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Mark W
30-09-2003, 21:48
This subject has no doubt been done to death all over the place but ive been thinking about it alot recently....

Basically, the human race has been around for a few million years (by that i mean walking around on 2 feet and having opposable thumbs etc) and our evolution has been goverend by nature - enter Darwin stage left - but in the last, 200/300 years say, we have made incredible leaps in technology which have had a driect impact on the lives we lead.

yet, when you think about it, 2/300 years is just a blink in time. nature no longer has any say in what happens to us - what with cures for just about anything apart from aids and cancer - and even those we are battling hard.

What happens to evolution when we are artificially kept alive longer, able to modify our bodies and even choose the kind of offspring we want?

I just wonder what mankind will be like 2/300 years from now? At the moment we think nothing of adding silicone to our bodies, altering our physical appearance and using prosthetic limbs. dont get me wrong, im not againsed any of that - esp the limbs bit, but it does leave me with a slightly disturbing image of a world of individual 'borgs' walking about (for you who arnt up on star trek, borgs are half man half machine).....

Just wondered what you folk think we will be like 300 years from now?

homealone
30-09-2003, 22:17
good question!:)

personally I'd like to see a hybrid of technology & a more simple existence. Kind of the rise of the technically advanced artisan:)

- presumably telecoms will have advanced to the point where more people could work at home - no rat race with it's stress & pollution for them, for example.

- there are so many areas for discussion, medical, just one. I think we should continue research into cures for cancer, aids etc. Stem cells is a potentially revolutionary line of research. - but I don't believe we should delve too deeply into the subject of cloning.

- I think we should take more notice of evolutionary issues - imo it is better to build a good immune system by eating dirt & worms when you are young than taking medication when you are older....

- but, my opinion, our ability to communicate & access information will be the major force for any change in society over the next 50 years, let alone the next 300 - it's only just started!

downquark1
30-09-2003, 22:31
What happens to evolution when we are artificially kept alive longer, able to modify our bodies and even choose the kind of offspring we want? Unfortunally, the way evolution works is that all the ill people die and therefore preventing any genetic problem from passing on. This would mean that family illnesses would disappear (unless they occured in late life). Unfortunally, with medical technology allowing us to live longer, this will cause faulty genes to pass on and on until they are so diluted through the human race that nearly everyone will have some illness or another.

Of course this can be fixed with genetic modifacation, but that's 'unnatural', what people seem to forget is pennisilin and surgeory is unnatural too.

Mark W
30-09-2003, 22:32
good question!:)
but, my opinion, our ability to communicate & access information will be the major force for any change in society over the next 50 years, let alone the next 300 - it's only just started!

Thats what i think too. Probably why ive the image of the borg in my mind - all somehow connected via a living network, able to communicate instantly and directly with who you want.

Its not a nice thought, as although humans are social animals, our souls are our own, and to be 'linked' in such a way is an anethma (that is a word aint it?) to me. It could well happen. the current social thinking seems to be that unity and comformity means strength and security - on a larger scale think of the EU, euro etc. but how far will we take that unification?

Jerrek
01-10-2003, 07:32
Basically, the human race has been around for a few million years
Once you prove that, I will read the rest of your post. (I actually did, but your post is based on this assumption. Before you can base your reasoning on an assumption, you have to prove it.)

300 years from now? If we're still around, hopefully colonizing space.

Stuart W
01-10-2003, 09:34
Once you prove that, I will read the rest of your post. (I actually did, but your post is based on this assumption. Before you can base your reasoning on an assumption, you have to prove it.) <SNIP>

I don't see how it would make a difference if Mark W had started off by saying humans have been around for a few thousand years.... we can still see evolution in progress over a span of a few hundred years, so anything over thousands is good enough for this example.

However, if you realy need proof.... the oldest example of "modern man" can be dated as 160,000 years old. (proof) (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/06/11_idaltu.shtml) Now, I am a believer in modern man not being a descendant of neanderthol man, so I would have to err on the side of humans being no older than 200,000 years.

Chris
01-10-2003, 09:55
Once you prove that, I will read the rest of your post. (I actually did, but your post is based on this assumption. Before you can base your reasoning on an assumption, you have to prove it.)

300 years from now? If we're still around, hopefully colonizing space.

Jerrek has a point - evolution and the longevity of the Earth is a dominant theory but is by no means proven fact. However, seeing as you asked, I think we'll be living longer, but probably not very healthy lives as technology makes our lives easier and even more sedentary. The big medical challenge will be a 'cure' for heart disease as we will have forgotten that the best way not to die of it is by living a healthy lifestyle in the first place...

downquark1
01-10-2003, 10:11
Jerrek has a point - evolution and the longevity of the Earth is a dominant theory but is by no means proven fact. However, seeing as you asked, I think we'll be living longer, but probably not very healthy lives as technology makes our lives easier and even more sedentary. The big medical challenge will be a 'cure' for heart disease as we will have forgotten that the best way not to die of it is by living a healthy lifestyle in the first place...
Of course, a major volcanic eruption or comet could hit tommorrow, but as a civilisation we must live under the assumption it won't (people tend to get fussy when they find out they are dying tomorrow).

There is one theory that suggests that there is nothing wrong with a sedatery life - I'll explain :blah: :
A common pattern in mammels is that the faster the heart beats the shorter the life (just look at the mouse and the elephant). So if you stop doing anything that causes faster heart beating (excercise, anxiety etc.) but only eat certain foods you will live alot longer. I don't think it's been proven.

Of course that raises the question "why be alive if you ain't going to have fun?"

Chris
01-10-2003, 10:32
Of course, a major volcanic eruption or comet could hit tommorrow, but as a civilisation we must live under the assumption it won't (people tend to get fussy when they find out they are dying tomorrow).

There is one theory that suggests that there is nothing wrong with a sedatery life - I'll explain :blah: :
A common pattern in mammels is that the faster the heart beats the shorter the life (just look at the mouse and the elephant). So if you stop doing anything that causes faster heart beating (excercise, anxiety etc.) but only eat certain foods you will live alot longer. I don't think it's been proven.

Of course that raises the question "why be alive if you ain't going to have fun?"

All mammals have a life expectancy that can be measured by a number of heartbeats, except humans. I forget the number; 70 million or something silly like that ... maybe someone in the know can post it? Anyhow, if we lived and died by the same rules that governs everything else - from mice to elephants and blue whales - we could expect to live 30 or 40 years.

altis
01-10-2003, 10:52
Just wondered what you folk think we will be like 300 years from now?

Well, extrapolating from the kids round here, blobs with vestiges of legs evolved through lack of use!

downquark1
01-10-2003, 10:52
All mammals have a life expectancy that can be measured by a number of heartbeats, except humans. I forget the number; 70 million or something silly like that ... maybe someone in the know can post it? Anyhow, if we lived and died by the same rules that governs everything else - from mice to elephants and blue whales - we could expect to live 30 or 40 years.
Well we did originally, I admit I don't know enough the theory to discuss further (I just thought it would be an interesting post), all I remember is seeing a program about someone who was actually testing the theory, of course it will be many years before we find out if he was successful, and by we I mean future generations.

ntluser
01-10-2003, 13:04
Unfortunally, the way evolution works is that all the ill people die and therefore preventing any genetic problem from passing on. This would mean that family illnesses would disappear (unless they occured in late life). Unfortunally, with medical technology allowing us to live longer, this will cause faulty genes to pass on and on until they are so diluted through the human race that nearly everyone will have some illness or another.

Of course this can be fixed with genetic modifacation, but that's 'unnatural', what people seem to forget is pennisilin and surgeory is unnatural too.


That's not quite true. People with defective genes, who are not among the fittest may still reproduce before they die, thus passing on their genes.

Equally, a very fit person with superb genes may choose not to reproduce at all or may be killed before they do and thus their contribution to the gene pool is lost.

Physical evolution has its limits and without the innate intelligence and technical skills of humans they would die as easily as the animals.

We enhance our lives because we can adapt ourselves and adapt our environments so that survival is maintained. Technology is a means of doing that.

Instead of growing gills to swim underwater we develop the aqualung courtesy of Jacques Cousteau. Instead of growing wings to fly we develop aircraft to enable us to do that.

When your heart begins to fail you may have a pacemaker. When a joint wears away you can have an artifical replacement because your body has limits and it cannot renew everything. This obviously gets worse as you get older because without treatment your body becomes less efficient.

It's possible over time that scientists may come to understand which genes give us the optimum human development and may be able to eradicate many gene-based conditions or illnesses but until then technology will have to suffice and like the body it has limits too.

Thus evolution and technology are complementary survival strategies and are not mutually exclusive. We need both to survive.

downquark1
01-10-2003, 13:22
That's not quite true. People with defective genes, who are not among the fittest may still reproduce before they die, thus passing on their genes.

Equally, a very fit person with superb genes may choose not to reproduce at all or may be killed before they do and thus their contribution to the gene pool is lost. I agree, (I did add the genetic disorder would pass on if it occured late in old age.) Generally successfull people pass on genes, early deaths are of course unfortunate, but you could say 'they weren't very successful then'. As for the may not choose to reproduce, there aren't many people like that today, mainly because all the non-reproductive didn't pass their genes on. ;)

In terms of evolution from early man, we can probably thank our existance to the strong and horny. Not that it's a good thing

Jerrek
01-10-2003, 17:28
I just want my own planet.

Mark W
01-10-2003, 17:57
I just want my own planet.

ahhhh....nothing wrong with a bit of ambition :)

ntluser
01-10-2003, 18:19
I just want my own planet.

Compared to the size of the UK, Canada is a planet. All that lovely scenery, lakes, mountains, rivers, forests etc...and you've got Stargate SG1's stargate for all those offworld trips!! Can't be bad!! ;)

ian@huth
01-10-2003, 18:55
Of course, a major volcanic eruption or comet could hit tommorrow, but as a civilisation we must live under the assumption it won't (people tend to get fussy when they find out they are dying tomorrow).


There are many scenarios that could lead to the virtual extinction of mankind besides the ones quoted. Man made disasters such as nuclear war or the greenhouse effect spring to mind. Whilst there are great advances in medicine that
have virtually eradicated many diseases there is always the possibility that new diseases will evolve that are resistant to the medication available. Could it be that the technological advances of the next century or so lead to genetic mutations that kill us all off.

homealone
01-10-2003, 19:39
Thats what i think too. Probably why ive the image of the borg in my mind - all somehow connected via a living network, able to communicate instantly and directly with who you want.

Its not a nice thought, as although humans are social animals, our souls are our own, and to be 'linked' in such a way is an anethma (that is a word aint it?) to me. It could well happen. the current social thinking seems to be that unity and comformity means strength and security - on a larger scale think of the EU, euro etc. but how far will we take that unification?

I agree there is a scarey aspect to a "wired world", the book called "The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster, describes a future society who become so reliant on technology that they hardly leave their rooms, until one day the system breaks down & they are completely unable to fend for themselves.

Such a scenario, imo, strangles the process of evolution, which is after all adapting to the environment, rather than adapting it, to suit us. I'm all for technology, but we need to seek a balance. I am reminded of the Nox in Stargate, technically very advanced, but who live a pastoral life focusing on the person & the community - we probably don't need to go & live in the woods & pick flowers - but should beware of putting "things" before people.

Jerrek
01-10-2003, 20:51
Compared to the size of the UK, Canada is a planet. All that lovely scenery, lakes, mountains, rivers, forests etc...and you've got Stargate SG1's stargate for all those offworld trips!! Can't be bad!! ;)
That is true. One of my goals in life is to buy a few hundred acres of land up north in Nunavut or Northwest Territories. Land is extremely cheap. I want a mountain, a valley, a river, and a lake on my land. I will then build a cabin and a crude runway, and declare it a reserve, which means no property tax. It would make a great getaway for a weekend. I can just rent a plane and fly there myself and have a great time in the wilderness. :)

15 years from now. Thats my goal. (I am 20 now)

Mark W
01-10-2003, 20:57
- we probably don't need to go & live in the woods & pick flowers - but should beware of putting "things" before people.

valid point, but theres about as much chance of that happening as the pope hiring himself out as a gigolo.

It has been the nature of mankind to use and adpapt technology to make life easier for themselves, starting back when our hairy ancestors first started using tools.
you tell people to stop using their cars and walk the mile to work and theyll give you bleak looks and mutter something under their breath.
we have got to the stage of our evolution where we NEED our technology to survive. you pickup a regular person off the high street, dump them in a well stocked forest odds are theyll be dead in a few months. this cant be a good thing surely.

someone mentioned before of the possibility of giant earthquakes, super volcanoes and the like - those wil cause our technology to collapse, sending the survivors of such an event into another dark age - and we simply wil be hard put to survive. thats why im all in favour of the scouts and cubs etc - we need to remind ourselves of hoew to survive with our bare hands, and be perpared for the off chance that one day we might actually HAVE to......

downquark1
01-10-2003, 21:02
Thats what i think too. Probably why ive the image of the borg in my mind - all somehow connected via a living network, able to communicate instantly and directly with who you want. That is assuming we are all compatable. You will probably need to download an extra driver to mind link with a mac user and some kind of spam filter for a politition. :D

downquark1
01-10-2003, 21:07
valid point, but theres about as much chance of that happening as the pope hiring himself out as a gigolo.

It has been the nature of mankind to use and adpapt technology to make life easier for themselves, starting back when our hairy ancestors first started using tools.
you tell people to stop using their cars and walk the mile to work and theyll give you bleak looks and mutter something under their breath.
we have got to the stage of our evolution where we NEED our technology to survive. you pickup a regular person off the high street, dump them in a well stocked forest odds are theyll be dead in a few months. this cant be a good thing surely.

someone mentioned before of the possibility of giant earthquakes, super volcanoes and the like - those wil cause our technology to collapse, sending the survivors of such an event into another dark age - and we simply wil be hard put to survive. thats why im all in favour of the scouts and cubs etc - we need to remind ourselves of hoew to survive with our bare hands, and be perpared for the off chance that one day we might actually HAVE to......Evolution generally, works that way (with a few exceptions) anything that isn't needed anymore fades away, otherwise it's just a waste of resources (which when food is low is the difference between life and death). Of course, humans no longer apply to these rules.

But anyway I :blah: :blah:

homealone
01-10-2003, 22:22
valid point, but theres about as much chance of that happening as the pope hiring himself out as a gigolo.

It has been the nature of mankind to use and adpapt technology to make life easier for themselves, starting back when our hairy ancestors first started using tools.
you tell people to stop using their cars and walk the mile to work and theyll give you bleak looks and mutter something under their breath.
we have got to the stage of our evolution where we NEED our technology to survive. you pickup a regular person off the high street, dump them in a well stocked forest odds are theyll be dead in a few months. this cant be a good thing surely.

someone mentioned before of the possibility of giant earthquakes, super volcanoes and the like - those wil cause our technology to collapse, sending the survivors of such an event into another dark age - and we simply wil be hard put to survive. thats why im all in favour of the scouts and cubs etc - we need to remind ourselves of hoew to survive with our bare hands, and be perpared for the off chance that one day we might actually HAVE to......

don't call me shirley:D

Exactly, it seems that the more technically advanced we become, the more we lose the skills that even recent generations took for granted. I really like watching the Ray Mears programs on survival skills, for example - though I hope never to have to use any of those ideas.<erm>

The "Machine Stops" book I mentioned above (published in 1909 btw!) was about people who, for one thing, couldn't prepare food if it was given to them, let alone find it. Some people today struggle to cook a meal, but can program a computer, watch telly & have a phone conversation at the same time. This high tech, high speed, instant gratification environment is challenging - evolution in this case is more about who can deal with stress & pollution - "survival of the fittest" is the basis of evolution, could we be separating into 2 species already;)

erol
02-10-2003, 00:33
Just wondered what you folk think we will be like 300 years from now?

Not sure but I cant help wondering if NTL will be able to run a stable mail server by then :)

Sorry for the off topic dirft / cheap shot at NTL

Xaccers
02-10-2003, 03:39
The "Machine Stops" book I mentioned above (published in 1909 btw!) was about people who, for one thing, couldn't prepare food if it was given to them, let alone find it. Some people today struggle to cook a meal, but can program a computer, watch telly & have a phone conversation at the same time. This high tech, high speed, instant gratification environment is challenging - evolution in this case is more about who can deal with stress & pollution - "survival of the fittest" is the basis of evolution, could we be separating into 2 species already;)

It was probably about the aristocracy back in 1909 (like 1984 was about 1948). Without servants (portrade as the machines) the aristocracy wouldn't be able to dress themselves, let alone feed themselves.
Scary thought if we slipped that low, and you're right in that alot of people can't even cook a basic meal, but can do wonders with technology

ZrByte
02-10-2003, 10:31
It seems even though we have thwarted evolution by stopping it dead in its tracks with regards to effecting humans, evolution has still found a way to beat us and they are mentioned above, this is called Aids (There a lot more than this obviously but I will focus on this first).
Basicly, you cantract Aids (Not HIV) you Will Die (Sadly :( ), however it has now been discovered that some people have a natural immunity to Almost every Virus (Inc Aids), it is a Genetic evolution called the Delta32 (I think thats it anyway, I know its delta something), Now if you have one instance of Delta32 in your Genes (Say you inherited it from your Father) you would be able to live an extremeley long time even with the aids Virus (much longer than expected) but then you would still eventually die from its effects.
However, If you have two instances of Delta32 (Inherited from Both Parents) You will have a complete immunity to Aids, The Common Cold, The Flu, etc, etc.
This because it changes something to do with the outer membrane of your Red & White Blood Cells wich stops a Virus from attatching itself to them, If I virus cannot attatch itself to your Cells It will eventually Die (Viruses Need Food Too :D , Well in a manner of speaking).

This means that if the spread of Aids continues to increase, only those with the Delta32 Genes present from Both parents will be able to survive.

This is exactly the type of genetic mutation wich brings about massive changes in the wild but with us humans will bring a much smaller change (allthough big for us)

This can also be combated with technology if we ever develope a cure, but it does seem that good ol' mother nature found a way to get us even through our advanced technology :D

Allthough once we develope NanoTechnology in its truest form we will be invulnrable :D

Edit: With Genetic mutations like this effecting us even now it makes you wonder what other Deadly super Dieases our Body can fight off that we dont even know about, It also means that travelling to other planets may be impossible for a long time, as there will be allsorts of indigenus diseases and Viri that our body cant even beggin to fight.
Was it War of the worlds when the aliens died from the common cold?? (That could be us in a few hundred years)

Chris
02-10-2003, 11:57
Edit: With Genetic mutations like this effecting us even now it makes you wonder what other Deadly super Dieases our Body can fight off that we dont even know about, It also means that travelling to other planets may be impossible for a long time, as there will be allsorts of indigenus diseases and Viri that our body cant even beggin to fight.
Was it War of the worlds when the aliens died from the common cold?? (That could be us in a few hundred years)
But isn't it just as likely that we would be completely immune to any alien pathogen? An offworld virus or bacterium would be looking for the growth medium it needs to survive, namely one composed of the same kind of stuff and that maintains the same kind of living environment as it does. As we come from a completely different environment, how likely is it that our bodies have what an alien bug needs in order to thrive?

Chris
02-10-2003, 12:06
It depends if the aliens have completely distroyed their virus or have just become immune.
eh?

downquark1
02-10-2003, 12:09
eh?
Sorry I missread what you said, to not disrupt the thread I will delete the posts.