View Full Version : A question about French Language?
The Fool
08-07-2005, 18:30
Am doing a French course. But what is bugging me is when should the VU become the TU. i.e. TU is used for people you are familiar with, but when exactly is that? Or is it just something you pick up along the way?
MadGamer
08-07-2005, 18:36
Am doing a French course. But what is bugging me is when should the VU become the TU. i.e. TU is used for people you are familiar with, but when exactly is that? Or is it just something you pick up along the way? Now where's Damien when you need him? :)
If you get a slap round the face, it's too personal :D Haven't practiced French for over 20 years, but iirc 'tu' refers to family & close friends.
Am doing a French course. But what is bugging me is when should the VU become the TU. i.e. TU is used for people you are familiar with, but when exactly is that? Or is it just something you pick up along the way?
I presume you mean "Vous" instead of "Tu" :)
There's no hard and fast rule, and from what I understand these days it's less strictly observed than it used to be, but I suspect the time would be once you're on "first name terms" with someone.
The Fool
08-07-2005, 18:55
I presume you mean "Vous" instead of "Tu" :)
There's no hard and fast rule, and from what I understand these days it's less strictly observed than it used to be, but I suspect the time would be once you're on "first name terms" with someone.
ah right. So, for instance, in a customer service environment it would be the Vous but if you bumped into some people (new people) in a pub after you had, say, bought some drinks it would be Tu?
There's no hard and fast rule, and from what I understand these days it's less strictly observed than it used to be, but I suspect the time would be once you're on "first name terms" with someone.
ah right. So, for instance, in a customer service environment it would be the Vous but if you bumped into some people (new people) in a pub after you had, say, bought some drinks it would be Tu?
That would probably be a good compromise, eg a customer or boss is "Sir" when you're at work (unless it's "Call me Gus, I'm a people person..."!) but "Fred" or "Harry" out of work.
The Fool
08-07-2005, 18:58
That would probably be a good compromise, eg a customer or boss is "Sir" when you're at work (unless it's "Call me Gus, I'm a people person..."!) but "Fred" or "Harry" out of work.
I see
Merci :)
Theodoric
08-07-2005, 19:02
I believe that tu is also used when speaking to young children. In fact, there is a verb, tutoyer, which means speaking down to people by using tu and toi to them, as if they were children.
That would probably be a good compromise, eg a customer or boss is "Sir" when you're at work (unless it's "Call me Gus, I'm a people person..."!) but "Fred" or "Harry" out of work.
I see
Merci :)
But if someone challenges you to a duel, don't blame me...! :D
The Fool
08-07-2005, 19:10
I believe that tu is also used when speaking to young children. In fact, there is a verb, tutoyer, which means speaking down to people by using tu and toi to them, as if they were children.
cheers (or should I say Salut :)). The course I am doing is a 'learn in the car' set of cds - it just gives you the basics to have a bit of a bash of a conversation. The way we got taught it in school was rubbish. They reckon you only need to know about 300 words in a language to sort of appear competent - eg, when, where, who, why, what etc - plus a few other bits and pieces of nouns thrown in here and there - and 'how do you say this in French etc'. You will always sound foreign anyway so they are bound to take that into account.
Also, while I am on the subject of things French - what would be the implications of saying Le instead of La (by mistake) and vice versa - how would it be percieved? is there an anology in English?
Raistlin
08-07-2005, 19:12
TBH, I think that most people are happy that you're making an attempt to speak to them in their own tongue.
I know that the last time I went to France I was quite warmly received (ok, the took the micky out of my accent and my pronouniation :) ) and they said that it was nice to meet someone who was actually trying - note that by "trying" I don't mean "shouting slowly" :D
cheers (or should I say Salut :)). The course I am doing is a 'learn in the car' set of cds - it just gives you the basics to have a bit of a bash of a conversation. The way we got taught it in school was rubbish. They reckon you only need to know about 300 words in a language to sort of appear competent - eg, when, where, who, why, what etc - plus a few other bits and pieces of nouns thrown in here and there - and 'how do you say this in French etc'. You will always sound foreign anyway so they are bound to take that into account.
Also, while I am on the subject of things French - what would be the implications of saying Le instead of La (by mistake) and vice versa - how would it be percieved? is there an anology in English?
Never got the hang of what was male and female in the French language as we only have the and it (except cars, boats and planes all female I understand).
The Fool
08-07-2005, 19:20
TBH, I think that most people are happy that you're making an attempt to speak to them in their own tongue.
I know that the last time I went to France I was quite warmly received (ok, the took the micky out of my accent and my pronouniation :) ) and they said that it was nice to meet someone who was actually trying - note that by "trying" I don't mean "shouting slowly" :D
yes - very true. I went to Spain once with a bunch of lads and one of them seemed to think that he could get by by speaking English in a sort of Spanish accent (seriously - he did) . He seemd to think he was a wow with the Spanish women :erm:
__________________
Never got the hang of what was male and female in the French language as we only have the and it (except cars, boats and planes all female I understand).
yes - english has no sexes (objects) in this manner - so it is hard to grasp the implications of mucking it up.
ScaredWebWarrior
08-07-2005, 20:31
ah right. So, for instance, in a customer service environment it would be the Vous but if you bumped into some people (new people) in a pub after you had, say, bought some drinks it would be Tu?
A little more subtle than that.
You would use vous with anyone you didn't know very well. Even someone you met down the pub etc. They might then suggest you call them by their first name, at which point using tu would be appropriate.
You would almost always use vous if you were talking to a superior (e.g. boss) or older person, as a sign of respect.
Similarly, if you really don't like someone and you want them to know it, use tu in a formal situation, e.g. a company meeting, where vous might generally be used by everyone.
__________________
I believe that tu is also used when speaking to young children. In fact, there is a verb, tutoyer, which means speaking down to people by using tu and toi to them, as if they were children.
Yup, and similarly there is vousvoyer which means the use of vous.
Someone, wishing to suggest you might want to be less formal might tell you that it isn't necessary to vousvoyer.
As I mentioned before, to tutoyer is not simply as 'talking to children' - it can also be to 'talk down' to someone.
__________________
Never got the hang of what was male and female in the French language as we only have the and it (except cars, boats and planes all female I understand).
After a while you get a 'fee'l for which it is. Even for the ones that don't make sense. lol.
Macca371
08-07-2005, 20:39
The Fool, I actually wouldn't bother too much about this area of French. Most French people wouldn't actually be offended if you were to use the incorrect pronoun, except possibly older and more traditional people. For any adult you meet, just use 'vous' all the time, it is probable that after a while they'll probably say 'S'il te plait, tutoies-moi' or something, inviting you to use the 'tu' form. This is how my French teacher told me to handle it.
One big difference between tu and vous, is that vous is the plural you, as in "you guys".
Vous in the singular is formal. You'd use it in something official, but not normally with friends. I think people use vous in questions as a force of habit "Voudrais-vous" as in "would you..."
ScaredWebWarrior
08-07-2005, 20:45
For any adult you meet, just use 'vous' all the time, it is probable that after a while they'll probably say 'S'il te plait, tutoies-moi' or something, inviting you to use the 'tu' form.
Although they more likely say 'S'il vous plait, tutoyez-moi' ;)
Macca371
08-07-2005, 20:46
Although they more likely say 'S'il vous plait, tutoyez-moi' ;)
Why are they?
ScaredWebWarrior
08-07-2005, 20:49
One big difference between tu and vous, is that vous is the plural you, as in "you guys".
Not really - vous does not distinguish between one or many, where tu can only be singular.
Vous in the singular is formal. You'd use it in something official, but not normally with friends. I think people use vous in questions as a force of habit "Voudrais-vous" as in "would you..."
I'd say 'formal', rather than 'official' (although in an official context it would certainly be vous.)
And those questions can just as easily be asked in the tu form...
__________________
Why are they?
Because by using vous in that statement they're not assuming that the use of the tu form will be coming next - it leaves it open for the person being asked to either accept or reject the less formal.
Macca371
08-07-2005, 20:50
Because by using vous in that statement they're not assuming that the use of the tu form will be coming next - it leaves it open for the person being asked to either accept or reject the less formal.
Possibly but I thought it would invite mutual conversation in 'tu'.
ScaredWebWarrior
08-07-2005, 20:52
Possibly but I thought it would invite mutual conversation in 'tu'.
No, because to use the tu in that manner would be to assume a level of familiarity which the other person may not desire, or imply some sort of 'camaraderie', where someone may prefer to keep the relationship more 'professional'.
As I said at the outset, the whole thing can be quite subtle.
smicer07
08-07-2005, 21:09
In it's simplest terms, Vous is used when talking to an adult that you don't know. Tu is used when talking to a child, or a friend. It's one of the toughest things in the French language though, deciding when "vous" becomes "tu", for example with a work colleague..
I use Tu when ever Im talking to friends, to kids and children younger than myself, and to family.
Vous is used to adults you have never met, your teachers, anyone higher up than you, and business contacts, unkown people, doctors, etc.
makikomi
09-07-2005, 02:18
I agree with the above - tu for family members, close friends and kids. Vous for everyone else, much as you'd use the title Mrs or Mrs.
Out of curiosity, who else here speaks french or has French family connections ? I know Damien and I do. Anyone else ?
makikomi
09-07-2005, 11:47
Je parle Francais un peu.
Voulez-vous un armoire maintenant?
Voulez-vous un armoire maintenant?
"Do you want a wardrobe fixed"??
Is this a continuation of the MFI thread...?! :dozey: :D
smicer07
09-07-2005, 17:59
I'm a French teacher, so if I didn't speak French I'd be a bit crap ;)
The Fool
09-07-2005, 18:22
I'm a French teacher, so if I didn't speak French I'd be a bit crap ;)
this site is quite neat too - there are other languages on ther also
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/french/
The Fool
09-07-2005, 19:40
I'm a French teacher, so if I didn't speak French I'd be a bit crap ;)
Hey - can I PM you if I get stuck with something during my rudimentary forays into the world of Frenchness? :)
Theodoric
09-07-2005, 20:18
I sentence that I have always wished that I could drop into the conversation, but have somehow never found the opportunity to do so is:
Vous parlez franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole.
:)
Macca371
09-07-2005, 20:19
I sentence that I have always wished that I could drop into the conversation, but have somehow never found the opportunity to do so is:
Vous parlez franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole.
:)
Est-ce que ÃÃâ€*’§a veut dire qu'on parle bien le franÃÃâ€*’§ais ou on le parle mal? Je crois que mal?
makikomi
09-07-2005, 22:07
"Do you want a wardrobe fixed"??
Is this a continuation of the MFI thread...?! :dozey: :D
I think it's do you want a wardrobe now... I dunno.
I learned French at school and have rarely used it since.
As Del Boy says... Bonjour!:disturbd:
The Fool
10-07-2005, 00:27
Est-ce que ÃÃâ€*’§a veut dire qu'on parle bien le franÃÃâ€*’§ais ou on le parle mal? Je crois que mal?
i thin k it translates to "do you speak french well or do you speak it badly? I think its bad"
amI wrong or am I wrong?
Yep thats right TheFool.
I'm going to be surrounded with frenchness next month as going over to see my family.
I'm a French teacher, so if I didn't speak French I'd be a bit crap ;)
Didnt know you were a french teacher. I hope you enjoy it.
Vous parlez franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole.
:)
:D LOL
The Fool
10-07-2005, 11:48
Originally Posted by Theodoric
Vous parlez franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole
does that say "you speak frenc like a spanish cow?" :confused:
Out of curiosity, who else here speaks french or has French family connections ? I know Damien and I do. Anyone else ?
French is my second language. It's great to learn, and easy to use.
Just joined this thread very late, so apologies if this is repetition: I generally use "TU" if speaking to children, family, or someone I know well; "VOUS" is used at all other times, and is always used for the plural. As for "LE" of "LA", I've found that sometimes even the French get it wrong! In conversation it tends to make little or no difference anyway. Sadly there are no hard and fast rules though. However, we have grammatical structures in English which, when they are pointed out, make French seem like a doddle!
(Smart ar*e comment coming up!) "VU" is the past participle of the verb "VOIR" meaning to see, and as such can be used in the adjectival form to mean "SEEN". Now, I shal hide away before people tear into me for being a pedantic swot!
Macca371
10-07-2005, 12:22
i thin k it translates to "do you speak french well or do you speak it badly? I think its bad"
amI wrong or am I wrong?
TrÃÃâ€*’¨s pres!
I said 'Does it mean that (one) speaks French well or badly? I think badly', I was referring to the 'Parler le franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole' expression.
makikomi
10-07-2005, 13:07
Originally Posted by Theodoric
Vous parlez franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole
does that say "you speak frenc like a spanish cow?" :confused:
I think you're right there.
Theodoric
11-07-2005, 19:32
Originally Posted by Theodoric
Vous parlez franÃÃâ€*’§ais comme une vache espagnole
does that say "you speak frenc like a spanish cow?" :confused:
Yes. Not to be used lightly. :)
The only other insulting French phrase that I know is, "Fermez la bouche."
Out of curiosity, who else here speaks french or has French family connections ? I know Damien and I do. Anyone else ?Yep, count me in. Have family connections, and have lived & worked in Paris and the Cote d'Azur for many years... although I gave it all up to live in Swindon for some reason :shrug:
Yes. Not to be used lightly. :)
The only other insulting French phrase that I know is, "Fermez la bouche."I know absolutely loads of wear words in French... being married to a Frenchie kinda helps you pick up the odd swear word or two ;) ...although they're usually being directed at me :disturbd:
homealone
11-07-2005, 20:05
Yes. Not to be used lightly. :)
The only other insulting French phrase that I know is, "Fermez la bouche."
actually 'shut up' is more insulting voiced as 'ta gueule' - for two reasons, one the use of the familiar 'ta', and also because 'gueule' means 'the mouth of an animal'. - our French teacher taught us that ;)
The only joy of doing A-level French was the fact that I can now swear fluently in another language :D
Fortunately for the swear filter and the general family-orientated nature of this forum, I can only say them, not spell them :disturbd:
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