View Full Version : Relationships and religion
Hi all,
I just wondered what opinions you guys/gals have on relaionships involving two people that have different views when it comes to religion?
Does anyone think a relationship will work involving one party who is a regular church attendee and the other party who last went to church when forced to by the school for the harvest festival around 25 years ago!
Will it work ?
Theodoric
28-09-2003, 15:38
Reading between the lines (and probably getting it entirely wrong), I would guess that you are the non-religious one.
In answer to your question, if the church attendee is a middle of the road C of E type, then, from my personal experience, there shouldn't be any problems if you behave sensibly and refrain from too many 'all religion is a load of rubbish' type comments.
If the church attendee is some fanatical religious type then, to be honest, I wouldn't really like to hazard a guess. However, if there are early signs that they are trying to convert you, then I'd heed the warnings.
Originally posted by Escapee
Hi all,
I just wondered what opinions you guys/gals have on relaionships involving two people that have different views when it comes to religion?
Does anyone think a relationship will work involving one party who is a regular church attendee and the other party who last went to church when forced to by the school for the harvest festival around 25 years ago!
Will it work ?
From what i know of other religions, including Islam, i would have thought it wasn't the issue of actually attending services that was the cause for possible friction but the belief in one God.
If both have a belief in the existence of this being then the other potential issues can be resolved relatively easily. But every individual case is different as are people's religious beliefs.
It's something that the couple would have to deal with as best they can if they think the relationship is likely to be a long term one, since it will no doubt have an effect on the upbringing of any offspring that they may have.
You only mention that the second person has not been to church for years..... but do not mention their beliefs. I don't believe them to be one and the same :)
escapee it really depends on if either of the persons are going to impose there views if they have differing views on religion you could be in for a interesting argument :D
but if both of them can live with each others views and let each other do as they please regarding religion and not force any views on each other it should work
Spot on Krona
Couldnt agree More
The problem is, a lot of people who have views on this subject will have no religious belief, they are only looking in from the outside. When you are a practising Christian/catholic/whatever, the situation is different.
i'm often told by my christian friends that i should not date non-christians.................but i've dated christians and non christians and i don't really think there is a lot of difference, the most important thing is that the person you are dating respects your views...............respect is the important thing here not whether they share your view.....well thats what i think anyway
On the face of it it ought to make no difference. I have Christian friends and non-Christian friends and the fact that I believe something and they don't doesn't cause friction.
My note of caution however is that anyone who takes their religion seriously (I am one of these) considers it to be a pattern for living, not just attending a religious ceremony once a week. This is unlikely to cause bother if you're just 'going out', but later if you get married it could cause issues - as Kink says, how do you bring up the children? What's her view on your porn stash (not saying you have one - just making generalisations ;) )
Thanks for all the views on the subject, it's a bit awkward to give all the details on a private forum but things seem to be going OK.
btw towny she loved the porn stash :)
I think the fact that her father is a priest possibly makes her not so bad, I guess she just grew up around religion and appeared to stay away from church until recently.
Perhaps it was forced fom a young age and not her choice, it's a subject that I have dared not to ask!
btw I am the non-believer.
Thanks again
I think the fact that her father is a priest possibly makes her not so bad, I guess she just grew up around religion and appeared to stay away from church until recently.
Perhaps it was forced fom a young age and not her choice, it's a subject that I have dared not to ask!
btw I am the non-believer.
Thanks again
hope it goes well it should work out i have recently become freinds with someone who is religious not deeply but he has explained it to me about my religion which i am 'born' in to though i choose not to accept and we agree to disagree doesent change anything we are stil firends nothing changed when he knew that i am a non believer :)
Hi all,
I just wondered what opinions you guys/gals have on relaionships involving two people that have different views when it comes to religion?
Does anyone think a relationship will work involving one party who is a regular church attendee and the other party who last went to church when forced to by the school for the harvest festival around 25 years ago!
Will it work ?
Who knows?After all there are plenty of relationships between folk of the same religion,even the same church that go awry.
Just appreciate each others differences and adore your similarities.
Incog.
Atomic22
01-10-2003, 18:26
theres an old saying .......love conquers all.
it will win over race , colour , creed , religion , bigotry , jealousy etc etc etc
whether you date a religious fanatic or a fanatical athiest makes no difference to it.
and its all that counts in the end
theres an old saying .......love conquers all.
it will win over race , colour , creed , religion , bigotry , jealousy etc etc etc
whether you date a religious fanatic or a fanatical athiest makes no difference to it.
and its all that counts in the end
It's not always that cut-and-dried. Like Towny, I take my faith seriously and it's not just a case of meeting up with a bunch of my fellow Jesus-freaks once a week. There are certain things I cannot and will not do now. We'll start with the obvious - sex. OK I gave in on the night my daughter was concieved but I can't really see many people other than those who share my faith who would be willing to abstain until marriage (note: I'm saying that in the respect of most people in a relationship would find sex to be part-and-parcel of what goes on) so this would certainly be a major issue. I don't feel I'm missing out however, simply because anyone who is not willing to go along with my beliefs simply isn't 'the one' IMO.
theres an old saying .......love conquers all.
it will win over race , colour , creed , religion , bigotry , jealousy etc etc etc
whether you date a religious fanatic or a fanatical athiest makes no difference to it.
and its all that counts in the end
Hear, hear, Russ ... and to further address Atomic's post, both my wife and I are committed Christians who take the first commandment very seriously indeed - we put nothing, and no-one, before God, including each other. I would not have married her if I thought she would regard me more highly than she does God, and I know the same is true for her. This, ultimately, is why when considering something as serious as marriage I can't see how a relationship between a committed Christian and someone of another (or no particular) faith could work. I imagine it would be the same for several of the other religions as well, but as usual I can't really speak for those...
By the way, I don't mean to come on all heavy - I know the original question was about dating rather than a full-on white wedding! :)
Hear, hear, Russ ... and to further address Atomic's post, both my wife and I are committed Christians who take the first commandment very seriously indeed - we put nothing, and no-one, before God, including each other. I would not have married her if I thought she would regard me more highly than she does God, and I know the same is true for her. This, ultimately, is why when considering something as serious as marriage I can't see how a relationship between a committed Christian and someone of another (or no particular) faith could work. I imagine it would be the same for several of the other religions as well, but as usual I can't really speak for those...
By the way, I don't mean to come on all heavy - I know the original question was about dating rather than a full-on white wedding! :)
I was peased with Atomic22's reply because it does point out that people can change when something else becomes of greater importance.
To take it to the extreme, many years ago we had a family member who was a Jahova's (or whatever) witness. She did not believe in blood transfusions until her daughter was at deaths door and needed one to keep her alive, she very quickly dropped her religion. I also know of catholics that turned their backs on religion to get a divorce so I guess people can change their opinion.
I don't want to take this away from my original question, but the person that I started this thread about said they did not believe in sex before marraige. They have allready broken that rule but still go to church, so I guess she can be classed as a bit hypocritical.
I guess sometimes something comes along that changes things, I guess she (hopefully) feels strongly enough to make her own decisions in life. I guess that I am bad in the eyes of the church because I please myself and no-one else.
Off Soapbox.
Anyway thanks to all of you for the feedback to my question.
I don't want to take this away from my original question, but the person that I started this thread about said they did not believe in sex before marraige. They have allready broken that rule but still go to church, so I guess she can be classed as a bit hypocritical.
That's one of the biggest misconceptions about Christians. We aren't perfect!! We still sin! Yes I've had sex since becoming a Christian and I'm not married. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. It would be a different matter if I went around warning other people not to do it whilst I was happily getting my oats every night. We get tempted, occasionally it gets too strong for us, but as as long as we are truly sorry for what we have done (and not just 'sorry' for the sake of gaining forgiveness so God wipes the slate clean, then get on with sinning again) we are forgiven.
That's one of the biggest misconceptions about Christians. We aren't perfect!! We still sin! Yes I've had sex since becoming a Christian and I'm not married. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. It would be a different matter if I went around warning other people not to do it whilst I was happily getting my oats every night. We get tempted, occasionally it gets too strong for us, but as as long as we are truly sorry for what we have done (and not just 'sorry' for the sake of gaining forgiveness so God wipes the slate clean, then get on with sinning again) we are forgiven.
I accept the bit about not being perfect, it's totally understandable. The bit I can't understand is the tempted occassionally bit! How would you class occassionally? would it be once a week, once a month, once a year etc.
I think you can see what I am getting at, it's not a matter of trying to wind anyone up with my question but perhaps a christian would be unable to stay on the right path on a weekly basis. (sex every Friday night for example) Perhaps they would be honestly sorry for what they have done, but would it be right to expect forgivness for these acts commited on a weekly basis?
I am not trying to stray off my original topic, it does help me understand my original question.
I accept the bit about not being perfect, it's totally understandable. The bit I can't understand is the tempted occassionally bit! How would you class occassionally? would it be once a week, once a month, once a year etc.
I think you can see what I am getting at, it's not a matter of trying to wind anyone up with my question but perhaps a christian would be unable to stay on the right path on a weekly basis. (sex every Friday night for example) Perhaps they would be honestly sorry for what they have done, but would it be right to expect forgivness for these acts commited on a weekly basis?
I am not trying to stray off my original topic, it does help me understand my original question.
I would say me and my missus felt tempted just about every day before our wedding. It was tough at times but we never gave in...
To widen the discussion of temptation a little (without wishing to stray off-topic), a christian could be tempted to look at p0rn, especially in this internet age where it's easy to find for free. Knowing it's wrong it might not be a problem for this person for months at a time and then suddenly the temptation starts. If this is hard to understand, it's because it's not just about physical urges. We believe there is a real Devil, who knows the way we want to live and sets out to draw us off-course.
towny said "We believe there is a real Devil, who knows the way we want to live and sets out to draw us off-course."
That'll be me then :nono: :)
Funny thing was someone from her church was on the phone to her preaching about relationships with non-christians while we were out, he was warning her about the white devil.
I thought the best part was that the guy actually fancied her and has been asking her out for a while and she has been turning him down! I guess religion can be used as a lever to your own advantage sometimes.
that's not a dig just an observation in my recent involvement.
Atomic22
02-10-2003, 19:40
i always thought "in the eyes of the lord we are all the same" so therefore making non-christians no-no's for romances etc because they are non christians says we are not all the same in your eyes.
sticking religiously to commandment number one and breaking others when you feel like it is also hypocrisy.
when i met my girl i wasn't thinking hmmmm shes nice but if she isnt a christian she can take a hike...
people slating others for being christians are as bad as christians slating others for not believing..
bigotry works both ways
love works only one way
I thought the best part was that the guy actually fancied her and has been asking her out for a while and she has been turning him down! I guess religion can be used as a lever to your own advantage sometimes.
that's not a dig just an observation in my recent involvement.
well thats the abuse in power position i talk about that happens in religion but thats for another thread
escapee ask yourself this do you really like her ? take the religion factor out for a moment and concentrate on the positives do you think them alone will make this relationship blossom ? if the answer is yes then you need to look in to a 2 way tolerance system where she can continue to do what she does with the church and you having your own thoughts processes as long as both of you dont force anything on to each other all should be fine
relationships in a BF GF manner are awkward but working out things can make things happen and to your advantage
obviously i dont know anything about you two but its just my opinion you can choose to ignore it or tell me to shut up :)
well thats the abuse in power position i talk about that happens in religion but thats for another thread
escapee ask yourself this do you really like her ? take the religion factor out for a moment and concentrate on the positives do you think them alone will make this relationship blossom ? if the answer is yes then you need to look in to a 2 way tolerance system where she can continue to do what she does with the church and you having your own thoughts processes as long as both of you dont force anything on to each other all should be fine
relationships in a BF GF manner are awkward but working out things can make things happen and to your advantage
obviously i dont know anything about you two but its just my opinion you can choose to ignore it or tell me to shut up :)
I will not choose to ignore you at all Kronas. I think the big differences between our backgrounds have actually given us many points for discussion so far, but the religion discussion has not really been discussed to any great extent. I don't know what would happen if she was given the choice between me and religion, but she did miss her church meetings for three weeks after she met me. I did not directly have any input/influence into these actions, she mentioned it after a few weeks.
Apparently her former husband was very religious, and slept with every girl he could get his hands on! That also worried me about the aids issue, I hadn't given it great thought due to her religious background.
PS: Kronas you will probably know why it's such a worry after the info in my PM to you.
I will not choose to ignore you at all Kronas. I think the big differences between our backgrounds have actually given us many points for discussion so far, but the religion discussion has not really been discussed to any great extent. I don't know what would happen if she was given the choice between me and religion, but she did miss her church meetings for three weeks after she met me. I did not directly have any input/influence into these actions, she mentioned it after a few weeks.
Apparently her former husband was very religious, and slept with every girl he could get his hands on! That also worried me about the aids issue, I hadn't given it great thought due to her religious background.
PS: Kronas you will probably know why it's such a worry after the info in my PM to you.
ok mate ill get back to you as soon as i can im going out now but remember if you dont like my advice just say so im only telling you what i think is right :)
i always thought "in the eyes of the lord we are all the same" so therefore making non-christians no-no's for romances etc because they are non christians says we are not all the same in your eyes.
sticking religiously to commandment number one and breaking others when you feel like it is also hypocrisy.
when i met my girl i wasn't thinking hmmmm shes nice but if she isnt a christian she can take a hike...
people slating others for being christians are as bad as christians slating others for not believing..
bigotry works both ways
love works only one way
Well, you completely misunderstood what I said. At no point have I said, or even implied, that I would never have married a non-Christian because she was different to me, or not as good as me. What I actually said (discussing my wife) was:
I would not have married her if I thought she would regard me more highly than she does God, and I know the same is true for her. This, ultimately, is why when considering something as serious as marriage I can't see how a relationship between a committed Christian and someone of another (or no particular) faith could work.
And on the subject of temptation, or breaking commandments, I said:
I would say me and my missus felt tempted just about every day before our wedding. It was tough at times but we never gave in...
I know that accusing Christians of hypocrisy is a fun pastime - you'd just love it if there was an easy way to explain away what we believe. But I am at a loss to understand how anything Russ or I have posted in this thread has given you the impression that we go sinning 'when we feel like it'.
You are right, bigotry does work both ways. However I think in this case, for being so determined to see hypocrisy where there plainly is none, it's you that's the bigot.
Atomic22
03-10-2003, 19:24
I know that accusing Christians of hypocrisy is a fun pastime - you'd just love it if there was an easy way to explain away what we believe. But I am at a loss to understand how anything Russ or I have posted in this thread has given you the impression that we go sinning 'when we feel like it'.
You are right, bigotry does work both ways. However I think in this case, for being so determined to see hypocrisy where there plainly is none, it's you that's the bigot.
you have just proved yourself towny by assuming that because i said your views were hypocritical and bigoted that i am not a practising christian when you know nothing about me, just because i see you as a hypocrite does not mean i am having a go at christians and you really need to look with better eyes than the ones you have that only let you see the blinkered paranoid view that everyone is out to get you or put you down when the intention was never there in the first place.
Incog puts her hands over her eyes and wonders if any arg...discussion on religion can ever be civilised.
I'm an athiest.However I would never diss someone because they have a faith or religion.Please lets all just accept each other's different religions,faiths and whatever and just get over it.
Incog. :)
you have just proved yourself towny by assuming that because i said your views were hypocritical and bigoted that i am not a practising christian when you know nothing about me, just because i see you as a hypocrite does not mean i am having a go at christians and you really need to look with better eyes than the ones you have that only let you see the blinkered paranoid view that everyone is out to get you or put you down when the intention was never there in the first place.
So are you a practising Christian? Like Russ and I have said, we try, we make mistakes, we get forgiven, we carry on. We love our Lord and we're not afraid to stand up and say so. What about you?
It's interesting that in that entire sentence above you didn't address even one of the points I thought we were trying to discuss, preferring instead to just have a dig. You suggest there is something wrong with me for 'assuming' you were having a go at me, then not three lines later you confirm that you do indeed think I am a hypocite.
So, could you make up your mind, am I a hypocrite or not? If I am, would you do me the courtesy of explaining why you think so.
Incog puts her hands over her eyes and wonders if any arg...discussion on religion can ever be civilised.
I'm an athiest.However I would never diss someone because they have a faith or religion.Please lets all just accept each other's different religions,faiths and whatever and just get over it.
Incog. :)
Incog, civilised discussion about religious things is possible ... I could reel off a long list of members of this forum with whom I have disagreed yet without coming to verbal blows. I have respect for them and I believe they respect me. There are more people that are civilised than are not. Don't lose heart!
homealone
03-10-2003, 23:02
Incog, civilised discussion about religious things is possible ... I could reel off a long list of members of this forum with whom I have disagreed yet without coming to verbal blows. I have respect for them and I believe they respect me. There are more people that are civilised than are not. Don't lose heart!
that struck a chord with me towny, I, for one, respect that you are objective in the post you are replying to. You do try to discuss the issue, without labelling the poster.
- and you never impose your view, just introduce it - nice one!:)
Incog, civilised discussion about religious things is possible ... I could reel off a long list of members of this forum with whom I have disagreed yet without coming to verbal blows. I have respect for them and I believe they respect me. There are more people that are civilised than are not. Don't lose heart!
Really?You think so.It's not what I've observed about the various postings about religion and christianity in recent days.
I thought the multi-ethnic teaching of religion was supposed to engender harmony as well as understanding but I've not been heartened by any indications that this is the case.
Mind the hardest and deepest squab...errr discussions about religion do seem to be between differing branches of the Christian faiths.Or maybe any discussion about the Hindu,Sikh and Muslim faiths might be seen as being possibly racist and the thought of the ensuing row err...sorry,discussion might be explosive.
But you are right,there are civilised folk who can discuss religion in a positive manner.However not many seem to take part in the religious discussions here,which do seem to have become jeering sessions lately.
Incog who got the RE prize when she left school. :)
We did have a rather good conversation about islam once, I think the problem was not many members are muslim or know much about islam, so not as much could be said.
We did have a rather good conversation about islam once, I think the problem was not many members are muslim or know much about islam, so not as much could be said.
this might be off topic but its is about religion islam too
Former world snooker champion Ronnie O'Sullivan has become the latest in a long line of sportsmen and celebrities to convert to the fastest-growing religion
The 27-year-old, whose career has been blighted by drink and depression, was introduced to Islam by former world featherweight boxing champion Naseem Hamed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3155784.stm
it also mentions that islam indeed has a growing following in the uk
this might be off topic but its is about religion islam too
Former world snooker champion Ronnie O'Sullivan has become the latest in a long line of sportsmen and celebrities to convert to the fastest-growing religion
it also mentions that islam indeed has a growing following in the uk
You know, I'm sure the JW's claimed theirs was the fastest growing religion :D
Anyway, hope it helps him get his life in order.
Really?You think so.It's not what I've observed about the various postings about religion and christianity in recent days.
I thought the multi-ethnic teaching of religion was supposed to engender harmony as well as understanding but I've not been heartened by any indications that this is the case.
Mind the hardest and deepest squab...errr discussions about religion do seem to be between differing branches of the Christian faiths.Or maybe any discussion about the Hindu,Sikh and Muslim faiths might be seen as being possibly racist and the thought of the ensuing row err...sorry,discussion might be explosive.
But you are right,there are civilised folk who can discuss religion in a positive manner.However not many seem to take part in the religious discussions here,which do seem to have become jeering sessions lately.
Incog who got the RE prize when she left school. :)
I really do think so! You're right, we have had a few heated days recently, but that hasn't been the general pattern of discussion, certainly not as far as I've been aware for the year or so that I've been a member of nthw.com/.co.uk. I would prefer to put our recent squabbling down to a series of misunderstandings, bad days and rare flares of temper. I see no reason for it to become the norm - not least because it contravenes the forum rules!
I can honestly say that I think none the worse of any member of this forum as a result. If I have ever got into a bind with anyone in the forum (whether on a religious topic or other) I've talked it through with them on PM. We don't always agree at the end of the day but I don't leave it bearing a grudge and I do not believe they have either.
Faith is a very deeply held thing so it's natural that passions are aroused when mutually-exclusive truth claims clash. As long as all we look for is understanding and respect, and don't try to stray into forcing someone to believe something else, or try to synthesize everyone's belief into a homogenous theory of everything (that satisfies no-one), there's no reason for things to get ugly.
this might be off topic but its is about religion islam too
Former world snooker champion Ronnie O'Sullivan has become the latest in a long line of sportsmen and celebrities to convert to the fastest-growing religion
The answer to this is demographics, not popularity. While there have been a few conversions to Islam by westerners - Cat Stevens and Ronnie O'Sullivan being high-profile examples - the true reason for the growth of Islam is the high birth rate in islamic countries, and in Muslim communities in the UK and other western countries.
The Bible is still the world's best-selling book! ;) :D
Well, you completely misunderstood what I said. At no point have I said, or even implied, that I would never have married a non-Christian because she was different to me, or not as good as me. What I actually said (discussing my wife) was:
And on the subject of temptation, or breaking commandments, I said:
I know that accusing Christians of hypocrisy is a fun pastime - you'd just love it if there was an easy way to explain away what we believe. But I am at a loss to understand how anything Russ or I have posted in this thread has given you the impression that we go sinning 'when we feel like it'.
You are right, bigotry does work both ways. However I think in this case, for being so determined to see hypocrisy where there plainly is none, it's you that's the bigot.
I know the reply wasn't aimed in my direction but I dont think it's a case of accusing Christians of hypocrisy at all, and the last thing I want is for this to get into a big argument and get closed. My understanding of the bible is very limited but when I have put a point across to someone who is religious they have on many occassions quoted something from the bible that is totally opposite to my understanding.
A good example was yesterday when I quoted to the religious person that I started this thread about. I said "serial offenders should be given corporal punishment from a young age because they will re-offend if they are not dealt with and shown the error of their ways".
I then followed this up by saying "I guess you disagree with this view because the bible says everyone should be given another chance and we should turn the other cheek". (Or words to that effect)
The person then turned around and says, "No, the bible says save the stick and spoil the child" that is just an example that appears like hypocrisy to non -religious people because the bible contains many different views and christians appear to choose the one they want to suit their mood/situation.
I think if things were a little more black and white in the bible, I would be able to understand even though I am not a believer. :cool:
I know the reply wasn't aimed in my direction but I dont think it's a case of accusing Christians of hypocrisy at all, and the last thing I want is for this to get into a big argument and get closed. My understanding of the bible is very limited but when I have put a point across to someone who is religious they have on many occassions quoted something from the bible that is totally opposite to my understanding.
A good example was yesterday when I quoted to the religious person that I started this thread about. I said "serial offenders should be given corporal punishment from a young age because they will re-offend if they are not dealt with and shown the error of their ways".
I then followed this up by saying "I guess you disagree with this view because the bible says everyone should be given another chance and we should turn the other cheek". (Or words to that effect)
The person then turned around and says, "No, the bible says save the stick and spoil the child" that is just an example that appears like hypocrisy to non -religious people because the bible contains many different views and christians appear to choose the one they want to suit their mood/situation.
I think if things were a little more black and white in the bible, I would be able to understand even though I am not a believer. :cool:
Don't worry, I don't want the thread closed either - and I know most people on the boards here don't go round routinely accusing Christians of being hypocrites just for the fun of it.
Without wanting to stray compleeeetly off topic (if we haven't already ;) ), Christians tend to say the reason the Bible is so complex is to make sure you read the whole of it ... important teaching about various Christian beliefs is scattered throughout the Bible, so you can't read about one doctrine without reading about one or two others at the same time. So if you read the whole thing, hopefully you learn God's full teaching, not just the bits of it that interest you.
On the specific example of corporal punishment...
The Bible is very clear that 'vengeance' or 'revenge' is God's job ... no matter who has done what to who, repayment for deeds done comes on judgement day and is God's responsibility. This is why I am anti-capital punishment. It serves no function except as state-sponsored revenge on the offender. Now, corporal punishment is different. If administered correctly it is not 'revenge' meted out in anger; it is discipline and correction meted out in love and concern for the future conduct of the offender. Any punishment handed down to an offender must satisfy these requirements in God's eyes; if they do not, it becomes vengeance which is trying to do God's job for him, or if no punishment is administered the offender learns nothing and is 'spoiled', to borrow the Bible's term.
BTW, I don't claim to be an expert - I've been a Bible-reading Christian for 13 years but I find the more I learn, the more questions I have... finding out is very satisfying though. :)
Atomic22
04-10-2003, 19:30
towny its just your "me and russ are holier than thou" attitude that annoys me and the way you believe only people that are as pious as you are real christians
This, ultimately, is why when considering something as serious as marriage I can't see how a relationship between a committed Christian and someone of another (or no particular) faith could work.
how do you know it wouldnt? thats damning half the world for not being as holy as you believe you are
i just dont like the presumptions you seem to be able to make about people you know nothing about , ie with the joke about escapees possible p0rn stash you presumed it was him that was the unbeliever and not his girlfriend before he even had chance to own up to it being him
lets drop this now as i have lost the will to carry on with this thread and i will not be posting in it again as i wouldnt want it to turn into anything other than banter :shrug:
so till the next debate :Peaceman:
towny its just your "me and russ are holier than thou" attitude that annoys me and the way you believe only people that are as pious as you are real christians
That's not what Towny has said or meant.
towny its just your "me and russ are holier than thou" attitude that annoys me and the way you believe only people that are as pious as you are real christians
how do you know it wouldnt? thats damning half the world for not being as holy as you believe you are
i just dont like the presumptions you seem to be able to make about people you know nothing about , ie with the joke about escapees possible p0rn stash you presumed it was him that was the unbeliever and not his girlfriend before he even had chance to own up to it being him
lets drop this now as i have lost the will to carry on with this thread and i will not be posting in it again as i wouldnt want it to turn into anything other than banter :shrug:
so till the next debate :Peaceman:
OK ... :Peaceman: ... I still think you're misunderstanding me, and I certainly don't know how you concluded what you did based on what I said, but you're right, we don't want any more flaming in this forum. I'll resist the urge for a quote-by-quote reply .... nuff said. :)
Atomic22
04-10-2003, 20:14
OK ... :Peaceman: ... I still think you're misunderstanding me, and I certainly don't know how you concluded what you did based on what I said, but you're right, we don't want any more flaming in this forum. I'll resist the urge for a quote-by-quote reply .... nuff said. :)
:) ok me too , it would be a sad world if we all had the same views on everything , and it would mean we would have nothing to debate in these forums....
NEONKNIGHT
09-10-2003, 00:20
Reading through the thread, there's some good/bad points for whatever you believe in. I personally believe in God (I'm Roman Catholic by the way), and there's just one sentence that sum's everything up for me, whether you believe in God or not and that is 'Love One Another'. If we could all do that, just think of what a wonderful world we could all share and enjoy together.
escapee it really depends on if either of the persons are going to impose there views if they have differing views on religion you could be in for a interesting argument :D
but if both of them can live with each others views and let each other do as they please regarding religion and not force any views on each other it should work
The problem is that if you are going to be a "proper" Christian (for eg) you can't not impose your views on the other person. The only way to do this is to compromise your faith and make up your own rules. Unfortunately Christianity doesn't really cater for Pick n Mix beliefs. Sure, you can choose to ignore them but are you really adhering to the faith then?
Kronas, the above sounds noble and courteous but rules is rules. Christianity is based on absolute Truth and not a bit of this and a bit of that inorder to fit into today's society.
May I wish those to whom this is addressed
EID MUBARAK
Thank you
thank you very much to the only person to have the knowledge and indeed broke 'out of the box' to comment like this :tu:
thank you very much to the only person to have the knowledge and indeed broke 'out of the box' to comment like this :tu:
I had to laugh when I went shopping a couple of days ago.
Two women were behind the desk, one mentioned she'd not had alcohol for nearly a month, her friend asked why, and she replied "ramadam" :rofl:
So she'll drink the rest of the time...
The problem is that if you are going to be a "proper" Christian (for eg) you can't not impose your views on the other person. The only way to do this is to compromise your faith and make up your own rules. Unfortunately Christianity doesn't really cater for Pick n Mix beliefs. Sure, you can choose to ignore them but are you really adhering to the faith then?
ive just had the wonderful experiance of meeting some new freinds over the past few months i got to know them the inevitible question was 'popped' to me
are you religious ?
i said im absolutely not to the shock and dismay of everybody in the room i got the whole 3rd degree your family members are blah blah you will go to hell blah blah
ofcourse i made my feelings perfectly clear you DO NOT talk to me about religion people on this forum know what i think about religion
ive had 4 occasions where ive had a 'discussion' with these people and i had a long chat with them and there beliefs i even argued for womens rights which they so seem to neglect
on the 4th occasion i lost my patience and went over from where i was sat and in a threatening manner pointed to the person making obscene comments to 'shut it' and do not talk to me about religion do i make obscene comments about your religion NO
if i did i think they would have burned me alive and im being serious needless to say i hardly see them anymore because (A they treat me diffarently (b they just wont stop talking to me about religion
Kronas, the above sounds noble and courteous but rules is rules. Christianity is based on absolute Truth and not a bit of this and a bit of that inorder to fit into today's society.
religious people dont have one thing thats tolerance to be able to tolerate a differing view..... a relationship can work but a 'love relationship' needs to be strong and have a mutual respect for each others view on religion
I had to laugh when I went shopping a couple of days ago.
Two women were behind the desk, one mentioned she'd not had alcohol for nearly a month, her friend asked why, and she replied "ramadam" :rofl:
So she'll drink the rest of the time...
you cannot be a true muslim if you drink alchol its forbidden its her choice
Florence
26-11-2003, 01:39
you cannot be a true muslim if you drink alchol its forbidden its her choice
They follow their strict religion rules in their own country as the penalty for not is death. Here they say they are following their religion but still drink. :shrug:
They follow their strict religion rules in their own country as the penalty for not is death. Here they say they are following their religion but still drink. :shrug:
no not everyone..... i have been to clubs and pubs and i have seen few black(muslim) people who drink yes there are a few that do
as for the death penalty its dependant on the culture/country
I just felt it was interesting that she would go to the effort of ramadam but has no problem drinking the rest of the time.
One of the major advantages of Islam from a religion point of view is that there isn't an organisation like the church.
Yes, you have Imams but they are not all powerful, Islam seems to me to be more personal, a direct link between the follower and Allah, there is no need for a middleman.
Consiquently, you don't have people popping up trying to organise everyone to follow it in the same way as they do, so the religion doesn't fracture like christianity has.
The down side of this is the religious culture is stronger and therefore has more importance in day to day living, it's still a way of life rather than a one day only religion, and as such restricts development into areas where christianity (being one of those one day a week religions to the general populace) hasn't.
I just felt it was interesting that she would go to the effort of ramadam but has no problem drinking the rest of the time.
some are not 'in to it' as much......
One of the major advantages of Islam from a religion point of view is that there isn't an organisation like the church.
i would say thats right
Yes, you have Imams but they are not all powerful, Islam seems to me to be more personal, a direct link between the follower and Allah, there is no need for a middleman.
Consiquently, you don't have people popping up trying to organise everyone to follow it in the same way as they do, so the religion doesn't fracture like christianity has.
The down side of this is the religious culture is stronger and therefore has more importance in day to day living, it's still a way of life rather than a one day only religion, and as such restricts development into areas where christianity (being one of those one day a week religions to the general populace) hasn't.
it still does not stop the ignorance and opression i have witnessed by muslims
i think ill stop there before i go off on one :disturbd:
it still does not stop the ignorance and opression i have witnessed by muslims
i think ill stop there before i go off on one :disturbd:
That's what I mean, with the splintering of christianity, you have lots of groups despirate to keep followers, so will bend and flex and move with the times.
With a religion such as Islam, you have Islam and that's it (ok there's a couple of varients but not the hundreds christianity has), you don't have a church leader worrying that if he doesn't have any followers for his take on their religion he'll not get the prize at the end.
The down side of that as you say, is you get ignorance and opression, the religion doesn't move with the times.
As I said, it's more a way of life than a one day a week religion, and that's fine if there's no reason to live any other way, but in today's world there are other ways to live, and if the religion doesn't change, you get a conflict with how the people want to live and how the religion tells them to live
Hi all,
I just wondered what opinions you guys/gals have on relaionships involving two people that have different views when it comes to religion?
Does anyone think a relationship will work involving one party who is a regular church attendee and the other party who last went to church when forced to by the school for the harvest festival around 25 years ago!
Will it work ?
Now the thread has been brought to light again, I just wanted to tell the religious people that said it would not work that they were wrong.
In fact things are flourishing. :smokin:
Now the thread has been brought to light again, I just wanted to tell the religious people that said it would not work that they were wrong.
In fact things are flourishing. :smokin:
Fantastic :)
How do you two deal with the religion topic?
Is it discussed or something kept to each other?
ofcourse i made my feelings perfectly clear you DO NOT talk to me about religion people on this forum know what i think about religion
religious people dont have one thing thats tolerance to be able to tolerate a differing view..... a relationship can work but a 'love relationship' needs to be strong and have a mutual respect for each others view on religion
I'm sorry Kronas but I'm not letting you get away with that.
You tell us not to talk about religion to you when it is you who often start threads about aspects of religion that you disagree about (one example out of many is the one about Bush and his beliefs). Double standards, hypocrisy, all the things us Christians are supposed to display? I'm sorry Kronas but that's you in this case.
And we "don't tolerate a different view". Oh really, so I assume that's aimed at myself, Towny, Bexy, Salu and other Christians on this board? You know, those who constantly tolerate attacks from certain (not all I hasten to add) people who are full of opinions but little or no knowledge of the Bible, prefering to listen to what "that bloke down the pub" says is written in it?
Seems like sweeping statements and generalisations are okay as long as they're aimed at us "Bible-bashers" :rolleyes:
Fantastic :)
How do you two deal with the religion topic?
Is it discussed or something kept to each other?
We dont really tend to discuss it that much, If I say something about religion ie: quote something that I know from the bible she quotes something from the bible that says exactly the opposite.
She has been missing Church a lot recently because some of the people in he church would dissaprove of her being involved with someone who is non religious.
As has been hinted at elsewhere, the problem seems to be that people treat a "christian" viewpoint as personal opinion.
Although it's a viewpoint or belief system that is subscribed to by individuals, it is NOT purely a "difference of opinion".
The bible is the problem, not the person.
If you want your questions about christianity (not religion) answered.. you can get an idea from christians themselves.. but the ultimate source of information is the bible itself.
Back on topic:
You will find that the biblical viewpoint on relationships (marriage and pre-marital) is that a christian should definately not go out or be intimately involved with a non-christian, simple as that.
Yes, there are some sections in the bible that are open to interpretation, BUT, they are always consistent with the fundamental teachings (doctrines).
If there is inconsistency in your own thinking (as a christian) then you have to examine yourself to work out why you are reaching the wrong conclusions.. because the infallibility of the bible once denied will lead you away from biblical understanding and into self-centered belief systems.
The biblical world is one of black and white.. christian and non-christian, for God and against God.
If anyone wants some direct biblical quotes I can give them.. but I thought I'd just throw this up for discussion.
The biblical world is one of black and white.. christian and non-christian, for God and against God.
If anyone wants some direct biblical quotes I can give them.. but I thought I'd just throw this up for discussion.
I disagree with the black and white statement :eek:
There are believers, non-believers and devil worshippers, are the believers suggesting that I am classed the same as a a devil worshipper just because I have different views? What a narrow minded attitude if that's the case.
like I said.. don't take my word for it.. read the book.. and decide for yourself ;)
I disagree with the black and white statement :eek:
i hope you're not trying to imply some kind of racist spin there... the term i used is a common one and is used in relation to how you look at any issue.. is it "black and white" or shades of grey.
like I said.. don't take my word for it.. read the book.. and decide for yourself ;)
I wasn't having a go at you at all, but reading the book will not help me to understand what believers really feel about someone like myself who does not believe.
I am happy for them to worship/believe in father christmas and would not persecute them for such a thing, but I wonder how they feel about me?
father christmas? no idea what thats about.. anyway,
What we (christians) think about you is irrelevant surely? ..
If there is a God who is all powerful, all knowing, created you and is owed your obedience.. His opinion of you would carry more weight wouldn't it?
I wasn't having a go at you at all, but reading the book will not help me to understand what believers really feel about someone like myself who does not believe.
I am happy for them to worship/believe in father christmas and would not persecute them for such a thing, but I wonder how they feel about me?
The 'book' tells Christians to love those that don't know God....with a passion and to tell them the "Good News" of what Jesus has done for them. It's people that get things wrong, who castigate and hate. Just like muslim people and jewish people and atheistst....It's NOT God or the bible or the faith..
This draws us back to the "love the sinner not the sin" statement that says love and honour the person who does not know otherwise BUT do not compromise the faith which is pretty clear.
Satanists still believe god exists, the same as god worshipers believe the devil exists.
The only difference is satanists (real ones, not your marylin manson wannabes) go through life enjoying themselves and some would say living life to the full.
Satanists still believe god exists, the same as god worshipers believe the devil exists.
The only difference is satanists (real ones, not your marylin manson wannabes) go through life enjoying themselves and some would say living life to the full.
exactly right.. but it's the life AFTER this one that lasts forever.. so even if people spend this one "enjoying themselves" or living it "to the full" .. what ultimate good does it do them?
exactly right.. but it's the life AFTER this one that lasts forever.. so even if people spend this one "enjoying themselves" or living it "to the full" .. what ultimate good does it do them?
Well I think they'd pretty much prefer to have 80ish years of fun, living the way they choose, than living for eternity in a way that god wants and they don't.
So with that in mind, it does them a lot of good :)
PS wish the reputation system wasn't anonymous, got a rather nice comment just now :D
Well I think they'd pretty much prefer to have 80ish years of fun, living the way they choose, than living for eternity in a way that god wants and they don't.
So with that in mind, it does them a lot of good :)
Interesting comment, are you saying God wants these people to go to hell?
If that is the case, sending His Son to die was a waste of time then..
Jesus died for sinners, like me and everyone else on this planet.
On this forum, there are a group of people referred to privately by some of us in PMs as "The God Squad". Without naming any of them, I assume enough members will recognise who I mean. Have a look at their posts, notice all the "WTF" entries. all the filtered profanities. Look at the talk of their promiscuity, illegitimate children and boasting about excessive drinking.
Where do I start? :p ..
Call christian forum members "The God Squad" fine.. no problem with that.
Seeing as you quoted me in your post I can only assume that those comments were aimed in my direction?
If you HAD searched MY forum posts you find no mention of "WTF", filtered profanities, promiscuity, illegitamate children or boasts of drunkeness.
It just goes to show that you've already lumped every "christian" or "religously minded" person on this forum together.
I can't claim to have never done some of those things.. in fact I've done plenty in my life i'm not proud of.. but to call the christians here hypocrites on that basis is offensive.
What a wonderful advert for bigotry
On this forum, there are a group of people referred to privately by some of us in PMs as "The God Squad". Without naming any of them, I assume enough members will recognise who I mean.
Well my conscience is clear because I have never referred to anyone in a PM or in open forum like that, I just think everyones views should be treated with respect and no-one should think they are better than the next person just because they have different beliefs.
I just didnt want that comment making people think that I have been sending PM's about believers! I have nothing against believers as I would hope they have nothing against me. But things do not sound that equal to me.
don't worry escapee :) .. i doubt anyone would have made that assumption about you .. especially based on your previous posts.
On this forum, there are a group of people referred to privately by some of us in PMs as "The God Squad". Without naming any of them, I assume enough members will recognise who I mean. Have a look at their posts, notice all the "WTF" entries. all the filtered profanities. Look at the talk of their promiscuity, illegitimate children and boasting about excessive drinking.
What wonderful adverts for Christianity.Oooh, there's people talking about us, how exciting, I've never been notorious before!
I'd be interested if you could name some names at this point, and give those who are 'guilty' as charged the chance to answer back.
Personally, I do my best to avoid inappropriate behaviour of all kinds but I'm no angel. I'm quite willing to post an apology on the forum if I've been guilty of any of the above (although I am reasonably confident that I've never fathered an illegitimate child or been promiscuous, and if the profanity filter ever kicks in on one of my posts it's normally because I've felt the need to discus S****horpe for some reason or other). :)
fair enough.. no offence taken :)
Interesting comment, are you saying God wants these people to go to hell?
If that is the case, sending His Son to die was a waste of time then..
Jesus died for sinners, like me and everyone else on this planet.
What god wants doesn't come into it.
That's one of the points of satanism, you live how you like and the responsibility lives with no one but yourself.
It also goes back to the "you can choose to live however you like, but if you don't live how I want you to, you'll die" message from god (cake or death?).
However, if god didn't want them to go to hell, then all he'd have to do is not send them, wouldn't he?
It's not like there's something more powerful than god making him do it is there?
Interesting thought though, some people on here have commented that hell is a metaphor for being seperated from god (a very good description of what I believe the bible means when it talks about hell).
Of course, that would only be hell to christians who want to be with god (think about it), non-christians who have never been in touch with god, or don't want to be in touch with him wouldn't be phased.
PS Towny, I'll get you a cape and mask so you can look notorious ;)
On this forum, there are a group of people referred to privately by some of us in PMs as "The God Squad". Without naming any of them, I assume enough members will recognise who I mean. Have a look at their posts, notice all the "WTF" entries. all the filtered profanities. Look at the talk of their promiscuity, illegitimate children and boasting about excessive drinking.
What wonderful adverts for Christianity.
In defence of one of Kronas's posts -- some of my Muslim friends agree with his stance on the religion. They are devout and would never deny their religion but say that until the mullahs are selected from the training madrassas IN THIS COUNTRY and not brought in from the hill villages of Pakistan etc. then there will be no modernisation of the faith. They cannot discuss this among their own members for fear of retribution.
EDITED. I should have said "SOME OF the God Squad". To state that in this post I do not refer to any post or message by Silver or Escapee.
I actually invite people to refer to me as a member of the God Squad. My sig refers to me as a Bible Basher. I am HONOURED if someone called me a 'Jesus Freak'.
As for the people who do not display Christian-like behaviour - as you've not done any research in to what the Bible says about Christians who do this, I'll not comment other than to say if someone thinks Christians consider themselves to be free from sin and 'better behaved' than 'non-believers' then that would show a high level of ignorance and lack of knowledge.
But then again, when has balanced researched ever been needed by those who chose to attack Christians and their faith?
What god wants doesn't come into it.
That's one of the points of satanism, you live how you like and the responsibility lives with no one but yourself.
why call it "satanism" then?.. what you've descibed above, is humanism..
satanism is anti-god by definition, so why not bring His point of view into it?
It also goes back to the "you can choose to live however you like, but if you don't live how I want you to, you'll die" message from god (cake or death?).
yup.. more or less.. sucks for those that get on the wrong side of God.
Yet He is very clear in the bible.. that we have free will, to do what He wants.. or not.
However, if god didn't want them to go to hell, then all he'd have to do is not send them, wouldn't he?
It's not like there's something more powerful than god making him do it is there?
We're covering a lot of ground today..
God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, as i said in previous posts.
The reason He doesn't just stop it all and make everything perfect right now is because of the free will that He's given us.
He is giving us the oppertunity to do what He wants because we choose to, that is far more valuable to Him.
It's always better to have someone do something because they want to, from our own perspective.. because it shows they care.
Even someone that hates me could do what I want them to if they had no choice or if i controlled them.
Thats what we (christians) find so fascinating about God.. is that He shows us what He's like.
Interesting thought though, some people on here have commented that hell is a metaphor for being seperated from god (a very good description of what I believe the bible means when it talks about hell).
Of course, that would only be hell to christians who want to be with god (think about it), non-christians who have never been in touch with god, or don't want to be in touch with him wouldn't be phased.
Hell is both a real and frightening place according to the bible as well as being seperate from God.
Just because you don't believe in a nail sticking up out of the floor, doesn't mean it won't hurt when you step on it ;) (i hope you get my metaphor there)
<snip>As for the people who do not display Christian-like behaviour - as you've not done any research in to what the Bible says about Christians who do this, I'll not comment other than to say if someone thinks Christians consider themselves to be free from sin and 'better behaved' than 'non-believers' then that would show a high level of ignorance and lack of knowledge.
But then again, when has balanced researched ever been needed by those who chose to attack Christians and their faith?
i raise my hands and admitt to having masked swearing on this forum, said "wtf" and probably commited other things, however Christians are not perfect.......we try and be more christ-like but when all is said and done we are not Christ and will never be so.......
escapee...im glad to hear your relationship is going well, and i think i read that your gf isnt going to church as much because she is getting bad comments for dating a non-christian....this is a problem i have with some churches, they should be embracing her and helping her, not pushing her away
According to 2 born again christians I once had the misfortune of talking to, apparently I'm some kind of heathen for listening to U2 and hell is beckoning ... I was also once dragged into a born again christian (for want of a better description) church, watched people prancing about, shouting, fainting and wailing and decided that if i wanted to make a fool of myself as they were then I could get drunk and streak naked down the Strand Road instead, at least I'd have had fun.
According to 2 born again christians I once had the misfortune of talking to, apparently I'm some kind of heathen for listening to U2 and hell is beckoning ... I was also once dragged into a born again christian (for want of a better description) church, watched people prancing about, shouting, fainting and wailing and decided that if i wanted to make a fool of myself as they were then I could get drunk and streak naked down the Strand Road instead, at least I'd have had fun.
the music u listen to, while it may subconsciously effect you, does not mean you are going to hell.....not accepting Jesus as your saviour does....
as for the church....sounds like you went to a charsmatic evangelical church......(like mine) while they are great fun etc, it isnt everyones way and can be intimidating the first time you attend
Hey, U2 are pretty good! "With or Without you" is an all-time classic.
Yeah we do all the dancing, francing, falling about etc. If that's not what some people are comfortable with then they don't need to go :)
Interesting thought though, some people on here have commented that hell is a metaphor for being seperated from god (a very good description of what I believe the bible means when it talks about hell).
Of course, that would only be hell to christians who want to be with god (think about it), non-christians who have never been in touch with god, or don't want to be in touch with him wouldn't be phased.
PS Towny, I'll get you a cape and mask so you can look notorious ;)
Even if hell was simply separation from God and all the fire and brimstone was mere metaphor, I think it will be a little worse than you suggest for those who go there - before going, they will have stood before God, and seeing as God lives in heaven, they will therefore have had a brief taste of paradise and seen how fantastic it is. So they will know what they are missing. :(
PS - Cool, can it have a mysterious logo and little wings on the sides of the mask like Daredevil or something? :D
Just out of curiosity, back in the era the bible was set, god was pretty overt in his actions, plagues of locusts, burning bushes, miracles here, there and everywhere, what happened? There are plenty of events in the bible that these day's could not be attributed to anything other than a miracle, e.g. the parting of the Red Sea ... was it the crucifixion that put an end to all this wondrous behaviour?
Just out of curiosity, back in the era the bible was set, god was pretty overt in his actions, plagues of locusts, burning bushes, miracles here, there and everywhere, what happened? There are plenty of events in the bible that these day's could not be attributed to anything other than a miracle, e.g. the parting of the Red Sea ... was it the crucifixion that put an end to all this wondrous behaviour?
Miracles still happen. Right now, a friend's daughter who should by now be dead due to oxygen starvation at birth is over a year old and developing with increasing normality. At every stage, doctors have said 'she'll never be able to ... ' and at every stage, she has proved them wrong. Of course, a lot of people are praying for her. :)
On a global scale, the Bible takes major events, some of which are chronicled in other writings, and discusses them from God's point of view as revealed through Prophets. There are not so many people claiming to give God's perspective on wars, famines and the like today - this doesn't mean that there is no Divine perspective or activity, it just means we're not hearing it.
IMO of course. ;)
Miracles still happen. Right now, a friend's daughter who should by now be dead due to oxygen starvation at birth is over a year old and developing with increasing normality. At every stage, doctors have said 'she'll never be able to ... ' and at every stage, she has proved them wrong. Of course, a lot of people are praying for her. :)
On a global scale, the Bible takes major events, some of which are chronicled in other writings, and discusses them from God's point of view as revealed through Prophets. There are not so many people claiming to give God's perspective on wars, famines and the like today - this doesn't mean that there is no Divine perspective or activity, it just means we're not hearing it.
IMO of course. ;)
Scientific explanation .... I'm talking about events that could almost literally only be described as miracles, why do they not happen anymore?
Scientific explanation .... I'm talking about events that could almost literally only be described as miracles, why do they not happen anymore?
There could be a scientific explanation, on the other hand, there might not. You can't discount the possibility that it's a miracle.
There could be a scientific explanation, on the other hand, there might not. You can't discount the possibility that it's a miracle.
Oh for god's sake, just answer the question directly or don't bother, you know what I'm talking about ... in 2000 odd years we've had nothing that's compared to some of the events relayed in the bible, why?
Oh for god's sake, just answer the question directly or don't bother, you know what I'm talking about ... in 2000 odd years we've had nothing that's compared to some of the events relayed in the bible, why?
There are a couple of answers ..
1) The bible is a work of complete fiction
2) Over the years over-zealous interpreters have "spiced" the bible up
3) God who?
It was because up until 2000 years ago people still refused to believe and listen to God's word even thought he sent the miracles. He then sent His son as a last chance and it worked (mostly). From a certain point of view you may be correct in saying that the miracles stopped when Jesus left. However if someone is determined to stay with a scientific frame of mind then there's little we can say or do that will make them see different.
It was because up until 2000 years ago people still refused to believe and listen to God's word even thought he sent the miracles. He then sent His son as a last chance and it worked (mostly). From a certain point of view you may be correct in saying that the miracles stopped when Jesus left. However if someone is determined to stay with a scientific frame of mind then there's little we can say or do that will make them see different.
Thank you...
There were events as I pointed out that could not be given an explanation based on science ... I'm sure God would prefer people to worship him than not believe him in so why not just send one almight miracle, get everyone on his side and everyone can live happily ever after?
Thank you...
There were events as I pointed out that could not be given an explanation based on science ... I'm sure God would prefer people to worship him than not believe him in so why not just send one almight miracle, get everyone on his side and everyone can live happily ever after?
The reasoning behind this not happening (yet) is that He wants use to CHOOSE Him, rather than rely on something He sends, this is the basis of 'faith'. To be honest He could send just about any kind of miracle and there'd still be people trying to explain it away with science (which of course, they are entitled to do.)
Anyway, for more 'miracles', read Revelations to find out what happens after the rapture - there'll be plenty then :)
That's what I mean, with the splintering of christianity, you have lots of groups despirate to keep followers, so will bend and flex and move with the times.
With a religion such as Islam, you have Islam and that's it (ok there's a couple of varients but not the hundreds christianity has), you don't have a church leader worrying that if he doesn't have any followers for his take on their religion he'll not get the prize at the end.
the reason islam does not need to 'bend or flex' is because it works more on the belief system there are set terms like the imams in what you need to do to get to paradise
The down side of that as you say, is you get ignorance and opression, the religion doesn't move with the times.
you are right the religion and atmosphere of muslims has taught them to opress women ill tell you something a women is NOT allowed to have a freindship with a man even it was strictly a freindship i know that relationships often build with women due to the person(s) likeing each other other but i do not think like that im happy to be freindly with anyone who is freindly with me as JUST a freind if the relationship turns in to something much more then so be it
As I said, it's more a way of life than a one day a week religion, and that's fine if there's no reason to live any other way, but in today's world there are other ways to live, and if the religion doesn't change, you get a conflict with how the people want to live and how the religion tells them to live
yes i have conflict with religion it does not move on with the times so the faliure to lure potential members is evident to see
Now the thread has been brought to light again, I just wanted to tell the religious people that said it would not work that they were [QUOTE=Xaccers]wrong.
In fact things are flourishing. :smokin:
told you it would good luck for the future :)
dieselking
26-11-2003, 19:31
Religion is probably a subject u shouldnââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t argue about because those who do believe in god will carry on be3lieving & those (like me) who arenââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t religious in the least probably wonââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t start believing in anything no matter what people say to them,. Arguments about religion just go round & round & round at in the end no one wins & people start to fall out with each other
Anyway, for more 'miracles', read Revelations to find out what happens after the rapture - there'll be plenty then :)
I think not, I don't believe most of whats relayed in it.
Religion is probably a subject u shouldnââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t argue about because those who do believe in god will carry on be3lieving & those (like me) who arenââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t religious in the least probably wonââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t start believing in anything no matter what people say to them,. Arguments about religion just go round & round & round at in the end no one wins & people start to fall out with each other
no-one is arguing, I'm asking questions and people are answering
I think not, I don't believe most of whats relayed in it.
That's up to you. :) I certainly am not in the habit of trying to proactively convert anyone.
no-one is arguing, I'm asking questions and people are answering
And that's the way it should be - much kudos to you for saying that, but there are some on this site who ask question PURELY to try and shoot us down...you really have to pity such attitudes.
Christianity isn't a convincing arguement. It's a faith. It's about trying to follow God's will for your life, loving others and telling them about Jesus' love for YOU.
Nothing I can say will convince you sceptics. You have to listen to the small voice in your heart, hear your conscience and weigh the evidence from the bible.
My role is to point you in the right direction. Although I would hope you would look at me and see something of Jesus in me....I know that I am far from perfect and I get things wrong.
Try praying to God and ask Him to show you what he wants from YOUR life....
You have to listen to the small voice in your heart, hear your conscience and weigh the evidence from the bible.
I wouldn't say they HAVE to...they could CHOOSE to though :D
She has been missing Church a lot recently because some of the people in he church would dissaprove of her being involved with someone who is non religious.
this is some of the intolerance which i have mentioned in my previous quotes people lack it i know i have plenty of it if someone wants to be religious then please do anything as you please but dont preach to me is all i ask
And that's the way it should be - much kudos to you for saying that, but there are some on this site who ask question PURELY to try and shoot us down...you really have to pity such attitudes.
this is exactly what i am trying to do like bifta im asking questions(if needed) putting my experiance and view across im not trying to single anyone out as i will listen to anyone and quote anyone who i want to comment on there views
It was because up until 2000 years ago people still refused to believe and listen to God's word even thought he sent the miracles. He then sent His son as a last chance and it worked (mostly). From a certain point of view you may be correct in saying that the miracles stopped when Jesus left. However if someone is determined to stay with a scientific frame of mind then there's little we can say or do that will make them see different.
if god sent me a sign i would sit up and take notice i would start a thread and absolutely tell everyone that i am sorry etc
as of yet i have had no sign no nothing so if he wanted me to believe he would send me a sign
I'm sorry Kronas but I'm not letting you get away with that.
You tell us not to talk about religion to you when it is you who often start threads about aspects of religion that you disagree about (one example out of many is the one about Bush and his beliefs). Double standards, hypocrisy, all the things us Christians are supposed to display? I'm sorry Kronas but that's you in this case.
no you dont understand im happy to discuss it but its the preaching side of what the people i met were trying to do towards me
as for bush i have pointed how he is influenced by religion in previous threads trying to stop people from having sex abstaining ? :rolleyes:
And we "don't tolerate a different view". Oh really, so I assume that's aimed at myself, Towny, Bexy, Salu and other Christians on this board? You know, those who constantly tolerate attacks from certain (not all I hasten to add) people who are full of opinions but little or no knowledge of the Bible, prefering to listen to what "that bloke down the pub" says is written in it?
no i didnt mean everyone but in my experiance i have found it to be the case
my knowledge of the bible is not from the 'man at the pub' as you put its what i have learned watching programs, in school on here even
Seems like sweeping statements and generalisations are okay as long as they're aimed at us "Bible-bashers" :rolleyes:
again russ you are running on assumptions i just highlighted something which i came across and felt i needed to comment on
who ever gave me a negative rep point does not fully understand where i am coming from is it that hard to understand ???????
no i didnt mean everyone but in my experiance i have found it to be the case
Well please make sure your wording reflects this.
as of yet i have had no sign no nothing so if he wanted me to believe he would send me a sign
And as I've been saying, He wants you to believe of your own free choice, NOT because He 'persuades' you by showing a miracle.
who ever gave me a negative rep point does not fully understand where i am coming from is it that hard to understand ??????
Oh don't take it personally, certain non-believers have been giving certain Christians on here bad rep points just for their beliefs - how childish can you get?
Well please make sure your wording reflects this.
my wording is clear some of what i stated as i pointed out was from the recent experiance that i had with religious people
And as I've been saying, He wants you to believe of your own free choice, NOT because He 'persuades' you by showing a miracle.
yes i did read that but i ask yet i dont get im open to believeing if i felt there was some truth in it
Oh don't take it personally, certain non-believers have been giving certain Christians on here bad rep points just for their beliefs - how childish can you get?
i have rarely handed out negative rep points i may not agree with you russ but giving out a negative point just because someone disagree's with you or has a diffarent view is just plain stupid
i have rarely handed out negative rep points i may not agree with you russ but giving out a negative point just because someone disagree's with you or has a diffarent view is just plain stupid
See? Even Kronas agrees it's a pretty low thing to do - still, some people enjoy being intolerant....
escapee...im glad to hear your relationship is going well, and i think i read that your gf isnt going to church as much because she is getting bad comments for dating a non-christian....this is a problem i have with some churches, they should be embracing her and helping her, not pushing her away
Thanks bexy, I try to encourage her to go along but she says she feels a bit of a hypocryt.
To use her words worshipper on a sunday and whore on a monday. :erm:
Oh for god's sake, just answer the question directly or don't bother, you know what I'm talking about ... in 2000 odd years we've had nothing that's compared to some of the events relayed in the bible, why?
I will always answer questions the way I think they're best answered. If you're implying that I'm avoiding answering you, then I think you ought to go and look up my previous postings on this subject (and just about any other). I am not known on this forum for holding back on what I believe, and in defending what I believe. If my answers annoy you so much, don't ask me. :)
So, what miracles are you talking about that could not possibly have any scientific explanation? I have heard people on TV and radio gamely trying to explain away everything from the destruction of Sodom to the parting of the Red Sea (apparently a tidal wave caused by a massive volcanic eruption, according to one recent theory). A lot of God's work in the Old Testament leads to nations rising and falling, things which still go on today. Perhaps all we are missing now is hearing God's perception of world events.
Essentially, you are saying you see no evidence of huge miracles, I am saying just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they don't happen.
I'm sure God would prefer people to worship him than not believe him in so why not just send one almight miracle, get everyone on his side and everyone can live happily ever after?
How about raising someone from the dead after they'd been in a grave for more than 24 hours? :dozey:
Thanks bexy, I try to encourage her to go along but she says she feels a bit of a hypocryt.
To use her words worshipper on a sunday and whore on a monday. :erm:
not a problem hun.......
does she feel like that? or i she made to feel like that?
I will always answer questions the way I think they're best answered. If you're implying that I'm avoiding answering you, then I think you ought to go and look up my previous postings on this subject (and just about any other). I am not known on this forum for holding back on what I believe, and in defending what I believe. If my answers annoy you so much, don't ask me. :)
So, what miracles are you talking about that could not possibly have any scientific explanation? I have heard people on TV and radio gamely trying to explain away everything from the destruction of Sodom to the parting of the Red Sea (apparently a tidal wave caused by a massive volcanic eruption, according to one recent theory). A lot of God's work in the Old Testament leads to nations rising and falling, things which still go on today. Perhaps all we are missing now is hearing God's perception of world events.
Essentially, you are saying you see no evidence of huge miracles, I am saying just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they don't happen.
How about raising someone from the dead after they'd been in a grave for more than 24 hours? :dozey:
My views are probably a bit strange when it comes to the bible!
I think IMHO that many of the stories were like a message going around the room that gets added to ie: John won £10 on the lottery and by the time it goes all the way around, John Won £10000 on the lottery.
I know I will probably get flamed for that comment, but perhaps Jesus did exist and was a very clever guy in those days (perhaps time travel) and he did some very clever things that got blown out of all proportion.
I think the big issue for a non-believer like myself is that I am a rational person who will not accept anything on face value until I can prove it.
believers say they can prove it to themselves, and often that makes them look like they are making excuses. I think we must all realise that no-on is ever going to convert someone like me because it would take a real big event to convince me about such matters. I am sorry to say that I only deal in facts and that statement should not mean believers should flame me or treat me any different in my opinion.
not a problem hun.......
does she feel like that? or i she made to feel like that?
First can I say sorry to Towny for my post above, I added my comments in the middle of his and now it looks like he said it! they will have you banned from church for those comments Towny.
I couldn't edit the post.
bexy, she feels that people in church will think of her that way.
she has allready had a bit of flak from one member in church who found out she had a boyfriend, the first question was "is he White?" and then "is he a christian and does he go to church" I make a lighthearted joke about it and ask if they have warned her about me being the white devil.
The real hypocrytical bit is the guy who asked if I was white, he is blsck and only goes out with white women that he picks up. he doesn't pick them up from church either.
<snippity snip>bexy, she feels that people in church will think of her that way.
she has allready had a bit of flak from one member in church who found out she had a boyfriend, the first question was "is he White?" and then "is he a christian and does he go to church" I make a lighthearted joke about it and ask if they have warned her about me being the white devil.
The real hypocrytical bit is the guy who asked if I was white, he is blsck and only goes out with white women that he picks up. he doesn't pick them up from church either.
well it is a sad case when anyone judges anyone else in this way....
i think it is disgraceful to ask whether someone is suitable based on either their skin colour or their religion.....
unfortunately some christians do have a tendency to be holier than thou, especially when it comes to preaching at people about how they should live their life, but rest assured hun, we aren't all like that.....
as i said beforehand i have dated both non-christian and christian........and i have had people at church judge me, and it hurt, however i realised that they were the ones with the problem and not me....its the old sort out the plank in your eye before sorting out the speck in someone elses.....(or some such thought)
Fixed your post Escapee. If its not right PM me. :)
Fixed your post Escapee. If its not right PM me. :)
Thanks thats fine, I must of really made a mess because I didnt even have an edit button to put it right. :dunce:
My views are probably a bit strange when it comes to the bible!
I think IMHO that many of the stories were like a message going around the room that gets added to ie: John won £10 on the lottery and by the time it goes all the way around, John Won £10000 on the lottery.
I know I will probably get flamed for that comment, but perhaps Jesus did exist and was a very clever guy in those days (perhaps time travel) and he did some very clever things that got blown out of all proportion.
I think the big issue for a non-believer like myself is that I am a rational person who will not accept anything on face value until I can prove it.
believers say they can prove it to themselves, and often that makes them look like they are making excuses. I think we must all realise that no-on is ever going to convert someone like me because it would take a real big event to convince me about such matters. I am sorry to say that I only deal in facts and that statement should not mean believers should flame me or treat me any different in my opinion.
Fair comment but would you be willing to die for what you'd seen such as the apostles did? They saw what they saw and heard what they heard, as opposed to chinese whispers. I'll tell you if I was going to be tortured of killed for what I believe I'd had to be pretty certain of what I had in my mind!
thing is you cannot criticise Israel or the jews now (not that I am doing so now)
if you do - you get accused of being anti-semitic and pro terrorist
which is simply not the case
fact is:
as long as the 'we are the chosen people' phrase remains in their mandate (and anyone dreaming up a religion would understandable have this clause built into their mandate) what hope is there for any sort of equality of anything
[Like life, I guess. You're good, kid, but as long as I'm around you're second best. You might as well learn to live with it.]
Fair comment but would you be willing to die for what you'd seen such as the apostles did? They saw what they saw and heard what they heard, as opposed to chinese whispers. I'll tell you if I was going to be tortured of killed for what I believe I'd had to be pretty certain of what I had in my mind!
that is a fair point russ....i wonder (and this isnt aimed at anyone or meant to question anyone) how many people would be willing to die for their beliefs
Evening KA, not seen you on here for a few days :)
Fair comment but would you be willing to die for what you'd seen such as the apostles did? They saw what they saw and heard what they heard, as opposed to chinese whispers. I'll tell you if I was going to be tortured of killed for what I believe I'd had to be pretty certain of what I had in my mind!
We could go around in circles though Russ with you just getting very annoyed at my views and comments.
I myself have no proof that the apostles died for their beliefs or actually existed. Ging along the routes of what peachy says do other religions aknowledge the apostles, and if not they must be no better than a non believer like me.
If we were all the same what a boring place it would be to live! :p
My views are probably a bit strange when it comes to the bible!
I think IMHO that many of the stories were like a message going around the room that gets added to ie: John won £10 on the lottery and by the time it goes all the way around, John Won £10000 on the lottery.
I know I will probably get flamed for that comment, but perhaps Jesus did exist and was a very clever guy in those days (perhaps time travel) and he did some very clever things that got blown out of all proportion.
I think the big issue for a non-believer like myself is that I am a rational person who will not accept anything on face value until I can prove it.
believers say they can prove it to themselves, and often that makes them look like they are making excuses. I think we must all realise that no-on is ever going to convert someone like me because it would take a real big event to convince me about such matters. I am sorry to say that I only deal in facts and that statement should not mean believers should flame me or treat me any different in my opinion.
I'm not going to flame you for disagreeing with me! That would be just silly. All I can say about Jesus and his life is that other non-Biblical documents from the time record that people believed he did miracles, and very ancient scrolls exist that prove the Bible has not gradually changed over the last 2,000 years. What we have today is the same as what was written. Whether you believe that what was written is true is another matter!
Indeed there's no proof....or is there? If other diaries were written within a hundred years or so of it all happening and reported stories of Jesus and what he did, would that help? Especially if the diaries and books had no axe to grind or interest in God/religion/worship etc?
Its all getting too deep for me.
Its all getting too deep for me.
Don't worry, it got too deep for me years ago :D
Don't worry, it got too deep for me years ago :D
not with me it didn't
its basically a shizophrenic view of the world
ie
we are all equal, but some of us are sort of 'ghia' versions of humans it seems, and as long as you are prepared to pay the finance and tithes
you will be guaranteed a place in 'heaven'
[Like life, I guess. You're good, kid, but as long as I'm around you're second best. You might as well learn to live with it.]
How about raising someone from the dead after they'd been in a grave for more than 24 hours? :dozey:
Scientific explanation again ... anyway Russ has answered my question more than satisfactorily so feel free to contain yourself.
So .. another question, I know I'm taking this topic off track a bit but I'm interested in (most) people's interpretations, can someone please explain to me a laymans terms what the "rapture" is all about? Imagine I'm a godless heathen (!) and explain it simply for me, ta.
So .. another question, I know I'm taking this topic off track a bit but I'm interested in (most) people's interpretations, can someone please explain to me a laymans terms what the "rapture" is all about? Imagine I'm a godless heathen (!) and explain it simply for me, ta.
The idea is that the world is going completely to pot, and the only thing keeping it from being 100% bad is Christians who are (supposed to be) a restraining influence on the devil's activities.
The end of the world is to be preceded by a short period of time in which the devil is given more or less free reign to cause absolute havoc, in effect acting as God's agent for judgement on a rotten world. However for the devil to be able to do so much evil, the restraining factor (Christians) have to be removed from the equation. Hence, (so this particular interpretation of end-times prophecies goes), seven years before Armaggeddon, all dead Christians are physically resurrected into immortal, perfect bodies and meet Jesus 'in the air'; seconds later, all living Christians disappear from Earth, have their bodies similarly converted and also meet Jesus in the air. Chaos then ensues on Earth.
That's it in a nutshell, anyway.
Not wanting to make light of it or anything, but, for example I could be in the pub talking to somebody one minute and the next he'd just dissapear in front of my very eyes?
So .. another question, I know I'm taking this topic off track a bit but I'm interested in (most) people's interpretations, can someone please explain to me a laymans terms what the "rapture" is all about? Imagine I'm a godless heathen (!) and explain it simply for me, ta.
what it it is your religious bods final step
into the maelstrom of insanity
that's what it is
..there I've said it
[Like life, I guess. You're good, kid, but as long as I'm around you're second best. You might as well learn to live with it.]
what it it is your religious bods final step
into the maelstrom of insanity
that's what it is
..there I've said it
I don't suppose there's any danger of you ruining a different thread is there and letting others answer?
Of course they might, Bifta, I've done it many times myself. After all, I am the traveller from K-PAX.
:rofl: I still haven't seen that ...
Bifta - yes, according to the Bible that's exactly what will happen - it uses phrases like 'two will be working in the field, one will be taken and the other will be left', and 'in the twinkling of an eye'.
:rofl: I still haven't seen that ...
Bifta - yes, according to the Bible that's exactly what will happen - it uses phrases like 'two will be working in the field, one will be taken and the other will be left', and 'in the twinkling of an eye'.
O.k. so ... I'll make sure I have a spare christian with me at all times .. as soon as he goes poof, I'll be a-repenting! But seriously though ... that'd be some miracle, probably enough to turn a huge percentage of the population to christianity ... or will it be too late?
dieselking
27-11-2003, 00:09
Of course they might, Bifta, I've done it many times myself. After all, I am the traveller from K-PAX.
HA HA HA Very funny, I've seen that film, it's very good
:LOL: :LOL:
I think you all need to go read the Book of Hiram and put this religous tripe into perspective
O.k. so ... I'll make sure I have a spare christian with me at all times .. as soon as he goes poof, I'll be a-repenting! But seriously though ... that'd be some miracle, probably enough to turn a huge percentage of the population to christianity ... or will it be too late?
During Earth's last few years, the book of Revelation says, the shock of all those people vanishing will cause a large number of people who were sceptical before to re-think and become Christians. However an even larger number of people will believe the lies of an emerging world leader that the vanished Christians have suffered some kind of divine judgement and that the world is better off without them. This emerging leader is commonly known as The Antichrist.
Christian philosophers have a range of views on exactly how all this will pan out. Some say the Rapture happens at the start of the final seven years; some say it happens after 3 and a half years of the final seven, some say it happens at the end of the seven years just before the world ends anyway and a few don't believe it will happen at all. This last option is hardest to understand as the Bible is quite plain on the subject that it is going to happen. The exact timing is more difficult because the book fo Revelation is written in extremely metaphorical language.
I think you all need to go read the Book of Hiram and put this religous tripe into perspective
I don't believe I've had the pleasure of reading that book. Perhaps you could summarise it for us? :)
why call it "satanism" then?.. what you've descibed above, is humanism..
satanism is anti-god by definition, so why not bring His point of view into it?
See that's the normal misconception about satanism, it's all that holywood/catholic rubbish about killing virgins and worshipping the devil.
Why would the devil want people to worship him?
A deity would have to be pretty feeble/insecure to demand worship, or fear the lack of worship (maybe Terry Pratchett is right?)
Satanists feel that lucifer, bringer of light, gave them free choice by talking eve into eating from the tree of knowledge, and also forcing god into giving humans free choice, however god's more underhand than the devil, so added the "cake or death" clause ("you are free to live how I demand, or you die")
They feel although he wasn't able to free the angels, he saw a chance to free the humans, and so took it.
He doesn't want worship (the stereotypical satanist is as hypocritacal as the stereotypical christians, you know the sort, view it as a one day a week religion), all he asks for is we use the gift he gave us, free choice, and the responsibilities that come with it. He wants us to succeed without any intervention, to help prove god wrong.
Humanists strip out the religious overtones of that and acknowledge that what we do is up to us, and down to us.
No one is going to bail us out so we'd better get on and sort our own problems.
During Earth's last few years, the book of Revelation says, the shock of all those people vanishing will cause a large number of people who were sceptical before to re-think and become Christians. However an even larger number of people will believe the lies of an emerging world leader that the vanished Christians have suffered some kind of divine judgement and that the world is better off without them. This emerging leader is commonly known as The Antichrist.
Christian philosophers have a range of views on exactly how all this will pan out. Some say the Rapture happens at the start of the final seven years; some say it happens after 3 and a half years of the final seven, some say it happens at the end of the seven years just before the world ends anyway and a few don't believe it will happen at all. This last option is hardest to understand as the Bible is quite plain on the subject that it is going to happen. The exact timing is more difficult because the book fo Revelation is written in extremely metaphorical language.
ok, fair enough, so, all the christians on the earth dissapear, a proportion of those left suddenly find their faith, what happens to them, do they dissapear too? Or are they left back on earth until they die?
ok, fair enough, so, all the christians on the earth dissapear, a proportion of those left suddenly find their faith, what happens to them, do they dissapear too? Or are they left back on earth until they die?
They stay on earth but are saved. They stay until they either die or until Big J returns.
I think you all need to go read the Book of Hiram and put this religous tripe into perspective
Excuse me but who on earth are you to call my faith 'tripe'?
Do I make such flippant remarks about your beliefs?
I can call yours or anyones faith what I like just as you can call into question my assertions on that faith.
More wars and more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other reason.
For centuries more people have died in the name of religion than any other cause
My belief is simply this.........
Any religion which makes war and takes life is one which should be banned.
Bush claimed his chrisitan beliefs are the foundation for his willingness to fight the terrorists, Fundamentalists claim they kill innocent people with suicide bombs in the name of allah...
Its all crap as far as im concerned....
I can call yours or anyones faith what I like just as you can call into question my assertions on that faith.
More wars and more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other reason.
For centuries more people have died in the name of religion than any other cause
My belief is simply this.........
Any religion which makes war and takes life is one which should be banned.
Bush claimed his chrisitan beliefs are the foundation for his willingness to fight the terrorists, Fundamentalists claim they kill innocent people with suicide bombs in the name of allah...
Its all crap as far as im concerned....
I'm sure someone has pointed it out before but religion has nothing to do with war, religion never killed anyone, religion was never the real cause for a war, it's the person/group declaring war that is responsible, if they choose to make excuses like it's "in the name of religion" then that's up to them, but that doesn't neccesarily make it so.
I may question someone's belief but there is no way I would insult them in that way. I have the right to my beliefs without having them isulted. Yes wars have started in the name of religion and it's attitudes such as yours which certainly do not help. Calling it 'crap' isn't doing much for world peace, is it?
People get beaten up over their soccer teams, do you deride football?
I agree that ANYONE who persecutes or kills in the name of their religion is a problem, fortunately they are in the minority.
They stay on earth but are saved. They stay until they either die or until Big J returns.
Excuse me but who on earth are you to call my faith 'tripe'?
Do I make such flippant remarks about your beliefs?
Oh and does it matter who or what I am?
Does that make my view any less important?
Also a faith isnt yours to own it is something you are entitled to beleive in IE you belong to the faith if you abide by its rules and regulation.
Which I presume you do seen as you advocate it.
I don't really care who or what you are, but when addressing someone's beliefs and faith on here you are to do it respectfully. You don't have to agree with anything I say about Christianity other than respect differing beliefs than your own.
People get beaten up over their soccer teams, do you deride football?
A very good point and looking at it in that perspective along with biftas comments no I wouldnt
The big difference being though "Millions" of people worlwide haven't died in the name of football.
so its not a real world comparison to compare religious wars with football violence is it?
Also,
to put things into perspective.............
I wasnt "calling religions tripe or crap"
I was calling the reasons for the associations that people make with religion.
In that case I apologise but when you say things such as...
Its all crap as far as im concerned....
and
I think you all need to go read the Book of Hiram and put this religous tripe into perspective
..you kind of look as if you are calling it 'crap' and 'tripe'.
In any case, please try to be less offensive to people who's views do not match yours.
Thats why I referenced the book.
There is good and bad in them all and some religions even contradict themselves but i have no wish to delve into that now.
More important is for peopl not to lose sight....
When tracing back the histories of worship it seems our ancesstors all worshiped the same things but under slightly different guises.
Today it is "A god" in various different forms. But strangley enough this has only been since we have been able to travel to other objects in the sky .
Thousands of years ago people worshipped the objects in the sky...
Whilst one race worshiped the sun another worshipped the moon and others the stars and so forth.
Now we have been able to travel to the moon and learn more about it over the thousands of years we have moved on from worshipping it along with the sun.
So you see with relgion and the beliefs system you are only ever led by what you dont know and not what you do.
Christianity was borne from Judaism.
3500 BC was around the time the Groved Ware people existed in scotland who worshipped venus.
No one worships Venus anymore.
In 3000 years time we may have no religion. Who knows?
Thats why I referenced the book.
There is good and bad in them all and some religions even contradict themselves but i have no wish to delve into that now.
More important is for peopl not to lose sight....
When tracing back the histories of worship it seems our ancesstors all worshiped the same things but under slightly different guises.
Today it is "A god" in various different forms. But strangley enough this has only been since we have been able to travel to other objects in the sky .
Thousands of years ago people worshipped the objects in the sky...
Whilst one race worshiped the sun another worshipped the moon and others the stars and so forth.
Now we have been able to travel to the moon and learn more about it over the thousands of years we have moved on from worshipping it along with the sun.
So you see with relgion you are only ever led by what you dont know not and not what you do.
Christianity was borne from Judaism.
3500 BC was around the time the Groved Ware people existed in scotland who worshipped venus.
No one worships Venus anymore.
In 3000 years time we may have no religion. Who knows?
The roots of Judaism don't really fit this pattern. Abraham took up a monotheistic religion maybe 4-5,000 years ago. He didn't worship the sun, moon, stars, animals or anything else, yet there is no reason to think he understood the true nature of those things any more than any of his contemporaries.
Even when the ancient Israelites slipped into worship of other gods, these were always spirit beings represented by idols, not bits and pieces of the natural world.
Thats why I referenced the book.
There is good and bad in them all and some religions even contradict themselves but i have no wish to delve into that now.
More important is for peopl not to lose sight....
When tracing back the histories of worship it seems our ancesstors all worshiped the same things but under slightly different guises.
Today it is "A god" in various different forms. But strangley enough this has only been since we have been able to travel to other objects in the sky .
Thousands of years ago people worshipped the objects in the sky...
Whilst one race worshiped the sun another worshipped the moon and others the stars and so forth.
Now we have been able to travel to the moon and learn more about it over the thousands of years we have moved on from worshipping it along with the sun.
So you see with relgion and the beliefs system you are only ever led by what you dont know and not what you do.
Christianity was borne from Judaism.
3500 BC was around the time the Groved Ware people existed in scotland who worshipped venus.
No one worships Venus anymore.
In 3000 years time we may have no religion. Who knows?
See? When you're not being offensive, you prove to be quite intelligent :D
The roots of Judaism don't really fit this pattern. Abraham took up a monotheistic religion maybe 4-5,000 years ago. He didn't worship the sun, moon, stars, animals or anything else, yet there is no reason to think he understood the true nature of those things any more than any of his contemporaries.
Even when the ancient Israelites slipped into worship of other gods, these were always spirit beings represented by idols, not bits and pieces of the natural world.
You are quite correct in your appraisal but I was talking about the idealism of Judaism from the time of ENOCH not Abraham Issac and Jacob sons who made up the 12 Tribes and formed the Israelites.
Enoch being from 5000+BC
The Jewish calender actually goes back 5700 or so years
So it was around before then (4/5000 years ago)
The point I am trying to make is comparing the origins of religion and "What people do" in their belief systems.
IE worship a god or an object.
Jews were a scattered race of peoples across continents prior to Abraham and Enoch was one who travelled to digest the principles of other races.
I find it intruiging that in some of the rituals of freemasonry there are direct links to the peoples of nearly 6000 years ago yet their systems are based around objects and building more commonly associated with Judaism and the building of the great temple.
Yet religion is a non entity in Freemasonry so it isnt influenced in any way by it.
For me this actually shows that religion and beliefs are based more around what we dont know rather than what we do.
If, over the generations of thousands of years, we were all true in our beliefs we would all still be worshipping the Sun as they did in the stoneage.
We are not and once it was proven that the sun moon and stars weere just planets and not "Gods" people started to look in other directions. Hence the growth of other belief systems.
Dont forget the romans and the greeks.
See? When you're not being offensive, you prove to be quite intelligent :D
And when your not so defensive you prove to be quite intelligible.
:)
I'd rather be unintelligable than offensive :)
</playground mode>
:p
My dads bigger than yours :lol
Watch out I may want to play christians and muslims with you after.
all,
i'm a bit concerned that we're getting a bit bogged down in technicalities..
i think getting back on topic is the order of the day, don't you?
after all, there are enough threads about "religion" already ;)
all,
i'm a bit concerned that we're getting a bit bogged down in technicalities..
i think getting back on topic is the order of the day, don't you?
If anyone can remember what that was, of course ... ;)
Yeah...relationships etc
Since being born again all the women I've been out with have not been Christians.
Guess what - I'm single :)
here's a more articulate version of my own point of view on relationships (in the context of the first post)
http://www.godquestions.com/becca112000.html
the bible tells christians that "few will enter the kingdom of heaven" which is important because it follows on that the number of potential partners available will be equally few.
It is to be expected that meeting compatible people is difficult. - a quote i lifted from elsewhere.. but i thought it'd help put the christian viewpoint/dilemma more clearly
Anyway, for more 'miracles', read Revelations to find out what happens after the rapture - there'll be plenty then :)
Pardon me if this sounds like "Jam Yesterday, Jam Tomorrow, but never Jam Today!" :angel:
Don't worry....you're pardoned..... :confused:
Pardon me if this sounds like "Jam Yesterday, Jam Tomorrow, but never Jam Today!" :angel:
But I do have jam today! God's presence in my life is a major miracle. Sadly I can't prove it to you; as all I am on this forum is few kilobytes of user data and about 1,800 posted comments, you have no way of understanding the fundamental changes of character that occured in my life after my conversion. People who knew me before and after would attest to it though. That presence is onging, although I understand you could claim that to be delusional in some way.
External to me, people do get healed of sickness and impossible reversals in difficult situations do happen. They just get lost in the background noise of a world that doesn't want to believe. And as I posted yesterday, we simply don't know what major world events might have God's hand in them. The only difference between 'Biblical times' and now is that back then, the Bible was still being written, so things got recorded from God's point of view.
But I do have jam today! God's presence in my life is a major miracle. Sadly I can't prove it to you;
Which rather proves(!) my point!
External to me, people do get healed of sickness and impossible reversals in difficult situations do happen. They just get lost in the background noise of a world that doesn't want to believe.
Yes "miraculous cures" happen. Whether they're attributable to a deity or just pure luck for example is another matter entirely.
The only difference between 'Biblical times' and now is that back then, the Bible was still being written, so things got recorded from God's point of view.
Well, no, actually they got recorded from *mens'* point of view.
Which rather proves(!) my point!
Yes "miraculous cures" happen. Whether they're attributable to a deity or just pure luck for example is another matter entirely.
Well, no, actually they got recorded from *mens'* point of view.
If by 'no jam today' you meant 'nothing that is demonstrably jam today' then yes, it does prove your point - but becoming a Christian has always been a matter of faith, not empirical proof.
However I thought by 'jam yesterday, jam tomorrow but never jam today!' you were suggesting we believe miracles exist only in the Bible - either as history or prophecy - and never here and now. In which case, all I was saying is that I believe there is jam here and now.
As for whose point of view the Bible is from ... well, as far as I'm concerned, it was written by men who spiritually enjoyed a close relationship with God, so effectively his point of view. But then, this is another point on which there is no empirical proof on either side. :)
Yes "miraculous cures" happen. Whether they're attributable to a deity or just pure luck for example is another matter entirely.
Whereas you appear to choose one side, us Jesus-freaks side with the other :)
And like that, we'll all get along :)
Fine, but if someone claims "it's a miracle", you won't have any objection to anyone else looking for a scientific reason, will you?
Never have, never will :)
Just as long as we're not derided for what we believe.
The only difference between 'Biblical times' and now is that back then, the Bible was still being written, so things got recorded from God's point of view.
See what I mean about cows stomachs.....
Call me cynical but,
I wonder how many thousand of years it will take before people start saying God Parted the clouds came down sat in his Lazeeyboy grabbed his keyboard and wrote his prohecies on a web site ont t'internet.
Ive watched a few movies in my time but the parting of the sea wasnt one of them im afraid.
just another aside...on the matter of the rapture....revelations predicts several judgements...that one could see as miracles....a great earthquake, plagues etc etc
Tiptoes, I have read your comments with interest...
Two observations;
1) Your posts seem to suggest a negative brush with Christianity or some form of inherent aversion?
2) I am intrigued that you call yourself Tiptoes? That indicates tact and carefullness; neither of which seem to have been free-flowing, if you permit me to say?
Tiptoes, I have read your comments with interest...
Two observations;
1) Your posts seem to suggest a negative brush with Christianity or some form of inherent aversion?
2) I am intrigued that you call yourself Tiptoes? That indicates tact and carefullness; neither of which seem to have been free-flowing, if you permit me to say?
Well to address your observations,
1).
Nope I was brought up a Methodist, I went to Sunday school, said my prayers before tea and all that. The difference being I have just grown up and learned from my own personal experiences what else is one supposed to base their opnions on? A book written from thousands of years ago?
to give you some understand or remote comprehension I cite a taster of my experience of the Christian faith shall Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’‚¦Ã¢âà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ã‚¬Ã‚¦..
Only a few months ago watched an opera of a Christian marriage between a vicars daughter (Lovely Girl) and a friend take place. This marriage was not about love and all the attributes of Christian principles, it was where two people have been forced together as one with one of thse persons being none to happy but going ahead with the marriage because "he didnâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t want to upset the family" and thought it the right and proper thing to do... poor thing.
Now this is where I get off the religious bandwagon when it interferes with people lives and forces them into situations that they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really want to be in, but do so just because other people feel it right and proper.
I can also speak from personal experience...................
For many years I was unmarried and the pressure to get married was immense from all directions family, friends and the church...itr was almost like we had a disease of some sortâ₠¬Ã‚¦Ã¢â ‚¬Â¦. The vicar of our local school where one of my children went tool a instant disliking to my family because we were an "unmarried couple"........ The truth of the matter is our son was being bullied so much so he was coming home in Bites Bruises and wetting the bed each night... We knew nothing of this until the Doctor suggested he was being bullied at school when we took him to find the problem causing the bedwetting.
What did the head teacher & vicar (Cannon) say of the church school say?
Bullying doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t happen in Church schools....Really?
Well guess what when he was Cannon (Vicar) not only did we have to remove our child from the school to stop the bullying but two children hung themselves in the secondary school he was head of... Oh yes all shoved under the carpet.......even though our repeated requests for help fell on deaf ears....
The school tried to cover up their mistakes and we kept evidence of this cover up (Changed letters) which we eventually sent to the then education minister. Needless to say two weeks after we removed our child from the school after he was threatened to be set alight the head teacher from the school after 25/30 years service mysteriously "Retired"
Shortly after that our second child at the same school was bullied by her teacher... accused of stealing a pencil of a desk.... My daughter went short of nothing at school and had umpteen pencil in her case.. It was all a ploy to attack our family any way possible... We ended up removing her from the school as well because she was too frightened of the teacher.....
So am I cynical for not having faith in the Christian faith....
I have similar issues around other faiths such like I do not agree with Muslim arranged marriages but thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s another story and personal opinion.
we make and form these opinions on our personal experiences in life and unfortunately I have had some very bad ones whre religion is concerned and why I formed such strong views. You may have been luckier....
2) You are permitted to say whatever you want provided it is within the rules of this board I supposeââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚¦.
As far as my nickname is concerned it isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t relevant to anything I say or do it is just a nickname from someone who is very special and close to meââ‚ ¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦ and My private affairââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦. Trouble is your reading into something that isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t thereââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚¦Ã¢à¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ã‚¬Ã‚¦. Your mistake not mineââ‚ ¬Ã‚¦..........
If you would permit me to say.
Some bad experiences indeed but certainly in the minority. It would be unwise to expect all churches to be like that. For example, it is well known in my church that I am unmarried and had a child out of wedlock. I'm sure they would prefer it if we got together but nobody comments on it.
Those are two fine examples of the "human factor" when it comes to religious interpretation.
In one case, people who consider themselves christian act holier than thou yet bully children because they disagree with their parents' relationship.
In the other, you have a similar relationship (un-married parents) and they are not judged, but welcomed.
Fair point, but my experiences of children being bulllying and ignored in church schools isnt an "individual" case
Many kids have hung themselves as a result this isnt isolated.....
Fair point, but my experiences of children being bulllying and ignored in church schools isnt an "individual" case
Many kids have hung themselves as a result this isnt isolated.....
True but the millions and millions of kids who enjoy church schools around the world and have happy experiences there simply don't qualify for headline news these days...
True but the millions and millions of kids who enjoy church schools around the world and have happy experiences there simply don't qualify for headline news these days...
And another typical christian contradiction of its principles............
That the happiness of the many outweigh that of the dreadful deaths of the unhappy bullied few.....
so let me ask yopu Russ....
Are you saying that the millions of happy children should have the headline news? or
are you saying that there is so much good in the church we should ignore the problems of the few?
if not what is it exactly your saying with the above statement?
because if it was a cynical ploy it didnt work that well im afraid all it does for me is reinforce my veiw....
dieselking
28-11-2003, 16:37
I always thought that Christians were taught to wait until marriage before having sex with anyone or is this an old fashioned idea?
I always thought that Christians were taught to wait until marriage before having sex with anyone or is this an old fashioned idea?
It's very much encouraged to remain a virgin until you're married among the evangelical churches. In the bigger, more liberal denominations there's not a lot made of it.
Me and Mrs Towny both waited! (And we're glad we did).
Something confuses me, how does one get into a particular brand of religion, e.g. how did it work out for the christians on here? I take it you didn't wake up one day and think, today Matthew, I'm going to be born again! I did have another question about it but I'll wait and see what replies I get to this as it might be completely irrelevant.
And another typical christian contradiction of its principles............
That the happiness of the many outweigh that of the dreadful deaths of the unhappy bullied few.....
so let me ask yopu Russ....
Are you saying that the millions of happy children should have the headline news? or
are you saying that there is so much good in the church we should ignore the problems of the few?
if not what is it exactly your saying with the above statement?
because if it was a cynical ploy it didnt work that well im afraid all it does for me is reinforce my veiw....
Oh don't be so silly, that's NOT what I'm saying at all!
When people say what they distrust about religion and the church, the subject of abuse (physical and sexual) often comes up. Many people seem to be under the impression that it's quite common, my view is it doesn't happen any more in the church than in any other section of society, it just seems that way. My example was saying yes you remember the incidents when people within the church have abused their positions but all the good that the church does just doesn't get reported. This is not meant to belittle the situations the victims are in, I'm just explaining that many people's view of Christianity, Catholicism, CoE etc stems from minority situations.
I always thought that Christians were taught to wait until marriage before having sex with anyone or is this an old fashioned idea?
Yes we are, but I was tempted and didn't exersise enough restrain into the situation I had placed myself.
Something confuses me, how does one get into a particular brand of religion, e.g. how did it work out for the christians on here? I take it you didn't wake up one day and think, today Matthew, I'm going to be born again! I did have another question about it but I'll wait and see what replies I get to this as it might be completely irrelevant.
I was a Catholic until I was 18, I left as I felt it had no relevance for me but I continued to believe in and (to a point) respect God. I always knew I'd go back to Him and about 2 years ago I met a student nurse who was born again, we got together and I saw what she was in to and it felt right, very comfortable, so I decided the time was right to return.
I was a Catholic until I was 18, I left as I felt it had no relevance for me but I continued to believe in and (to a point) respect God. I always knew I'd go back to Him and about 2 years ago I met a student nurse who was born again, we got together and I saw what she was in to and it felt right, very comfortable, so I decided the time was right to return.
Ok, so if the person doesn't find that particular thing comfortable or right, is that them condemned? Each religion think's they're the right one ...
Ok, so if the person doesn't find that particular thing comfortable or right, is that them condemned? Each religion think's they're the right one ...
My imaginary friend is more comfortable than your imaginary friend? (sorry I just couldn't resist, I blame the prozac, and it has been a looong day)
Ok, so if the person doesn't find that particular thing comfortable or right, is that them condemned? Each religion think's they're the right one ...
No, remember I'm just talking from my own experience.
Ok, so if the person doesn't find that particular thing comfortable or right, is that them condemned? Each religion think's they're the right one ...
Actually I think a more acurate line would be: Each person thinks they've found the right religion
If you went to most churches for instance, you'd have people all claiming to be the same right religion, but some would accept an unmarried couple with kids, some wouldn't.
Religion is personal after all.
Something confuses me, how does one get into a particular brand of religion, e.g. how did it work out for the christians on here? I take it you didn't wake up one day and think, today Matthew, I'm going to be born again! I did have another question about it but I'll wait and see what replies I get to this as it might be completely irrelevant.
my story, in a nutshell, is that i was bought up church of england, went to a c of e primary school.....but stopped going to church because i (like russ) didn't feel that it was relevant in my life....the church was full of old people and was frankly boring........about 7years ago (can't believe it has been that long, makes me feel old) i began going to the school's christian union....went off to uni and again moved away from it all.........then nearly 3years ago......i was going out (and later got engaged to) a lad who was a christian......he took me to a social event in a pub for his church and i became a born-again christian...the church was a completely different type of church and i therefore felt that it was more relevant to my life
as for the sex before marriage thing, yeah it isn't advisable from a christian point of view, but it is like every other sin, we get tempted too
Well to address your observations,
1).
Nope I was brought up a Methodist, I went to Sunday school, said my prayers before tea and all that. The difference being I have just grown up and learned from my own personal experiences what else is one supposed to base their opnions on? A book written from thousands of years ago?
to give you some understand or remote comprehension I cite a taster of my experience of the Christian faith shall Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’‚¦Ã¢âà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ã‚¬Ã‚¦..
Only a few months ago watched an opera of a Christian marriage between a vicars daughter (Lovely Girl) and a friend take place. This marriage was not about love and all the attributes of Christian principles, it was where two people have been forced together as one with one of thse persons being none to happy but going ahead with the marriage because "he didnâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t want to upset the family" and thought it the right and proper thing to do... poor thing.
Now this is where I get off the religious bandwagon when it interferes with people lives and forces them into situations that they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really want to be in, but do so just because other people feel it right and proper.
I can also speak from personal experience...................
For many years I was unmarried and the pressure to get married was immense from all directions family, friends and the church...itr was almost like we had a disease of some sortâ₠¬Ã‚¦Ã¢â ‚¬Â¦. The vicar of our local school where one of my children went tool a instant disliking to my family because we were an "unmarried couple"........ The truth of the matter is our son was being bullied so much so he was coming home in Bites Bruises and wetting the bed each night... We knew nothing of this until the Doctor suggested he was being bullied at school when we took him to find the problem causing the bedwetting.
What did the head teacher & vicar (Cannon) say of the church school say?
Bullying doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t happen in Church schools....Really?
Well guess what when he was Cannon (Vicar) not only did we have to remove our child from the school to stop the bullying but two children hung themselves in the secondary school he was head of... Oh yes all shoved under the carpet.......even though our repeated requests for help fell on deaf ears....
The school tried to cover up their mistakes and we kept evidence of this cover up (Changed letters) which we eventually sent to the then education minister. Needless to say two weeks after we removed our child from the school after he was threatened to be set alight the head teacher from the school after 25/30 years service mysteriously "Retired"
Shortly after that our second child at the same school was bullied by her teacher... accused of stealing a pencil of a desk.... My daughter went short of nothing at school and had umpteen pencil in her case.. It was all a ploy to attack our family any way possible... We ended up removing her from the school as well because she was too frightened of the teacher.....
So am I cynical for not having faith in the Christian faith....
I have similar issues around other faiths such like I do not agree with Muslim arranged marriages but thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s another story and personal opinion.
we make and form these opinions on our personal experiences in life and unfortunately I have had some very bad ones whre religion is concerned and why I formed such strong views. You may have been luckier....
2) You are permitted to say whatever you want provided it is within the rules of this board I supposeââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚¦.
As far as my nickname is concerned it isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t relevant to anything I say or do it is just a nickname from someone who is very special and close to meââ‚ ¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦ and My private affairââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦. Trouble is your reading into something that isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t thereââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚¦Ã¢à¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ã‚¬Ã‚¦. Your mistake not mineââ‚ ¬Ã‚¦..........
If you would permit me to say.
I think that you have made the mistake of dismissing God because of bad human behaviour. Its true that Christians should try to be ambassadors of God in their behaviour but this is not always the case. Sometimes it can be gross "sin" like your son's headmaster or sometimes just a bad thought or sometimes, like Russ, a succumbing to temptation but it becomes more "public". All wrong in God's eyes but MORE wrong to our culture/society.
I really would implore you to cast your mind back to your church days and look for the good, not the restrictive or nastiness you have come across and draw on that as you ask God to show you what He wants for your life.
I'm not turning up the "Convert you" dial...just a genuine challenge to seek God.
....My mind boggles at the thought of your private affair that led you to call that person Tiptoes.... :blush:
I havent dismissed G-d,
I just dont follow the Christian version of events.
Neither from my experience do I trust, entertain or agree with people who use their religious beliefs as a tool to gain my trust or respect or promote their own agenda.
It is as simple as that really
I picked this letter up from the telegraph....
Beside the other issues I have witht he christian faith is it any wonder when the representatives of the church itself are abandoning their own........
Re: A question of Christmas
Date: 28 November 2003
Sir - Further to reports that the Red Cross is not to show any Christian symbols on its cards this year in order to avoid offending members of other faiths, may I point out the obvious: without Christianity, there is no Christmas.
Furthermore, before organisations make these crass decisions, why do they not canvass the opinions of non-fanatic members of other faiths? They will find that no objections are forthcoming.
A Hindu friend tells me that non-Christians are losing the respect they had for Christians because we are progressively abandoning much of the basis of our faith in the mistaken belief that this will make it easier to identify with our non-Christian neighbours.
From:
Charles Stone, Rugeley, Staffs
To be fair, you have been giving examples of minority situations as reasons to not agree with/trust Christianity (you are of course free to disagree with my faith for any reason you choose).
It would be naive (and patronising) of me to try and get across the idea that once a person has Christianity in their life that they suddenly become better and the world somehow improves, this is not the case. I'm sure that when someone gives their life to Big J, they gain a new perspective on life, but it's how they use this perspective that matters. Indeed there are plenty of people who have done more harm than good with Christianity however I stand by what I say about them being in the minority. Of course this doesn't make their issues any less relevant, but it's something I think people should bear in mind when making up their own minds.
Indeed there are plenty of people who have done more harm than good with Christianity however I stand by what I say about them being in the minority.
Those "plenty" of people who you say are in a minority who you agree to have done "more harm than good".. to the majority as a result of the beliefs...
Millions of people have died as a result of the "Minority" promoting and persecuting their beliefs
It is this I disagree with not the faith itself.
The Red Cross is an interesting one, many people mistakenly assume it's a christian organisation because of the cross.
In fact the red cross is simply the Swiss flag with it's colours inverted, symbolising impartiality.
However, because of this misinterpritation of the cross, the islamic Red Cresent was created.
Of course the red cross does attract many christians (and there's nothing wrong with that) which adds to the view that it is a christmas organisation.
I gave up christianity but the still try to live by the priciples bred into me and enhanced by my parents teaching unlike some on here
I totally agree with you, my ex's parents are catholics, and truly try to live as you say, by doing the right thing, helping others, being genuine.
I have a lot of respect for them because of that.
But like you, I see many "christians" as hypocrites, dressing up for church simply to out do others. As I've said before, many see it as a one day a week religion.
I have little respect for these people.
In fact I live a more moral life than many of them, yet as an athiest they've seen me as someone who'd like to lead their children astray!
drudge maybe........ dredd certainly not....
I counldnt concur with your view more Sir................
drudge maybe........ dredd certainly not....
Grud! Give me strength :D
I totally agree with you, my ex's parents are catholics, and truly try to live as you say, by doing the right thing, helping others, being genuine.
I have a lot of respect for them because of that.
But like you, I see many "christians" as hypocrites, dressing up for church simply to out do others. As I've said before, many see it as a one day a week religion.
I have little respect for these people.
In fact I live a more moral life than many of them, yet as an athiest they've seen me as someone who'd like to lead their children astray!
i would agree with you i find a lot of christians hypocritical, and yes i am not a "perfect" christian but they do not exist.......the point of being a christian is to try to be more christ-like....so please don't make comments and call me a hypocritc (you know who i mean) i have never claimed to be perfect, i have never claimed to be a wonderful person but i do try my best to help those around me and live a moral life.....
WORD GAMES
1. IF.......IT......CAP.....THEN.......FITS......THE. ....... WEAR
2. THINK.....PROTESTETH....TOO.....I.....THOU......MU CH
Rearrange the words to produce well known sayings.
i have had just about enough of your little digs now....if you dont like me then fine, don't read my posts......but STOP this now because i have had enough
dieselking
29-11-2003, 14:38
We who donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t believe in god canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t understand why people who call themselves Christians seem to think they can get away with anything & still go to heaven when they die., They seem to think just because they accept Jesus they can sin all the way though their lives & just because they think Jesus is their saviour they will get into this mythical heaven
But none believers can lead a very good & honest lives, never hurt anyone never sleep around & be very kind to others as we can but just because we refused to accept that there is a god, according to christians we will be sent straight down to hell. This is a very peculiar philosophy
As PMs are forbidden. Please take this to email or MSN
i do not understand what u are talking about????
In the post referred to and the previous NO NAMES were mentioned. Only those who perhaps can see themselves reflected in my post would react.
Ask your close friend about PMs.
I notice also that you have amended your sig. ???????
i believe that i am allowed to change my sig, when and if i want.....
i am not going to discuss this with you any further but stop making digs at me, even if they are vague ones it is not appropriate and it is harrassment
Drudge if you wish to keep your posting rights I would suggest that you stop annoying other members and keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
Please Vexy, I am a very mild mannered person and become very upset by these little tantrums. Please do not attack me like that in public.
i am not attacking you, you are the one whom has been posting comments which are directed at me......i am just asking you to back off and stop posting comments like this......there is no attack
dieselking
29-11-2003, 15:07
Now, now children play nicely :D :D
We who donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t believe in god canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t understand why people who call themselves Christians seem to think they can get away with anything & still go to heaven when they die., They seem to think just because they accept Jesus they can sin all the way though their lives & just because they think Jesus is their saviour they will get into this mythical heaven
That is not the case at all. I can only suggest you've been listening to the wrong people. We have NEVER said we can get away with anything.
That is not the case at all. I can only suggest you've been listening to the wrong people. We have NEVER said we can get away with anything.
i don't know about the other christians here, but when i do something which i know God would not like me to be doing i end up feeling ten times worse than i ever did about doing it before i was born-again.........but saying that we, as christians, are still tempted just like everyone else, but i always feel as though i have disappointed my heavenly Father and thus feel worse than if i did not have Him and His guidence
We who donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t believe in god canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t understand why people who call themselves Christians seem to think they can get away with anything & still go to heaven when they die., They seem to think just because they accept Jesus they can sin all the way though their lives & just because they think Jesus is their saviour they will get into this mythical heaven
But none believers can lead a very good & honest lives, never hurt anyone never sleep around & be very kind to others as we can but just because we refused to accept that there is a god, according to christians we will be sent straight down to hell. This is a very peculiar philosophy
Hi DK ... any Christian you have met who thinks the fact that they have been 'saved' and get 'forgiven' means they can do whatever they like and still go to heaven is completely deluded, and you will be doing them a favour if you tell them that! Around the time the New Testament of the Bible was being written, some people were going round saying that the fact they were so bad was giving God a chance to prove how good and forgiving he is, so therefore it must be a good thing to be bad, in order to give God a continuing reason to show off his 'grace'. St Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, got very angry about this and said of those people, 'their condemnation is just'.
Elsewhere, Jesus made it clear that the people who get into heaven at the end of it all are those who knew him, and who proved they knew him by living on Earth in the way he did. Of course, we're not perfect, and we still sin - I've made some fine messes in my life and I'm sure I'll make more - but making a mistake is a whole lot different than knowingly choosing a lifestyle that doesn't match up to the faith we profess.
As for the 'rules' for getting into heaven - it's not peculiar when you look at it from God's point of view. Heaven is his home; he is perfect and his home is perfect. He is quite entitled to decide who should be allowed to live there. As a matter of fact, no-one is allowed to live there of their own right - God is 100% perfect, heaven is 100% perfect, so anyone who lives there will have to be 100% perfect in order not to bring the place down. Because even a good person can't say they've gone their entire life without ever doing a single thing wrong, even a good person can't go to heaven. It's not a case of your good outweighing your bad - it's 100% good or nothing. And seeing as that means it's nothing for all of us, God made another way - forgiveness for us by punishing Jesus, who suffered separation from God so that when we die, if we have accepted what he did for us, we don't have to suffer that separation ourselves.
Sorry for climbing into the pulpit like that, but I really want you to know what the Bible does say about this so that you understand where we're coming from, and so that you can tell the difference between a Christian and a religious hypocrite.
wow towny another wonderful, inspiring and encouraging post from you..... you really do know your stuff :D
would it be ok if i pm'd you and asked you a few questions?
Bexy - sure, PM away
Drudge - you're welcome :)
God is 100% perfect
mumble mumble genocidal tyrant mumble mumble slightly tainted by that mumble mumble ;)
dieselking
29-11-2003, 19:52
Hi DK ... any Christian you have met who thinks the fact that they have been 'saved' and get 'forgiven' means they can do whatever they like and still go to heaven is completely deluded, and you will be doing them a favour if you tell them that! Around the time the New Testament of the Bible was being written, some people were going round saying that the fact they were so bad was giving God a chance to prove how good and forgiving he is, so therefore it must be a good thing to be bad, in order to give God a continuing reason to show off his 'grace'. St Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, got very angry about this and said of those people, 'their condemnation is just'.
Elsewhere, Jesus made it clear that the people who get into heaven at the end of it all are those who knew him, and who proved they knew him by living on Earth in the way he did. Of course, we're not perfect, and we still sin - I've made some fine messes in my life and I'm sure I'll make more - but making a mistake is a whole lot different than knowingly choosing a lifestyle that doesn't match up to the faith we profess.
As for the 'rules' for getting into heaven - it's not peculiar when you look at it from God's point of view. Heaven is his home; he is perfect and his home is perfect. He is quite entitled to decide who should be allowed to live there. As a matter of fact, no-one is allowed to live there of their own right - God is 100% perfect, heaven is 100% perfect, so anyone who lives there will have to be 100% perfect in order not to bring the place down. Because even a good person can't say they've gone their entire life without ever doing a single thing wrong, even a good person can't go to heaven. It's not a case of your good outweighing your bad - it's 100% good or nothing. And seeing as that means it's nothing for all of us, God made another way - forgiveness for us by punishing Jesus, who suffered separation from God so that when we die, if we have accepted what he did for us, we don't have to suffer that separation ourselves.
Sorry for climbing into the pulpit like that, but I really want you to know what the Bible does say about this so that you understand where we're coming from, and so that you can tell the difference between a Christian and a religious hypocrite.
Thank u for the good explanation Towny :)
Ok, who said they loved me? :D
Ok, who said they loved me? :D
ok is this a tirck question? :erm:
you mum??
your gf/wife/partner???
you gran??
or do u mean you had a rep point? :rofl:
ok is this a tirck question? :erm:
you mum??
your gf/wife/partner???
you gran??
or do u mean you had a rep point? :rofl:
Had a rep point
Towny, if it was you, then yes it would get me into trouble with the missus :rofl:
Had a rep point
Towny, if it was you, then yes it would get me into trouble with the missus :rofl:
ahhhh :p
wasnt me :p
and if it was towny, im worried :eeek:
We who don’t believe in god can’t understand why people who call themselves Christians seem to think they can get away with anything & still go to heaven when they die., They seem to think just because they accept Jesus they can sin all the way though their lives & just because they think Jesus is their saviour they will get into this mythical heaven
But none believers can lead a very good & honest lives, never hurt anyone never sleep around & be very kind to others as we can but just because we refused to accept that there is a god, according to christians we will be sent straight down to hell. This is a very peculiar philosophy
I second that emoticon :)
As for the 'rules' for getting into heaven - it's not peculiar when you look at it from God's point of view.
Is that g-ds point of view from a Christian perspective
G-Ds point of view from a muslim perspective
G-Ds point of view from a buddists perspective or
G-Ds point of view from a jewish Perspective?
Because I always understoond the rules to be different for many religions , races and people..............
Each type of peoples have a slightly different view of G-Ds rules for ascension to heaven..
Wow!When did this thread turn into a bash christians thread?
Silly me!It's how all the threads based on or around religion seem to end up these days. :rolleyes:
I'm an athiest BUT I'm not prepared to have a go at people JUST because they have a strong belief in their religion what ever that religion.This is a democracy where all religions have the right to worship as they wish PROVIDED that they obey all the secular laws.
Hypocracy is not the sole domain of Christians.It is present in everyone even those who are not of any faith.
As an athiest I would be always prepared to defend anyone's right to worship(or not worship) as they choose. :ninja:
So how about we just stick to the topic of this thread?
Incog.
dieselking
30-11-2003, 01:10
I second that emoticon :)
Thanks Tiptoes (Iâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢m glad someone does LOL) :)
Each type of peoples have a slightly different view of G-Ds rules for ascension to heaven..
True, but that observation does not preclude the possibility that only one view is correct; nor does it preclude the possibility of identifying which view is correct.
But it's far too late to open a debate on philosophical relativism, so I'm going to bed. :zzz:
--------
Xaccers - I can wholeheartedly promise I didn't rep you this evening ... although I do love you. :)
(Come on, you all know what I meant. Sheesh, is this a playground or what? :D )
Elsewhere, Jesus made it clear that the people who get into heaven at the end of it all are those who knew him, and who proved they knew him by living on Earth in the way he did.
I had a religious type turn up on my doorstep once (a JW I think) and I decided to try him on the "what if someone in the Amazon Rainforest or similar place lives a perfect life, according to Christian values, but never even *hears* of Jesus before they die? Surely it's the case that Christian belief says that because he hasn't accepted Jesus as his saviour, he's damned?"
"Ah no," replies the JW, "in the three days between when he died and was resurrected, his spirit went around the whole world to allow everyone to experience his blessings, so even if they've never heard of Jesus, they're still being a Christian!"
"But wait a moment," I responded, "what if they're a good Muslim or Hindu, but don't do anything against Christian values?"
"It doesn't matter. Even if they don't know it, they're still being a Christian!"
At this point I gave up in severe bogglement that this guy could a) present an argument that gets you both coming *and* going and b) that he could seemingly insult every other religion because it doesn't matter what someone does which they think is part of *their* religion, if they're doing according to the JW's beliefs, they're a Christian, no matter what!!!
(I could just imagine the scene: A devout Muslim strolls through the gates of Paradise. "Truly there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet!", "Sorry, pal, I'm Saint Peter and those were the Pearly Gates!!")
:shrug: :angel:
The bit of my post you quoted refers to a chunk of the Bible in which Jesus is separating among Christians - those who call themelves 'Christian' and live the life, and those who call themselves 'Christian' and then don't live it. It doesn't really relate to the issue of what happens to people who believe something else entirely.
I think the JW who came to your door had a very odd point of view indeed, certainly if he claimed the Bible as his authority. But the JWs have a number of very odd beliefs, IMO.
The Bible's message to Christians is to spread the Gospel, and it's message to non-Christians is to hear the Gospel and believe it. It says very little about those that don't hear it and therefore don't have a chance to respond, although there is one interesting passage in Paul's letter to the Roman Christians - he says there is enough evidence in creation for someone to come to a knowledge of God. Clearly you couldn't know Jesus' name or follow specifically Christian patterns of life or belief based on this, but I think it points to the idea of the person who has never known the name of Jesus still being able to worship him - and therefore getting 'saved'.
I don't think that every person who never heard of Jesus is therefore being a Christian, but there certainly seems to be room to suggest that those who come to some understanding that there is a God, and determine to try to serve him, will not be treated unjustly. That, after all, is at the crux of it - Justice is at the heart of God's nature.
And now I really am going to bed.
Well muslims just don't believe jesus was the son of god, but was a prophet and is part of their religion
True, but that observation does not preclude the possibility that only one view is correct; nor does it preclude the possibility of identifying which view is correct.
But it's far too late to open a debate on philosophical relativism, so I'm going to bed. :zzz:
No neeed to try and confuse the matter....lets keep it in terms people will understand rather than trying to use complex theories and issues to divert people away from the blatant contradictions......................
So in identifying that only "one" view is correct you cannot possibly be someone who also "respects other peoples religious beliefs.........."
See this is exactly what im talking about ..religion contradicts itself...
Respect the right of someone to be wrong?
I think the JW who came to your door had a very odd point of view indeed, certainly if he claimed the Bible as his authority. But the JWs have a number of very odd beliefs, IMO.
Ok, look, I'm *not* trying to "bash Christians" here, but couldn't they say the same thing about your beliefs?
Other "odd beliefs" amongst those who call themselves "Christian" include Papal Infallibility, the ordination of women bishops, whether homosexuality is "right" or not and the ordination of gay bishops, the doctrine of "infantile damnation" and a great many more besides.
Now if they are *all* Christians and they all read the same (well, more or less the same, eg with or without the Apocrypha or the King James "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") Bible, how can they have such "odd beliefs" which other Christians disagree with so vehemently?
To call one Christian "sect's" beliefs "odd" tends to imply that ones own beliefs are "not odd" and, therefore "better" or "more right".
No neeed to try and confuse the matter....lets keep it in terms people will understand rather than trying to use complex theories and issues to divert people away from the blatant contradictions......................
So in identifying that only "one" view is correct you cannot possibly be someone who also "respects other peoples religious beliefs.........."
See this is exactly what im talking about ..religion contradicts itself...
Begging your pardon, but when you talk about "God's point of view from a [insert religion(s) here] perspective" it's you that's introducing blatant contradictions, and you're expressing a relativist point of view whether or not you choose to give it that name.
It's also completely bogus of you to draw the (rather smug, I feel) conclusion that "religion contradicts itself" as if that somehow proved something. There is no such thing as a single entity called 'religion'. Religion is a word used to describe an aspect of human life - an aspect that takes a great many competing and mutually exclusive forms. Religion cannot contradict 'itself' because it is not a single entity.
And as for respecting other people's beliefs - your understanding of what it is to 'respect' someone is so deeply immature as to be not worth arguing. If you think that in order to respect someone you have to agree with them, you have a lot to learn.
To call one Christian "sect's" beliefs "odd" tends to imply that ones own beliefs are "not odd" and, therefore "better" or "more right".
;)
EDIT in order to be a little less facetious...
All religion ultimately claims to have the exclusively 'right' answer. That's offensive to modern Western ears because it's now considered bad form to tell someone else their belief (especially religious) is wrong, but you can't really avoid it.
Begging your pardon, but when you talk about "God's point of view from a [insert religion(s) here] perspective" it's you that's introducing blatant contradictions, and you're expressing a relativist point of view whether or not you choose to give it that name.
It's also completely bogus of you to draw the (rather smug, I feel) conclusion that "religion contradicts itself" as if that somehow proved something. There is no such thing as a single entity called 'religion'. Religion is a word used to describe an aspect of human life - an aspect that takes a great many competing and mutually exclusive forms. Religion cannot contradict 'itself' because it is not a single entity.
And as for respecting other people's beliefs - your understanding of what it is to 'respect' someone is so deeply immature as to be not worth arguing. If you think that in order to respect someone you have to agree with them, you have a lot to learn.
So basically any religion can of its own free will define "G-ds" view................... but pretend,while it is preaching this, that it actually respects the beliefs of others?
I dont follow.. Please explain the dymanics of "having one view" and "dimissing anothers"
If you arent to dismiss others Beleifs how can you possibly hold to your own view?
Turning Black and White into grey wont wash with me.....
So basically any religion can of its own free will define "G-ds" view................... but pretend,while it is preaching this, that it actually respects the beliefs of others?
I dont follow.. Please explain the dymanics of "having one view" and "dimissing anothers"
If you arent to dismiss others Beleifs how can you possibly hold to your own view?
Turning Black and White into grey wont wash with me.....
On a personal level, do you think I respect the beliefs of followers of other faiths and atheists?
On a personal level, do you think I respect the beliefs of followers of other faiths and atheists?
I believe that if your religious, following a religion, then your idealism should be to follow it, to the letter and to a point where you almost become biggoted.
I agree that people will follow some values of all different faiths, in part, to enrich their lives so agree with it, if they feel they get something out of it.
BUT I also beleive that only those who follow the faith to the letter and totally agree with their faiths priinciples dismissing other religious faiths are the ones who are true to their faith..............
And therefore are the only ones who are entitled to speak with any authority on the matter...
That's great, but you didn't really answer me....
So in identifying that only "one" view is correct you cannot possibly be someone who also "respects other peoples religious beliefs.........."
See this is exactly what im talking about ..religion contradicts itself...
I disagree - I consider it entirely possible to hold an exclusive religious view while giving respect to other people's beliefs. Respect for a belief doesn't require holding that belief, simply a determination not to belittle the person holding the belief solely on the grounds that he/she holds it.
I think the crux of the question hangs on what you mean by 'respect' with regard to other people's religious beliefs. I suspect that the respect religious people ask for is the recognition that the beliefs they hold, they hold genuinely and sincerely, and that when their beliefs are questioned, it is done without ridicule and contempt, but in a spirit of seeking truth.
/msec
I disagree - I consider it entirely possible to hold an exclusive religious view while giving respect to other people's beliefs. Respect for a belief doesn't require holding that belief, simply a determination not to belittle the person holding the belief solely on the grounds that he/she holds it.
I think the crux of the question hangs on what you mean by 'respect' with regard to other people's religious beliefs. I suspect that the respect religious people ask for is the recognition that the beliefs they hold, they hold genuinely and sincerely, and that when their beliefs are questioned, it is done without ridicule and contempt, but in a spirit of seeking truth.
/msec
exactly.....i think this is what it is to respect other people's beliefs...as a christian i am more than willing to discuss my beliefs or the beliefs of anyone else, whether they be part of a certain religious movement or whether they are athesitic in their beliefs, but it should be done in a way which does not belittle that person's belief system..... debating the issues surrounding one's belief is fair enough but when it becomes personal or ridiculing then i do not think it is right......
So basically any religion can of its own free will define "G-ds" view................... but pretend,while it is preaching this, that it actually respects the beliefs of others?
I dont follow.. Please explain the dymanics of "having one view" and "dimissing anothers"
If you arent to dismiss others Beleifs how can you possibly hold to your own view?
Turning Black and White into grey wont wash with me.....
And posting silly riddles won't wash with me. :)
I am free to say that I believe God has revealed facts a, b, and c to me and others who share the same faith. I am also free to say that another person, following a different religion, is mistaken when he claims x, y, and z to be true and a, b, and c to be false.
There is much that is mutually contradictory between, for example, Christianity and Islam. As a Christian I hold Jesus to be God incarnate as a man. Muslims find this offensive, because they believe Jesus was a prophet like Moses and to elevate him to divine status makes me guilty of both taking glory from God and promoting polytheism - belief in many gods, which Muslims passionately disagree with.
However, despite believing me to be quite mistaken on this point, the Qu'ran demands that Christians, as 'people of the Book', are to be respected.
So a Qu'ran-believing Muslim both disagrees with my theology, but also respects me as a follower of a religion mentioned in some of the writings he considers holy.
Just one of many, many examples of how it is possible for a reasonable human being to both disagree with someone and yet respect them at the same time.
And posting silly riddles won't wash with me. :)
I am free to say that I believe God has revealed facts a, b, and c to me.................
So you spoke to G-d? or did he write to you?
Perhaps his holiness has learned how to use email and t'internet.
Do you think he shall speak to me if I ask nicely enough?
Maybe he can come here and speak for himself.. rather than have his underlings do his work for him.......
So you spoke to G-d? or did he write to you?
Perhaps his holiness has learned how to use email and t'internet.
Do you think he shall speak to me if I ask nicely enough?
Maybe he can come here and speak for himself.. rather than have his underlings do his work for him.......
Really, if I thought your question was in any way sincere I'd take the trouble to answer you. As it is, I'd far rather go and have my tea. :)
All religion ultimately claims to have the exclusively 'right' answer. That's offensive to modern Western ears because it's now considered bad form to tell someone else their belief (especially religious) is wrong, but you can't really avoid it.
I don't consider it "offensive", I just consider it logically contradictory!
Really, if I thought your question was in any way sincere I'd take the trouble to answer you. As it is, I'd far rather go and have my tea. :)
Glad to see your taking it in the light it was meant,
Hope you enjoy your tea and the "his holiness" doesnt speak whilst your chewing on any fish bones :)
dieselking
30-11-2003, 20:00
I think some people who are Christian canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really understand why other people donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t accept god & donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t believe he exists. They see god as such a big influence on their lives and are unable to see that some people who do not believe live just as good lives and sometimes even better.
I disagree - I consider it entirely possible to hold an exclusive religious view while giving respect to other people's beliefs. Respect for a belief doesn't require holding that belief, simply a determination not to belittle the person holding the belief solely on the grounds that he/she holds it.
I think the crux of the question hangs on what you mean by 'respect' with regard to other people's religious beliefs. I suspect that the respect religious people ask for is the recognition that the beliefs they hold, they hold genuinely and sincerely, and that when their beliefs are questioned, it is done without ridicule and contempt, but in a spirit of seeking truth.
/msec
What is the total and undisputed truth to one person is an inconceivable lie to another...
You cannot have your cake and eat it...
I view respect as something that is earned..............
Like when you listen to a politician talking about how good it would be
for us to sign up to the EU consitution how can you respect the belief when you in yourself beleive it is promoted or constructed on something you beleive to be incorrect at best, or a lie at worst?
right that's it.I'm unsubscribing before I get very rude about the Christian bashers.I shall make doubly sure also that I never subscribe to another one as they all end up with the,the,the....well I'm not sure what they are but the whatevers versus the committed believers in religion.
Incog.
What is the total and undisputed truth to one person is an inconceivable lie to another...
You cannot have your cake and eat it...
I view respect as something that is earned..............
Like when you listen to a politician talking about how good it would be
for us to sign up to the EU consitution how can you respect the belief when you in yourself beleive it is promoted or constructed on something you beleive to be incorrect at best, or a lie at worst?
I'm sorry but everyone has the right to a viewpoint and/ or belief. I hold no religion as my own but that does not mean that the viewpoint of a Christian/ Jew/ Muslim etc is no less valid to me
So you spoke to G-d? or did he write to you?
Perhaps his holiness has learned how to use email and t'internet.
Do you think he shall speak to me if I ask nicely enough?
Maybe he can come here and speak for himself.. rather than have his underlings do his work for him.......
So why do you feel the need to belittle the beliefs of people who have a faith that you don't share? IMO it is this very attitude which causes so-called 'religious wars'.
I think some people who are Christian canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really understand why other people donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t accept god & donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t believe he exists. They see god as such a big influence on their lives and are unable to see that some people who do not believe live just as good lives and sometimes even better.
I know exactly what you mean (which is why I like talking on here with Russ and Towny etc as they aren't like this, to me anyway).
The JW's I knew expected me to join them, even though I told them time and time again I wasn't interested and it wasn't for me.
When they got the message tho, they turned very nasty, which hurt as I considered them friends and had been totally open and honest with them from the start.
I think some people who are Christian can’t really understand why other people don’t accept god & don’t believe he exists. They see god as such a big influence on their lives and are unable to see that some people who do not believe live just as good lives and sometimes even better.
i was a non-believer longer than i have been a believer, so i can understand the proposition of not believing in God or doubting his existence......but yes God has had a huge impact on my life, and when i have felt strong in faith i and others have noticed ahuge change in me..... i have a lot of non-christian friends, and have spoken about my faith with them......but i have never pushed my beliefs onto them because i don't feel it is right.... i have laid out my beliefs to them and they have generally come and asked me questions
homealone
30-11-2003, 22:50
What is the total and undisputed truth to one person is an inconceivable lie to another...
You cannot have your cake and eat it...
I view respect as something that is earned..............
Like when you listen to a politician talking about how good it would be
for us to sign up to the EU consitution how can you respect the belief when you in yourself beleive it is promoted or constructed on something you beleive to be incorrect at best, or a lie at worst?
yes respect has to be 'earned'
just think though - a person you don't respect has a belief that you do - and - a person you do respect has a belief that you don't - do both beliefs receive the same consideration? - I am of the opinion that 'belief' , 'faith' , whatever, is too personal an issue to attempt to deny as 'truth' or 'lies'.
People believe in black holes, yet they've never seen one, however, an expert in the field of quantum mechanics say's they exist so I guess they must!
I don't consider it "offensive", I just consider it logically contradictory!
Mutually exclusive claims by definition logically contradict one another. However, please remember that this does not mean that all of them are false - just that *at most* one of them can be true.
/msec
yes respect has to be 'earned'
just think though - a person you don't respect has a belief that you do - and - a person you do respect has a belief that you don't - do both beliefs receive the same consideration? - I am of the opinion that 'belief' , 'faith' , whatever, is too personal an issue to attempt to deny as 'truth' or 'lies'.
I don't think that your 'respect has to be earned' statement is complete.
I think you can also proactively respect someone. In other words have an attitude of respect of which a byproduct of your attitude leads to true respect.
Matthew 10:14 = Tiptoes , I feel.
This not disrespectful, by the way. Look it up.
yes respect has to be 'earned'
just think though - a person you don't respect has a belief that you do - and - a person you do respect has a belief that you don't - do both beliefs receive the same consideration? - I am of the opinion that 'belief' , 'faith' , whatever, is too personal an issue to attempt to deny as 'truth' or 'lies'.
Bifta... good point above however, Someone who Beleived in black holes should be able to prove they exist by scientific means... IT is that I respect.....
Maybe I need to make myself a little clearer
homealone and slalue..........
Say there is a Vicar who has done much charitable deeds and served his parishoners well over the years blah blah....
I would respect what he has done and his attitude toward the wider community but If he then said "It was my religion to do those things " then I would tell him I thought it was poppycock.......
For me A person truly and genuinely does something because he or she wants to and beleives that doing that will do some good and not because a book or "g-d" tells them to.....
If they are doing it solely because of the "book, writings" or because they beleive that "G-d" told them so then they are truly deluding themselves.....
I do charitable things because I want to not because some book tell me its good to do it....
Ill repeat this is MY VIEW not what Ive read from a book or what someon tells me to read from a book its MINE ME MOI,... How I Feel..
I respect other people view to tell me im wrong but I expect the chance to respond....
If people are upset by my response then thats not my problem I am not going to change the way I feel or MY VIEW because someone is upset by it..........
Why should I......
And I never said I didnt beleive in a G-D I do. its just not the same as what most other people beleive..
In that I beleive there is something but I dont know what because I dont beleive I have found a truly valid explanation yet...
Thats all folks
Oh and I would just like to add that I dont believe your being disrespectful by challenging what someone says.
I may have been a bit obtuse with my phrasing and for that I apologise but I wont apologise for challenging....
Mutually exclusive claims by definition logically contradict one another. However, please remember that this does not mean that all of them are false - just that *at most* one of them can be true.
/msec
Okay then, in that case
I would like somoene to come here and give me an example of proof..
Any example will do
proof is subjective.. a pointless request IMHO
I consider the complexity and order of creation as proof of a creator.. whereas you (i assume) will not.
Moving slightly back on topic whilst also keeping in line what we've recently been discussing, how about people who adopt their partners faith so that they can get married?
Are they simply paying lip service so that they can be with the one they love?
Moving slightly back on topic whilst also keeping in line what we've recently been discussing, how about people who adopt their partners faith so that they can get married?
Are they simply paying lip service so that they can be with the one they love?
To be truly saved, one must mean it in their heart, so becoming a Christian just for the sake of it is impossible - God knows our hearts and true intentions, we can't fool Him.
Mutually exclusive claims by definition logically contradict one another. However, please remember that this does not mean that all of them are false - just that *at most* one of them can be true.
I'm well aware of that. However in the absence of any concrete proof of either/ any of the claims, the most logical conclusion by Occam's Razor is still that none are true.
Moving slightly back on topic whilst also keeping in line what we've recently been discussing, how about people who adopt their partners faith so that they can get married?
Are they simply paying lip service so that they can be with the one they love?
It would be difficult to make a generalisation, but I know of the son of a family friend who 'converted' to Judaism in order to get married. His younger brother, who is my age, told me at the time that 'neither of them give a tos$ about their religion so they don't care'.
People believe in black holes, yet they've never seen one, however, an expert in the field of quantum mechanics say's they exist so I guess they must!
The point, however, is that anyone can, if they wish, learn Quantum Physics and, *independantly* prove and demonstrate the existance of black holes according to our existing knowledge of physics.
There is no "faith" or "belief" involved.
The point, however, is that anyone can, if they wish, learn Quantum Physics and, *independantly* prove and demonstrate the existance of black holes according to our existing knowledge of physics.
There is no "faith" or "belief" involved.
Except of course the belief that our current understanding of physics is correct. :)
Scenario
Phone rings and My mum asks what the weather is like .... I reply "It's Raining", as I'd seen spots of water on the window.
Mum then relays this information to all that she meets and greets throughout her day. However late on in the day, she relays this information to a friend who works in the same place as me, who argues that it wasn't raining at all, in fact it was sunny. The argument continues and as a result they fall out.
In actual fact the spots of water, were from a gardener watering the grounds, and splashing the window.
Was Mum wrong in what she believed .... ??
Were they wrong to argue .... ???
Faith is a personal thing, we all have faith in many things .... why do we feel the need to question what someone else believes in.
I know the analogy is very simple, but why can we not just accept each other for what we are, we are all Human, we have failings, we believe in certain things and disbelieve others.
The disblelievers seem to require proof that things do or don't exist, what does it matter?
The believers, just know things do or don't exist.
This is down to experience, and that again is personal.
The 'God Squad' on this site believe, so who are you/me to argue or try and pull that belief apart ?
It would be difficult to make a generalisation, but I know of the son of a family friend who 'converted' to Judaism in order to get married. His younger brother, who is my age, told me at the time that 'neither of them give a tos$ about their religion so they don't care'.
I guess it's kinda like me getting married in a church, the religious part doesn't matter to me, its my vow to my fiancee that is important
I guess it's kinda like me getting married in a church, the religious part doesn't matter to me, its my vow to my fiancee that is important
This is the point I was also making,
people do this primarily because they are forced to or becuase they dont want to upset other people within their community..
If the religous part doesnt matter then why go through with it?
It just annoys me that people do..
You shouldn't do something if you dont beleive in it...
Its an insult to those who do beleive in it if you do (My opinion) of course.
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