View Full Version : Not a public apology.
I would have written this post in the "I believe" thread, but I can't because Russ has decided to close it.
I would have written it in the "A public apology" thread, but Russ has decided to close that one to.
So I'm having to create an entirely new thread to reply to some comments from Russ that I am not going to let slide.
I would also like to suggest that the Moderators of these fora might want to consider that if one of their number is engaged in a "controversial" discussion, that person *not* be allowed to close that thread because that seems to me to be an abuse of power.
Graham, I won't dignify your post with any kind of direct response. You have no idea what the Christian faith is about. When one person approaches a discussion with the sole notion of being critical of an opposing view, it's no longer a discussion, it's then more of a 'squabble'. You've done the same to Towny in the past and now doing the same to me.
If you don't want to answer the points raised by me or anyone else, fine, that is up to you. However to close a thread because you apparently don't like what is being said is inappropriate. To do so after posting a message like this seems like an attempt to "get the last word" and deny anyone else a right of reply.
As to your assertion above, actually I have a pretty good idea of what the Christian (Protestant) faith is about. I also know quite a bit about what the Christian (Catholic) faith is about and a fair number of other religions besides.
Secondly, your contention that I "approached this discussion with the sole notion of being critical of an opposing view" is utter nonsense.
In case you hadn't noticed the title of that discussion was "I believe", ie a thread started by someone who wanted to publically state what they believed in. Anyone posting in that thread, therefore, was *also* discussing beliefs (me included, after all, lack of Belief is still a belief!).
If you don't want others to discuss your beliefs or if you cannot accept people asking awkward questions about your beliefs and challenging them *DO NOT* post them in a public forum, especially not one *about* beliefs!
QUOTE: What you are doing is imposing your views on me and others. Well, I don't want you doing that. If you want to believe that stuff then take it elsewhere.
What you appear to be doing is trying to play the "guilt" card and make me think that somehow *your* views are "special" and that I shouldn't question them.
I am not trying to impose a view on anyone, I am questioning what you have said. If you don't like that, *YOU* go somewhere else.
QUOTE: You certainly appear to be the kind of person who feels the need to 'touch and feel' something before you will believe it. I've never derrided you for that. However I (and hundreds of millions of others) don't need need to be that materialistic, we're happy to believe what we believe.
Fine, I have no problem with that either. But just as *YOU* questioned my "need to 'touch and feel' something" (eg your comments about the planet Pluto) so I questioned your *unquestioning* belief in your god and your religion.
Now either we are *both* free to do that or we are not having a debate.
QUOTE: I have taken the choice to make my beliefs - to ask if I would be willing to change that should someone be able to prove me wrong demonstrates quite clearly you have hopelessly missed the point and never will grasp it.
No, it means that I will not blindly accept your viewpoint. But if your "faith" is so strong then you *shouldn't* have a problem with someone asking awkward questions like that!
QUOTE: In my opinion I never WILL be proven wrong about the existence of God, and neither am I interested in anyone's attempts to do so. I'm equally disinterested in trying to prove He's there - I neither need or have to.
Great, it's your choice.
But if *YOU* want me to simply accept on your say so, then *YOU* are trying to impose *YOUR* views on *ME*.
There is a word for that sort of behaviour...
I would have written this post in the "I believe" thread, but I can't because Russ has decided to close it.
So it's not just me imagining the mod team here stiffling debate then?
So it's not just me imagining the mod team here stiffling debate then?
no your not wrong people like to use there mod powers and do abuse there position :Peace:
downquark1
01-10-2003, 07:53
I'm sorry for getting the thread closed :( - I had no idea Russ would react like that.
Poor Russ was under a lot of strain yesterday :)
Graham,
I cant speak for here but I have seen this type of thing before on another well known forum. As a result I never posted on that forum again and I was one who had previously helped in many technical problems of users.
If admins cant admit public that they are sometimes wrong then the whole forum can go to pot.
The best thing to do is take it in ones stride and agree to disagree.
(This is not saying either of you are right or wrong its just my experience from other forums.)
Also, I like you, can be very stubborn with my views and will not let go until I have got my point across.
Sometimes people inadvertently get upset but its not intentional. That is what makes us different and I particularly enjoy reading opposing viewpoints, if we all had the same viewpoints there would be no need for forums because we would have nothing to discuss.
I concur though If admins are going to start closing thread just because they don't like what they read then they may as well close the whole "shebang" down.
I read in another thread of Kronas about the "religious" posting and it was said that she could have posted it in another thread.. The fact of the matter is she didn't and it was totally unnecessary for her to do so.
I would have liked the opportunity to reply but that was taken away from me by AFAIC an over zealous admin.
That last reply was unusually strongly phrased for Russ. I am not making excuses, but I think he is probably under strain.
Having said that, I do think he was wrong to close the thread the way he did.
BTW, tiptoes, kronas is not a woman...
As one of the Christians on this forum I sympathise with Russ, although I agree that I don't think the thread should have been closed for the reason it eventually was.
The thing is, we do get a bit peeved from time to time when it appears that some of our friends on here seem to think it their duty to try to show us the error of our ways and save us from the medieval ignorance that is religion. The fact that we show ourselves capable of carrying on a perfectly reasonable debate on any other subject just doesn't seem to cut any ice when it comes to threads that have a religious dimension and our views get treated with a lack of respect that is at times quite stunning (and sometimes hurtful).
Graham, I think the fact that you felt it necessary to start a whole new thread just so you could make your point (again) proves this quite nicely. Let no-one ever accuse a Christian again of being arrogant or needing to beat people over the head with their point of view.
Rightly or wrongly, the thread was shut so you should have left it. If you have things to say to Russ, PM him.
downquark1
01-10-2003, 12:39
I don't want to cause any more trouble but did anyone read what I said and got the same impression that Russ got?
I don't want to cause any more trouble but did anyone read what I said and got the same impression that Russ got?
I did, I read it and thought it out of character for you, and was not really suprised by Russ's reaction. However, Russ does not normally react that way and maybe he was under stress.
Russ's opinions are his own, and I don't see why people wish to attack his beliefs. Each to their own, he believes as do many others, just he advertises it more. This is not wrong at all.
I don't want to cause any more trouble but did anyone read what I said and got the same impression that Russ got?
Depends on whether you were being tongue-in-cheek ... speaking for myself, I'm not on this forum to 'break' anyone, I'm here to have a good chin-wag. I would be distressed if anyone else on here was out to 'convert' people to their point of view, especially as us Christians on here have a kind of unwritten rule that while we are happy to share our viewpoint when it's relevant to the discussion, or when asked, we do not go preaching or trying to impose. That's not what this forum is for. There are places on the net where you can go if you want to get converted... try http://church.co.uk/ ;)
I think there are one or two people on here who would like to try to 'defeat' religion via the forum but neither Russ nor I thought you were one of them. I still don't think you are - the discussion got a little heated over minutae like the existence of Pluto and tempers frayed as a result. I think we all knew that all Russ was trying to do was to make an illustration about the nature of faith versus hard fact, but picking the analogy to bits was a bit pointless - it was the analogy that was a bit weak, not the underlying premise.
downquark1
01-10-2003, 12:53
I did, I read it and thought it out of character for you, and was not really suprised by Russ's reaction. However, Russ does not normally react that way and maybe he was under stress.
Russ's opinions are his own, and I don't see why people wish to attack his beliefs. Each to their own, he believes as do many others, just he advertises it more. This is not wrong at all.
With hindsight, I worded it too seriously, I was joking that Russ was Job and we were the 'devils' tempting him from faith.
I thought the references to zeus made it look like I was joking.
I would have written this post in the "I believe" thread, but I can't because Russ has decided to close it.
I would have written it in the "A public apology" thread, but Russ has decided to close that one to.
So I'm having to create an entirely new thread to reply to some comments from Russ that I am not going to let slide.
I would also like to suggest that the Moderators of these fora might want to consider that if one of their number is engaged in a "controversial" discussion, that person *not* be allowed to close that thread because that seems to me to be an abuse of power.
If you don't want to answer the points raised by me or anyone else, fine, that is up to you. However to close a thread because you apparently don't like what is being said is inappropriate. To do so after posting a message like this seems like an attempt to "get the last word" and deny anyone else a right of reply.
As to your assertion above, actually I have a pretty good idea of what the Christian (Protestant) faith is about. I also know quite a bit about what the Christian (Catholic) faith is about and a fair number of other religions besides.
Secondly, your contention that I "approached this discussion with the sole notion of being critical of an opposing view" is utter nonsense.
In case you hadn't noticed the title of that discussion was "I believe", ie a thread started by someone who wanted to publically state what they believed in. Anyone posting in that thread, therefore, was *also* discussing beliefs (me included, after all, lack of Belief is still a belief!).
If you don't want others to discuss your beliefs or if you cannot accept people asking awkward questions about your beliefs and challenging them *DO NOT* post them in a public forum, especially not one *about* beliefs!
QUOTE: What you are doing is imposing your views on me and others. Well, I don't want you doing that. If you want to believe that stuff then take it elsewhere.
What you appear to be doing is trying to play the "guilt" card and make me think that somehow *your* views are "special" and that I shouldn't question them.
I am not trying to impose a view on anyone, I am questioning what you have said. If you don't like that, *YOU* go somewhere else.
QUOTE: You certainly appear to be the kind of person who feels the need to 'touch and feel' something before you will believe it. I've never derrided you for that. However I (and hundreds of millions of others) don't need need to be that materialistic, we're happy to believe what we believe.
Fine, I have no problem with that either. But just as *YOU* questioned my "need to 'touch and feel' something" (eg your comments about the planet Pluto) so I questioned your *unquestioning* belief in your god and your religion.
Now either we are *both* free to do that or we are not having a debate.
QUOTE: I have taken the choice to make my beliefs - to ask if I would be willing to change that should someone be able to prove me wrong demonstrates quite clearly you have hopelessly missed the point and never will grasp it.
No, it means that I will not blindly accept your viewpoint. But if your "faith" is so strong then you *shouldn't* have a problem with someone asking awkward questions like that!
QUOTE: In my opinion I never WILL be proven wrong about the existence of God, and neither am I interested in anyone's attempts to do so. I'm equally disinterested in trying to prove He's there - I neither need or have to.
Great, it's your choice.
But if *YOU* want me to simply accept on your say so, then *YOU* are trying to impose *YOUR* views on *ME*.
There is a word for that sort of behaviour...
If this isn't trolling Graham I don't know what is :(
The forums rules state that users shouldn't open another thread when one on the same subject has been closed - if I wanted to get heavy handed Graham I could have given you a warning, suspended posting right etc but chose not to.
In the last thread things were going around and around, the same points being raised over and over again. As a mod I'm given the ability to use my judgement in discussions. In my opinion the direction you were coming from was certainly confrontational ans argumentative, I even recieved 5 PMs from people asking why I put up with you. I kept it going in the spirit of discussion but no, you will not allow me to have my beliefs without you getting in the last word. Well I'm sorry, but I'm not putting up with that.
Of course, some will say I was abusing my powers as a mod in order to close it and make it go my way, but actually I PM'd another mod to ask him to intervene but for whatever reason he didn't get it until last night.
Numerous people have commented that you appear not interested in a rational debate, instead preferring to rubbish my views and disallow me to have beliefs which differ from yours. I have never tried (or wanted) to get others to see things my way as I consider that an invasion of privacy. My modus operandi is to make it quite clear I am a Christian, but if anyone wants to know more, they can come to me rather than the other way around.
Graham, sir, leave me have my beliefs as I allow you to have yours.
The forums rules state that users shouldn't open another thread when one on the same subject has been closed - if I wanted to get heavy handed Graham I could have given you a warning, suspended posting right etc but chose not to.
In the last thread things were going around and around, the same points being raised over and over again. As a mod I'm given the ability to use my judgement in discussions. In my opinion the direction you were coming from was certainly confrontational ans argumentative, I even recieved 5 PMs from people asking why I put up with you. I kept it going in the spirit of discussion but no, you will not allow me to have my beliefs without you getting in the last word. Well I'm sorry, but I'm not putting up with that.
Of course, some will say I was abusing my powers as a mod in order to close it and make it go my way, but actually I PM'd another mod to ask him to intervene but for whatever reason he didn't get it until last night.
Numerous people have commented that you appear not interested in a rational debate, instead preferring to rubbish my views and disallow me to have beliefs which differ from yours. I have never tried (or wanted) to get others to see things my way as I consider that an invasion of privacy. My modus operandi is to make it quite clear I am a Christian, but if anyone wants to know more, they can come to me rather than the other way around.
Graham, sir, leave me have my beliefs as I allow you to have yours.:wavey: Hiya Russ, How's Ireland ??
Fine thanks.
And yes I was having an 'off' day. I'm only human after all. Apologies if anyone thought I was wrong.
As one of the Christians on this forum I sympathise with Russ, although I agree that I don't think the thread should have been closed for the reason it eventually was.
The thing is, we do get a bit peeved from time to time when it appears that some of our friends on here seem to think it their duty to try to show us the error of our ways and save us from the medieval ignorance that is religion. The fact that we show ourselves capable of carrying on a perfectly reasonable debate on any other subject just doesn't seem to cut any ice when it comes to threads that have a religious dimension and our views get treated with a lack of respect that is at times quite stunning (and sometimes hurtful).
i agree with towny, as another of the christians on this site..........
i think too often it seems as though people start threads about "religion" and it ends up with a few people trying to talk the christians out of their views...........i kept out of the thread mainly because i could see how it would end up.
i have a lot of respect for russ, because he is so strong in faith and he does try to answer criticisms and questions, but sometimes even us christians snap when we are pushed to much
i agree with towny, as another of the christians on this site..........
i think too often it seems as though people start threads about "religion" and it ends up with a few people trying to talk the christians out of their views...........i kept out of the thread mainly because i could see how it would end up.
i have a lot of respect for russ, because he is so strong in faith and he does try to answer criticisms and questions, but sometimes even us christians snap when we are pushed to much
Yes, there are certainly some people on this site who will start a thread on religion or Christianity purely with the aim of rubbishing it, all under the disguise of a 'discussion'. Yes we have free speech but with that comes the responsibility of using it wisely. When someone asks a question on the subject and one of the site's Christians step forward to answer it, it's EXTREMELY bad manners to then attack or criticise him/her for having that view when all they are doing is answering a question. Certain users would do well to bear that in mind.
Yes, there are certainly some people on this site who will start a thread on religion or Christianity purely with the aim of rubbishing it, all under the disguise of a 'discussion'. Yes we have free speech but with that comes the responsibility of using it wisely. When someone asks a question on the subject and one of the site's Christians step forward to answer it, it's EXTREMELY bad manners to then attack or criticise him/her for having that view when all they are doing is answering a question. Certain users would do well to bear that in mind.
i agree russ, but as you and i both know this is something that we both come into daily contact with.............unfortunately, it seems part of being a christian in todays secular society.......but i have been reading your posts and am impressed with the way you can hold an "discussion"
As Nemesis (I think) said, I have said in the past, and (I think) Russ has said as well: We are all entitled to our own beliefs.
Russ has said he was having an off day yesterday. Maybe that is why he closed the thread (although it was going round in circles, so maybe it should have been closed).
Russ has (AFAIK) never set out to impose his beliefs on anyone, but has answered questions when he can and does state his opinions.
As this thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, does anyone have objections to me closing it? If not I'll lock it down 4.55pm.
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