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Gareth
19-03-2007, 01:26
So, now that the F1 season is under way again, let's have a thread to discuss the teams, the drivers, the cars, the races, etc.

Starting with the opening race... what a result for Lewis Hamilton. An unbelievable drive, and if it wasn't for the second pit stop, I think he could have pipped Alonso to 2nd place. Saying that, Alonso drove exceptionally well as well - as always. McLaren really do look like the team to watch this season.

Massa did well too, I thought. To come right from the back of the grid to finish 6th is no mean feat.

Hopefully Anthony Davidson will show his true potential as the season progresses - I'm not sure we really saw what he's capable of during today's race.

I wasn't paying too much attention to DC's crash - was it his fault, or did Wurz cut him up?

Roll on Malaysia on the 8th April. :)

homealone
19-03-2007, 02:12
DC made a move from too far back, which Wurz would not have been able to see, wurz took the line ........

Gareth
08-04-2007, 19:07
Another great race today - I do like the Sepang circuit.

Good result for McLaren and another brilliant performance by Hamilton. I think he's got what it takes to eventually be world champion.

Massa, on the other hand, was naff. The mistakes he made trying to take 2nd place were bad enough, but then he didn't even manage to regain 3rd. Ferrari are really gonna struggle this season, imo. Luckily Raikkonen is performing well, but having only 1 decent driver isn't going to help them.

homealone
08-04-2007, 19:49
I have to agree that Hamilton has looked awfully impressive, it looks like McLaren have a very competitive car & driver package.

I thought Heidfeld did well, also. That and a good performance by Rosberg/Williams will hopefully mean it won't always be a one or two car race, this season...

Gareth
08-04-2007, 23:59
Yes, Heidfeld did have a good race as well.

What are your thoughts on the new tyre regulations? I think it's a bad idea making a driver use both sets during a race. There are times when this isn't necessary - like today - and it ruins the race, imo.

I like the idea of only having one supplier, however, as it makes the playing field a bit more even. I never liked it when a better driver or car was impeded simply because their tyres weren't as performant as the other manufacturer's.

homealone
09-04-2007, 00:35
don't get me started on tyres ;)

in my opinion they should use one make of slick tyres, the soft_hard 'white groove' thing doesn't make any sense, to me :)

Gareth
15-04-2007, 13:02
F1 now on telly.... nice weather, food cooking, beers are already chilled - this is a perfect Sunday, let's just hope that Lewis can perform as well as he's done so far this season :cool:

Hom3r
15-04-2007, 15:25
race about to start

will Lewis win his first race?

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 ----------

Jensons out first lap

---------- Post added at 14:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

Hamilton makes F1 history by finishing on the podeum on his first three races.

He's also joint first in the drivers championship

iadom
10-06-2007, 23:44
Cannot believe this thread is so small, with a rookie British driver leading the championship. Todays race was certainly the most exciting to date. The horrific crash of Kubica from which he emerged with only a broken leg was truly amazing, the sheer strength of these cars is beyond belief.

Jim.

homealone
11-06-2007, 00:13
Cannot believe this thread is so small, with a rookie British driver leading the championship. Todays race was certainly the most exciting to date. The horrific crash of Kubica from which he emerged with only a broken leg was truly amazing, the sheer strength of these cars is beyond belief.

Jim.

It usually is an incident packed race at Montreal & today was no exception - in some ways for the wrong reasons, the walls, the bumps & the dodgy surface aren't really 'on', but it does make for more interesting racing :)

I was in total awe of the fact Kubica survived that crash, a real tribute to the people who have campaigned over the years for the car construction standards to be so safety conscious - wonder what the equivalent ncap rating is for head on into a wall at 180mph?

iadom
11-06-2007, 00:15
I was in total awe of the fact Kubica survived that crash, a real tribute to the people who have campaigned over the years for the car construction standards to be so safety conscious - wonder what the equivalent ncap rating is for head on into a wall at 180mph?

Hi Gaz, I'm just glad that they don't make domestic applainces to such rigorous specs, I would be out of a job in no time.;)

homealone
11-06-2007, 00:40
Hi Gaz, I'm just glad that they don't make domestic applainces to such rigorous specs, I would be out of a job in no time.;)

Hey Jim :wavey:

- hmm, if they made a carbon fibre drum on a direct drive motor, would you need such a large damping weight? - can you imagine it though, "sorry madam your drum speed management chip has blown" - you would just need re-training ;) :D

altis
11-06-2007, 11:38
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6739469.stmMeanwhile, Briton Anthony Davidson was cursing his luck after hitting a beaver on lap 37...I'm surprised Nugget hasn't passed comment already!

Nugget
11-06-2007, 11:41
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6739469.stmI'm surprised Nugget hasn't passed comment already!

Hey, sometimes the joke just tells itself :D

iadom
11-06-2007, 11:44
Hey Jim :wavey:

- can you imagine it though, "sorry madam your drum speed management chip has blown" - you would just need re-training ;) :D

Sadly Gaz, that already happens, certain manufacturers use electronic controls that fit various models, the information for each individual model is stored on an eeprom on the main PCB. The company engineers have laptop enabled software to allow them to reprogram corrupted eeproms or write new instructions to the old eeprom or to new blank ones. Unfortunately this software is not available to the independent trade, this means that if we suspect a main module fault we have to replace the £80.00 module together with a £20.00 pre programmed eeprom.

One manufacturer in particular does this, their machines sell for as little as £199.00, it is little wonder that you see a lot of I******t machines on the scrap heap less than two years old.:(

Jim.

iadom
17-06-2007, 23:45
Perhaps not quite as exciting as last weeks race, Lewis Hamilton still had to hold off Alonso on a couple of occasions. What I do find incredible is that he has won consecutive races on tracks that he has only previously seen before on the Maclaren race simulator, that must be an awesome piece of kit.

Jim.

homealone
18-06-2007, 00:03
Perhaps not quite as exciting as last weeks race, Lewis Hamilton still had to hold off Alonso on a couple of occasions. What I do find incredible is that he has won consecutive races on tracks that he has only previously seen before on the Maclaren race simulator, that must be an awesome piece of kit.

Jim.

I wouldn't mind a go at that, either ;)

sherer
18-06-2007, 17:33
well done to Vettell too who got points on his debut another one of the younger drivers who looks like they should be in F1 next year.. also Kovalienen is starting to improve too after a nightmare first few races

gazzae
01-07-2007, 15:48
When the Ferrari team were on the radio to Kimi at the end does any one know what they meant when they told him to remember to pick up rubber?

homealone
01-07-2007, 17:18
When the Ferrari team were on the radio to Kimi at the end does any one know what they meant when they told him to remember to pick up rubber?

Yes, during the race the tyres wear, resulting in rubber 'crumbs' gathering off the racing line. Now the car + driver must not be below a minimum weight, which may be checked at the end of the race.

One strategy is to deliberately drive through the rubber debris on the return to the pits after the race, as the tyres are still hot & sticky, they will pick up an amount of the waste rubber, making the car a little heavier, in case it gets weighed.

iadom
01-07-2007, 19:53
Yes, during the race the tyres wear, resulting in rubber 'crumbs' gathering off the racing line. Now the car + driver must not be below a minimum weight, which may be checked at the end of the race.

One strategy is to deliberately drive through the rubber debris on the return to the pits after the race, as the tyres are still hot & sticky, they will pick up an amount of the waste rubber, making the car a little heavier, in case it gets weighed.


Shucks, and I thought it was a message from his lady friend.:D

homealone
01-07-2007, 20:00
Shucks, and I thought it was a message from his lady friend.:D

Raikkonen hasn't got any mates ;)

- although I may be ribbing you, I hope you aren't extra sensitive :D

iadom
01-07-2007, 20:31
Come to think of it, they did actually sponsor an F1 car a few years back didn't they?
Jim.

homealone
01-07-2007, 20:38
Come to think of it, they did actually sponsor an F1 car a few years back didn't they?
Jim.


yes, it was Surtees, IIRC the Beeb pulled some pre-race coverage because of it

quick google


Although successful in F5000 and F2, Grand Prix glory eluded the team although the choice of condom manufacturer Durex as primary sponsor has earned the team a permanent place in Grand Prix history. The TS19 was the first car to wear the Durex livery and was the reason that BBC TV withdrew their cameras from pre-season British races during 1975.

from http://www.gpracing.net192.com/teams/56.cfm

iadom
01-07-2007, 22:36
1975, nooooooooo, it can't have been that long ago.:Yikes:

I think i will have to get the Horlicks out, or maybe the Complan.:D

Jim.

Would rep you for the above research but I need to spread it around Gaz.

homealone
01-07-2007, 23:16
1975, nooooooooo, it can't have been that long ago.:Yikes:

I think i will have to get the Horlicks out, or maybe the Complan.:D

Jim.

Would rep you for the above research but I need to spread it around Gaz.

don't you just love 'topic drift' :D

I'm looking forward to Silverstone more than ever, now, they have to set the ride height just a little higher, there, than at Magny-Cours, because it is much more bumpy.

That may upset some of the aerodynamic modifications that seem to have worked well on the smooth surface of Magny-Cours....

My 'man of the match' today was Kubica - to get 4th after that crash just a short time ago was stunning :tu:

iadom
02-07-2007, 00:06
Agree 100% Gaz, Kubica and his car performed very well. Silverstone could be very interesting, especially if the glorious Summer of 2007 continues,:rolleyes:

Jim.

iadom
03-07-2007, 11:48
Amazing. Click on the 'New kid on the grid' link. :cool:

http://tinyurl.com/32dh25

iadom
05-07-2007, 23:56
Just to update this, original link has been altered.

http://tinyurl.com/2s3pvh

Jim.

sherer
06-07-2007, 11:02
i wonder sometimes how much of this is a child wanting to do this and how much they are forced into doing it by their parents.

At that age he won;t have any concept of the dangers of crashing and injuring himself it will just seem too much like the playstation games at home

alferret
07-07-2007, 16:47
Looks like tomorrows race is gonna be a good one

LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6280198.stm)

homealone
07-07-2007, 17:52
I wish I knew what the relative fuel loads were, for the final pole position session.

But yes, the stage is set for what could be a fascinating tussle, Raikkonen looked to be very angry after his mistake probably cost him the pole, but I have to say I admire Hamilton's ability to get the job done, despite the huge pressure he has been under since getting back from France.

I hope David Coulthard can get in the points, too :tu:

Gareth
22-07-2007, 11:43
Phew, Lewis Hamilton's crash wasn't too serious as he's been cleared to race.

There's some good footage of it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky4O2SorpXk) (although the commentry is in German). You can clearly see the part where part of the wheel came loose and then seconds later - bang! - into the wall.

edit - ITV footage of it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUXaEWx22K0), shorter but it is in Engrish.

eddie00001
26-07-2007, 16:49
See the FIA are not going to punish McLaren, although they have said the reserve the right to 'invite' them back should the find evidance in the furture which shows they gained an 'unfair' advantage from the Ferrari documents

j52c
26-07-2007, 21:30
This whole thing smells of a setup.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/7/6542.html

Remember at the beginning of the season when Mclaren exposed the moving floor that Ferrari were using and after the FIA investigated it was found to be illegal, so who are Ferrari to talk about fairness in F1, look back at the other things they have done.

There is a section in this link it was one of Ferrari's own men that told Maclaren about the moving floor.
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_2612679,00.html

It was also at the end of last season that the main man at Ferrari told his team they had to win the championship this year, maybe they are trying to do this by what is happening, stranger things have happened.

pedantic
04-08-2007, 15:21
Oh dear! Looks like Alonso will have a flea in his ear soon, after the qualifying debacle. Hamilton's body language said it all, in the press conference. :erm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm

homealone
04-08-2007, 16:01
Oh dear! Looks like Alonso will have a flea in his ear soon, after the qualifying debacle. Hamilton's body language said it all, in the press conference. :erm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm

It certainly had Ron Dennis acting more upset than I've ever seen him, in public, the only consolation being that if Alonso thinks he has to resort to gamesmanship to beat Hamilton, then it is a psychological victory for Lewis, even if it doesn't translate into points on the track.

If I were Ron Dennis I wouldn't be planning to renew Alonso's contract next season, I don't care how good a driver he is, cheats shouldn't be allowed to prosper - something Ferrari should have done with Shumacher, too....

Delta Whiskey
04-08-2007, 16:45
Such blatant cheating deserves some sort of disciplinary measure, Ron Dennis looked apoplectic with rage. If it was up to me I'd make Alonso sit out the race, I wonder if the FIA will take any action.

keithwalton
04-08-2007, 18:56
It wasnt 'cheating' however it was unsporting behaviour,
lewis was faster in all head to heads so should walk all over alonso tomorrow. If alonso was concerned before that mac will be backing lewis rather than him, well they will now.

As for massa's fun i was laughing so much, especially when we got the shot of todt almost crying it couldnt of happend to a nicer bunch of cheats.
It looks to me as if they forgot to refuel him as they did put a splash of fuel in the car when they'd pulled him back.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:59 ----------

It seems the stewards are now investigating the matter http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61353
and they want to hear what was said over the radio.
If alonso was told how long he had to complete his outlap or given the order to go / hurry up he's in trouble. From Ronso throwing his headset into his wall of monitors would suggest that alonso didnt do as he was told

Hom3r
04-08-2007, 19:32
Alonso is a cheating (insert expletive here)

He should be dumped to 10th place.

homealone
04-08-2007, 19:36
Alonso is a cheating (insert expletive here)

He should be dumped to 10th place.

I did read somewhere else that Ron Dennis should decide Alonso needs an engine change, which would do just that ;)

Unfortunately he has to think of the team position & I doubt he would want to risk losing constructor points over a personnel problem?

iadom
04-08-2007, 21:11
Did you see Ron Dennis frog marching Alonso's trainer down the pit lane, its a good job there were people about, it looked as though he was going to throttle him there and then.

Jim.

homealone
04-08-2007, 21:38
Did you see Ron Dennis frog marching Alonso's trainer down the pit lane, its a good job there were people about, it looked as though he was going to throttle him there and then.

Jim.

yes ;) Including the firm way he removed the guy's headphones :erm:

It will be interesting to see what the enquiry comes up with??

- Shame, in a way, because the problems Massa had were, perhaps, more serious, but have been overshadowed by this incident :shrug:

keithwalton
04-08-2007, 22:43
Apparently it was all hammiltons fault for not letting alonso through at the start of Q3, which seems a trifle odd as hammy was in clear air out on his own yet alonso had kimi up his chuff.
They say alonso was supposed to go one lap longer first off which tbh he could of done irrespective of road position its not as if hammy was slowing him down.
The getting of alonso's trainer was to apparently calm alonso down whilst ronso was going to calm hammy down.

As for the engine change idea, no can do. After qualy has started parc ferme is in effect. any engine changes means relegation to p22 not a 10 place drop.

I wonder if fisi is going to get handed a penalty for blocking yammo'
If i were the stewards i would delete the time associated with just after there incidents to remove any 'unfair' advantage they gained

homealone
04-08-2007, 22:57
Apparently it was all hammiltons fault for not letting alonso through at the start of Q3, which seems a trifle odd as hammy was in clear air out on his own yet alonso had kimi up his chuff.
They say alonso was supposed to go one lap longer first off which tbh he could of done irrespective of road position its not as if hammy was slowing him down.
The getting of alonso's trainer was to apparently calm alonso down whilst ronso was going to calm hammy down.

As for the engine change idea, no can do. After qualy has started parc ferme is in effect. any engine changes means relegation to p22 not a 10 place drop.

I wonder if fisi is going to get handed a penalty for blocking yammo'
If i were the stewards i would delete the time associated with just after there incidents to remove any 'unfair' advantage they gained

thanks, the fisichella 'blocking' incident was another which was under reported due to the apparent in-fighting at McLaren - the engine change was always a 'tongue in cheek' suggestion, as I'm sure you know ;)

Hom3r
05-08-2007, 00:18
Alonso dropped five places, & McLaren NOT allowed to score championship points

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm

homealone
05-08-2007, 01:25
Alonso dropped five places, & McLaren NOT allowed to score championship points

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm

Difficult one, without knowing all the facts I'm surprised the team are being penalised for Alonso's intransigence, Ron Dennis' reaction this afternoon suggested he was not expecting it, so why deny the constructor points????

dev
05-08-2007, 02:15
Difficult one, without knowing all the facts I'm surprised the team are being penalised for Alonso's intransigence, Ron Dennis' reaction this afternoon suggested he was not expecting it, so why deny the constructor points????

the 5 place penalty is for alonso impeding hamilton, the constructors points "ban" is for the reaction of mclaren to the incident so they are being penalised for the teams reaction, not what alonso did.

mclaren are apparently appealing the constructors points "ban".

homealone
05-08-2007, 02:24
the 5 place penalty is for alonso impeding hamilton, the constructors points "ban" is for the reaction of mclaren to the incident so they are being penalised for the teams reaction, not what alonso did.

mclaren are apparently appealing the constructors points "ban".

the result of all this is immaterial, in some ways, the 'gloves are now off' between Alonso & Hamilton - let battle commence ;)

Jon T
05-08-2007, 11:24
the result of all this is immaterial, in some ways, the 'gloves are now off' between Alonso & Hamilton - let battle commence ;)

The results are all immaterial anyway, the only reason McLaren have been handed the constructors point ban is because Masa is starting well down the grid, the lack of constructors points for McLaren will equal things up a bit..

It's all to do with the normal scheme of things in that Ferrari have the FIA/Bernie wrapped around their little finger, they(Ferarri) get penalised or have mechanical failure and suddenly there a reason to penalise McLaren(or any other team that stands to gain from their misfortune).

Formula 1 is becoming a managed show, with a semi-managed outcome.

sherer
05-08-2007, 12:17
yep it does seem AGAIN that the FIA are doing all they can to help Ferrari.

They didn't punish McLaren for the spy row so they are doing this to make up for it.

I've nver heard of a team being banned from scoring constructors points.

FA got all worked up as LH was meant to let him pass earlier in the session and he didn't so FA did that to get back at him

dev
05-08-2007, 12:56
the hell you 2 on about? if the FIA are helping ferrari they'd have penalised mclaren for the spy thing, and sent alonso back more than 5 places. putting alonso 5th is still 9 ahead of massa and only 2 behind kimi.

the mclaren constructors points ban would have probably been for things we didnt see/hear, eg radio contact etc

Cobbydaler
05-08-2007, 13:00
Full decision is here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61373)...

(Courtesy of Autosport)

sherer
05-08-2007, 13:13
the hell you 2 on about? if the FIA are helping ferrari they'd have penalised mclaren for the spy thing, and sent alonso back more than 5 places. putting alonso 5th is still 9 ahead of massa and only 2 behind kimi.

the mclaren constructors points ban would have probably been for things we didnt see/hear, eg radio contact etc

well we all know how closely the FIA and Ferrari are and that Mosley hates Dennis so after the world council let McLaren off and they wanted to jump on any little mistake they made.

Who else has every heard of a team racing without getting constructors points and even knew this was a punishment they could give out ?

keithwalton
05-08-2007, 13:28
Its not called Ferrari International Assistance for nothing (thats a joke name for the fia) but yesterdays events were all mclaren they made a boo boo and got punished for it. Fisi also got a 5 place drop for his actions.

It's amusing that only one car in the top 10 is starting where it qualified, oh and alonso is 6th not 5th

Hom3r
05-08-2007, 22:47
Go Hamiltom Go 3rd win.

Shadow Demon UK
13-09-2007, 19:37
McLaren have been stripped of their points in the 2007 Formula One constructors' championship after the outcome of the 'spygate' row.
The team was also hit with a record $100m (£49.2m) fine but drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso will be allowed to keep their points.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm)

Good to see Hamilton won't lose any points :tu:

MovedGoalPosts
13-09-2007, 19:40
Whoa, a fine that size will hurt any future ability to fund car development. Expect to see McLaren becoming an also ran team in the next couple of years leaving Ferrari with no challengers. F1 becomes boring again :(

dd2k
13-09-2007, 19:45
major blow to McLaren and the F1 as a whole, After a bad years, Mclaren really have stuck it up to farrari this season but doubt they can afford to keep up progress with a fine like that, and i imagine they will loose alot of sponsorship money next season also

Woolly One
13-09-2007, 19:50
Whoa, a fine that size will hurt any future ability to fund car development. Expect to see McLaren becoming an also ran team in the next couple of years leaving Ferrari with no challengers. F1 becomes boring again :(

Ouch! I concur with Rob, That will hit the sport. Bernie might struggle with getting his TV deals

iadom
13-09-2007, 20:14
I dare say that Mansour Ojjeh will consider that fine small change. ;)

http://tinyurl.com/2w9nuu

gazzae
13-09-2007, 20:55
Don't DaimlerChrysler own a large part of McLaren? I wouldn't think the fine would hurt them that much.

Woolly One
13-09-2007, 21:04
I can't wait to hear Mclaren's appeal. From what I heard on the lunchtime news (sorry can't remember if it was BEEB or ITV). they want to drop another team in it, for doing the same thing.

The thought - F1 and Turmoil - springs to mind.

TheDaddy
13-09-2007, 21:08
I can't wait to hear Mclaren's appeal. From what I heard on the lunchtime news (sorry can't remember if it was BEEB or ITV). they want to drop another team in it, for doing the same thing.

The thought - F1 and Turmoil - springs to mind.

I would have thought every team does it, unless you hire people with no expertise or experience, seems like one extreme to another to me, no punishment to punitive

Hom3r
13-09-2007, 21:12
Agian Ferrari get away scot free,

how can one of the ferrai team apparently give info to Mclaren and NOT get any punishment,

Well cancel F1 (thats F for Ferrari) next year and gve them the trophy now.

I won't be watching it next season, regarless of how Lewis does.

what the the 10th rate coverage on ITV.

BYE BYE F1

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

For all of you that have lost their faith in F1. the A1GP season start on the 30th September

http://www.a1gp.com/default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

HELLO A1GP

TheDaddy
13-09-2007, 21:22
Agian Ferrari get away scot free,

how can one of the ferrai team apparently give info to Mclaren and NOT get any punishment,


Wasn't he an ex employee though, how could they legislate for that?

Hom3r
13-09-2007, 21:27
Wasn't he an ex employee though, how could they legislate for that?
He still was an employee at the time wasn't he, then fired, usless I read wrong.

If Mclaren did steal secrets for them why are Ferari still carp this year.

TheDaddy
13-09-2007, 22:03
He still was an employee at the time wasn't he, then fired, usless I read wrong.

If Mclaren did steal secrets for them why are Ferari still carp this year.

I don't to much about F1 or this story but if you are right and he was selling secrets whilst still an employee, then it's much more serious than I thought, akin to industrial espionage, if your right then imo they got what they deserved and the employee should never work in the industry again at any level

As I said don't know to much about the sport but as all cars seem to be different, is stands to reason that various bit of different teams cars are better than their rivals, the more better bits you have the better the car, even relatively minor seeming things could make all the difference

homealone
13-09-2007, 22:20
The decision by the investigating body to punish Mclaren as a team, for an individual employees possession of Ferrari documents does not make sense without implying there is 'more than meets the eye'.

On face value, my opinion is that 'if' a Ferrari employee was responsible for the consignment of those documents, that they, as a team, should be punished equally as harshly as the recipient :shrug:

One very good point I saw raised was 'who' does the $100M fine actually go to, considering the FIA don't seem to be short of a few bob, already ???

TheDaddy
13-09-2007, 22:23
The decision by the investigating body to punish Mclaren as a team, for an individual employees possession of Ferrari documents does not make sense without implying there is 'more than meets the eye'.

On face value, my opinion is that 'if' a Ferrari employee was responsible for the consignment of those documents, that they, as a team, should be punished equally as harshly as the recipient :shrug:


Presumably though Ferrari didn't know one of their employee's was passing information on though :shrug:

homealone
13-09-2007, 23:33
Presumably though Ferrari didn't know one of their employee's was passing information on though :shrug:

'presumably' neither did McLaren, as a team, know an employee of theirs was receiving the alleged information ????

- sorry, not disagreeing, just puzzled why only one team was punished? :confused:

TheDaddy
13-09-2007, 23:58
'presumably' neither did McLaren, as a team, know an employee of theirs was receiving the alleged information ????

- sorry, not disagreeing, just puzzled why only one team was punished? :confused:

What could Ferrari be punished for?

If Mclaren didn't knowingly benefit or make any brown envelope payments then why were the punished at all?

Cobbydaler
14-09-2007, 08:06
What could Ferrari be punished for?

If Mclaren didn't knowingly benefit or make any brown envelope payments then why were the punished at all?

McLaren were punished because Max decided they should be. There's no logic in the decision; neither the reason behind it nor the scope of the punishment.

As his Dad once said "I am not, and never have been, a man of the right"...

Max is certainly a man of the wrong...

Scarlett
14-09-2007, 10:11
Still not in any way convinced about the scale of this punishment. It does look like a sop to Ferrari who were outraged when McLaren didn't get punished last time (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6910369.stm).

There is such a thing as intent, that's the key to all this.

Okay so clearly someone* leaked the secrets to Mr Coughlan of McLaren because the 780 page document was found at his house. However was this under 'team' orders or just a rogue employee? (now lets not forget that the leaking of the document was almost certainly the work of a rogue employee)

At least some of the high up's knew that the the documents existed but its never been made clear if this was before or after Ferrari found out.

Dennis is confident their findings will reveal the information in Coughlan's possession was not used to develop the McLarens.

However, it emerged during the hearing McLaren managing director Jonathan Neale was aware Coughlan had the documents.

It is unclear, though, whether Neale knew before or after Ferrari started their legal case.

See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6288384.stm)


However what seems to be a given is that the only person who acted to get these documents was Mike Coughlan. He's never said that anyone else was involved in the intital contact or that it was under orders form the team. So basically McLaren may have found out that one of their guys had the documents before Ferrari announced that they'd gone missing. It appears from the quote above that Jonathan Neale knew of the documents but that may well have been it. At worst this happened a number of days before Ferrari realised where they were and started making accusations.

Also once this document was in Mike Coughlan's possetion, did he actually pass any of it on directly? Did the rest of team know that he had it? Was it a case of him coming into the office and saying “I've had an idea lads, why don't we set this componant up this poisition instead.” or was it “Well Ferrari have worked out that this componant on their car works best in this position, let's test it for ours” From the comments in the article, it appears it was certainly not the second scenario.

The entire engineering team in excess of 140 people provided statements to the FIA affirming they had never received or used the Ferrari information.

See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6288384.stm)


So at worst this was the first scenario but then it's a very heavy punishment for the team if they didn't know the knowledge was being used. Only if Jonathan Neale knew well in advance and just kept quiet and left Mike Coughlan to continue tweaking the car** would a punishement such as this seem fair. If this were the case, I'd expect this to have been all over the news but it not. Not even an accusation of this so I suspect it can be fairly dismissed.

Realistically this was down to the FIA stating at the end of the last court hearing that;

If it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite McLaren back in front of the world council where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship

See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6910369.stm)


So they had no choice but to be excessively (and going on the evidence in the public domain to date, I do believe this is excessive) harsh. However I still haven't seen any proof that the information was used knowingly by McLaren. Certainly not to the "detriment of the championship". If it was then why not also punish the drivers who must have benifitted from the info (if it was used)?*** Hey while were at it, why such a Harsh punishment for a team due to the actions of a single rogue employee? Are the FIA going to say they the top guys knew weeks in advance of the document that they covered it up? I await todays FIA details with interest. As far as I am concerned unless they can prove that Mike Coughlan told the team (or at least the top people) that he had the doc and they did nothing and left him to it for a substantual time then the punishment is just plain excessive and clearly being put in place to placate other teams etc. Maybe even as a deterent to others doing the same **** that's the only crazy context that it makes sense.

My next concern is how the hell are McLaren going to be able to defend next years car? it was stated by the FIA that:

The team must also prove there is no Ferrari "intellectual property" in their cars next year before racing.

See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6910369.stm)


So if, as it appears to date, the rest of McLaren were unaware of the Ferrari doc until the accusation. How are they going to know what is Ferrari IP? They haven't seen the doc (and all swore in court this was the case) and if they are shown the doc then it kind of defeats the object. So they are going to have to hope that Mike Coughlan didn't use it before he was found out to direct their research down certain paths?

I am sure that McLaren will miss at least one or two races next year as Ferrari claim various enhancements are their's even if McLaren can prove the steps they took to reach that point.*****

Like I said before, I'm interesting awaiting the FIA statement later.

Scarlett.

*I say someone because Mr Stepney has only been accused and convicted yet.

** The 2007 car would already have been designed well before this dossier got to McLaren so it wont have affected this years car massivly.

*** I believe the expression used by the BBC reporter was "So they don't shoot the Golden goose." Hamilton has done more for F1 this year than Max and Bernie for the last 5.

**** Yea, Leak secrets and we'll get you, your family, the family dog, the neighbours, Bob the milkman and old Granny Welling who you occasionally collect a paper for.

***** There are basically only so many ways to solve a given problem so it's quite likely that at least some of these will have been solved in the same way by Ferrari and McLaren.

Saaf_laandon_mo
14-09-2007, 10:35
CAn someone clarify one think for me please. How is it that the constructers lose points for using illegally obtained information (which alledgedly have given them an advantage gained in dubious manners) but the drivers still keep the points. Aren't they racing in the same cars and got those points which Maclaren can no longer use? Im a bit confused.

TheDaddy
14-09-2007, 10:39
CAn someone clarify one think for me please. How is it that the constructers lose points for using illegally obtained information (which alledgedly have given them an advantage gained in dubious manners) but the drivers still keep the points. Aren't they racing in the same cars and got those points which Maclaren can no longer use? Im a bit confused.

Yes but tv would be very unhappy if they wrecked the drivers championship, it's been the most interesting for years

Saaf_laandon_mo
14-09-2007, 10:43
Yes but tv and media would be very unhappy if they wrecked the drivers championship, lets be honest it's been the most interesting for years

Definately, I want the points to stay, but I just dont understand the 'common sense' of it all. Did it not happen a while back with Schuey too, they lost constructor points but not his own?

sherer
14-09-2007, 11:08
the FIA should be making some more statements later today to clear up and clarify all of this.

I think the fine is £50 minus any money McLaren have already earned this year.

We still need to know if any Ferrari info made it into a McLaren design

or

Whether McLaren used any Ferrari operational data like fuel strategy, weight of car etc etc to their advantage.

Apparently a McLaren employee left the team for Renault and took some McLaren docs with him and designed the same cooling system on the Renault as McLaren use this year. This was going to be part of their defence.

It seems the sport has now got so complex that these design things help the team more than having a quick driver these days and maybe they need to look into the very heart of the sport.

The other year Toyota were found guilty in a German Court of Law of stealing Ferrari data and the FIA did nothing at all

iadom
14-09-2007, 11:12
I heard that some of the info may relate to braking & tyres, Ferrari used Bridgestone the season before but McClaren were still on Michelin.

Jim.

andygrif
14-09-2007, 11:13
CAn someone clarify one think for me please. How is it that the constructers lose points for using illegally obtained information (which alledgedly have given them an advantage gained in dubious manners) but the drivers still keep the points. Aren't they racing in the same cars and got those points which Maclaren can no longer use? Im a bit confused.

The FIA did a deal with the drivers, by offering them immunity from losing their standings in return for providing them with evidence such as emails rumoured to exist between Alonso and stand-by and test driver Pedro De La Rosa.

Bu I wouldn't spend too much time trying to apply logic to this situation. There is too much secrecy in the whole 'court' process, which does fuel certain theories, but it's pretty clear that this document was not passed to McLaren until April of this year, well after the design for the 07 car was finished. Whilst there may be a few tweaks that they could have borrowed, the main question you have to ask is why? The Ferraris are not the best ones they've ever created this season, so why would you copy them?

And it would be simple for McLaren to show any changes that they made to the designs of this season's car since April, therefore proving or disproving the case against them.

The only issue of doubt of course would be next year's car, which is not built yet...so as far as I can make out this is a pre-emptive strike by the FIA, penalising a team on the possibility that they might use someone elses designs for next year. Mad.

Scarlett
14-09-2007, 16:42
Well the news is out now... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm)

Certainly two of the drivers ( De la rosa and Alonso) were not only aware of the information but also of the exact source. And it had been going on for some time.

I'm still not convincened that the team should have been punished in the way it was. The drivers in question were at fault for not flagging it up and its stinky the way that having caused the whole mess, they have got off more or less scot free because they were given immunity.

I'll be interested to see if they were the only ones who used the infor or if it went higher.

sherer
14-09-2007, 17:03
Well the news is out now... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm)

Certainly two of the drivers ( De la rosa and Alonso) were not only aware of the information but also of the exact source. And it had been going on for some time.

I'm still not convincened that the team should have been punished in the way it was. The drivers in question were at fault for not flagging it up and its stinky the way that having caused the whole mess, they have got off more or less scot free because they were given immunity.

I'll be interested to see if they were the only ones who used the infor or if it went higher.

the full report is on the FIA web site if you want to read it

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

The FIA only found out what was going on by getting the e-mails from the drivers which they gave up as they offered them immunity

Hom3r
14-09-2007, 22:26
It sound like that Alonso has "blood" on his hands.

Any bets that he won't be racing with Mclaren next year, if he ever races in F1 again.

andygrif
15-09-2007, 10:25
It sound like that Alonso has "blood" on his hands.

Any bets that he won't be racing with Mclaren next year, if he ever races in F1 again.

The conspiracy theorist in might might want to suggest that he moves to a red car next year!

Someone knew about these emails, which is why the drivers were offered a deal to hand them over. I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that this might be a stitch-up of McLaren.

Cobbydaler
15-09-2007, 14:03
The conspiracy theorist in might might want to suggest that he moves to a red car next year!

Someone knew about these emails, which is why the drivers were offered a deal to hand them over. I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that this might be a stitch-up of McLaren.


According to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6996172.stm), Alonso threatened to hand them over...


Reports have suggested Alonso told Dennis he would show the e-mails to Max Mosley, president of the sport's governing body the FIA, if he did not give Alonso number one status at McLaren over Lewis Hamilton.
Dennis is said to have called his bluff, telling Alonso to go ahead. At which point, it is claimed, Dennis then phoned Mosley himself, effectively handing his team in to the FIA.

homealone
15-09-2007, 15:53
What could Ferrari be punished for?

If Mclaren didn't knowingly benefit or make any brown envelope payments then why were the punished at all?

Exactly.

My opinion is that either both teams should have been punished, or neither of them. To only single out Mclaren is what seems unfair, to me - although that opinion is based on the 'evidence' available up to now.

It was interesting that Max Mosley seemed to be effectively accusing Ron Dennis of lying to him - something Ron vehemently denied when interviewed during the earlier qualifying session :erm:

xpod
15-09-2007, 16:45
Someone knew about these emails, which is why the drivers were offered a deal to hand them over. I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind that this might be a stitch-up of McLaren.

Martin Brundle alluded to as much in an interview i watched yesterday.
People are constantly moving positions between the teams and have always taken team secrets with them.That in itself is nothing new.

Has`nt F1 been so much better over the last couple of years though,this will just make things all the more interesting afaic:)

Hom3r
30-09-2007, 14:19
Well another fine win by a world champion hopeful

And it means he will win the championship in China next weekend if he beats Alonso, or loses no more than a point to him. (History will be made if he does as no rookie has ever one in his first season)

Alonso binned the car :)

Hamilton will be the Sports Personality of the year me thinks

homealone
30-09-2007, 16:14
Fascinating race, mostly for the 'wrong' reasons.

I didn't get what Ferrari were doing, going out with intermediate tyres - whether they knew about the instruction to go with full wets, or not, they were gambling on the weather clearing up for them to be any use. As it turned out even the full wets were aquaplaning, so it was a bizarre decision. Have to say a superb drive by Kimi to get on the podium.

I'm glad there were no injuries from the various shunts, it wasn't exactly 'safety first' & while I appreciate the commercial pressure to put on a show, I have to question whether it should have been run, at all?

But Hamilton was very impressive & despite the dodgy nature of some of his comments
in interviews, showed he could get the job done on the track, once he had survived being spun off by Kubica....

Jon T
30-09-2007, 16:35
It's at the back of my mind that even if Lewis wins the word championship that Ferarri may have other ideas. I hope i'm wrong, but I can see Lewis winning next weekend, only to find out that a complaint to the FIA has been made about him or the car.

Let's be honest, we know what Ferarri were doing with intermediates on, they were hoping the conditions changed, and that nobody would notice their mistake(deliberate in my mind).

Bet you the FIA wouldn't have been interested if McLaren(or any other team) had filed a complaint against Ferrari for using tyres they were not supposed to have on the car.

FIA=Ferrari International Assistance

Hom3r
30-09-2007, 18:39
kimi should be disqualified for not starting the race with the right tyres.

The excuse "we didn't know" is BS. every one else knew

homealone
30-09-2007, 19:01
kimi should be disqualified for not starting the race with the right tyres.

The excuse "we didn't know" is BS. every one else knew

If they had gained an advantage, I would agree, but as it turned out they would have had to change them, anyway, once the safety car had gone in, as the conditions were still too wet for intermediates at racing speed.

Ferrari were in a shambles, compared to their usual standards, today....

Woolly One
04-10-2007, 14:38
Lewis could be in trouble -

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40921

punky
04-10-2007, 14:44
Looking at the video, his driving was a bit odd. Does anyone know why he took the corner so slow and wide?

Also, how comes there's no official video footage of it? The news showed a mobile capture...

ikthius
04-10-2007, 15:12
Lewis could be in trouble -

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40921

he is a professional driver, he should have been aware of everything, not watching hamilton in case he had a problem

ik

Saaf_laandon_mo
04-10-2007, 15:16
I think because of the difficult driving conditions, Hamilton will get away with it (I dont think he did anything deliberately wrong, just drove erratically). With a safety car out, and rain pouring down, as well as very poor visibility, the cars behind didnt need to be so close.

sherer
04-10-2007, 15:36
it was missed by most of the cameras so the only good footage of the whole incident is from a camera from the stands.

lewis nearly ran into the back of the safety car and so had to brake to avoid that.. Webber had to move and brake to avoid hitting or passing Hamilton, although I think he could have passed and them let hem straight back in front, which meant Vettel had no other option but to hit the back of Webber

keithwalton
04-10-2007, 16:11
He may get his knuckles wrapped for it, i just think he was pulling out of the spray from the safety car so he could actually see but then found he had very little grip or somthing.

I cant remember but was that the lap before they were bringing the safety car in ? in which case the rules of following the safety car closely do not apply

sherer
04-10-2007, 16:35
Schumacher did this in Monza a few years ago and it forced Button out of the race and nothing was done.

Although one of them drives for Ferrari and banning the other would help out Ferrari :shocked:

It was the lap the safety car was coming in but I think the lights were still on at the time so the rules do apply but i'd have to check what they are TBH

j52c
04-10-2007, 17:09
Who reported the video to the FIA?
Quote from Formila 1 website:-
Scuderia Toro Rosso team principal contacted the race stewards after seeing a Youtube video of the incident that saw STR's Sebastian Vettel ram into Mark Webber.
-------------------
Enough said, what engines do Toro Ross use? is it by any chance Ferrari?
so no guessing who is really behind it.

In the video Hamalton was nowhere near the other cars and one driver has already admitted he wasn't looking where he was going.

andygrif
04-10-2007, 22:17
I think that link is a little tenuous for my liking....

...I think it probably has more to do with a driver who was on-course for his first podium of the season got smacked into and would like someone to blame. According to an interview with Vettel he went over to teammate Webber and apologised profuseley...why would he do that if Hamilton was to blame? And it's interesting this 'development' comes just after the FIA give Vettel a 10 place penalty for China.

It's also interesting reading an unrelated interview this week with Red Bull stablemate DC, saying what a great driver Hamilton is!

Boys, toys and prams!

sherer
05-10-2007, 10:46
Vettel apologised before he had seen the clip of what happened. Talking about it later he said he thought Hamilton had a problem and was going to retire as he was going so slow. vettel was looking at Hamilton who was going slow. Webber braked so he didn't overtake Hamilton and Vettel wasn't looking. By the time he had noticed Webber had braked he had hit him

A racing incident anyway no reason to dock points or grid penalties

eddie00001
05-10-2007, 12:13
I can see Hamilton be penalised 10 grid places, the FIA seem to have it in for McLaren and I don't think they want a 'rookie' to win the Championship.
Webber has also said that while he was critical of Hamiltons driving during the FIA press conference, he has, nor is making an official complaint.

Also, after Stepney has said Ferrari has had and used McLaren data, doubt we'll see any action being taken though: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62975

TheDaddy
05-10-2007, 14:31
Just heard on the news he isn't being punished :tu:

Hugh
05-10-2007, 15:03
Good call (imho) Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm)

Hom3r
06-10-2007, 23:17
Well are we just hours away from watching history being made, LH has been brilliant to watch this season (I wasn't going to bother to be honest what with ITV 100th rate coverage adverts every 5 mins, qualifying dumped to ITV3/4, but LH changed this)

He has made FA & other drivers look like the rookies, No drive has had as many Poles Wins or podums in their debut season, not even the great M Schumacher started this good.

This site has info on him so far. http://www.chicanef1.com/indiv.pl?name=Lewis%20Hamilton&type=d

If this is the shape of this to come who nows how many championships he will eventually will win.

homealone
07-10-2007, 00:58
It is a tortoise & hare race, tomorrow, in my opinion.

The weather may be the final arbiter in the result & many teams seem to have made a gamble on how that may affect them, during the race, rather than looking for an out & out qualifying package.

Ferrari are rumoured to be 'fueled long' - but is Alonso also carrying the same weight??

We'll know in slightly under 8 hours ;)

j52c
07-10-2007, 09:13
Well, he is not going to do it this year.
Out he goes.

alferret
07-10-2007, 09:16
Unlucky for Hamilton, I wonder what Maclaren were thinking keeping him out far to long after it was obvious that he was losing 2-3 seconds a lap due to his tyres going off :(

xpod
07-10-2007, 09:49
Well, he is not going to do it this year.
Out he goes.

There is always the last race he could do it at;)

Hugh
07-10-2007, 10:29
Could you imagine Alonso's reaction if McLaren had kept him out that long with duff tyres?

alferret
07-10-2007, 10:56
Could you imagine Alonso's reaction if McLaren had kept him out that long with duff tyres?

Yup, another door ripped off and a few heads too.

tcbass
10-10-2007, 11:55
... He has made FA & other drivers look like the rookies, No drive has had as many Poles Wins or podums in their debut season, not even the great M Schumacher started this good.

This site has info on him so far. http://www.chicanef1.com/indiv.pl?name=Lewis%20Hamilton&type=d

If this is the shape of this to come who nows how many championships he will eventually will win.

Then again not many Drivers get to debut for the top teams either :D

He is a really good driver and definitely something for the future, but he has also benefited from an excellent car for his debut season, which eludes most debutants.

(and for the "great M Shumacher" he started in the last 3rd of the season for Jordan, not exactly McLaren is it :D, not eaven Benetton which he moved to was anything like a top team at the time)

Cobbydaler
11-10-2007, 18:58
Spanish Motorsport Federation get FIA to appoint a special scrutineer to ensure Alonso's treated fairly...

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7038494.stm)

tcbass
12-10-2007, 13:36
Spanish Motorsport Federation get FIA to appoint a special scrutineer to ensure Alonso's treated fairly...

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7038494.stm)

That's just hilarious.

sherer
12-10-2007, 14:14
it does seem to me that McLaren seem to get more FIA interference than any other team

keithwalton
12-10-2007, 14:32
funnily enough its because alonso suspected his final qualifying tyres were not at the correct pressure. He couldnt understand why he was slower than hammy. Sorry alonso but on that day hammy was just the better driver, he did a very 90's super soft qualifying tyre tactics just so they lasted the entire lap.

I do hope alonso comes 3rd overal and then goes to a different team so that he gets number 5 on his car. Then again number 2 would be fantastic if hammy had #1 :) though i dont think alonso could stomach that.

With regards to how well he's doing as a rookie, well to be fair rarely does a rookie start in a top 4 car, let alone a championship winning car (exception being jaques villneuve joining williams in 1996 when that car was dominent)

Hom3r
19-10-2007, 23:06
More tyre problems for Hamilton

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12527_2810816,00.html

Me thinks he might leave F1, and I don't blame him.

I'm getting fed up with all this $h*t.

I'm going to Leave F1, and follow A1GP, no Bernie to rob them blind.

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------

Sanity remains
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7053377.stm

tcbass
20-10-2007, 12:59
More tyre problems for Hamilton

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12527_2810816,00.html

Me thinks he might leave F1, and I don't blame him.

I'm getting fed up with all this $h*t.

I'm going to Leave F1, and follow A1GP, no Bernie to rob them blind.

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------

Sanity remains
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7053377.stm

Calm down man :)
This is/was just a standard rule infringement which was dealt with in an normal manner. It's just the press and their Hamilton-mania blowing it out of all proportions, pretty much forgetting to say Honda & Super Aguri did the same with Button & Sato. He was never going to be punished for that one as it was a team blunder.

There has always been rule infringements, Rule clarifications and investigations due to complaints within the sport which are all sorted out without all this drama in the press until now, to be quite frank all this crying in the press is getting quite tedious and starting to detract from the exciting racing. I'm sure the press and ITV :sick: would still call it the most exiting and closely fought season ever if Hamilton was/had already won the championship by 30 points.

If Hamilton leaves F1 (which I don't think he will do) just because the team he drives for were caught breaking the rules of the sport and someone dared complain about a bit of his driving (which frankly wasn't exactly stellar, and rightly investigated after a complaint, and found not to be bad enough to warrant sanctions) then he's the fool for that. He's going to clean up over the next 10-15 years if he stays.

BTW the point system should be changed to 12-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 in order to reward a race win properly. Then maybe the teams wouldn't all stop racing after the last pit stop :(

Hom3r
20-10-2007, 19:14
Lewis on front row (2nd)
Kimi 3rd

Alonso 4th

andygrif
21-10-2007, 02:05
More tyre problems for Hamilton

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12527_2810816,00.html

Me thinks he might leave F1, and I don't blame him.

I'm getting fed up with all this $h*t.

Strange, I didn't notice you jumping up and down when the two Fezzas were penalised for using the wrong tyres in the Fuji GP.

I think it's great we're all so passionate about Lewis winning, but I don't want him to win on the back of a bad judgement - I want the rule book to applied fairly and equally to all players...and in this instance I am happy that it has happened.

Hom3r
21-10-2007, 17:56
With less than ten mins to go before the final race of the 2007 season.

I hate bernie now even more.

This posionuios little $h*t whats Alonso to win.

Well if thats the case he can * off to Spain.

I would P**s on him even if he was on fire

TheDaddy
21-10-2007, 18:29
With less than ten mins to go before the final race of the 2007 season.

I hate bernie now even more.

This posionuios little $h*t whats Alonso to win.

Well if thats the case he can * off to Spain.

I would P**s on him even if he was on fire

I heard Bernie saying earlier he wanted Lewis to win and that he thought he'd win by a country mile, also he didn't hold put much hope for the British GP

Shadow Demon UK
21-10-2007, 18:29
Hamilton showed his inexperiance there trying to overtake Alonso when there was no need to, down to 18th but fighting his way through the pack, personally i think hes blown it unfortunately.

iadom
21-10-2007, 18:48
Up to 9th now, don't you just hate ITV, go to a break with Hamilton in 8th, come back and he is 18th :mad:

Jim.

Hom3r
21-10-2007, 19:33
WTF hamilton in the pits for fuel.

Goodbye F1 and goodbye ITV SH*T coverage

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

Just emailed this to ITV regarding there coverage

You coverage of F1 has been totally **** all season.

Yet again adverts are interupted by the racing

Hamilton was in 8th you sod off to an ad that nobody gives a **** about. come back he's 18th.

This coverage is not even 10th rate.

Well thanks for runing a desent sport.

You wouldn't put ads in football or rugby.

Goodbye to F1 I'm going to buy Sky sports and watch A1GP which doesn't do adverts during the race

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

Will post the responce i get

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

McLaren blew it.

As said before BYE BYE F1

Ferrari don't derseve this

Edit Rob - please watch the language

homealone
21-10-2007, 19:57
I have to say well done Raikkonen...

In my opinion McClaren have allowed themselves to be distracted by the events off track, recently, while Ferrari have just got on with it.

I could see the thinking behind the short stint on the fragile supersoft tyres, for Hamilton, but why they didn't fuel him to the end when he came in to change them, is a mystery?

Ironically, despite the disappointment, it was one of the most interesting & exiting races for ages, not only Hamiltons skills at passing (the one on Barrichello was awesome), but the scrap between Kubica & Rosberg, as well.

Hom3r
21-10-2007, 20:04
My gripe with the whole spygate issue is that once again Ferrari have been invold and don't get punished.

As has been said before FIA = Ferrari International Assistant

alferret
21-10-2007, 20:17
Hamilton drove a great race, yes he made a mistake going into the first, but Raikkonen shut the door on him, and rightly so. Due to a redundant system error his car found itself in netural,. Coming back from 18th to finish a race in 7th to lose the championship by 1 point in a rookie season showed that Lewis doesnt give up easily. Well done Hamilton for making the 2007 season a bit more enjoyable.

ITV, revenue is all they are after, squeezing in as many adverts as possible, shame on them. I miss the BBC coverage.

Jon T
21-10-2007, 20:18
In the pre race build up Bernie said that he thought Lewis was young enough to wait. I think Mr Hamilton's chances of winning the championship were ended there and then.

Wasn't it strange that Lewis' car lost powere for just long enough to spoil his chances of winning the championship.

No team orders? maybe not, but deffinatly Bernie/FIA orders. F! is becoming more stage managed than World Wrestling. The problem is though, that if you look just below the surface in F! you can very often predict the results from what key people say before the event.

papa smurf
21-10-2007, 20:23
gutted for lewis , but kimi won fair n square glad it wasnt allonso sick to death of him accusing every one else for his own downfall, as for tv coverage ,discusted ...advert after advert what the hell its only the grand finale, spoilt once again by itv

alferret
21-10-2007, 20:23
SNIP!
Wasn't it strange that Lewis' car lost power for just long enough to spoil his chances of winning the championship.


Very strange, but I really dont think is something that conspiracy theorist's will spend much time mulling it over. ;)

Cobbydaler
21-10-2007, 20:25
I have to say well done Raikkonen...

In my opinion McClaren have allowed themselves to be distracted by the events off track, recently, while Ferrari have just got on with it.

I could see the thinking behind the short stint on the fragile supersoft tyres, for Hamilton, but why they didn't fuel him to the end when he came in to change them, is a mystery?

Ironically, despite the disappointment, it was one of the most interesting & exiting races for ages, not only Hamiltons skills at passing (the one on Barrichello was awesome), but the scrap between Kubica & Rosberg, as well.

Ron said at the end that they gained 10 seconds by making it a 3 stop strategy... :shrug:

Woolly One
21-10-2007, 20:25
As has been said before FIA = Ferrari International Assistant

Love that!!!

It's going to be interesting to see what the editorials say tomorrow. Are we going to have headlines of 'LEW BLEW IT!' or a more constructive 'He came, he saw, he did his best, maybe next season?'

I would prefer the papers to take the latter option, as they have done with the England Rugby team.

Shadow Demon UK
21-10-2007, 20:27
I could see the thinking behind the short stint on the fragile supersoft tyres, for Hamilton, but why they didn't fuel him to the end when he came in to change them, is a mystery?


Ron Dennis reckons that Hamilton switching to a 3 stop strategy gave him a ten second advantage so was the right decision. I think Hamilton blew it when he tried to overtake Alonso in the first lap, there was no need what so ever to do that and shows that he was the rookie.

homealone
21-10-2007, 20:48
Ron said at the end that they gained 10 seconds by making it a 3 stop strategy... :shrug:

Ron Dennis reckons that Hamilton switching to a 3 stop strategy gave him a ten second advantage so was the right decision. I think Hamilton blew it when he tried to overtake Alonso in the first lap, there was no need what so ever to do that and shows that he was the rookie.


Thanks, I didn't see the interviews :)

iadom
21-10-2007, 20:52
I think Hamilton blew it when he tried to overtake Alonso in the first lap, there was no need what so ever to do that and shows that he was the rookie.

I disagree, he was still in 8th place until his car nearly gave out, he did very well to coax it back too life and finish where he did. The monumental cock up with the tyres in China and engine problems in this race is what cost him.
Jim.

Tricky
21-10-2007, 21:33
Ron Dennis reckons that Hamilton switching to a 3 stop strategy gave him a ten second advantage so was the right decision. I think Hamilton blew it when he tried to overtake Alonso in the first lap, there was no need what so ever to do that and shows that he was the rookie.

Would agree there - he tried too hard right from the beginning. His engine issue no doubt caused by his run off hence the change in stops as I bet they couldn't give him a complete tank to stop him bottom'ing out on the track

Always next year - no doubt he can drive and has had a great season

tcbass
21-10-2007, 22:16
:cleader: Fantastic result, Great job by Kimi and the team :cleader:

Lewis showed his inexperience as a rookie in the last couple of races, alongside some unreliability from the so far rock solid car. He will be WDC plenty of times in the future.

ITV :sick: coverage and the commentary was shocking. They are meant to keep a certain professional standard, and verbally willing cars to crash on the track is not it! I'm surprised they didn't start to cry at the end.

My gripe with the whole spygate issue is that once again Ferrari have been invold and don't get punished.

As has been said before FIA = Ferrari International Assistant

I really like the logic there; Some-one posses your classified documents and uses them to their advantage and you get punished for it.

Do I sense a sore looser here :D

mr_bo
21-10-2007, 23:38
Lewis could be world champ after all!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1289308,00.html

Cobbydaler
21-10-2007, 23:51
Something to do with the temperature of the fuel samples? :confused:

Link (http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1193001860/formula_one/F1headlines/Trio-under-investigation/view.html)

tcbass
21-10-2007, 23:57
Here we go again, watching a minor irregularity getting blown out of all proportions.

I think the temp was slightly high.

If any point deductions happens (by no mean a certainty), then precedence points towards team only.

Edit: Seems like the temperature in the BMW's was 12 degrees lower that ambient and that in Williams was 14 degrees lower.
I think the rules say it can only be 10 degrees lower.

Cobbydaler
22-10-2007, 00:00
Here we go again, watching a minor irregularity getting blown out of all proportions.

I think the temp was slightly high.

If any point deductions happens (by no mean a certainty), then precedence points towards team only.

Confusion reigns...

This (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156282-0/bmw_investigation_to_gift_hamilton_title.html) link says too cold! :erm:

TheDaddy
22-10-2007, 00:09
Lewis is being profiled on BBC 1 now if anyone is interested

iadom
22-10-2007, 00:10
Would agree there - he tried too hard right from the beginning. His engine issue no doubt caused by his run off

His 'run off' was not into a gravel trap or anything similar,I don't it could have affected his car in any way.


Jim.

mr_bo
22-10-2007, 00:13
Whilst I have always been patriotic in f1 with teams and drivers this does seem a little 'too' convenient to me, why is Nakajima who finished 10th in the other Williams not under investigation?

punky
22-10-2007, 00:15
Confusion reigns...

This (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/156282-0/bmw_investigation_to_gift_hamilton_title.html) link says too cold! :erm:

You're warmer (pun intended :))



6.5.4 No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature.
6.5.5 The use of any device on board the car to decrease the temperature of the fuel is forbidden.
6.6 Fuel sampling:
6.6.1 Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the Event.

I'm guessing the colder the fuel it is, the more dense it is which enhances performance. The principles applies to air intakes anyway.

danielf
22-10-2007, 00:20
I was reminded of this today. If you can't watch it for two minutes without laughing you're insane allegedly :)

http://katunk.com/insanity/?a=1

tcbass
22-10-2007, 00:25
the temp of the fuels were stored more than 10 degrease lower than the ambient temperature. Fuel has a higher density at lower temps.
Poss explanation could be that ambient temp was higher than expected.

Cobbydaler
22-10-2007, 01:43
Some more detail (http://www.forumula1.net/2007/f1/f1-news/end-of-season-drama-will-raikkonen-take-victory-after-all/)

Significantly below ambient temperature...

tcbass
22-10-2007, 02:01
No punishment for BMW or Williams.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63567

No doubt people will say it's all Ferrari's fault.:D

andygrif
22-10-2007, 10:18
Hamilton showed his inexperiance there trying to overtake Alonso when there was no need to, down to 18th but fighting his way through the pack, personally i think hes blown it unfortunately.

I assume we were watching the same race, but Hamilton didn't try to overtake Alonso, he was on the front of the starting grid, the two Ferraris took the first corner and Hamilton lost his third place to Alonso as he was concentrating on not hitting the back on Raikonnen. Perhaps that was down to his inexperience, but if Hamilton had a proper team-mate then perhaps it should not have been an issue.

WTF hamilton in the pits for fuel.

Goodbye F1 and goodbye ITV SH*T coverage
Just emailed this to ITV regarding there coverage

You coverage of F1 has been totally **** all season.

Yet again adverts are interupted by the racing

Hamilton was in 8th you sod off to an ad that nobody gives a **** about. come back he's 18th.

I agree that the coverage from Brazil was not great, it seemed that every time Hamilton went to overtake someone they cut away to something else.

However, this is not ITV's fault, it's the local TV director and not much ITV can do about it.

And I don't really see how ITV could have guessed that Hamilton was going to have a complete gearbox failiure whilst they were on a standard ad-break. Be reasonable!


You wouldn't put ads in football or rugby.

Now this I agree with, I would much rather have a whole race with no commercials - but the two things are too dissimilar; a football match can have adverts before the match, then 45 mins later, then 10 mins after that then 45 mins later again. So in 90 mins, 4 ad-breaks. In F1 you have your ads before and after, two ad breaks in 120 mins and it would just not be commercially viable.

I think to be fair to ITV, even though sometimes they do drop some of the better features, their pre-race coverage of F1 is usually superb.


I could see the thinking behind the short stint on the fragile supersoft tyres, for Hamilton, but why they didn't fuel him to the end when he came in to change them, is a mystery?

Ironically, despite the disappointment, it was one of the most interesting & exiting races for ages, not only Hamiltons skills at passing (the one on Barrichello was awesome), but the scrap between Kubica & Rosberg, as well.

I agree, two hours of total excitement, I can't remember a more dramatic race in years.

I think the deal with the pit styop to change the super softs was that there were around 35 laps to go from that point, and it was unlikely they could get enough fuel in there to the end of the race and keep race speed up.

In the pre race build up Bernie said that he thought Lewis was young enough to wait. I think Mr Hamilton's chances of winning the championship were ended there and then.

Wasn't it strange that Lewis' car lost powere for just long enough to spoil his chances of winning the championship.

No team orders? maybe not, but deffinatly Bernie/FIA orders. F! is becoming more stage managed than World Wrestling. The problem is though, that if you look just below the surface in F! you can very often predict the results from what key people say before the event.

I wondered how long it would take the conspiracy theorists to start their work! Anything can happen in F1, and yesterday most of it did - that's the way it goes sometimes.


Lewis showed his inexperience as a rookie in the last couple of races, alongside some unreliability from the so far rock solid car. He will be WDC plenty of times in the future.

In the last race the tyre failed, making the car un-steerable, ending his race. In yesterday's race the car had put itself in neutral for 30 seconds, dropping to 18th place.

Explain how these things are down to driver inexperience.

Saaf_laandon_mo
22-10-2007, 10:32
There could be a few more twists in this years championship http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7055644.stm

---------- Post added at 09:32 ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 ----------

I assume we were watching the same race, but Hamilton didn't try to overtake Alonso, he was on the front of the starting grid, the two Ferraris took the first corner and Hamilton lost his third place to Alonso as he was concentrating on not hitting the back on Raikonnen. Perhaps that was down to his inexperience, but if Hamilton had a proper team-mate then perhaps it should not have been an issue..

Alonso should have staged a retirement from the race when he knew he had no chance of catching the ferrari.

Shadow Demon UK
22-10-2007, 12:21
I assume we were watching the same race, but Hamilton didn't try to overtake Alonso, he was on the front of the starting grid, the two Ferraris took the first corner and Hamilton lost his third place to Alonso as he was concentrating on not hitting the back on Raikonnen. Perhaps that was down to his inexperience, but if Hamilton had a proper team-mate then perhaps it should not have been an issue.


Yes, then after that he tried to overtake Alonso and he went off the track and fell back to 8th place. IMO that's what cost him the championship, he showed a lot of inexperiance in trying to do something when there was no need whatsoever to do. I don't blame Alonso, even though i can't stand the bloke, he had a chance of winning the championship and had every right to do what he did, team play goes out of the window when you have two drivers on the same team both with a chance of winning the championship imo.


Alonso should have staged a retirement from the race when he knew he had no chance of catching the ferrari.

He would have been slightly annoyed if Raikkonen had spun off on the last corner though wouldn't he ;) Also the rules are that team instructions are not allowed to be given during the race and it would have been a bit of a hollow win for Hamilton if Mclaren had basically cheated for him to win the title, i would rather see him win it properly next year than cheat to win it this year.

Cobbydaler
22-10-2007, 14:00
Alonso's backing Kimi...

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7056308.stm)

Mr_love_monkey
22-10-2007, 14:07
Alonso's backing Kimi...

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7056308.stm)

There's a surprise.

Personally I do think it would be a rubbish way to win the championship - but I also wonder what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot and it was Ferrari that had lost by one point.

tcbass
22-10-2007, 23:51
In the last race the tyre failed, making the car un-steerable, ending his race. In yesterday's race the car had put itself in neutral for 30 seconds, dropping to 18th place.

Explain how these things are down to driver inexperience.

I can't believe you are not willing to cut the guy some slack here. He has driven fantastic the whole season (his first season in F1) and he only makes something like 3 mistakes, the 2 most serious ones at the end where the pressure is enormous. Coping under such intense pressure takes experience, which he has gained plenty of this season.

He showed (IMO) lack of experience as a rookie by overcooking it on the entry to the pits, easy to do as the tyres were in a dreadful state, can even be said that he was part of the tyre mistake by not sorting out the tyres earlier,as I'm sure he has input here, and it is ultimately his decision if comes in to the pits or not. He was trying to win the championship earlier than necessary. He Overdid it trying completely unnecessarily to overtake Alonso and ran wide when he could just have just tucked in and sat tight, a bit of the old red mist there me thinks.

After all he is human and it's not easy to win in your first season, lets not forget that, before jumping to all sorts of crazy theories.

sherer
23-10-2007, 10:57
actually just been reading that it was LH's fault as he hit a button on the steering wheel that put it into neutral.

he had a great season and just missed out. At least he missed out going for a win each time rather than just collecting points.

andygrif
24-10-2007, 01:30
I can't believe you are not willing to cut the guy some slack here. He has driven fantastic the whole season (his first season in F1) and he only makes something like 3 mistakes, the 2 most serious ones at the end where the pressure is enormous. Coping under such intense pressure takes experience, which he has gained plenty of this season.

<snip>

After all he is human and it's not easy to win in your first season, lets not forget that, before jumping to all sorts of crazy theories.

Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you doze off after the first paragraph?;)

actually just been reading that it was LH's fault as he hit a button on the steering wheel that put it into neutral.

he had a great season and just missed out. At least he missed out going for a win each time rather than just collecting points.

Source please?

Cos this is the official McLaren line just now:

Ron, can explain what happened to Lewis’s car?
We don’t quite know the exact cause of the problem yet. However, we can tell you that the result of this problem caused the gearbox system to go into default – to select neutral. This was probably caused by an incorrect command given to the system box. At this stage we do not know why the system received an incorrect command - it could be a sensor. When it defaulted it took a while to mentally recover and then the box worked perfectly after that.

And this is from the post-race interview with Lewis from the McLaren website

A lot of people are talking about the problems that you had in the race, you had rotten luck with the car, can you tell us what happened?
It wasn’t a great start to the race, I locked up behind Fernando basically to avoid hitting him and went a bit wide. I came back on and was quite relaxed, I knew that I had the pace to gain back my position and I was downshifting into turn 4 and it just went into neutral. I coasted for quite some time and eventually, I don’t know how, but it just eventually clicked back in and I was able to get it going again and from then on we had to manage the engine so I was quite low rpm.

sherer
24-10-2007, 10:42
got this from F1 Live

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071022220432.shtml

Seems to say it was LHs fault.

I think this is McLaren management here so that he doesn't spend the whole winter feeling he lost the title himself blame it on the team so he can come back stronger

Mr_love_monkey
24-10-2007, 10:51
got this from F1 Live

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071022220432.shtml

Seems to say it was LHs fault.


Hardly conclusive though? - the press has a habit of making things up to make stories

sherer
24-10-2007, 11:07
Hardly conclusive though? - the press has a habit of making things up to make stories

well i'll be far and say that I haven't that reported elsewhere but I feel this is a McLaren "strategy" to make Lewis feel better.

Seems to be better for him that he lost because of a car problem rather than driver error.

At least he lost going for a win in both races rather than just driving round picking up points

Woolly One
08-11-2007, 16:15
I know that this is now an 'old' thread, but spygate continues -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7085098.stm

Where will it end?

I seem to remember a race from several seasons ago, to which MS won. As soon as he was out of his car, he was having a good look round the cockpits of the P2 & P3 cars, to which the ITV commentators made light of, saying that he was making sure that they had nothing better than him. Didn't see him being investigated. However, having car specs is a bit different to having a 'quick look inside':)

sherer
08-11-2007, 17:26
the FIA shot themselves in the foot years ago when they allowed all the spying in the first place with cameras etc etc.

This is just the next step of that

Hom3r
16-11-2007, 21:57
Well Ferrari International Assistance (FIA) have done it again, and rejected Mclaren appeal.

I still wonder if it it because Mclaren would have had the world Drivers Championship sewn up.

I bet though if it had been McLaren at fault both Hamilton and Alson would have had thee points stripped.

As I said before goodbye F1, all crediability has been lost, while Max & Bernie are running things I'm outta here

tcbass
16-11-2007, 22:13
[snip]...As I said before goodbye F1, all crediability has been lost, while Max & Bernie are running things I'm outta here

So you reckon it would have been more credible if Lewis had won the Championship a month after the last race in court on an ambiguous technicality, on appeal lodged by a team that has been disqualified from this years championship for braking the rules... :confused:

Hom3r
16-11-2007, 22:17
No I'm not saying that, all I am saying is that this season they have been anti Mclaren, and very pro Ferrari.

What if the tables had been turned and Hamilton had won the race and Kimi had missed out by 1 point, and it was discovered later that McLaren has 'cooled' their fuel. FIA would have reject Ferrari's complaint.

I think not McLaren would have had the race results strip, handing Ferrari the Drivers Title.

tcbass
16-11-2007, 22:32
I don't think so. The FIA would only have changed the result for an extremely grave breach of rules as any post championship change would have been bad for the sport. I would have been shocked if it had.

I agree that this year has not been a great one for the FIA they should have brought out a much more decisive verdict on the Stepneygate first time round, instead of coming out with the ridiculous half*rsed verdict of guilty but no punishment and then have to try and sort out the mess afterwards.

Would you have been watching next year if Hamilton had won ??

Hom3r
16-11-2007, 22:42
Problerly not.

I did metion a few posts ago about the email I sent to ITV, and the adverts they show.

This is the main reason that I will not be watching next year

http://www.a1gp.com/ (http://www.a1gp.com/default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1)

tcbass
16-11-2007, 23:01
Fair enough, but that (the ads) have nothing really to do with F1 it self. Their coverage is truly shocking non the less.

Cobbydaler
06-12-2007, 22:31
Yet another baffling decision by FIA Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7129049.stm)

McLaren were good in saying they didn't want any team to suffer the punishment they did...

Hom3r
06-12-2007, 22:35
Not really FIA is very anti McLaren at the moment.

tcbass
07-12-2007, 11:45
Exactly the same verdict McLaren received for exactly the same crime, before it was discovered that they had used information from Ferrari.

As with the McLaren case the FIA have reserved the right to recall the case if new evidence comes to light. If this were to happen and Renault is found to have used information from McLaren (to their advantage) they should be punished accordingly.

P.S
I'm still of the opinion that both teams should have had a more decisive ruling and punishment for the crime committed in the first place. It would have been less messy in many ways (McLaren would have probably escaped with a lighter punishment and not gone to second hearing, and Renault would now have been punished for breaking the rules.)