004
07-04-2007, 21:42
I don't have any problem with any fair usage policy.
I neither, but they should not lie and say the service is unlimited, ie " you can download as much as you want unlike sky " this is what vm say, they are liars, and the sooner they are taken to task the better, 73% of customers wrongly believe they have unlimited broadband.
---------- Post added at 21:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------
looking at the website is does say unlimited downloads which is true, if you break the FUP you bandwidth is restricted but you can carry on downloading so it isnt limited.
But what vm is basically saying is " hey! you can download what you want, as many music tracks as you like, unlike sky"
Lies.
---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:11 ----------
Odd that they quote an example of 40 Gb as an example of a breach of the User Policy for ADSL, and yet they do not say if its 40Gb in a day, week, month or year.
Has any any Virgin ADSL customer actually had one of these letters?
Which is precisely the point, they say on one hand that it is unlimited, I am getting sick to the back teeth of the adverts now.
But hidden away in the t&c's " we will monitor your service "
They say they may restrict your account if you break the limit, what limit vm? is it 10 gb, 20gb, 30 gb? is that per day? per week? per day?
So sorry, unless the service truly is unlimited then no company should advertise theirs as unlimited, its so easy, but does not sound good does it if they are up front about what they really mean when you question their definition of unlimited.
---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------
That is correct. Why some cannot understand that leaves me amazed. You can download all you want it just might be a bit slower at certain times of the day.
So they are "limiting your service "
Thankyou bill, have a pint on me.;)
boodykaka
07-04-2007, 22:12
Checked ?
Now what ?
Cant remember now
arcamalpha2004
07-04-2007, 22:16
Cant remember now
This http://allyours.virginmedia.com/fairplay/index.html (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/fairplay/index.html) ;)
By the way, I agree ;)
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/fairplay/index.html
That page is now out of date. The "real price" of £30 ended on 31 March. What's the "real price" now?
Chrysalis
08-04-2007, 08:53
ADSL is a much worse situation then cable without a doubt, I think virgin dropped a small clanger here tho by doing this announcement whilst their ADSL company has a dodgy FUP.
The idea behind what they said isnt anything to do with throttling/shaping (which I think is still wrong in some cases) but rather that many adsl isps actually have hidden set limits. It is mainly a good move I think because the ASA is known not to care about consumer complaints but treats rival complaints more seriously, VM will know most of the ADSL isps will not be able to react by providing true unlimited for the prices they offer now and as such make the cable product more attractive, shame about the clanger on the adsl isp, if we can notice it a rival will and make the press aware.
As another point this won't apply to LLU providers such as BE and SKY who dont buy bandwidth from BT they just pay for exchange space and ports.
This is for the ADSL product not the Cable Modem service you do understand this
:confused:
Yep ADSL. Virgin say they are UNLIMITED but have a 40GB limit.
They are reported to be joining in the campaign to stop ISP's from advertising that they are UNLIMITED, but having a Fair Use Policy that says they're actually not.
Shocking isn't it :erm:
---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------
Because of the definition of the word "limit", maybe?
Slashing my download speed in half is just as much of a limit as telling me there is a total per month. Virgin Media are entitled to set limits, but they should NOT then advertise as unlimited, and they should NOT lecture others for doing the same thing!
I'm sure BillC has me blocked for daring to point out the truth repeatedly as well. (Blah blah shill blah blah..)
Bill works for Virgin doesn't he? ;)
---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------
Actually, if you are going to use the dictionary definition of limit, then you would have to include speed as well. Seeing as unlimited speed is impossible (every system has physical limits on speed and cannot operate otherwise), then *no* ISP can offer an unlimited connection.
What dictionary are you using?
Mine says UNLIMITED means 'not limited; unrestricted; Having no restrictions'
a 40GB limit is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED, throttling is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED.
---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------
What makes them special then? Every ISP say's up to.
VM has told other ISPs to stop using the term 'unlimited' if they have a aup that states otherwise. Therefore VM are actually guilty themselves by their own charge.
Edit
Maybe they are covered in the sense of calling it 10mb, but I don't or can't see anywhere where that is in dispute.
I agree! :clap:
---------- Post added at 13:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------
Checked ?
Now what ?
You laugh at them.
"Well, this is another example of Sky pulling the wool over consumers eyes"
" It seems that Sky are "forgetting" to mention"
"At Virgin Media, we don't believe in keeping secrets from our customers"
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
boodykaka
08-04-2007, 14:49
:confused:
Yep ADSL. Virgin say they are UNLIMITED but have a 40GB limit.
They are reported to be joining in the campaign to stop ISP's from advertising that they are UNLIMITED, but having a Fair Use Policy that says they're actually not.
Shocking isn't it :erm:
---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------
Bill works for Virgin doesn't he? ;)
---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------
What dictionary are you using?
Mine says UNLIMITED means 'not limited; unrestricted; Having no restrictions'
a 40GB limit is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED, throttling is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED.
---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------
I agree! :clap:
---------- Post added at 13:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------
You laugh at them.
"Well, this is another example of Sky pulling the wool over consumers eyes"
" It seems that Sky are "forgetting" to mention"
"At Virgin Media, we don't believe in keeping secrets from our customers"
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Game Set & Match ;) new ball's please
A small point, but it may be relevant - are the "heavy downloaders", who are being "throttled", illegally downloading stuff? So are they, in fact, complaining that they are not being allowed to steal stuff.
:LOL:
A small point, but it may be relevant - are the "heavy downloaders", who are being "throttled", illegally downloading stuff? So are they, in fact, complaining that they are not being allowed to steal stuff.
:LOL:
Waits for all the Linux ISO excuses from those without the guts to admit what they are doing.
Steve Kirk
08-04-2007, 15:27
Waits for all the Linux ISO excuses from those without the guts to admit what they are doing.
PPLive
PPStream
TVAnts
Sopcast
PPMate
TVU
VGO
Afreeca
PCast
TVKoo
Octoshape
Waits for all the Linux ISO excuses from those without the guts to admit what they are doing.
No thanks, I'd rather stay on topic. :LOL:
throttling is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED.Throttling is not a limit, it's a speed restriction, nothing more - a slower connection can still be unlimited. The fact a file takes 20 minutes to download instead of 2 minutes is not a limit.
If VM are only restricting the speed of heavy users then what they are saying is true, it's still unlimited. However, if VM are cutting people off then that's a different matter - do you have evidence/proof that customers are being cut off ?
What dictionary are you using?
Mine says UNLIMITED means 'not limited; unrestricted; Having no restrictions'
a 40GB limit is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED, throttling is a restriction to the service they sell as UNLIMITED.
The same one as you, apparently. I was making the point that a truly unlimited connection is impossible (the laws of physics prevent it from being possible).
The point is that on Cable at least, beyond speed (Which they state is limited), Virgin do NOT place any limits on how much you can download. It's also worth noting that Throttling is not yet active in all areas.
As for ADSL, well, has anyone actually hit the 40 gig limit is been stopped?
The same one as you, apparently. I was making the point that a truly unlimited connection is impossible (the laws of physics prevent it from being possible).
That sounds like nit picking to me.
They sell ADSL as 'unlimited' yet they have a aup that states if you go over 40gig (still doesn't determine is 40gig is the absolute limit, or is it daily/monthly etc) they will send you an email or letter or whatever. So they are saying treat it as unlimited and we'll tell you off.
Throttling is not a limit, it's a speed restriction, nothing more - a slower connection can still be unlimited. The fact a file takes 20 minutes to download instead of 2 minutes is not a limit.
If VM are only restricting the speed of heavy users then what they are saying is true, it's still unlimited. However, if VM are cutting people off then that's a different matter
We are drifting off topic.
do you have evidence/proof that customers are being cut off ?
Why are you asking me this for???
---------- Post added at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:59 ----------
As for ADSL, well, has anyone actually hit the 40 gig limit is been stopped?
Again?
---------- Post added at 16:06 ---------- Previous post was at 16:03 ----------
That sounds like nit picking to me.
They sell ADSL as 'unlimited' yet they have a aup that states if you go over 40gig (still doesn't determine is 40gig is the absolute limit, or is it daily/monthly etc) they will send you an email or letter or whatever. So they are saying treat it as unlimited and we'll tell you off.
And that is what this thread is supposed to be about.
UNLIMITED but having a Fair Use Policy with in Virgins case, having a 40GB limit. They chose that 40GB limit to go with their ADSL package. one minute it's download as much as you want, 'NO LIMIT' then it's but 40GB is the limit.
Seems some people just drift off topic too easily :sleep:
We are drifting off topic.
How so? You are saying the service is unlimited. Paul is saying that beyond speed, it is. That's not off topic at all.
Why are you asking me this for???
You do seem to be the most vocal critic. And, you were the Original Poster.
doesn't all isp follow the Fair Use Policy. just some isp's sell capped servies to make it cheaper for customer. i don't think VM don't cut customers off. Ive never came across one customer who has.
All the isp's ive worked for they have follow the fair use policy. I know Orange montored it over a 3 month peroid and then write to you asking to kept the usage down and if you don't they cut you off.
How so? You are saying the service is unlimited. Paul is saying that beyond speed, it is. That's not off topic at all.
I'm not saying the service is unlimited. I'm saying they're claiming it's unlimited. but having a fair use policy that says it's not really unlimited.
You do seem to be the most vocal critic. And, you were the Original Poster.
And? why ask me for evidence/proof of people being cut off? I didn't say they were. It's Virgin who said they'd cut them off.
if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service.
:cool:
doesn't all isp follow the Fair Use Policy. just some isp's sell capped servies to make it cheaper for customer. i don't think VM don't cut customers off. Ive never came across one customer who has.
All the isp's ive worked for they have follow the fair use policy. I know Orange montored it over a 3 month peroid and then write to you asking to kept the usage down and if you don't they cut you off.
Yes you're right, but the argument here is this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/05/virgin_unlimited/
VM has asked other ISP to stop labelling their services as 'Unlimited' yet VM are also guilty of the very same thing.
It's not about it being acceptable or fair, or who downloads what, or what speeds you get or when you can or can't download etc.
Just a straight forward pot kettle black contradiction, that's all.
Wasn't this thread called VM are pathetic or something, then changed to VM - not unlimited, isn't that wrongly labelled up for the purpose of the OPs 1st post. It has changed the emphasis of what the actual point is of this thread was about. If it was changed to something like "VM contradicts themselves" then things would stay on track.
doesn't all isp follow the Fair Use Policy. just some isp's sell capped servies to make it cheaper for customer. i don't think VM don't cut customers off. Ive never came across one customer who has.
All the isp's ive worked for they have follow the fair use policy. I know Orange montored it over a 3 month peroid and then write to you asking to kept the usage down and if you don't they cut you off.
I'll try and explain this clearly ;)
Virgin have put their name down on the campaign to make all ISPs stop advertising that they have UNLIMITED downloads and at the same time have a fair use policy that has limits for the UNLIMITED package. by doing this. many people will think that it must mean that Virgin don't have a fair use policy with a 40GB limit on their UNLIMITED packages. and it really must be UNLIMITED because they wouldn't join the campaign and make thmselves look silly would they. but they'd be wrong because Virgin have, and they're telling other ISPs off for doing the exact same thing that they do themselves!
It doesn't matter if the 40GB or whatever limits are enforced, just being there is all that matters.
I'm not saying the service is unlimited. I'm saying they're claiming it's unlimited. but having a fair use policy that says it's not really unlimited.
My apologies. I meant to say you were saying the service is limited. Paul's point was that the cable service, beyond speed, isn't.
And? why ask me for evidence/proof of people being cut off? I didn't say they were. It's Virgin who said they'd cut them off.
:cool:
They actually say they will in extreme circumstances. You appear to be assuming that when you hit 40 gig,they just cut you off.
Wasn't this thread called VM are pathetic or something, then changed to VM - not unlimited, isn't that wrongly labelled up for the purpose of the OPs 1st post. It has changed the emphasis of what the actual point is of this thread was about. If it was changed to something like "VM contradicts themselves" then things would stay on track.
I think changing the title of the thread has made it confusing. and I can see why that has made people confused as to what the thread is really about because it's confusing :Yikes:
---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------
My apologies.
Don't worry about it.
They actually say they will in extreme circumstances. You appear to be assuming that when you hit 40 gig,they just cut you off.
I am? I do? :confused:
The 40GB limit was removed as part of the rebranding according to Alex Brown
I guess it's possible that there may have been a hang over and some
slight delays in tidying up all processes, but the remaining usage
limits on ADSL were removed as part of the rebrand - to be able to
simply state that all our products are unlimited.
...
Alex Brown
Senior Product Manager
Product Management, Virgin Media
HTH
Tosh
The 40GB limit was removed as part of the rebranding according to Alex Brown
Thanks for the info, do you have a link for it?
I still see:
However, we do operate an Acceptable Use Policy on Virgin Broadband. This is in place to prevent a very small number of customers downloading huge amounts of data which can affect the enjoyment of the service for others. The Acceptable Use Policy means that the service may not be suitable for businesses or those regularly using file sharing applications.
Just as a guideline, if you download more than around 40 Gigabytes (GB), we'll post you a letter and send an email to ask you to reduce your usage. If, over time, your usage doesn't fall within this level, we'll call you and chat through our options which may, in extreme circumstances, including suspending or disconnecting your service.
I can't see NTL written there, so that aup is already part of the rebranding.
I can't see NTL written there, so that aup is already part of the rebranding.
It's got Virgin written all over the place! :)
You do realise that if they do pull this 40GB limit within the next few days, it's all just back tracking ;)
I still can't find where fishpie got that information from. Seems like he/she didn't want to supply a link to officiate it.
I still can't find where fishpie got that information from. Seems like he/she didn't want to supply a link to officiate it.
Cripes, give me a break, some of us have better things to do on a sunday :)
I thought I'd made it quite clear it was a direct quote from Alex Brown.
If for some reason you have reason not to believe me you should check out the thread "Why advertise unlimited when its not unlimited? 40Gb is not unlimited" on virginmedia.feedback
Message-ID: <h6vb139nstd418eou8rfm4rt1nlc3j206u@4ax.com>
HTH
Fishpie
I still can't find where fishpie got that information from. Seems like he/she didn't want to supply a link to officiate it.
Found it. pay attention to the date ;)
Group. virginmedia.feedback
Title. Why advertise unlimited when its not unlimited? 40Gb is not unlimited
So there is not a limit on ADSL? Why did I receive an email about my usage of over 40gb after the rebrand?
Alex Brown - 6th April 07
I guess it's possible that there may have been a hang over and some
slight delays in tidying up all processes, but the remaining usage
limits on ADSL were removed as part of the rebrand - to be able to
simply state that all our products are unlimited.
Backtracking! :td:
Thank you fishpie, nice one. I've found it on newsgroups. And in full it doesn't say much.
OK, for a start I work on the cable side of the business and not the
ADSL part, so I'm not as close to the ADSL product.
I guess it's possible that there may have been a hang over and some
slight delays in tidying up all processes, but the remaining usage
limits on ADSL were removed as part of the rebrand - to be able to
simply state that all our products are unlimited.
Tthere is however, an Acceptable Use Policy that states that you may
not use your service to the detriment of others, so an issue may have
been identified showing that your abnormally high usage was affecting
others - it's difficult for me to say any more though without knowing
the circumstances in your particular case.
Back to square one then, what is 'abnormally high usage' to get to the point where you are affecting others, again, on an unlimited product?
Back to square one then, what is 'abnormally high usage' to get to the point where you are affecting other, on an unlimited product?
Square one is here.
Cable incumbent Virgin Media has called on ADSL rivals to stop marketing their services as "unlimited", when fair use policies often mean they aren't.
As exclusive owner and operator of its infrastructure, Virgin is able to guarantee unlimited downloads, but told The Reg ADSL providers shouldn't try to do the same
If that is true then there shouldn't be a reason why as part of Virgin's fair use policy to talk about having a detrimental effect on other users. and if they know that high useage will affect others useage then why is it unlimited in the first place if being unlimited can cause these problems?
A small point, but it may be relevant - are the "heavy downloaders", who are being "throttled", illegally downloading stuff? So are they, in fact, complaining that they are not being allowed to steal stuff.
:LOL:
I download TV shows, mostly HD. This isn't illegal nor is it theft.
I download TV shows, mostly HD. This isn't illegal nor is it theft.
Well that really depends on whether you have the copyright holders permission. There are few services that offer legal download and playback of any TV program, iTunes is one that comes to mind.
Well that really depends on whether you have the copyright holders permission.
No it doesn't.
No it doesn't.
Err, yes it does... downloading TV shows in the UK is definitely illegal unless you're downloading them from the legal owners of the show or through authorised services licensed by the owners.
I do download TV shows though because I don't think it should be illegal to do so...
No it doesn't.
i think you will find it is
Does anyone else think we are going round and round in circles with this thread?
---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------
I download TV shows, mostly HD. This isn't illegal nor is it theft.
It is illegal and piracy is theft.
Does anyone else think we are going round and round in circles with this thread?
---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------
It is illegal and piracy is theft.
Yeah see Post #2 ;) :LOL:
No it doesn't.
I know what I am talking about here, believe me, it is....and copyright holders are measuring their losses in terms of P2P activity, and seeking thousands in damages.....from downloadrs and sharers.
I'm not just talking about aoftware here, I am talking about ALL copyright protected content.
ok so how is piracy related to wether vm is unlimited or not ?
ok so how is piracy related to wether vm is unlimited or not ?
Post #79
ok so how is piracy related to wether vm is unlimited or not ?
Strictly speaking, it isn't. Whether Virgin is unlimited or not is linked to how much people download. Strictly speaking what they download, whether legal or illegal, is off topic.
OK sorry, but in fairness, the point was raised, and I felt duty bound to relay some facts.
If Virgin implement the Traffic Management throughout it's network they will
have to advertise it's broadband services as 'limited' or 'limits apply'
They would then not be 'unlimited'
unless they can use another word other than 'limited' or 'limits apply'
is there another word they could use?
Somebody called Alex Brown who writes regularly in the VM newsgroups, who works for VM as some sort of product manager has said that traffic management does not mean that VM need to change their wording, perhaps you can talk in there to him about this.
This subject has been discussed to death, with no apparent change in VM's stance, we may as well move on.
Cobbydaler
20-04-2007, 22:17
Please ignore him...
Don't feed the Trolls....
Please ignore him...
Don't feed the Trolls....
Will you please cease the abuse on my person.
Enough of this people - stick to the topic or don't bother posting. Any more off topic posts or arguing is likely to attract warnings.
dcclanuk
04-05-2007, 15:49
ok, so with this TRAFFIC shaping and all, I think Virgin Media SHOULD NOT be allowed to use the word UNLIMITED!
Here's why. [Numbers are approximate]
Define Unlimited as download as much as you like.
In a month, I would like to download 622GB.... which I think would be the theoretical MAXIMUM on a 2mb line maxed out all the time.... [i could have a mistake calculating]
It would take me 25 mins to download 350mb, so from 4.25pm - 8.25pm each day I would be capped at 120KB/s. So my maximum each month can only be 570.24GB
So therefore it is NOT UNLIMITED, since I was not able to download what I would have liked to download, and should have been able to download with a 2mb service which is what is being paid for!
52GB a month is not much, being 8% less than my theoretical maximum, but for 20mb users, this percentage is mucccccch bigger.
Somebody called Alex Brown who writes regularly in the VM newsgroups, who works for VM as some sort of product manager has said that traffic management does not mean that VM need to change their wording, perhaps you can talk in there to him about this.
This subject has been discussed to death, with no apparent change in VM's stance, we may as well move on.
Here here :handshake
i think peoples expectations are out thats what causes the arguements etc regarding unlimited
yes in theory you could download 622Gig per month ona perfection conenction, say you are downloading from non newsgroups and the speed fluctuates, who are you goingto blame? VM or the server itself not having the capacity to supply the feed? so your overall amount you can theoretically download drops, now is that VM's fault? you are still getting an unlimited amount of data because they havent put a hard cap on it where you are only limited to XX amount of gig per month
should be able to and actually able to are different things altogether though
dcclanuk
04-05-2007, 16:08
i think peoples expectations are out thats what causes the arguements etc regarding unlimited
yes in theory you could download 622Gig per month ona perfection conenction, say you are downloading from non newsgroups and the speed fluctuates, who are you goingto blame? VM or the server itself not having the capacity to supply the feed? so your overall amount you can theoretically download drops, now is that VM's fault? you are still getting an unlimited amount of data because they havent put a hard cap on it where you are only limited to XX amount of gig per month
should be able to and actually able to are different things altogether though
yes they have, of 570GB. While I would never use anything like that amount.
yes they have, of 570GB. While I would never use anything like that amount.
where does it say that on http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html
arcamalpha2004
04-05-2007, 16:37
Somebody called Alex Brown who writes regularly in the VM newsgroups, who works for VM as some sort of product manager has said that traffic management does not mean that VM need to change their wording, perhaps you can talk in there to him about this.
This subject has been discussed to death, with no apparent change in VM's stance, we may as well move on.
Somebody called joe bloggs working for vm would say that would he not?
Somebody called joe bloggs working for vm would say that would he not?
Uhmm....well I don't know for certain if Joe Bloggs works for VM, but Alex Brown certainly does....get over to the virginmedia.feedback discussion group in USENET, you'll see him regularly post there.
Question him directly, see how you do?
arcamalpha2004
04-05-2007, 16:53
Uhmm....well I don't know for certain if Joe Bloggs works for VM, but Alex Brown certainly does....get over to the virginmedia.feedback discussion group in USENET, you'll see him regularly post there.
And as I said he would say that. ;)
Thanks for the offer dont want to polute my computer thanks :)
dcclanuk
04-05-2007, 16:58
where does it say that on http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html
see this post:
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34294006-post95.html
see this post:
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34294006-post95.html
so your saying a hard cap of 570 is in place on the server because of the shaping?
what woudl you rather then say here you can do 100gig all month at full speed but when you go over that youi pay ?
dcclanuk
04-05-2007, 17:25
so your saying a hard cap of 570 is in place on the server because of the shaping?
what woudl you rather then say here you can do 100gig all month at full speed but when you go over that youi pay ?
well ISNT IT COMMON SENSE? The max THEORETICAL download amount is 622GB. So if via the THROTTLING/SHAPING whatever it is it is now 570GB, I would call that a HARD CAP, SINCE U CANNOT EXCEED it [even tho it SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO].<<< i.e. 622GB p/m cannot be considered a HARD CAP since its not possible to exceed it on a 2mb line maxed out.
yes, 100GB p/m with NO USAGE RESTRICTIONS is something better than 350mb peak time limit!
I use 30GB/month total, so I would never exceed 100GB, but its better to have a FAIR CAP such as:
75GB
150GB
500GB
for the 3 tiers, where u can download upto the quota whenever u like. Then either have a system of paying ££Ã ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£ per GB above the quota, or warning system. 3 warnings, then either u upgrade, or if u are on the top tier then terminate the contract... i was gonna say get a MAC code but that doesnt apply here lol!
Sidewinder
28-05-2007, 06:47
i work for virgin media ADSL on the sales, and we are told in training to sale unlimited downloads, we are told to say there is that 40 GIG download limit if the customers ask, its a sorry situation and i hate to admit it, our whole company is a joke to be honest, and the whole of virgin media "off cable" is a **** take, we are not on par with our "on cable" side and told not to say many things to the customer that exist
i work for virgin media ADSL on the sales, and we are told in training to sale unlimited downloads, we are told to say there is that 40 GIG download limit if the customers ask, its a sorry situation and i hate to admit it, our whole company is a joke to be honest, and the whole of virgin media "off cable" is a **** take, we are not on par with our "on cable" side and told not to say many things to the customer that exist
Well, if an VM Sales person has: Sky, Sky Talk, Sky Broadband then I think it says a lot about VMs service. :angel:
Well, if an VM Sales person has: Sky, Sky Talk, Sky Broadband then I think it says a lot about VMs service. :angel:
indeed it does
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