View Full Version : 18mbps
eshaq786
15-03-2005, 21:20
http://www.ntl.com/locales/gb/en/investors/presentations/2004-4-Presentation.pdf
ADSL2+ is being trialled by NTL.
Nice, probably for Streaming Video over IP :):):)
I think the article alluded to that.
Hans Gruber
15-03-2005, 21:49
I like the sound of HDTV on demand :)
When will it be available?????
(fizzing at the bunghole...)
When when when when when?????
Sent this to adslguide, but needless to say the nobbers will ignore it as they have some odd reason to slate ntl at every opportunity.
The adsl2+ ntl news would go very nice above the stuff below they posted.
"The comments from a ntl spokesmans were interesting in the item: "BT's network is limited compared to that of cable. With all the other services coming on stream such as video on demand, the question is will 8MB be enough?". One hopes that ntl have noticed that the BT Group is planning to trial ADSL2+ during 2005, with plans to run it at up to 18Mbps."
etccarmageddon
15-03-2005, 22:20
but why would ADSL matter to NTL as their network uses Cable Modems and all that stuff? are they suggesting they will convert their broadband delivery method to ADSL?
eshaq786
15-03-2005, 22:31
It seems as though they will be deploying ADSL2+ over their cable network which is stupid as they couldve deployed DOCSIS 2.0 much more easily.
Will it have a 1gb per day cap?? :P
Someone had to say it!
ProfPete
15-03-2005, 22:48
Mmmmmmmmm 18mbps.... yum
I'll give 'em £40 a month for that, even with a 50gig/month cap :angel:
Will it have a 1gb per day cap?? :P
Someone had to say it!
:rofl:
ian@huth
15-03-2005, 22:52
but why would ADSL matter to NTL as their network uses Cable Modems and all that stuff? are they suggesting they will convert their broadband delivery method to ADSL?
It sounds like there could be a switch to DSL by NTL.
The point that has been missed in this thread though is the mention of VDSL2 which can give speeds of 100Mbps.
The other point is that a switch to DSL means different constraints on the system so the thinking behind caps will change.
Maybe its just speculation on capability?
After all, after 'the amount' they spent on the cable network why would they dump it? Would it really be more cost-effective to deploy bb over adsl2+, if not in the long run?
Edit: After reading the 'ntl's network advantage' part it could seem so,
��ntl (unlike US Cable and BT) use a "Siamese" cable in the accessnetwork which has both coax (HFC) and copper
��Historically, this architecture has provided ntl with a cost-effective platform for the delivery of broadcast video, traditional telephony and broadband services
��Going forward, this same combination gives ntl the competitive advantage of being able to deploy leading broadband technologies over coax and next generation DSLtechnologies over copper
Historically....Going forward...hmmm :scratch:
eshaq786
15-03-2005, 23:03
Maybe they thought it would cost more to go with DOCSIS 2.0 than using ADSL2+/VDSL2. Moving to DSL gives them better scope for future than DOCSIS unless they think about the unstandardised DOCSIS 3.0.
slowcoach
15-03-2005, 23:20
OK let's have that show of hands again.
Who is going to leave NTL and go to an ADSL ISP.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
OK let's have that show of hands again.
Who is going to leave NTL and go to an ADSL ISP.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
OOOOOOHHHHH ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME !!!!!!!
;)
Next they will be encouraging you to download. ;)
Next they will be encouraging you to download. ;)
Not me...
I will not be tempted...
:angel:
IF this ever happens it will certainly not be THIS year so it is pointless to even get excited by it all.
When I see things like this I think OOOOO GREAT!!!
But it takes an eterntiy to appear.
How fast can they get the existing infrastructure to run? They wil have to upgrade again to compete with 8mb from bt by autumn.
ian@huth
16-03-2005, 00:24
How fast can they get the existing infrastructure to run? They wil have to upgrade again to compete with 8mb from bt by autumn.BT haven't even started the 8Mb trials yet and if they are successful less than half their customers will be able to get 8Mbps and those that can will find it could drop to 2Mbps at peak times.
Who knows what NTL will be offering in 6 months time? Six months ago would you have thought that NTL would have a 3Mbps tier up and running by now.
Ignition
16-03-2005, 07:13
Maybe they thought it would cost more to go with DOCSIS 2.0 than using ADSL2+/VDSL2. Moving to DSL gives them better scope for future than DOCSIS unless they think about the unstandardised DOCSIS 3.0.
You love talking about DOCSIS standards both here and on ADSLGuide but don't seem to have followed my advice and actually read the standards. DOCSIS 2 is only relevant to increasing upstream capacity and offers no gains on downstream. DOCSIS 3 kit doesn't exist yet and isn't going to for a while so not really relevant.
Chances of ntl using unstandardised kit are zero, the standards are vitally important.
There's also a lot more to upgrades to DOCSIS 2 than just updating a line card.
Thread as a whole does it say that this will be used instead of the coax network? Anyone who thinks ntl are going to dump the 500+ uBR coax network, not likely :)
OinkyBoinky
16-03-2005, 07:57
Will it have a 1gb per day cap?? :P
hmmm... this is NTL, i wouldn't be surprised if it was 500mb per month...
Thread as a whole does it say that this will be used instead of the coax network? Anyone who thinks ntl are going to dump the 500+ uBR coax network, not likely :)
Especially after having spent tens of millions of pounds upgrading said 500+ uBR coax network..
handyman
16-03-2005, 13:05
Especially after having spent tens of millions of pounds upgrading said 500+ uBR coax network..
Even more so when the ubrs are £13,000 each (£65,00 0,000)
etccarmageddon
16-03-2005, 13:10
this is actually quite cunning. for high speeds the BT network is mostly out of reach compared to the NTL network by the stats on that report.
NTL have the upper hand in the current cable modem technology compared to current ADSL but they also have the upper hand in ADSL potential because they are in reach of almost all subscribers for high speeds.
Ignition
16-03-2005, 13:18
Even more so when the ubrs are £13,000 each (£65,00 0,000)
Tad more than that, and the sum you did is for 5000 uBRs, not 500.
Line cards are the most expensive bit, that and NPE card, which is 7k or so on its' own without the 4 line cards costing similar or the chassis, etc.
Graham M
16-03-2005, 13:21
Could NTL's exchanges support ADSL/ADSL2?
ian@huth
16-03-2005, 13:32
NTL have spent a fortune on the network and will have to continue spending to ensure that they stay competitive. They cannot just stop spending because something better is coming at some time in the future.
NTL need the coax network at this point in time and for some unknown period in the future. There may come a time in the future where it is not economical to retain the coax network.
One possible scenario is that the coax network is used to provide only core HDTV channels and a limited internet service via your television. Other TV channels, telephony and internet may all be provided via IP using ADSL2+ or VDSL2.
I would imagine that NTL are not going to divulge much until they are near to having a new delivery method working. How soon that may be is anyone guess but one thing is for sure. Cable companies are in a much better position to go forward than BT and unbundled ADSL providers.
th'engineer
16-03-2005, 13:47
Next they will be encouraging you to download. ;):LOL:
The trials were mentioned in the Q4 results yesterday.
In February 2005 ntl launched the UK's first ADSL2+ trial. The trial has proven that we can deliver broadband connections with downstream line rates in excess of 18 Mb/s without any modification to our copper infrastructure.
The ntl access network has deep fibre and short copper - we estimate that 95% of our copper loops are under 1km. As a result we can use advanced DSL technologies over copper, such as ADSL2+, to deliver 5 x the typical BT customer bandwidth to virtually all of our customers (i.e. 95%).
__________________
They also mention HDTV
In March 2005 we are also launching the first known UK trial, using this advanced DSL technology platform, to enable streaming of High Definition TV over an IP Broadband infrastructure.
I assume that the fact they trialled means they could run ADSL2+ in parallel with the CM network? Or was the trial run in isolation of the current network? Would be damn expensive to exchange all those STB's and CM's. Maybe they'd go down the same route as happened with CM originally and sell/rent the modems to customers, assuming it could run in parallel of course.
They won't get rid of the existing local network - at least not for a good few years - I expect the ADSL would run in parallel.
The ntl access network has deep fibre and short copper - we estimate that 95% of our copper loops are under 1km
The copper loops, would they be the bit that runs from the green cabinet down the road to my house, or could the green box down the road be connected via copper to somewhere else?
zing_deleted
16-03-2005, 20:14
BT haven't even started the 8Mb trials yet and if they are successful less than half their customers will be able to get 8Mbps and those that can will find it could drop to 2Mbps at peak times.
Bt have not trailed it yet but with a ruling from oftel bt now has to allow exchanges to add to the architecture which has seen ukonline and soon bulldog to offer 8meg now with ukonline going live at major exchanges by the end of may im from near coventry and we are getting it and we are only a town
I cant even set a quote properly someone shoot me lol lol lol lol
Edit (Paul) - Quote fixed.
Chrysalis
16-03-2005, 20:32
I hope it is parallel it would kind of suck to have only 1 cable provider in the whole of the uk.
eshaq786
17-03-2005, 00:34
If they start running DSL in the cabinets then would that mean OFCOM would force them to open it up to competition?
purenuman
17-03-2005, 00:52
If they start running DSL in the cabinets then would that mean OFCOM would force them to open it up to competition?
No!
If they were going to do it the delivery method of services would not even come in to it.
If NTLs network was once public property and was built with public funds then handed to them for next to nothing it would happen.
NTL would have to be recompensed (to a huge degree) if it was to happen now.......
Chrysalis
17-03-2005, 14:22
ofcom is nothing to do with public funds its to do with market share, NTL has a lot of broadband customers, I think so far they have been lucky with ofcom but if they did move over to DSL I am wondering how ofcom would react. Telecoms is a regulated market in both the regulator for fair competition and the government in the public getting a certian standard of service, eg. if BT who are currently regulated decided tommorow to stop all broadband services then someone would probably step in and change the law to so they have to provide it to be allowed to compete in the market. At this time this hasnt need to be done because broadband has been rolled out quite well.
purenuman
17-03-2005, 16:48
ofcom is nothing to do with public funds its to do with market share........
Correct it has nothing to do with public funds but if NTL had inherited their network at little or no cost they (Like BT) would have been forced to open it up. The fact that NTL spent millions and millions on building/buying the network will mean they don't have to open up IMHO...
Ofcom is about fairness for consumers and businesses......not punishment for investment.
What on earth makes you think a company that spends so much on something should be forced to share it with companies who have invested nothing??
The delivery method of services has nothing to do with it either.
the BBC has picked up on this with further clarification.....
Even though NTL is a cable company its network also has the copper wires needed to provide ADSL.
One of the issues with the technology is that the speeds it can deliver deteriorates the farther the home is away from the network's access point.
In this, NTL claims an advantage over BT because 95% of the 7.9 million homes its network passes are within 1km of the access point compared to 5% of BT's customers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4355665.stm
i want high speed! :D
Chrysalis
17-03-2005, 17:30
Correct it has nothing to do with public funds but if NTL had inherited their network at little or no cost they (Like BT) would have been forced to open it up. The fact that NTL spent millions and millions on building/buying the network will mean they don't have to open up IMHO...
Ofcom is about fairness for consumers and businesses......not punishment for investment.
What on earth makes you think a company that spends so much on something should be forced to share it with companies who have invested nothing??
The delivery method of services has nothing to do with it either.
I never said NTL should be made to share the DSL if they invest their, but ofcom might make them do it. BT will argue they have invested in upgrading the exchanges and have been forced to allow all isp's to sell that service. NTL with over 1 million broadband users will find it hard to argue their point for been excempted.
Ofcom are just their for fair competition not for consumers eg. they have been making BT keep prices higher then they need to be so the competitors using datastream can compete, the > £1 gig traffic prices we seen floating around are due to ofcom, actual cost to BT wholesale is 10-20% of that.
purenuman
17-03-2005, 18:02
Ofcom are just their for fair competition not for consumers eg. they have been making BT keep prices higher then they need to be so the competitors using datastream can compete, the > £1 gig traffic prices we seen floating around are due to ofcom, actual cost to BT wholesale is 10-20% of that.
They have stopped them selling the service cheaper than they let their competitors have it :D
etccarmageddon
17-03-2005, 18:24
I thought regulation was about protection against abuse of a dominant market position rather than who originally financed the infrastructure.
Ignition
17-03-2005, 18:37
It's about whether or not a company has been assessed to have SMP - Significant Market Power.
At the moment neither ntl nor Telewest are classed as having this as they don't cover enough of the UK, simple as.
They could offer fibre to the arse of everyone in their areas and it wouldn't change the fact they don't have access to enough of the population with their networks to be considered to have SMP.
When they merge no doubt this will be reconsidered but at the moment that's the way it is.
purenuman
17-03-2005, 18:46
I thought regulation was about protection against abuse of a dominant market position rather than who originally financed the infrastructure.
Yes a position BT were in because they didn't spend on the network they inherited so the had the use of something that, it was decided, others should be allowed to use for a service charge.
Maybe NTL will at some point be made to open up the network but I would doubt that would happen until after they have cleared their huge debts accrued acquiring/building the network. If it was forced on then NTL would be at a huge disadvantage.......... unless they could charge huge service charges and that kind of makes it pointless.
I think NTL will open up their network, in one way or another (like with AOL), way before being forced to.
Chrysalis
17-03-2005, 21:15
yeah ignition is right, if ntl rolled out the dsl just in current areas I think ofcom wouldnt do anything, but if they expanded into new areas giving ntl more coverage then ofcom would possibly reevaluate.
ian@huth
17-03-2005, 23:08
yeah ignition is right, if ntl rolled out the dsl just in current areas I think ofcom wouldnt do anything, but if they expanded into new areas giving ntl more coverage then ofcom would possibly reevaluate.I don't think it very likely that NTL would cable up any new areas in the foreseeable future.
Chrysalis
17-03-2005, 23:45
not talking about cabling I am talking about dsl, when NTL released that document about unbundling exchanges it mentioned NTL exapnding coverage with LLU, so it is possible NTL could use this is areas that havent been cabled so they can provide broadband in new areas.
ian@huth
18-03-2005, 00:12
not talking about cabling I am talking about dsl, when NTL released that document about unbundling exchanges it mentioned NTL exapnding coverage with LLU, so it is possible NTL could use this is areas that havent been cabled so they can provide broadband in new areas.I thought this thread was about ADSL2+ on NTLs infrastructure. :)
NTL are going down the LLU avenue in non cabled areas which is another story altogether.
Chrysalis
18-03-2005, 14:23
yes I am talking about ADSL2.
Was it said that this will only be in cabled areas?
ian@huth
18-03-2005, 14:40
yes I am talking about ADSL2.
Was it said that this will only be in cabled areas?NTL will take advantage of any available technology whether it be on-net or off-net. The ADSL2+ trials were on NTL infrastructure which can support ADSL2+ at 18Mbps and beyond to the 95%+ homes that are under 1km from the fibre network. BT local loops only have around 5% of homes within 1km and therefore performance will degrade beyond this distance. This gives NTL an enormous advantage over current day xDSL providers.
Chrysalis
18-03-2005, 17:38
Yeah on this point BT are in trouble, NTL have a better fibre network putting most customers within reach of the high speeds.
So when do we get it??
No really, an answer from someone working for NTL would be great on this. How far off is this?? 6Months? 1Year? More?
Am I asking to much? Hehehe.
purenuman
18-03-2005, 18:02
So when do we get it??
No really, an answer from someone working for NTL would be great on this. How far off is this?? 6Months? 1Year? More?
Am I asking to much? Hehehe.
You are soooooo asking for a "Coming soon" reply :)
this was just a trial this speed was achieved through copper lines, however whether the speed of 18mbps is achievable in multi user application remains to be seen.
the financial prospects for NTL to be competative and become a leader in providing services such as 'high speed' internet and 'on demand' functions such as also HDTV are mammoth, achievable, but the company needs to realise this is a big oppertunity for itself, it just depends on how much investment is required to get the nessecary kit to customers, modems, boxes, to feed the signals for HDTV or a modification to standard 'cable' modems..
lets hope NTL dont sit on this one!
will it mean that customer services will get better, will it mean less complaints, will it mean less outages and will it mean less email problems with ntl
bob_builder
22-03-2005, 12:21
There is a new article on the register saying that NTL will be offering 24 Mbps ADSL2+ to its cabled homes:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/22/ntl_adsl2/
DocDutch
22-03-2005, 12:44
hmm Bob thats nice reading there mate...just hope that NTL will do this before BT sets up their ADSL2 as it would mean that NTL would for a change have the better and faster service.
we'll see how this goes and what NTL will do...for say a 18mbps connection I wouldnt mind paying the extra few quids that are needed, the 1 thing I do hope that this kind of change would bring is higher upload speeds.
purenuman
22-03-2005, 12:56
hmm Bob thats nice reading there mate...just hope that NTL will do this before BT sets up their ADSL2 as it would mean that NTL would for a change have the better and faster service.
we'll see how this goes and what NTL will do...for say a 18mbps connection I wouldnt mind paying the extra few quids that are needed, the 1 thing I do hope that this kind of change would bring is higher upload speeds.
NTL is to launch an all-out assault on BT, in an aggressive marketing campaign against rival broadband providers.
From mid March, NTL intends to "match or beat ALL BT Broadband products on price, speed and usage allowance", according to a leaked memo
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/16/ntl_bt_assault/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/16/ntl_bt_assault/)
BT has received a verbal kicking
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/14/bt_upgrade/
With their speculation of BT making ADSL2+ available towards the end of the year, makes the timescale to speculate on this happening interesting...
bob_builder
23-03-2005, 19:21
There is an article on Digital Spy stating that NTL are trialling HDTV VOD over ADSL2+:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds20194.html
Anyone else getting excited??
I hope this is not going to be an age off in coming. After being behind the rest of the world for so long it finally seems as thought we are making some headway.....
eshaq786
25-03-2005, 01:04
This year should be a good year. Very exciting indeed.
my only concern is WILL NTL act upon the results of the trial, i imagine that HDTV or 'media streaming' services will be high on their list of uses, so is economic viability, i really wish we would see better and higher speeds of broadband.
eshaq786
25-03-2005, 01:47
We'll just have to wait and see. Telewest always lead NTL in the speed race when it comes to the top tier.
jrhnewark
25-03-2005, 02:24
What was that rumour I heard about Telewest @ 8Mbps by the end of the year? :D
Ignition
25-03-2005, 05:30
We'll just have to wait and see. Telewest always lead NTL in the speed race when it comes to the top tier.
Let me just have a think about which of them beat the other by 6 months to 1Mbit :scratch:
Always is 'always' a dangerous word to use ;)
__________________
What was that rumour I heard about Telewest @ 8Mbps by the end of the year? :D
Not true, they are trialling 10 in the second half of the year, nothing has been mentioned about potential product launches though.
jrhnewark
25-03-2005, 05:57
Not true, they are trialling 10 in the second half of the year, nothing has been mentioned about potential product launches though. Ahh, thanks for that. :) Thought it might have been my imagination running wild again with those sorts of speeds AND ntl paired together! :erm: :p:
Ignition
25-03-2005, 06:20
Ahh, thanks for that. :) Thought it might have been my imagination running wild again with those sorts of speeds AND ntl paired together! :erm: :p:
Sorry to urinate on your bonfire some more but nothing has been said about the ADSL2+ being trialled for anything other than delivery of HDTV as yet. I don't know anything about it but would ahve thought that's how it'll stay even if it becomes a live product, no chance of the uBRs being made redundant that quickly, there's tons of them.
bob_builder
17-05-2005, 10:44
NTL completes ADSL2+ broadband trials
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/72650/ntl-completes-adsl2-broadband-trials.html
NTL has completed its ADSL2+ broadband and TV-over-IP trials, which began in March.
The cable franchise has demonstrated that its existing copper network is capable of supporting both broadband connections up to 18Mbps and HDTV (high-definition television).
The first commercially available ADSL2+ services are on-track for 2006, with BT and Easynet also conducting trials.
The technology has a theoretical upper limit of 24Mbps, though speeds around 18-20Mbps are more likely.
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