View Full Version : segregation
apologies if im a little agressive in my posts :)
cat stevens the former pop singer who quit his career to follow the religion islam has urged american muslims to build 'religious schools'
he now uses the name yusuf islam
he and other parents who met each sunday decided to start there own school which started back in 1983
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_815288.html?menu=
now this is interesting plenty of segregation going on here so take children out of mainstream school and put them in a muslim school what for ?
is it going to give them a better lifestyle a better surrounding just because they 'hang around' with there own people
i for one think that mixing with all races types of people actually is a better experiance so you dont grow up to be an absoloute idiot living in a world where you cant comminicate efficently and carrying out simple tasks with others
And your evidence that they can't carry out simple tasks with others is?
Bill Gates is a mere pourper compaired to the Sultan Of Brunei, and the rest of the Arab Oil Barrons.
You can't force people to like each other. As far as I've seen, mixed communities don't bread tolerance, and in many cases racisium and resentment.
Originally posted by cjll3
You can't force people to like each other. As far as I've seen, mixed communities don't bread tolerance, and in many cases racisium and resentment.
well seeing it in action im afraid i disagree not in most cases
Originally posted by cjll3
You can't force people to like each other. As far as I've seen, mixed communities don't bread tolerance, and in many cases racisium and resentment.
I take it you're too young to remember Apartheid?
nighthawk
02-09-2003, 08:40
How can splitting children up at school be of any help?? If we teach children as young as 5 that different people must go to different places we will never get rid of Racists.
Originally posted by cjll3
Bill Gates is a mere pourper compaired to the Sultan Of Brunei, and the rest of the Arab Oil Barrons.
Hardly a fair comparison. Bill G earned his money through marketing his company and software well. The oil barons got their wealth through being born near to the world's largest oil supply. I am not knocking any of them, but you have to admit luck played a large part in their fortune.
I agree with kronas, segregation is bad. People should mix so they can learn to get along.
Originally posted by scastle
Bill G earned his money through marketing his company and software well
I'm glad you put Bill's success down to marketing and not quality ;)
I agree with kronas, segregation is bad. People should mix so they can learn to get along.
No, forced segregation is bad. And forced mixing is equally bad. There are some very fundamental differences between cultures and religions that the western liberal world-view finds it impossible to get to grips with. The assumption is that if we are all forced to mix together, we will learn to get along. There is no evidence at all that this view is valid. In fact all it does is seed resentment as people who have been brought up immersed in one culture are suddenly cast adrift in another (and have no doubt, such fundamental differences between cultures, even those living side by side in the UK, do exist).
Or, when a Muslim (or a Christian for that matter) has to sit through a science lesson given over entirely to one view of creation, namely the dominant atheistic one, which does not even acknowledge the existence of alternative explanations. Say what you like about the creation/evolution debate, denying the existence of a view other than your own is hardly honest.
Bearing all this in mind, it's hardly surprising that people of one minority or another want to educate their children separately. The problem is that when people say 'it's best if they mix', what they really mean is 'it's best if they get immersed in our way of looking at things'. This is subtle racism of a very dangerous kind - the kind that forced native Americans to follow 'the white man's path' and the kind that resulted in the forced adoption by white families of mixed-race aboriginal children in Australia.
Originally posted by towny
I'm glad you put Bill's success down to marketing and not quality ;)
I could hardly put it down to quality. Microsoft have released some terrible software... :D
No, forced segregation is bad. And forced mixing is equally bad.
True. I actually meant forced segregation.
nighthawk
02-09-2003, 11:20
IMHO Segregation is never good, all it creates is a lasting impression in our childrens mind that they are different from others.
Schools should be there to teach facts & nothing more. It is the parents job to teach morals & religion. I went to a non-denomenational school, i was taught about all religions & was never once told that one was better than the rest or that one was the onl correct one.
At the same time i was brought up by my family in the church of scotland. I still follow the beleifs taught to me by my family & the church, the way i was taught in school has not affected my religious beliefs, but it did teach me what the other religions in the world believe in.
Originally posted by Russ D
I take it you're too young to remember Apartheid?
Are you suggesting that great social improvements such as a girl is more likely to be raped then to learn read, a population with 20% HIV infection are what South Africans wanted from political freedom?
Originally posted by scastle
Hardly a fair comparison. Bill G earned his money through marketing his company and software well. The oil barons got their wealth through being born near to the world's largest oil supply. I am not knocking any of them, but you have to admit luck played a large part in their fortune.
No, Bill G had the good fortune that the guy who ran Digital Research was out of the office when IBM rang ;)
Originally posted by kronas
i for one think that mixing with all races types of people actually is a better experiance so you dont grow up to be an absoloute idiot living in a world where you cant comminicate efficently and carrying out simple tasks with others
I'm assuming you went to a segrated school then? If not then I'd suggest that Cat Stevens is totally justified in what he's done.
cjll3 saidAre you suggesting that great social improvements such as a girl is more likely to be raped then to learn read, a population with 20% HIV infection are what South Africans wanted from political freedom?
I don't think Apartheid can be blamed for all thats going on in South Africa, adults are having sex with children believing they are less likely to catch aids. Crime is also a big problem in the major cities with tourists also suffering from sex attacks/rape.
I understand the slave trade is still big business in Africa, I read recently that the price for a slave is less than most of us earn in a week. It's nothing to do with mixing races but everything to do with Drugs, Money and exploitation!
I'm not sure what the relevance of South Africa is to all this?
AIDS is a big problem in Africa. South Africa is suffering in particular because of some bizarre Government policy decisions. It has nothing to do with apartheid.
In any case, apartheid is of limited use as an example if we're talking about segregated schools because the nature and scale of the segregation was entirely different.
Originally posted by towny
I'm not sure what the relevance of South Africa is to all this?
AIDS is a big problem in Africa. South Africa is suffering in particular because of some bizarre Government policy decisions. It has nothing to do with apartheid.
In any case, apartheid is of limited use as an example if we're talking about segregated schools because the nature and scale of the segregation was entirely different.
I would like to know how the average man in the street life has been improved by the removal of Apartheid.
Originally posted by cjll3
I would like to know how the average man in the street life has been improved by the removal of Apartheid.
Well, not being legally classed as not as good as a white man is a good start. Not having to go to a different (and inferior) hospital perhaps. Having the right to vote, and the possibility of rising to power and leading your country maybe?
Originally posted by towny
Well, not being legally classed as not as good as a white man is a good start. Not having to go to a different (and inferior) hospital perhaps. Having the right to vote, and the possibility of rising to power and leading your country maybe?
Being as good as a white man ... South Africa despite all it's resources still has very high levels of poverty and destitution
Better hospitals ... currently unable to stem the rising tide of HIV infections
Being able to vote ... means a lot to somebody who's been raped
Rising to power ... difficult to achive, only one person can be Prime Minister at any given point, and since South Africa's life expentancy is one of the lowest on the planet few people will ever live long enough
Originally posted by kronas
apologies if im a little agressive in my posts :)
cat stevens the former pop singer who quit his career to follow the religion islam has urged american muslims to build 'religious schools'
Is it really a serious problem. There are 51 states each with their own local curriculum and policies. And of course every US schoolchild swears allegiance to the flag every morning. So it all depends what he has in mind and where he wants to start.
Originally posted by cjll3
Being as good as a white man ... South Africa despite all it's resources still has very high levels of poverty and destitution
Better hospitals ... currently unable to stem the rising tide of HIV infections
Being able to vote ... means a lot to somebody who's been raped
Rising to power ... difficult to achive, only one person can be Prime Minister at any given point, and since South Africa's life expentancy is one of the lowest on the planet few people will ever live long enough
Apartheid was only stopped a few years ago. While Apartheid was still functioning (if that is the right word) the South African government spent a lot of money on the white minority, but almost none on the black people. Because they don't have infinate amounts of money to spend, it may well take decades to bring the facilities previously used by black people to the same standard as those used by white people.
That's without the time needed for the population's attitude to change.
I'm not saying that the government have always got it right (they did refuse help with Aids), but it will take a long time to undo the damage caused by Apartheid.
Originally posted by scastle
Apartheid was only stopped a few years ago. While Apartheid was still functioning (if that is the right word) the South African government spent a lot of money on the white minority, but almost none on the black people... but it will take a long time to undo the damage caused by Apartheid.
OK here goes. I was one of those who campaigned against Apartheid in SA in the old days and very happy when Mandela became president. But right now I can only say I'm very disappointed that Mbeki remains silent in regard to abuse of human rights and breakdown of the rule of law in Zimbabwe. Whilst Mbeki continues this silence and inaction I'm very sure that it won't be long before what happens in Zimbabwe now will visit SA later.
Incidentally, segregation, I'm not sure that the policy adopted by the ANC to discriminate against minority ethnic groups in SA and favour black applicants for jobs is one that is justified any longer.
Originally posted by cjll3
Being as good as a white man ... South Africa despite all it's resources still has very high levels of poverty and destitution
Better hospitals ... currently unable to stem the rising tide of HIV infections
Being able to vote ... means a lot to somebody who's been raped
Rising to power ... difficult to achive, only one person can be Prime Minister at any given point, and since South Africa's life expentancy is one of the lowest on the planet few people will ever live long enough
These are serious problems but you have not demonstrated how they are worse as a result of apartheid being removed. Apartheid did not prevent crime or disease and its removal has not caused it.
I don't recall anyone saying that ending a fundamentally unjust system of racial segregation would be a magic solution to all that society's ills.
Originally posted by towny
AIDS is a big problem in Africa. South Africa is suffering in particular because of some bizarre Government policy decisions. It has nothing to do with apartheid.
Not so much the govornment policies but the backward, thick as sh*t beliefs of some/a lot of the indigenous peoples.
Originally posted by towny
Well, not being legally classed as not as good as a white man is a good start. Not having to go to a different (and inferior) hospital perhaps. Having the right to vote, and the possibility of rising to power and leading your country maybe?
Agreed. However I would like to point out that the hospitals and living conditions for black people were the best in Africa (with the possible exeption of Zimbabwe) during apartheid.
Originally posted by towny
These are serious problems but you have not demonstrated how they are worse as a result of apartheid being removed. Apartheid did not prevent crime or disease and its removal has not caused it. the removal of apartheit has increased the crime rate. It's the same in the former soviet block- removing the iron fist of that authority has caused an explosion in criminal activity which is only now starting to decrease slowly.
I don't recall anyone saying that ending a fundamentally unjust system of racial segregation would be a magic solution to all that society's ills. Absolutely. Both systems had to go. It's just that the transition to normality is painful.
Originally posted by Ramrod
the removal of apartheit has increased the crime rate. It's the same in the former soviet block- removing the iron fist of that authority has caused an explosion in criminal activity which is only now starting to decrease slowly.
I stand corrected ... and on the issue of what caused the AIDS epidemic, certainly lack of education is a problem, but Mbeki's refusal to accept that AIDS is caused by HIV can't have helped.
Originally posted by towny
These are serious problems but you have not demonstrated how they are worse as a result of apartheid being removed. Apartheid did not prevent crime or disease and its removal has not caused it.
I don't recall anyone saying that ending a fundamentally unjust system of racial segregation would be a magic solution to all that society's ills.
Yes, but you start asking the average black man in the street whether life is better under democratic rule or not, I very much doubt if he'll say yes life is better!
Read the statistics, 20% infected with HIV, the highest crime rates in the world, women are more likely to be raped than learn to read.
And you blissfully ignore the fact that conditions got a whole lot worse after the end of Apartheid. They may eventually improve, but I bet most South Africans are not holding their breaths.
Originally posted by cjll3
Yes, but you start asking the average black man in the street whether life is better under democratic rule or not, I very much doubt if he'll say yes life is better!
Read the statistics, 20% infected with HIV, the highest crime rates in the world, women are more likely to be raped than learn to read.
And you blissfully ignore the fact that conditions got a whole lot worse after the end of Apartheid. They may eventually improve, but I bet most South Africans are not holding their breaths.
I'm not disagreeing with any of the statistics you have posted about the current state of South African society. What I want to know is, do you think South African society as a whole was better off under a system of racial segregation?
Originally posted by towny
I stand corrected ... and on the issue of what caused the AIDS epidemic, certainly lack of education is a problem, It's also about changing peoples social and cultural beliefs but Mbeki's refusal to accept that AIDS is caused by HIV can't have helped. God yes! What a pillock!
Originally posted by towny
What I want to know is, do you think South African society as a whole was better off under a system of racial segregation? At the moment, I think that it was!:shrug: But who knows, maby the aids epedemic would have happened anyway even if apartheit was still operating.
I think that SA is better off without apartheit in the long run though because now the country can develop normally (just as long it dosn't develop in the same way as most other African countries):(
Originally posted by Ramrod
At the moment, I think that it was!:shrug: But who knows, maby the aids epedemic would have happened anyway even if apartheit was still operating.
I think that SA is better off without apartheit in the long run though because now the country can develop normally (just as long it dosn't develop in the same way as most other African countries):(
When I said 'as a whole' I was thinking more holistically ... including things like fundamental rights and equality. Crime may have made a temporary hike but fundamentally South African society was sick to the core thanks to its political system. From that point of view I can't accept that things are overall worse now.
It's a bit like saying that Germany was a great place in 1938 because of Hitler's social and economic reform programme. Never mind the minor fact that he created all this by making the Jews scapegoats for everything...
timewarrior2001
02-09-2003, 15:24
Ok AIDS has ALWAYS been a massive problem in Africa in general anyway.
As for the statistics, I'd imagine that since apparteid ended, more rapes are actually reported.
No black woman was ever going to report a white man for rape years ago.
If you went to SA and asked people in the street if they wanted to go back 20 years, you would be lynched.
Segrgation is pointless, it breeds ignorance and intolerance.
If Muslims want to be treat differently in the US, I suggest they move to a Muslim country no one gets special treatment in the US.
Originally posted by towny
When I said 'as a whole' I was thinking more holistically ... including things like fundamental rights and equality. Crime may have made a temporary hike but fundamentally South African society was sick to the core thanks to its political system. From that point of view I can't accept that things are overall worse now.
It's a bit like saying that Germany was a great place in 1938 because of Hitler's social and economic reform programme. Never mind the minor fact that he created all this by making the Jews scapegoats for everything... I was thinking of it purely from the point of view that a lot of black people are now under the death sentence that is hiv and aids. I'd rather be shackled and alive than free and dying fast.
Otherwise, socially and freedom wise, I totally agree with you.
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
No black woman was ever going to report a white man for rape years ago.
No, she would have. And he would have got some sh*t for it as well.
philip.j.fry
02-09-2003, 16:51
Originally posted by towny
Or, when a Muslim (or a Christian for that matter) has to sit through a science lesson given over entirely to one view of creation, namely the dominant atheistic one, which does not even acknowledge the existence of alternative explanations. Say what you like about the creation/evolution debate, denying the existence of a view other than your own is hardly honest.
To some extent I agree, however, evolution is based in science so deals with scientific facts so befits a science lesson. Whereas the creationist theory has little if any scientific basis to back it up so would not suit a science lesson but instead should be included in Religeous Education (something which is equally important as science, a firm grounding in all major religions might help promote tolerance a little more).
Originally posted by philip.j.fry
To some extent I agree, however, evolution is based in science so deals with scientific facts so befits a science lesson. Whereas the creationist theory has little if any scientific basis to back it up so would not suit a science lesson but instead should be included in Religeous Education (something which is equally important as science, a firm grounding in all major religions might help promote tolerance a little more).
Organisations such as the Creation Science Movement would beg to disagree with you. This isn't the thread for a debate on creation and evolution; all I'm saying is the alternative view/explanation exists yet is not even mentioned in order to try to disprove it. They just pretend it doesn't exist. This is dishonest.
philip.j.fry
02-09-2003, 17:26
Originally posted by towny
Organisations such as the Creation Science Movement would beg to disagree with you. This isn't the thread for a debate on creation and evolution; all I'm saying is the alternative view/explanation exists yet is not even mentioned in order to try to disprove it. They just pretend it doesn't exist. This is dishonest.
That's what I agreed with you on :p
Atomic22
02-09-2003, 19:04
segregation in schooling is still around in the uk now.. or dont they have "catholic only" schools where the kids are still taught by penguins in the towns where you lot live?
Originally posted by Atomic22
segregation in schooling is still around in the uk now.. or dont they have "catholic only" schools where the kids are still taught by penguins in the towns where you lot live?
Not only is it 'still around', it's on the increase. Catholics, Anglicans and Evangelicals all run schools, in hundreds of towns and cities up and down the UK. The reasons for this are simple. They believe that a faith dimension is an integral part of the human experience whereas the liberal elite that runs and influences education policy in this country is largely atheistic. They simply don't trust the Government and the education system to help instill good morals and discipline in their children, so they have opted out. Frankly, I am seriously considering putting my own children into a Christian school when they are old enough (won't be for a while yet though!)
Atomic22
02-09-2003, 19:32
so whats the difference with these schools and cat stevens school for muslims?
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Ok AIDS has ALWAYS been a massive problem in Africa in general anyway.
As for the statistics, I'd imagine that since apparteid ended, more rapes are actually reported.
No black woman was ever going to report a white man for rape years ago.
If you went to SA and asked people in the street if they wanted to go back 20 years, you would be lynched.
Segrgation is pointless, it breeds ignorance and intolerance.
If Muslims want to be treat differently in the US, I suggest they move to a Muslim country no one gets special treatment in the US.
Its not just in the state's though is it. I know streets in this country were its all Muslims. They keep seperate from the mainstream and nearly always speak pakistani in the open instead of the langauge native to this country. What I can't understand is if they believe in their views and ways so much why did they emergrate over here and to other westen countrys in the first place only to keep themselve's to themselve's, speak their native langauge, wear their muslim cloths even though we have different whether over here
Originally posted by Atomic22
segregation in schooling is still around in the uk now.. or dont they have "catholic only" schools where the kids are still taught by penguins in the towns where you lot live?
NOPE,
I know a church of england school not far away that must be around 90% asian
Originally posted by towny
Frankly, I am seriously considering putting my own children into a Christian school when they are old enough (won't be for a while yet though!) Yes, they'll get a better education:shrug:
Originally posted by Defiant
Its not just in the state's though is it. I know streets in this country were its all Muslims. They keep seperate from the mainstream and nearly always speak pakistani in the open instead of the langauge native to this country. What I can't understand is if they believe in their views and ways so much why did they emergrate over here and to other westen countrys in the first place only to keep themselve's to themselve's, speak their native langauge, wear their muslim cloths even though we have different whether over here
!!!!!
I don't mean to have a go at you but the level of ignorance in your post is absolutely stunning. 'They' don't do all this to annoy us, it's got to do with a number of things. Partly their culture values community far more highly than ours so naturally they want to live together. Partly it's to gain a sense of security. Ex-pat Brits tend to do exactly the same when they live overseas.
While we're on the subject of ex-pat Brits, why did so many of them emigrate to places like Saudi, Dubai, etc? Because of the promise of a better lifestyle. Because those countries needed skills that these people had and were prepared to offer enticements to them. The mass immigrations into this country were for exactly the same reason. In the late 1940s and into the 1950s, with thousands of our young men dead and thousands more still on military service, we needed people to fill certain jobs (in this case menial ones like emptying bins and driving buses) and the wage on offer promised a better life than the immigrants could expect back home. I expect they were as willing to learn English as the average Brit is to learn Arabic. Incidentally, the language you're hearing is probably Urdu. There's no such language as Pakistani.
As for clothing, I expect as many of 'them' wish to wear our clothes as you see Brits wearing robes and head cloths in Arabic countries. Would you expect your wife/girlfriend/mother/daughter to dress from head to toe in a black cover-all robe if you lived in Saudi?
I thought not.
Originally posted by towny
!!!!!
I don't mean to have a go at you but the level of ignorance in your post is absolutely stunning. 'They' don't do all this to annoy us, it's got to do with a number of things. Partly their culture values community far more highly than ours so naturally they want to live together. Partly it's to gain a sense of security. Ex-pat Brits tend to do exactly the same when they live overseas.
While we're on the subject of ex-pat Brits, why did so many of them emigrate to places like Saudi, Dubai, etc? Because of the promise of a better lifestyle. Because those countries needed skills that these people had and were prepared to offer enticements to them. The mass immigrations into this country were for exactly the same reason. In the late 1940s and into the 1950s, with thousands of our young men dead and thousands more still on military service, we needed people to fill certain jobs (in this case menial ones like emptying bins and driving buses) and the wage on offer promised a better life than the immigrants could expect back home. I expect they were as willing to learn English as the average Brit is to learn Arabic. Incidentally, the language you're hearing is probably Urdu. There's no such language as Pakistani.
As for clothing, I expect as many of 'them' wish to wear our clothes as you see Brits wearing robes and head cloths in Arabic countries. Would you expect your wife/girlfriend/mother/daughter to dress from head to toe in a black cover-all robe if you lived in Saudi?
I thought not.
B@llax, You never heard when in rome. If they wonted a new life in a new country then they should be doing just that and not pretending their still were ever. As for your bit about ex pats living in Arab countrys yes I know all about this and their secure area's. Secure area's that protect them !!!!
Your little rant about ex pats wearing their robs etc well yes I expect that in those hot countrys. Its more comforty not like over here :rolleyes:
timewarrior2001
03-09-2003, 14:38
Originally posted by towny
Not only is it 'still around', it's on the increase. Catholics, Anglicans and Evangelicals all run schools, in hundreds of towns and cities up and down the UK. The reasons for this are simple. They believe that a faith dimension is an integral part of the human experience whereas the liberal elite that runs and influences education policy in this country is largely atheistic. They simply don't trust the Government and the education system to help instill good morals and discipline in their children, so they have opted out. Frankly, I am seriously considering putting my own children into a Christian school when they are old enough (won't be for a while yet though!)
Ermm theres a small point missing, you dont have to be Catholic to go to a Catholic school, so its not really segregated is it?
I dont knwo about the other religious schools, but Catholics is definately not segregated. Load sof my friends went to Catholic schools and non of them were from religious families let alone catholic ones.
Dave Stones
03-09-2003, 15:07
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Ermm theres a small point missing, you dont have to be Catholic to go to a Catholic school, so its not really segregated is it?
I dont knwo about the other religious schools, but Catholics is definately not segregated. Load sof my friends went to Catholic schools and non of them were from religious families let alone catholic ones.
i went to a church of england primary school and i wasnt church of england... we just had to go do things at the church once or twice a year, nativity, harvest festival etc etc. never did me any harm.
Originally posted by Dave Stones
i went to a church of england primary school and i wasnt church of england... we just had to go do things at the church once or twice a year, nativity, harvest festival etc etc. never did me any harm. Damn straight!
Atomic22
03-09-2003, 18:20
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Ermm theres a small point missing, you dont have to be Catholic to go to a Catholic school, so its not really segregated is it?
I dont knwo about the other religious schools, but Catholics is definately not segregated. Load sof my friends went to Catholic schools and non of them were from religious families let alone catholic ones.
yes the roman catholic schools in our city only take catholics , everyone else has to apply to other schools
Originally posted by Defiant
B@llax, You never heard when in rome.
'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' is a saying popularised in a song, not an article of international law.
If they wonted a new life in a new country then they should be doing just that and not pretending their still were ever.
I'm not sure how wearing your favourite clothes, living next door to your family and friends, eating your favourite food and speaking your first language constitutes pretending you're not in Britain. Do you wear trainers, eat hamburgers and watch blockbuster movies because you want to pretend you're in America?
I've got a great idea. Why don't we order every Indian, Chinese, Greek, Italian and French restaurant to close down? After all, if they live here they should cook British food, not wierd foreign muck. Or is it ok for them to import the bits of their culture that you like the taste of?
As for your bit about ex pats living in Arab countrys yes I know all about this and their secure area's. Secure area's that protect them !!!!
You're right of course. Living together with familiar people is very reassuring when those around you appear to be so hostile. :rolleyes:
Your little rant about ex pats wearing their robs etc well yes I expect that in those hot countrys. Its more comforty not like over here :rolleyes:
Who are you to say what clothes someone finds more comfortable? Why can't you just accept that some people want to live their life in a different way to you? They were accepted into the UK as they were because that suited the UK at the time. We can hardly start demanding they change their ways now.
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Ermm theres a small point missing, you dont have to be Catholic to go to a Catholic school, so its not really segregated is it?
I dont knwo about the other religious schools, but Catholics is definately not segregated. Load sof my friends went to Catholic schools and non of them were from religious families let alone catholic ones.
A good point. But as I said, the purpose of setting up Christian schools is not to segregate children, it's to address the perceived lack of moral direction in the State education system. Whether or not a Catholic school's pupils are all Catholics or not, the ethos of the school is a Christian one. Dave Stones went to a C of E school which clearly had a relationship with its local Anglican church. Taking part in those couple of services will have introduced him to a Christian moral viewpoint, but it's apparently not done him any harm...
Originally posted by towny
'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' is a saying popularised in a song, not an article of international law.
You forgot the topic. Well I haven't I believe in intergration and not segregation!!
I'm not sure how wearing your favourite clothes, living next door to your family and friends, eating your favourite food and speaking your first language constitutes pretending you're not in Britain.
Not helping when you are either is it :rolleyes:
Do you wear trainers, eat hamburgers and watch blockbuster movies because you want to pretend you're in America?
Yes and so do most other western country's. Thats were we live and intergrated too;)
I've got a great idea. Why don't we order every Indian, Chinese, Greek, Italian and French restaurant to close down? After all, if they live here they should cook British food, not wierd foreign muck. Or is it ok for them to import the bits of their culture that you like the taste of?.
Why do that are you saying none of those people's have intergrated becauase I know for t afact they have. I have mates from other cultures that I get on great with. Infact some believe the ones that dont intergrate help create racists
You're right of course. Living together with familiar people is very reassuring when those around you appear to be so hostile.
Appear hostile are you mad. You forgot a few weeks back when one of those compounds got blown up by the fanatic's
Who are you to say what clothes someone finds more comfortable? Why can't you just accept that some people want to live their life in a different way to you? They were accepted into the UK as they were because that suited the UK at the time. We can hardly start demanding they change their ways now.
I'm not saying what people wear they wear those type of cloths because their comfortable in hot country's. Get it
Originally posted by Defiant
You forgot the topic. Well I haven't I believe in intergration and not segregation!!
I didn't forget the topic. But you're right, we're going down a blind alley so if I participate in this thread after this post I'm making now, it won't be to continue this line of discussion any further. Feel free to have the last word.
Why do that are you saying none of those people's have intergrated becauase I know for t afact they have. I have mates from other cultures that I get on great with. Infact some believe the ones that dont intergrate help create racists
Not saying that at all. Some have 'integrated', some remain 'segregated' by their own choice. You appear to be suggesting that people expressing a culture other than your own while in the UK is unacceptable to you. Forgive me if I have misunderstood you, but if I have not, you are IMO betraying a racist attitude. Saying you have friends from other cultures does not prove you do not have racist attitudes. And if people wishing to live in their own communities has made you feel this way, that is still your problem, not theirs.
Appear hostile are you mad. You forgot a few weeks back when one of those compounds got blown up by the fanatic's
I was being mildly ironic, but as you didn't get it I'll spell it out for you. You said ex-pats live in segregated compounds in order to feel safer. I agree with you. They do. I am saying perhaps some immigrants into the UK live in their own communities because they want to feel safer too. Your opinion of their lifestyle could quite easily be construed as threatening. Geddit?
I'm not saying what people wear they wear those type of cloths because their comfortable in hot country's. Get it
No I don't get it. I doubt the good Pakistani community of Salford gets your opinion either. Do you seriously mean to suggest that there are hundreds of Pakistanis wandering around the UK shivering in the cold that haven't realised, if only they swapped their favourite clothes for a nice pair of jeans, they would feel oh so much better? They continue to wear the clothes of their choice because they want to and because they are obviously warm enough. And frankly it's none of your business anyway.
Originally posted by towny
Not saying that at all. Some have 'integrated', some remain 'segregated' by their own choice. You appear to be suggesting that people expressing a culture other than your own
Nope, Not "my" culture its British culture and I and many others dont wish to see if drain away over the years. I have friends that have moved to Spain. One has started helping out on a farm till he gets sorted and learning to speak spanish. He's intergrating. He wonted to live other their and doesn't expect to carry on living the same way he did while living over here. Commen sense really.
Again when in rome
I have been pondering the idea that British expats (lets say in Saudi) don't integrate any more than some (lets say Pakistanis) in the UK.
There is a major difference between the two groups of people. The British in Saudi are very likely not staying for ever and will be coming back to the UK eventually. Thus there is no need to integrate into the local culture as they are mere visitors there.
(you can see where this is going........)
In contrast, the Pakistanis in the UK are here to stay. That , in my mind, means that they should make every effort to integrate. Just as my parents did (Latvians).
philip.j.fry
03-09-2003, 21:19
Originally posted by morris
i went to a catholic school and they only took catholics.
Mine (it being a Catholic school) processed all applications from Catholic families first, if when this processing had finished there were spaces left they began accepting applications from non-Catholic families. I believe though that applicants did have to be a member of a religion (being baptised for example was probably enough). After that I think it was down to surname (alphabetical order), I only just got in because my surname begins with P and somebody else pulled out. :)
From my experience, I don't think it being a religeous school made it any more moral than any other. It can also cause problems, for example, imagine devout catholics trying to teach about contraception :D
Dave Stones
03-09-2003, 22:09
Originally posted by towny
Dave Stones went to a C of E school which clearly had a relationship with its local Anglican church. Taking part in those couple of services will have introduced him to a Christian moral viewpoint, but it's apparently not done him any harm...
that i did and no it didnt do me any harm... so far as i can tell anyway.
back when i was that old i didnt know about differenct churches etc. i assumed everyone was like me...
Originally posted by Ramrod
I have been pondering the idea that British expats (lets say in Saudi) don't integrate any more than some (lets say Pakistanis) in the UK.
There is a major difference between the two groups of people. The British in Saudi are very likely not staying for ever and will be coming back to the UK eventually. Thus there is no need to integrate into the local culture as they are mere visitors there.
(you can see where this is going........)
In contrast, the Pakistanis in the UK are here to stay. That , in my mind, means that they should make every effort to integrate. Just as my parents did (Latvians).
I'll go along with the idea that if you're staying long term you might want to pay more attention to the culture you've moved in with. However, how far should that integration go? Without wishing to reduce it to a trivial list of items, should they give up their language, perhaps? Or their food? clothes? Their strong sense of community? At what point would you consider them to have achieved an acceptable level of integration?
Originally posted by towny
I'll go along with the idea that if you're staying long term you might want to pay more attention to the culture you've moved in with. However, how far should that integration go? Without wishing to reduce it to a trivial list of items, should they give up their language, perhaps? Or their food? clothes? Their strong sense of community? At what point would you consider them to have achieved an acceptable level of integration? Good question. Not thought about it like that......
Lets see.....we don't wear our traditional Latvian clothing unless we are in private and in some sort of celebration (hell, I've never worn it) but that dosn't really count as Latvians in Latvia hardly ever wear traditional clothing. Food is eaten in private...ah! we wouldn't slaughter a goat in the street (as I recall is sometimes done here by some non English people) even if it was a tradition of ours. Language is spoken in private, often English is spoken in public in order to 'blend in'. It was a matter of pride to learn to speak English as soon as possible and as well as possible!
The sense of community was/is preserved by regular get-togethers behind closed doors/in country mansions owned by the community. We have about half a dozen in the UK, we just don't shout about it. An acceptable level of integration (imo) is when you don't (or don't feel the need) to live in extended communities that take over whole neighbourhoods. You actually learn to speak the the language (if I get one more person in as a patient who's lived here 30 odd years and still needs a translator.....:afire:
If my wife went to a country where it is normal for women to be covered and did not cover up, we would expect her to be spat at/propositioned/arrested. This is a liberal country but I think that it is going too far for a woman to wear a burka (sp?) and expect not to be stared at/ commented on.
All a bit confusing really. East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet:( ...as someone said.
Originally posted by Defiant
Its not just in the state's though is it. I know streets in this country were its all Muslims. They keep seperate from the mainstream and nearly always speak pakistani in the open instead of the langauge native to this country. What I can't understand is if they believe in their views and ways so much why did they emergrate over here and to other westen countrys in the first place only to keep themselve's to themselve's, speak their native langauge, wear their muslim cloths even though we have different whether over here
the reasons are quite clear the reasons they emigrate are to have improved financial stability a better education and work to provide for there children or immediate family
and i do believe most try and mix and do speak english ofcourse people will alway shout out about the minority :rolleyes:
Originally posted by morris
i had to work in southall when they had that train crash and i did'nt see a single white person, even the sign in the train station which tells you what station you arrive at is in there lingo. it was quite weird even the tramps were asian.
i do take offense to your wording in the above post especially the word 'tramps' please refrain from causing offense to anyone in this manner thank you
Originally posted by morris
i live in Reading where we have a good mix of races with no bnp or racial attacks like a lot of other areas in england but i have never seen anything like southall in my life and it was weird being there, i felt out of place. i'm not giving anyone or anywhere sh*t i was making a observasion. kronas your name causes me offense can you stop posting.
you know what i meant :rolleyes:
as long as your not harbouring (behind those words) racial tension then thats fine as its an observation so you say.......
towny said'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' is a saying popularised in a song, not an article of international law.
That's the view that I have allways had, it's nothing to do with being racist. I can just about remember back to the 70's when some Asian groups were comlaining about having to wear crash helmets whilst riding a motorbike, they wanted to continue to wear turbans.
I would say that's no problem, go and do it in a country that allows it.
Originally posted by morris
i'm waiting kronas!
it was quite weird even the tramps were asian.
what or whom were you refering to ?
Originally posted by morris
:dozey: tramps, homeless people.
ok wrong end of the stick the way you worded it my bad
resume debate :p
Originally posted by Escapee
That's the view that I have allways had, it's nothing to do with being racist. I can just about remember back to the 70's when some Asian groups were comlaining about having to wear crash helmets whilst riding a motorbike, they wanted to continue to wear turbans.
I would say that's no problem, go and do it in a country that allows it.
Good idea. Oh, look, they're already doing it. It's *this* one!
Our leaders profess to this being a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society (which it is, given the number of invasions, waves of immigration and so on that have happened over the past thousands of years), so we should have *respect* for the beliefs of those who we have living here.
Originally posted by Graham
Good idea. Oh, look, they're already doing it. It's *this* one!
Our leaders profess to this being a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society (which it is, given the number of invasions, waves of immigration and so on that have happened over the past thousands of years), so we should have *respect* for the beliefs of those who we have living here.
WRONG,
I think its the general public of this country that should be respected and our views and belief's. They should be bending over backwards to intergrate into this country this country they choose to live in!!!!
Originally posted by kronas
i do take offense to your wording in the above post especially the word 'tramps' please refrain from causing offense to anyone in this manner thank you Don't take offence kronas. He meant tramps as in homeless people, not tramps as in asians.....
Originally posted by Ramrod
Don't take offence kronas. He meant tramps as in homeless people, not tramps as in asians.....
i gathered that read post 69
Originally posted by Defiant
WRONG,
I think its the general public of this country that should be respected and our views and belief's. They should be bending over backwards to intergrate into this country this country they choose to live in!!!! Damn, *****n right! My parents did, I did! This country gave us a home and shelter, the least that immigrants can do is try to integrate!
Originally posted by morris
no it was my bad wording of it. you see kronas can look at woman while driving past her and with out talking to her he can tell if she's a tramp (not homeless). shazam.:)
lol thats not true morris :p
Originally posted by Defiant
Our leaders profess to this being a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society (which it is, given the number of invasions, waves of immigration and so on that have happened over the past thousands of years), so we should have *respect* for the beliefs of those who we have living here.
I think its the general public of this country that should be respected and our views and belief's. They should be bending over backwards to intergrate into this country this country they choose to live in!!!!
Of course. You're absolutely right, how stupid of me.
"You're a Muslim? Sorry, we're Christian in this country, you'll have to convert."
"You originally came from India? Sorry, you're going to have to support the England Cricket Team now"
"You're black? Sorry, we're white here, you're going to have to change your skin colour..."
Hmm, didn't the BNP just win another council seat a few days ago?
Originally posted by Graham
Originally posted by Defiant
Of course. You're absolutely right, how stupid of me.
"You're a Muslim? Sorry, we're Christian in this country, you'll have to convert."
"You originally came from India? Sorry, you're going to have to support the England Cricket Team now"
"You're black? Sorry, we're white here, you're going to have to change your skin colour..."
Hmm, didn't the BNP just win another council seat a few days ago?
Well first of your going to quote someone do it right. I only put this part,
I think its the general public of this country that should be respected and our views and belief's. They should be bending over backwards to intergrate into this country this country they choose to live in!!!!
Second what the hell are you going on about. Whats intergrating into this country got to do with all that crap
And yes the BNP are doing well and going to get better if things carry on
Originally posted by Defiant
Well first of your going to quote someone do it right. I only put this part,
Yes, I know, that's why I made sure the other bit appeared in a separate "quote box", so it would be obvious you didn't write it.
Second what the hell are you going on about. Whats intergrating into this country got to do with all that crap
Those are *ALL* things that have been proposed by various people or groups for how minorities and immigrants should behave to "help them to integrate" into British Society!
And yes the BNP are doing well and going to get better if things carry on
What, like letting in all those immigrants and asylum seekers who everyone knows are only going to sponge of the state and steal jobs from hardworking Brits and use up our NHS resources that they haven't paid for and (insert typical tabloid frothing at the mouth here).
Lets not forget the older ones too that will never have to work or paid any moneys to the goverment over here
Originally posted by Graham
[i]
"You're a Muslim? Sorry, we're Christian in this country, you'll have to convert."
"You originally came from India? Sorry, you're going to have to support the England Cricket Team now"
"You're black? Sorry, we're white here, you're going to have to change your skin colour..."
Not quite, just don't rub your religion in our noses, India has a perfectly good cricket team anyway and erm ... changing skin colour - what are you on about?
Originally posted by Ramrod
Not quite, just don't rub your religion in our noses
im not a supporter of religion but isnt religion almost everywhere you switch on the tv its there christianity (usally) they dont rub there religion in to us they keep it in there community and there dress sense dictates that, they are normal people :rolleyes:
Originally posted by kronas
im not a supporter of religion but isnt religion almost everywhere you switch on the tv its there christianity (usally) they dont rub there religion in to us they keep it in there community and there dress sense dictates that, they are normal people :rolleyes:
You've obviously never been to Birmingham city centre on a Saturday afternoon, or Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, London. There are more Muslim evangelists on the streets there than Christians.
However I'm not just a Christian, I am a supporter of freedom of cultural and religious expression. I passionately believe Muslims are mistaken in their beliefs, but I will defend their right to express them and to offer to share them to anyone willing to listen.
Originally posted by towny
You've obviously never been to Birmingham city centre on a Saturday afternoon, or Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, London. There are more Muslim evangelists on the streets there than Christians.
so ?
in a town near me there has been regular canvassing for new followers of jesus so why dont we stop them all why just muslims ?
they arent the only ones to do this.....
Originally posted by towny
However I'm not just a Christian, I am a supporter of freedom of cultural and religious expression.
good
Originally posted by towny
I passionately believe Muslims are mistaken in their beliefs
how ? please explain
Originally posted by towny
but I will defend their right to express them and to offer to share them to anyone willing to listen.
so what is the problem then they are just doing what other religions do :confused:
Originally posted by kronas
in a town near me there has been regular canvassing for new followers of jesus so why dont we stop them all why just muslims ?
I don't think we should stop any religion from expressing itself on the streets. I think you're misunderstanding me, and in turn I may have misunderstood your previous post :spin:
I thought you were saying you thought muslims keep themselves to themselves and don't 'rub their religion in our faces'. I was saying that they do 'rub it in', if by 'rub it in' you mean evangelise on street corners. Have a look if you're ever in Birmingham or London.
how ? please explain
Gladly, although it would be way off topic in this thread. If you want to know, PM me or better still, start a new thread called 'do all roads lead to God?' or something like that.
so what is the problem then they are just doing what other religions do :confused:
No problem at all, I think we were just at cross-purposes (see above)
Originally posted by towny
I thought you were saying you thought muslims keep themselves to themselves and don't 'rub their religion in our faces'. I was saying that they do 'rub it in', if by 'rub it in' you mean evangelise on street corners. Have a look if you're ever in Birmingham or London.
yep wires crossed i didnt mean muslims dont do it im just saying if jesus followers do it why cant muslims ?
i know the majorty proberbly follow jesus but still they(muslims) tolerate it so why cant we allow them to express there religion
i was more commenting on ramrod's comments really about the above
Originally posted by Ramrod
... changing skin colour - what are you on about?
It was, allegedly, a quote from a BNP candidate to the effect that "Michael Jackson's done it, so why can't the rest of them", although I can't find a link to a source.
Originally posted by Graham
It was, allegedly, a quote from a BNP candidate to the effect that "Michael Jackson's done it, so why can't the rest of them", although I can't find a link to a source. Well thats just f*cked up!:rolleyes:
No wonder they can't be taken seriously!
Originally posted by kronas
i was more commenting on ramrod's comments really about the above and I was commenting on stuff like the occasional slaughter of sheep or goats in the street, which may be perfectly normal in some countries but raises a few eyebrows here. I'm also none too happy with outspoken hook handed clerics spouting off about the evils of our way of life especially whilst living in council housing and probably getting benefits!
Originally posted by Ramrod
and I was commenting on stuff like the occasional slaughter of sheep or goats in the street
never seen that happen in public :shrug:
Originally posted by Ramrod
I'm also none too happy with outspoken hook handed clerics spouting off about the evils of our way of life especially whilst living in council housing and probably getting benefits!
TBH the muslim religion is the cleanist in terms of what you can and cant do whilst others like to allow this and that (such as alcohol) its the truth
again you know my position on religion but i wont stop spouting the truth i cover all sides of an issue
Lord Nikon
09-09-2003, 02:37
The best answer to this was made in an anti racism poster I saw a couple of years back.
The poster showed 9 packs of blood and had the following caption...
"you are a racist. Your child has been injured in an accident, without a transfusion it will die, Pick the pack from the white person......
Underneath we are ALL the same colour"
Essentially, stop judging based on skin colour, religious and cultural beliefs. we are all the same essentially, Integration removes boundaries. Segregation introduces them. Instead of "Us" it becomes "Them and us".
Originally posted by Lord Nikon
Underneath we are ALL the same colour"
This actually isn't quite true !
There are racial and ethnic differences in Blood type, composition and inherited alien antigens, although to be fair it is only usually important when dealing with rare blood groups.
Lord Nikon
09-09-2003, 13:56
Maybe but the inherited antigens is a matter of geographical ancestry, environmental conditions leading to the antigen development, for example dark skinned races building up more seratonin in response to greater amounts of UV exposure, Eskimo people building a greater tolerance to cold etc.
Strip away the antigens and the basic chemical composition is the same.
Originally posted by Lord Nikon
Maybe but the inherited antigens is a matter of geographical ancestry, environmental conditions leading to the antigen development, for example dark skinned races building up more seratonin in response to greater amounts of UV exposure, Eskimo people building a greater tolerance to cold etc.
Strip away the antigens and the basic chemical composition is the same.
I agree, but the antigens can't be 'stripped away' and sometimes can prove fatal to a recipient !
So the basic premise is correct that ethnic background is important to blood typing.
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