View Full Version : The future
As we know plusnet are rolling out 8mbit in april, but come the autumn when bt afaik, are rolling out 8mbit how will ntl counter this?
NTL have to be able to compete with BT...question is, is the cable system, in its current state, capable of 8mbit nationwide? As they like to be one step ahead, is it capable of even faster than that?
orangebird
18-02-2005, 12:03
Until 8meg is available to as many homes as ntl's bb passes, I can't see the problem. :shrug:
I think it's going to be a very small percentage of BB users that want 8mbit.... The way people on here bleat on about 8meg, you'd think it was the be all and end all of every BB users requirements. And it's not.
SMHarman
18-02-2005, 12:09
http://www.rr.com/rdrun/
Roadrunner in the US have just increased their cable ISP service to 5Mbs, being as they are on a similar technology platform it would seem there is scope to remain a step ahead for the forseeable future.
Of course when the limits of twisted pair ADSL and coax are reached, NTL/TW will find a find a Fibre to the Home roll out for LAN speed WAN easier as fibre penetrates further into their network than BT.
I have to agree with OB here - the vast majority of BB users are not interested in an 8M service (as I recall, only about 5 - 10 % are currently on the top 1.5M now).
You also have to bear in mind that having an 8M line does not mean you will get 8M downloads. Very few internet servers have the capability to serve this sort of speed to multiple end users.
But having the option of 8Mb is a hell of a marketing tool tho!, Ntl were quick enough to send out their press release saying they are rolling out 3mb upstaging BT....., it also keeps the prices in check, 39.99 for an 8mb connection against 37.99 for a 3mb one, which one would you choose ?
orangebird
18-02-2005, 13:34
But having the option of 8Mb is a hell of a marketing tool tho!, Ntl were quick enough to send out their press release saying they are rolling out 3mb upstaging BT....., it also keeps the prices in check, 39.99 for an 8mb connection against 37.99 for a 3mb one, which one would you choose ?
But I don't need 8mb. So why would I pay out £2 more for it? :shrug:
I didnt say you needed 8mb im saying that you will at least have the option, its all about top trumps really, ISP's are always wanting to out do each other for speed, service etc...What im saying is for your extra £2 a month you would have an additional 5mb bandwidth, I would say £2 a month for 5mb extra is a hell of a deal....Whether YOU want it or not a lot of people will take it...
if you used that logic why would ntl have a 3mb connection ?, would it be because people want that extra speed....
orangebird
18-02-2005, 13:44
I didnt say you needed 8mb im saying that you will at least have the option, its all about top trumps really, ISP's are always wanting to out do each other for speed, service etc...What im saying is for your extra £2 a month you would have an additional 5mb bandwidth, I would say £2 a month for 5mb extra is a hell of a deal....Whether YOU want it or not a lot of people will take it...
Sorry but we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think it will be a very tiny minority of the bb using public that will want 8meg, or actually have the need for 8meg.
But having the option would be nice....with ntl you don't have that option. If you take the scenario with the mobile phone companies, why would i for example pay 37.99 for a contract with 200 text message a month and 100 minutes usage when i can get 900 minutes a month with a 1000 text messages for an additional 2 quid...makes it simple really.
it is a wee bit like a mcdonalds supersize, for 20p extra you get bigger fries and drink, so most people go for it, it is only 20p for extra.
a good marketting ploy, and people who is not that clued up on the internet will probably go for it.
I must admit I am happy with my 750k connection, and looking forward to the increase to 2mb in march, when it gets upgraded, but not looking forward to the cap.
ik
orangebird
18-02-2005, 13:50
But having the option would be nice....with ntl you don't have that option. If you take the scenario with the mobile phone companies, why would i for example pay 37.99 for a contract with 200 text message a month and 100 minutes usage when i can get 900 minutes a month with a 1000 text messages for an additional 2 quid...makes it imple really.
But there's not point on spending time and money an an option that only a tiny percentage would take. ntl's for the masses.
As for your mobile analogy, no, I wouldn't take 900 minutes and a 1000 text at £2 more, becuaser I know I wouldn't use it. What's the point in paying for something I'll never use? AFAIC, that's just having eyes bigger than your belly. Or more money than sense.
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 13:51
As we know plusnet are rolling out 8mbit in april, but come the autumn when bt afaik, are rolling out 8mbit how will ntl counter this?
NTL have to be able to compete with BT...question is, is the cable system, in its current state, capable of 8mbit nationwide? As they like to be one step ahead, is it capable of even faster than that?
The other question is whether the BT system is capable of rolling out 8Mbit nationwide. The answer if you don't already know is they aren't. I am sure Chris T would be first in the queue if he thought 8Mbit would be available to him at home but I can't see him queueing. :)
Maybe not but you seem to be a little strange....
orangebird
18-02-2005, 13:57
Maybe not but you seem to be a little strange....
:confused:
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 14:03
:confused:
I think he is referring to my username. I have just had it changed from ianathuth to ian@huth as some people have difficulty in spelling the original. :) :) Does look strange though.
Yes but if bt targets consumers with 8mb with mass media and what not, ntl will have to respond, just to be able to offer a service that can compete. Purely for the sake of 'we are better than you'.
Ian do you mean they aren't able to roll it out nationwide due to the line requirements or because they don't have the capacity or have to equipment?
As for your mobile analogy, no, I wouldn't take 900 minutes and a 1000 text at £2 more, because I know I wouldn't use it. What's the point in paying for something I'll never use? AFAIC, that's just having eyes bigger than your belly. Or more money than sense.
I agree that it doesn't make sense and I wouldn't do it BUT I do know people who would. My Dad is a good example - He currently has a nice shiny new XP SP2 PC with DVD burners etc and if he could he would be running Wordperfect for Dos on it :erm: :rolleyes: He has the money so he likes to know that he is buying nice "good quality" 'toys' even if he won't use a fraction of the features.
sorry mate it does look strange, got taken out of context their....:-)
seaneeboy
18-02-2005, 14:15
But having the option of 8Mb is a hell of a marketing tool tho!,
Speaking as a marketer, it isn't really... having competitive entry and mid level packages are a MUCH stonger marketing tool... Compare BTYahoo! to the proposed new entry level NTL package, NTL comes out very well indeed...
mentalis
18-02-2005, 14:16
It seems to be the case that as speeds increase, so do the download caps, so instead of thinking of £2 a month as extra bandwidth, how about as extra download (e.g. 50Gb instead of 30Gb ) - in that case I would consider paying extra (even more if there was no limit)
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 14:22
As speeds increase there is the small minority of customers still trying to max that out who put even more of a strain on their ISPs infrastructure and purse.
But thats the point if I pay for a 2mb connection i want to use it as much as possible, why because im paying for it...
SMHarman
18-02-2005, 15:04
But there's not point on spending time and money an an option that only a tiny percentage would take. ntl's for the masses.
As for your mobile analogy, no, I wouldn't take 900 minutes and a 1000 text at £2 more, becuaser I know I wouldn't use it. What's the point in paying for something I'll never use? AFAIC, that's just having eyes bigger than your belly. Or more money than sense.
But many would, penis dangling performance. The ISP happily takes your extra £2 a month and most users carry on using the same traffic as before, so more money for no further investment.
orangebird
18-02-2005, 15:09
But thats the point if I pay for a 2mb connection i want to use it as much as possible, why because im paying for it...
And therein lies the difference between customers like you and me. I use the resource I need. Others use it just because it's there. :)
im just glad im out of contract now with ntl, when and if they enforce the caps i can switch to whichever adsl supplier i please, some of those on this board do not have that option.
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orangebird:
And therein lies the difference between customers like you and me. I use the resource I need. Others use it just because it's there.
What the hell does that mean, i pay just as much as you do, so why the hell shouldnt i use what i have paid for ?, the fact you don't just lines ntls coffers.
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 16:03
But thats the point if I pay for a 2mb connection i want to use it as much as possible, why because im paying for it...What you are (or will be) paying for is contended share of a service with a maximum 2Mb burst speed. This service has an AUP and terms and conditions which stipulate what you can use your connection for and how it can be used. Contention is there to enable the service to be offered at the price it is. Usage has to be controlled to enable the service and price to be maintained at an acceptable level. There are two ways that usage can be controlled, by the user voluntarily or by the ISP. As a proportion of users are not willing to control their usage voluntarily then the ISP has to take over control one way or other. ISP control will upset some users but will ensure a better service for the majority of users.
That i understand, what i dont understand is why ukonline can give me 8mb with a 500gb a month cap for £39.99 surely then the same applies to ukonline, or it is just a limitation of ntl's network.
But thats the point if I pay for a 2mb connection i want to use it as much as possible, why because im paying for it...
I have to agree with that
When I originally signed up, it was advertised as unlimited, i.e, no restrictions, then they went ahead and slipped in the hidden clause about using to much
If they're service can't cope with what they originally offered, they shouldn't have offered it in the first place.
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 17:01
That i understand, what i dont understand is why ukonline can give me 8mb with a 500gb a month cap for £39.99 surely then the same applies to ukonline, or it is just a limitation of ntl's network.UKonline will also for a limited time give you a £69.99 wireless router if you sign up. To me that says that they are trying to gain market share and they are paying to do so. How long will that price, speed and usage allowance be sustainable? Some questions to ask yourself include, what speed can I actually receive at my address both at quiet off-peak times and during busy peak times. How long will it be before they start ensuring that the service is profitable and alter usage allowances or take other action to achieve that end.
If you look at most companies they give special offers to new customers to tempt them onto their products. Are these offers profitable and sustainable? I think you know the answer to that. :)
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I have to agree with that
When I originally signed up, it was advertised as unlimited, i.e, no restrictions, then they went ahead and slipped in the hidden clause about using to much
If they're service can't cope with what they originally offered, they shouldn't have offered it in the first place.It may have been feasable at the time you ordered, particularly if you were amongst the first to subscribe. Time changes things though and no one can predict what the future holds. If you look at cable infrastructure in places like Leicester and parts of London it was put in place at a time when no one envisaged that there would ever be more than 50 TV channels and cable broadband internet was not even a consideration. Time has proved that assumption wrong and those early cable adoption areas are suffering badly and need loads of cash spending on them.
Yes but i dont have to buy their router, i have an adsl router and a quick look through any online computer store will tell you that you can have one from £25, so how does your statement add up answer it doesnt.
btw how much are ntl's "wireless" routers ?
Secondly, its not on a yearly contract, i could go either ukonline or plusnet, plusnet being a 1 month contract..so either way its a hell of a lot better than ntl.
And easynet tempting users hahahahaha yeah they have more money than ntl do so where that statement comes from god knows.
Easynet havent been through chapter 11, dont owe god knows how many billions....
As we know plusnet are rolling out 8mbit in april, but come the autumn when bt afaik, are rolling out 8mbit how will ntl counter this?
NTL have to be able to compete with BT...question is, is the cable system, in its current state, capable of 8mbit nationwide? As they like to be one step ahead, is it capable of even faster than that?
Now whats the max distance from the exchange for 8 meg. Not that far if i remember correctly. It will never be available for everyone on adsl for a long time.
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btw how much are ntl's "wireless" routers ?
Wireless router for £25.00 quid please show me :)
£65.00 including the first 54 meg card and installation in the area i work. I know as its me that fits them :).
This is true it won't be available for everyone those who are lucky enough to live 2.5 miles from the exchange it will be available, but then again when broadband was first released not everyone could get a 1mb connection after and on the cusp on 3 miles now they can....technology moves forward very quickly when the demand is their...
Check ebay mate, pick up a 11mbit wireless router on their for 25 easily, the cable modem ones you can pick up for 24.99 i was just curious to see how much ntl charge for them..
This is true it won't be available for everyone those who are lucky enough to live 2.5 miles from the exchange it will be available, but then again when broadband was first released not everyone could get a 1mb connection after and on the cusp on 3 miles now they can....technology moves forward very quickly when the demand is their...
Think the laws of physics come into play here :). I think you will find it takes a lot longer to overcome this problem
hehehe your right their, but not impossible tho!
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 18:05
Yes but i dont have to buy their router, i have an adsl router and a quick look through any online computer store will tell you that you can have one from £25, so how does your statement add up answer it doesnt.
btw how much are ntl's "wireless" routers ?
Secondly, its not on a yearly contract, i could go either ukonline or plusnet, plusnet being a 1 month contract..so either way its a hell of a lot better than ntl.
And easynet tempting users hahahahaha yeah they have more money than ntl do so where that statement comes from god knows.
Easynet havent been through chapter 11, dont owe god knows how many billions....
Nobody has to buy their router at the moment, they are giving it away FREE. Are they doing that out of the goodness of their heart or is it to tempt customers onto their network? If their service was as good and sustainable as you think and so much better than anyone elses then there would be no reason for giving such freebies. :confused:
ian@huth i wasnt talking about the ntl router ?, anyways its not a router its a cablemodem ntl do not give routers away free try to stay on thread..
You also have to bear in mind that having an 8M line does not mean you will get 8M downloads. Very few internet servers have the capability to serve this sort of speed to multiple end users.
Of course, anything using Akamai servers will be able to provide way in excess of 8Mbps. Mmmmâ₠¬Ã‚¦ 8Mbps iTunes Music Store downloadsââ‚ ¬Â¦ :drool:
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 18:28
ian@huth i wasnt talking about the ntl router ?, anyways its not a router its a cablemodem ntl do not give routers away free try to stay on thread.. :Yikes: :Yikes: RTFT (read the thread) and try to improve your attention span. :) :)
Sorry just getting ready to go out, been running round a bit, apologies..#
I think Ignition wrote it was ~2km for 8mbit? I'm 2.1km straight line from my exchange, i would be able to see the exchange from my house if it wasn't for some mini wood in my way.
The straightline distance would go straight across fields, where as the road which the cable would be planted in (?) goes round, so its like that is the hypotenuse of a triangle and the roads, the other parts - no 8mbit for me i guess :/
ian@huth
18-02-2005, 18:49
If you have a BT phone or a near neighbour has you can check the line length using details from http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/t181.html
Hmmm, having read through the thread that I posted the link to it appears that this may no longer work. It did a couple of years back when I had a BT phone and tried it but only having a NTL phone now I can't check. Possibly it was being over used with people wanting to check their line length for broadband and BT now have a different number for the checks.
ProfPete
19-02-2005, 01:36
The way people on here bleat on about 8meg, you'd think it was the be all and end all of every BB users requirements. And it's not.
I can assure its not the be all and end all
I demand at least 10mbps :angel:
...and still wouldn't be happy until 20, would be content with 50 though :D
But then I am spoilt with a gigabit of connectivity for part of the week... :hyper: :spin:
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You also have to bear in mind that having an 8M line does not mean you will get 8M downloads. Very few internet servers have the capability to serve this sort of speed to multiple end users.
Very few is probably right. But the important ones (ftp.mirror.ac.uk and ftp.blueyonder.co.uk) do. Infact both will throw out WAY more than that, as both myself and Ignition can prove...
Yes, those all important linux ISOs that everyone claims to sit around all day and night downloading (and uploading? ;) ) can be transferred in under a minute :Yikes:
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Out by a factor of 10 I'm afraid. Its closer to 200metres, maybe 300 metres.
Or am I thinking of how far ADSL2+ and VDSL will work?
slowcoach
19-02-2005, 03:59
That i understand, what i dont understand is why ukonline can give me 8mb with a 500gb a month cap for £39.99 surely then the same applies to ukonline, or it is just a limitation of ntl's network.
I wish they could give it to me, 1.94Km from exchange (straight line), new wires to house when exchange was upgraded to ADSL, MAX speed available 512Kbs. :mad: Perhaps the reason that they can offer 8Mb without overtaxing the infrastructure is that only a percentage will be able to get it. :rolleyes: If NTL offered 8Mb everyone paying for it would expect to get 8Mb, therein lies the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M
You also have to bear in mind that having an 8M line does not mean you will get 8M downloads. Very few internet servers have the capability to serve this sort of speed to multiple end users.
Also lets not forget the NNTP servers that go a lot faster than that!
No im not referring to NTLs News Servers:td:
In fact the more I look at other Broadband providers the more I think NTLs caps are laughable......
Lets just hope they dont enforce them too harshly :dozey:
gooner4life
19-02-2005, 10:59
BT will have fibre to the home before NTL or Telewest id wager a fair few quid on that.
ProfPete
19-02-2005, 14:40
Also lets not forget the NNTP servers that go a lot faster than that!
Oh no, not that old chestnut again :Yikes:
I remember arguing about the use of NNTP for binary distribution at least 5 years ago, when 512k was considered fast. The costs for the provider were massive then and still are now. Its just too inefficient and wasteful a distribution method...
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BT will have fibre to the home before NTL or Telewest id wager a fair few quid on that.
OK, I'll double. :cool:
Can't see BT rolling out fibre to more than the most selective city centre locations (LLU coverage as of 12 months ago) for at least a decade. They don't have fibre anywhere NEAR the customer. Telewest and NTL have fibre within 500metres of 40% of the UK population already. I think that gives them a good base to start from!
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Or am I thinking of how far ADSL2+ and VDSL will work?
Oops, just noticed my dodgy quoting in that last post. The first line of the reply somehow became the quote :dunce:
gooner4life
19-02-2005, 18:01
OK, I'll double. :cool:
Can't see BT rolling out fibre to more than the most selective city centre locations (LLU coverage as of 12 months ago) for at least a decade. They don't have fibre anywhere NEAR the customer. Telewest and NTL have fibre within 500metres of 40% of the UK population already. I think that gives them a good base to start from!
Read up on the BT 21st Century Network, planned to be completely in place by 2009.
gallego1
19-02-2005, 20:04
It nice reading about everyones desire for 2mb and 8 mb BB but I am still on 56k dial up because of where i live ( and probably evermore unless i change my providor)
I would like any increase even the 300kb service
gooner4life
19-02-2005, 20:32
It nice reading about everyones desire for 2mb and 8 mb BB but I am still on 56k dial up because of where i live ( and probably evermore unless i change my providor)
I would like any increase even the 300kb service
Thats what puzzles me though, why dont you change provider?
ProfPete
19-02-2005, 23:32
Read up on the BT 21st Century Network, planned to be completely in place by 2009.
That's a replacement of the backhaul to put telephony on an IP network. Only a very small trial of loop access on two exchanges. And we all know what happens when BT trial stuff...
gallego1
20-02-2005, 08:53
Thats what puzzles me though, why dont you change provider?
Why should I pay for 2 providors for my phone service.??!!!
gooner4life
20-02-2005, 09:10
Why should I pay for 2 providors for my phone service.??!!!
I dont follow you here, why should you pay NTL for a dated service, why not get BT and ADSL?
SMHarman
20-02-2005, 17:29
I dont follow you here, why should you pay NTL for a dated service, why not get BT and ADSL?
Why is NTLs voice network dated just because they have taken a coax route to move data, not ADSL. That is the technically superior route to take (even though their implementation may not be great at times).
JohnHorb
20-02-2005, 17:32
Think the reference is to the fact that Sarf London can't get broadband.
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