View Full Version : Anyone know anything about home insurance?
aliferste
29-03-2005, 13:59
Hello there,
Over crimbo and new year we had a new bathroom put in. The tradesman managed to flood the people downstairs. Now the owner of the company went down and said he would fix their ceiling and that was that. However a few months later he still has not done it.
The guys landlord wants us to give him OUR insurance details to claim on. However we are not liable as it was the tradesman that caused the problem.
I contacted my lawyer (we are selling our flat) and he says that we should not be giving our details out to anyone as our insurance does not cover him downstairs.
I told this to the landlord and he got incredibly annoyed saying that "if that was the way I wanted to play it then fine" he would be getting his lawyer to contact me :erm:
The problem is that the landlord is having problems getting the tradesman to come out and do the work.....but I think that it all dealings should be through the landlord and the tradesman and should have nothing to do with me.....is that correct?
I reckon he wants to claim for a whole new kitchen on our insurance.....but I dont think that my insurance would pay out anyway!!
Allso should the guy downstairs not be getting in contact with his insurance company who would get in touch with my insurance company :confused:
What do you guys think?
Well, the tradesman who did your job SHOULD have insurance to cover him so he should either sort out the problems himself or give the people concerned his insurance details for them to claim. Far as I can see nothing to do with you......
homealone
29-03-2005, 14:16
usual disclaimer, I am no expert at this, but it seems that both the downstairs tenant & the landlord are of the impression contents insurance works like car insurance - afaik it doesn't.
There is no claim that can be made against your insurance, as your contents were not damaged - the liabilty of your insurance company is solely to you, not to any third party.
The redress the other tenants have is with their insurance company & will entitle them to replacement of any items belonging to them, that were damaged as a result of the flood.
Similarly the landlord will need to pursue his own claim, either with his own insurers, or through the tradesmans public liability insurance (assuming self employed).
aliferste
29-03-2005, 14:19
Right, so I should hold my ground then!!
I have a funny feeling that they do not have house insurance downstairs and that is why they want to claim off mine!!
andygrif
29-03-2005, 14:22
I think you should get in touch with your insurance company and explain the whole situation to them, asking what what they would like to do. They may wish to get a pre-emptive stike in saying that they are contacting the landland to state they have no liability over the work and that he should contact the insurer of the tradesman.
However if you're saying that the work was carried out on your premises and that another property was damaged as a result then you are liable. It would then be up to the insurance company to claim against the tradesman who messed up.
While I stand to be corrected, you had some work done in your flat that caused damage to the flat bellows ceiling. Put yourself in their position, what would you do? In their position. As far as I understand you should have notified your insurance of the damage to the flat below when it first happened. I would if I were you contact your insurance company and give them the information and let them sort it out. The person below should also be contacting their insurance and they may just meet in the middle.
Hope that makes sense and you get the problem sorted.
The builder should be covered under his public liability insurance but as the damage was caused from water coming from your property, the guy below could, presumably, make a claim against you. If he did your insurers would then look to make a claim against the builder. I'd guess your best bet is to contact your insurance company and see what they say. If the builder didn't have public liability cover, it could be messy.
talking of home insurance - i just got mine though egg and it seemed cheap (for now)
orangebird
29-03-2005, 14:29
usual disclaimer, I am no expert at this, but it seems that both the downstairs tenant & the landlord are of the impression contents insurance works like car insurance - afaik it doesn't.
There is no claim that can be made against your insurance, as your contents were not damaged - the liabilty of your insurance company is solely to you, not to any third party.
The redress the other tenants have is with their insurance company & will entitle them to replacement of any items belonging to them, that were damaged as a result of the flood.
Similarly the landlord will need to pursue his own claim, either with his own insurers, or through the tradesmans public liability insurance (assuming self employed).
Not quite. For example, a friend of mine was walking his dog. The dog ran out into the road in front of a car. The dog not only lived but (being rather a solid little chap) made quite a lot of damage to the bumper and valance of the car, and my friend had a £700 repair quote to honour until he was advised that he could (and did!!) claim in thorugh his home insurance....
Still, in this case I would agree that the tradesmans insurance should cover the damage, not aliferstes... :shrug:
Not quite. For example, a friend of mine was walking his dog. The dog ran out into the road in front of a car. The dog not only lived but (being rather a solid little chap) made quite a lot of damage to the bumper and valance of the car, and my friend had a £700 repair quote to honour until he was advised that he could (and did!!) claim in thorugh his home insurance....
Still, in this case I would agree that the tradesmans insurance should cover the damage, not aliferstes... :shrug:
That would be the case if he has a combined home contents/liability insurance. I don't think you'd be able to claim that on just a home contents insurance
Edit: The dog's damage that is. I also think Aliferste should look at the tradesman's insurance
MovedGoalPosts
29-03-2005, 14:34
For a start, there should be two aspects of insurance cover on house / flat.
1) Buildings Insurance - this covers the structure (roof, walls, foundations etc) and built in fixtures and fittings that are part of the property - bathroom suite, kitchen fittings etc. Carpets and similar floorcoverings are removable and so not covered normally by buildings insurance.
2) Contents Insurance - this covers the removable possessions in the property - sofas, beds, books, carpets and curtains, appliances, etc
You then have to check the insurance policy to identify what losses are insured, and what excesses might apply. For buildings cover usual perils are damage by subsidence, fire, flood, storm. Escape of water may be covered. Contents cover may provide for theft, fire, flood and such like.
Many policies will have extensions to the policy for accidental damage. However you may find that when major building works are in progress, insurers want notification up front, as they know their risks can increase.
In law, as the work was carried out in your flat, and the resultant damage that occurred was from something "escaping" from your flat, you would be responsible, but then would expect to offset that against an insurer. Any responsible tradesman should have public liability insurance, thus you should be able to get him to claim on that.
To complicate things, in most buildings where there is more than one occupant, whilst each insures their own contents, it is usual for the buildings cover to be aranged and held jointly. Possibly this is done by the freeholder, who then claims the premium back from the leaseholders. However damage to the ceilings in the flat below would in the first instance be repaired under the buildings policy, and those insurere would then looks to your tradesman to reimburse them from his public liability cover.
SMHarman
29-03-2005, 14:42
Being as nothing of yours is damaged and needed to be claimed for you have no need to divulge your insurance details - yet.
Downstairs should claim on his contents insurance for anything damaged that is covered by the contents policy, and on the building insurance policy (probably shared by the leaseholders and held by the freeholder / managing agent) for the structural damage (roof, walls, kitchen cabinets etc).
When those claim forms are filled out there is a section asking whether there are any other policies that may be claimed on / other people that are liable. Downstairs should put the name of your tradesperson on that form in that box.
It is then up to the insurance company to
a) fix the problems with his property - restitution not betterment (unless the policy is new for old)
b) decide what action to take to recover costs from your tradesperson.
So really you should give downstairs your trades persons name and address and that is the end of your liability.
You may also have legal cover on your home policy (normally a £10-£15 addon that you get by default) - call them to confirm this is the action to take.
Also if you do get involved, your home policy has a significant level of third party liability cover that will cover this type of claim.
As far as I see it, its really nothing to do with you. The tradesman was working on your bathroom, which was his work area. He is covered there under his firm's public indemnity insurance. The fact that his boss went downstairs and agreed to sort it out, is very much an admission of guilt on their part.
The firm caused the damage and its upto them to put it right satistifactorily. That would mean downstairs sueing the building company, to get the repairs, id need be. Certainly don't give them your insurance details. If they want to claim on their own, and then retrieve the cost back, that's upto them, but not your bother. I doubt your insurance company would even entertain the quote anyway... Insurance companies never want to pay out as it is...
If I was you, i'd go downstairs, explain it all sympathetically, and offer to to help them out with going to court and making sure the buggers cough up. He should be a lot nicer to you after he realises you are trying to help him.
Janusian
29-03-2005, 14:44
Not a lot of people realise this, but your Home Insurance includes a section for public liability, which effectively covers you for claims made against you for negligent actions. It excludes acts arising from your occupation, or use of a motor vehicle as these should have more specific insurance. An example of a valid claim would be you scratching a car as you walked past, or knocking over someone whilst out jogging.
This particular instance is a bit more complicated as there are three potential insurances that could cover the loss.
The first port of call would be the Tradesmans insurance. He should have public liability insurance which covers him against such negligence. As it was his fault he was the 'proximate cause' of the loss.
Secondly you would have the building insurance of the block of flats. This would have cover for liability for losses arising from the use of the buildings, which would normally extend to include permanent fixtures and fittings
Thirdly you have your home insurance as mentioned above.
My advice would be notify your Home Insurers, as you would have a duty to do so under your policy, but to continue to push back on liability as it was not your fault. Provide the name and address of the contractor to the person who has suffered loss. If you do get letters from the third parties solicitor, do not answer them but pass them on to your own insurance company.
What may end up happening is that your insurers may deal with the claim, but then subrogate back against the 'proximate cause' in this case the plumber.
aliferste
29-03-2005, 15:19
Right, great!!
Thankyou all for your advice. I think what I need to do is contact my insurance company for a bit of advice. I was a bit wary of contacting them as insurance compainies can be a bit wary of phoning asking for advice.....been down that route before!!
It was the whole, him wanting my insurance details that was getting me. Not his insurance comany contacting me or anything!!
The landlord guy just seems shady!
talking of home insurance - i just got mine though egg and it seemed cheap (for now)
Sausage and Egg..... :)
ian@huth
29-03-2005, 16:02
The first rule of insurance is NEVER admit responsibility or liability. If the person below contacts you then ask him to put everything in writing and pass that letter unanswered to your insurance company. It is always wise to check with any tradesman doing work on your property that they are adequately covered with insurance that covers any accident or injury that is a consequence of their work. If the tradesman does not have insurance to cover the claim then you could be held responsible. The damage caused could be claimed against the tradesmans insurance, your insurance, the landlords insurance or the other occupiers insurance so it is wise to inform your insurers of the situation and leave everything up to them.
MetaWraith
29-03-2005, 19:20
Limited Liability means whatever happens is not covered.
aliferste
30-03-2005, 16:32
Right, I contacted my insurance company today and they put me on to the legal team. As I have my insurance cover with them I get free legal advice as well :) Halifax by the way!
Anyway, explained the situation and they are saying that it has nothing to do with me. The tradesman has basically accepted responsibility by saying he will fix the ceiling so it is now between the landlord downstairs and the tradesman.
Whoee :)
Right, I contacted my insurance company today and they put me on to the legal team. As I have my insurance cover with them I get free legal advice as well :) Halifax by the way!
Anyway, explained the situation and they are saying that it has nothing to do with me. The tradesman has basically accepted responsibility by saying he will fix the ceiling so it is now between the landlord downstairs and the tradesman.
Whoee :)
Nice one. I'd have a beer to celebrate. In fact I might join you :)
paulyoung666
30-03-2005, 17:21
Right, I contacted my insurance company today and they put me on to the legal team. As I have my insurance cover with them I get free legal advice as well :) Halifax by the way!
Anyway, explained the situation and they are saying that it has nothing to do with me. The tradesman has basically accepted responsibility by saying he will fix the ceiling so it is now between the landlord downstairs and the tradesman.
Whoee :)
hopefully thats the end of it then :erm: :tu: :D :D
aliferste
30-03-2005, 19:04
hopefully thats the end of it then
Not quite, I have still to write a letter to the landlord explaining this. I do not actually know his address....so I iether write a letter and put it through the guys door downstairs (addressed as confodential to the landlord) or I phone him up and ask for his address...
Hmmm what do you guys think?
aliferste
08-04-2005, 08:02
Oh it continues!!
The landlord telephoned me to say that we would be hearing from his lawyer. !!
Mr_love_monkey
08-04-2005, 08:48
Oh it continues!!
The landlord telephoned me to say that we would be hearing from his lawyer. !!
Maybe his lawyer is lonley and just wants someone to talk to? :)
MovedGoalPosts
08-04-2005, 09:00
Oh it continues!!
The landlord telephoned me to say that we would be hearing from his lawyer. !!
Not that surprising really. As the casue of the damage came from something that happenned in your flat, or escaped from your flat - as in the water, the bottom line expectation is that you will be the one responsible for ensuring the damage is repaired. Despite what your insurers legal advice line said, you will be the one in the firing line until the tradesman picks up the bill, or gets his insurers to.
You need to get proactive on this, it won't go away. Write a letter to the chap who sufferred damage, copied to the landlord, givin full details of the tradesman involved. State they should be claiming direct off him. At the same time put whoever provides your building's insurance on notice that there is a potential claim, perhaps copy them the letter too.
Exactly the same thing happened to me, i flooded my neighbour downstairs when getting a new bathroom plumbed in. The work required was covered under the landlords building insurance, all i had to do was pay a £100 excess(well, i didnt really as it was the woman downstairs who was putting in the claim but i felt morally obliged to pay it for her). The tradesman who caused the flood didnt even come into the equation.
You must be careful though, do not say that it was negligence on the tradesman's part, all i said that it was an existing pipe fitting that had burst and that the tradesman hadn't messed with the section of pipe that burst(which was about 50% truth). After that the insurance company for the landlord happily paid out. Either way, it shouldnt come back to you if it's a rented or a factored property(assuming it is a rented or factored property).
Your landlord should be covered under his own building insurance, any rented property i've stayed in the building insurance is included as part of the rent and i've only had to take out seperate contents insurance. Is this not the case with your rental agreement?
ian@huth
08-04-2005, 13:01
I wouldn't write to anyone. Just wait for something in writing coming to you and send this unanswered to your insurance company.
aliferste
08-04-2005, 13:09
I own my flat.
Right, I have done all these things. I have sent a letter, rather posted it through the guy downstairs stating everything that I was told to say by the lawyers....it is now two lawyers that have given me the same advice.
To put things in perspective the landlord downstairs seems a shady piece of work. Seemingly he has a "business" where he owns property. I asked him for a business address where I could contact him and he refused to give me this.....in the background I heard a guy going on about house insurance...sounded to me like a pal giving him advice. The landlord is probably around the 30 year old mark and acts like he knows the world but last night he was being very arrogant and to be honest very unreasnable. Basically the impression he was giving was that he was threatening me with the lawyer letter.
To give you some background a while ago we had a leaky pipe at the back of out flat and he claimed on our insurance then....it was a different situation as there was noone else involved. he got pretty much his whole flat redecorated off that. I think now he reckons he can get a whole new kitchen out of this and that is why he wants to go through mu insurance. The problem is the insurance company will not entertain him as it is between him and the tradesman. It should be the tradesman that he is sending the lawyers letter to not me in my view.
The other thing is I will now be moving in a few weeks and I am loathe to give him my new address as he is such a shady character.....the fact that he refuses to give me any contact details for him is just plain odd!!
Oh, it was the lawyer from my insurance company that advised me to put it in writing and send it to him stating that advice that I have been given!
A shady character indeed.
I don't think he has spoken to his lawyer. I think he is using the phrase 'you'll be hearing from my lawyer' because he thinks that will make you cave in.
If you are satisfied that you have given him all the information you were advised to give him by your own legal advisor, I would consider the matter closed - and tell him so, next time he contacts you.
I bet he will contact you again, and I bet he will repeat his threat. I also bet you will never get a letter from his lawyer, because his lawyer (if he ever asks one) will tell him what you were already told by your own lawyer!
Go ahead and move house, and don't tell him where you are. If he's just after a quick swindle, he may well decide it's becoming too much effort and give up trying to find you.
It all comes down to whether or not his insurance company can prove negligence on your part or the part of the tradesman. As long as you dont say anything and the tradesman hasnt admit liability(official i.e. in writing), 9 times out of 10 insurance companies dont even bother to pursue it because it is so costly.
If the tradesman has admitted liability(officially), then it should go through his insurance and be nothing to do with you. I take it though you dont have this tradesman's admission of liability in writing? If you dont then the tradesman could simply say it was nothing to do with him and then the onus is back on you im afraid, albeit you are back in the situation where his insurance company has to prove negligence on your behalf. It's very unusual for a tradesman to admit liability in the first place, they are the kings of the 'wasnt me' line, as it was with my tradesman, although I knew he was partly to blame but couldnt prove it. The insurance company asked me if either myself or the tradesman were at fault, I said no, they told me they would not be pursuing it any further.
I would be very surprised if his insurance company pursued a claim from you(assuming its not a huge damage claim), so i would advise you to deflect blame to the tradesman, deny responsibility and you probably wont be pursued.
You may want to cover any excess that the guy has, like I did with the woman downstairs from me, seeing that it wasnt her fault so she shouldnt be out of pocket, but thats up to you.
aliferste
08-04-2005, 13:56
I "think" that as the landlord is actually in negotiations with the tradesman to have his ceiling fixed.....and the fact that the tradesman is saying he will fix the damage is enough to say that he is admitting liability. Why else would he say he would fix it if it was nothing to do with him :confused:
The thing is there is absoultely nothing I can do.......even if I could "cave in" and do it through my insurance I cant as they say it is between the tradesman and the landlord and nothing to do with me. If it was just a case of letting my insurance do it then I probably would....but I cant.....which is why I dont understand what the landlord wants me to do .....if it is pay for the damage myself then he can take a run and jump :mad:
unless the tradesman admits liability in writing to the insurance company then he is not deemed liable. Of course your insurance will say its nothing to do with you, firstly because it isnt and secondly because they dont want to pay out. His insurance can either pursue you or the tradesman but as long as you insist that it was the tradesmans fault(which it was) then you will be ok and unless the tradesman admits liability officially, they probably wont pursue him either.
It is possible that the tradesman has no insurance(many dont) and so he is willing to fix it himself at his own cost so that he doesnt get 'rumbled'. That being the case, he would never admit liability to the guys insurance.
In a nutshell, unless its a massive damage claim, or someone admits liability the the guys insurance company wont pursue it, too much time and cost for them, they'll pay out and move on. Sounds like the guy knows this so he is now trying threatening tactics to see if you'll cough up. There's maybe even a chance he doesnt have insurance to claim against!!
Tell you what, just give the guy your insurance details and tell him to deal with your insurance company, after all, thats what you pay them for, to deal with these kind of things. I suspect that he would probably never contact them and even if he did, your insurance company will simply tell him to get stuffed unless they can prove you were solely liable for what happened. Either way, you've done all you can do and he has no cause to be on your back.
Make sure to smile smugly when you hand over the details to him.
SMHarman
08-04-2005, 14:19
As I said before - The guy downstairs should contact his contents / the building property insurers and get them out to fix the problem. He should provide them with the details of the tradesperson and then they can go and attempt recovery of their costs from this tradesperson. This will happen off-line after the problems with his flat have been fixed and not concern him.
I have a similar situation (new since the first time I posted on this thread) an oven repair guy has damaged my slate kitchen floor by scraping the oven over it. He's admited it is his fault - though the company he works for are so far silent.
Now I've spoken to the company and they seem positive that they will fix this, but it could get very expensive as it is virtually impossible to spot repair a slate floor (the slate delaminates / splits if you try to remove an individual tile - that and electric underfloor heating to complicate the matter).
So I pay £50 to my house insurers (mu policy excess), they fix the problem and they go after the contractor (which is even more fun as it is a subcontractor of a subcontroactor of the insurance company who the cooker wwty was through that did the damage).
Oh and the cooker wwty does not cover consequential damage, but this is IMHO a redherring as they did not exercise a duty of care to protect the floor while carrying out the repair.
Hey-ho - anyway tell your neighbour to stop harassing you for the accident, give him the contractors details and tell him to claim on his insurance. It will be quicker and easier for all of you.
MovedGoalPosts
08-04-2005, 14:26
Oh and just to throw a spanner in the works, if you own your property and are trying to sell it, be very careful that you don't create a neighbour dispute. Any such disputes would need to be declared to your purchaser, if they ask the you if any exist. Failure to do reply accurately would leave you open to claims from your purchaser, but admitting there is a dispute could be enough to loose you a sale.
aliferste
08-04-2005, 14:28
Will let you all know the next fun installment :)
SMHarman
08-04-2005, 16:28
If your neighbour downstairs called his insurance they would have a loss adjustor around to sort out the claim in days, ask him, what is the point of him buying insurance on the property if when accidents like this happen he will not claim.
aliferste
08-04-2005, 16:37
If your neighbour downstairs called his insurance they would have a loss adjustor around to sort out the claim in days, ask him, what is the point of him buying insurance on the property if when accidents like this happen he will not claim.
Exactly...........I am wondering if he actually HAS any insurance and that is why all this is happening!
SMHarman
08-04-2005, 17:32
Exactly...........I am wondering if he actually HAS any insurance and that is why all this is happening!
But the damage to the ceiling / walls / flooring is all buildings cover - that must exist - if not you should be equally worried - as would your mortgage provider. He can claim on that for the structural damage.
aliferste
09-04-2005, 15:25
Ah yes, and what do I find in my post today but a letter from his lawyers requesting my insurance details. It even says that it is because of damage to his bathroom when in fact it is damage to his kitchen!
SMHarman
09-04-2005, 22:14
Ah yes, and what do I find in my post today but a letter from his lawyers requesting my insurance details. It even says that it is because of damage to his bathroom when in fact it is damage to his kitchen!
Write back "Without Prejudice" at the top of whatever you write, asking why this is coming from his lawyers not his home contents insurers whom your lawyers (well your contents legal advice line) have advised should be dealing with this.
aliferste
09-04-2005, 22:20
Write back "Without Prejudice" at the top of whatever you write, asking why this is coming from his lawyers not his home contents insurers whom your lawyers (well your contents legal advice line) have advised should be dealing with this.
Thats the whole problem. I should be utterly out the loop altogether......why the heck should I reply as it has nothing to do with me. If you know what I mean :erm:
ian@huth
09-04-2005, 22:21
I wouldn't reply, just forward the letter to your insurers.
MovedGoalPosts
09-04-2005, 23:48
I wouldn't reply, just forward the letter to your insurers.
And the tradesman who actually caused the problem in the first place telling him to get his insurers involved.
SMHarman
11-04-2005, 09:39
Thats the whole problem. I should be utterly out the loop altogether......why the heck should I reply as it has nothing to do with me. If you know what I mean :erm:
True, but you need to extract yourself out of the loop. Ignoring the letter will not achieve that. As Ian and MGP also said - let your insurers and the tradesperson have a copy of the lawyers letter and your reply.
Janusian
11-04-2005, 13:55
I wouldn't reply, just forward the letter to your insurers.
It may well be a policy condition that if you do anything which could prejudice your insurers position then it may invalidate your cover, so I would say this is right thing to do.
SMHarman
11-04-2005, 14:17
True but saying you believe this is a problem for their insurers is hardly likely to "prejudice your insurers position [and] it may invalidate your cover"
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