Throttling

[Cozzy]

Hi all

for those that havent seen it yet ... although featured here before this is now confirmed at a 3rd party namely The Register

Telewest sent us the following statement:

As part of our continued efforts to improve our customers' broadband experience we are introducing measures to more efficiently and pro-actively manage network traffic. These measures are currently being trialled in the Preston region, which includes Preston, Wigan and Blackpool.

The measures identify traffic patterns that are deemed potentially abnormal and apply traffic management rules to ensure customers are not adversely affected. We believe this could offer a much more consistent experience for the vast majority - over 95 per cent - of customers.

These optimisation measures are only used in the evenings at peak time when the potential for abnormal traffic to have an adverse impact on our customers' experience is greatest.


full text at The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/21/blueyonder_gets_throttled/) .. and also featured at News-Shack (link in siggy)

IMHO .. its gonna get worse as its the first step especially as they havent put anykind of number on what they concieve to be a 'heavy' user

:Yikes:
Cozzy

[Graham M]

Throtterling?

[Cozzy]

Throtterling?

ok ok my fingers type faster than my eyes & brain .. lmao

Throttling ... traffic management .. ;) .. ill correct if i can .. lol

[MovedGoalPosts]

title changed ;)

[Cozzy]

title changed ;)

thankie kind sir ... :tu:

[zing_deleted]

Thats not a sin bin anyway its traffic shaping that was discussed ages ago in quite depth it dont even report to target heavy users it could effect a low user using p2p also

[york]

Yeah i was reading about that on the register, i have mixed feelings about it.

But i am biased right now, Lincoln is having some speed issues at the moment and i cant help but think its because of the excessive advertisment in this area, the slow downs only start occuring during peak times which is leading me to believe that the network is overstretched and overworked.

While a part of me is thinking yeah it would be good to limit those users who are excessive in thier broadband usage, another part of me is saying NTL stated to every single customer that they can have a broadband speed suited to thier needs, which is not the case.
Now we hear of this where NTL are planning or are already active in limitiing certain users regardless of what package they are subscribed too, not to mention the pinicle of NTLs sucess is based on the 'unlimited' usage of all thier customers.

It will be interesting to see what happens through trading standards when people realise that thier advertised and unlimited service becomes limited.

I suppose the best and most resonable solution would be for NTL to increase thier network capacity by spending some of thier profits on network infrastrusture to up thier capacity, not try and think of ways to change the rules so they can have more customers and yet provide the same collective bandwidth.

Yet with Xbillion debts i can see why they would choose this over actually spending money.

With this in mind it does raise a question: Whats to stop NTL abusing this by actively increasing the 'excessive use' policy to include moderatly active users (eg gamers)? In fact whats to stop them doing this to all customers? its not like we check our connection speeds daily and a drop of 100k, even on a 1mb line, isnt a noticable difference.

Just my thoughts.

[zing_deleted]

its not targeting users its targeting traffic


The measures identify traffic patterns that are deemed potentially abnormal and apply traffic management rules to ensure customers are not adversely affected. We believe this could offer a much more consistent experience for the vast majority - over 95 per cent - of customers.

it says it quite clearly

[york]

Users create that traffic, and im not having a go here but NTL also said that i could have an 'unlimited' 1MB service. Pretty clear too.

Also, NTLs wording on this issue is questionable, they provide an 'unlimited' service yet the word 'abnormal' seems to have been placed in there, as to thier 95% of customers guess, like i said once this starts it wont stop, soon NTL will be stealthily capping everyone so there is enough bandwidth for thier new customers, of course this will come back around and bite NTL on the **** when they realise people are leaving cos they aint getting what they paid for.

Think of it this way, NTL told everyone that NTL is an unlimited service, ive read it on the leaflets, seen it on tv, even heard it from the sales reps, yet when some users use more than someone else they are pleasantly placed in the 'sin bin' a pretty awful way to describe your customers who are only using the service the way it was advertised to them.

Fact is, NTL shouldnt have advertised that they provide an unlimited service when they dont have the infrastructure to support it.

[zing_deleted]

Yeah users that by the whole are using the service to break the law I am talking about when its working properly and targeting the correct traffic. I do not advocate this and I certainly do not condemn anyone who uses p2p to share but there is better out there ;) I personally and this is coming from a real leech once its working correctly ill be happy to be shaped if im effecting others I will be able to suss less busy times and leech then without being shaped. I think NTL are doing this for all the right reasons they just need to get it working properly

[Stuart]

Also, NTLs wording on this issue is questionable, they provide an 'unlimited' service yet the word 'abnormal' seems to have been placed in there, as to thier 95% of customers guess, like i said once this starts it wont stop, soon NTL will be stealthily capping everyone so there is enough bandwidth for thier new customers,

I'd be careful when criticising NTL's usage figures. That 95% figure was probably obtained using their network usage logs, which I doubt you have access to.

The "abnormal" users they refer to are those who regulalarly download a lot of data (I mean hundreds of gigabytes) and, incidentally, NTL take a fairly heavy LOSS on. As far as I understand, NTL's business model is based on the assumption that the profits obtained from the users who don't download an awful lot of data will counter balance the losses from those that do.

I have heard (from a source who would be in a position to know ) that 95% of their users don't download anywhere near hundreds of gigabytes..

[zing_deleted]

So am I wrong in my understanding of whats been posted in the op? Reading between the lines I see what it says as traffic shaping not actually targeting users just certain types of network traffic. This will effect a wider spectrum of users as light or mid users could still be using monitored traffic type.That seems clear as I highlighted in a previous post

[brundles]

It's becoming quite a long post but there is more detail on what's being done on this thread at another forum (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=483477). The more interesting stuff is in the last few pages.

From what's there it seems to indicate that once you hit the thresholds your connection is throttled back to a certain level rather than managing on traffic types (which I would also prefer).

[york]

I understand peoples responce to bandwidth hogs, i understand that they effect the network and everyone else, i also understand that some users are getting more for thier money than others. But it still does not negate the fact that NTL have an unlimited service, an unrestricted service, a .. oh you get the point.

You cannot blame someone for DL 24/7 365 on a service thats unlimited, you can however, blame a company that claims to provide an unlimited service then punishing 'anyone' who DL's something between 4pm-midnight, this does not target the bandwidth hogs who will still be DL 24/7 365 anyways regardless, the only thing they will have to put up with is half speeds for 8 hours.

Now look at the majority of users, folk like me and you who DL stuff as and when we need too, not 24/7, if you DL something between 4pm-midnight you will also be punished for it, even if you used the internet for 4 hours from 6pm to 10pm and have the comp switched off after that, you will be punished during that time, this is not fair, it does not solve the problem of excessive users AND it places a possible restriction on the service to all customers.

In the end NTL are here to make money, best way of making money it to give less and take more, 'traffic shaping' is the solution to that issue of financial gain, they have x amount of capacity yet they want more customers without having to spend money to increase that capacity, now ask yourself the question, what if more and more customers sign up to NTL? what happens if NTL wont increase capacity? Traffic shaping is the answer, i know it, you know it, NTL knows it.

They also know that thier 'unlimited' service is what attracts thier huge market share, they wont give it up, they will bend the truth, be selective in the information they provide, even do things without telling you and all because of the humongus debt they have, fact is NTL need to make more money than it ever has before, things will change, you wait and see.

But at least there is hope, ADSL is coming up to standards and more companies are taking up positions to provide it.

[RXP]

Just do all your (big) downloads from 00:30-07:00. I do that once a week and get mostly all my raw HDTV I'm gonna watch. I effectively use NTL as an IPTV service and use the free SkyBB to browse since NTL sucks at prime time.

[|Kippa|]

The principle of throttling isn't bad, but it seems to kick in after downloading 1.5gb which is not too much by todays standards, for example the latest patch for Battlefield 2 is 500mb! And as for "only on during peak times" it was throttling my connection till 1.45am. :(

[Diadem]

Here is a internal memo from NTL:Telewest I got earlyer tonight, there is nothing stated in it to say that customer are not ment to be informed of this

Important - Subscriber Trafic

What we are doing
NTLTelewest are conducting an open ended trial using subscriber Tracffic Management. This is currently being implemented on a small part of the ex-Telewest network. The areas are Preston Wigan and Blackpool.

Why are we doing this.
The trial aims to prevent or reduce the effects of a minority of customers who are downloading large files consistently during peak hours, thus preventing the majority of customers from enjoying an optimal customer experiance. For instance we know that around 10% of these users utilise up to 70% if network capacity.

What is the customer experience.
Those customers in Preston, Wigan and Blackpool areas who have the policies applied to there connection between the hours of 4pm and midnight will experiance their download / upload speeds being constrained by around 50% for 2 hours, after which their service will return to normal. This can happen more than once during that period. We are closely monitoring their experience, early indactaions suggest that on average this affects only a small % of our users.

Remember that this is only a trial & we are enforcing a policy which is already covered as part of the blueyonder Hi-speed Internet and dial up Terms abd conditions section E15 Use of the service which states:- 'We reserve the right to restrict access to the 'service' and to impose data traffic restrications at our discreation, in order to impement new facilities, allow data retrieval and maintain service levels.'

From monday the 20 November we will be making this clear to those customers who ask direct question about STM. This may generate customer dissatisfation and as such may result in customer complaints, - omited last part for internal use only -( I had to type this in sorry if there are any spelling mistakes I only got a paper copy )

I ask you not to call up tech support and complain, the reason for this action being taken are clearly stated. You should be able to see that this is not going to affect that 90% of custmers that dont use News groups and torrents 24/7.

I know what people have to go through due to what is happening to network right now, I say this is for the better, Im not bias at all in saying this and as you can see there not doing it all day. As has been said befor the traffic that creats this problem is really in all intent and purpose illegal trafficed data your warezed programs and "free movies/TV shows".

[Druchii]

I find it sad they can't handle the kind of data they are effectively marketting as available though.

To be honest, could this be the reason my upload seems to get chopped to 25 - 30kbps instead of the optimum 45kbps nightly? Causes problems with Skype and gaming... Very annoying.

Is there a current cut-off limit we should know about before this steps into effect on our connections Diadem? I'm not a heavy user but feel the problems of a heavily used network here in Doncaster.

[Diadem]

I find it sad they can't handle the kind of data they are effectively marketting as available though.

To be honest, could this be the reason my upload seems to get chopped to 25 - 30kbps instead of the optimum 45kbps nightly? Causes problems with Skype and gaming... Very annoying.

Is there a current cut-off limit we should know about before this steps into effect on our connections Diadem? I'm not a heavy user but feel the problems of a heavily used network here in Doncaster.

Yes it is to a point and im not here to difend them but the jump to 10Mb happend so fast. Now im not stating as fact here but i think it was to fast for the network to handle.
Some thing else that needs to be taken in to account, do you honsitly think that those 10% of users are downloading legal content I dont. I know first hand it aint.

My geography aint to good, should be with the job im doing tbh, If Doncaster is under on of those areas It might be or It could be down to UBR issues such as SNR problems.
But if you are in one of the 3 areas above then give it a weeks or 2 and see what happens.
Druchii If you PM me I could have a look at you problem and see if there are any service effecting issues.

[Druchii]

I'll give it a week or so, then i shall probably PM you Diadem, thanks.

Been informed my Norwegian friends internet connection is been worked on, so, that could be the issue with skype as that's the main person i talk to. However i have seen random disconnects to UK friends as well.

I'm sure Doncaster is nowhere near any of the shaped/managed areas. So, i've ruled that out thinking about it. I only ever see a downstream of around 3mbps though, with, an without the router. I have been keeping a log of bad disconnects and performance. But, it's not very detailed at all. And nothing really recently, other than slow upload and lower downstream.