View Full Version : Is this allowed?
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[Admin Edit(Mick):-Quote removed due to Copyright. Link Provided Below].
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showpost.php?p=4981251&postcount=15
no it is not allowed.
and i think i know which forum this has come from, and who the poster is....
it does detail in the t&cs at www.ntlhome.com/legals that this is not allowed but i'm on dial up atm so not going to bother trying to find it myself :p:
The poster as iggy puts is a fanboy noob.
So could i tell someone about it
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 13:55
No fair, you took that compleatly out of context from a thread entitled "How Much Shall I Sell Broadband To My Neighbor For? (http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=255832)" on DS. I simply answered the origional posters question by describing my setup to him:dozey:
Im a Fanboy n00b eh?:erm: I will pretend I dident read that;)
-Chris
But your not allowed to sell your net connection or send the signal to other houses.
As you state I give out my connection for £10 per person.
Ignition
24-07-2005, 14:02
Said person appears quite interested in this thread too... http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/member.php?u=5547
Not going to reply on here Mr ntlhellworld / SimpsonsFAN ?
Actually rephrase that. You're running hosting as well as all this other garbage on your connection - IMHO that's extracting the urine, various records based on this have been forwarded to the ntl AUP team, have a nice day.
Said person appears quite interested in this thread too... http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/member.php?u=5547
Not going to reply on here Mr ntlhellworld / SimpsonsFAN ?
Actually rephrase that. You're running hosting as well as all this other garbage on your connection - IMHO that's extracting the urine, various records based on this have been forwarded to the ntl AUP team, have a nice day.
You sir are a legend. I will now change my title :D
I'm a Fanboy n00b eh?:erm: I will pretend I dident read that;)
-Chris
Exploiting 80 year old people eh? You sound like a jolly nice chap. Why stop at £10? Why not charge them £15, and cap their bandwidth at 5kbps downstream/ 1kbps upstream? I would love you to get done for this, but sadly I suspect you won't. Still, good luck Ignition :)
A tenner to NTL would get someone their own 1 meg wired connection. I know what I would rather have.
Exploiting 80 year people eh? You sound like a jolly nice chap. Why stop at £10? Why not charge them £15, and cap their bandwidth at 5kbps downstream/ 1kbps upstream? I've love you to get done for this, but sadly I suspect you won't. Still, good luck Ignition :)
A tenner to NTL would get someone their own 1 meg wired connection. I know what I would rather have.
Ha you should read some of his other posts on digitalspy.
I would love for him to go down to. wanna see if the noob fanboy could cope on a BT line
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 14:21
Not going to reply on here Mr ntlhellworld / SimpsonsFAN ?I already have, read upwards. I think most people on the board are capible of clicking on my post and pressing "veiw public profile" dont you?;)You're running hosting as well as all this other garbage on your connectionThere is nothing in the ntl T&Cs that says running webservers on ntl connections is unlegit, Its one of the main reasons I chose ntl as my ISP:)IMHO that's extracting the urine, various records based on this have been forwarded to the ntl AUP teamI have been a ntl customour for years now, I doubt they are going to threaten me now on your advice:rolleyes:have a nice day.Thanks, Will do. Shame about the weather though, I was planning on going out swimming but I wont bother now. So, How was your day?:D
-Chris
Ok I think it is time to turn to the user policy:
For starters- section 20:
In connecting to the Broadband Service, you must only use a PC you own or lease, and you must not attempt to connect your PC to the Broadband Services from outside your home . This includes the use of wireless or non-wireless networking technology to connect your PC or any other PC to your Broadband Services from outside your home (other than your own garden) or the connection of your PC to anyone else's Broadband Services.
Section 16:
The service (including webspace) is for residential use only. It must not be used for business purposes.
oh and depending on how many people you are ripping off, we have a bit more from section 20:
You must not connect more than three (3) PC's to the Broadband Services at any one time.
Ignition
24-07-2005, 14:29
I already have, read upwards. I think most people on the board are capible of clicking on my post and pressing "veiw public profile" dont you?;)There is nothing in the ntl T&Cs that says running webservers on ntl connections is unlegit, Its one of the main reasons I chose ntl as my ISP:)I have been a ntl customour for years now, I doubt they are going to threaten me now on your advice:rolleyes:Thanks. Shame about the weather though, I was planning on going out swimming but I wont bother now. So, How was your day?:D
-Chris
There is a really fairly big section about running businesses on your connection though:
Web hosting starts from as little as £2 a month, Dedicated servers for new customers start at £25 a month with free setup (excluding any offers or current quotes).
Along with sections about how you aren't supposed to have servers generating abnormal amounts of traffic, offering free Webmail and image hosting on your connection could certainly do this.
Also as you're completely aware you've no business sharing your connection with others, let alone reselling it, that's a big nono.
You don't get 3Mbit for less than £40 a month with various stuff in the T+Cs about how it's supposed to be suitable only for residential use, etc, so that you can resell the connectivity for web hosting and to other people in your street as your own paid for WISP.
Taking my ntl hat off for a little while I consider you no better than a common thief, you're ripping off the people in your street and you're ripping off ntl twice over, once with the dubious use of your connection to make money hosting, then again as these people could be paying ntl £9.99 and getting a proper 1Mbit service, not paying for your cable modem.
I've nothing more to say on this as previously said all the info I have has been forwarded to the relevant parties.
simpsonsFAN, I am disappointed. While I am not really worried about you sharing your connection (although, as pointed out, it is againsts t&cs), ripping off pensioners is wrong.
maverick
24-07-2005, 14:36
Lets not forget the bandwidth he is sucking away from other users on his cable.
spike7451
24-07-2005, 14:45
There is a really fairly big section about running businesses on your connection though:
Along with sections about how you aren't supposed to have servers generating abnormal amounts of traffic, offering free Webmail and image hosting on your connection could certainly do this.
Also as you're completely aware you've no business sharing your connection with others, let alone reselling it, that's a big nono.
You don't get 3Mbit for less than £40 a month with various stuff in the T+Cs about how it's supposed to be suitable only for residential use, etc, so that you can resell the connectivity for web hosting and to other people in your street as your own paid for WISP.
Taking my ntl hat off for a little while I consider you no better than a common thief, you're ripping off the people in your street and you're ripping off ntl twice over, once with the dubious use of your connection to make money hosting, then again as these people could be paying ntl £9.99 and getting a proper 1Mbit service, not paying for your cable modem.
I've nothing more to say on this as previously said all the info I have has been forwarded to the relevant parties.
Trading Standards? I'm sure they would be interested in someone trading without a licence?
Spike
If i had a 80yr old living next door to me that wanted internet i would pay for it and my kids could show them how to use it,
to many pensioners are exploited :td: :td: :td:
Above all, if they do not know what they are doing, and become compromised, YOU stand the chance of loosing your connection should the matter get reported to ntl's Internet Security Team.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 15:29
Lets not forget the bandwidth he is sucking away from other users on his cable.You mean the bandwith the pensioners on my street are sucking away from pensioners on the next street?;)
I am disappointed. While I am not really worried about you sharing your connection (although, as pointed out, it is againsts t&cs), ripping off pensioners is wrong.10pounds a month for 3mbit broadband + onsite support sounds good to me. Its not ripping them off, they are achally saving alot of money over there previous dial up and for them to be able to talk to there relatives abroad on webcam is a lifeline for some of them, who are pretty badly off.
You all seam to have got the wrong end of the stick, I was not n00b bragging about how great I am and what I was doing, I was answering a question on DS!. The fact that some chav created this thread on cableforum with some grudge against me and took it out of context dosent make it my fault.
The title of this thread "Is this allowed?" Was answered in the same thread by myself on DS,
the answer is: "No."
You dont really need to be a jenius to work that out. So I dont really see the point in this thread's original question was anyway:confused:. Why ask a question that has already been answered. [Admin Edit(Mick):-Offensive comments Removed].
I will repeat what I said on digitalspy:
"To be honest, most residential ISPs forbid sharing of internet connections with other properties in there T&Cs. But the reality is that they couldent care less."
-Chris
Big snip
-Chris
So I take it you are about to state that you do not allow people to use your NTL BB service for a monthly cost? That you would never think of using a wire/ wireless router to share the connection at a fixed monthly cost to multiple people and that you in no way shape or form advocate theft of service.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 15:51
So I take it you are about to state that you do not allow people to use your NTL BB service for a monthly cost? That you would never think of using a wire/ wireless router to share the connection at a fixed monthly cost to multiple people and that you in no way shape or form advocate theft of service.No. The point is that I dident say it as a "n00b cable fanboy" as the original poster keeps telling me. Someone asked (loosly):
guy on DS: "How much do you rent your broadband out to your neibours for? because I want to know how much to charge them?"
I reply: "10pounds /month"
I then get a whole load of abuse, people trying to report me and someone trying to get my home address from my domain name! I humbly ask "when will it end?".
Seriously, I am not doing any harm to anyone, but this persistant stalker is intent on not just "telling tales" as it were (I still defend that no one gives a toss about it), but also insulting me in broad forum daylight and on msn:disturbd:.
Little help here mods?:angel:
Anyway, I will leave you all to debate weither I am imorrially ripping off pensioners or just breaking ntl t&cs (perhaps you should start a poll).
-Chris
(I would then follow this with a whole load of abuse, but I carnt be bothered with it.)
Anyway, I will leave you all to debate weither I am imorrially ripping off pensioners or just breaking ntl t&cs (perhaps you should start a poll).
-Chris
(I would then follow this with a whole load of abuse, but I carnt be bothered with it.)
So if you aren't going to deny it I take it you are confirming that you are providing people with Internet access through your residential NTL service for a monthly fee?
maverick
24-07-2005, 15:58
You mean the bandwith the pensioners on my street are sucking away from pensioners on the next street?;)
No I mean the bandwidth your personally sucking away from the up and downstream cable that you share with other legitimate users who pay for their own service.No doubt these are people who call NTL every evening because their connection goes down or slows to a halt.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 15:59
So if you aren't going to deny it I take it you are confirming that you are providing people with Internet access through your residential NTL service for a monthly fee?I confirmed it when I said I was doing it on DS! What are you talking about?
Have you even read the thread on DS?
No I mean the bandwidth your personally sucking away from the up and downstream cable that you share with other legitimate users who pay for their own service.No doubt these are people who call NTL every evening because their connection goes down or slows to a halt.If NTL cannot provide enough bandwith to other users of there service then they should never have advertised my ntl connections as "3mbit" in the first place if they cannot provide that to all there paying customours for that. Anyway thats irrelevent, I know I am not "affecting network performance" because I know that no one else on my street has NTL broadband.
-Chris
maverick
24-07-2005, 16:03
I confirmed it when I said I was doing it on DS! What are you talking about?
Have you even read the thread on DS?
-Chris
Because your bragging about it I would expect NTL aup to make sure you are removed from the network.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 16:05
Because your bragging about it I would expect NTL aup to make sure you are removed from the network.You see im not bragging about it! People are just asking me to confirm it and I keep confirming it, but no one seams to achally read my posts before replying.
-Chris
Anyway thats irrelevent, I know I am not "affecting network performance" because I know that no one else on my street has NTL broadband
-Chris
That's funny, you stated and confirmed that you are providing NTL BB to some of your neighbours. If they want a BB connection then they should contact NTL or another provider, at least that way they will get the full service and not just what you decree they should have.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 16:11
That's funny, you stated and confirmed that you are providing NTL BB to some of your neighbours. If they want a BB connection then they should contact NTL or another provider, at least that way they will get the full service and not just what you decree they should have.I dont force them to take my broadband, living in a quite closed community and without much knoweledge of computers they trust me to make the right decisions for them. I know for a fact that some of them cannot afford 3mbit NTL broadband at 37.99 a month. That is 455pounds a year that on a pension they dont have!
-Chris
ian@huth
24-07-2005, 16:19
Anyway thats irrelevent, I know I am not "affecting network performance" because I know that no one else on my street has NTL broadband.
-ChrisSo you have your own personal UBR card then? I very much doubt it.
I dont force them to take my broadband, living in a quite closed community and without much knoweledge of computers they trust me to make the right decisions for them. I know for a fact that some of them cannot afford 3mbit NTL broadband at 37.99 a month. That is 455pounds a year that on a pension they dont have!
-Chris
I give out my 3MB ntl broadband connection to people in my street at 10pounds a month each, but I put them all on the lowest QoS bandwith manedgement setting my router has, so that way I can still use winmx and surf digitalspy while my neighbours enjoy there supposed "broadband" internet https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2006/07/3.gif
3 meg
But you use qos to lower it so its not 3 meg. ?
ian@huth
24-07-2005, 16:23
I dont force them to take my broadband, living in a quite closed community and without much knoweledge of computers they trust me to make the right decisions for them. I know for a fact that some of them cannot afford 3mbit NTL broadband at 37.99 a month. That is 455pounds a year that on a pension they dont have!
-ChrisThe right decision would have been for you to tell them that they could have their own 1Mb connection for £9.99 per month with NTL which would include their own webspace and email addresses. I bet you don't even allow them to use even 1Mb of your service.
I dont force them to take my broadband, living in a quite closed community and without much knoweledge of computers they trust me to make the right decisions for them. I know for a fact that some of them cannot afford 3mbit NTL broadband at 37.99 a month. That is 455pounds a year that on a pension they dont have!
-Chris
Maybe they should try asking NTL about it's 1Mb then instead of trusting someone who is breeching the Ts and Cs of his service contract with NTL and who could get everyone involved into trouble with NTL for theft of service.
There is no excuse for exploiting pensionners for personal gain in my opinion and you are not providing them with a true 3Mb service if you are restricting them through the QOS settings on your router.
i wonder if any of them are reading this :D
Pimping of pensioners, now that is pretty low :(
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 16:42
The QOS is only to prevent things like downloads destroying the connection for things like VoIP and web browsing, and although I do put them on the low piority on the router, I also have a cproxy web cache running and a windows server 2003 DNS nameserver running seperatly, as a resault total web browsing traffic never even touches on 5GB /month and non http traffic never goes over 20GB /month. So I always stay well within the 30GB monthly useage allowance set by NTL.
I did advise on other ISPs to start with but at the time there wernt any 9.99 for 1mb deals in place, so I just put a small amount of my connection aside. They are more than happy with there current setup and the way that when they break stuff (and they do break stuff) they know I am only next door to come help.
While this is all Very touching stuff im sure... I know im not the only person to do this, the thread on DS had at least 5 or 6 people who had just stated that they share there connection with there neibour(s) and shared the bills, it was me who bore the blunt of the assult because someone has a problem with me.
Since when is it cableforums job to judge how I use my connection or to interfear in matters that I would have never mentioned myself on here?
-Chris
I know for a fact that some of them cannot afford 3mbit NTL broadband at 37.99 a month. That is 455pounds a year that on a pension they dont have!
-Chris
They might not be able to afford 38 quid a month, but then can afford 10 quid a month, I presume, as that is what you are milking them for. I don't suppose you'll have a chat with them and tell them what they can get for 10 quid would you?
And it is touching to know that despite paying for a 1/3rd of your service, you ensuring they don't even get that.
Since when is it cableforums job to judge how I use my connection or to interfear in matters that I would have never mentioned myself on here?
-Chris
This forum has always had a blunt response to people advocating theft of service to the best of my knowledge.
Since when is it cableforums job to judge how I use my connection or to interfere in matters that I would have never mentioned myself on here?
-Chris
But it would be wrong for a NTL person not to take notice of what could and i say could be seen as Fraud Depending on how you look at this.
I can tell you now that my policy is and always has been to report Fraud when i find it. I have to feed my family and i will not be able to do that if NTL went bust because of people ripping NTL off.
Waits for how can i sharing my connection make NTL go bust. Look at the big picture.
I just hope you get d/c and then the old people your ripping off, can find out what a lying two bit theiveng **** you are.
They are getting less perfromance then a 100k connection and your rolling it in.
NTL should remove you and fine you in my book.!
I can not believe he can do this to old people, he goes on about they can't afford stuff on a pension then he goes and rips them off!
Its a shame, that these pensioners are being riped off, giving it to them free is the only way you could advocate what your doing. And your not sharing the bills with a neighbour, which again whilst against t&c's I dont see anything wrong with it.
You are making money from a vulnerable part of society which is disgusting.
Since when is it cableforums job to judge how I use my connection or to interfear in matters that I would have never mentioned myself on here?
-Chris
I beg your pardon? When you say 'cableforums job' that infers the team. Your right, it is not our job to interfere but when you publicly broadcast what you do with your connection, no matter on which website, you cannot expect not to be open to criticism. :dozey:
Also, I would appreciate it if you would not resort to name calling.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 17:04
This forum has always had a blunt response to people advocating theft of service to the best of my knowledge.Yes it has, cableforum is one of the few open forums that can achally sufficantly moderate there boards, But I assure you I am not stealing any service from ntl, only selling what they provide me with.
If I buy a apple in a shop with a sticker on it that says "do not resell", then I cut it up and sell the bits of the apple... Then tell me, Did I steal the apple?
I resent any comment saying I am comitting fraud or theft as it is simply not true, If I did have to personally defend myself against NTL (and I dont btw), I would ague that If they are not taking reasonable mesures to actively enforce there terms and conditions, then they are as good as worthless (not that I at all defend those who use hacked modems to steal service, etc, that is compleatly different).
Also, I would appreciate it if you would not resort to name calling.I dont belive I did?:erm: If I did I apologize, must have been a heat of the moment thing..
-Chris
You seem to of totally forgotten the moral side of this to the pensioners aswell. Forget the 'support' you give them, as you obviously couldn't give a toss and see it as the burden of the 'deal'.
Instead you decide to cash in on their lack of knowledge, when yourself who knows enough that they could get a better deal, better service etc. if you actually referred them to ntl and the 9.99 deal.
[(not that I at all defend those who use hacked modems to steal service, etc, that is compleatly different).
Yeah, really different! :rolleyes:
Alan Waddington
24-07-2005, 17:23
I suspect that NTL will investigate this & take appropriate action to discourage others from following your example. If you're lucky it'll just be disconnection. Maybe they'll prosecute. Sounds like there's lots of witnesses down your street :)
iain_herts
24-07-2005, 17:29
ok simpsonsFAN u say ur not doing fraud so answer this for me then at £10 P/M how many of ur nabours in ur street are u SELLING ur BB connection to.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 17:30
Instead you decide to cash in on their lack of knowledge, when yourself who knows enough that they could get a better deal, better service etc. if you actually referred them to ntl and the 9.99 deal.They know enough to know that 3mbit is faster than 1mbit, and at the same price there is no decision here. On your logic, NTL are cashing in on there customours lack of knowledge, they personally know themselfs that there are better deals and better services to be had with other ISPs, but are still charging us! Its a outrage, Should they be expected to give there service away for free because of that? or becuase some people are pensioners? - I think not.
You seem to of totally forgotten the moral side of this to the pensioners aswell. Forget the 'support' you give them, as you obviously couldn't give a toss and see it as the burden of the 'deal'.That isnt true at all, it dosent matter if they are pensioners or not, by me buying them a wireless>ethernet bridge I expect them to pay 10pounds a month for use of my connection.
Should I buy every person in my street wireless cards (pensioners or not) and let them use my broadband connection? Dont be stupid, I carnt afford to pay 40pounds to every stranger in every house in my street for the equipment, so I wouldent even have a 3mbit ntl connection if that were the case.
I am not being "creul" or "mean" even unfair, If someone offerd me 3mb broadband for 10pounds a month I would jump at it and tell other people to get it aswell, but they dont, So i havent.
-Chris
If everyone sends an e-mail to the NTL AUP team, might make them take a bit more notice...
If everyone sends an e-mail to the NTL AUP team, might make them take a bit more notice...
:tu:
Done :) " link to this page sent to AUP " let them decided what to do about it
You must not connect more than three (3) PC's to the Broadband Services at any one time.
how do they know?
You must not connect more than three (3) PC's to the Broadband Services at any one time.
how do they know?
At&T showed a method that could be used for people on the outside of the router (the network end) to deduce how many computers are attached.. Will try a find a link to the paper they published, but IIRC it all hinged on how many types of traffic are being carried.
They know enough to know that 3mbit is faster than 1mbit, and at the same price there is no decision here. On your logic, NTL are cashing in on there customours lack of knowledge, they personally know themselfs that there are better deals and better services to be had with other ISPs, but are still charging us! Its a outrage, Should they be expected to give there service away for free because of that? or becuase some people are pensioners? - I think not.
That isnt true at all, it dosent matter if they are pensioners or not, by me buying them a wireless>ethernet bridge I expect them to pay 10pounds a month for use of my connection.
Should I buy every person in my street wireless cards (pensioners or not) and let them use my broadband connection? Dont be stupid, I carnt afford to pay 40pounds to every stranger in every house in my street for the equipment, so I wouldent even have a 3mbit ntl connection if that were the case.
I am not being "creul" or "mean" even unfair, If someone offerd me 3mb broadband for 10pounds a month I would jump at it and tell other people to get it aswell, but they dont, So i havent.
-Chris
I hope ntl throw the book at you TBH.
Whatever you say, you are contravening the Ts & Cs that you signed up to.
In fact, I hope they take legal action against you.
I know that may sound harsh, but people like you that should be punished for what you do IMO.
It's morally & legally wrong, & I think you deserve every bit of punishment that comes your way.
An interesting point made on DS
Plus he is selling hosting on his connection
Pinging www.burnouthosting.co.uk [82.15.**.**]
Tracing route to cpc4-nmkt1-6-0-cust71.cmbg.cable.ntl.com [82.15.***.**]
Are you hosting from your NTL IP account too or is that just where you are running your website from? I can't seem to find any info on your website as to who you host with and I wouldn't want to wrongly accuse you of running a hosting service from a server that is sitting in your house connected to your residential service.
I did advise on other ISPs to start with but at the time there wernt any 9.99 for 1mb deals in place, so I just put a small amount of my connection aside. They are more than happy with there current setup and the way that when they break stuff (and they do break stuff) they know I am only next door to come help.
The thing is, if you are using your connection yourself, then you are NOT offering 3 meg. I don't know how many neighbours you are offering a service to, but I suspect it's more than 3. So each would be getting less than 1 meg (assuming each uses an equal amount of bandwidth which probably isn't the case). So, if you have (say) 10 neighbours, each will get an average of 300K.
In my case, it's not that you are offering your connection to neighbours that disappoints me (as you say, that's not my business), but more that you are profiteering on pensioners, and offering them a deal that could be considerably worse than that offered by many ISPs.
simpsonsFAN
24-07-2005, 19:02
Are you hosting from your NTL IP account too or is that just where you are running your website from?I run the webhosting of a 1and1 dedicated server, and the dedicated servers that I sell are run by a freind on his business ADSL connection. On my home servers I run free image hosting, free webmail, my burnouthosting domain and a home domain off my ntl connections.
-Chris
TheInsider
24-07-2005, 19:24
On my home servers I run free image hosting, free webmail, my burnouthosting domain and a home domain off my ntl connections.
-Chris
Not for long on Ntl me thinks :)
That isnt true at all, it dosent matter if they are pensioners or not, by me buying them a wireless>ethernet bridge I expect them to pay 10pounds a month for use of my connection.
Should I buy every person in my street wireless cards (pensioners or not) and let them use my broadband connection? Dont be stupid, I carnt afford to pay 40pounds to every stranger in every house in my street for the equipment, so I wouldent even have a 3mbit ntl connection if that were the case.
.
-Chris
No but you could tell them at £10 they could have there own connection.
ian@huth
24-07-2005, 22:10
At&T showed a method that could be used for people on the outside of the router (the network end) to deduce how many computers are attached.. Will try a find a link to the paper they published, but IIRC it all hinged on how many types of traffic are being carried.When a PC makes a request for information the request has to tell the target where to send the response. Packet inspection can determine the address of the originating request. Monitoring data to and from a specific account can therefore determine how many different devices are connected to that account during the period of monitoring.
Ignition
24-07-2005, 22:33
When a PC makes a request for information the request has to tell the target where to send the response. Packet inspection can determine the address of the originating request. Monitoring data to and from a specific account can therefore determine how many different devices are connected to that account during the period of monitoring.
Nope, don't mean to seem rude Ian but saying that demonstrates you've no idea how NAT works.
The device doing the NAT rewrites the headers containing source address, replacing them with its' own address, to do otherwise would be impossible (IE how is a device on the other side of the internet supposed to know how to get to your private network without a public IP address?) and remembers what to send where by holding a state table of what packets are sourced from where and their destination.
Also to check on source address doesn't require packet inspection just the normal headers inspection that is done by all layer 3 routing devices.
On a properly firewalled & NAT'd installation, it is, to all intents and purposes, impossible to detect how many devices are behind it.
I run the webhosting of a 1and1 dedicated server, and the dedicated servers that I sell are run by a freind on his business ADSL connection. On my home servers I run free image hosting, free webmail, my burnouthosting domain and a home domain off my ntl connections.
-Chris
Between all that, and WinMX, your clients' network connections must be flying.
I run the webhosting of a 1and1 dedicated server, and the dedicated servers that I sell are run by a freind on his business ADSL connection. On my home servers I run free image hosting, free webmail, my burnouthosting domain and a home domain off my ntl connections.
-Chris
Between all that, and WinMX, your clients' network connections must be flying.
Especially as a maxed-out upload can kill the download speed..
handyman
24-07-2005, 23:14
They know enough to know that 3mbit is faster than 1mbit,
Then they are wrong then as 3mbit is exactly the same speed as 1mbit which is the same speed as 300k. Its all the same connection with the same equipment.
I think you are trying to refer to bandwidth not speed, 2 different things.
Think of the network of pipes that brings water to your home and carries sewage away from it. Those pipes have different diameters -- the city's main water pipe may be 2 meters in diameter, whereas the kitchen faucet may be 2 centimeters. The width of the pipe measures the water-carrying capacity of the pipe. In this analogy the water is like information and the width of the pipe is like bandwidth. In fact, many networking experts will talk in terms of "putting in bigger pipes" meaning more bandwidth; that is, more information-carrying capacity
I have a fairly large network here running on a adsl 2mb connection. We have 3 laptops and 1 computer running from it. If i'm downloading on the computer it impacts the quality of service that the other users have. This is exponentially worse when I am uploading (as in your image and web hosting). I dont think you'll be giving out a service that at all justifies £10 per month. (and btw I do not condone what you are doing I hope the fine people at AUP discon you)
The reason you can have a 3mb connection for next to nothing when business's are paying through the roof for 2mbs leased lines and 128k ISDN is that as a residential user you are expected to be using the service less. Thats why they have a restriction in the amount of users you can connect to the service. You get the advantage of greater bandwidth allowing you to do what you do faster (remember it all travels the same speed) because you can get more data through the pipe at any one time.
In my case, it's not that you are offering your connection to neighbours that disappoints me (as you say, that's not my business), but more that you are profiteering on pensioners, and offering them a deal that could be considerably worse than that offered by many ISPs.
Thats my point exactly, I couldnt care less if ten of your neighbours and you joined together to share one broadband connection, to me thats fine, wouldn't worry me a bit, its up to you, but making profit from pensioners who unwitingly are doing something wrong is just unfair, unjust and its just as bad as aconfidence trickster.
I work in the IT business self employed like yourself, I could not dream of doing what you are, if I had an elderly next door neigbour who wanted to get online to talk to theire child in australia, I would have no quarms in spending £6 on a wirless network card and letting them share my connection, and I dont think NTL would care either, but profiting from a connection from pensioners is disgusting, and out of interest what did you charge them as a set up charge, as you seem to think it costs £40 for a network card (wirless or not).
Thats my point exactly, I couldnt care less if ten of your neighbours and you joined together to share one broadband connection, to me thats fine, wouldn't worry me a bit, its up to you, but making profit from pensioners who unwitingly are doing something wrong is just unfair, unjust and its just as bad as aconfidence trickster.
I work in the IT business self employed like yourself, I could not dream of doing what you are, if I had an elderly next door neigbour who wanted to get online to talk to theire child in australia, I would have no quarms in spending £6 on a wirless network card and letting them share my connection, and I dont think NTL would care either, but profiting from a connection from pensioners is disgusting, and out of interest what did you charge them as a set up charge, as you seem to think it costs £40 for a network card (wirless or not).
I hope that was aimed at Simpsonsfan..
Yes no of course it was aimed at simpsonfan sorry for any confision was just agreeing with you :) honest :D
Yes no of course it was aimed at simpsonfan sorry for any confision was just agreeing with you :) honest :D
No problem.. I figured it was aimed at him... I don't share my connection with anyone outside my house (in fact I have WPA enabled and the SSID broadcast turned off, so it would be difficult for anyone who doesn't know me to get onto my network).
Im lazy and only use MAC Address filtering, If anyone whants the details to my bank accoun there welcome to them, there aint much they can get from that...
End of the day he is sharing and charging for his connection
That alone warrants a disconnection. I wonder what his parents will say when they go to watch sky one to find no picture because there son is sharing his connection to OAP's
Im lazy and only use MAC Address filtering, If anyone whants the details to my bank accoun there welcome to them, there aint much they can get from that...
Actually, my main concern was that we have a rather large car park at the end of our garden, and when I first got a wireless network, quite a few Mac addresses popped up in the router logs that I didn't recognise. I suspect someone parked up in the car park and started using my network.
I must admit stuart, I am guilty of doing that, if im on the road all day, rather than using my mobile phone i'll just hook up to a wirless network and download my email from there.. not legal, but im only there for a few seconds.. and it saves my mobile phone bill..
Pø†øƒGøLÃÂ
25-07-2005, 08:40
I can't access that link on the other forum board - even tho I'm a reg'd member. Is it restricted access?
I can't access that link on the other forum board - even tho I'm a reg'd member. Is it restricted access?
They probably deleted it as it refers to illegal activity.
I can't access that link on the other forum board - even tho I'm a reg'd member. Is it restricted access?
They probably deleted it as it refers to illegal activity.
Now wouldn't that be strange since someone knows that the activities have been reported to NTL AUP at least twice. Unfortunately all the info is still on this thread too, maybe time to lock it so that nothing can be altered??
Only the mods and admins can change stuff :)
Pø†øƒGøLÃÂ
25-07-2005, 09:24
Only the mods and admins can change stuff :)
Hmm... and there would be no reason for them to remove it ;)
Considering NTL's AUP and Abuse departments have been made aware of what's going on, with links to this thread, then I can see no valid reason to remove it ....
Pø†øƒGøLÃÂ
25-07-2005, 09:31
erm... what's AUP?:dozey:
erm... what's AUP?:dozey:
http://www.ntlworld.com/helpsupport/aup/index.php
Pø†øƒGøLÃÂ
25-07-2005, 09:48
http://www.ntlworld.com/helpsupport/aup/index.php
Thanks... Monday morning; brain still sleeping; couldn't figure out the acronym :o:
An interesting point made on DS
Plus he is selling hosting on his connection
Pinging www.burnouthosting.co.uk (http://www.burnouthosting.co.uk/) [82.15.**.**]
Tracing route to cpc4-nmkt1-6-0-cust71.cmbg.cable.ntl.com [82.15.***.**]
Are you hosting from your NTL IP account too or is that just where you are running your website from? I can't seem to find any info on your website as to who you host with and I wouldn't want to wrongly accuse you of running a hosting service from a server that is sitting in your house connected to your residential service.
Am I right in thinking that the traceroute has identified cpc4-nmkt1-6-0-cust71.cmbg.cable.ntl.com as the individual machine serving up webpages for burnouthosting.co.uk, and that this information is enough to lead NTL's AUP team to Chris the Simpsons Fan's front door?
Yes
It was me that made that post on DS
I also have a screenshot of the idiots posts on the othe forum
http://www.batista.co.uk/images/nthellworld.JPG
Yes
It was me that made that post on DS
I also have a screenshot of the idiots posts on the othe forum
http://www.batista.co.uk/images/nthellworld.JPG
In which case ... pwn3d! :D
Maybe since he is so sure he is doing nothing wrong and that NTL will do nothing about his re-selling of their service, simpsonsFAN will post back with his full name, address and phone number along with a complete account of what he is doing to defraud both NTL and his "customers"? Then we can all bask in his greatness ;)
"I give out my 3MB NTL Broadband connection to people at 10 pounds a month each, but I put them all on the lowest QoS bandwidth management setting my router has, so that way I can still use WinMX and surf digitalspy while my neighbours enjoy their supposed "broadband" internet. (All spelling corrections and emphasis mine)
Chris, you are one sick puppy. Regardless of whether or not you were merely responding to someone else's question, this is clearly bragging. You are laughing in the faces of all the pensioners you are conning by selling them your 'broadband' service. :rolleyes: :mad:
I really hope that NTL get in touch with all the people he is ripping off as well!
Maybe since he is so sure he is doing nothing wrong and that NTL will do nothing about his re-selling of their service, simpsonsFAN will post back with his full name, address and phone number along with a complete account of what he is doing to defraud both NTL and his "customers"? Then we can all bask in his greatness ;)
But of course he knows he has done wrong. He said on the other forum that he changed his whois info for his site to a fake name.
The guy will not post his details and i hope NTL pulls the plug. Then he needs to be banned from here
He is a fanboy noob loser
But of course he knows he has done wrong. He said on the other forum that he changed his whois info for his site to a fake name.
The guy will not post his details and i hope NTL pulls the plug. Then he needs to be banned from here
He is a fanboy noob loser
If anyone needs to be banned it's you for making comments like that.
No more please.
If anyone needs to be banned it's you for making comments like that.
No more please.
SIR YES SIR
Pø†øƒGøLÃÂ
25-07-2005, 12:21
If anyone needs to be banned it's you for making comments like that.
No more please.
Hmm... think I'm with Angelus on this one. He's breaking his TOS... he deserves to be discon.
Hmm... think I'm with Angelus on this one. He's breaking his TOS... he deserves to be discon.
That decision's down to NTL, and we're never going to find out what actions they take so there's really no point us worrying our little heads.
As for banning him from here, well that's down to the team but I can't see what forum rules he's broken? :erm:
Hmm... think I'm with Angelus on this one. He's breaking his TOS... he deserves to be discon.
Neil was referring to personal insults. Can we stick to the topic please and not debate the modding. :)
If anyone needs to be banned it's you for making comments like that.
No more please.
Hmm... think I'm with Angelus on this one. He's breaking his TOS... he deserves to be discon.
I think a major part of why Neil told Angelus off is the fact that Angelus has made more than one remark that can be seen as a personal attack on simpsonsFAN. SimpsonsFAN himself had a post edited to remove a personal attack on Angelus so both parties have now been reminded of the forum rule about not attacking other members of the forum. Also publicly calling for another member to be banned is not looked upon kindly as it is down to the team to decide that sort of thing.
Edit
Beaten by ChrisT lol
Neil was referring to personal insults.
I was, yes. :)
Can we stick to the topic please and not debate the modding. :)
^^ What he said.
I was, yes. :)
^^ What he said.
I will always debate Neil :P :D:D
ian@huth
25-07-2005, 13:17
When a PC makes a request for information the request has to tell the target where to send the response. Packet inspection can determine the address of the originating request. Monitoring data to and from a specific account can therefore determine how many different devices are connected to that account during the period of monitoring.
Nope, don't mean to seem rude Ian but saying that demonstrates you've no idea how NAT works.
The device doing the NAT rewrites the headers containing source address, replacing them with its' own address, to do otherwise would be impossible (IE how is a device on the other side of the internet supposed to know how to get to your private network without a public IP address?) and remembers what to send where by holding a state table of what packets are sourced from where and their destination.
Also to check on source address doesn't require packet inspection just the normal headers inspection that is done by all layer 3 routing devices.I tried to give a very simplistic explanation and in it used the word packet to include all data sent with the packet. You must admit that the target has to know how to get to the ultimate destination address in order to reply to it. The fact that the ultimate destination address within the stub domain is hidden by the address translation table in the router makes it difficult, but not impossible, to discover. Just how this is done has security implications that should not be discussed.
Pø†øƒGøLÃÂ
25-07-2005, 13:35
I think a major part of why Neil told Angelus off is the fact that Angelus has made more than one remark that can be seen as a personal attack on simpsonsFAN. SimpsonsFAN himself had a post edited to remove a personal attack on Angelus so both parties have now been reminded of the forum rule about not attacking other members of the forum. Also publicly calling for another member to be banned is not looked upon kindly as it is down to the team to decide that sort of thing.
Edit
Beaten by ChrisT lol
Still having Monday morning brain-in-gear problems... even tho it's afternoon.
I misinterpreted the ban thing... I was reading it that he should be banned by his ISP, not being banned from the forum. Mebbe I should withdraw my comment and say nothing until I found second gear :confused:
spike7451
25-07-2005, 17:51
The are people on here,myself included ,who work for NTL in whatever capacity (i'm a feild tech) who are aware of this post,i also put it up on NTL Hell where a few employees have been very interested in the fraudulent abuse by simpsonfan.
All i can say is,it's been looked into!
Spike
Yes
It was me that made that post on DS
I also have a screenshot of the idiots posts on the othe forum
http://www.batista.co.uk/images/nthellworld.JPG
/didn't think anyone used IE anymore... it's so easy to get your pc pwnd if you do...
The are people on here,myself included ,who work for NTL in whatever capacity (i'm a feild tech) who are aware of this post,i also put it up on NTL Hell where a few employees have been very interested in the fraudulent abuse by simpsonfan.
All i can say is,it's been looked into!
Spike
Shame that :angel: I know it got reported to AUP at least twice here. Maybe Mr FAN will learn a lesson from this.
The are people on here,myself included ,who work for NTL in whatever capacity (i'm a feild tech) who are aware of this post,i also put it up on NTL Hell where a few employees have been very interested in the fraudulent abuse by simpsonfan.
All i can say is,it's been looked into!
Spike
Be sure to keep us updated if you can :)
/didn't think anyone used IE anymore... it's so easy to get your pc pwnd if you do...
Funny been using it for 6 years and still not got my pc pwned
firefox fanboy
/didn't think anyone used IE anymore... it's so easy to get your pc pwnd if you do...
Funny been using it for 6 years and still not got my pc pwned
firefox fanboy
Well all the time I used IE neither did I. It IS a fact that at present, it is easier to use IE to pwn a PC than FF though.
And I take the FF fanboy remark as a compliment. FF and proud!
*cough* off topic *cough*
*cough* off topic *cough*
Agreed
If you wanna tell me how much my pc can be pwned because of IE then pm me
simpsonsFAN
25-07-2005, 21:25
If you wanna tell me how much my pc can be pwned because of IE then pm meFor a start IEs dodgy activex implementation..
But, ah yes, this thread is for everyone to judge how bad I am, sorry, carry on;)..
-Chris
You seem proud of your actions
You seem proud of your actions
Not for long. :)
For a start IEs dodgy activex implementation..
But, ah yes, this thread is for everyone to judge how bad I am, sorry, carry on;)..
-Chris
So wish I could be across road seeing your face when NTL come to your door with a few questions.
I bet there won't be a grin then. :D
dilli-theclaw
25-07-2005, 21:47
But, ah yes, this thread is for everyone to judge how bad I am, sorry, carry on;)..
-Chris
There are SO many levels on which what you are doing IS bad.
I pity you that you can't see it - or don't care.
With luck NTL will catch up with you and sort you out.
So wish I could be across road seeing your face when NTL come to your door with a few questions.
I bet there won't be a grin then. :D
Sadly you will not get that satisfaction, NTL will just cut off his connection, then send a letter of pending prosecution, i would love to be in court on the day tho. :D
Im sure it will make the local rag if he does go to court, i can see the headline now. Neighbour Rips of Pensioners.
Monster Jedi
25-07-2005, 22:15
Sadly you will not get that satisfaction, NTL will just cut off his connection, then send a letter of pending prosecution, i would love to be in court on the day tho. :D
I would presume that the money he robs off the pensioners is declared to the IRS;)
Sadly you will not get that satisfaction, NTL will just cut off his connection, then send a letter of pending prosecution, i would love to be in court on the day tho. :D
If this is true could this thread please be stickified for history :D
If this is true could this thread please be stickified for history :D
I deserve rep for this :D
__________________
Im sure it will make the local rag if he does go to court, i can see the headline now. Neighbour Rips of Pensioners.
Someone should email the sun with the url to this thread
Nah the daily sport :naughty:
Ahem.
:)
I deserve rep for this :D
You got it :dozey:
Well the sun will print anything :D
__________________
<edit Rob C - deleted please dont discuss rep comments here>
Please don't discuss reputation comments in the topic, Thanks. :)
spike7451
25-07-2005, 22:39
To put it another way,not only is simpsonfan stealing of the OAP's he is extorting,he is also stealing not just from NTL,but also the employees,like me,who rely on 'honest' customers to pay our wages.Not to mention the people who want cable in their area but because of thieves like him (and yes,thats all YOU are!!!) & others, NTL/Telewest.ect cant install cable services in these areas because of the lost revenue these theiving ******* create!
Spike
Oh the shame......
....I misspelt necessary! :rolleyes:
Sorry Paul :angel:
Back on topic, it'd be nice to see what Ntl do about this mess :erm:
To put it another way,not only is simpsonfan stealing of the OAP's he is extorting,he is also stealing not just from NTL,but also the employees,like me,who rely on 'honest' customers to pay our wages.Not to mention the people who want cable in their area but because of thieves like him (and yes,thats all YOU are!!!) & others, NTL/Telewest.ect cant install cable services in these areas because of the lost revenue these theiving ******* create!
Spike
:clap: :clap:
Oh the shame......
....I misspelt necessary! :rolleyes:
Sorry Paul :angel:
Back on topic, it'd be nice to see what Ntl do about this mess :erm:
Lets hope they do the right thing
Not for long. :)
Indeed :tu:
But will he prosecuted for defrauding his 'customers'?Or will he just get prosecuted for misusing his BB connection under the T&C's?Just what would he be found guilty of?
But will he prosecuted for defrauding his 'customers'?Or will he just get prosecuted for misusing his BB connection under the T&C's?Just what would he be found guilty of?
I am sure its theft
He is selling a product that does not belong to him
MovedGoalPosts
25-07-2005, 22:53
This thread is to address the issues as to whether or not there is acceptable or unnacceptable use of connections by reselling, and the associated consequences.
It is inevitable that there will be dissatisfaction expressed by many. However in posting, remember the forum's terms and conditions. Please remain on topic and avoid personal abuse. Rep points and reasons for their receipt must never be solicited or discussed in the forum. If rep points or other comments are considered to be issued in error, such matters shall be referred to the Team.
As this thread has become unnecessarily heated, and to restore order, off topic postings will be deleted.
Ignition
25-07-2005, 23:02
As this thread has become unnecessarily heated, and to restore order, off topic postings will be deleted.
It's an inevitably emotive subject, although the thread now reminds me more of a witch hunt and is several pages of the same thing, pretty much telling the K-A P fan what a complete ***** he is.
Point of this is besides being a venting stream is?
Think we've already established it's wrong on so many levels, may well be worth just closing this thing :(
MovedGoalPosts
25-07-2005, 23:10
Think we've already established it's wrong on so many levels, may well be worth just closing this thing :(
Yes there is widespread concern being expressed, and there have been few recent on topic posts that continue to develop the thread. However there is a desire for the few who cannot post in a civil manner to not ruin things for the many, hence we will try to keep threads open as long as practical.
I feel we should leave this open as it will keep people aware that such activites are illegal and who knows, some other couple being conned like has been conning may find this thread, and it could help them out.
End of the day CF was setup to help people.
I am now recieving abuse emails that are being sent from a anonymous email. I think its because of this thread and i have a few ideas who it is
I am now recieving abuse emails that are being sent from a anonymous email. I think its because of this thread and i have a few ideas who it is
You could try posting the message header so we can try and track them down.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: from fastdnsservers.com ([216.51.232.128]) by pamc1-f3.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:14:40 -0700
Received: from WEBSERVER128 ([127.0.0.1]:1340)by fastdnsservers.com with [XMail 1.21 ESMTP Server]id <S2535E> for <xxxxxxxx@hotmail.co.uk> from <anonym.04ee458c-4273-4be8-8a11-508ee0677319@mytrashmail.com>;Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:14:40 -0500
X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jELnrWZnlbtgDNQvWnmRekD66P6ZDQ9Z5A=
thread-index: AcWRZkC8jaxRYOB8RsuSNfTrzIYVew==
Thread-Topic: you
X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000
Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message
Priority: normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1830
Return-Path: anonym.04ee458c-4273-4be8-8a11-508ee0677319@mytrashmail.com
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2005 22:14:40.0660 (UTC) FILETIME=[409C3D40:01C59166]
I don't really think this is the place to be discussing e-mails you may be receiving - I suggest you report them to hotmail. BTW - you left your e-mail address in the above headers, I have removed it for you. :)
spike7451
25-07-2005, 23:44
URGENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guys!! check this out!!!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/25/uk_war_driver_fined/
spike
With thanks to the poster on www.ntlhell.co.uk (http://www.ntlhell.co.uk) who's name i've forgotten!!!!!11
But he only just got done? is this another case or same guy?
But he only just got done? is this another case or same guy?
Another case
I doubt NTL would let him back on after whats happened
I don't know more likely I would guess a period time ban.
URGENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guys!! check this out!!!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/25/uk_war_driver_fined/
spike
With thanks to the poster on www.ntlhell.co.uk (http://www.ntlhell.co.uk) who's name i've forgotten!!!!!11
Already being discussed at http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=32423&highlight=driving, and it is another case. Our legal system does not work that fast.
spike7451
25-07-2005, 23:53
Sorry,Did'nt know but i thought it might be relevent.
PS,whats this opera browser like?I use Avant.
Spike
Sorry,Did'nt know but i thought it might be relevent.
PS,whats this opera browser like?I use Avant.
Spike
:notopic:
Well I for one hope NTL cut your connection simpsonsFAN, I also hope that they rip you to shreds in court :( Taking advantage of elderly people is inexcusable and shows just what sort of person you really are.
Angelus, if you are getting abusive mail I would report it to Hotmail as they may be able to track the IP address that it is originating from, if the IP address matches the one you think it is then that is another report to AUP.
timewarrior2001
26-07-2005, 09:55
Its a strange one this.
Just read the whole thread.
He's not ripping off the pensioners as such.
He has told them for £10 a month they can share his connection and he will support them as much as he can.
Now yes T&C's say you must not share out of your house. What if you have a home office in an out building and a PC in the main house, thats acceptable but your still going to breach T&C's
He says neighbours, now if its wireless he's only gonna be realistically sharing with neighbours either side (and he did mention that he was only next door)
So what he has done is slightly enlarged his network, provided a hassle free connection for the pensioners and re-coups some of this initial outlay. Thats 3 PC's on one connection and within T&C's with the exception that its involving 2 other properties. Now to me thats NTL saying you cant do it because it screws them out of screwing others out of money. Not because of any affect it may have on the network.
I dont find too much wrong with that, I'm not certain that I find it acceptable but I'm not quite as against it as others, I know of lots of people that share with neighbours via wireless routers in lofts.
I dont think NTL will do too much, not in regards to this specific part, about his web hosting etc if it is indeed on his residential ntl connection maybe.
I doubt he will get more than a written warning.
And before I get flamed, I am not defending the guy just trying to look at it in a realistic way.
His charging £10 a month for internet access and unlimmited support is good I think, I know of shops that charge a £25 call out and then labour and parts on top. Talk about ripping of customers, well NTL is not going to offer them better by taking £10 a month and offering no onsite support is it?
Each to their own I guess.
Its a strange one this.
Just read the whole thread.
He's not ripping off the pensioners as such.
Charging someone for something they could get for themselves for a few £'s more? (not only that, but they would get dedicated ISP support) I call that a rip off.
He has told them for £10 a month they can share his connection and he will support them as much as he can.
Immoral & Illegal.
Now yes T&C's say you must not share out of your house. What if you have a home office in an out building and a PC in the main house, thats acceptable but your still going to breach T&C's
But that's not the case here, & so it's not relevant.
He says neighbours, now if its wireless he's only gonna be realistically sharing with neighbours either side (and he did mention that he was only next door)
So what he has done is slightly enlarged his network, provided a hassle free connection for the pensioners and re-coups some of this initial outlay.
What happens when the OAP needs help & he's not around? & I weould guess he's more than recouping his outlay too.
Thats 3 PC's on one connection and within T&C's with the exception that its involving 2 other properties. Now to me thats NTL saying you cant do it because it screws them out of screwing others out of money. Not because of any affect it may have on the network.
One connection per household-simple-perhaps BT would be happy if one person had the free calls 24/7 option, & let all the neighbours (who didn't have BT lines at all) use it?
I dont find too much wrong with that, I'm not certain that I find it acceptable but I'm not quite as against it as others, I know of lots of people that share with neighbours via wireless routers in lofts.
That doesn't make it right though.
I dont think NTL will do too much, not in regards to this specific part, about his web hosting etc if it is indeed on his residential ntl connection maybe.
I think you're wrong. ;)
I doubt he will get more than a written warning.
See above.
And before I get flamed, I am not defending the guy just trying to look at it in a realistic way.
Then be reasistic, & realise that he is trying to cover his BB costs at the expense of OAPs who know no better. :td:
His charging £10 a month for internet access and unlimmited support is good I think, I know of shops that charge a £25 call out and then labour and parts on top.
And you think that's acceptable do you? :erm:
Talk about ripping of customers, well NTL is not going to offer them better by taking £10 a month and offering no onsite support is it?
Each to their own I guess.
But they could get a basic 256k BB service from an ADSL provider for literally a few £'s more, & get proper support-not when Simpsonsfan is available.
Sorry-but there's no getting away from the fact that this is illegal & immoral, & I hope ntl take him to court.
Talk about ripping of customers, well NTL is not going to offer them better by taking £10 a month and offering no onsite support is it?
Each to their own I guess.
But they could get a basic 256k BB service from an ADSL provider for literally a few £'s more, & get proper support-not when Simpsonsfan is available.
Sorry-but there's no getting away from the fact that this is illegal & immoral, & I hope ntl take him to court.
Also, if he is hosting a free images site on his own connection, there is no way the pensioners will get 256K speed from him..
timewarrior2001
26-07-2005, 10:18
Charging someone for something they could get for themselves for a few £'s more? (not only that, but they would get dedicated ISP support) I call that a rip off.
Immoral & Illegal.
But that's not the case here, & so it's not relevant.
What happens when the OAP needs help & he's not around? & I weould guess he's more than recouping his outlay too.
One connection per household-simple-perhaps BT would be happy if one person had the free calls 24/7 option, & let all the neighbours (who didn't have BT lines at all) use it?
That doesn't make it right though.
I think you're wrong. ;)
See above.
Then be reasistic, & realise that he is trying to cover his BB costs at the expense of OAPs who know no better. :td:
And you think that's acceptable do you? :erm:
But they could get a basic 256k BB service from an ADSL provider for literally a few £'s more, & get proper support-not when Simpsonsfan is available.
Sorry-but there's no getting away from the fact that this is illegal & immoral, & I hope ntl take him to court.
Thing is though, he isnt just supporting their connection, he's supporting everyhting they do on a PC. If you had a virus on your PC and couldnt remove it, how much would PC world charge?
If you wanted more ram how much do PC world charge to install it?
What I am saying is that he isnt really ripping customers off, he is offering something other than an internet connection for 10 quid a month.
Do NTL do on site support for PC's?
It would be impossible for the pensioners not to know what NTL charge, such is the advertising at the minute, My guess is that they are fully aware of what they could get but prefer this arrangement. Therefore he is not ripping them off.
As for my comments about the outbuilding, it was intended to show how easy it is to break T&C's and be doing somehting that is acceptable, therefore it IS relevant.
And no because other do it does not make it right, but we shouldnt be organising a witch hunt against someone that does whilst we are probably aware of others doing exactly the same.
The other thing that amazes me is that many people on here have condemend this guy for "illegal" activities, yet how many on here file share? How much of an effect does that have to other users, or is it a case of this is OK because everyone does it?
Yes he is WRONG. But what I was trying to say is that many of the accusations thrown at him about detrimental service to other people in the area are not realistic. I dont know exaclt whats going on re web hosting on his account, but if he wasnt charging £10 a month I doubt many people here would have batted an eyelid and regarded him as helping the elderly.
Its a strange one this.
Just read the whole thread.
He's not ripping off the pensioners as such.
He has told them for £10 a month they can share his connection and he will support them as much as he can.
You obviously didn't read the bit where he said "I give out my 3MB NTL Broadband connection to people at 10 pounds a month each, but I put them all on the lowest QoS bandwidth management setting my router has, so that way I can still use WinMX and surf digitalspy while my neighbours enjoy their supposed "broadband" internet."
Admittedly he said that on DigitalSpy, not on here, but we have quoted him in this thread more than once. Not only is he defrauding NTL by operating outside the terms and conditions of his service, he is defrauding the pensioners because he has clearly told them they are getting Broadband. The details of his setup however, shows otherwise.
As for my comments about the outbuilding, it was intended to show how easy it is to break T&C's and be doing somehting that is acceptable, therefore it IS relevant.
Not really, because if you were using your own BB connection in your own outhouse/garden via your own wireless connection, then you're breaking no T's & C's whatsoever.
So you see, it was irrelevant after all! ;)
timewarrior2001
26-07-2005, 10:35
I give up, I'll go collect the firewood so we can burn him at the stake. Perhaps we could find some others and hound them out and have a bigger bonfire :rolleyes:
I only hope that everyone on here has never downloaded something illegally or allowed a file to be shared or done anything such as uncapping a modem (cough) because if you have you have no right to the moral high ground here.
I reckon theres people on here with more than 3 PC's sharing one connection, perhaps they should be burned at thge stake also? or is that OK because they arent making money from it or taking pensioners money?
I dont see what he has done as right, but I think theres more pressing issues we should be concerned about.
Personally I'm no angel, but I am NOT a hypocrite. (that is not aimed at everyone, just those people that know they break T&C's yet continue to presecute those others that do.
simpsonsFAN
26-07-2005, 10:38
Ok, following a letter on my doorstep this morning from the ntl internet security team:Yikes:, threating to cut off my connection in 7 days time if I dont stop running a business and selling broadband using my connection...
I have decided to move to a proper internet webhost, and will be reclaiming my wireless ethernet bridges during the day.
Hope your happy cableforum,
-Chris
MovedGoalPosts
26-07-2005, 10:41
To clear up a misconception here. The simple act of reselling of a broadband connection is not illegal as such, after all there are many legal resellers of such services.
When reselling is against the terms and conditions of the ISP, then it is a breach of contract by the reseller. The ISP is thus entitled to cancel the cotnract, and seek damages if it wishes. That is a civil law matter.
The web hosting of "free" servers is also an area that would come under scrutiny within the Ts & Cs, as a breach of contract rather than criminal law.
The criminal illegality bit will depend on how the reselling of the connection has been stated. We do not know what has been said to the pensioners. If he is selling a "share" of his connnection, that could be a reasonable statement. If he is selling a minimum speed, or bandwidth, that would be far more risky.
Now the real debate kickc in as to if he is not entitled to resell, as that is against his contract, does the act of reselling count as fraud - I suppose yes. It's got to be a little bit like handling stolen goods, you are not entitled to the item so making money from it is theft. Whether it is that serious that one could argue the cost being sold are so high relative to what is on offer as to be a form of extortion, I doubt we can currently say. We don't know how many are on this connection. One or two sharers might not be bad but 10, must be?
OK so he is offering some form of support service to thise pensioners. Nothing wrong with that. Indeed if he wishes he is entitled to charge somethign for that service. Again the amount that is charged woudl be the aspect of scrutiny.
Finally there is the aspect of the income from this. It would be regarded as taxable, so if it is not declared it is a form of tax evasion. We don't know that this is or is not happening and it would be unreasonable for us to make any accusation without more facts. That many (in all walks of lfe) no doubt do look on little bits of extra income as their own without declaring it is irrelevant as any defence or justification.
So what should really have happened is that each has their own direct connection with an ISP and then a reasonable charge is levied for support services.
simpsonsFAN
26-07-2005, 10:43
<big snip>Totaly irrelvent now, (read my other post above yours).
-Chris
Ok, following a letter on my doorstep this morning from the ntl internet security team:Yikes:, threating to cut off my connection in 7 days time if I dont stop running a business and selling broadband using my connection...
I have decided to move to a proper internet webhost, and will be reclaiming my wireless ethernet bridges during the day.
Hope your happy cableforum,
-Chris
Quite happy thanks, Chris. We'll make an honest businessman of you yet. Now, if you could revisit your homepage and do something about your atrocious spelling and dubious punctuation, I'm sure you'll be a dotcom millionaire by teatime. Good luck. ;)
Now lets look at ntl's AUP, and the breaches of it so far ...
2. General Use
2. in a way that will be a breach of any person's rights, including a breach of confidence, copyright, privacy or any other rights; or
3. in breach of any instructions we have given you under the Agreement; [BROKEN] or
4. in a way that is associated with a criminal offence; [BROKEN] or
8. in excess of "normal use" bandwidth limits set out in this section. [BROKEN]*
ntl: home's broadband and dial-up services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who use the services more heavily than a normal home user will reduce the performance of the network for other customers.
"Normal use" of the service is defined as up to 1 gigabyte downstream of data transfer daily (which equates to approximately 200 music tracks, 650 short videos, 10,000 pictures or around 100 large software programmes downloaded per day).
[b]4. Unacceptable Behaviour
Nobody may use the Service, either directly or indirectly:
1. to threaten, harass or cause distress, annoyance or discomfort to any other person or entity;
2. to intentionally disrupt or adversely affect any other person or entity's access to or use of the Internet or any features which form part of the Internet; [BROKEN]
[b]11. Fraud
Nobody may use the Services, either directly or indirectly to impersonate any person, entity or a minor or to commit or attempt to commit any fraud.
[b]20. Use of the Network (Broadband services)
You must not connect more than three (3) PC's to the Broadband Services at any one time. [BROKEN]
In connecting to the Broadband Service, you must only use a PC you own or lease, [BROKEN] and you must not attempt to connect your PC to the Broadband Services from outside your home [BROKEN]. This includes the use of wireless or non-wireless networking technology to connect your PC or any other PC to your Broadband Services from outside your home (other than your own garden) [BROKEN] or the connection of your PC to anyone else's Broadband Services.
Anyone else want to try and defend this ???
Ok, following a letter on my doorstep this morning from the ntl internet security team:Yikes:, threating to cut off my connection in 7 days time if I dont stop running a business and selling broadband using my connection...
I have decided to move to a proper internet webhost, and will be reclaiming my wireless ethernet bridges during the day.
Hope your happy cableforum,
-Chris
As happy as you are ripping off OAPs.
I hope you sleep well, & I also wonder how you would feel if it were your parents/grandparents getting ripped off in some way?
I have been a ntl customour for years now, I doubt they are going to threaten me now on your advice
You think? ;)
simpsonsFAN
26-07-2005, 10:55
<big snip>Anyone else want to try and defend this ???Clearly not...
-Chris
and will be reclaiming my wireless ethernet bridges during the day.
And now your pensioners lose their internet connection without warning...
I hope you give a truthful explanation of why you are closing down your mini isp, and i hope your pensioners demand a full refund of what they have paid you so far.
And now your pensioners lose their internet connection without warning...
I hope you give a truthful explanation of why you are closing down your mini isp, and i hope your pensioners demand a full refund of what they have paid you so far.
Good point. Chris, are you going to help your victims to choose a proper ISP now, and help them set their PCs up? It's the least you should be doing. Or would it expose just how badly you were ripping them off when they hand just an extra fiver a month to someone else and suddenly discover what broadband speed is meant to look like?
simpsonsFAN
26-07-2005, 11:16
And now your pensioners lose their internet connection without warning...Fraid so, I have been given 7days to remove the lot by NTL home, and I intend to have it all back by the end of the day as im not going to loose my connection, or pay 89.99/month for 1.5mb NTL business broadband.
I hope you give a truthful explanation of why you are closing down your mini isp, and i hope your pensioners demand a full refund of what they have paid you so far.I will tell them exactly why I am closing down my "mini isp", and I will pay back this months broadband charges to them, but somehow I dont think they will be demanding full refunds off me.
Now, on a different subject.. What on earth am I going to do with 20 odd linksys wireless ethernet bridges and a spare email server?
-Chris
Ok, following a letter on my doorstep this morning from the ntl internet security team:Yikes:, threating to cut off my connection in 7 days time if I dont stop running a business and selling broadband using my connection...
Nice one NTL for such a quick response :tu: Shame they didn't just cancel the whole account forthwith, but still, better than nothing.
Now, on a different subject.. What on earth am I going to do with 20 odd linksys wireless ethernet bridges and a spare email server?
-Chris
Maybe sell them to your victims...err customers so they have them ready when NTL put there proper connection in :rolleyes:
HAHA PARTY TIME WOOHOO
:dunce: :dunce: :cleader: :cleader:
Fraid so, I have been given 7days to remove the lot by NTL home, and I intend to have it all back by the end of the day as im not going to loose my connection, or pay 89.99/month for 1.5mb NTL business broadband.
I will tell them exactly why I am closing down my "mini isp", and I will pay back this months broadband charges to them, but somehow I dont think they will be demanding full refunds off me.
Now, on a different subject.. What on earth am I going to do with 20 odd linksys wireless ethernet bridges and a spare email server?
-Chris
20? If that's the true extent of your little business empire you could afford to take NTL's business package and carry on reselling to your neighbours, except legally (presuming NTL allow this on business). Were you raking in £200 a month, or were you using multiple bridges to reach each customer?
ian@huth
26-07-2005, 11:27
[
Now, on a different subject.. What on earth am I going to do with 20 odd linksys wireless ethernet bridges and a spare email server?
-Chris20 odd? :Yikes: Either a nice little earner or a load of BS. I cannot see anyone in their right mind who has 20 odd people paying him £10 month advertising the fact and risk losing that income.
ok, in all honesty I don't think there is much more that can be said. Ntl have acted, but it would seem the SimpsonFan shows no remorse whatsoever and intends to continue this illegal activity with another ISP.
I get the impression he is still gloating.
Thread closing in 15 minutes.
20? If that's the true extent of your little business empire you could afford to take NTL's business package and carry on reselling to your neighbours, except legally (presuming NTL allow this on business). Were you raking in £200 a month, or were you using multiple bridges to reach each customer?
That is one hell of a profit he was making! :shocked:
That is one hell of a profit he was making! :shocked:
I believe he did wrong but i think he is upping the number to gloat
Either a nice little earner or a load of BS.
I know which of the options I think it is ;) Sorry simpsonsFAN but in my opinion (which you can feel free to disagree with) you are a fool. By the way that's not a personal attack against you, it's just that I consider what you have done and how you have subsequently bragged about it to be rather foolish.
And on that note, the 15 minutes is up.
Ding!
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