View Full Version : Secondary school behaviour
A question aimed mainly at our resident teachers & teenagers.
My eldest started secondary school last Sept. He's quite bright (straight fives at SAT's) and we went for a local state school with pretty reasonable results (at least the year before he started).
Problem is he gets frustrated by the attitude of a minority of his class and the lack of control some of the teachers have. In some of the classes it sounds like very little work is achieved because the teacher spends the whole time trying to control the troublesome elements. Even in Maths where he has been 'top-setted' some of the rowdy element have also been put into the top set.
It's even got to the stage where (he says) one of the teachers asked the class why they don't behave better like <my son>! What better way to hack off a 12 yo than hold him up as a shining light, ready to be bullied down:shocked:
Is there a general problem across the state system of rowdy children disrupting those that want to learn, or are we likely to be able to find a teaching 'nirvana'?
If there is such a thing, how do we find it?
Should we expect the school to able to do something about it?
Is there less of a problem in private schools? We thought about the local Catholic boys school but were not convinced about the ethos of the school (we are not Catholic, but they select children from any faith).
TIA
A question aimed mainly at our resident teachers & teenagers.
My eldest started secondary school last Sept. He's quite bright (straight fives at SAT's) and we went for a local state school with pretty reasonable results (at least the year before he started).
Problem is he gets frustrated by the attitude of a minority of his class and the lack of control some of the teachers have. In some of the classes it sounds like very little work is achieved because the teacher spends the whole time trying to control the troublesome elements. Even in Maths where he has been 'top-setted' some of the rowdy element have also been put into the top set.
It's even got to the stage where (he says) one of the teachers asked the class why they don't behave better like <my son>! What better way to hack off a 12 yo than hold him up as a shining light, ready to be bullied down:shocked:
Is there a general problem across the state system of rowdy children disrupting those that want to learn, or are we likely to be able to find a teaching 'nirvana'?
If there is such a thing, how do we find it?
Should we expect the school to able to do something about it?
Is there less of a problem in private schools? We thought about the local Catholic boys school but were not convinced about the ethos of the school (we are not Catholic, but they select children from any faith).
TIA
In your particular case have you discussed the issues you raise with (a) the teachers concerned. (b) the Headteacher or (c) a school governor. If so what was their response.
:)
In your particular case have you discussed the issues you raise with (a) the teachers concerned. (b) the Headteacher or (c) a school governor. If so what was their response.
:)
Parents evening coming up in a week or so. Just gathering input from the CF first.
Is there a general problem across the state system of rowdy children disrupting those that want to learn, or are we likely to be able to find a teaching 'nirvana'?
If there is such a thing, how do we find it? If you can, send him to private school. :(
Is there a general problem across the state system of rowdy children disrupting those that want to learn, or are we likely to be able to find a teaching 'nirvana'?
If there is such a thing, how do we find it? If you can, send him to private school. :(
Agreed but I think it's just that 12-15 is a funny age for most kids really.
Parents evening coming up in a week or so. Just gathering input from the CF first.
Rather than wait it might be better to raise your concerns now. Remember, that Parents evenings are attended by many like you and time may not be sufficient and you may get a rushed response.
Most teachers are only too happy to talk to parents.
:)
Is there a general problem across the state system of rowdy children disrupting those that want to learn, or are we likely to be able to find a teaching 'nirvana'?
If there is such a thing, how do we find it?
Should we expect the school to able to do something about it?
TIA
Yes,yes and yes...
The second one could be as simple as going approaching the school.However in the long run I reckon anyone who can afford private should do so.Mind be careful because I've heard of two private schools that have just closed mid term...Without being able to return any school fees :(
Unfortunately there are a small element of bright kids(usually boys) that aren't really keen to work and are entirely disaffected.These are the ones the school regards as redeemable(unlike the ones who have a lower ability and are far more likely to find themselves excluded).Not fair I know but that's the reality.Just keep complaining and if his education is affected see if he can have extra mentoring lessons provided.Most schools have such 'clubs' these days.
Sorry I can't be more helpful. :(
I know what your son is going through becuase I too remember being in that situation. I wanted to work and instead of being able to carry on teaching the lesson, the teacher would have to tell the other kids off, and the lesson would degrade from there on.
I actually remember a Science teacher who decided to transform her lesson into a dating game with a host and audience which played on getting the chemicals together. Anyway, the point is, it was so childish that all the kids loved it as it was simple. I wanted to be doing more propper work and found it ridiculous when we were meant to be doing GCSE year eleven work. The kids that disrupt the class just spoil it for all those that wish to work and get good grades.
Its very annoying and I felt really fustrated at times.
I'd try and ask if maybe those kids could get put into a different set or your child moved into a higher set where there is less disruption.
Raise the point at one of the Parents and governers evenings and definately speak to the head teacher and see what he/she has to say about it all.
Macca371
07-03-2005, 18:42
Yes, the problem is there and in my experience at school it has gotten worse, the way the staff are treated by the year below us was quite shocking. It's very hard to do well or get down to work when there are chavs giving cheek to the teachers and being a nuisance. It took about 15 minutes for the teacher to calm the class down before anything was actually taught, which is a huge waste of time. I don't think most pupils actually had the incentive to learn or succeed; school to them is about enjoying yourself. Which is why people like that should be kicked out. If you wanted to do well and work hard then you had to not care in the slightest about your 'image' towards the chavs (80% of my classmates were chavs, even though I was in the top sets), because anyone who works hard and actually doesn't try and make a fool out of the teacher on a regular basis is branded a geek so many talented people don't even try, which is a shame. Luckily enough, I didn't give a **** about this and tried my hardest. I wasn't bullied or anything because they knew I didn't care what they thought but many people were constantly harassed and so didn't try. It is a hard place to be if you want to do something with your life. But yeah, anyway, that was my school. And if I ever have children you can bet your bottom dollar I'll send them to a private school even if I have to work hard for the money.
__________________
(This was a catholic school also, by the way)
Yes, the problem is there and in my experience at school it has gotten worse, the way the staff are treated by the year below us was quite shocking. It's very hard to do well or get down to work when there are chavs giving cheek to the teachers and being a nuisance. It took about 15 minutes for the teacher to calm the class down before anything was actually taught, which is a huge waste of time. I don't think most pupils actually had the incentive to learn or succeed; school to them is about enjoying yourself. Which is why people like that should be kicked out. If you wanted to do well and work hard then you had to not care in the slightest about your 'image' towards the chavs (80% of my classmates were chavs, even though I was in the top sets), because anyone who works hard and actually doesn't try and make a fool out of the teacher on a regular basis is branded a geek so many talented people don't even try, which is a shame. Luckily enough, I didn't give a **** about this and tried my hardest. I wasn't bullied or anything because they knew I didn't care but many people were constantly harassed and so didn't try. It is a hard place to be if you want to do something with your life. But yeah, anyway, that was my school. And if I ever have children you can bet your bottom dollar I'll send them to a private school even if I have to work hard for the money.
__________________
(This was a catholic school also, by the way)
Sounds bad- we were sure that when we were first years, we were never as bad as the last lot of first years (7 years later), the standards of discipline and lack of respect have definitely gone down.
And we couldn't really blame chavs at our school either, because there weren't any...
Electrolyte01
07-03-2005, 19:22
The old "can't you be like...." line, I got that a few times and it got me a BAD rep by some students (that's how it ended up in my being bullied through out high-school).
I used to be bright, until the bullying kept dragging me down (I still get it at college, but not physical, as they know I would smack them in the mouth).
Rather than wait it might be better to raise your concerns now. Remember, that Parents evenings are attended by many like you and time may not be sufficient and you may get a rushed response.
Most teachers are only too happy to talk to parents.
:)
Totally agree - see the school/ teachers NOW (or write) and say that you would like an answer soon so that you can discuss their reply at the parents eveing. Personally I find the Year Head is often the best contact.
allieyoung666
07-03-2005, 20:17
I think you need to be going to the school and having a word, as that is not on at all. Me and my twin are both bright and one day the teacher singled me out. From that day on I was bullied, it knocked my confidence and self estem and to be honest I have never got over it. I suffer from depression and I have done since the age of 12 and my parents blamed the teacher. So yes please go and see the head, you need to sort this out now. Some teachers could not care less I do not mean you incogintias!!!!! But their attitiudes make me sick. My eldest son who is 8 is in the advanced calss at maths and he got teased, but I soon sorted that out!
The quickest way to deal with bullying is to go up to the school or to be constantly on the phone to the head of year.It's what I did when my son was bullied.Mind the fact I was a teacher gave me a certain clout as well.Not available to all I'm sorry to say.
I can only say that teachers try their best these days to sort out bullies but when one is being 'bullied' by the students one's self it is hard to sort it.There are too many parents who won't allow little Jonny to be punished in anyway.
Now I can't even keep a child at break times or for a short while after school while 'we' discuss their bad behaviour UNLESS I book it in advance with a letter home.That takes at least a week and by that time little Jonny has had several more lessons with me and has completely forgotten the reason why he has detention. :rolleyes: That instant 10 minutes at the end of the day was so useful! Delayed punishment does not work.
Now I can't even keep a child at break times or for a short while after school while 'we' discuss their bad behaviour UNLESS I book it in advance with a letter home.That takes at least a week and by that time little Jonny has had several more lessons with me and has completely forgotten the reason why he has detention. :rolleyes: That instant 10 minutes at the end of the day was so useful! Delayed punishment does not work.
You've gotta be joking- although sadly I don't think you are.
In my opinion, that is absolutely ridiculous: and furthermore, I don't think if I was a teacher I'd be able to help myself not to give little Jonny a *******ing for his own sake if nothing else.
Political correctness gone totally insane. No wonder we have chavs and a distinct lack of discipline in kids.
allieyoung666
07-03-2005, 21:07
Bring back the cane!!!!!! and the rounders bat!!!!!!
Bring back the cane!!!!!! and the rounders bat!!!!!!
Rounders bat??? :Yikes: Where the hell did you go to school? :D
allieyoung666
07-03-2005, 21:20
Sorry that was when I was at my catholic primary school, St Patricks, the last year before you go into secondary school. We had this irish teacher who loved to use the rounders bat if you were bad!!!!!!!! And he used to bang it on the besk if we did not do as we were told!!!!!!
Macca371
07-03-2005, 21:43
One of my friends has got a permanent scar on his finger from when my Physics teacher whallopped him with a ruler only a few years ago! Who said there's no discipline these days! :D But in this case the teacher didn't mean it and was aiming for the table to scare him.
But seriously I think that there is definately a lack of discipline in schools nowadays. If misbehaviour continues at the current trend then this surely will be a chav nation, and classes will be completely uncontrollable.
allieyoung666
07-03-2005, 21:50
One school that is near to us got shut as one of the lovely chav boys decided to set fire to the chemistry lab!!!!! I would not have dared done that, me mum would have killed me for a start. You never know his dad might of given him 4cans of Carling for doing it!!!!!!!
The quickest way to deal with bullying is to go up to the school or to be constantly on the phone to the head of year.It's what I did when my son was bullied.Mind the fact I was a teacher gave me a certain clout as well.Not available to all I'm sorry to say.
I can only say that teachers try their best these days to sort out bullies but when one is being 'bullied' by the students one's self it is hard to sort it.There are too many parents who won't allow little Jonny to be punished in anyway.
Now I can't even keep a child at break times or for a short while after school while 'we' discuss their bad behaviour UNLESS I book it in advance with a letter home.That takes at least a week and by that time little Jonny has had several more lessons with me and has completely forgotten the reason why he has detention. :rolleyes: That instant 10 minutes at the end of the day was so useful! Delayed punishment does not work.
God, at the school I went to, if you misbehaved and only got a 10 minute detention, you were lucky. Generally they gave out detentions of either 30 minutes or 1 hour. If you were really bad, they added another 30 minute or 1 hour detention the next day (and so on). We also had the continuing threat of the cane (although, to my knowledge, that was never used) or, for PE, if we fell behind in our cross-country (well, cross-town) 1.5 or 2.5 mile run, we got smacked with a hockey stick across the back of the knees (that actually happened to me, God it hurt).
Having said that, when I went there, my old school had just converted from a Grammar school to a Comprehensive school and still had the old procedures in place.
On a more contemporary note, we have found at work (dealing with students) the you can impose any rule you want, but if you cannot use some form of punishment if it is broken, it's pointless. I don't necessarily agree that smacking people around is the best form of enforcement, but, for me and my friends at least, detention did work.
God, at the school I went to, if you misbehaved and only got a 10 minute detention, you were lucky. Generally they gave out detentions of either 30 minutes or 1 hour. If you were really bad, they added another 30 minute or 1 hour detention the next day (and so on). We also had the continuing threat of the cane (although, to my knowledge, that was never used) or, for PE, if we fell behind in our cross-country (well, cross-town) 1.5 or 2.5 mile run, we got smacked with a hockey stick across the back of the knees (that actually happened to me, God it hurt).
Having said that, when I went there, my old school had just converted from a Grammar school to a Comprehensive school and still had the old procedures in place.
On a more contemporary note, we have found at work (dealing with students) the you can impose any rule you want, but if you cannot use some form of punishment if it is broken, it's pointless. I don't necessarily agree that smacking people around is the best form of enforcement, but, for me and my friends at least, detention did work.
I was referring to the 10 minutes straight after school ON the same day detention that was allowed until this year.You could not keep them for longer than 10 minutes without sending notification home.Now that's finished.So consequently all detentions are now as far as I'm concerned for a full hour.If I have to fill in the form then they have to do the time.... ;) As for break time detentions well if I have to fill in a form forget it.I'll have the break as I only get two 20 minute breaks anyway.No lunch hour here.
The problems will arise when those parents who insisted that little Jonny have break time detentions instead of after school because they wanted little Jonny home on the dot,find that teachers aren't going to play ball anymore. ;)
I frankly wonder about some parents and what they think we can achieve within the limited punishments available? :(
Why don't they make their kids behave so they don't have to get detentions anyway? Chav parents who don't care about their kids until they're in trouble [when they have a mardy] p-155 me off.
Rounders bat??? :Yikes: Where the hell did you go to school? :DMy Infants school used a (small) criket bat. :erm:
Actually, Incog, I was agreeing that punishments today don't seem hard enough. I can't comment for sure on the state of schools, as I don't go to one, and don't (currently) know any kids that do, but when I left school (back in '87), our school was strict and did do the stuff I outlined. Maybe we should return to the old ways (partially anyway).
Actually, just remembered another punishment. Our old German teacher (I say old, he was in his 40s when he taught me) had an unusual punishment. If he heard anyone talking, he would flick a piece of chalk at them. He aimed for (and usually hit) the soft flesh around the eye of the person talking. Of course, that is assualt (so I don't condone it) but it did guarantee noone talked in our German class.
Actually, Incog, I was agreeing that punishments today don't seem hard enough. I can't comment for sure on the state of schools, as I don't go to one, and don't (currently) know any kids that do, but when I left school (back in '87), our school was strict and did do the stuff I outlined. Maybe we should return to the old ways (partially anyway).
Actually, just remembered another punishment. Our old German teacher (I say old, he was in his 40s when he taught me) had an unusual punishment. If he heard anyone talking, he would flick a piece of chalk at them. He aimed for (and usually hit) the soft flesh around the eye of the person talking. Of course, that is assualt (so I don't condone it) but it did guarantee noone talked in our German class.
CHALK!!! In my day it were those hard heavy WOODEN blackboard erasers.Everyone learned to duck after the first day in school. :rofl:
CHALK!!! In my day it were those hard heavy WOODEN blackboard erasers.Everyone learned to duck after the first day in school. :rofl:
Apparently he had been banned from throwing board erasers (too expensive or something)
homealone
09-03-2005, 21:01
Apparently he had been banned from throwing board erasers (too expensive or something)
see things have changed - we used to have to give the board rubbers back ;) :D
Apparently he had been banned from throwing board erasers (too expensive or something)
see things have changed - we used to have to give the board rubbers back ;) :D
With the proliferation of white boards in schools the kids are more likely to hold the "eraser" ransom as some boards refuse to work if the rubber isn't within a certain distance of the whiteboard :p:
homealone
09-03-2005, 22:26
With the proliferation of white boards in schools the kids are more likely to hold the "eraser" ransom as some boards refuse to work if the rubber isn't within a certain distance of the whiteboard :p:
you dangle your dongle where you want ;)
- but I would like to have a play with the system, mrs gaz has me on a 'need to know' basis, atm, though. ;)
you dangle your dongle where you want ;)
- but I would like to have a play with the system, mrs gaz has me on a 'need to know' basis, atm, though. ;)
Well as usual the kids love to play with them but the staff avoid them like the plague.
Me! I'd love to be able to play but when I cover in the Languages and the Maths departments where the boards are they take the laptops away and the pens that write on the electronic boards....Dog in a manger bunch...They never use em so they won't let me.... :(
So I'm reduced to scrabbling for an ordinary whiteboard pen. :( Never any of them around either.
So there are days when I'd be happy with ordinary old chalk and blackboard....Sigh!
Mind the worst are the overhead projectors.Useless piece of junk..You can never focus them or the transparency is too dark or the bulb is barely working or you can't get it to project onto a whiteboard or wall because the hinge is broken and it will only point upwards. :mad:
Then on top of all this one has to teach and keep discipline..:rolleyes:.
Technology...you can keep it..well some of it. ;)
Projectors on whiteboards rather than screens are awful anyway. The best way is using powerpoint but then, you can print that onto acetates anyway. Whiteboards are crap because it's nigh-on impossible finding a frigging pen that works, or doesn't die after that board-wiping stuff hasn't dried and you've tried to write with it. The bane of society.
Plus there's finding a colour. Blue pens are bitty, black isn't dark enough, red's bad when there's a light shining on it but fine otherwise, and green's totally illegible. Whereas on a blackboard, most colours are fine.
I haven't even mentioned TV and video's...
with those one has to hide the remote.... :D Oh and hope someone has left the key so you can either get it out of the cupboard or so you can unlock the plate that covers the VCR.
Then one has to hope like hell that no one has been playing with the wires, or that the last supply teacher hasn't altered the video channel settings. :rolleyes:
Anyway I'm off to bed because another day at the whiteboard beckons tomorrow. :tu:
I haven't even mentioned TV and video's...
with those one has to hide the remote.... :D Oh and hope someone has left the key so you can either get it out of the cupboard or so you can unlock the plate that covers the VCR.
Then one has to hope like hell that no one has been playing with the wires, or that the last supply teacher hasn't altered the video channel settings. :rolleyes:
Anyway I'm off to bed because another day at the whiteboard beckons tomorrow. :tu:
Ours couldn't ever work the frigging video anyway.
[BTW- what do you teach?]
homealone
10-03-2005, 00:06
used properly, the 'whiteboard' is a revalation, if not a revolution, in education.
- live learning via the internet in little window on the left/right/middle ?
used properly, the 'whiteboard' is a revalation, if not a revolution, in education.
- live learning via the internet in little window on the left/right/middle ?
No blackboards are well better. You can pick up the runtiest bit of chalk and write straight away, and most colours are visible. Whereas with whiteboards you have to faff around with finding which pens work and making the board clean so there's no crappy residue stopping the pens working or the wet stuff that you have to use is dry before you write on it again, and making sure you don't mash the tip on the pen, things like that.
Never get any problems like that with a blackboard.
homealone
10-03-2005, 00:30
No blackboards are well better. You can pick up the runtiest bit of chalk and write straight away, and most colours are visible. Whereas with whiteboards you have to faff around with finding which pens work and making the board clean so there's no crappy residue stopping the pens working or the wet stuff that you have to use is dry before you write on it again, and making sure you don't mash the tip on the pen, things like that.
Never get any problems like that with a blackboard.
true you don't get problems with a *real* blackboard (ours were green & on a roller, btw Gaz)
dilli-theclaw
10-03-2005, 08:34
I was 'bad' only once at school - and I got the cane for it, I never did it again.
edit - this was WITH my parents permission (which I agree with now)
used properly, the 'whiteboard' is a revalation, if not a revolution, in education.
- live learning via the internet in little window on the left/right/middle ?
Yeah well only if you're not a technophobe. :D
And for those who wonder what we are talking about just do a search for electronic or interactive whiteboards. ;)
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