View Full Version : Traffic Shaping (again)
On the Newshosting support group their representative posted this in a thread that I thought was interesting:
Hopefully NTL will get back w/ us next
week w/ a fix. They've admitted they made some "router changes" on nodes
with "heavy downloaders" but so far that's all we've heard.
and also
c) NTL has admitted to making router changes a few months ago that would
effect "heavy downloaders" ; their exact words.
to me that sounds like the heavy downloaders are impacting other users service levels and so ntl have every right to slow them down to make it a more level playing field for everyone in that area
Luckily for us the law determines are rights and obligations under contract. When I signed my contract traffic shaping wasn't a term. (unlike with Sky, who specifically say you will be moved to heavy users if >120gb a month).
Furthermore, in practice their 'traffic shaping' doesn't work. It slows down everyone in certain areas during prime time. If they only slowed down during prime time I would have no problems with that (apart from the legal one). I mean who the hell cares if anyone downloads heavily in the middle of the night? It doesn't effect the network.
Fair usage is probably mentioned in your contract ;)
Luckily for us the law determines are rights and obligations under contract. When I signed my contract traffic shaping wasn't a term. (unlike with Sky, who specifically say you will be moved to heavy users if >120gb a month).
The legal one is covered. For a start, when I signed up (in 2000), there was a clause in NTL's Acceptable Use Policy that enabled them to take action against heavy downloaders.
For another thing, if they do make any major changes to the terms and conditions of the service, for 30 days, they (AFAIK) allow people to leave without penalty.
....... for 30 days, they (AFAIK) allow people to leave without penalty.
Thats not NTL playing nice, its your legal right.
They dont advertise it, its mentioned nowhere, and if you try to terminate your contract early with them for this reason you have to argue it out before you can.
The legal one is covered. For a start, when I signed up (in 2000), there was a clause in NTL's Acceptable Use Policy that enabled them to take action against heavy downloaders.
I wasn't aware that NTL contracted to 6 year terms. I was under the impression that the current contract is what everyone is under which DID NOT contain a 'fair usage policy'. I specifically signed the contract because of a lack of 'fair usage policy'. I know I can leave if I want to, problem is not many people are aware of this. Fair usage policies are also junk terms. They are completely at the discretion of your ISP and set down no criteria. If X is downloading 1000gb a month, however it is entirely during the time between 00:00 and 06:00, that does not impact on other users. However, if there is a hard cap of 120gb a month to invoke the sanctions under the FUP it is contractually fine, even though it doesn't affect the network.
The legal problem is NTL haven't actually inserted anything new into the contract, so you cannot invoke your right to terminate the contract early. They're doing what they please and bypassing legal remedies. If you phone up CS they are clueless as to the traffic shaping.
It's also a shame that the initial traffic shaping was as a result of 'undercover' info and the new moving heavy users together is as a result of another service provider.
Thats not NTL playing nice, its your legal right.
They dont advertise it, its mentioned nowhere, and if you try to terminate your contract early with them for this reason you have to argue it out before you can.
I never said NTL were playing nice. I was just pointing out it's there.
On the Newshosting support group their representative posted this in a thread that I thought was interesting:
and also
Is that support group on the newsgroups ?
I wasn't aware that NTL contracted to 6 year terms. I was under the impression that the current contract is what everyone is under which DID NOT contain a 'fair usage policy'. I specifically signed the contract because of a lack of 'fair usage policy'. I know I can leave if I want to, problem is not many people are aware of this. Fair usage policies are also junk terms. They are completely at the discretion of your ISP and set down no criteria. If X is downloading 1000gb a month, however it is entirely during the time between 00:00 and 06:00, that does not impact on other users. However, if there is a hard cap of 120gb a month to invoke the sanctions under the FUP it is contractually fine, even though it doesn't affect the network.
The legal problem is NTL haven't actually inserted anything new into the contract, so you cannot invoke your right to terminate the contract early. They're doing what they please and bypassing legal remedies. If you phone up CS they are clueless as to the traffic shaping.
Who mentioned a 6 year contract term? I didn't. I merely pointed out that when I signed up, there was a reference in the Acceptable Use Policy to taking action against heavy users.
As I understand it, everyone on NTL is on a rolling contract. Thus, continued use of the services after the initial 12 months is up is deemed to be acceptance of any change in the terms and conditions (of which I believe the Acceptable Use Policy to be part).
Also, bear in mind that ANY contract NTL use will have been checked by NTL's legal department, who have, I am sure, made sure that any terms and conditions are legal, if not exactly nice for the customer.
etccarmageddon
07-11-2006, 11:57
"Luckily for us the law determines are rights and obligations under contract."
as you pay them on a monthly basis - either £18, £25 or £35 - what exactly are you going to claim for if you take them to court?
it's not like you're a company who've shelled out £10k for an annual subscription of a leased line only to find they've reduced the service significantly part way through the year. you're buying a retail service and paying no more than £35 a month for it. the biggest claim you could make would be £35?
i always thought contracts of this nature could be changed any time they see fit providing that they make notice to the customer that terms are changing?
i always thought contracts of this nature could be changed any time they see fit providing that they make notice to the customer that terms are changing?
They are legal, as long as the notify the customer (as you say) and as long as they allow those who object to leave.
Who mentioned a 6 year contract term? I didn't. I merely pointed out that when I signed up, there was a reference in the Acceptable Use Policy to taking action against heavy users.
If a FUP is in a contract 6 years old it has no bearing on contracts presently. That is why I had to assume that you were on a 6 year contract, otherwise the reference to the FUP of 6 years ago is irrelevant. Which was, infact, the case.
Also, bear in mind that ANY contract NTL use will have been checked by NTL's legal department, who have, I am sure, made sure that any terms and conditions are legal, if not exactly nice for the customer.
Of course the terms are legal. The conduct after it is in question. Because there is no fair usage policy in place! They haven't updated the terms since, therefore, those of us who wish to choose to exercise our legal right to terminate the contract will have difficulties especially since CS has no idea about the shaping.
Graham M
07-11-2006, 12:36
Erm yes there is a FUP...
"Luckily for us the law determines are rights and obligations under contract."
as you pay them on a monthly basis - either £18, £25 or £35 - what exactly are you going to claim for if you take them to court?
it's not like you're a company who've shelled out £10k for an annual subscription of a leased line only to find they've reduced the service significantly part way through the year. you're buying a retail service and paying no more than £35 a month for it. the biggest claim you could make would be £35?
The term is for 12 months, since shaping started a couple months ago if NTL would not let me terminate their service without penality I would sue for compensatory damages of 9 months x £35 and win. And under contract law consideration is consideration. It doesn't matter if it's £0.50p or £1bn. It's the principle here that NTL are doing what they want without telling their customers or inserting updated provisions in the contract.
Cause in all honesty I'm not bothered by the awful 512k speeds on a 10mbit service at prime time. All I want is fast downloads in non prime time. Part of me just wants them to refuse a termination and take it to court, it'd be fun.
---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------
Erm yes there is a FUP...
Please cite it. I cannot find anything on NTL's website and when I signed up there was none.
Hopefully NTL will get back w/ us next
week w/ a fix. They've admitted they made some "router changes" on nodes
with "heavy downloaders" but so far that's all we've heard.
to me that sounds like the heavy downloaders are impacting other users service levels and so ntl have every right to slow them down to make it a more level playing field for everyone in that area
That's all very well and good, but surely the "router changes" that NTL have made on these particular nodes will affect some people who aren't regarded as heavy downloaders.
If a FUP is in a contract 6 years old it has no bearing on contracts presently. That is why I had to assume that you were on a 6 year contract, otherwise the reference to the FUP of 6 years ago is irrelevant. Which was, infact, the case.
The contract, as I said, is rolling. It is (therefore) renewed annually, and the terms and conditions in force at the time the contract is renewed apply. The FUP I mentioned DOES have a bearing because it is exactly what NTL are doing. If you look at the terms and conditions (which, if you are on a rolling contract and have not cancelled, you are deemed to have accepted), they DO also make reference to measures to control heavy use.
20. Use of the Network (Internet Services)
20.2 Data Usage
Nobody may use the Internet Services, either directly or indirectly in excess of the usage allowances set out in this section.
Our Internet Services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who exceed the usage allowances applicable to the Internet Services may reduce the performance of the network for other customers.
In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet Services. During any period of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your Internet Services charges at the original level. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet Services to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge.
The following tables (which will be updated from time to time) set out the download speed, monthly usage allowance and price for ntl's Broadband Internet Services and ntl's Freedom Internet Services:
Broadband Internet Service
(download speed) Monthly Usage Allowance
(downstream &/or upstream) Monthly Price
512K Unlimited £14.99 1
512K Unlimited £17.99 2
2Mb Unlimited £17.99
4Mb 3 Unlimited £24.99
10Mb Unlimited £34.99
The table says it's unlmited with no FUP.
Please cite it. I cannot find anything on NTL's website and when I signed up there was none.
From http://www.home.ntl.com/page/userpolicy section 20.2
20.2 Data Usage
Nobody may use the Internet Services, either directly or indirectly in excess of the usage allowances set out in this section.
Our Internet Services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who exceed the usage allowances applicable to the Internet Services may reduce the performance of the network for other customers.
In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet Services. During any period of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your Internet Services charges at the original level. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet Services to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge.
Also see : http://www.home.ntl.com/page/additionalinformation and http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential
Particularly sections 20 and 26 of the terms and conditions.
---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------
The table says it's unlmited with no FUP.
That document you referred to IS the fair use policy.
That was my point earlier though, it's just junk. It says your use is subject to the limits applicable to 'your internet services'. Those are defined in the table. Which says it's unlimited. So my 4mbit is unlimited. So it's saying my usage is subject to the provision that I don't use it over an unlimited amount. That is just not logical.
For example further down 20.2 it says
Freedom Internet Service4
(download speed) Monthly Usage Allowance
(downstream &/or upstream) Monthly Price
Up to 1Mb 5GB £17.99
Up to 1Mb with a telephone service 30GB From £16.99p
Which provides caps for this service. So to construe this term as a whole, they clearly provide caps for the 'Freedom' service and NOT ours.
In sum, the limit to my applicable internet service is 'unlimited'. Which is non-sequitur. I know NTL used to have another provision in there for FUP a while back, because that's a reason I never went to them. Then they removed it and that's why I joined.
Still I'm not a heavy user and i'm suffering. So are tons of people in the 'speed test' thread.
Edit: and thank you Stuart for referring me to this:
[clause 26] - we reserve the right to change the terms and conditions of this Agreement and/or the Services which we provide to you as soon as is reasonably practicable by giving written notice to you prior to the changes being introduced. We will also publish details of any changes (including the operative date) in each of our main offices and/or on our website as soon as possible prior to the changes being introduced.
The changes were introduced months ago. I have still yet to receive any information. If it wasn't for 'undercover' work there wouldn't even be an announcement on this main page. They're meant to tell us even before the changes are introduced.
The problem with NH is related to the number of threads you need to use, not total bandwidth.
It is NTL specific, but I dont see why NTL would limit the speed on any particular thread, when you can just up the number of threads to max your connection anyway. :confused:
i.e. If I download using just the 8 'allowed' threads - slow performance 400k/s. up that to 15 or more connections and I'm back to 1.17mb/s.
Now I've used other newsgroup providers and do not have the same problem with them (as I've told NH support) so either NTL are specifically restricting connections to NH only, or its a NH problem. (or possibly something with the route NTL users take to NH).
Personally I dont think its traffic shaping or anything deliberate NTL have done. But there is a problem somewhere.
But NTL just said to NH that they're moving 'heavy users' to new routers. This, NH , assume is causing the crap speeds for everyone. What is meant to be helping the network is, in fact, hurting it. But yah I mainly think it's a routing problem with newshosting to NTL themselves. But it's just interesting to see that NTL were doing something funky with the routers.
Besides now that giganews has introduced SSL, no ISP will be able to shape usenet :-)
But NTL just said to NH that they're moving 'heavy users' to new routers. This, NH , assume is causing the crap speeds for everyone. What is meant to be helping the network is, in fact, hurting it. But yah I mainly think it's a routing problem with newshosting to NTL themselves. But it's just interesting to see that NTL were doing something funky with the routers.
Besides now that giganews has introduced SSL, no ISP will be able to shape usenet :-)
I suspect NH are being fobbed off by someone in NTL to be honest. Can you imagine how hard it is to actually get to speak to someone in NTL who could investigate a problem like this?
Having no restrictions or controls. <<< thats what unlimited mean`s.
I am not sure what packet shaping is and how it is affecting peoples services but was wondering if this could be the reason why my 4Mb connection as dropped down to half a meg over the last few weeks. I am not a heavy user I don't use P2P but my browsing is slow and there is a remarkable slow down in pages loading. Called tech support kept me online for over 30mins running tests and changing things and they are sending an engineer out tommorow as they couldn't find anything wrong. I am not sure if engineer will be able to solve problem as it looks like a wider area thing at the moment. I am not happy as I pay for a 4Mb and I don't see why I should be restricted because of heavy users in my area. NTL still want to take the £24.99 for a 4Mb service but only provide not even anywhere near that speed. I can get a half a meg service from elsewhere at a lot lower cost than £24.99. I feel I'm being fleeced and ntl are fraudulantly taking money for a level of service they are not providing hoping the customer will not notice. They better take notice that people are noticing even my neighbours and those who don't know soon will when word gets around and ntl will have to start reducing peoples bills accordingly. This might be just the straw that breaks the camels back this time. :td:
Latest Results.
Downstream570.5 Kbps( = 0.6 Mbps ) Upstream371.0 Kbps( = 0.4 Mbps
they are giving you a connection that is said to reach 10mb, they do not guarentee you will get 10mb, the contract doesn't state that either. an 'unlimited' usage means ntl won't stop you using the connection. they can slow you down as per the contract allows.
when you buy a car, you are allowed full access to the public roads, do you complain at the government for putting in speed restrictions? thats all ntl are doing.
and regarding the "restrictions" not working, just because your speeds have slowed down, how do you know there isn't 10 customers that have gone from 100kbit to 1mbit because of ntl slowing you down?
as with all traffic shaping issues people make too much out of nothing, if you want a dedicated 10mb line that will let you max it out 24/7 and give you the right to complain/compensation when it drops, go get a leased line and pay for that
They breached their own damn contract, making analogies about cars and a sovereign Parliament enacting speed limits is like...... irrelevant.
as with all traffic shaping issues people make too much out of nothing, if you want a dedicated 10mb line that will let you max it out 24/7 and give you the right to complain/compensation when it drops, go get a leased line and pay for that
No.
I want a 4mbit line that runs at 4mbit. I also have Sky, it runs fine at 8mbit.
they can slow you down as per the contract allows.
No it doesn't. It allows them to enact whatever measures they see fit if I go over a threshold of usage. However for our services this is 'unlimited', a cap only applies to 'Freedom internet services'. Therefore they cannot slow anyone down no matter how much they use it.
My speeds and others are coming up regularly below 512K at present. That is not broadband. I pay for broadband I want broadband end of story. :td:
Downstream486.2 Kbps( = 0.5 Mbps ) Upstream359.8 Kbps( = 0.4 Mbps )
Hi All,
Just a point to note
A contract is an agreement between two or more parties.
If one side can change the contract within the terms then so can the other.
Anyone thought of trying it out lol
I want a 4mbit line that runs at 4mbit. I also have Sky, it runs fine at 8mbit.
go pay for a line that somes with a 100% sla then :) ntl do not give any guarentees to available or speed on their internet connections (residential anyway)
No it doesn't. It allows them to enact whatever measures they see fit if I go over a threshold of usage. However for our services this is 'unlimited', a cap only applies to 'Freedom internet services'. Therefore they cannot slow anyone down no matter how much they use it.
http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential
in particular:
17.2 We reserve the right to suspend the Services or terminate this Agreement in whole or in part if your use of the Services (a) risks degradation of service levels to other customers, (b) puts the ntl Network at risk and/or (c) is not in keeping with that reasonably expected of a residential customer.
and same link, Part C:
4.3 We reserve the right to monitor and control data volume and/or types of traffic transmitted via the Interactive Services and/or Internet Services. In the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services as detailed in the User Policy, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet Services. During any time of reduction or suspension, you will remain liable for the payment of your original level of Internet Services charge. We also reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to re-grade your Internet Services to a different speed and/or usage allowance at the appropriate charge.
looks perfectly fine to me.
Hi All,
Just a point to note
A contract is an agreement between two or more parties.
If one side can change the contract within the terms then so can the other.
Anyone thought of trying it out lol
Just make sure you've got better lawyers, and can afford the legal bill ;)
What has that got to do with the fact that they're moving heavy users onto the router and shaping their traffic? I'm confused. Other ISP's dont seem to be having users on less than 5% of their advertised speed.
To use your speed limit analogy, our government says all cars go at 70mph max on the motorway. It doesn't say that BMW's travel at 10mph and Skoda's travel at 70mph. It applies to everyone and to all.
And FFS, the relevant limitation for our internet services is UNLIMITED AS PER THE CLAUSE IN 20.2. SO NONE OF THE LIMITS CAN BE INVOKED BECAUSE YOU CANNOT GO OVER AN 'UNLIMITED' THRESHOLD.
What has that got to do with the fact that they're moving heavy users onto the router and shaping their traffic? I'm confused. Other ISP's dont seem to be having users on less than 5% of their advertised speed.
To use your speed limit analogy, our government says all cars go at 70mph max on the motorway. It doesn't say that BMW's travel at 10mph and Skoda's travel at 70mph. It applies to everyone and to all.
And FFS, the relevant limitation for our internet services is UNLIMITED AS PER THE CLAUSE IN 20.2. SO NONE OF THE LIMITS CAN BE INVOKED BECAUSE YOU CANNOT GO OVER AN 'UNLIMITED' THRESHOLD.
what i quoted has nothing to do with limits, it simply states, if you impact another users speed, they can slow you down regardless if you do 1mb a month or 1000000000mb a month
The contract and policies don't though.
17.2 Does, I agree. However as you also cited 4.3
n the event that you exceed the usage allowances applicable to your Internet Services as detailed in the User Policy, we reserve the right (at our sole discretion) to reduce, suspend or terminate your Internet Services
If you exceed the usage allowance applicable to you as per User Policy. What does User Policy say? It's unlimited.
Construed as a whole, the terms and conditions do not allow for what NTL are clearly doing. While 17.2 does give them broad powers if someone is effecting others connection. It is in contradiction with everything else I have cited.
Even so 17.2 does not give them broad reaching powers to slow down all these internet connections. I'm *not* a heavy user and I get 5% of 10mbit. Actually I'll correct myself, I guess it does because it is at their sole discretion. So we're getting screwed over by the fact that NTL can define 1mb a month use as impacting on another user. Even though it's not reasonable.
On the Newshosting support group their representative posted this in a thread that I thought was interesting:
and also
Question.
why can i get full speed from giganews at any time of the day. I have until the 10th of November a account with Newshosting and for the last 2 months have NEVER been able to get above 600kB with them unless i use lot and lots of slots, then they send me emails saying they will close my account unless i use only 8. So i voted with my feet and went to giganews. I have had perfect speeds since. ?
I cannot see NTL picking on just 1 NGP and if they are traffic shaping NTTP then why is Giganews not affected ?.
Oh and i am a heavy user trust me. There are some on this forum who know just how heavy.;)
I do tend to do most of my downloads overnight so as to not affect other users at peak times.
The contract and policies don't though.
17.2 Does, I agree. However as you also cited 4.3
If you exceed the usage allowance applicable to you as per User Policy. What does User Policy say? It's unlimited.
Construed as a whole, the terms and conditions do not allow for what NTL are clearly doing. While 17.2 does give them broad powers if someone is effecting others connection. It is in contradiction with everything else I have cited.
Even so 17.2 does not give them broad reaching powers to slow down all these internet connections. I'm *not* a heavy user and I get 5% of 10mbit.
there are multiple reasons they can slow you down, one being you affecting other users (this is a single condition, regardless of other factors). going off the aup they cant slow you down for going over a usage limit (as one doesn't exist) but that doesn't stop them slowing you (or anyone) down for affecting others speeds. you can affect others speeds even if you are a light user, the average user i would guess is a light user but one who only uses it from say 6pm to 10pm. too many of this type of user means people affecting others speeds, for ntl to give everyone a level playing field they'll slow people down to the minimum needed to not slow anyone else down so if theres 100 people on a single 100mbit line, they'll all get 1mbit which is as fair as possible. granted this isn't the most ideal solution, but will help with pings and the like. it is also probably a temp solution untill ntl get more capacity in those areas
Hmmm, that's true I agree they can arbitrarily claim that my slow down is due to this reason. However, in the past they've sent out letters to heavy users or slowed them down to an unlimited 512k service.
Also the slowing down is occuring on a mass scale, since they are shaping and moving users around routers. The shaping is not something they can do, or move users around because of
[clause 26] - we reserve the right to change the terms and conditions of this Agreement and/or the Services which we provide to you as soon as is reasonably practicable by giving written notice to you prior to the changes being introduced. We will also publish details of any changes (including the operative date) in each of our main offices and/or on our website as soon as possible prior to the changes being introduced.
Traffic shaping and moving heavy users around is a change in the terms and conditions. All ISP's I have seen have this in their contract, Sky actually specifically say you'll be moved with heavy users if you continue to abuse the service. Yet they haven't written anything on their website, or told me I'm a heavy user that's why my net is being slowed down.
Hmmm, that's true I agree they can arbitrarily claim that my slow down is due to this reason. However, in the past they've sent out letters to heavy users or slowed them down to an unlimited 512k service.
Also the slowing down is occuring on a mass scale, since they are shaping and moving users around routers. The shaping is not something they can do, or move users around because of
Traffic shaping and moving heavy users around is a change in the terms and conditions. All ISP's I have seen have this in their contract, Sky actually specifically say you'll be moved with heavy users if you continue to abuse the service. Yet they haven't written anything on their website, or told me I'm a heavy user that's why my net is being slowed down.
I honestly believe that within 2 years ALL isp's will traffic shape as it allows them to say they are unlimited. How hard they shape is the question.
I cannot see NTL picking on just 1 NGP and if they are traffic shaping NTTP then why is Giganews not affected ?.
I agree, I said that NH's routing is at fault earlier. But the fact is NH found out something about NTL that we didn't know what was going on. So they're not shaping NNTP but something is going on with all these slow speeds.
Do you get full giganews speed at prime time?
---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------
I honestly believe that within 2 years ALL isp's will traffic shape as it allows them to say they are unlimited. How hard they shape is the question.
But the future is IPTV, big heavy bandwidth uses. The ISP's who don't upgrade their networks will loose out to the ones that can offer high bandwidth services. Also shaping will become a problem, especially since NTL themselves are using bittorent.
Also no amount of shaping in the world will control NNTP now, since providers are introducing SSL.
Also no amount of shaping in the world will control NNTP now, since providers are introducing SSL.
still easily possible, just traffic shape everything then whitelist http, dns, ftp, ssh, pop, smtp etc
Easynews used to do NNTP over a HTTP webinterface. It was HTTPS.
*think it was Easynews, long time ago.
brundles
07-11-2006, 17:15
But the future is IPTV, big heavy bandwidth uses. The ISP's who don't upgrade their networks will loose out to the ones that can offer high bandwidth services. Also shaping will become a problem, especially since NTL themselves are using bittorent.
Also no amount of shaping in the world will control NNTP now, since providers are introducing SSL.
Traffic shaping is designed to help exactly the applications you describe - by shaping/restricting (relatively) non-time critical applications like NNTP and Bittorrent tehy can give priority to time critical applications like VOIP and IPTV.
Bandwidth is expensive and has the problem that you can't account for the extremes. Any ISP will only provide enough bandwidth to cope for their average busy hour (as it were). Even with higher average bandwidths I wouldn't want to try watching a major football match over IPTV - what happens when everyone is trying to use the same high bandwidth app? Compare it to mobile phone networks - they work fine 99% (actually 99.999% if engineered properly) of the time, but when it comes to New Year just how many calls can you actually get through that network?
There are ways around it and to make the network more effective but as a business they will (probably) do a cost/benefit analysis to work out the best solution. At the end of the day as someone has already said if they can make 10 customers happier by throttling one that's what they're going to do.
Oh, and if everyone starts shovelling high bandwidth traffic through SSL in an attempt to dodge traffic shaping you'll just force the ISPs to shape SSL too.
Traffic shaping could also be an excuse for ISP's to oversubscribe their network without making upgrades, thus increasing profit margins.
I dont have a problem with shaping if it's done legally and works well. Doing it behind the door, however is a big no no to me. And everything is slow for me at prime time, not just P2P.
What part of the country you guys in - it was pretty poor about two weeks ago, in Leeds, and has now gone back to normal.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2006/11/52.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
Traffic shaping could also be an excuse for ISP's to oversubscribe their network without making upgrades, thus increasing profit margins.
i think you'll find practically all isp's oversubscribe, thats the whole point of contention ratios
I'm in Coventry NW 263Kbs Down 367Kbs Up. **** Poor for download upload spot on.
I agree, I said that NH's routing is at fault earlier. But the fact is NH found out something about NTL that we didn't know what was going on. So they're not shaping NNTP but something is going on with all these slow speeds.
Do you get full giganews speed at prime time?
Yes i can but dont do big downloads at peak times.
They can shape ssl if they want. :(
Yah I'm aware of that and how high will those ratios go as a result of traffic shaping? They'll think they can get away with higher ratios. Which is what has happened in E17. They 'upgraded' recently because of too many users (per CS) and it's worse than it was before
Yes i can but dont do big downloads at peak times.
They can shape ssl if they want. :(
They can shape *any* protocol, whether encrypted or not. They don't need to see the data, just to recognise it's encrypted.
Yah but it's about practicality, they can shape freakin HTTP if they want but they're not gonna. It'd be using a knife when you need a scalpel. That's why I'm looking forward to webbased usenet accesses too
Yah but it's about practicality, they can shape freakin HTTP if they want but they're not gonna. It'd be using a knife when you need a scalpel. That's why I'm looking forward to webbased usenet accesses too
This is what i can get at the moment. Ran a download for a short while to show the speed. I have my son streaming music at the moment as well.
This is what i can get at the moment. Ran a download for a short while to show the speed. I have my son streaming music at the moment as well.
Nice. Right now off giganews' europe server I only get 2000kbps. But that's actually faster than normal. Usually it's half.
Edit: also might be worth blanking out what you are downloading :-p
brundles
07-11-2006, 17:58
Yah but it's about practicality, they can shape freakin HTTP if they want but they're not gonna. It'd be using a knife when you need a scalpel. That's why I'm looking forward to webbased usenet accesses too
They can still shape based on the destination.
I agree with your earlier comment on ISPs traffic shaping rather than actually implementing their network properly but at the end of the day, any attempt to circumvent the intention of the traffic shaping is going to be caught up with and make things worse for other services.
Edit: also might be worth blanking out what you are downloading :-pits ubuntu linux :LOL:
Why of course!
http://www.ubuntu.com/
Haha it actually is. Thought it might be something else disguised.
Haha it actually is. Thought it might be something else disguised.
I dont hide the fact i download other things as well. I have 2 tv eps set for later.
some more info, from another thread confirming the newshosting side of things:
Johnr: I believe that your isp, NTL, has been having serious network issues lately. We have had a number of speed complaints from NTL customers over the last week, and literally none from any other ISP. I have checked with another news service provider (newshosting) and they are also seeing speed complaints from ntl customers. Our engineering staff took a look at several ip blocks in NTL's network, and it appears that NTL is moving high traffic customers to a certain ip block within their network. This has the effect of severely limiting bandwith for those customers. I would recommend contacting NTL about this issue.
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