Number stations? [Archive]

Kliro

31-05-2005, 12:44

gazzae

31-05-2005, 12:48

Some more info here..

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_330.html

homealone

31-05-2005, 12:48

not heard of them before - I have now ;)

http://www.southgatearc.org/articles/spies/spyradio.htm

has some more info ;) - but now I will have to shoot you :D

Chimaera

31-05-2005, 12:48

I've just Googled for it - and there's loads of results! It's well scary! :eek: :Sprint:

Caspar

31-05-2005, 13:04

Forces beyond the control of the CableForum admin/Mod team lead this thread to be closed.

Please do not discuss this subject on this forum.

THREAD CLOSED.

:rofl: :D

Chimaera

31-05-2005, 13:06

CRIKEY I thought you were serious then! :Sprint:

Kliro

31-05-2005, 13:07

Heh on the radio last night they started being silly like that, went off air for a whole minute and pretended their backup CD came on.

Then they wouldnt talk about the subject for the rest of the night..

Xaccers

31-05-2005, 13:12

I was getting interferance from a spanish radio station SEUR (I think) on radio4 a couple of days ago, does that count? :)

zoombini

31-05-2005, 13:21

Don't be daft, spies indeed.
It's the international chinese meal delivery service, just placing an order. :D

Caspar

31-05-2005, 13:23

CRIKEY I thought you were serious then! :Sprint::LOL: :rofl:

Don't worry we beat them back at the door! ;)

Mr_love_monkey

31-05-2005, 13:38

I was getting interferance from a spanish radio station SEUR (I think) on radio4 a couple of days ago, does that count? :)

I was once interferred with, by a spanish radio presenter, does that count?? :)

Caspar

31-05-2005, 13:39

I was once interferred with, by a spanish radio presenter, does that count?? :)Kindly explain that before I remove it for content not befitting a family forum????! :)

Mr_love_monkey

31-05-2005, 13:56

Kindly explain that before I remove it for content not befitting a family forum????! :)
I meant that I was trying to read a book, and this spanish radio presenter kept turning the pages over before I was done with them - intereferring with me and my reading.....

*phew* :)

Caspar

31-05-2005, 14:02

I meant that I was trying to read a book, and this spanish radio presenter kept turning the pages over before I was done with them - intereferring with me and my reading.....

*phew* :)

That's ok then! :)

danielf

31-05-2005, 14:04

That's ok then! :)

Surely that depends on the book? :shrug: :)

Caspar

31-05-2005, 14:10

:notopic:

ok, back on topic please peeps :)

Escapee

31-05-2005, 18:59

I remember the one from my early shortwave listening days, that used to keep repeating something like "Zieben Ein Act Eiben"

It used to do that over and over, then stop for a few minutes, I was once told it was something to do with the water level on the Rhine.

The RTTY number stations used to give very strange messages, I often sat watching Theran news on RTTY and Reuters in the cold war days.

PS: You guys will start talking about the woodpecker next. :D

That was the Russian over the horizon radar jammer, it consisted of pumping megawatts of pules RF in the HF spectrum. I think it used to alter frequency to allow for propogation changes as the MUF and E/F layers moved. Perhaps we can get into SFI as well.

This place is full of anoraks :D

cookie_365

31-05-2005, 20:45

I have only one thing to say on the topic:

147624935702577694981850

And who could argue with that ??

Jules

31-05-2005, 21:48

Ok yes I am blonde but no I am not thick...daft maybe but not thick, so will some one tell me what this is all about? lol

TheBlueRaja

31-05-2005, 21:58

I could tell you but i'd have to shoot you afterwards... :D

(What - come on... :) )

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 22:38

Ok yes I am blonde but no I am not thick...daft maybe but not thick, so will some one tell me what this is all about? lol

There are radio stations which (periodically, and at unspecified intervals) transmit nothing but a series of numbers (sometimes 3, 4, or 5 digits).

These broadcasts are accompanied by nothing, no music, no explanation, just the numbers.

They come as quickly as they go, and nobody can predict when they will next be broadcast.

There is a (quite believable) theory, that these broadcasts are intended for members of the secret service (spies, if you prefer) and that they are actually encoded messages.

I think that about sums it up.
__________________

I have only one thing to say on the topic:

147624935702577694981850

And who could argue with that ??

Actually you've just ordered a Taxi for two elephants from Egg Fried Rice Street, picking up at 27:84 hours.

You got the formatting a little wrong. I think what you meant to say was:

14762 49357 02577 69498 18506

Note: as well as forgetting to split the numbers into groups of five digits you also omitted the vital "6" from the end.
Obviously I'm making assumptions about what you meant to say, other than the previously quoted taxi request there's not really a lot else that your string of numbers could resolve to.
If I am right, all I can say is shame on you! That's positively filthy! Certainly not the sort of thing I would expect to hear from a fine upstanding member of this community.
Besides, I don't think you'll get much help here I don't own a bucket, and I'm sure there aren't many people posting here who could round up enough soapy frogs to fill one :erm:

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 22:41

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 22:43

but surely in this day and age they would just use secure satcom or something like that , i mean come on , does anyone really buy into all this cloak and dagger stuff , i dont and i reckon the lot of you would buy a 3 legged donkey if you were told it had 4 legs , talk about gullible :dozey: :rolleyes: :dunce: 's

Yes..... That's right paul..... It's all a lie..... That's exactly right..... No truth in it whatsoever..... Remember, you didn't see any UFOs..... Or me..... I didn't post this message..... We were never here..... Any of us.....

Xaccers

31-05-2005, 22:57

but surely in this day and age they would just use secure satcom or something like that , i mean come on , does anyone really buy into all this cloak and dagger stuff , i dont and i reckon the lot of you would buy a 3 legged donkey if you were told it had 4 legs , talk about gullible :dozey: :rolleyes: :dunce: 's

Think about it, it's cheap, long range, anyone "in the field" can get hold of a SW radio.

You just agree on some literature, like the Telegraph, and what the numbers mean, page, paragraph, line, word, letter etc and you've got yourself a pretty much unbreakable code.

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 22:58

Actually, I've just re-read your post paul.

I had assumed you were joking but there doesn't appear to be your usual prolification of well place smileys indicating such.

Before this degenerates into a(nother) slanging match can you just confirm that was a joke.

If it wasn't I have to say that I find it appalling that you would just sweep aside someone else's views in the way that you just did.

I happen to believe quite strongly that these "number stations" are what they have been reported to be, although I believe that the story that is currently doing the rounds is one that has been intentionally leaked by the government in order to give them plausible deniability.

I think that if the truth were ever to come out we would find that these stations are actually linked to more sinister things in the background, probably to clandestine government plots - possibly even to alien/other world visitations.

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 22:59

yeah , but do you really think they are still into one time code pads and dead letter boxes , i cant see it somehow , i mean come on this aint the sixties is it :erm:

Before this degenerates into a(nother) slanging match can you just confirm that was a joke.

If it wasn't I have to say that I find it appalling that you would just sweep aside someone else's views in the way that you just did.

I happen to believe quite strongly that these "number stations" are what they have been reported to be, although I believe that the story that is currently doing the rounds is one that has been intentionally leaked by the government in order to give them plausible deniability.

I think that if the truth were ever to come out we would find that these stations are actually linked to more sinister things in the background, probably to clandestine government plots - possibly even to alien/other world visitations.

no slanging matches here :) , its something that that i am well interested in , as for sweeping other ppl's beliefs away , no not me , i just cant believe ppl still buy into this :disturbd:

danielf

31-05-2005, 23:07

Think about it, it's cheap, long range, anyone "in the field" can get hold of a SW radio.

You just agree on some literature, like the Telegraph, and what the numbers mean, page, paragraph, line, word, letter etc and you've got yourself a pretty much unbreakable code.

But, as I understand, every code is used only once. So how do you agree on a code with people out in the field?

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 23:10

cookie_365

31-05-2005, 23:12

Actually you've just ordered a Taxi for two elephants from Egg Fried Rice Street, picking up at 27:84 hours.

You got the formatting a little wrong. I think what you meant to say was:

14762 49357 02577 69498 18506

Note: as well as forgetting to split the numbers into groups of five digits you also omitted the vital "6" from the end.
Obviously I'm making assumptions about what you meant to say, other than the previously quoted taxi request there's not really a lot else that your string of numbers could resolve to.
If I am right, all I can say is shame on you! That's positively filthy! Certainly not the sort of thing I would expect to hear from a fine upstanding member of this community.
Besides, I don't think you'll get much help here I don't own a bucket, and I'm sure there aren't many people posting here who could round up enough soapy frogs to fill one :erm:

Thanks for the heads up - I actually wanted Elephant Chow Mein (No. 27) with Egg Fried Rice (No. 84) and that I'd be sending a taxi round ...

I'm delighted to hear that I'm a fine upstanding member of this community - how little you know me!

And if just one in every 100 CF members can rustle up a frog from somewhere, I'm laughing - what can I do but ask ? ;););)

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 23:14

yeah , but do you really think they are still into one time code pads and dead letter boxes , i cant see it somehow , i mean come on this aint the sixties is it :erm:

No, not still the sixties.

You have to remember though that some of the other "agencies" that we may be dealing with won't have access to our level of technology.

We may also be dealing with people who's technology is so far advanced (and so different) compared to ours that we need to adopt a "lowest common denominator" approach.

Think about it and you'll see what I mean.
__________________

Thanks for the heads up - I actually wanted Elephant Chow Mein (No. 27) with Egg Fried Rice (No. 84) and that I'd be sending a taxi round ...

I'm delighted to hear that I'm a fine upstanding member of this community - how little you know me!

And if just one in every 100 CF members can rustle up a frog from somewhere, I'm laughing - what can I do but ask ? ;););)

Yeah, but where are you gonna get a wetsuit with the bottom cut out at this time of the night :shrug:

cookie_365

31-05-2005, 23:15

Yeah, but where are you gonna get a wetsuit with the bottom cut out at this time of the night :shrug:

Ah, in my circles that's the easy bit .... ;)

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 23:16

Ah, in my circles that's the easy bit .... ;)

Don't wanna know about your "circles", anyway, back on topic :erm:

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 23:18

No, not still the sixties.

You have to remember though that some of the other "agencies" that we may be dealing with won't have access to our level of technology.

We may also be dealing with people who's technology is so far advanced (and so different) compared to ours that we need to adopt a "lowest common denominator" approach.

Think about it and you'll see what I mean.

but i would like to bet that we supply top notch surveillance / comms gear to many a poor country that we have an interest in ;) , be it oil , or whatever commodity that we need , the company i work for has spent millions helping to refurbish a facility in a faraway land that is vital to this country , and no i cant tell what it is :erm:

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 23:22

but i would like to bet that we supply top notch surveillance / comms gear to many a poor country that we have an interest in ;) , be it oil , or whatever commodity that we need , the company i work for has spent millions helping to refurbish a facility in a faraway land that is vital to this country , and no i cant tell what it is :erm:

The thing is that (generally) we don't.

We can't do that..... Why tech them up to the same level as us when one day we may want them not to have the same level of technology as us? It just makes no sense. Far better to leave them where thy are (technologically speaking) and save the good stuff for ourselves, thus paving the way for an easier time if we decide that we don't want to be friends with them any more.

Anyway, I'm not just talking about far away lands. I'm considering very far away lands as well.....

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 23:25

The thing is that (generally) we don't.

We can't do that..... Why tech them up to the same level as us when one day we may want them not to have the same level of technology as us? It just makes no sense. Far better to leave them where thy are (technologically speaking) and save the good stuff for ourselves, thus paving the way for an easier time if we decide that we don't want to be friends with them any more.

Anyway, I'm not just talking about far away lands. I'm considering very far away lands as well.....

ahhhh but , generally does not mean always , what about the sas who do a lot of hearts and minds work in far off lands to win the support of the local ppl :)

altis

31-05-2005, 23:27

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 23:28

ahhhh but , generally does not mean always , what about the sas who do a lot of hearts and minds work in far off lands to win the support of the local ppl :)

Yeah, there's a reason for that as well.....

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 23:28

These 'number stations' have been around for years. I remember listening to quite a few on my brother's shortwave radio when I was a lad at home. I seem to remember that they were mostly in German.

I didn't think that anyone had come up with a definitive explaination. I may be wrong - have they?

i can see it happening years ago , i just cant see it happening now , but then , if someone were to prve me definitely wrong then it would be another matter , over to you guys :erm:

ian@huth

31-05-2005, 23:30

try this (http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/info/signals/digital/codes/secret/onetimepad.html) for an explanation :) , to be honest , i cant see it being used much now , far too open to being caught via surveillance :erm:So the enemy intercept the code and have several of their top brains busy trying to interpret its meaning. That's got them tied up for a while even though the code may be meaningless. Coded messages don't always convey any information to anyone but keep the enemy guessing.

There can be many groups that send coded messages, not just governments. Terrorists, protestors, hackers, etc spring to mind. The numbers in themselves may not be coded messages but a signal. Listen in for the string "986234 51241" and when you hear it start plan A, ignore everything else.

paulyoung666

31-05-2005, 23:31

So the enemy intercept the code and have several of their top brains busy trying to interpret its meaning. That's got them tied up for a while even though the code may be meaningless. Coded messages don't always convey any information to anyone but keep the enemy guessing.

There can be many groups that send coded messages, not just governments. Terrorists, protestors, hackers, etc spring to mind. The numbers in themselves may not be coded messages but a signal. Listen in for the string "986234 51241" and when you hear it start plan A, ignore everything else.

good point , but can you really still see it being used nowadays , i cant :erm:

Kliro

31-05-2005, 23:43

danielf

31-05-2005, 23:53

I can, as he says even if the government have stopped using it, then groups with lower amounts of money - terrorists, hackers, drug smugglers etc could be using it.

But think for a second, it would be much easier to recognise someone as a spy if they had high tech receiving equipment, than if they bought a cheap shortwave radio whenever one was needed.

Doing powerful shortwave transmissions might give you away when you're not governmnent related though.

Also, the obvious advantage of modern communication techniques is that they allow for two-way communication.

Kliro

31-05-2005, 23:54

No, the way they transmit the waves bounces them off the athenosphere or something like that, making it virtually impossible to find the location.

Someone into radios will be able to tell you more.

Raistlin

31-05-2005, 23:58

Doing powerful shortwave transmissions might give you away when you're not governmnent related though.

Also, the obvious advantage of modern communication techniques is that they allow for two-way communication.

If you communicate out then your signal can be traced (by triangulation usually). It is far better to be a "passive agent" in the communication process. The enemy have no way of knowing where the signal is being directed so it will make their job of finding you that bit more difficult.
__________________

No, the way they transmit the waves bounces them off the athenosphere or something like that, making it virtually impossible to find the location.

There is a reason that most of these transmissions (particularly the ones from the "number stations") are directed the way that they are. But that isn't it.

Bouncing the signals in this way uses a little known side effect of the Earth's magnetic field to modify the signal (if the signal is sent in a certain manner), enabling it to be more easily retrieved from outside the Earth's atmosphere.

danielf

01-06-2005, 00:02

If you communicate out then your signal can be traced (by triangulation usually). It is far better to be a "passive agent" in the communication process. The enemy have no way of knowing where the signal is being directed so it will make their job of finding you that bit more difficult.

Indeed, my point was that it is very easy for Governments to do this, as they control what goes on/ is detected in their radio space. Terrorist groups/hackers etc. run the risk of being found out by the government because they are transmitting.

Raistlin

01-06-2005, 00:03

Indeed, my point was that it is very easy for Governments to do this, as they control what goes on, is detected in their radio space. Terrorist groups/hackers etc. run the risk of being found out by the government because they are transmitting.

:tu:

danielf

01-06-2005, 00:05

No, the way they transmit the waves bounces them off the athenosphere or something like that, making it virtually impossible to find the location.

Someone into radios will be able to tell you more.

I think it is called a 'duplex' which can only be done when the atmospheric conditions are right, and only serves the purpose of having longer range with the same power transmission. Any transmission can be pinpointed by triangulation.

Raistlin

01-06-2005, 00:06

Isn't the asthenosphere the upper mantle of the Earth's crust anyway?

Wouldn't that make it underground?

Did you mean ionosphere?

ian@huth

01-06-2005, 00:32

Any transmission can be pinpointed by triangulation.Whilst that is true the transmission point could be moved from location to location or even be mobile.

Whatever these transmissions mean there must be a reason for them. I doubt if it is just some silly burger having a laugh and doing it for fun as it appears to have been going on for some time.

Could be some unmanned remote installation somewhere sending out radio signals giving operational statistics or some similar legal usage.

Raistlin

01-06-2005, 00:35

it appears to have been going on for some time.

Yep, in fact you can trace the origins of these messages back as far as 1947.

danielf

01-06-2005, 01:08

Whilst that is true the transmission point could be moved from location to location or even be mobile.

Whatever these transmissions mean there must be a reason for them. I doubt if it is just some silly burger having a laugh and doing it for fun as it appears to have been going on for some time.

Could be some unmanned remote installation somewhere sending out radio signals giving operational statistics or some similar legal usage.

I agree, and it actually seems quite likely to me they are used to contact intelligence personnel. I just meant to indicate that there will be additional risks/problems for groups not tied to the government. Mind you, the Pakistani/Afghan officials may not be able to immediately pinpoint a brief transmission emanating from some remote area in the mountains.

As a side note: Are there any Short Wave enthousiasts out there that know what the size of a Short Wave antenna (for transmission) is? Is a mobile SW antenna feasible?

Gareth

01-06-2005, 01:45

Shhh, don't tell anyone but I applied for a job with GCHQ recently http://67.15.137.131/images/yahoo/a27.gif

...but I didn't get it. Anyway, code cracking is still a highly sought after skill and I'm definitely crap at it :D

Jules

01-06-2005, 14:45

Doesn't Russ work for a radio station? maybe he can throw some light on this

gary_580

01-06-2005, 14:57

MI5 and CIA both do this, they have allotted times on agreed frequencies that continually change where they exchange information
__________________

what the size of a Short Wave antenna (for transmission) is? Is a mobile SW antenna feasible?

i'd have to shoot you if i told you ;)

Yes you can get these. As a short wave antenna is only a length of wire, 7 meters plus i think you can buy these and they look like a small tape measure so that the wire is fully retractable.

Theodoric

02-06-2005, 18:54

Anyone heard of these?

Was listning to the radio last night, when they started playing recordings from these radio stations, was a bit scary, a weird nursery rhyme like tune, followed by a series of numbers in German.

The presenters were saying how these number stations mostly operate sporadically on shortwave, and are a foolproof way of governments communicating with their spies.

Just thought I'd share this fairy irrelavant, but interesting point with you :)
I remember them in the early 70s; I built a few of short wave sets then.

PS Does Practical Wireless still exist? As you can buy most a wireless receiver on a chip nowadays, I suspect that interest in building your own sets has disappeared.

Escapee

02-06-2005, 19:33

I remember them in the early 70s; I built a few of short wave sets then.

PS Does Practical Wireless still exist? As you can buy most a wireless receiver on a chip nowadays, I suspect that interest in building your own sets has disappeared.

Yep, Practical wireless is still about.

Some of the single radio IC's like the ZN414 are even long obsolete now though. I still think there is some satisfaction in building a shortwave receiver from a handful of components in an old tobacco tin, and listening to other radio amateurs thousands of miles away.

fireman328

02-06-2005, 19:44

Try this link for info re WW 2 spy sets and the normal sets used by uniformed units.
http://www.rsars.org.uk/EQUIPMENT.HTM

Roy MM

02-06-2005, 19:48

Still got a "cats whisker" somewhere in the spare room.

fireman328

02-06-2005, 20:02

Still got a "cats whisker" somewhere in the spare room.

Those were the days ! Huddled together sharing one earphone each listening to Reginald Dixon live from the Tower Ballroom on 2LO, sucking a mint imperial for warmth until someone jogged the cats whisker and the station disappeared.

Angelus

01-11-2005, 02:18

So anyone heard of these

Creepy huh

"Numbers stations are shortwave radio stations of uncertain origin that broadcast streams of numbers, letters (using a phonetic alphabet), or words. It is not known publicly with certainty where these signals originate or what purpose they serve. The voices that can be heard on these stations are often mysterious: mechanically generated; spoken in a wide variety of languages; usually female, but sometimes male or those of children. Numbers stations appear and disappear continuously, although some stick to regular schedules, and their overall activity has increased slightly since the early 1990s."

Here is some mp3 of these number stations http://irdial.hyperreal.org/the%20conet%20project/